Should Paladin willingly fall if it leads to a way to defeat evil?

>>53244563
If there's literally no better option, I guess. The problem is that there's almost always going to be a better option, or at least one that won't lead to them falling.

something something powder keg of justice

>>53244563
>Defeat evil
>By falling
It isn't really defeating evil then is it?

>>53244563

Good questline.

It's all about characterization. If you play edge, you're normally going to draw bad blood.

Had a campaign where a blood line of paladins was cursed with tieflings one in every 7th son.

It was really exciting, played rather funny and ended excellently.

>>53244563
why is part of her face black?

>>53244803
He's wearing a cloth mask.

>>53244563
Lelouch was Lawful Good, he was perfect paladin material

>>53244563
i guess, if it was the absolute last choice possible, with all other choices exhausted and oblivion being the only other possibility

but 99% of the time, the answer is no

>>53244839
I sincerely hope this is bad b8. The only selflessly good thing he did was the Zero Requiem, and even that was only because he thought his sister was dead and he had nothing to live for. The moment he learned she was alive he tried to drop the plan but Suzaku wouldn't let him.

>>53244803
>Lelouch
>Her
Well, he was chara-designed by CLAMP so it's a fair mistake

Code Geass best original anime (as in not adapted from a manga/novel/game)

>>53244889
He was trying to save the world from a tyrannical empire, he could have lived a peaceful life in Japan instead he took it upon himself to help the planet

>>53244924
The impression I got was that he was an egotistical fucker with a power complex, opposing britannia was his means of justifying it to himself and the world around him.

>>53244924
"Help the planet" aka: "Piss off my daddy because I'm mad at him"
You can tell he doesn't actually believe any of the noble shit he spews because he changes his motivation every five minutes.
>I'm doing it for my sister!
She thinks what you're doing is wrong.
>I'm doing it to avenge my mother!
So does she.
>I'm doing it to make the world a better place!
Valid, except that was literally his last option when you wanted to die.

>>53244939
>>53244940
If he was really selfish he wouldn't have started all that shit and just used the Geass to make his own life better
Instead he decided to to help the world, he knew firsthand how cruel Britannia could be and he wanted to protect the rest of the world from it

>>53244960
He had no interest in an easy life, he wanted the whole world to fear and respect him.

As soon as his sister's in trouble, he's trying to call the whole thing off.

>>53244960
That's exactly what he did, though. He wanted to play chessmaster irl because gambling wasn't enough of a thrill for him, so he started playing actual war. Vengeful anger is the only emotion you actually see out of him that isn't faked for the purposes of manipulating someone, excluding Shirley and Nunnaly.

>>53244970
>>53244980
The fact that he actually cares about Nunnally already shows how he's good

>>53244563
Why is this mans head stuck inside a novelty oversized salad bowl?

>>53245023
Because Lelouche likes to play theatrics. It's part of a costume he came up with to lead a rebellion while remaining anonymous, though it's missing his helmet.

>>53245013
I think that he was ultimately a good person, but he started out motivated only by the thrill of challenge and revenge for his mother. He's got an arc, over the course of the show he's forced to become the person he's pretending to be, and his ultimate fate is the immutable proof of that.

Which is why the alternate ending pisses me right off.

Still tho, remove the shitty filler boss battle enemies from R2 and it's a superb animoo.

>>53245033
>Which is why the alternate ending pisses me right off.
What was this?

>>53245030
Presumably a rebellion with no need for peripheral vision.
Or self respect.

>>53245038
In the original he straight fucking dies and the world carries on a better place forit

The alt ending is where he somehow escaped alive and it's all keikaku

Pretty much ruins the significance of his one truly genuine and unconditional sacrifice.

>>53245013
Caring for one person while using others like disposable pawns is hardly "good". I'd say chaotic neutral at best. The fact that he did anything positive is purely coincedental, and was never his motive.

Lelouch is actually Lawful Evil

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>>53245059
>trying to apply gygax DnD alignments to an anime about the superficiality of ethics

>>53245049
It was never an alternate ending, it was always the canon ending, it was obvious 9 years ago and it's obvious now
Yes, Lelouch again tricked everyone and had the last laugh, it's beautiful

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>>53245049
>spoiler #2
What the fuck?

Why would they do that? The original ending was perfect.

>>53245085
to make season 3

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>>53245082
>wow epic trickster that was a really cool fakeout looloosh is so awesome who needs an ending that shows character development lol xdd

>>53245049

His fate was ambiguous even in the original ending, and a sequel isn't an alternate ending.

Also we don't know if he knew he was immortal. He might have thought he was martyring himself and was very surprised to wake up after.

