/4eg/ Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons General

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>>53203834
posting all my stuff from yesterday, plus a couple things I need help with.

>>53203834
Use a better image next time.

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>>53203834
You can change the stun glove to daze if you want, I think its just a bit of extra challenge for the PC's.

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Here are a couple of monsters I need help with. They are basically 'potion junkies", ones a roided out dwarf and the other is a hopped up halfling.

For this one all i have are a list of powers and some stuff I copied from the halfling thief.

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>>53203834
And this one is basically empty. I need help coming up with some clever powers for them.

I thought it would be funny if the dwarf had a huge roided up body and a tiny pin head with no neck

>>53203834
Also, my two most broken character builds from character generator.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Halfling, Monk, Tiger Claw Master
Monastic Tradition: Iron Soul
Background: Burglar (+2 to Thievery)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 18, Dex 23, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 30 Fort: 22 Reflex: 24 Will: 19
HP: 80 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +19, Athletics +12, Thievery +20, Stealth +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +9, Heal +5, History +5, Insight +5, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +5, Streetwise +4

FEATS
Level 1: Superior Implement Training (Transcendent Ki Focus)
Level 2: Lost in the Crowd
Level 4: Crashing Tempest Style
Level 6: Iron Parry
Level 8: Unarmored Agility
Level 10: Flowing River Style
Level 11: Effortless Motion

POWERS
Monk at-will 1: Steel Wind
Monk at-will 1: Five Storms
Monk encounter 1: Scattering of Leaves
Monk daily 1: Whirling Mantis Step
Monk utility 2: Supreme Flurry
Monk encounter 3: Eternal Mountain
Monk daily 5: Disrupting Fist
Monk utility 6: Centered Defense
Monk encounter 7: Fist of One Hundred Strikes
Monk daily 9: Twilight Touch
Monk utility 10: Adamantine Bones

ITEMS
Monk Unarmed Strike, Ki Club +1, Iron Ki Focus, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Emerald Flame Ki Focus +3, Summoned Githweave Armor +3, Amulet of Life +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

this may say houseruled but I assure you, its perfectly legal. (character builder doesn't have any way of selecting large weapons)

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Bugbear, Barbarian
Feral Might: Rageblood Vigor

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10.


AC: 16 Fort: 17 Reflex: 13 Will: 10
HP: 28 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +7, Endurance +5, Athletics +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering -1, Heal -1, History, Insight -1, Nature -1, Perception -1, Religion, Stealth +3, Streetwise, Thievery +1

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)

POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Recuperating Strike
Barbarian at-will 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian encounter 1: Avalanche Strike
Barbarian daily 1: Thunder Hooves Rage

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Mordenkrad (Large)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

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If you are wondering how to copy text to the clipboard, go into character builder, click on the manage tab above, then the summary tab right below that. in the bottom left hand corner there is a button that will copy your text to the clip board, then all you do is paste it into the thread.

If you're having trouble with character builder, for instance only getting the original CB without the updates, click on the CBLoader.exe file after copying and running your updates into the Program Files\Wizards of the Coast\Character Builder directory.

>>53204132
>>53204202
Also, any help with these two monster would be appreciated, if you don't mind contributing free labor to a fan project and building a crowd-sourced monster. I can do the editing and repost the monster.

>>53204306
oh, i guess there is a way. You go to preferances and click "show large weapons." Its really tiny and hard to spot.

>>53204440
lol, i'd like to show her my large weapon

>>53199641
3+1, then. And each option grants a different type of power: race is encounter, theme is utility (non-combat), PP is daily, ED is support (combat utility)... for example, obviously.

>>53205274
gaiz, c'mon man, are you just going to ignore all that effort I made into trying to kickstart this thread?

>>53205274
So you'd get to pick your paragon path and epic destiny from day 1? That sounds cool. Like a more focused version of exhausted with western themes and heroes.

>>53205274
Not every power follows the power format though, some of them are just constant effects or properties, such as paragon effects. Should there be a way to stat for this?

jeez, 4e really is dead.

>>53203947
>>53203998
>>53204028
new monsters

>>53204132
>>53204202
new monsters I need help with

>>53204238
>>53204306
silly broken builds

>>53204355
>>53204440
tooltips

>>53206152
Passives could follow the power format, except a lot of your passive effects in 4e were small shit like "+1 damage with x when Y", which would be a waste to card-ify, and you had a lot of them 'cause feats.

A successor game could cut out that chaff, and then do entirely card based character building.

I tried it with Strike! and it's really fast.

>>53210493
yeah but all that small stuff added up.
part of the fun was picking through the feats and paragon paths and finding those little +1's. The problem was all the circumstantial bonuses really added up to a nightmare of bookkeeping

I think effects need to be a bit more broad.

>>53210533
like a monkey grooming ritual, it was. Picking out all those little ticks and lice, then consuming them and absorbing their power.

>>53205274

Interesting. I could see that making some sense, shuffling around what grants what of course.

Although it does somewhat narrow the design space available for some things, it also provides a strong structure and a nice sense of symmetry.

Then again... Twelve combat powers is only two below 4e's 14, which quite a few people found overwhelming.

Then again, this might be me overcompensating. I'm the sort of person who loves having lots of interesting options to consider, but I'm trying to not let that overly influence our design and making things just as or even more overcomplex, since that was a common complaint even among people who like the system.

