Players jumped to bizarre conclusion, what do?

>>53310386
Anyone? Bumping for advice.

>>53310386
Let them, if they actually put thought into it other than "inject with venom" maybe have it give them some benefit. Might not be the final answer but a tool that can help keep themselves alive and give them an edge.

>>53310386
Perhaps throw them some more clues about the villain that will prove to them it won't work? Or at worst, I think just telling them "this won't work" out of game isn't unacceptable in such situation. Or hell, why not simply make it work? Sounds like quite a creative way to beat the guy.

>>53310386
Let the hydra venom do damage to him that be can't regen (other damage he still can). Reward that creativity, even if it is misplaced so the players keep thinking instead of just rolling dice.

>>53310386
off the top of my head:
PCs identify an agent under the command of BBEG who has similar powers of regeneration, and OOC tell them its a perfect opportunity for a test run. enemy agent then laughs their attempted poisoning off; reveal "THAT DOESNT WORK ON ___!"

or maybe
BBEG's agent is spotted and followed to evil base where PC's witness evil rituals (temple of doom style) where BBEG rejuvenates/recharges. this ritual includes exposure to all sorts of nasty toxins/acids, but ultimately the villain emerges unscathed.

>>53311162
I have been providing clues. Not enough as yet to really figure it out, but enough that they can figure out where to start looking.

>>53311132
>>53311162
>>53311182
Randomly making up a solution because you saw a poison somewhere else is neither creative nor intelligent, and it shits all over internal coherence. What you guys are essentially recommending me is to quantum ogre a solution, that whatever dumbfuck idea that someone comes up with and commits to WILL be right in the end.

>>53311267
Best solution is first half


Also what's the actual secret?

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>>53310386

Let them, they don't know what he can do, and a powerful poison is useful against a healing factor power. Omega Red can only really stand against Wolverine because Wolvie has to keep healing from his literal poison aura, and it's also the reason Wolverine got a healing power boost in the 90s, his adamantium was poisonous, so he was always healing keeping it from killing him. Worst case scenario, they're using poisoned weapons to deal him slightly extra damage, meaning he'll run a bit quicker.

Just remember, while they're hunting down a hydra rancher, the bad guys are still doing their thing. If the PCs don't deal with it and spend a month looking for hydras, that's one month further on the bad guy plan timetable. I mean, they get too distracted monster hunting and then you get pic related.

>>53311273
Let them use it and see that it isn't working as intended. Maybe it will give them a little more of an edge the time after the next, but that's about it.

>>53310386
Onehving's ONE SECRET WEAKNESS is clearly not hydra venom. That doesn't make it useless. Give them a middle result.

He takes continual damage from the hydra venom, but it's not enough to overwhelm his regeneration, just slow it down some. It'll have to combine with something else, maybe even multiple somethings to take him down.

If you need to relay this, maybe give them a beastmaster who thinks he can handle a hydra, and have him ask what exactly it is that they need the venom for, since he's not in the business of providing supplies to assassins. If they tell him, he straight out says he's not sure the venom will be enough for something like that. If they don't tell him, he doesn't work with them.

>>53311273
This. I've dealt with this kind of situation, and fuck that.

The DM shouldn't be intentionally obtuse or dickish to the players where mystery is involved, but that doesn't mean you should just hold their hand and let whatever they say be the right answer for fear of making them upset.

The one time this happened to me, I tried dropping hints to the other, correct solution to the problem, and when those were flat out ignored, I left bright neon signs stating "THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE SOLUTION!" that were also ignored. When it came time for the conflict, the players were wrong, and it left them at such a disadvantage they needed to flee.

One of the players had the gall to approach me and say "You should have just made the solution what we thought it was." It was even more infuriating because he's the other DM in the group and he's usually a pretty smart guy about it, but when he becomes a player he falls to the same selfishness and self-absorbtion that eventually made me leave the group.

>>53311273
It's not that it's right you fucking spaz it's that it does something. Not the answer they were looking for to actually beat him but something that can help.

>>53310386
Depends what the actual solution is.

If the solution is "he's cursed" then fair enough. Make him weakened by the poison to his deathbed, but still alive. Then they need something to finish him off.

If it's a different sort of poison, run with it.

Essentially, don't cave to them for the hell of us, but don't rule them out either. Creative solutions are a way forward.

>>53311294
I try to read every pre written adventure i can for inspiration. that and i've read a lot of comics: which are good inspiration for pacing/intrigue/villainous people in general

Don't listen to all the retards telling you to cave in and rewrite your villain.

Let them figure it out for themselves that the venom is useless. Just make sure you give them enough time and hints to realise how retarded they're being.

Hell, have the venom act like some healing catalyst to the villain. Now he feels even stronger, and he's off to get more hydra venom to regenerate even faster.

Alternatively, you can turn the hydra venom into a weakness through a different way. Perhaps he starts getting addicted to hydra venom, requires absurd amounts to keep up his regeneration rate for his new plans. Maybe the players can now ambush the villain while he's hunting hydras.

>>53311294
The actual secret is wrapped up in the setting cosmology. The Gods that run the universe as the players know it can't create ex nihilo, and they were themselves created by what was basically an Illuvatar to the Valar sort of relationship with the actual creator deity. They do, however, have acess to colossal amounts of raw material/energy, most of which is divided up into several "pools" aligned with the system's magical alignment charts.

Along the way (previous campaign) one of the Gods got killed, and his pools of stuff have been laying dormant for the past few hundred years. Bad guy, without fully realizing what he's doing, has been connecting to the now effectively unguarded pool of near infinite life energy. He can't maintain the connection indefinitely, and is searching for the more thaumaterigically inclined pool that would let him attach to this stuff indefinitely; as long as he's connected though, he's pretty much unkillable, as you would need to effectively dish out enough damage to murder a few universes to get through the reserves in the pool.