>>53245085
see >>53245082
Simply put he took Charle's code,
so he's immortal now, after he "died" he then resurrected like Charles did and he went on to live with CC
>>53245105
It would have been absolutely idiotic for Lelouch to actually die, he's done way crazier things

>>53245108
>His fate was ambiguous even in the original ending
He literally falls on a sword and dies.

>>53245124
He took charles code and was thus immortal

Aka, he didn't die

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>>53245108
He knew, he found out his dad wasn't a complete bastard and he stopped Suzaku from interfering so that he could take Charles's code from him
>>53245124
Are you guys actually stupid or what?

>>53244563
"Can't say. It's an interesting hypothetical question, but I do not believe there are evils immune to justice. Evil may worm its way deep into power or importance, but a sharp bi of metal in the right place at the right time is still capable of fully extracting it. Surgical precision and all that, wot wot? Anyway, aren't you, like, 14? Your Middle school bus will be here any minute.

>>53244918
Better than most CLAMP anime, at least.

>>53244563
All paladins fall willingly. Falling requires a deliberate breaking of the tenets of your oath.

>>53245163
Well, yes but it wasn't created by CLAMP, they only made the character designs
If you talk shit about Card Captor Sakura, I'll find you and do bad things to you like watching all of Chobits without pause
CLAMP is YMMV incarnate

>>53245201
Oh fuck no. I said "most" not "all". CCS is light years above shit like campus detectives. Fuck that manga with a spork.

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Holy shit there's a third season of Code Geass?

>>53244940
>She thinks what you're doing is wrong.
Doing something for someone is not contingent on what that someone thinks. He was building a better world for his sister regardless of what his sister wanted, because he thought he knew better. That was the point of that arc.

Doing it for his sister was just about the only consistent thing about Lelouch's character. Even when he thought she was dead, he was doing it in memory of his sister.

Avenging his mother was always secondary and he understandably dropped that when he learned that there was nothing to avenge and that his mother was a dumb bitch.

>>53245257
>Holy shit there's a third season of Code Geass?
No.
There's a movie taking place between part 1 and R2.

>>53244563
Perhaps the Paladin never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that they are a few paladins who understood that difference, more than anyone knew.
The World would have fallen if they had not gone to war.

>>53245273
No, there's confirmed a season 3. It's supposed to be released later this year, google it famalam.

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>>53245257
There will be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvF19D7WemQ

>>53245307
>>53245317
But why?
There's nothing more to tell, the anime is closed and round.
Is it going to be nothing more than a cash-cow?

There's other animes in dire need of another season (s)

>>53245336
Because money
Honestly as long as Lelouch is the absolute madman that he was in R2 I'm gonna be happy

>>53244563
I think the deal is more about whether the action benefits good rather than if it defeats evil.
A paladin generally falls when they do something that harms the good. A paladin fights evil not necessarily for the sake of fighting evil but because evil will harm the good. In many cases evil is not enough of a systematic threat that it warrants great sacrifice. In other cases the evil is insidious enough that killing it will result in even more evil springing up. Sacrificing to much to defeat a temporary threat can in the long run will harm the paladin's cause.

Basically don't be a retard. A lot of characters will back themselves into corners and end up making hard choices that could have been avoided really easily. And of course you have those trigger happy, cleave and smite types who will burn down a whole village is it means taking down two orcs. Something to do with god sorting everyone out.

>>53245317
>>53245273
Also the prequel Akito the Exiled

>>53245410
Akito is between seasons 1 and 2. Although the only characters from the original series that even appear are Suzaku and a brainwashed Lelouch (and Rolo for all of five seconds).

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>>53245422
Oh
Huh.
the more you know

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I thought Lelouch of the Resurrection was another in-betweener

>>53245532
nah, sequel

>>53245355
>And of course you have those trigger happy, cleave and smite types who will burn down a whole village is it means taking down two orcs

Orcs are an evil incarnate, brought to this world by vile gods to do their dark deeds. A few innocent human deaths is a small price to pay to remove their stain from the earth.

Paladin wouldn't fall, because he's doing a good deed. He only falls if it doesn't work.

>>53246110
>Thinking a few innocent deaths is a small price
>Ever
You would absolutely fall if you played a paladin at my table. I'm not into neutering them and "making" a paladin fall but a paladin should never get sloppy or careless with the treatment and safety of innocents.

>>53246352
For the greater good is a perfectly good reason
Paladins are based on medieval legends of holy warriors fighting against evil, sacrifice is an important part of fighting evil

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>>53244563
The last time that happned the Paladin literally got ejected from the universe because he went against the status quo and became a vestige.