>>53203998
>minor action, at-will, MBA stun

Holy shit this is the worst thing I have ever seen

>>53210493
>>53210533
I think this situational +1 must go. Feats should add diversity, not bonus.

>>53212971
Yeah, one of the worst parts

Still working on the Avenger PMC Rogue. It's coming up rather nicely, actually. Didn't really think I could use a Light Blade as an Avenger properly, but honestly it's helped up a bit.

>>53218155
Isn't there a method to use heavy blades on a rogue instead?

Sounds better for your damage.

>>53218463
Probably not by much, at best it's going from 1d8 to 1d10, but losing +1/+2/+3 with combat advantage.

>>53218463
versatile duelist. It's ok

I had a funny rogue build focused on using it to give a halfling a bastard sword with loads of damage. Because versatile duelist + scrappy + small warrior's defense + heavy blade opportunity makes for a very scary halfling

>>53218899
Heavy blade opportunity is just one of those early, cool (read: kinda broken) feats that you can stay up late into the night building characters around.

>>53219845
wizard + entrancing mystic + spell focus = permanent -7 penalty to saving throws against your charm spells while you're within 3 squares of the target

>>53218155
>>53218899
Post your build, nigga

>>53212022
>>53215490
how bout if I make it so you can only use it once per turn?

>>53220157
Make it a daze, and only once per turn

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>>53220164
you can make it daze if you want.

>>53220235
Should i bump it to level 9?
At least that way you get access to all three dailies.
Maybe level 11? For paragon paths?

>>53220164
>>53215490
>>53212022

Do you have any input for the potion junkies? I kinna hit a wall with them. Even some clever names for powers would be cool.

>>53220289
Do you want them to use potions mid-combat?

Maybe change the dwarf from using mere strength potions to potions of giant growth.

Each does increases his size and move-resist by 1, but also lowers his speed by 1.

Successfully pushing/pulling/tripping makes him barf up a potion and shrink back down a size.

Otherwise he's just an aura defender. Maybe basic attack pushes enemies by 1+size, trip if would smash into wall.

I would like some sort of page template for races and classes so I could easily work on my own. OP doesn't have it listed, and I remember that something like that exists.

Help?

>>53220385
>Do you want them to use potions mid-combat?
BRILLIANT!!!
>Maybe change the dwarf from using mere Noice!
>Each does increases his size and move-resist by 1, but also lowers his speed by 1.
Good... Good...
>Successfully pushing/pulling/tripping makes him barf up a potion and shrink back down a size.
lol
>Otherwise he's just an aura defender. Maybe basic attack pushes enemies by 1+size, trip if would smash into wall.
i prefer extra damage when you hit a wall, but sounds good!

>Maybe change the dwarf from using mere strength potions to potions of giant growth.
Noice

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>>53220762

>>53221262
I thought brute would be better for him but think maybe adding a mark ability might not be too bad either. I think his AC needs adjusting, maybe have him wearing hide or plate.

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>>53221262
Here we go.

>>53221525
I'm thinking maybe increase to level 5, add some sort of secondary attack like a grab. What do you think?

shit, i forgot to add the extra push to the giant potion. He pushes an extra square when he drinks it.

also, there should be some reason why he doesn't just drink it right away.

>>53221525
>>53221566
Why not grab and pour some drink into the target, making him daze? "Drinking Friends" or something.

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>>53221678
I was thinking like putting them into a headlock and giving him nuggies or causing indian burns or something.

>>53221678
thats pretty clever too though. I think its got more of a irresitable laughter/ dance feeling to it. Like a bunch of skeletons are partying and they enchant you so that you have to join in.

>>53221749
whoa, why did it increase to d8?
hmm... maybe it should increase to d8 when he drinks a potion.

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>>53221820
Nah, its already doing 5d6+6 max.

>>53221925
Now that seems like a suitable elite. That thing could one shot a character if they are not careful.

>>53221925
I just corrected a few clerical and grammar errors. Nothing update worthy. Adding a grab attack seems too clunky.

I think its done.

Here is a link to the monsters for download
https://mega.nz/#!BBlB3BQD!ncanFowIrcHZ7fMDgQcw33q_irb7-aAndbbaqj4Jal4

>>53203834
Want to do the speed potion junkie next?

Anybody have any ideas for a monster concept? I promise I won't try to shut you down.

>>53223062
I've never had a need to make monsters, 4e has so many pre-made monsters and is so refluff-friendly that it's never been an issue

>>53223243
yeah, but, lets be honest here, most of them aren't really that good, are they?

>>53223627
Most of them are underpowered, their fluff is boring, their abilities are really basic, even their names are just kind of recycled templates with a new adjective shoved in front.

Some of them are really good though. They just need their math adjusted to make them harder. You don't really need to match up each mini to each critter entry, you can always just substitute another model for it.

>>53223698
I'd generally recommend turning all monster stunning attacks into daze+slow attacks

Because it is never fun to be stunned

>>53224505
If I do that, will you contribute something? Or you know, you could just follow this link and edit them yourself.


https://mega.nz/#!BBlB3BQD!ncanFowIrcHZ7fMDgQcw33q_irb7-aAndbbaqj4Jal4

>>53212022
>MBA
Woots dis?

>>53225920
melee basic attack

so, you know, it can stun with an opportunity attack

>>53226014
Oh. its not supposed to be basic. I don't know why I checked that.

What's your favorite familiar for a witch?