Players either need to sever his connection or at the very least keep him from repeating his ritual preparations and strike when he's not connected to it.

>>53311448
not to be critical but that sends the whole thing off the rails almost as much as the 'lol sandbox it' solution

>>53311479
Neat

>>53311479
What are the sort of conflicts where he doesn't dive in?

Also your players are straight fucked if they're on a time limit and are trying to milk hydras.

>>53310386
I would say allow it? Your villain doesn't have to die from it, but just allow it because the players are putting a lot of effort into it, and I'm of the believe that effort and roleplaying should be rewarded. Regardless if its retarded.

You gotta admit from their point of view, if an enemy has regeneration, the logical conclusion to its weakness is venom to cancel out the regeneration.

>>53311581
>What are the sort of conflicts where he doesn't dive in?
Ones that cycle out of line with his astrological signage, which is an important part of magic in system; our villain is moon-gibbous waning aligned. Connecting with a god's reservoir isn't easy, even for a high level mage like our villain, he only attempts to do so at the period of his peak, i.e. when there's a waning gibbous moon out. He can cover himself for a bit over 19 days, which doesn't quite leave him protected the entire time. He tends to back down when he thinks a conflict will extend to past the point of his invulnerability where he can't scurry back to somewhere where he'll have the right materials and some guards to do the next ritual to re-access. (Which takes about 12 hours, to perform, it's not something he can reach out and do at the spur of the moment.)

>>53310386
Why shouldn't it work? You told them hydra venom is nasty stuff. That was the hint they needed to know that hydra venom will work.

>>53311448
>Hell, have the venom act like some healing catalyst to the villain.
This is even worse advice.

>>53311701
It's nasty stuff. It isn't nearly as nasty as being literally cut in half, which they've directly seen him recover from.

>>53311631
The problem with that is, if they're rewarded too much and it doesn't blow up in their face at all, they'll believe they're right.

Then, instead of dealing with or even LOOKING for the actual problem, >>53311479 they'll just think "KEEP MILKING HYDRAS!" and then they'll be fucked.

Also, using poison to cancel out regen does sound logical, until you actually read the op and see they've literally cut this fucker in half before and watched him get back up.

That's more regen than poison can burn through. There's also the major problem that the players aren't just convinced hydra venom will be helpful: They're convinced it's his ONE WEAKNESS.

As long as they remain convinced, they're not searching for the real source of his nigh-immortality, which fucks them in the long run. They need to get slapped down for this, and the sooner the better. The longer they're allowed to continue, secure in their incorrect conclusions, the more bitter they will be when it turns out they're wrong.

>>53311312
>Let them, they don't know what he can do, and a powerful poison is useful against a healing factor power.
>>53311333
>Let them use it and see that it isn't working as intended. Maybe it will give them a little more of an edge the time after the next, but that's about it.

>>53311370
This guy said it best, though.
A beastmaster who can confidently extract poison is going to know that the poison won't kill the BBEG.
Poison doesn't kill trolls, does it?

>>53311273
I understand your anger at the suggestion that you make whatever the players come up with right.
On a trap or puzzle, it's good advice.
For major plot or world building stuff, less so.

>Randomly making up a solution because you saw a poison somewhere else is neither creative nor intelligent, and it shits all over internal coherence.
But this makes you seem like an ass.
It is creative.
It is intelligent.
It is a good idea.
It just isn't enough.

Getting mad at your players for fixating on their one idea is stupid, that's gonna happen.
Getting mad at your players for not figuring out the one answer you have planned is stupid, that's gonna happen if you make the solution one possible thing that is secret. That's one reason to avoid doing that.
Getting mad at your players for disrespecting internal coherence because you don't like their chain of reasoning is stupid and makes you look like an ass.

>>53310386
Have it work as well as it should. If his regen is <6 a round, then it has effectively stopped his regeneration while it's in effect. They still have to stab him to death.

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>>53310386
Really simple, have them encounter him again before they are done. It can be as simple as him out to get coffee or whatever. But have them encounter him soon, and have the hydra come up, or have them have a single dose of the venom. Watch as he laughs it off and finishes his coffee and proceeds to smack around the PCs until they run away, or he leaves to do actual business.

They are then off the wrong track.

Players are morons that chase the shiny. Take away the shine and they have to try to think again.

>>53311790
No, it isn't a good idea. It is a lot less than things they've already seen him recover from, and it's been completely absent from things they've seen him run scared from. If they took about 2 minutes to think this through, they'd realize it has more holes than swiss cheese.

And I'm not getting mad because they're fixating on one idea; it's that it's an idea they already have the information in hand to know that it won't work. It's a really, really dumb idea.

>>53311822
His regeneration is essentially infinite unless he can be severed from his power source.

>>53311842
>Players are morons that chase the shiny.
This.
Literally anything you mention or include can become a Chekov's Gun that is *obviously* intended to be important to them.

>>53311370
What about this one, OP? This one seemed good answer.

>>53311865
>His regeneration is essentially infinite
Not it isn't. If it takes minutes or him to recover from being bisected, instead of instantaneous.

Or you've already violated the information you've given us.

I'm not sure why they're even trying to kill him. Unless he's also got infinite strength, it'd be easier to subdue or capture him than kill him. Just chain him up and drop him in the ocean somewhere.

>>53311865
It sounds like you have a problem, OP.

The problem is that you are running a game where you can't kill your players, and they subconsciously know that.

The only long-term solution is that, when you start a game, you let the players know that if they get something wrong and fuck up they WILL die and the story will be over. You won't be saving them. Otherwise it will just create butthurt.

For a temporary solution to what you already have going, I suggest a Rival for Glory.

