/osrg/ OSR General

>>53241648
I never played AD&D, I started with 5e

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Okay, so I'm probably going to be running a game during a month-long study abroad trip this summer.
It's probably going to be OSR, since the books are light (or electronic!) and I don't especially want to haul my 5e stuff across the Atlantic and back.

My options right now are:
Beyond the Wall
B/X (My usual go-to, but it's kind of brutal for first-timers. I do have books, tho)
BFRPG (I've got three books and it's pretty flexible, but also a little on the B/X side of brutality)

Does anyone have any suggestions or alternatives? I'd run Flame Princess but it's a little 2edgy for the given crowd (which might include a professor's kid), and I kind of want to go for a more "pure" (if you can call a retroclone that) D&D experience.

Also, including the shitty OC I sort of abandoned work on a while back due to a lack of playtesting and time.

>>53241965
LotFP is just Bx.
The system anyways, the modules have "AESTHETIC"
But the modules run in Bx. No conversion needed.
They run in AD&D with almost no issues, even

>>53241965
So you want a game that is simultaneously true to the real D&D experience but actually isn't because the real D&D experience is too lethal?

>>53241648
How good is OSR at doing a story-first game? I like having lethal systems and to be frank narrative focused games tend to not be very lethal but I really run things off the cuff combat wise and tend to prepare more for the story and the characters backgrounds and such. Could I run an OSR game with that style of among?

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>>53241965
Shit being too brutal is easy to fix, at least if the ultimate concern is people getting dead too easily. Max hit points at 1st level. You don't die until you reach -10 or -level or -whatever. Maybe you get some sort of saving throw to avoid your fate whenever the game says you're dead (see pic). I mean, you're practically doing it wrong if you don't change something when playing Basic, and make the game your own.

>>53242097
Dungeons is the first word because Dungeons are what the game is about.
A lot of people like to throw around the term, "emergent story" but they only say it to avoid driving prospective players away.

You can do a story in OSR,
it can even by an Epic Fantasy story,
but if it takes you away from the dungeon
the game will not hold up.

Plan your story accordingly.

>>53241965
>but it's kind of brutal for first-timers.
Not sure what you mean here.
First timers to OSR? Sure.
First timers to RPGs? No.

Set expectations properly, and keep iterations times down.

>>53242150
>but if it takes you away from the dungeon, the game will not hold up.
Then why do Fighters get an army and a castle at 9th level?

>>53242097
Well, OSR games don't have a lot of noncombat rules to get in your way, so you can pretty much effortlessly do whatever the fuck you want to, as long as that's what you're looking for. If you want more rule structure to hang your story on, that could be problematic.

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Doing either a 1d100 table or a few monsters tonight.

Any requests?

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>>53242181
Holdover from when D&D was a splat book about raising funds for wars.

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https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/05/osr-bring-out-your-dead.html

If you've got a medieval setting, you should consider adding the Plague. Not just a plague, but THE Plague, the big one, the one that changes everything. Shows up once every few hundred years. The last time in 1918.

Featuring useful tables, medieval art, and brutal rules for dying in a ditch.

>>53242207
I'd like to see a d100 table of slightly magical but otherwise completely mundane/useless equipment like "magical broom that sweeps one square foot of floor repeatedly" or a list of odd baubles and pieces found in a wizards lab.

>>53242207
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R505e9YBmVU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWoz-74TFEc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doqxzXEMiio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YysNTlGQtm4

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>>53242207
Environmental predators. Things that attack during blizzards, sandstorms, rainstorms, earthquakes, forest fires, and floods only.

>>53242150
Not even really disagreeing with you but
>Dungeons is the first word because Dungeons are what the game is about.
This seems like sort of dumb reasoning. "Dragons" is in the title and no one assumes you need them for the game to work.

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So how do you fluff up your spells and magic systems? I really like the more crazy and personal methods of Sorcerers, and somewhat dislike the traditional Vancian system in fluff, but I do like the Vancian mechanics for dungeon crawlers.

So how do you present the whole "prepare spells X number per day and each spell does Y" in a settings fluff?

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>>53242292

>>53242292
That KKK member looks so dejected.

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Are PDFs of Wormskin or any other Necrotic Gnome stuff in the trove? If not, does anyone have a copy?

>>53241648
The tunnel to true AD&D is supposed to look like a penis, right?

>>53242310

That's exactly the fluff I don't like about Vancian casting, and want to change.

>>53242339

But that's how it works. Wanting it to change is wanting something different entirely.

>>53242215
I like to think that it's a place to put your treasure and an army to guard your treasure, so you can go to new dungeons with even more treasure in it.

>>53242335
Of course because people who make it to "True AD&D" are dicks, right?

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>>53242292
Wizards: Spells are magic ferret-spirit-things. They can live in your gun-brain, and you can shoot them at your enemies. They can also live in your spellbook (jail) or in the wild (very bad for everyone). You can crossbreed them and train them. You can also get a higher calibre brain-gun that has more chambers for bullets as you get better at being a wizard. Once you fire a bullet, it wanders around for a full day before going back into its cage at night.

Paladins: God talks through you. You can't speak, but He can, and he can command rivers to flow backwards, rocks to shatter, or people to fall over dead. Say too much and your head explodes from the stress.

Summoners: You know the true names of a few powerful but really, really weird spirits. They show up to help you for a few hours per day. They won't stay longer because some other Summoner needs them and calls them away from you.

>>53242339
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spells are actually thrown by artificial satellites, left there by ancient dinosaurs.
All spells fall from the sky, you can't cast spells in a closed room (etc).

The satellites, being 80s mainframes, are slow as balls.
There are very few wizards, because they all have to share system resources.
Spell slots are just time-cards.

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>>53242389
Excellent work.

>>53241648

Are you guys aware of how much /osrg/ looks like /sprg/?

I ask because I misread it and was like "cute and honest."

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>>53242397
Pretty much.

Look. People know what to do in a blizzard. Get to shelter. Get out of the wind. Build a fire.

But what if there's a tiger after you? Do you risk the wind, blindness, and white whirl of snow, or do you stay in one spot and let the tiger get you?

What if it's not a tiger? What if it's something like a deep sea gulper eel? The deep ocean and high mountain passes have a surprising amount in common.

>>53242421
We should really just call it /osr/.

>>53242097
OSR stuff works fine for story focused games, honestly I find they work better then 90% of "Narrative games" just on the virtue of the rules being unobtrusive and not utter shit.

>>53242759
>honestly I find they work better then 90% of "Narrative games" just on the virtue of the rules being unobtrusive and not utter shit.

This, seriously,

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>>53242230
Bumping this for feedback and complaints.

>>53242871
It's interesting and well-written content, but I'm not sure how you'd use a lot of it in a game were Cure Disease exists.

>>53242871

> complaints

Half the party sitting around while the other half gradually fails saving throws as their only means of recovery doesn't seem like much of an adventure unless you do something more with it.

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>>53242939
>but I'm not sure how you'd use a lot of it in a game were Cure Disease exists.

>Spells like cure disease will cure the Plague, but will not grant resistance. You can still be reinfected.

You'll run out of spells eventually, even if you are a cleric.

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>>53242960
>Half the party sitting around while the other half gradually fails saving throws as their only means of recovery doesn't seem like much of an adventure unless you do something more with it.

Pretty sure nobody's going to be sitting around. Also, compared to just a straight up Save vs Death that poisons and pit traps have in this type of game... it seems like this provides more story opportunities.

You can go on an adventure to find a cure. You can abandon your friends and they can seek revenge when they recover. You can flee the plague in the morning and infect a new village (oops) at nightfall.

Plus, at 1d6 Con drain per Save failed, you'll average 3 days of illness. Much less if you're fighting or running. Much, much less.

>>53242242
Why on earth is Lemon Demon suddenly coming back? I got Kitten is Angry stuck in my head the other day despite not having thought about it for years, and now they're fucking everywhere.

>>53243417
it's literally just one dude here tho

>>53243467
Hasn't just been here, though.

Anyway, anyone else use the Catholic Church in D&D? I may play on Outdoor Survival, but the main human religion is literally catholicism, because I'm lazy and find it funny. The pope's waaaaay off-map though.

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>>53243499
>Anyway, anyone else use the Catholic Church in D&D? I may play on Outdoor Survival, but the main human religion is literally catholicism, because I'm lazy and find it funny. The pope's waaaaay off-map though.

Yup. I even wrote up a Generic Cleric and a Generic Religion.
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/04/osr-religion-in-elderstone.html
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/04/osr-cleric-spells.html

>>53243499
Lemon Demon's been pretty big for a while since he rebranded himself as Neil Cicierega. Mouth Moods went viral. And then people started dredging up his old stuff in a sort of feedback loop.

>>53243596
I had no idea that was the same guy. thanks, /osrg/.

>>53242377
>>53242389

Not a fan of those either. I'd really prefer something else.

>>53243669
The wizard's union is really strict about wizard's services.
And the wizard's union also manages the wizard afterlife.
So most wizards aren't to keen on breaking union rules.

