Should a shield be considered a weapon, or armor?

>>53226496
Both

>>53226496
The broadly correct approach for a shield would be to treat it as a weapon with lowish damage potential, but that gives a high defense bonus and a bonus to some special combat stuff (pushing enemies, defending allies, whatever).

This would echo the real-world use of shields, where they were generally incorporated into combat styles as a secondary weapon rather than just as a purely defensive option.

>>53226496
Yes

>>53226579
Yep.

Gurps has it at base, basically like smacking someone with a pair of brass knuckles for the offense (you have a spike) and you get varying degrees of bonus for blocking/parrying, and varying degrees of durability.

Also you can push people around, etc. The Shield rush, in particular, is rather like a body slam mechanically, but you use your shield skill to roll for it, and the DB (related to the size and bulk of the shield) plays into how much damage you do. Also, the shield takes the damage instead of you know, you running into a dude or something.

So big fucker shields like a Scutum will hurt.

A shield is a defensive weapon, you don't wear it, you move it to redirect your enemy's attacks, much like you would to a lesser extent with an offensive weapon.

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Both.

>>53226496

This >>53226530 >>53227916

>>53226579
>>53226724
an often overlooked aspect of shields is that they can be used offensively in ways other than directly attacking. Shields can and were used to cover openings left by the wielder's attacks, allowing them more opportunities to attack where it would otherwise be too dangerous.

Even things like bucklers could at least be used to cover the hands while attacking.

>>53226496
Yes

weaponized armor

>>53226496
It is a weapon that is designed to block.

>>53226496
It depends on what system you are using, and what type of shield you are talking about.

A big old old chainmail and shieldwall-era shield, or ancient greek deep-dished hoplite shield is more like a piece of cover that you hold up between yourself/your mates and your opponent, stopping them from effectively striking at your body.

A buckler on the other hand is more like a weapon, that has the added benefit of blocking your opponents line of sight when you get in his face with it, preventing him from effectively defending himself against your next strike.

Neither one is simulated well in most rpgs.

If you want to give it a go, give a shield a passive number for how much of you it covers when held normally (relevant against arrows and random wild hits) and another stat line that's more in line with a weapon, for use with parrying or attacking.

Most rpgs are shit at abstracting armour, defense and injury anyway, so you are wasting your time.

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>>53226496
How about one asks the old masters which dual welded side swords?
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Giacomo_di_Grassi

>OF THE SWORD AND BUCKLER
>Forasmuch as the Buckler is a weapon very commodious and much used, it is reason that I handle it next after the Cloak. For my purpose is, to reason of those weapons first which men do most ordinarily use, then of those that are extraordinary and less accustomed, discoursing upon each of them, as much as is requisite when I come unto them. Therefore I will first consider of the Buckler, therewith proceeding orderly.
>First his form, as much as appertains to this Art. Next the manner how to use it, giving to every man to understand that the Buckler and other weapons (which are said to be weapons only of warding) may also be of striking, as I will declare in his proper place.

>OF THE SWORD AND TARGET, CALLED THE SQUARE TARGET
>From whence it has come to pass, (because it seemed convenient unto the Professors of this Art) that this weapon was very commodious and profitable, aswell for his fashion, as for it is a mean or middle weapon, between the buckler and the round Target: That they have framed a special kind of play therewith, although it differs from the other two weapons in no other thing then fashion.

>OF THE SWORD AND ROUND TARGET.
>And considering only that thing, in the round Target, among all weapons which may profit or hurt in the handling thereof, I say, that the said round Target has been diversely held, borne and used, by diverse men in diverse ages, aswell as the other square Target, and other weapons of defense, as well as of offense. And there want not also men in our time, who to the intent they be not wearied, bear it leaning on their thigh as though that in this exercise (in which only travail and pains are available) a man should only care for rest and quietness.

>>53228099
>Learn how to use your damned swords and shields
>Don't forget you can hit the bastard with your shield
>Who the hell cares what shape it is so long as it stops people stabbing you and you can smash people with it
>Keep your FUCKING GUARD UP you cocksuckers if this was a fucking battle you'd die in three seconds I don't care if your arm hurts this is a battle you little shit
I like this guy.

>>53226496
>Should a shield be considered a weapon, or armor?
yes

Let me shill for a recent /v/idya here which is one of the only games I've played where shields have felt useful.

A while back there was a game called Expeditions: Conquistador. It had an interesting setting and marriage of types of gameplay but it was very much an unpolished gem. Fast forward to now and we have Expeditions: Viking which has greatly expanded the RPG and character customisation elements.

In Vikings the primary way your character will attack is with weapon skills. You put points into some different weapon types: Sword, Axe, Dane-axe, Knife, Spear, Bow, Sling, Unarmed, Throwing and SHIELD. Now in Conquistador these didn't exist and shields just gave you a random block % chance vs. attacks.