The rival is also trying to kill the big bad and steal the glory. Make the players hate him/them. Have the rival get wind of the hydra poison plot and steal it, either by executing it first or literally stealing the poison -- whatever you think is better for your dudes.

Make sure that they are in hot pursuit as the rival is about to face the BBEG. Make them think that if they are quick enough they could get the poison back, like some sort of macguffin.

Make them too late, and then let them watch the BBEG fucking annihilate the rival in brutal fashion. That way they are safe, they see it won't work, and the one who pays the price is someone they hate anyway.

>>53311479
You realise that your players think it's hydra venom because of the particular context of the hydra venom encounter and the way you said e.g. "hydra venom is nasty stuff" right? Do you also realise that your players are not invested in the magical god pool setting fluff as you are?

What 'hints' have you given them that this is the answer?

>>53311910
Maybe do that exactly then, have them receive info about an enchanted, hydra venom crossbow or something, in a deep dungeon.

After fighting through and getting it, have the BBEG show up, get shot by it, laugh it off, then beat their asses. Stops them going too far down the rabbit hole, but doesnt punish them too hard, and they get a shiny weapon for non boss enemies.

>>53312002
You can always kill your players and should do it at least once in your time with a gaming group.

>>53311910
True but that's also a communication problem on the DM's part.

>>53311991
I meant infinite in scope, not in speed. My apologies if that was unclear. You won't ever be able to do "enough" damage to kill him conventionally.

As for the capture option, that's theoretically open, but it's not easy to capture a powerful mage who rarely leaves his cohort of bodyguards.

>>53312002
That's just wrong. I've TPKED them before, and we're on second characters for two of our group, and a fourth for one of them. I just want to head off the inevitable whining when I waste something much more valuable, their time after they spend several sessions on this hare-brained plan.

>>53312012
Yes, looking back, I do realize this. But I expected them to realize that they were able to have a guy hang on for a few pulses to get an antivenom down his throat without dying, and that's something that can't be said for the level of damage they've seen Onehving absorb.

>>53312043
I HAVE communicated to them, pointing out that the venom was absent in cases where Onehving clearly was averse to fighting. Straight up reminded them of that, GM to player. Short of grabbing each of them by the collars and shaking them while I yell, I'm not sure how to get it through their heads.

>>53312133
How have you dropped hints as to the real solution?

>>53312112
>My apologies if that was unclear. You won't ever be able to do "enough" damage to kill him conventionally.
This is something dumb I always hated about regeneration powers.

Worst comes to worst, just chop him up and throw the bits into small metal boxes.

>>53311273
The problem with puzzles that only you know the solution to is that only you think like you. Maybe you've been dropping hints, maybe they have no idea they're hints, but to you they're obvious as fuck.
What I learned from my party spending two real hours on a very simple puzzle (the floor was invisible), is that just have the third idea fucking work.

>>53312112
>I just want to head off the inevitable whining when I waste something much more valuable, their time after they spend several sessions on this hare-brained plan.
Your options are:
1. Railroad them away from it.
2. OOC tell them to knock it off.
3. Change your setting to accommodate.
4. Kill them.

That's it. Pick one and run with it.

>>53312162
I have dropped hints as to both questions of timing (Every time he has run away has been at a night-time fight or skirmish, and I've always mentioned the phase of the moon; furthermore, astrology is a big part of the game system, everyone's got some phase that they're strong or weak on, not just our baddie), and a few other hints as to his connection to our dead winter god; but those are right now just on the level of they know Onehving is doing SOMETHING with the old deity's artifacts and accoutrements, not exactly what, although they do have some leads as to where to find more information.

>>53310386
If they reached the point where they've spent money in the process hiring beastmaster for the venom before you could explain that the venom won't help, then it's a bit late to just go "the venom didn't work too bad :^(". If you don't want to just tell them to drop it OOC, then go along with it, but get that shit wrapped up asap. Don't have a whole encounter, just a series of perimeter watching and sneaking up on a hydra. Maybe tying it down gulliver's travels style as the venom is extracted and getting the fuck outta there before it breaks the net for some last minute excitement.

Don't tell them the poison doesn't work and all that effort was wasted, pretend the poison was a good idea. After all, it's not like it was a bad idea, it just wasn't part of your plan. The player experience should really be taken into consideration, and finding out all their effort was for nothing isn't a great experience.

Then to get them back on track, you could have the beastmaster ask why they're having him risk his neck(s?) for hydra poison. A weaker, cheaper poison gets the job done most of the time, do they need to slay an (insert creature with similar regeneration here) or something? The bit about the creature gives them the opportunity to say "something like that" if they don't feel like answering honestly for whatever reason, which leaves you with more chances for him to remark "the poison's not enough on its own, you need a specialized wizard too" or whatever to point them towards whatever the fuck you have planned.

Plus afterwards, they'll have some powerful leftover poison that you can shoehorn into something in the future, or let them sell it for a high price to alleviate some of the cost of their little tangent.

>>53310386
What reason do they have to think that hydra venom is this guys weakness other than it's dangerous? Does he have some kinda connection to hydras?

>>53312214
Dog, that's obtuse. I get why your players are pursuing the more immediate idea: they figure they'll find out the deal with all the ancient god stuff in time as they play.

Let them try the hydra venom thing and get #rekt for it. It's the only way.

>>53312112
>not in speed
If the speed is any number, any number -6 should help. Stop or slow the regeneration.

Just hand-waiving it and saying it's not going to work, is dumb for any opponent you want the players to kill. If there's only one specific way to kill the BBEG, you're dangerously close to railroading.

>>53311670
Autism; the plot

>>53311865
>It is a lot less than things they've already seen him recover from
One dose, sure.
What about several dozen doses of "6 damage a pulse " poison?