Any cyberpunk OSR in the trove?

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>>53243669
>Not a fan of those either. I'd really prefer something else.

Ok there big chutes, not to be hostile, but write it your own damn self. You've been spoonfed two portions. You're going to have to walk over to the buffet if you want thirds.

>>53243669 Breach contract, and your Demon claims your soul.
But you're welcome to try. So carefully note which spells are spent.

>>53242118
>death check

Why not just use the literal Save vs. Death

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>>53243669
MUs have multiple hearts.
And livers.
And esophagi.
And pancreases.
And so on.

Name level MUs have multiple brains.

MUs are quick to grow new organs.
They need to be.

Spells cost an arm and a leg.

How do you people actually manage to sit down and design a dungeon? Every time I st down, draw 4-9 rooms, get disgusted with it, and end up trashing the whole thing. Rinse and repeat. I'm this close to just stealing some maps online and re-stocking them myself.

>>53243985
Make a point crawl, THEN add rooms.

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>>53243985
Here's my process:

1. What is your goal?

Before you put pen to paper, think. What do you want to accomplish? Is this dungeon adversarial, pitting the players against the GM in a battle of wits? Is it exploration-based? Is there a mystery to uncover? Will the dungeon rely on classic tropes, or invert them in new and exciting ways?

2. Is this dungeon designed for experienced players or new players?

New players don't know the tropes. Experienced players open doors like some sort of obsessive-compulsive SWAT team. Plan accordingly.

3. What is the core identity of the dungeon?

Some examples: tomb, false tomb, wizard's tower, ancient prison, chase sequence, castle, mansion, crashed spaceship, mine, stronghold, temple. This core identity will inform your game choices. If you want to put something in the dungeon, it has to be tied this identity in some way.

4. What's the Scale?

How long should it take to explore the dungeon? An hour? A session? An entire campaign?

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>>53244035
Diagraming

Grab a pen and a piece of paper. Draw a circle with "surface" in the top. Then start adding other circles with ideas you've come up with. This might take a while. Feel free to come back to this sheet over and over again as you think of new ideas or get rid of old ones.

For example, if you're working a wizard's tower, you might have circles that contain things like: alchemy lab, experiment cages, weird telescope, animated pants, skeleton butler, wand testing room.

Remember to come back to the core identity of the dungeon. Everything needs a reason. It doesn't need to be a very deep reason, but it does need to have one. If you really want to include a snake pit in your wizard's tower, think about why. Maybe the wizard really liked snakes, and used to take his ring of snake friendship and nap in the pit on cold winter nights. Cool, now you've got an item to add to the dungeon along with other clues (plush snake cozy in the bedroom, a fondness for slippers and mittens, etc.)

Once you've got a bunch of circles, draw a line from the "surface" circle to the first room/concept/idea you want your players to encounter. Work you way, circle by circle, until you've got a plan.

Practicalities

Remember that the dungeon was once used for something (unless it's a gygaxian deathtrap). People don't like hauling barrels of water up ten flights of stairs or dodging giant swinging blades while trying to visit a temple. If your dungeon was once inhabited, where did the inhabitants:

1. Bring in supplies and food
2. Prepare food
3. Eat food
4. Store supplies
5. Sleep

If your kitchen is six levels below the main entrance and only accessible by a 5' wide hallway, you need to explain why.

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>>53243742

The sass from this post killed my sides.

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>>53244041
Mapping

Before you start, close your eyes and imagine a typical room from your dungeon. What does it look like in your mind? If you're going to map an imaginary space, you need to be able to wander through it.

Unless you're playing online, keep your designs simple. For a really small dungeon, graph paper with 1 square = 1' might work, but the traditional 1 square = 5' or 10' is also handy. It's much easier to say "the room is 20' long and 30' wide. Your entrance is on the north side, 10' from the west wall." than it is to say "The room is a sort of blobby pear shape, with a wiggly end here and... oh, I'll just draw it for you." Alternatively, you can draw a map and cover it in sticky notes. As the party explores, they can peel off the notes to reveal new rooms. Make sure to add false notes and sections to conceal secret rooms.

Start with a sketch. On graph paper, outline the main entrance. As you add rooms, remember to think about their purpose and relationship, and link them accordingly. Look up some building plans and steal ideas. Don't worry too much about the layout at this stage, but get the core rooms down.

Take the wizard tower example. You started off thinking about a circular tower with 5 levels and a basement, but realized that circles are hard to draw. You therefore decided on a square tower, but with lots of little rooms sticking off, and a slight lean to the whole structure. The first room on the main floor is the entrance hall. You decide that your wizard used to receive many visitors, so there's a foyer (for waiting in line) and then a small consulting room. Everything here is designed to look impressive and magical, but it's all mostly junk and coloured glass.

>>53243957
>Why not just use the literal Save vs. Death
You could, if you're looking for something that scales and are okay with it favoring some classes over others, but speaking for myself, I'd want to set its parameters. If you're looking to alleviate low-level deaths, Save vs. Death may end up having a lower success rate than you want it to have. Conversely, at high levels, it may have a higher success rate than you want it to have, especially if casters have access to magic that can bring people back from the dead.

>>53243669
How different do you want it? A straight up new system for magic users, or just new fluff for how vancians do their thing?

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>>53244054
>>53244041
>>53244035
Anyway, that's the draft bit of my "How to Design a Dungeon" post that I'm still working on. Hope it helps.

>>53244041
>Everything needs a reason. It doesn't need to be a very deep reason, but it does need to have one.
Now this is an issue that not everyone will agree on. If you're running gonzo fantasy for example, not everything needs to "make sense". A wizard might have a pit of snakes in his tower just for shits and giggles.

>If your kitchen is six levels below the main entrance and only accessible by a 5' wide hallway, you need to explain why.
You really don't NEED to explain anything. Sweating over these simulationist details might be a factor in why you have problems accepting your own dungeon designs. Just don't try to overdo it. Remember it's all for fun and games.

>>53243669
Magic is struck from good intentions. When spells get minted or the day drags on... mages, like all men, grow sour and tired.

>>53242246
I have never had a campaign that included dragons be considered bad.

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>>53244191
>Now this is an issue that not everyone will agree on. If you're running gonzo fantasy for example, not everything needs to "make sense". A wizard might have a pit of snakes in his tower just for shits and giggles.
>You really don't NEED to explain anything

Absolutely. There's a whole intro section I didn't post that goes over "here are the different styles of design, here is mine".

You can very easily build an entire dungeon with tables and generators and it'll be just fine. The 4 styles I have listed are

1. Immersive (posted, design is based on real-world practicalities and themes)
2. Gonzo (design is based on theme first, fun second)
3. Referee (design is generated randomly, GM has little control, but design is "fair" and "balanced")
4. Anti-Dungeon (design is generated with an overall goal in mind, but the goal is on a meta level, not an in-game level)

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>>53244191
>Sweating over these simulationist details might be a factor in why you have problems accepting your own dungeon designs.

Oh right, and I>>53244090
am not
>>53243985
btw. I've got no problems accepting my dungeon designs, using this method. All you need is graph paper and caffeine.

>>53243742
>Skerples being THIS MAD from not liking his not!Toadslingers magic
He can do him, and you can do you. And we can all get along and brainstorm.

In other news, >>53208406 isn't dead yet.

Asked this last thread, but I thought I'd ask again. Has anyone here played Boot Hill 3rd Edition? How is it? I'm really jonesing for a Western RPG.

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>>53244350
Not mad, just sassy. This is my natural level of sass. And I'd be more inclined to brainstorm if the guy was a little more forthcoming in the ideas department. Just watching him go "nope, another!" like some welsh aristocrat inspecting his evening sheep isn't doing it for me. The man isn't even posting images.

>But all of this is only half the equation, the player half. The other half is the GM half: how do you get them to pick up the setting and wield it like a battleaxe? (Or a warhammer.) Gary Gygax gave us the answer. And then he immediately hid it from us. The answer is the Random Encounter Table, or Wandering Monster Table, or Random Dungeon Generator, and all those other wondrous time-killers in the back of the DMG. By stocking those tables, paying some attention to the probabilities, and adding modifiers here and there, you create an immediate, accessible method for GMs to understand your setting in the most visceral way possible: by co-creating it with you. They only have to read the setting bits they've generated, and they have a story and an adventure.
>Ken Hite

>>53244224
>GM has little control,
That's not how random tables are supposed to work at all.
Especially for tables you've made, altered, or done to death.

"The referee filters the table," is being generous. "The table pads the referee."
If you see something better while your eye wanders to your result, you go with that.
If reading something on the table gives you a better idea (that isn't on the table), you go with that.
If you feel like you know what the result should be, you don't even roll.

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>>53244466
>That's not how random tables are supposed to work at all.

It is if you're acting purely as a referee in a Players vs System game. You're there to make that interaction go smoothly. In most games absolutely, you're right. But if you're running a tournament style map, your job isn't to GM. The module as written does most of that. Your job is to deal with things the module doesn't cover, populate stuff according to the tables given to in the books. That's how you ensure "fairness". You take yourself and your desires out of the equation. You're like the banker+rulebook reader in Monopoly.