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So I made a pair of hobgoblins that are meant to compliment each other, mostly just copy pasta from kobold piker and fighter types, but was hoping to punch it up a bit.

They are perfect for guarding corridors, because the shield guys go up front and push the line while the pikers hang back and attack with reach. Since the average corridor in D&D is only about 5' to 10' wide, they make good use of their phallanx abilities.

I think maybe level 5 is too much. I'm also not sure I want shield bash as a move action, but I want them to be able to do something with their move action and i want them to have a push attack, so i dunno.

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>>53226415

>>53203834
Alright, so i changed the stun glove thing. Its reach 1, not 2, does 1 damage instead of 1d4+x, and its no longer a basic attack.

But thats it. If you don't like stun, don't use it, but I think it is just kind of a fun silly thing to include that keeps the solo from getting swarmed and is kind of clever to boot. (lol, maybe it could be a boot on a jack instead)

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>>53226522
oh, and it can only be used once per turn.

But its still stun!

>>53204132
Here are some suggestions:
>New attack power: Rush (standard action; at-will; weapon keyword)
The potion junkie shifts 8 squares. During this shift, it can make up to three melee basic attacks, no more than two of which can be made against the same target.

>I'll cut you man! I'll cut you! (fear keyword)
Close burst 5 (one creature in the burst)
Attack: +5 vs. Will
Hit: The target grants combat advantage to the potion junkie until the end of this turn.

>Didn't even feel it
Trigger: The junkie is hit or missed by an attack and takes damage.
Effect: The junkie takes half damage from the triggering attack. If the junkie was missed, it instead takes no damage from the triggering attack.

>Slash 'n' Grab (recharge when first bloodied)
The junkie uses Rush, but can replace one of the attacks with picking up an unattended object or making a Thievery check to grab an attended object.

>Zip Gun
The potion junkie shoots a hook up to 10 squares away. If the hook is able to catch hold on a surface, the potion junkie shifts to that location.

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Does the offline monster editor have all the official monsters? I can't find Tiamat even after all of the updates are installed.

>>53220035
It's not finished, but the basis is actually kinda similar to the CharOp Mia build, but actually is possible without being overly cheesy.

Basically, Mia was an Avenger PMC Ranger that got that Scout attack after an MBA, and relied on rolling several attacks per turn to crit-fish and stacked them even more, which the Avenger can do. Basically, she was the ultimate Avenger - rolled a lot, got a lot of crits and a lot of attacks off those crits, was a tough bastard to take down but extremely mobile too.

I decided to do a variation on it. I would rather PMC Rogue than Ranger. I lose the cheesiness and sheer power, but it's still a very good character. Still gonna keep Martial Archetype, because it fits the role.

Githzerai Avenger of Ioun, 12 STR 12 CON 18 DEX 10 INT 18 WIS 8 CHA bumping DEX and WIS, Censure of Unity or Pursuit, take your pick. Theme is Samurai or Ironwrought, Power of Skill as the first feat, the second is Githzerai Blade Master, picking up a Rapier, then Light Blade Expertise. This allows for a decent character that is more of a charger type. Relentless Stride as your E3, E1 doesn't really matter, probably is Raging Tempest. Afterwards we MC Rogue with Sneak of Shadows, Fury's Advance for E7, Novice Power at Level 8 to switch Relentless Stride for Low Slash. Keep switching for Rogue powers, first the Dailies, then the Utilities. I would go Knockout and Sneak in the Attack. As for the Utilities and Dailies of the Avenger, I'd say Aspect of Might and Nine Souls of Wrath, Utilities are whatever.

PMC at level 11 then pick Improved Initiative followed by Superior Will and Superior Reflexes. Level 16 it's Cunning Stalker. Then pick up Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Opening at level 18 and 20, use a Short Sword in your other hand. Encounter powers are Darting Strike from the Paragon Path, level 13 is Relentless Stride (retrain E1), then you switch from Low Slash to Tumbling Strike with your E17. As for your U12 you can probably take Tumble.

>>53220035
>>53227479

At level 21, go Martial Archetype, pick Tumbling Strike through the ED, E17 becomes Vengeful Parry, then you can use Novice Power to pick up . Don't even worry about retraining any furthers, by Level 21 you have Tumbling Strike, Vengeful Parry, and your choice of 3 of the following: Darting Strike, Low Slash, Relentless Stride, Fury's Advance. Feats are Superior Initiative (retrained from Improved Initiative), Vengeful Declaration, Hand of Divine Guidance, Martial Mastery, Divine Mastery, Heavenly Torrent and Font of Radiance.

Do use Radiant Rapiers, you can use Counterstrike Guards which are also kind of crazy. Try to get many MBAs in, they're great, especially given you're an Avenger. Strikebacks and Backlash Tattoo, for one, for example. As for your capstone feature of your ED, I'd say either Death from Two Sides or A Plan Comes Together to allow for some slight leading; Master of the Hunt as your L26 Utility.

The running idea and plan with this character is to try and really pressure up your opponents. You can dictate where they go quite easily and it's hard to punish you or to do anything at all, since you will end up with quite a few interrupts. You like to burst into the fight early on and pressure the enemy lines. You have strong crit-fishing possibilities, too. You don't quite have as much mobility as Mia would, but it's hard to beat Mia in nearly anything. Honestly, the toughest thing has been picking the Utilities and Dailies. For example, Sneak in the Attack is a really strong pick for your Rogue MC Utility, and you have Holy Blessing through most of your career until Level 21. Dailies I've pretty much only Knockout and Bloodbath which are absolutely hilarious, but Avengers only really get meh stuff.