In Vikings you have a flat block % when you equip a shield. Shields as a skill are governed by a character's endurance, when you put points into shields your block chance increases in line with your endurance. Each shield has a set durability that increases with better quality shields: blocking melee attacks damages shields, blocking ranged attacks doesn't. There are 5 ranks to each weapon: 1, 3 and 5 also give you an active ability: rank 1 of shields gives you Brace, an ability which lets you fully restore your shield's durability 1/battle. Rank 3 gives you Defend, a stance you can take where your shield can't be damaged at all. Rank 5 gives you Shield Bash, an attack that knocks the enemy back and has a chance to make them fall over.

I'm delighted by how NECESSARY shields are in this game. A tanky character with a shield and a high block is really fucking effective! And archers in this game are ferocious, but shields are the most effective method of defense/action denial to archers. So you actually want pretty much everyone carrying a shield at the start of battle, even if they won't use it to attack. They're a highly defensive weapon and I'd love to see them as effective as this in a PnP.

>>53226496
Should a parrying dagger be considered a weapon, or armor?

>>53228775
Neither, it's an accessory.

>>53226496
Arms and armour.
Arms are what you hold, armour what you wear.

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>>53226496
If a shield isn't a weapon explain this.

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>>53228833
Fantasy

>>53227916
Are those frying pans?

It does depend partially on the shield - some shields simply aren't meant to be used as a weapon. They're too heavy to be easily swung at a guy, or they're too light - some ancient shields were wicker shields meant to block arrows, not to smack someone with.

>>53226496
I don't think shields are handled realistic in D&D.

Shields can break, or stuck enemy weapons on it, apart from also being used as a weapon. A bonus to AC is shit mechanics.

>>53226496
Neither.

>>53230601
Well, for the "break" there is the whole sunder mechanics.
Shield ar decent in D&D, you can stun, bullrush, daze, increase AC and all sort of stuff.
Just, the increase in AC often do not make them worthy compared to 2WF or 2HF.

You hold it in your hand rather than wearing it so I'd say it's more "Weapon" than "Armor", considering maybe some game distinguishes such and then you have arguments about weather you can have a shield with a two-handed weapon or wield two weapons while having a shield because "it's ARMOR", better to categorize things as mutually exclusive wargear option than have to hardcode in limitations as special rules.

>>53230409
I think they are

>>53230409
>>53235139
Absolutely.
Notice how his pauldron is a furnace door, and his codpiece is a shovel.

Even when 'bolds fuck around they don't fuck around.

>>53230409
And an oven door. And shovels.

Shields are more of an augmentation to active defense than passive defense. Not armor.
Shields are shields.

>>53227916
weaponized frying pans

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>>53228099
>Browse through that wiki
>Find this
fucking christ

>>53240295
the sword cracks me up

>>53240295
>MB
I like how both of their faces communicate the 'Oh God this was a bad idea I don't wanna die!"

>>53227916
Nice frying pans, nerd

>>53226579
Well...this in a nutshell.

Think of shields as offering an OBSCENE bonus to parry to the point that you can plausibly just duck behind your shield all day and be fine under most circumstances.

>>53226724
Oddly enough it was the Smaller shields that were the most offensive. Not saying that 22 lbs of steel and wood wouldn't hurt but a small steel buckler was way easier to score hits with.

>>53227916
Are those...frying pans on his wrists?

Hang on, are those shovels on his waist?

Wait a sec, are those Shields on his leg?

Is This A Ladle I See Before Me?

>>53227916
He has a shovel on his dick. what a badass

>>53240569
>Wait a sec, are those Shields on his leg?
Shoulderpads actually.

>>53226496
Go to the PDF share thread, download Mythras. That is how shields work.

>>53240591
The shovel is protecting his utensils, including sharp ended forks, tongs, and knives.
Which are unfortunately placed next to his genitals.
Mistakes.

>>53240295
>Exposed toes. For what.

>>53241259
EXTRA GRIP

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>>53226496
>>53240295
They can be deadly

>>53226496
It should be considered a shield. What do I win?

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>>53227916
Larger image.

So I have some actually experience with this topic

Shields are absolutely weapons, now most people, when I say this think of using it as a straight on push/bullrush with the shield held defensively in front. But guess what faggots, the hard, reinforced edge of a shield is fucking dangerous, slam that motherfucker into the face of anyone & it'll ring their bell. Using a shield is so much more than turtling behind it & swinging around it. You can hold your shield perpendicular to your chest, & hold it out from you to deny most of your opponent's attacks from the side, swivel it up & to the side like a table to block an over head blow while thrusting up with your weapon hidden, etc. Tons of possibilities.

Shields should be weapons with a defensive bonus to parry & a bonus as cover versus ranged attacks when actively defending. WFRPG 2nd did shields well

Keep your shield busy & don't be afraid to bash them with the side of your shield.

>>53226496
it's a shield

>>53243093
>when I say this think of using it as a straight on push/bullrush with the shield held defensively in front.
No, I don't. I think of someone on the floor, and then the shield user raises his shield and hits the guy on the floor right on the face with the shield's borders, decapitating him instantly.

>>53243093
>WFRPG 2nd
post pdf

>>53243143
Shit, that was supposed to say "most people think"

But good job anon, that is good shield use

>>53243179
Check the warhammer fantasy general.

>>53241782
>Verily, surf's up, brethren.