Does that sound unfun to you?

Well, then you can see why it's not that common of a style anymore. It's almost completely the opposite of how most modern GMing is done, and personally, that's for the best.

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>>53244414
>>53243669
Wizards are petty nobility from the Land of Dreams.
Spells are their vassals, and act like hirelings in all respects.

Casting a spell "wakes it up," back in the Land of Dreams.

>>53244489
>if you're running a tournament style map
I can change any detail I'd like if I'm running the Tomb of Horror.
Probably should, too. It's way too linear.

It's not, "if you're running a tournament style map" it's, "if you're running a game for a tournament."
And, "if you're running OSR in 2017" then you're not.

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>>53244325 #
>and caffeine
Are you plagued by the dual sensation of thirst and needing to piss?
It took me /forever/ to realize that wasn't a normal human experience.

Also, go to bed. I don't know your timezone, but I know it's late.

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>>53244514

Ok let me explain this again.

There are (IMO) 4 main styles of designing/running dungeons. You seem to be posting like there's only one, and telling me that there's one right way to do things. Quit it, you. You're missing the point.

The 4 styles (IMO) are:

1. Immersive. This has some of the styles you're describing. The GM designs based on a) the real world b) intuition and c) maybe some curated tables. This is the style most people use. Some of them go full ecology, some don't.

2. Gonzo. The focus isn't on immersion and design, but it's on fun and colour and theme instead. More curated tables. This is more of a "goal" difference than a "method" difference compared to Immersive.

99.99% of the stuff in these threads is one of those 2 styles.

3. Referee. This is the style you're beating your head against. There is NO GMING AS YOU KNOW IT in Refereed games. You act as the mediator between the module and the players. You don't get to pick SHIT. Roll on tables, build or generate rooms, keep it fair. You get to explore the dungeon with your players because NOBODY knows what's behind the next door. The downside is that you don't get to design anything. This style exists. It's out there. Maybe you don't like it but too fucking bad. If you want a list off flavours of candy you don't get to bitch about "pickle chili" being included (yes it's a real candy flavour).

4. Anti-Dungeon. Raggi.

And we're done.

So:

>I can change any detail I'd like if I'm running the Tomb of Horror.

GOOD YAY CLAP CLAP CLAP NOT THE POINT.

>>53244582
>You don't get to pick SHIT.
Arneson and Gygax both pulled monsters out of their asses to deal with problem characters or players, tables be damned!

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>>53244637
Exactly! It's like these styles are idealized tropes, where real gaming falls somewhere in the areas between them. Almost like an Alignment system, or politics, or virtually anything else. Doesn't make the ideals less real.

Plus, the real Referee crowd seems to be new-school revivalists. Like any new converts, they've taken things to fanatical levels. So it goes.

>>53241648
>When was the last time you played AD&D™?
Yesterday.

>>53241648
>When was the last time you played AD&D™?
Never because BECMI is the true patricians game.

>>53245359
>Never

If you've never even tried it, how do you know it sucks so bad?

>>53245373
By the smell of the neckbeards who crouch before their tomes, drooling for another sentence of gygaxian prose like an opium addict in his den, glaring at the collected masses and trying to proclaim themselves the true inheritors of D&D with no knowledge that it was little more than a cash grab by the very man whom they venerate.

In all seriousness, I'm just not keen on the separation of class and race though I do wish the races in BECMI could gain some more levels. In my games I house rule they can all get up to level 15 though it takes large amounts of XP to do so.

>>53244072

Different fluff for vancian magic.

Are there any big books of diseases and disease rules anywhere, or is the 1st edition AD&D DMG the closest thing to this?

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>>53245432
what exactly is your xp total, and how MUCH xp do pcs gain from per session at those levels?

>>53246062
your best bet is finding a detailed blog post lol :)

>>53244489
I try to design my games to referee style

Exept /I/ write the modules. As in, I prepare things ahead of time, with random tables that I >>53244489
put a lot of work into, and hten I use the tables for monsters, treasure and traps.

>>53241965
>Beyond the Wall
Is very good, but it's not really pure D&D, what with it being all folklore-y.
Still, could be cool. Especially if you use the chargen system.

If you're worried about lethality, make sure your players are encouraged to get hirelings, and lots of them.
That way you've got meatshields, and even if one of the PCs kicks it they can take over a hireling and play them

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>>53246062
http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2016/06/the-glog-diseases.html

And I just wrote a thing on the Plague, if that's useful.
>>53242230

When did initiative become the first thing one does in combat? In B/X some actions have to be declared before initiative is rolled, like moving out of combat and casting a spell. Why did that seemingly disappear?

>>53248009
Not sure. People probably liked knowing their order before making their actions known.

>>53248009
I run 2nd edition AD&D, and I typically have my players roll initiative at the same time along with all their other rolls. It works well enough.

>>53247583
>http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2016/06/the-glog-diseases.html

I don't care much for the gonzo disease spirit fluff.

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>>53243669
All spells are actually scrolls.
MUs paint them from their blood, and sustain can only sustain so many of them.
Scrolls found in dungeons are spells that have either gone missing or outlasted their MU.

>>53248240
So if a magic-user dies, his body will immediately shit out all the spells he had memorized?

>>53248274
No. They don't memorize spells, they carry scrolls. When they die, all the scrolls they carry continue to work.
If they lose the scroll, they can't write a new one in that "slot" until the scroll is used or otherwise destroyed.

>>53248240
>skin scrolls

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>>53242292
Magic is more than just the weird, the sort of things that wouldn't happen in real world. Magic has no rules. Magic is chaos. Magic is a piece of irrationality and utter illogicality brought to a realm of logic and reason from which it seeks to escape.

When a wizard memorizes a spell, he snatches some of this chaos and stores it to his head. As a result he himself becomes less a part of this world. High level wizards only barely touch the same realm as their companions. Possible benefits include resistance or immunity to normal weapons, for how can they be touched if they're barely here? Some of the many drawbacks are detachment issues and lack of empathy, even utter madness.

In case of more scientific worlds, a wizard such charged will come to conflict with all science and technology. Put him against a computer and the machine will fry and the wizard will have pounding headaches. A powerful mage stuck in a high-tech city could easily kill him as the chaos in his head struggles with all the reason and logic around it and tears him apart from within.

If a wizard is slain violently and unwillingly, those spells will tear out of his body and rip it apart. In case of low-level wizards, or those that have nearly exhausted their spells in their final bid to escape death, it will simply rot and decay their body to a skeletal husk, if that. If a powerful wizard with his head full of chaos ever dies, the resulting explosion can wipe out everything around him and leave a permanent scar upon the earth.

But if the wizard embraces his end and chooses to go peacefully, his body will simply disappear. Remarkably few mages ever do this.

Hey /osrg/, non-regular here with a question I figured you guys would have the answer to.

People complain all the time about the newer editions of D&D (and similar games) not having sufficient rules for "crafting." People want to brew potions, people want to construct magic items, and people take issue with there not being full tables and shit to do so.

But I'm pretty sure AD&D didn't have any crafting tables, or rules for building armor, and from what I've read most OSR games don't either. You guys seem to get along just fine without it. How did AD&D historically handle the wizard who went "hey I want to brew a potion of x," and how do you deal with it in these newer games?

I'm a GM at the end of his rope who has players refusing to shut the fuck up about every system I run having crafting rules that are either "insufficient" or "too restrictive"

How did you deal with this in the "good old days"

>>53243964
This sounds silly until you realise you can stab the enemy wizard in the fireballs.

>>53248797
AD&D did in fact have some tables and rules for that. Dunno about Basic.

>>53248797
OS crafting is generally pretty minimal - it's 3e (and the dreaded viiiiidya) that made crafting a major thing, although you could probably find anything in late 2e.

Man, now I miss Vanguard. That was a clusterfuck of an MMO, but three different levelling tracks (and quest-lines) for combat, diplomacy (a card game) and crafting (crunchy! failable! minigame!) was good fun.

>>53248797
There are some guidelines for brewing potions in the AD&D DMG. It's basically just that it costs a bit of money, takes a bit of time, and you need a specialized ingredient for the type of potion you want to make.

There are also rules for creating scrolls, holy/unholy water, new spells and magic items. Generally the rules for these are "you must be a magic user/cleric of a certain level and spend a large amount of money".

>>53248797
That's 3.5, closest thing I remember from AD&D is Tinker Gnomes - think WoW goblins.