>>53220035
>>53227479
>>53227520
Hence why I have yet to finish it. It's missing most of its items, dailies, utilities, just about anything.

If you're wondering how it plays out, at lower levels, if you'd rather play it a bit more straight before going all-out, you're a decent damage-dealing Avenger that uses a Rapier by Level 5 but nothing special, by level 7 you can have some good target-chasing capabilities or nova possibilities, it's really your pick at that point as you can pick between Darting Strike, Low Slash, Fury's Advance and Relentless Stride, with some leader-like bits from other things (particularly your Utilities), but if you'd rather you can just drop that and go a bit more straight as a striker. By level 11 it's starting to be a great character, and by level 13 you are actually good at both nova'ing and chasing down your target. In fact, that's your main deal. You come in close, pressure your target and make it difficult for him to get away from you or to try and escape you. The higher levels only intensify, not even by rounding out your arsenal but rather by making you better at stringing everything together. Then Epic comes in, you become a really solid critfisher that doesn't feel like it's actively trying to critfish, and you regen a lot of powers.

It's a build I find quite fun to think about, but it's still kind of unfinished.

>>53227479
>Basically, Mia was an Avenger PMC Ranger that got that Scout attack after an MBA,

PMC should be fixed to a.) not allow abuse as that b.) be worth it without abuses like that.

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How can I get the most elemental water themed powers possible? There's always tons of options for fire, dozens for ice, plenty for wind and earth, but water seems to get left out.

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Hi /4eg/, I'm the one thinking about using 4e for Starcraft.

Should Stimpack be an item consumable? Terran racial power? Marine class feature? Feat power?

And how to do it? Spend a Healing Surge to allow a RBA or MBA as move action until end of encounter?
>but then everyone would use it on turn 1!
Yes, and spend a HS for that, reducing his ability to heal.

For now the idea is having as classes:

- Infantry (Marine or Reaper)
- Heavy Weapons (need better name. For Firebat and Marauder)
- Operative (Ghost or Spectre)
- Officer (Medic or Science officer)

Maybe refluff the classes as armors/loadouts. You are unlikely to switch to a different one, but it allows you to treat shit like the stimpack a feature of marine armor.

Multiclassing feats would be bolting tech from other armors/equipment sets onto yours that's usually not compatible/standard issue.

>>53233388
Could work, and the level (rank) only implies better handling of the equipment and better requisition of armor.

But doesn't help in making it more friendly if before every mission player can switch class (armor) and loadout (power). Could drag it too much.

>>53233688
Well, as long as the player got the stat investment in one type of armor, switching would be discouraged.

But I personally kinda like the option of switching loadouts/retraining, as long as your streamline it down.

>>53233993
This falls apart when dealing with Ghosts. Psi powers don't work like that. But the loadout idea is a good fluff to explain crunch restrictions.

>>53234334
>Psi powers don't work like that.

I'm pretty sure they actually need psi-catalysts built into their stuff for just about everything they do. They can't cloak without their gear, for example. I also don't think stuff like lockdown is entirely just psi powers...

Except Kerrigan, 'cause she's the protagonist.

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As a GM, how much would you say I deviate from the DMG/Monster Vault's numbers if my players are chronically bad optimizers?

>Wizard with 2nd highest stat as Wisdom
>Took no powers that scale off Wis

>Rogue with +1 Cha modifier
>Taking Cha-based powers

The other two I helped with, but they're not in any way spectacular builds, and I'm just feeling a little worried.

>>53226714
breddy gud, m8

Only thats not what a zip gun is.

You might want to be careful about planning out your build ahead of time. It might sound good on paper but you might end up having to retrain a lot of your skills if the build doesn't work.

>>53237000
just make one build at level 1, one at level 11, and another at 21. Start from the bottom and work your way up.

>>53234365
I need to recheck the lore about it. I really thought it were to restrict, not amplify the psionic powers.

It is better to keep the classes as classes, but the loadout idea will be used.

>>53234994
You know, neither of those are particularly bad for optimization

Enlarge Spell is a good enough feat to make a wisdom investment worth it even if you don't plan on taking any wisdom-scaling powers. And some of the cha-scaling powers for rogue only need +1 to give pretty much their full benefit like Compel the Craven.

Either way, you're in a better position than DMs with actual optimizers since your players will be closer to the power curve the game assumes. Rather than a few steps above it

>>53233143
Kinda broken, I can picture it going really screwy with people like Rogues and Rangers and even Avengers.

In fact, it basically makes the Avengers really strong because now they can do 2 attacks per turn with Overwhelming Strike, which is kind of ridiculous, and they're one of the ones that are more suited for that, especially given some of the powers available.

Or Monks, Monks suddenly have Multiattacks now.

>>53238407
Well, Terran powers would have to be chosen to avoid this. Letting Avengers powers to the Protoss Zealots.
I'm all ears on how to better to this without breaking the game.

In Starcraft 1:
>Marines and firebats double their rate of fire and increase their movement rate for a limited period of time.
In Starcraft 2:
>Enables affected infantry to attack and move 50% more quickly.

>>53229466
Mia was still a really good character - the PMC synergy between Avenger and Ranger followed by Martial Archetype is not something to be underestimated. Unfortunately I can't really find the build nowadays, and the forum is fucking dead.