Your Alignment is literally a cosmic force that makes you adhere to stereotypes, otherwise you become Elder Evil or a vestige. Trufax.

Or you can become an Evangelist, and Thrallheard combo and WOLOLOLO to the max.

>>53246897
Personal sacrifice, not sacrificing bystanders.

>>53246999
You think I don't feel it in my heart when these people must die? Sure, I do. It hurts. I feel bad.

That's a personal sacrifice, ain't it?

>>53244563
I'd argue the whole point of becoming a Paladin is believing the code of righteousness you follow is the only code you need follow. It's the only correct way to uphold that which is good, and any other considerations are distractions.

Therefore I'd say that a Paladin that breaks there code to defeat a certain evil- however justified they are in that choice- has fallen as a Paladin.

Imagine an Arthurian sort of knight. To them chivalry is all. However, to defeat a cunning or especially dangerous sort of enemy, they must break their code of chivalry. If they make that choice, they will have defeated this monster, but the price is falling from grace because they broke from chivalry.

It's a steep price, but I'd also argue it would be easier for an ex-paladin to atone for breaking their code in this way due to mitigating factors.

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>>53246110
Orcs are evil because they go around killing loads of innocents.
If you are also killing loads of innocents it doesn't matter if a couple baddies where in there too, you are still doing an evil deed.

A paladins job is to take the long hard road of righteousness. That means they can't just go whole hog and kill everyone, they need to be wise and careful in their application of justice to best uphold what is good in the world. Really upholding good is their first priority, smiting is just a tool used to that end but in addition they also have diplomacy and healing and even reason. Because righteousness means nothing if there is nothing to protect.
A paladin has to sacrifice, but they should sacrifice themselves first. Killing loads of innocents is a last resort because it fundamentally goes against what the paladin is normally meant to do. It's an action that should not be taken lightly and only if potential lives and livelihoods saved must outnumbers those lost.

>>53247136
That's a whole load of bollocks.

All orcs must die. Especially infants, lest they grow into more of their kind.

>>53244563
According to the tome of salvation, no.
So, yes>>53244563

>>53244960
This sounds like a "Griffith Did Nothing Wrong" poster.

>>53244563
A paladin cannot fall for doing an evil action if he had no choice.

He can only do that however if there really isn't, and I mean ISN'T any other choice. It should be a last resort and a very painful one.

>>53244563
As in, Defy your gods tenants to achieve the greater good

>>53244563
Just go with your gut, man. If someone else disagrees with you then you either talk it out or one of your ideals outlives the other.

>>53245226
>>53245201
Is CCS actually good? I remember watching it dubbed on TV as a kid, and I was looking through some old shit and found where I had a toy book full of the cards.

>>53244563
If there's no third option, yes.

The atonement is seeing it through to the end of defeating evil without the divine powers.

>>53247055
>it feels wrong, so it must be right!

>>53247055
That guy never realizes he is That guy. Classic.

>>53247869
Card Captor is one of the better magical girl genre series.

>posting this same shit on /lit/ within two days

Don't think we're not on to you, fag

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You mean, would they willingly sacrifice everything, including their honour for what is right, even if it means they will be hated by the world they leave behind?

>>53248863
Yup, The Boss is a paladin

>>53244771
Falling doesn't make you evil. It makes you not a Paladin anymore. Like a shitty fighter.

>>53244563
If you look at good and evil as rational choices then you were never really a paladin in the first place. The paladin brand of justice comes from the heart, not the head, and doesn't mesh well with the more pragmatic forms of justice, even if both are valid ways to be a good person.

A paladin falls when he loses faith in his ideals, or the world's ability to live up to them. That loss of faith could lead to a morally dubious 'greater good' decision, or be the result of it, but by definition the paladin literally cannot willingly fall any more than a person can willingly stop being able to see. It always requires outside intervention.

>>53249777
What? Most fallen Paladins fall because they chose to.

I would argue that a Paladin can *only* fall when he willingly wants to.

A Paladin falls when he chooses vengeance, comfort, greed, lust, etc, over his chosen virtues. When he violates his chosen morals for the easier path, not when the DM is a dick and gives you "Orc babi what do?" levels of "moral quandaries." In the end it's always the Paladin that chooses, because he wanted to, not because he wasn't strong enough, and not because of sone catch-22 in moral reasoning. A Paladin falls when his heart of hearts no longer wishes to follows his ideal path, because that's where all the Paladins power comes from, the heart.

>>53244563
It is for the greater good.
The light closest to darkness shines brightest.