In the old days, it took time and money to brew potions and make scrolls (and depending on the version you're using and your read on the rules, what level the caster is)

For other magic items, my rule is 'nobody knows' (or everyone has an opinion, but nobody really knows)

>>53248797
>How did AD&D historically handle the wizard who went "hey I want to brew a potion of x,"
Potions and scrolls require the caster be 9th level

Scrolls had an 20% chance of being accidentally cursed, -5% for paper, +5% for papyrus, -1%/level of caster, +1%/level of spell
Costs aren't discussed, but you're expected to mount adventures to find rare materials
Time isn't discussed, but you're expected to have large downtimes. So just fold it into that

Potions cost 200-1000gp (ref's choice) and require a 2000+ gp lab (which costs 10% it's value/month in maintenance)
30% chance you accidentally made poison or drugs, -1%/100gp, -1%/level of caster

Proper magic items are made with the 6th level (caster of 12th level) spell Enchant an Item
It literally says, "lol aks ur dm"
DMG says, "lol. y du u hav a 12th lvl player. maek some thin up"
Unless the item is limited use, it also requires the 8th level (caster of 16th level) spell Permanency, which decreases CON by 1 each cast

>>53248797
B/X has simple rules for producing magic items. Basically it's a simple cost + time calculation, with special materials left to the DM to decide (so that can be an adventure in itself).

There are also rules for building a stronghold based on things like wall length and number of buildings (you're expected to draw up a plan of the place). It has a few cheats to keep things simple.

Also missing from some newer games is researching and creating new spells, which basically boils down to "it costs a few thousand gold and the DM decides how the spell works".

If you want something more in-depth, try ACKS.

>>53248997
>DMG says, "lol. y du u hav a 12th lvl player. maek some thin up"
Ah, forgot! It also says to hire skilled craftsmen.
Wizards don't have time to learn trade skills.
Wizards are just there to enchant the newly made item.

>>53248921
If by vidya you mean 4e - no crafting there.

>>53249184
No, I mean literally video games. They tend to have way more crafting in them than RPGs, especially MMOs.

...and no, I don't mean 4e when I say MMOs, jesus christ.

>>53242230
awesome

>>53242960
half of the fun is surviving the whole ordeal and watching how the world is changing

>>53245432
I bet you're tons of fun to have at the table.

>>53243669
"Magic" has nothing to do with the Magic "User"
They're entirely natural phenomenon. Extremely rare, but entirely natural.

Spell "memorization" is actually extensive augury. You arrange your day so that spells "coincidentally" occur when you need them to.
Magic Users have augury down to a science, but haven't worked around the cryptic bullshit. Yet.

Bite off more than you can chew, and you misinterpret enough of your day plan to miss random spells.

>>53248240
All scrolls are "cursed" to some, but work perfectly fine to others.
This is the bit of the wizard in the scroll showing displeasure with it's owner.
Sometimes this is an alignment discrepancy.
Sometimes the scroll just doesn't like you.

Unless facing death, Wizards claim they'd sooner want to lose their life than lose a spell.
They will however, sell spells to trusted business partners.
These spells are often alchemically treated to combust at some set time.

Wizards with the clout to attract apprentices are always eager to do so.
The standard apprentice's fare is paid with future spells.

Many wizards die writing themselves fully into spells.
Apprentices often do this by mistake, their teachers are rarely complain.
Old wizards (with good vaults) "make their afterlife" deliberately, old wizards rightfully fear death.

Old spells have sponged enough magic out of the world to influence their surroundings.
In extreme cases, these are called "Liches."

>>53241648
2 years ago.
>Stumble into a newly-minted Baron and his freshly-built keep.
>He offers us lodging and shit, then tries to punk us
>Turns out he was some sort of evil magic user who murdered the real owner of the keep.
>Party chides me for not detecting evil in the first place. (Level 6 cleric)
>Evil guy tries to use some sort of levitation spell so he can lob stuff at us from on high.
>I dispel magic
>He falls 50 feet for 15d6damage, because Unearthed Arcana.
>Dead
>We seize a Well of Many Worlds
>accidentally fuck up our neighborhood in Baldur's Gate when we fail to observe any kind of security protocol
>Ravenloft refugees everywhere

It was a blast.

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Is it any good?

>>53252479
Closer to 3rd edition than Basic or Advanced, more reliant on checks and DCs and such, but player characters still die a lot if they're not clever and it has a lot of good stuff to say about philosophy behind monsters, magic, and treasure.

It's good. Not my main OSR game, but still.

>>53252479
Yes very

>>53252479
It's basically watered down WotC 3e with Craaaaazy~™ Magickz©.
I won't speak for 3.5, but 3.0 was actually OK at dungeon crawling.

And DCCs changes to 3.0 are (mostly) beneficial.
It expects you to have Zocchi dice or phones at the table tho.

>>53252616
Just by virtue of casters not being gods comparisons to 3.5 can be misleading

>>53252616
>It expects you to have Zocchi dice or phones at the table tho.
Not really. The funky dice can be simulated with normal polyhedrons very easily.

>>53253116
To replicate a die in a finite number of steps, you need some combination of dice that contain all it's prime factors.
The standard polyhedra provide 2, 3, and 5. If you try to replicate dice divisible by other primes, you're going to have a bad time.

>>53253299
Nah. In a real world a d8 coupled with a control die to determine whether to add +8 is just as good as a d16.

>>53252797
>comparisons to 3.5 can be misleading
Yeah it's not like DCC uses 3.5's BAB, or 3.5's Saving Throws, or 3.5's Initiative rules, or 3.5's . . .

>>53253299
Or you can simply roll the next biggest die, and reroll overflowing numbers.
Roll d8 instead of a d7, and reroll results of 8

>>53253357
d16: 2*2*2*2

d8: 2*2*2
control die: 2*whatever
d8 w/ control die: 2*2*2*2*whatever
d8 w/ control die, discarding whatever: 2*2*2*2

>is just as good as a d16.
Yeah, because that's exactly what I just described.
Now replicate a d14 without using a d7 or saying "re-roll". I'll wait.

>>53253442
>To replicate a die in a finite number of steps,

>>53253446
>Now replicate a d14 without using a d7 or saying "re-roll". I'll wait.

"For d14 and d16, roll d20 and ignore rolls above the die-facing threshold."

Straight from the book.

>>53253519
>or saying "re-roll"
I think he really doesn't like re-rolls.

>>53253519
If you roll a 19, you just don't get a result? /s

>>53253425
It uses a barebones d20 skeleton as the game engine. It doesn't have any of the extra useless bits from D&D 3.x such as skills and feats.

There is no character building or customization in DCC other than class and even that's not truly a free pick. If none of your 0 level peasants were demihumans then no elves/dwarves/halflings for you.

>>53253446
D8 with a control die that adds a value of 7. Reroll 8s. Very quick and easy. Rerolling a die every now and then is not that hard.

>>53253537
Re-rolling once is distracting. Re-rolling twice in a row will make you lose track of what why you were even rolling dice.
You can find the thought again pretty quickly; but once you've killed the mood, the mood is dead.

>>53253469
I wasn't aware that created a feedback loop of infinite steps.
Seriously though, it's such a minor thing to reroll a die from time to time. I understand the need to have it properly simulated though, and it's one of the reasons I had to skip on DCC.

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>>53253553
>/s

>>53253620
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+infinite
Infinite means "not finite," "continuing indefinitely," or "impossible to measure."

Taking 1,000,000 steps at most is finite.
Taking 2.5 steps on average but having no guarenteed upper bound is infinite.

>>53253783
This is the issue of our generation.

>>53253783
That is a fair point, and it's been noted.

>>53253802
I suppose you're fine with normalcy being a word.

>>53253929
It was a word as soon as it was said.

Ugly as shit though.

Sheesh, finding fourth level stuff is hard. There's about a million level 1 adventures, and maybe a thousand starting from level 6, but for some reason in between those two there's rather a drought.

Any good suggestions?

>>53254048
Can't you have your players do something else for the two levels until they get to 6?

>>53254076
But how do they gain levels if there are no adventures?

>>53254048
Why not write an adventure or two to cover the gap?

>>53254048
Scale an adventure up or down.
Or just do off-level adventures.

>>53254048
plenty of modules are for levels 1-6
4 is between 1 and 6

>>53254048
Weren't most old adventures written under the assumption of "a total party level of X", ie: a 5th level adventure could be for a party of a 3rd level and 2 1st levels?

>>53254048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_modules

http://www.purpleworm.org/tools/DungeonMagazineIndex.htm

Stop being lazy.

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>>53254327
>recommending someone use Dungeon magazine

>>53254459
Dungeon Magazine has about three good adventures, but I don't think any of them are for fourth level.

>>53254459
Dungeon magazine actually has some good gems hidden among the bog of shit. That said the hidden gems are still much more verbose then they need to be because "I need enough words to fill this magazine problem".

Luckily Bryce Lynch is doing gods work and has reviewed almost all of the issues on his blog:
http://tenfootpole.org

>>53254048
That's because at level 4 the campaign generally develops a flow and it's harder to introduce new elements. Most DMs start developing there own content here, and it's much more fun for a module writer to write level 1 stuff. I think you have a fair amount of higher level stuff too though because then module writer can put cool shit in it that would instantly destroy level 1s.

That being said there's still plenty of level 4 stuff, can you be more specific with what your looking for?