But it was very interesting. You can run it without going full cheese and it will make sense.

Plus, you can actually do a really funny thing and dual-wield with a dagger in your main hand, a bastard sword in your off-hand, and use your sword for anything - you're basically an FE Myrmidon/Swordmaster at that point, and it's great.

>>53238637
Terran racial utility power, probably Level 6, maybe higher. Minor action, personal. Encounter. Spend a surge, then shift your speed and do a basic attack against the closest enemy to you.

That's how I'd do it.

>>53238951
Feels kinda weak to have to spend a surge just for that but I'm no expert on power balance in 4e.

>>53239602
It's just a hair worse than a Level 22 Bard power. It's quite strong.

>>53238951
stop talkin' shit and post your build, nigga

>>53231369
thats probably because, you know, its just water, and not like, acid or something.

>>53240883
sploosh!
NOOOO
IM ALL WET

been playing 5e recently. Man i miss the Streetwise and Dungeoneering Skills.

>>53241502
I'm in a 5e campaign right now and combat is just so boring. I'm playing a paladin and aside from a couple buff spells every now and then every fight is pretty much attack attack attack oh it's a scary thing smite smite smite.

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>>53240883
>>53240905
Wind and Earth don't give a shit.
And half of the time "water" damage is acid damage, taking cues from various Genasi abilities.
There's no reason it can't be a repositioning powerhouse, or cut, or suffocate, or crush. Or even add in some minor healing powers.
Instead it always gets jack shit.

>>53240863
I hate using the character builder, so I do it by hand. Level 13 version, item neutral.

Also fuck you.

Githzerai Avenger/PMC Rogue/Martial Archetype, Level 13
+2 WIS/+2 DEX
Censure of Pursuit
Ioun
Theme: Ironwrought
Background: Born Under A Bad Sign

STR 13 CON 13 DEX 21 INT 11 CHA 9 DEX 21

AC 27 FORT 21 REFL 25 WILL 28

HP 104 Bloodied 52 Surge Value 26 Surges per Day 8

Trained Skills
Acrobatics, Religion, Perception, Stealth, Thievery

Feats
L1 - Power of Skill
L2 - Githzerai Blade Master
L4 - Light Blade Expertise
L6 - Sneak of Shadows
L8 - Novice Power (Darting Strike)
L10 - Adept Power (Knockout)
L11 - Acolyte Power (Sneak in the Attack)
L12 - Superior Will

At-Will
L1 - Overwhelming Strike
L1 - Bond of Pursuit (Unbalancing Trick at Level 11 - if not possible, Deft Strike)

Encounter
L1 - Raging Tempest
L3 - Fury's Advance
L7 - Relentless Stride (Darting Strike through Novice Power)
L11 - Low Slash
L13 - Relentless Stride (discard Raging Tempest)

Daily
L1 - Strength of Many
L5 - Nine Souls of Wrath
L9 - Aspect of Might (Knockout through Adept Power)

Utility
L2 - Refocus Emnity
L6 - Loyal Sanction
L10 - Step of Fate (Sneak in the Attack through Acolyte Power)
L12 - Tumble

Theme
L1 - Inevitable Strike

Racial
L1 - Iron Mind

+3 Magic Kestrekel Feather Cloth
+3 Magic Rapier
+3 Amulet of Protection

>>53241821
First DnD character I ever played was in 4e and a Dragonborn paladin. Maybe it was because he was my first character, but I had so much fun roleplaying my Powers.

He wielded a Flail and when I used Enfeebling Strike I would describe the following
>Hawthorne's Flail wraps around [Target]'s [Insert body party]. The chain of the flail glows and it looks as if [Target]s lifeforce is drained.

Shit was so great.

My Bugbear Warden's At-will of choice was Weight of Earth. I roleplayed it like he used his giant hammer to hit enemies into the ground like hammering posts into the ground. They had to climb out of the ground as the description for how the "Slow" was applied. It was fucking great.

>>53241988
I actually like how the powers in 4e allow for RPing of the actions. I RP'ed a Battlemind|Fighter that was a Fighter and while fighting a cult ended up having an experience with an eldritch power that basically screwed him up in time, but his simultaneous psionic awakening kept him more or less alright. End result was a Fighter that had constant migraines and no memory of the fights properly speaking because he would find himself travelling through times whenever he did something that Battleminds do - Lightning Rush and Blurred Step, mainly. That was really fun.

>>53242081
I always wanted to play a Battlemind, but I never got a chance to, and I was never able to figure out a good backstory for a Psionic-Powered character. Even in 5e, when they released the Mystic UA, I still havent figured out a backstory for that kind of character that I find interesting.

>>53242171
Battlemind is a good class for the traditional hero

The young farm boy who's set out on a hero's journey

It works better than Fighter because unlike Fighters, Battleminds aren't based on skill, but rather on sheer bloody-minded determination

>>53242696
>The young farm boy who's set out on a hero's journey
>Who has immense Psychic powers

>>53242718
But you don't have "immense psychic powers", not as a level 1 Battlemind

You're not a psion, you can't teleport yet, nothing you do as a level 1 Battlemind even looks supernatural to anyone watching unless they have prior knowledge about psionics

>>53242772
They can teleport with Persistent Harrier and Harrying Step at level 1, in fact quite often.

>>53237086
The inhibitors are actually in their brains, to stop them from becoming too strong.