But otherwise, I get you.

>>53312463
That was my thinking too.
>Why wont my players accept my advanced autism?

>>53311670
So the way to beat him is just "wait until 2-3 days before the full moon and kill him like normal?" The hydra poison thing sounds more fun.

Picturing OP screaming at his players while running through a flip chart of phases of the moon.

>>53312594
>>53312463
His players are enjoying it though. I also think its too advanced for my taste, but if they enjoy it then no biggy. Amirite?

>>53312928
i dunno, if they're not picking up on OPs hints about lunar cycles then they can't think much of it

>>53312297
>What reason do they have to think that hydra venom is this guys weakness other than it's dangerous? Does he have some kinda connection to hydras?
Literally and explicitly nothing.

>>53312463
Well, perhaps we're playing Autism, the system, but again, I want to re-iterate that every single person in setting has some sort of astrological sign (not all are lunar though), and is considerably stronger or weaker than at other times. It's something the PCs have done themselves with big ritual spells they want to cast.

>>53312538
I mean, theoretically you could do enough damage (from any source) that it would take him too long to regenerate and his connection would give out before he put his body back together, but there's nothing especially good about venom that would accomplish that.

>>53312597
I mean, it would work if you could force an engagement then, but he's going to do his damnedest to avoid confrontation at those times. And of course he's going to be causing havoc of his own while you're waiting for the moon to align, so it would probably be best to work out a way to get rid of him at any season.

Just have hydras be connected to your moon bullshit. Let the PCs seek out the Lunar Hydra, the last link to the Pool of the Eclipse, with each head representing a phase of the moon. It turns out the BBEG is also interested in this legend, as a potion created from the venom of the heads could have the power to alter one's astrological alignment, perhaps locking him into one phase or offsetting his alignment completely. To find the Hydra, one must enter the Umbra, the gods' shadow, the place where the runoff from the Pools meet, In order to enter the Umbra, one must be on the same wavelength as it, requiring a portion from the Pools. This perhaps requires an artifact from each of the gods or a specific ritual to be performed at a place where the influence of all the phases of the moon is equal. While seeking this out, the players do battle with the forces of the BBEG.

Instead of being upset about how your players couldn't catch on to your oh so obvious plot, you could try to make a story with them.

>>53312463
>>53312594
>>53312824

These guys got it right.

Shit sounds overly complex. If they enjoy it, sure, but it sure sounds like the only one invested in the background is the DM. Just kinda sounds like bad writing... or at the very least, not knowing how to cater to the player demographic.

>>53313671
You really need to learn to read.

So, your saying you have a semi-immortal character? If he encountered a basilisk, would he turn to stone? Could you cover him in concrete so he would forever suffocate and not escape?

>>53313441
>I mean, theoretically you could do enough damage (from any source) that it would take him too long to regenerate and his connection would give out before he put his body back together, but there's nothing especially good about venom that would accomplish that.
Let's say they hit him with just a dozen doses.
That's 72 damage a pulse, in addition to all the other damage they can unleash upon him.
Hydra Venom sounds like a high quality damage inducer.
Inducing high amounts of damage quickly is a pretty good element of a plan to deal with a rapid regenerator if you can't guess how to negate his power.

It's actually ofren easier to find a way to make an enemy's power less relevant than it is to take that power away.
Capture would be my goal as a player, completely ignoring the plot dependant source of his powers.

Now, if their plan is to inject the bad guy and then walk off into the sunset as heroes, I'd recommend something else, like playing Candyland instead.

>>53311182
This.

>>53311479
How the shit are your players supposed to know that?

You're "that gm." I can sense it.

>>53313847
>If he encountered a basilisk, would he turn to stone?
Well, the system in question doesn't have basilisks, or that kind of permanent petrification, but I'd probably rule that without continual application, he'd unstone himself.

>Could you cover him in concrete so he would forever suffocate and not escape?
That'd work, or just any sort of entombment, assuming you can get him stuck there. But by the point where you could get that in, it'd probably be easier to just have several guys dice him to bits and resume at it whenever he starts reconstituting himself.

>>53313864
Well, at least system wise, poison doesn't work that way, you don't get to do "Multiple doses". You're either envenomed/infected, or you're not, and pumping more shit into his system wouldn't do much worse. Plus, it wouldn't be impossible for him to get to an antidote, assuming he's still within his basis of support. All it would take is one of his men to pull him away somewhere and shove a potion down his throat. And with the effort, expense, and trouble involved, it would probably be simpler to just surround him with guys who hit him with weapons over and over again.

>Capture would be my goal as a player, completely ignoring the plot dependant source of his powers.
Don't get me wrong, if they can capture him and spirit him away from his followers, they'll effectively beat him, pretty much regardless of whatever method they use to finish him off. That is not easy by any stretch of the imagination though.

>>53311479
They're going to dump so much hydra venom into the Lifestream.

>>53313820
All I'm saying is that the DM is not the only person telling a story. He doesn't have to make the players always be right, but he also doesn't have to be completely married to whatever lore he wrote up. Instead of being upset that players are going through his story wrong, he can instead exercise his creativity by molding the story to fit into the context of what the players want to do, thereby creating a more collaborative storytelling experience.

>>53313973
Well, for starters, they were instrumental in said previous campaign in getting the god of winter killed, and by this point, it's common knowledge that he's dead.

Meanwhile, they know that Onehving has been puttering around in the dead deity's stuff for years, and every story about him confirms that he got his strange powers after visiting one of his old abandoned temples. They don't know the narrow how, but in the broad based how, they already know, and even know which temple and where it is that Onehving turned into a demi-god himself at.