>>53242097
i think OSR games, more than "Story-Driven" are like "Story-Generating"
in 3.5/PF/5E there is more development of story on associated modules, who try to use the newer mechanics to advance the story and in general the game plays more like an establishing play script with options. It's more like "you have to see how we changed this established world"

on OSR, there's less defined story at the beginning but you can bet your ass that after successfully clearing a dungeon you'll come back with great deeds to tell, like "we entered this mysterious place and look at all that happened"

How does Reincarnation work exactly? Do you come back as a person at the equivalent age of your dead character, or would you reincarnate as a young adult? If the latter, couldn't you use a whole bunch of reincarnations for immortality?

>>53255864
>How does Reincarnation work exactly?
You reincarnated at some point in the past, but your memories only returned once the spell was cast.
Or maybe the spell embeds your memories in someone living nearby. I'm not a cop.

You can come back older or younger. What you come back as may have a different life expectancy.
>couldn't you use a whole bunch of reincarnations for immortality?
Sure, if you've got someone to keep casting it.

have you used a dungeon from a videogame for your crawl /OSR/?

i think should be nice to get some unsuspecting new players into the dungeons of wizardry, eye of the beholder and dungeon master.

>>53256115
I used a bit of Hexen once.

>>53256115
Zelda dungeons are nice in that the 2D ones have maps that look like skulls or monsters, and the 3D ones have designs that encourage non-linear problem solving rather than just brute combat.

>>53254048
Arsenal of the Warrior Princess is 4th-5th level.

>>53254459
>>53254483
>WAAAAAH I WANT MATERIAL
>WAAAAAH BUT THAT'S SHIT

Then write the module yourself, fatty.

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>>53256195
>the 3D ones have designs that encourage non-linear problem solving

>>53256289
Not that Anon, but Wind Waker has great dungeons.
Zelda II doesn't fit into either category, but again, great dungeons.

>>53255864
http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2014/09/7-myths-everyone-believes-about-druids.html
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/uncharted-realms/persistence-memory-2013-01-16

>>53255864
>couldn't you use a whole bunch of reincarnations for immortality?
Assuming you're being reincarnated into random things, this might not be as good as it sounds.

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>>53256115
You could pretty much run Ultima Underworld as-is.

>>53256844
I must find more of this.

>>53253519
If you're only concerned with the average number (that is, you're not rolling on a table or something, but are looking at something like damage, a skill roll, etc.), then you can just subtract 10 from the number if it goes the maximum result. So if you're rolling a d16, 17 becomes 7, 18 becomes 8, 19 becomes 9, 20 becomes 10. You will end up with an average of 8.5, just as if you had rolled an actual d16.

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>>53256871
The game is great if you love a good dungeon crawl.

It was before my time so I can't say what was in the box, but the GOG release has that level 1 map, a sort of gazetteer, and a cluebook.

The cluebook is great because it has a translation of the lizardmen language. You can figure it out through trial and error in the game which is a lot of fun, but the cluebook means you get a lot of extra detail from what they're saying.

>>53257038
i recently tried the first wizardry and im astonished of how distilled is the dungeon-crawling aspect. in fact this seems OSR in video game form.

i've seen people doing nice things with Legend of Grimrock level editor, basically should be pretty great to do a dungeon there to project on a screen while your party navigates it. Not enemies at all, just the maze to have a visual reference.

Should I throw my players whom are new to RPG's headfirst into the deep end of the pool with a large sprawling dungeon, or lead with baby steps and a smaller, relatively less complex dungeon? Yes, I know about the starter dungeon.

>>53257506
Try something around the middle, like the Village of Hommlet. Larger than baby steps, pretty deadly, but not a complete megadungeon slaughterfest.

>>53257506
smaller dungeons at first. you can balance them or lean them heavily to one aspect (combat, puzzles, traps,etc)

>>53257506
I tried throwing new roleplayers into a large megadungeon once. Not the best idea as it involves a lot of backtracking and trying to rest inbetween sessions in the middle of the dungeon.
Something like 1-3 medium or largish sized levels is a good place to start. (Dyson Logos has a lot of good maps to steal.) When designing, I'd recommend either balancing them or make them lean towards one aspect, maybe on a per section or per level basis.

>>53257506
They're both fine. Just set expectations properly.

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Tell me about the new rule you're thinking of adding to your game, /osrg/.

>>53259505
I've been skimming through Fight On! magazines for stuff to add. Most of it involves spellcasting and thief skills: for the rest I've found more suitable rules elsewhere.

You could maybe cram more spells in your head in exchange for penalties and chance of brain damage upon spellcasting - I don't envision many players to ever try this, though, so there's probably little point. The thief skills involve turning the skill checks into saving throws, which sounds about right.

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>>53259505

The rule is that my game and group exist.

>>53259505
I'm overhauling my combat system at the moment?

>>53259674
Are you sure?

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>>53259505
Nothing special. If I can find a good class to replace Illusionist with I'm gonna add that. Maybe Alchemist.

>>53259791
Very sure.
It's simpler and more congruous with the movement and resource rules.

>>53259828
Why not necromancer?

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>>53259870
Too specific imo. I like the classes to be pretty thematically broad. Kind of the same reason why I'm dropping assassin.

What's the best way to organize your homebrew document?

Two columns, or just a single normal layout?

>>53260278
Two columns.

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>>53259505
Gonna allow Clerics and Magic-Users to attempt to recast expended spells.

Roll d20+Modifier (Wis for Clerics, Int for M-U's) over 11+Spell Level.

Failure results in some awful results, ala DCC or Wonder and Wickedness.

>>53260527
Seems way too attribute focused.
Maybe tie it to level or running tally of cast spells instead?

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I've touched up my homebrew from advice from the last thread. This game is starting to feel really good to me now.

>>53253442
Where does re-rolling end? Re-rolling a to-hit if you miss? Re-rolling your character's attributes or hit points if you don't like them?

A roll of the die, aka a casting of lots, is an appeal to the divine insight of the gods, and the results must be accepted however they lay or the gods have been insulted. Pestering them with inefficient schemes that involve re-rolling tempts divine retribution.

To simulate the roll of an unavailable die, patricians such as the pontifex maximus use the "if over, then under" method. This uses two dice cast simultaneously, one bigger and one smaller than the unavailable die. E.g for a d7, roll a d8 and a d6. If the bigger die goes over, the result on the smaller die is used. The technique is pproximate as it must be since as >>53253299 notes an exact solution is not available.

>>53261566
>Hint: All that shit is exactly what all "old school" RPGs were, to a T, and anybody who wants to play them either has their rose-tinted glasses firmly stapled to their eyesockets or they're some kid who wasn't even born during the heydey of these games and were convinced by some grey-bearded old faggot that they were the pinnacle of gaming achievement.

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>>53261704
(You) aren't going to get any more attention that way, you know.

>>53260918
I don't think I've seen initiative handled that way before. Pretty neat.

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How do you do first level hit dice and health points?

Personally, I think a good rule of thumb is to default everyone's health points to 2 at the minimum, even for the shitty d4 MU. The reason why to do this is so that the first combat session can still have some suspense to it, getting hit means the enemy could still roll a 1 and not kill you, and you could survive a very shitty magic missile, or 1 round around something with an aura that deals 1 damage per round, and so on.

>>53262031
I'm a little odd in that I always allow maximum hit dice at first level.

>>53244191
>Not wanting nonsensical explanations like "he likes to wear his ring of snake friendship and sleep in the pit" for gonzo adventures.

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Noob Group 2 just had their first session. The houndling (corgiling) thief was eaten by a giant snow eel and lost an arm, 1 point of intelligence, and all dignity. The Elf Wet Nurse Wizard (yes, wet nurse is apparently a profession you can roll), went in to save the Thief and was also devoured, but managed to stab the beast to death from the inside.

The barbarian failed 6 fear tests and got stuck in a snowbank while slowly suffocating.

The rest of the party watched from a safe distance, and heroically swooped in to rescue the others... once the threat had passed. They'll go far.


Also, the Elf Wizard can cast only 2 spells: Speak with Birds and Unseen Orchestra. She has discovered that mountain eagles are sociopaths.

The Summoner can summon a baby-seeking arrowhead and a giant warm pig.

>>53262174
I do the same thing.

>>53262686
>giant snow eel
>snowbank
Did you draw another rookie delve?

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>>53262809
Yup! They're having fun. Giant blizzard eels, scald zombies, and barbarian renovations seem to be popular.

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>>53259505
There's a 30 year comet coming up that I didn't know what to do with.


Its an omen of the BLACK PLAGUE

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>>53263290
>There's a 30 year comet coming up that I didn't know what to do with.

So you track comets in your game? How does that work?

>>53263290
New DM here, what's the best way of rolling treasure for a dungeon I'm working on and would you happen to have any more of those tables?

>>53263290
>One must never place a loaded rifle on the stage if it isn't going to go off.
>It's wrong to make promises you don't mean to keep.

>>53263367
They'll realistically go as far as floor 3 at level 1. They will take some treasure from those floors, too.
They should be able to get enough treasure to get enough of their party to level 2 to be safe on floor 2.

Find how much xp your party needs for a level up.
Double that amount (to account for skipped treasure and xp wasted on characters who die).
The /first floor/ of your dungeon should have that much treasure.