>>53241944
You are probably best off refluffing famalam.

>>53243689
Well, yeah. How else are you going to stop fucking Displacer Beasts from stealing your hens.
It is a fantasy setting with magic all over the place. Do you really think people will just refuse to use any of that just to make adventurers feel special?

>>53242696
Don't you mean Ardent?

I always felt they work really well for the "hotheaded hero" archetype, in the sense that it's their emotions that give them (and their friends) power... although they are admittedly not the best in a straight fight.

Could someone explain to someone stupid like me (I'm only familiar with D&D through computer RPGs that use Editions 2.0-3.5) explain why 4E is so reviled? That one never got a vidya adaptation.

>>53246278
Memes, breaking tradition, bad launch, impossible to reach expectations. It was the perfect storm, really.

>>53246278

While >>53246329 sums it up really well, there are a few things to expand upon.

The launch of the game wasn't good. The early math made combat much less fun to play and gave people a bad first impression.

Some people also got really angry about what it did to various D&D settings, although I don't give a fuck about any of them so I couldn't tell you more.

Part of it is that 4e is very different, but that's only half true. I heard a great point made that 4e took what 3.5 Was, how the mechanics ended up being, and looked at how to make it actually work, fixing broken systems and tying things together into a solid, competent and mechanically rigorous system.

What they didn't understand, I think, is that huge swathes of their playerbase didn't play the system as it was, they played the system as it was in their heads. They liked 3.PF because it was so vague and loose and janky that they could do whatever with it and, by the standards of the system, it would 'work'.

5e seems like an attempt to go towards that, an open ended system which encourages you to make shit up.

Not to say you can't do so in 4e, but 4e focused a lot more on having a really solid, coherent mechanical core. Making things up in 4e, you should actually think it through since the mechanics are rigorous enough that something working badly will really stand out, rather than just fading into the background as it did with 3.PF.

The formatting is another bizarrely influential thing. People assumed classes played similarly because they had the same role and their powers were structured similarly, not looking beyond the formatting and structure and actually seeing the mechanical depth there. I think it's part of why we've seen obfuscation return in a big way in 5e. For some reason people seem to prefer simple but obfuscated mechanics to interesting and clearly explained ones.

>>53246380
If we are expanding shit anyway, don't forget killing off the SRD and the OGL, which suddenly made every third party publisher turn against WotC.

And also the lack of electronic tools on release because of the murder-suicide.

>>53246404
People also complained about the heavy focus on combat.

Which is true, there is a heavy focus on combat, but every edition has a heavy focus on combat. And most people really enjoy the tension of combat. I think if they spent more time working on skill challenges and gave Powers that worked within Skill Challenges it would feel more well rounded.

Honestly, i'd love to see someone take 4e and run with it like Paizo did with 3.5 and turning it into Pathfinder. There are seemingly no games out there like 4e and I'd love one, I think 13th Age is close, but honestly I've only glanced at the SRD.

>>53247094
Just in case anyone cares, here are my main takeaways from the many hours i put into a sort of "loveletter remake" to 4e (which i eventually gave up on). There are certain issues that practically everyone seems to agree on, and they can be fixed without breaking compatibility with MM3+ era monsters. They do still demand significant changes to magic items, in my perspective.

(1) To-hit bonuses are too valuable, and the design team never really seemed to fully understand this.
Practically every feature that provides to-hit bonuses will consistently out-compete everything else. Perhaps ironically, if you slightly increased the overall expected hit rate to begin with from the current 55% all-being-equal, to something like 65% (by, say, giving all player characters a +2 to-hit bonus) you'd be significantly improving overall choice balance and improving the speed of combat (another minor complaint) in one fell swoop. This will somewhat de-value reliable daily powers, but that's honestly a small price to pay.

>>53248189
(2) Tax feats, item treadmill, and core scaling math
Keep in mind that the current math more or less assumes that you manage to keep up, by (among other things) somehow getting from your automatic +½ level on all defenses and d20 rolls, to a full +1 per level. By level 30 this is a total of 15 points worth of scaling from basically all sources of bonuses you could possibly get your hands on. Magic items and tax feats make up about +9 or so of this, off the top of my head. This is the case for many different statistics - in other words, action is necessary on a lot of different fronts simply in order to not fall behind.

The issue with tax feats is essentially that tax feats (even the new snazzy and clearly-high-powered obvious-choice essentials ones) are fairly boring (certainly when everyone has to pick them) and generally out-compete other options by pretty big margins. Instead of giving out tax feats for free (which is what most people have been doing,) it's much neater to simply remove tax feats entirely, at the same time as you change how the overall scaling works, to compensate.

>>53248204
The need for a +6 magic items in many slots; Neck, Armor, Weapon(s)/Implement, and arguably perhaps also Bracers (raw damage bonuses) and key skills, roughly represents potentially well over a hundred magic items just to keep up. And that's actually assuming the party is wishlisting everything, and you're not dropping redundant items that nobody has proficiency for, or that aren't upgrades.
And that doesn't even factor in fun items like wondrous items of various kinds.
I argue that this is unnecessary and absurd; a DM is not a piece of computer software, yet theoretically has to constantly give out truly diablo-esque explosions of magic items to keep up with demand.
The overwhelming trend is that people tend to be behind most of the time, while keeping up or exceeding the curve for only short amounts of time, if ever. This is why so many people play with inherent bonuses; they limit how far you can fall behind and thus act like safety net. But they're also an added bit of ugly complexity.
My suggestion is to alter the main scaling on player characters so that you can reduce the maximum bonus on magic items to something like +4 or +3, while possibly doing away with the need for certain categories of magic item entirely, such as perhaps the bonus to NADs from the amulet slot.