>>53314003
>it'd probably be easier to just have several guys dice him to bits and resume at it whenever he starts reconstituting himself.
>Guys continually chopping him is easier than entombing him in cement.
Your brain is broken.
You chop him up, mix the pieces in a small cement block, but that block in metal, then bury the box under feet of cement.

>>53311273
There is literally nothing wrong with quantum ogres.

>>53314022
Like I said, you need to learn to read. None of what you've said is even applicable, and it's just retarded to boot.

>Hey, we want to rescue Rapunzel from her tower
>We should flap our arms really really hard and fly up to get to the window!
>Well, no, that's really stupid, it'll never work and you guys both in and out of character should know that it'll never work.
>WE WANT TO DO IT!
>It's still stupid.
>You should be a more collaborative storyteller, and let us do what we want. Exercise your creativity.

Players running off to an obviously erroneous conclusion, in this case that Onehving is particularly scared of hydra venom, is just being stupid. Bending over backwards to accommodate said stupidity is not good GMing, however "flexible" or "Creative" it might be. Do they know all the inns and outs of how his near invulnerability works yet? No. But they have more than enough information to conclude that this option is really kind of dumb. Them convincing themselves otherwise isn't creative. It isn't even directly tied to the lunar cycle, which I again want to reiterate isn't even something unique to our villain.

>>53310386

If they've hired a poison extraction expert, it might be pertinent to have this guy ask why he's going out his way to get all this stuff. If the players suggest it's to thwart regeneration, perhaps have him seem a little taken aback and mention that poisons typically don't interface the same way. Someone crudely poisoned can still regenerate.

>>53314003
Those poison rules are dumb and I assume you explained that to your players?

>All it would take is one of his men to pull him away somewhere and shove a potion down his throat. And with the effort, expense, and trouble involved, it would probably be simpler to just surround him with guys who hit him with weapons over and over again.
Funny how that one man of his doesn't "pull him away somewhere" while guys surround him hitting him over and over again.

Like I said in the last post, they should poison on top of other damage, if poison worked right.

Your complete inability to use your imagination for any plan other than your own makes me doubt you in a number of ways.

>>53314055
So they probably assume he has a spell or special ability, not a connection to some dead god's jizz.

>>53314097
They're not great for major plot points or world-building

>>53313441

I know you're a bit pissed your players haven't Sherlocked their way into your answer but understand you have broken a cardinal sin (and this is coming from someone who considers themself a shit DM).

You have railroaded. Period. You made a vast world and out of all the possibilities you've afforded the player, you make it sound like 1 works. That is a stupid mistake. Perhaps hydra venom isn't the answer but your "clues" and whatnot are interpreted by a group of people in a different way than you want (which isn't on them, that's communication).

My advice: don't let the venom by the answer, but go and write at least 5 other ways they can beat count Regen. And realize they don't have to follow the wording of your sentences either.

>>53314128
>You have to go rescue Rapunzel from her tower
>We should breach the door and climb the stairs
>No, that won't work. You're supposed to flap your arms and fly.
>But we think this other thing should work.
>NO! MY STORY! YOU DO IT MY WAY!
>But we want to do that other thing.
>I'm not gonna bend over backwards so you can do something I didn't anticipate.

Write a fucking book if your story is so good. Part of participating in a social game is interacting with people who don't think exactly the same way you do; that which seems obvious to you, the one who has all the information in advance, might not be so clear to someone else. Saying yes is good improv that creates a better experience for everyone, shutting ideas down, especially when you string people along by going about it in a roundabout way, is just selfish. It's not your story, it's not your game. It's everyone's. Being the DM doesn't make you the leader, it makes you a player just like everyone else.

>>53314192
>>53311370
THIS

>>53314336
>They're not great for major plot points
that's literally what they're best for

>>53314344
From reading the thread, this doesn't sound like a communication problem at all. Magic in the world is related to Astrology. The villain is only active for 2 weeks every month and it's pretty regular 2 on and 2 off. He regenerates from things that would kill anyone.

And somehow, denying poison as the answer is railroading?

There are plenty of ways they could stop him outside that. People have suggested them and OP himself has pointed out they would work. He has bodyguards to prevent his capture, so if you got rid of them and cornered him that could do it. He's hiding out when he's not regenerating, so if you could find him and stop him then that could work. If they sort out that it's magic, then there's probably all sorts of magical ways they could counteract that, like somehow draining the pool or getting another god to take it for themselves.

It isn't railroading to say that since guns, swords, and rocks didn't work on this guy, that poison doesn't either.

>>53314381
Why are you trying so hard to be more wrong and way more retarded than OP?
Is it a personal challenge thing?

>>53314381
>Players fight against not!Superman, the man of steel
>He's immune to their bullets from their smaller guns
>One of them tries a rocket launcher, knocks him back, but no lasting effect
>I know! Since he's the man of steel, that means he must be made of steel, we just need armor-piercing ammo!

What do you do in this situation if they insist armor-piercing ammo is the solution even after you point out he's lived through far more powerful stuff?

My only input is that you shouldn't reward your players just for being "creative." If it won't work, it won't work, but just let them do what they want. They'll find out for themselves that they're wrong eventually.

>>53314422
>Oh shit guys we're fighting a guy that we assume has infinite regeneration
>The DM just told us this poison never expires unless you get the antidote we should try that

I don't understand why everyone is sperging out so hard. I agree that OP is being a bit of faggot by trying to defend why his players are wrong so hard, but is it really so terrible to allow them to follow through with their plan and have it not work?

>>53314238
>Funny how that one man of his doesn't "pull him away somewhere" while guys surround him hitting him over and over again.
Which is why the option hasn't been done prior. Like I've said upthread, if they can capture him, separate him from his base of support, and keep him put away, pretty much any option at that point removes him.