>>53263412
Sounds good. Should level ups happen in the middle of the crawl? When they rest? When they take the loot out of the dungeon?

I was planning on having a big fearsome sleeping monster on floor 3 that could wake up and wander around the place. Would that be unreasonable, or would it be on them to decide whether or not they should take the risk? Should I maybe put it on floor 2 instead?

>>53256153
Could be worse. "Hey guys, why are we in e1m1?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sQFx_e_0jc

>>53262403
One day he'll be able to summon a tentacle beast and sleep in its comfy embrace, but until then this is the best he can do.

>>53263468
>Should level ups happen in the middle of the crawl?
I give xp when the money gets spent. It encourages people to stay poor.
Plenty of clones give xp for exiting the dungeon with treasure.

There's really no reason *not to* give xp mid dungeon though.
I guess it reduces the risk of [pic]?

>Should I maybe put it on floor 2 instead?
Put it wherever they enter floor 2. They have to brush up against it as they sneak around it.
Roll some dice. For the clatter. If they say they're being careful, they get past without issue.
On the way out of the dungeon, it's gone. The next time they enter, it starts wandering floor 3.
Leave (or make) some hints if they try to investigate.

>>53254048
Do your own stuff. It's time to become a real DM.

>>53263312
THere's like 14 planets, 3 comets, the first thing I did when I mad the setting was work out their relative position and period, for whatever reason.

I'm not super-familial with running OSR games, but the setting I'm working on has a really fairy-tale/folklore vibe to it and I feel like Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures would work really well given the theme.

Do those of you with experience in the system have any impressions? Is it good?

>>53263468
>When they take the loot out of the dungeon?
This. As long as the loot is in the dungeon, the characters have not secured it.

>>53263609
Awesome poster is awesome

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>>53263558
...forgot pic.

>>53263558
>>53263678
Alright, thanks a lot guys.

Although that brings up the question of "what do they do with All That Shit™" after they leave the dungeon. I had planned for there to be a nearby village but nobody would be able to buy the goods they're hocking, presuming it's not all just coins. Population and settlements in my setting are pretty sparse and far apart.

>>53263825
It's one of those things where you as a DM have to improvise and encourage the players to roleplay and do creative stuff with the money. None of the rulesets have clearly defined moneysinks in them short of buying big boats and stuff like that until they hit a certain level where they can start building strongholds.

>>53263825
Boom-town price markups.
Booze and Whores™
Buying a rounds (of Booze)
Hiring trainers (to teach you whatever)
Wunderkammer
Buying exotic (foreign) books
Hiring trainers (to teach you foreign languages)
Send it back home, to the mountains
Tithes, tithes, tithes
Pretend to be a philanthropist
Failed business ventures
Non-adventuring parties (buying rounds (of Whores))
Yet more tithes
Hiring minstrels (to lie for you)
Bribes to the mafia
Bribes to the guard
Actual taxes

Unless they mention saving for a rainy day fund, they blow half their savings each weak.

>>53260918
Makes more sense now. I like it. Initiative is interesting, if you're dual wielding do you roll both dice and take the highest for initiative too? What spell list do you use this with and what do you do for starting equipment?

>>53257506
Remember that new players need time to get into the rhythm of answering "what do you do" after your descriptions. A simple dungeon gives less overhead.

With more players experience play will move faster so that more complex dungeon start becoming more rewarding.

>>53263890
>>53263901

I meant less so with "what are they going to do with all the money" and more "how are they going to convert treasure into currency or at least something that doesn't take up so much space if nobody can afford to take it off their hands".

I was thinking about it, they're in the mountains. They can hide it in a nearby cave maybe and come back to it later. I was also maybe thinking a wishing well type deal where they can sacrifice treasure for maybe a blessing, weird merchants who take tangible goods and give you asbtract concepts or other weird shit for them, I'm just spitballing I guess.

>>53263992
If they didn't come with a cart, and they weren't withing half a day of buying a cart, and it's the first adventure, you should not have given them awkward treasure.
On their way down the mountain, they get passed by a guy with a cart. If they ask to buy it, he'll mark it up super high and insist they buy his crops too.

They can buy it, or lease it, or kill him, or head to town and back. Or whatever else floats their boat.

>>53263992
Ah yeah misread the question a bit.

There are two obvious options:

1. Handwave it and just have someone in the village buy that stuff. Or have a traveling merchant come by.
2. Why convert treasure into coins? Just use whatever valuables the PCs might have to pay for goods they want to buy. This can even lead to funny moments of role playing.

I think option 2 is the best one.

>>53264040
>you should not have given them awkward treasure.
Absolutely wrong. Awkward treasure is definitely in the spirit of old school gaming and it's too bad if the characters don't happen to have a cart or a mule to haul that stuff around. It's their own fault.

Don't adapt the dungeon to cater for the characters. It needs to go the other way around: the players and their characters need to adapt to the dungeon.

>>53264134
>Don't adapt the dungeon to cater for the characters. It needs to go the other way around: the players and their characters need to adapt to the dungeon.

Some of these players have never played an RPG before, shouldn't I be a bit more lenient?

Or maybe that could be a part of it, they could discover some awkward treasure, think "man, maybe we should have brought a cart", go back, buy a cart at massive mark up, and return after learning a valuable lesson?

>>53264134
>If they didn't come with a cart, and they weren't withing half a day of buying a cart, and it's the first adventure,

>It's their own fault.

>>53263610
It does a folklore thing, but from a more young adult fiction perspective. Not necessarily cutesy, just not geared towards high fatality murder hole fantasy vietnam, more towards struggle over adversity togetherness?

The magic system is a bit different, sorted into tiers of cantrips, spells and rituals that all work somewhat differently as scale rather than just spell level. I like it. Seems like rituals could easily mesh with wolfpacks & the winter snow
cave rituals, but I haven't had a chance to try that.

Character/village generation is great, gets everyone involved right away, has background built into stat generation. Gives you a map to doodle on which I'm a sucker for. The further afield campaign map is a lot of fun too.

Haven't used all the threats/scenarios/playbooks. The threats/scenarios I have used worked well as outlines with hooks and some random tables but you'll need to flesh them out more.

>>53264157
>Or maybe that could be a part of it, they could discover some awkward treasure, think "man, maybe we should have brought a cart", go back, buy a cart at massive mark up, and return after learning a valuable lesson?
Exactly this. They will never learn if they're not given the opportunity to learn.

>>53264157
That might be a better solution. The first part reaches that there is treasure in the dungeon; the second that treasure can sometimes be unwieldy. Maybe have a third where treasure can come in mundane form like a monster having guarded boxes of spice? [Spoiler]not Melange[/Spoiler]

>>53264157
If they don't have a cart but are decently clever they might try and bury or otherwise stash it somewhere. Gives you more to play with and complicate later.

Some people are more into learning via punishment than others. ymmv.

>>53263928

Thanks! I'll work on that next.

>>53264249
>Some people are more into learning via punishment than others. ymmv.
Just to clarify to you and others who might read this: not converting unwieldy treasure into handy coins or jewels just because the party doesn't have a cart has nothing to do with punishment.

>>53264294
Good call. I missed that part. Time for bed.

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>>53259828
I'd sooner cut Magic-User than Illusionist. MUs tend to be all over the place.
I won't say Illusionist is a better archetype, but at least it knows what it's about.

>>53253620
I never had a problem with DCC because I have a job (so I just bought the cheap ass dice).

>>53253357
>>53253299
2: a coin or even/odd
3: d6
7: don't think it uses that
16: d8 + d2 to add 8 or not
24: d8 + d3 (add 8 0-2 times)
30: d10 + d3 for tens digit

there may be more but it's easy enough

>>53265203
From your post, I honestly can't tell if you read >>53253299.

>>53262845
What does this mean exactly and why do you keep posting it? Honestly curious.

>>53263992
>They can hide it in a nearby cave maybe and come back to it later.

Screw this place, I'm going to make my own dungeon! With blackjack, and hookers!

>>53265633
It's from Veins of the Earth.

And it means exactly what it says.
When you're stressed, you forget details.
Regardless of stress, you never forget intent.
Details are nice. But if you want something done, focus on intent.

>>53265893
so you're saying a good story comes from emotions?

woah

>>53265893
Yes, I know what it says and where it comes from. And in practice that means...?

>>53265908
No, it's says good planning and good conduct lean heavily on instinct.
And I'm not saying it, Patrick Stuart said it.

If you don't know who that is, he's got a Gygax-Arneson dynamic with Raggi.
Raggi writes too much and he writes too little, so nothing either writes is actually usable.

>muh cult of personality
Also he has a decent blog: https://falsemachine.blogspot.com

Why can't I have a cool popular blog everyone likes?

>>53266879
You can! All you need to do is make content that people want.

>>53266879
Why would you want one?

>>53262174
I thought that was a relatively common houserule.

>>53241648
>When was the last time you played AD&D™?

Never played. I have the books though. I might get around to it when I tire of playing retroclones of diffrent stripes.