And even then, the guideline should be for the GM to either do wishlisting, or to include a LOT of magic items in treasure.

Something else that could alleviate this might be to reduce the amount of specialization into particular weapons that characters can do, but that would require a huge amount of very careful and difficult work across lots of feats, powers, and classes. I strongly advise against doing that, though.

>>53248241
(3) Improve the quality of choices - especially feats, powers, and magic items, mainly by nerfing or incorporating the best ones.
Given that the game actually tends to get too easy, (even with MM3,) especially due to the dominance of certain powers, you could get a huge overall improvement by simply reading through charOP guides and nerfing all gold or sky blue choices except a precious few which should simply be added as class features (that is, the ones that feel central, and behave more like "gameplay/quality of life/viability patches". In fact, I think the majority of gold choices fall in this category,) to be given out either at level 1, or at some particular reasonable level integer.
Generally, the very best daily powers in particular tend to dominate the gameplay a lot, and you should probably not be very lenient with the best of them.

>>53247094
The problem with remaking 4e is that 4e is actually HUGE

The sheer number of character options is gigantic. Almost every class has at least 8 power options for every level where they gain a new encounter, daily or utility power, plus a whole lot more at level one and on top of that there's the powers and abilities you get from PPs and EDs and a fuckton of feats and, unlike 3.5, all of this is more or less balanced.

It's very telling that all 4e-like games, even those that have relatively little in common with 4e like 13th Age, have DRASTICALLY fewer options available

>>53246244
Something something shounen hero Ardent.

That'd be a silly but fun concept to play desu.

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>>53249721
What an interesting concept that I've never thought about.

I'm lying
I did it with bravura warlord though

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>>53249820
You. I like you.

I ran a Warden|Battlemind that was basically pic related - her Warden stuff was more to do with her clothing that anything else

>>53249721
>>53249820
>>53250128

Bravura Warlords are so much fun.

Idle question- If you were making a Weeb (or a less silly name for it) power source, what class would you assign to each role?

>>53250159
That's gonna be a tough challenge, now that I think of it. The first thing we have to do is identify what do we define as weeb. If we're going by shonen battle manga, there's too many 1v1 fights, which basically means everyone is a striker. If we're talking "weeb" as being anime and manga in general, I'd say you'd have to cover all the four main demographics - shounen, shoujo, seinen and josei; but by that point what defines the characters is a good question to raise.

Shounen is quite easy - the "LET'S SEE YOU GRIT THOSE TEETH" type of hero, what the majority of people associate with anime. It's quite easy to picture these guys as Strikers.

Shoujo again is quite easy to think of and come up with an almost... stereotypical version of it, it's the magical girl genre just in general, so Sailor Moon and the whole ordeal, really. I reckon these are the Controllers.

Seinen gets a bit more complex, given as there isn't a thing that truly makes us think of seinen; however given most seinen battle protagonists tend to fight multiple people at a time and in quite clever ways that rely more on controlling the space around them. These are probably the Defenders of this power source.

Josei's main recurring motif on battle series seems to be the idea of the power of life and deriving power from it, which is often the control over life and death as running points. They honestly seem like Leaders to me.

If we're talking applying classes, Barbarian, Mage/Wizard, Fighter and Cleric round out nicely what we'd want; although was it not for 4e being absolutely massive I would love to try and make a class from those ideas.

>>53250927

I could also see Shonen as defenders, in a way. They're often very loud and obvious and go on about protecting their friends. Attracting enemy attacks through sheer presence and throwing themselves into danger for their friends could also be fitting.

>>53251095
Shounen can also be a Leader, so they were actually the last one I settled for based on the others.

>>53251157

I could also see Shoujo as a leader, thinking upon it, being the loving and supporting center of things.

>>53251170
Josei kind of does those things while recurringly having healing powers, but yeah, I'm going broadstrokes here, if I were to actually delve into it I'd probably add different paths and stuff.

>>53249820
Makes me wanna do an ardent actually... but because I'm a hopeless munchkin, it's going to be focused around multiclassing with paladin.

Because fuck yeah, paladins! Also, multiclasing with a Defender gives you a bunch of cool benefits, such as a catch 22 with Unsteadying rebuke.

I have looked around and there isn't actually much material surviving as far as ardent optimization goes, and the only guide I found is strictly non-hybrid/multiclass.

Current paths I'm thinking:

>Hybrid with Paladin:
+Good Marking
+Virtuous strike (CHA MBA and has great feat support)
+Good weapons
+Heavy armor just a feat away
+Can go into Champion of Order (your opportunity attacks get bonus damage equal to CON!)

>Hybrid Cavalier
Like above but
+Aura means more AoE punishment, better action economy
+Smite!
-No Champion of Order

>Multiclass Paladin
+Don't give up any PPs or Ardent powers
+The Paladin Multiclass is amazing! Lets you keep the mark up for the entire combat!
+Champion of Order is an option
+CHA MBA if you are a Tiefling (along with AoE marking) with Wrath of the Crimson Legion
-No heavy armor

The tiefling multiclass paladin looks mighty tempting...

>>53252288
Hybrid Paladin desu. Basically Joan of Arc but more anime.