>Like I said in the last post, they should poison on top of other damage, if poison worked right.
So again, they disable him. He's been disabled before, including being chopped in half. What then? He will recover given some time, (Minutes, hours at most) and then what?

>Your complete inability to use your imagination for any plan other than your own makes me doubt you in a number of ways.
Pot, meet kettle.

>>53314344
>You have railroaded. Period. You made a vast world and out of all the possibilities you've afforded the player, you make it sound like 1 works
No, I haven't. They can, off the top of my head
>Decide they'd rather throw in with Onehving
>Leave the area and go for somewhere with greener pastures
>Try to work out some kind of power-sharing arrangement with the other local power figures
>Try to abduct him and get him away from his followers.
>Try to sow dissent among his followers so that they desert him, or at least get greater access for something else
>Try to gather a big enough coalition that they can just beat his followers/warband in a pitched battle decisively enough that he can be captured long term
>Try to break his magical connection.
>Try to overload said magical connection.
>On discovering the source of his power, try to access it for themselves
>Try to hit him in the rather narrow timeframe when he's not super-regenerating.
In the short term, they can of
>Simply try to learn more about the situation

All of those are better plans than "Hydra venom is his secret weakness that he tries to hide so let's get some."

>>53314420
Not if you're letting the whims of the players decide

>>53310386
what specifically is the major villain?
depending on what he is he may be immune to venoms/poisons

>>53314494
Probably the frustration that comes when they're sure about something and then spending all that time only to be wrong.

Hence why OP asked about what else to do other than just making them correct via fiat.

>>53314564
or at least weaken him

>>53314494

This. And if the party thinks they have time to fuck around with a long shot hydra venom answer, then the bad guy isn't doing enough bad stuff to be seen as a time sensitive threat. This guy just seems like a minor annoyance with no real point, especially since OP said one of the options is to just leave the area.

>>53314486
>you shouldn't reward your players just for being "creative."
It's find to reward players for being "creative" in minor ways or when it doesn't affect much, as long as you play it off as if that was your plan all along, but I draw the line at letting their "creativity" change important worldbuilding facts or affect large plot points. There's a certain faction of GMs that suggest that you should answer every question with "Yes, and..." or "Yes, but..." and while that can be a good technique to fill in holes, I think taking it too far is also bad.

I remember reading an example where players come into a new city, and one of them suggests the go to the mage guild. Now, if the GM hadn't thought about the town's mage guild, then sure he can go ahead and add it in and go from there. On the other hand, if the GM had specifically planned for that town to have no mage guilds at all, then he shouldn't change his plans at the whim of the players, no matter how much they whine about it, even if they at some point become convinced that there must be an underground mage guild somewhere.

>>53314456
Armor piercing is a solution. Not!Supes just so happens to have very strong armor. If only there was some material they could craft bullets from that would be able to pierce his armor. Say, a Not!Kryptonite or something...

Sounds like a plot hook to me.

>>53314504
>He will recover given some time, (Minutes, hours at most) and then what?
See
>>53314091
>You chop him up, mix the pieces in a small cement block, but that block in metal, then bury the box under feet of cement.

>Pot, meet kettle.
Cite my lack of imagination you argumentative fuckhole.

>>53314634
>Armor piercing is a solution.

No, it isn't. At least, not in the sense of just getting normal bullets designed to go through normal armor.

Which is basically what OP's players are doing.

Introducing bullets that happen to be made of the answer is less dumb than the idea that there's a special moon hydra, but the players aren't looking for that either.

When it comes to villains and PC plans, if the GM decided before hand, before even introducing the villain, that certain plans wouldn't work on him and he has solid reasons for why it shouldn't work, then the GM is absolutely in the right not to change anything to please the players.

On the other hand, if the players come up with a plan that the GM honestly hadn't though about and when he thinks about it and comes to the conclusion that it might work, then he should reward the players for their creativity if the manage to pull it off.

This case appears to be the former, so I'm with OP on this one, he shouldn't let poison work on him. What he should be doing, if his players are stuck, is dropping more and more hints, until he downright has to tell them how to beat the villain (if they aren't dead by then). If the players can't come up with a plan on their own, well maybe they should meet a knowledgeable or intelligent NPC that can suggest a new avenue of investigation, or maybe the could capture an enemy mook who cracks under pressure and tells them the villain's weakness, or maybe the villain has an ambitious traitor in their midst who seeks to make use of the PCs to move up in world by having them kill his boss.

>>53314573

It would be nice if OP indicated the suggestions that he liked if he wanted help coming up with ideas.

>>53314651
He literally says later in the post that sort of thing would work, under the category of just getting his followers away from him so you have time to do it.

>>53314651
But that requires a separation of his base of support, at least long enough to grab him and get him away somewhere where you can entomb him or chop him to pieces. Depending on when exactly this plan goes into action, you need days to weeks to be sure that his followers won't mount some kind of rescue. Yes, if they can do that part, they'll win, pretty much however they decide to kill him. Far more likely, in the current state of affairs is that if anyone grabs his body, it'll be the bodyguards he's got, at which point enacting any plan is going to be difficult.

So you need to get rid of the bodyguards somehow. True, you could defeat them conventionally or even use the poison to help defeat them, but they're fairly tough. And in any case, we've drifted a rather long way from "the poison is his super speshul weakness".

>>53314743
Considering that most of the suggestions are just 'give it to them anyway' or, 'here's how -I- would try to kill a regenerating supervillain', I'm not sure if there's any meaningful discussion to be had here.

The options are to either level with them or wait, and I don't think there is a better answer.

>>53314778
No, there were plenty of suggestions in this thread on how to subtly and not so subtly steer the players away from their plan. They were mostly ignored in favor of arguing with the "just change your plot to fit the player's ideas" crowd.