>>53241648
>When was the last time you played AD&D™?
Just this past weekend. I've been running Keep on the Borderlands for some buddies from school.

>>53243499
>Anyway, anyone else use the Catholic Church in D&D?

Yes. My current lotfp campaign is set a few months before the Swedes enter the 30 years war and religion is a very important theme. Not that the players get deeply involved in religious politics. Atleast not yet, we shall see if they go that way.

Anyone got a list of some interesting magical items?

One of my players, an Elf Wizard, commissioned a magical dagger to be forged.

>>53269512
I gotta' go to class. Here's a few:

A -1 dagger that ALWAYS points north. Develop fighting techniques around it's pseudo-immobility, and it's effectively a +2 dagger.
+[charge] dagger. Gains a charge when used in suicide. Loses a charge and casts ESP on all within 40' if damage rolls equal or under charge count.
A +0 dagger that can transform into any article of cloth no smaller than a hat and no larger than a coat.
A +0 dagger that fluids phase through.

How do I encourage newbies to OSR to explore a sandbox?

I keep throwing in hints and rumors but they basically sit around in the tavern waiting for the noticeboard/innkeeper/stranger to tell them exactly what to do next.

>>53266879
All of the "cool popular blogs" are overrated mediocrities anyway. I have no why goblinpunch gets shilled so hard, it's garbage.

>>53269677
Whelp, I showed up a bit early. Here's some more I thought up on the road.

Hollow handled dagger sponges up lamp oil. Blade can be ignited (gives light as a torch).
If sharpened on a gem any etching or wounds made by the dagger transmit any light that shines through the gem. Can be reattuned by wiping the blade with silk.
Dagger turns into a 2HD skeleton when buried in dirt. Does not turn back.
Dagger does those perspective changing gimmicks from old cartoons. But only for elves.
Dagger (handle and all) vanishes in the light. Normal dagger in darkness, +3 dagger against armored foes in light, cannot harm unarmored foes in light.
+1 dagger can be blown like a piece of grass to Speak With Grass.
-1 dagger grows boar's hair all across the blade. +4 to saves against disease if used as a toothbrush. Effectively a normal dagger is kept shaved.

>>53269872
Have the noticeboard/innkeeper/stranger tell them what to do next, but not how and only roughly where.

>tfw playing Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale (AD&D 2.0) religiously for the past few days has made me want to play the real thing but no interested friends
Also, how do you guys feel about class kits? That's one of my favorite things about AD&D2.

>>53263992
This problem begs the question of how they got to a remote dungeon many days from civilization.

>>53264157
Good approach.

Another option for the players might be to grab whatever valuables are most portable, and just be happy they made off with that.

My feeling is that a dungeon delve should rarely be so leisurely that the players can haul off every coin and tapestry (ie "clearning the dungeon", like in a video game). More often it's like a late-night smash and grab robbery.

Then they have the challenge of selling the treasure without tipping off other treasure hunters, so they can go back for more.

>>53270097
"I'd rather be original than good" is a cancerous mindset, but he somehow puts out good content almost as often as not.
That aside, I agree with you regarding the postmodernist circlejerk blogs.

>>53264162
I was going to mention that I was surprised they could make it that far into the frontier at low level (with no baggage train, etc).

>>53270437
My current 2e campaign takes a lot from the first Icewind Dale and basically takes place in the same area, just with a bunch of other towns and stuff added. The party's headed south to Mirabar right now, though.

>>53270443
>More often it's like a late-night smash and grab robbery.
Never seen my players do this, but an actual tomb robbing trick is to stuff kindling on all the treasure and torch the room.
Gets all the gold off the not-gold.

>>53265203
d5=d10/2


d7, d14, d18?

>>53270645
>d7
d2, a result of 1 is 1d4, a result of 2 is 4+1d3.
>d14
d2, a result of 1 is 1d8, a result of 2 is 8+1d6.
>d18
d2, a result of 1 is 1d10, a result of 2 is 10+1d8.

It's not pretty, but it works and does not require any rerolls.

>>53270771
>does not require any rerolls.
>half the time a new roll is needed
>no rerolls

>>53270771
It's not accurate either, but you know, fuck it, it's not like rolling a die produces a truly fair result most of the time, either due to shitty die, shitty rolling technique or location, or a combination.

>>53270796
You're not re-rolling any of the dice, but instead rolling a new die based on the result of the other die.

>>53270437
I play light enough systems that I'd sooner write a new class than a new kit, but for 2e they work quite well.
Bugs me that Paladin, Ranger, Illusionist (et al.), Druid, and Bard aren't kits though.

>>53271090
But if bard were a kit, then the awesome bard kits themselves probably wouldn't exist.

>>53270771
If you're skewing your curve, I'd sooner use >>53260932

>>53271116
For how many published kits encroached on each other's fluff, I don't seen your point.

>>53271090
Couldn't you just use the class-building rules from the DMG to remake them?

>>53264932
Some of us would have to import them, you know.
For multiple players.
The shipping is ludicrous.

>>53265345
His example is actually, for once, finite.
Still not really convenient.

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>someone on craigslist emails me saying he has "80-ish AD&D and early D&D books"
>lives over an hour away
>ask for a list or some pictures
>never responds again

>something like this has happened at least 5 times this year

>>53270608
I remember that as well! though it does destroy any art or historical value (which may or may not translate into cash value when you fence it).

I meant more in the sense of grabbing the most valuable thing you can get your hands on, then running for your life--even if it means leaving behind a hoard of coins too heavy to carry out.

>>53271607
Sounds like a trap. Poke it with a 10-foot pole.

>>53271710
I've actually gotten some people to follow through, but then they go silent during negotiation or it turns out to be a bunch of 3.5 books.

>>53271596
Not what I'm disagreeing with,
>there may be more
implies doesn't recognize "prime factorization".
He seems to understand the concept, mind you.

>>53244414
>>53243742
Fucking Letterkenny man....

>>53270097

Nice to see that 4chan is so contrarian that they will turn on extremely niche, high quality content and just say "lol it's shit like how 99% of everything is shit, aren't I so edgy and intelligent?'

>>53269512
+1 dagger is an acoustic and philosophic resonator. Stick it it the ground (exposed length controls station), pluck it like a tuning fork, and it vibrates extra-planar radio.
+0 dagger. Any blood on the blade runs to spells its owner's name.
+0 dagger. Turns into a fuckhueg ax if thrown 10' or farther. Turns back to a dagger if the handle is held.
A tapestry of a dagger worth 200 silver. Dagger can cut things in pictures.
Dangerously radioactive dagger (effectively +1), enchanted to glow blue in the presence of dangerous levels of radiation.
+1 dagger with an entire Almanac written on the blade. Bring a lens.
+0 dagger. Weighs less than a feather.

>>53269677
>A +0 dagger that fluids phase through.
*+1 to-hit underwater.

>>53272914
Name one part of the community, besides Zak's circlejerk, that likes Zak's circlejerk.

>>53273153

I didn't say anything about Zak and his SJWs. I was talking about Arnold.

Goblin Punch is good.

Stop being a contrarian.

That is all.

>>53273311
Misread sorry.

>>53270097
Goblin Punch isn't overrated, but blame Skerples for all the shilling.

>>53269872
Have them find a vague treasure map of far away places as treasure, and don't make anything with a yellow exclamation mark over its head nearby.

Is there a program to easily create a character sheet?

>>53273311
>Goblin Punch is good.
Yeah, I really liked the post where he took the Orcs (evil religious zealots) and changed them into evil antitheist zealots. It goes really well with my homebrew which is like normal D&D except elves hate magic, dwarves are always generous and never greedy, halflings run human civilization, and gnomes lust after kobolds. Arnold is true creative for creative people such as myself.

>>53274046
>Orcs (evil religious zealots)

I never got much of a religious vibe from orcs actually.

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>It's another Midweek Blogger Brawl episode

>>53274078
Yeah, it's not like they're theocratic warbands waging a holy war on all other races by order of their creator or anything.

>>53274288
No, usually just "warbands waging war". Their god telling them to do it pops up on occasion, but it really isn't prominent enough in my mind to make me think of any kind of crazy fanatics.

I usually just think of a barbarian horde, except green.

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>>53274217
What we need right now is someone to make an analogy, and then argue its merits with one other person until the thread dies.

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>>53274046

Shut the fuck up you stupid piece of trash.
>Oh dude you know this minor change to make a traditional fantasy race more interesting? LOL That's the same as reversing every single race XD
>implying Orcs primary traits have ever been evil religious zealots
>implying it isn't well explained in that context (Why do Orcs keep losing against beings weaker then them? Because the Gods hate them obviously.)
>Implying their culture even in goblin punch where they are basically irredeemable isn't still deeper then most orc cultures
>implying Orcs having a negative currency based on sacrifices to the Gods isn't great
>implying you aren't a fucking smug contrarian piece of shit thinking a 'everything has to be exactly like tolkien or else it's bullshit hipster subversive tropes lol!'
>implying you cherrypicking one thing he did as opposed to the incredible dungeons, monsters, classes, and races he's made for years somehow invalidates that because 'lol he made orcs different then tolkien so he's not creative lmao'

Neck yourself, shitposter.