>>53314611
If that is the case, you shouldn't let them look for mage guilds in the first place, otherwise you are letting them waste everyone's time for no good reason.

On the other hand, why would there not be an underground mage guild in a place that, for some reason, specifically forbids mage guilds? Why would there not be a person who could point them in the direction of where there could be a mage guild? That seems a lot more interesting than having no mage guilds, full stop.

>>53314611

I don't mind creativity being rewarded or players having a hand in world-building. I have a problem with rewarding players for creativity when they're blatantly wrong about established facts about the world.

>>53314824

Meaning, if the players are wrong, let them be wrong. Don't reward them for it. Maybe they'll learn to pay attention to hints in the future.

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>>53310386

>>53314778
See
>>53314389

>>53314778

See
>>53311267
>>53312002
>>53312288
>>53314192

These all have suggestions that will allow you to lay some pretty obvious signs that the poison won't work without you straight up saying so. What's wrong with these? Or do you really just want to argue?

>>53314753
>But it will be hard

>>53314719
Yes, it is, just not in the way the players originally thought. It's literally a "yes, but" solution. The idea of finding bullets that could pierce the guy's armor led them to a solution. If the players wanted to find a way to take away his invincibility, that would have led them to a different solution. Instead of leading his players to a solution, OP has decided he would rather have the game come to a screeching halt. That is entirely on him.

>>53314811
>you shouldn't let them look for mage guilds
How would I do that? Would I just downright tell them OOC to stop doing that? If they insist looking for a mage guild, the only thing I can do is provide as much evidence as possible that there are no mage guilds in town or try to direct they attention elsewhere, but if they insist on wasting their time and ignoring every hint and plot hook I throw their way, well there's little I can do aside from attempting to work that into the story.

>specifically forbids mage guilds
For a start, I didn't say that. There may not be any mage guilds for a number of other reasons. Maybe this is just a very remote location where the organized mages haven't gotten to yet.

Aside from that, even if mage guilds are forbidden, enforcement might be very effective or magic is too easy to detect. It really depends on the setting.

In the end, my point is, if the GM has decided from the start that for whatever reason there are absolutely no mage guilds in town, not even underground ones, then the players are simply wrong about a fact of the world and that's it. On the other hand, if the GM didn't think about underground mage guilds at all when designing the town, then yeah, he could write it in.

Basically, if the GM thought of a fact before hand, then he shouldn't easily change it when the players are wrong about it, but if he didn't think about it at all, then that's the perfect place to reward the players for their "creativity."

>>53314948
The key point you're missing is that the players still have to make a leap of logic from normal armor piercing to not!Kryptonite.

Just like OPs players have to make the leap of logic from hydra poison to hydra poison when the stars align.

The important part here is the second bit, stars aligning or not!Kryptonite, not the first bit.

If the players insisted going after not!Superman with tungsten core bullets, the solution is not to make not!Superman's weakness tungsten, but to let the players know that their plan doesn't work, whether before hand or during the fight is up to the GM.

>>53314964
Yes, if after no more than ten minutes and multiple rolls the players still don't take a hint, you tell them OOC to cut it out. By all means, let them waste your time as much as you like, but then don't come to /tg complaining about how powerless you are to get them back on track when you literally control the entire game world.

>>53315021
They make the leap because the DM plays along with their ideas and uses them to lead the players in the right direction. "Why can't my players see that their ideas are stupid? Oh, woe is me!" is no more useful than players going through with useless ideas.

>>53315137
>then don't come to /tg complaining
I'm not complaining about shit, if they're happy wasting their time looking for a non-existent guild, who am I to put a stop to their fun? I'm just here to point out that OP shouldn't change his world to fit the player's misconceptions, and that instead he should come up with a way to point them in the right direction.

>"Why can't my players see that their ideas are stupid? Oh, woe is me!"
Holy strawman, Batman! My entire point is that the GM should lead the players in the right direction instead of changing the world to fit the players. So I have no idea why you're trying to argue with me if you're essentially agreeing with me.

>>53315181
This is about OP, who is clearly upset that his players are going off in the wrong direction. Because he is unwilling to have the wrong direction become the right direction or to have the wrong direction lead to the right direction, this is now an issue of OP being too much of a pussy to force them to go in the right direction.

>>53315296
>wrong direction become the right direction
My point is that this is the wrong way to go about solving this problem

>the wrong direction lead to the right direction
This is a better way to go about it, but still not perfect

Regardless, several solutions have already been presented to the OP, and he either took one and left or didn't take one and we'll see this thread again sometime in the future.

>>53315366
I obviously disagree with you, but that's fine. I tend to think of the two solutions you pointed out as one in the same, anyway, as my sessions, game worlds, and overall DMing style is highly improvisational, which isn't for everyone.

I guess my point is that either you are going to be flexible or you are not. Trying to be both just makes everyone unhappy. If a DM is upset the players are going the wrong way, it is probably his fault because it is the DM who decides whether the way the players are going is right or not and, ultimately, he has the power to make them go the right way if he so pleases.

So, I guess I'll see you the next time this thread comes around and we can go through this same song and dance all over again. Until next time.

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>>53310386
IS he immune to poison? Does his rapid regeneration power heal more then 6 hp a round? Can he go unconscious but not die?


Even if it can not kill him it may be able to CC lock him via a endless dot. In the shoes of the PCs that is almost as good as killing him. Even if hydra venom does not last forever it they can still bury the villain.

Keep in mind that in myth Hydra blood is so OP that Heracles gets killed via a second hand dose of it. In some version Heracles lights himself on fire to get it over with faster.

In myth Hydra blood is no joke.

>>53310386
Use their wrong conclusions to lead them back on the right track.

The beastmaster tells them of the mythical Ur-hydra rumored to live at the pool of life, and its venom is strong enough to kill gods, hint hint nudge nudge.

When the players arrive there is no hydra but evidence of Onehving magically tapping the pool.

The important bit is to not make players feel stupid for chasing a red herring, so the hydra should somehow be related to the discovery. Maybe it was the pool's guardian and Onehvig killed it, leaving it's corpse by the poolside? No matter how you do it, you should make the players feel smart for having "figured out" your plot i.e. chasing after the hydra lead.

>>53310386


So tell us first. Why wouldn't the hydra poison work on him?

>>53311715
>It isn't nearly as nasty as being literally cut in half, which they've directly seen him recover from
The fuck it isn't. You'd die from bisection but when the mind recognizes it's in dire straits it actually does shut off as much bloodflow as possible. Stumped limbs don't spurt like nicked veins do. Hydra venom would be impossible to get out of the system without even further mutilation/antivenin so it stands as a good counter for healing.

>>53314881
>Or do you really just want to argue?
I think we have our answer.

>>53310386
Most DMs expect players to read their fucking mind and are absolutely terrible at communicating facts or logical conclusions no matter how desperately they think they're handing out entire answers. This may not be a problem you can fix. Sorry.

>>53310386
I'd have it just do damage to him over time that his regeneration has to counteract, same as any other source of damage. So if his regeneration can heal 10 damage per turn, well, now he's only healing 4. It still can't kill him, but it means they can injure him to the point where he can't fight back more easily, and that he gets up slower.

Just because it isn't the solution doesn't mean it isn't useful.

>>53312002
Best post in this thread

>>53310386
Give people the benefit of the doubt. Your reality should be at least a little elastic. Does it make sense that hyrda venom would fuck his shit up? I mean, could it make sense? If so, then it probably should. At least somewhat. It doesn't have to be the ultimate, most-effective-thing out there, but it should be at least relatively effective. Engage your players by finding ways to share their perception of reality, at least when it makes sense and could be cool.

>>53311273
>expects dumb as shit players to follow his tzeentch-level master plans in figuring out conundrums and puzzles

You are basically expecting your game to play like a vidya my dude. Let me tell you: it is not a vidya. The players can't stop and reload their save point when they are in a bind and -if you play a good game- death is permanent.

So your solutions are twofold: either you do what is most fun for the group as a whole or you do what is most fun to you, risking that the group does not find it fun and thus turning you into That GM.

I wonder what you will do.

>>53311448
>have what the players do put them in an even worse position
Shit advice from That guy. As expected.

>>53311479
And you gave them "clues" like what?

>>53314381
Honestly, this is more akin to regular Rapunzel.
>"We should breach!"
No.
>"Flap our arms and fly up there!"
No.
>"How are we supposed to do it then?"
Climb her fucking hair you idiot.

>>53319191
>Climb her fucking hair you idiot
That's a retarded solution, though. Her neck wouldn't be able to support the weight of an adult male, and even if it did she would be yanked out of the window by the climber.

>>53319277
Don't be dense.
She uses the hair like a rope, anchoring it around something and gripping it tight.

>>53315181
>OP shouldn't change his world to fit the player's misconceptions
He doesn't have to do that at all. OP has already established that, in his setting, a beast master can extract hydra venom. OP has also established that no poison is enough to kill through (at least some forms of) regeneration.

Putting two and two together by having the beastmaster say "oh you need this to kill a regenerating foe? poison's not enough for that, you need X" (the #1 suggestion in this thread) does not remotely involve "OP changing his world", and OP should take a look at his strengths and weaknesses as a DM and try to recognize ways of becoming better.

OP if you're still here, I hope you're not dissuaded by the hostility in this thread. The setting sounds neat, and I'd be interested in hearing what solution you plan to go with, or what you're leaning towards.

>>53311494
>>53311710
>>53318955
It's not direct advice you dumbasses. It's just a quick mindshit to show that you don't have to bend to the will of the players. As a GM, you can do whatever.

What if you went along with it but suggest that only a certain very powerful hydra's venom will work? You said they're searching for another hydra right now so it wouldn't be hard to lead them there. Make it a proper boss fight so they still have to do something very difficult to overcome the villain's power.

>>53314097
This is why you can't find a gaming group.

>>53319668
Because they don't think quantum ogres are bad or because they think that's a good use of quantum ogres?

>>53311273
>whatever dumbfuck idea that someone comes up with and commits to WILL LEAD THEM TO THE CORRECT CONCLUSION BECAUSE IT ISN'T A VIDEO GAME AND THERE IS A COMPETENT HUMAN BEHIND THE CURTAINS THAT CAN SHEPHERD THE PLAYER TOWARDS THE CORRECT GOAL
fixed

unless you're not a competent human, then my bad

I mean, using venom as a weapon isn't stupid. It may not outright kill him and it's not the solution but it can help.

>>53319604
You don't have to bend to the will of players, but intentionally shitting on the game makes you a That Guy regardless, you cocksucker.

>>53320276
But even that guy agrees on one thing: The Hydra venom should come into play somehow.

>>53314128
Your analogy is flawed. From the original description it's more like

>Hey, we want to rescue Rapunzel from her tower, but there are no doors into her tower except for that window right at the top
>While on a side-quest, bump into a dire-ostrich that is somehow able to fly
>Players query how and I confirm with "Yeah Dire-Ostriches have magic flight powers"
>Players decide they need to spend time hunting Dire-ostriches to make magic wings to fly to the top of the tower
>But that's not how I wrote it, why didn't you guys pick up all my subtle hints about walking round the tower three times widdershins on the night of a full moon

>>53311670
Simple.
The poison makes him take a little longer to regenerate, and being powered up doesn't last quite as long.

>>53320489
>widdershins
nice