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>>53270437

I think kits are a great way to diversify and flavor classes without adding entirely new ones on top. I'm running an al-qadim game soon and love how grounded the kits feel. Some, especially racial kits, are just bizarre (ghetto fighter) or overly-powerful (bladesinger), so I make sure all kits gets pass before play (And usually allow some racial ones be chosen by other races).

>>53274678
t. Arnold

No, your writing's shit. I don't care how many retarded frog PCs or """clever""" twists you shit out, they all belong in a garbage can.

>>53274986
The troll bit's pretty nice, if only because the D&D trolls are the worst thing in the entire game.

>>53259505

A character that uses a shield can modify his AC with STR instead of DEX if that would be better.

>>53242207
Persona social/mental secrets, to let you know I see through the shifted perspective of your image you maverick renegade.

>>53275146
Sounds reasonable.

Pretty great, actually. Couldn't you apply that to armor as well? The more combined AC you have out of armor and shield, the less your DEX applies and the more your STR applies instead.

Might be a good way to keep the agile acrobatic warrior in a light armor, while the buff mighty glacier gets more out of heavy armor without having to give up all his dexterity like in later editions.

>>53274046
Yes. And Gygax thought Roger Musson's nilbog were worth publishing.
Some shitty ideas are universal. On the other hand;

the post where he swapped Drow, Orcs, and Mindflayers for
Invisible Wrestlers, Ensorceled Amazons, and Diseased Spacemen
was /excellent/.

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>>53265893
>>53265908
>>53265941
>Yes, I know what it says and where it comes from. And in practice that means...?

It means "think about what you are trying to do before you do it." That might seem simple, but it's not.

Before you design a dungeon or run a game, stop and think. What are you trying to do here? What are your goals? The rules are just tools to get you there.

In the example listed, the /intent/ is "Darkness is a powerful and important part of this game." The mechanism for translating that intent into game design and play is "Darkness is a living thing that hates you."

As long as you keep that in mind, it's really easy to run encounters. Rules for torches and lanterns might /help/, but the intent, the hatefulness of darkness, gets stronger as you get busier.

It works for real life stuff too. If you think, really, really think, about the /intent/ of a project before you start, you're less likely to end up with an unsatisfactory result or gets stuck going down dead ends. If you're training someone, it's important to talk about the intent of a procedure and not just the steps. When they're stressed and busy and new, the intent sticks, even if the steps down, and it might save them from making a stupid mistake.

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>>53273419
Surprisingly, I don't shill for it that often. It's mostly other people.

My own stuff, sure, I shill that like a half-penny whore selling handjobs by the docks, but Arnold's stuff has a life of its own.

I hope one day I'll inspire the level of bitter, sarcastic shitposting his content apparently requires.

>>53270457
>"I'd rather be original than good" is a cancerous mindset

Your mileage may vary. For free content, it's hardly the worst. "Oh no, there's more chaff than wheat on this guy's free blog!" isn't a complaint I'm likely to take seriously. If even 10% of the posts are useful to you, that's pretty decent.

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>>53269872
>I keep throwing in hints and rumors but they basically sit around in the tavern waiting for the noticeboard/innkeeper/stranger to tell them exactly what to do next.

This might be an issue with the players having little incentive to describe or detail their characters motivations.

"Get Rich" is a fine motivation, but you're going to get rich slowly and die quickly doing odd jobs in an Inn*

Give them vague rumours. Chase them. Make it seem like they're being "clever" by doing something "unexpected". Reward exploration and have someone offering a stable, sensible job betray them.

And talk to your players. Ask them questions about their characters. Figure out their dreams. Ask them what they find fun in video games.

*also, how medival do you want your setting to be, because... urgh.

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>>53263585
>THere's like 14 planets, 3 comets, the first thing I did when I mad the setting was work out their relative position and period, for whatever reason.

Solid work, I suppose. I hope the Plague goes well. Please post to let us know how it all goes sideways for your group.

And definitely read this: http://erenow.com/postclassical/distantmirror/8.html first.

>>53263901
Solid list. I'm stealing it and making into a table or something.

>>53263992
>how are they going to convert treasure into currency

There's a 50% average exchange penalty when using jewelry and loot as currency. Also, while a scholar might translate a passage for you in exchange for an antique wooden desk, a prostitute isn't going to give you the "spiderling surprise" for an oak slab. On the other hand, she'll probably offer a discount for jewelry.

>>53264134
>Absolutely wrong. Awkward treasure is definitely in the spirit of old school gaming and it's too bad if the characters don't happen to have a cart or a mule to haul that stuff around. It's their own fault.

Correct. Spend you money on hirelings, carts, ox teams, pulleys, and rope.

>>53241648
Is gp for xp the best system or do you guys prefer ad hoc rewards?

>>53278647
>Is gp for xp the best system
Yes.

>>53278647
Some from monsters, some from quests, some from refusing rewards, and some by spending coin in frivolous activities such as getting drunk.

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>>53278647
>Is gp for xp the best system or do you guys prefer ad hoc rewards?

I prefer GP looted = XP. Keeps things simple, encourages people to fight smart if they fight at all, and introduces all sorts of fun side effects. Personally, I don't care what the PCs do with their gold once they get it out. The moment they're safe, it becomes XP-worthy. But I'm considering adding that GP spent on purely frivolous things grants a 10% bonus.

>>53278647

In pretty much any other genre I would use ad hoc.
Generic 5e adventure? When they complete an important quest or side quest.
Sci-Fi? Once they get done on a planet.
Superheros? When the characters defeat a villain or finish a relationship issue.

But for OSR style gameplay I think the mechanical reward of grabbing treasure is too good to mess with. In fact I think it's one of the only thing that truly makes the player want to try a risk reward system. Most retroclone DMs don't design their dungeons where the players just kill everything and get all the treasure, there tends to be a reason to grab some shit and then get out. XP for gold is the entire axis on which that playstyle requires to function.

>>53278850
>I prefer GP looted = XP

I like GP spent. Theoretically the party could spend a lot of their time crafting in a safe location to earn XP though.

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>>53278858
I think 5e is open to an OSR style, but only with the GP for XP system.

>>53278647
I like 1 gp spent = 1 xp, but I also sometimes give quest rewards, and money spent frivolously gains a bonus. Though, I've been wondering for other people who use that system, do you find that you have a problem with people reselling their stuff for money for experience? Do you need to keep track of that at all? I haven't encountered an issue yet with that but it's still rather early in the campaign.

>>53279055
>do you find that you have a problem with people reselling their stuff for money for experience?

How do you sell again what you already sold? How do you eat a cake already eaten?

>>53278005
>yellow sign
I... I'm a nerd aren't I?

But seriously you're talking a lot of sense. If you're sitting down to design a setting/adventure/dungeon, you definitely need to come up with an overall theme, then try to marry the mechanics and design to that theme.

>>53279087
Like if someone bought a sword with their money, say it costs 100 GP, they'd get 100 XP. Then they decide they want something else instead, like a halberd or magic sword or something, and they sell the sword and get 50 GP, which they then spend as part of the halberd or magic sword or whatever and get 50 XP from it.

>>53279264
Obviously they wouldn't get experience out of any gold they didn't spend significant effort to attain - so no fuckery like what you described, although buying a huge stack of merchandise and selling it elsewhere for profit would count.

Furthermore, I don't give experience for buying useful things like weapons or adventuring gear. Only drinks, philanthropy, fancy clothes, and the sort.

>>53279264
That you seriously view that as an issue shows crippling dysfunction.
Either in you or in your group, I can't really tell.

Either way, you could get on with your life by subtracting xp for selling things that aren't explicitly treasure.

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>>53278961
I think that's a good idea in theory, but it's kind of fiddly in practice. It also encourages crazy spending sprees (which, come to think of it, is pretty medieval murderhobo) rather than banking, investing, or saving up for a castle, burying treasure for later, or rolling about in gems.

>>53279208
>But seriously you're talking a lot of sense. If you're sitting down to design a setting/adventure/dungeon, you definitely need to come up with an overall theme, then try to marry the mechanics and design to that theme.

Yup. I posted my thoughts about that upthread:
>>53244035
>>53244041
>>53244054

>I... I'm a nerd aren't I?

/osr/ thread, anon. What tipped you off?

>>53279347
>Either way, you could get on with your life by subtracting xp for selling things that aren't explicitly treasure.

That seems silly. Why should PCs not get XP for looting wood, furniture, pants, dressed stone, brass buttons, rare orchids, slaves, and snakes?

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As someone who has only played 5e, sell me on why I should give the "Old Ways" a shot?

>>53279439
They're D&D operating as designed.

>>53279439
Can I first ask what you like and don't like about 5e?

>>53279439
Character generation is fast (especially if you're using fast packs). Prep is significantly easier.

>>53279420
>Why should PCs not get XP for
They should. You clearly intend it to be treasure.

>>53274986
Where's your blog at bro?