You can actually balance that out decently, plus you can go MC Fighter and do Second Wind stuff which plays really well with Wind of Sympathy.

>>53252288
>(your opportunity attacks get bonus damage equal to CON!)
No they don't.

>>53252441
Mantle of Elation, dude.

>>53248189
>>53248204
>>53248241
>>53248318
It is as >>53249018 said.

It is an overwhelming amount of work.

Sure, I really want a retroclone, and even tried to make one myself but couldn't decide to be as faithful as possible to 4e or to incorporate the best things of 5e and gave up on the idea.

What I would do:
- Scale encounter/daily powers the way at-will already scale, to avoid having identical powers, but one is 3[W] and the other is 7[W] (Brute Strike, I'm looking at you!). Reduces the power bloat and page count.
- Split utility into utility (non-combat) and support (combat) powers, to improve out-of-combat situations and make some powers real choices instead of just filler.
- Abolish feat bonuses: No more +2 damage if cold power. Feats add interesting options: Slide instead of push/pull, prone instead of pull and so on.
- Diminish item bonus. +1 per tier and that's it. MAgic items are magical because of their magic properties, not because of their magic bonuses.
- Fix math.
- Better explore what Essentials tried to do (break the AEDU) without doing it wrong (sucking cock of wizards and having 12 variants for them).
- (Don't know if I should) One of the critics of 4e was the extremely good formatted design with upfront rules. Since players like the obfuscated rules, the PHB would be that. DMG would remain as is. So a person buying a car knows about the looks and the engine, but it is the mechanic that knows every nook of it.
- Monsters would follow the MM3 math and add only templates over it. So you don't need a kobold level 1, one level 3, one level 7, one level 23. You use the MM3 math to get the base monster statistics and add on top of it the Kobold Trapper template. Or the Kobold Shaman template, with unique powers by class and by role.

>>53252751
>(Don't know if I should) One of the critics of 4e was the extremely good formatted design with upfront rules. Since players like the obfuscated rules, the PHB would be that. DMG would remain as is. So a person buying a car knows about the looks and the engine, but it is the mechanic that knows every nook of it.

Please don't, or if you do add in a compendium with clarified rules.

>>53252751
>>53252836
Why not use Strike!?

>>53252967
Because the d6-dependency is retarded and the non-combat stuff is fucking awful

Also I'm probably in the minority here but I like classes and roles being tied together instead of separate choices that you mash together

>>53253001
Strike!'s d6 dependency actually works. It's definitely not as swingy as it seems.

t. someone who's played Strike! a lot.

>>53252967

I looked at it and it seemed really streamlined and simplified. It might be for some people, but it lacked depth IMO.

The way I described it last time was describing the abilities a character has in a MOBA and an MMO.

In an MMO, you have highly complex character builds with a lot of interdependency, synergy and combo potential. It's often not easy to do and it takes work to figure out the best way to do things, but it's satisfying. 4e feels like this to me, in a good way.

Strike is more like a MOBA. A quite limited set of abilities with some choice but a very strong central theme, and a pretty clear and obvious way they're meant to work. There's still nuance and skill in getting the most out of them, but there's a lot less depth overall.

>>53252967
Don't know if you're StrikeFag, but it just doesn't looked like cool to me. And my retroclone would aim for a different approach than that of Strike!.

>>53253042
It's not even the swinginess, the 1d6 thing means that the only sort of bonuses you can give are static, whether they be bonuses to damage, healing, or esoteric buffs. And that's a bit boring. It also means all weapons are by necessity identical

>>53252751
>but couldn't decide to be as faithful as possible to 4e or to incorporate the best things of
I'd say if you're making a retroclone you don't need to literally clone it. If it does something odd or something else has come up that is better, use that. If you make a "2.0" of a thing, now is the time to use better ideas.
Depends on what it is though, really. Nothing you said seems to be "wrong."...except going back to a obfusacted PHB is kind of meh.

Strike throws out a fair amount (sometimes too much), but it's still a retroclone, IMO.

>>53253001
>but I like classes and roles being tied together instead of separate choices that you mash together

Literally the first time I've ever heard of this, and I want to know: why in the heck do you prefer that?

>>53253074
I was as surprised by >>53252967 as you.

I'm also working on a d20 rewrite that's using Strike! and 5e as base, with a bit of Legend in it.

Also, multiclass feats, for the optimizers in us all.

>>53253108
It means each class has more identity

Under Strike!'s system, a sorcerer and a wizard are the same class separated only by role, but in 4e there's a lot of nuance between them, and this is true pretty much across the board. On top of that, the concept of "off-roles" are more readily available in 4e, which again, makes every class feel more unique.

>>53253192
While true for classes, I don't think it's true for characters. Class variance isn't as important as character variance (in my opinion), and strike's feats are a lot more impactful in that regard. I feel that the path and power selections are also more balanced.

And the expansion classes are fucking ridiculous.

>>53253111
>>53253249
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?

>>53253192
Ah, I hear ya.
When you break class/role apart you can only be so specific and you have to watch for unexpected, overpowering combos. And you cant design too many synergies, because who knows what they'll pick? Or you have to design an absolute billion and end up with a ton of pages and edge-cases.

Strike hits a "Pretty close" mark while being fairly ...loose, but it loses out on some fine detail, unsurprisingly.

>>53253249
>And the expansion classes are fucking ridiculous.
They are. I think any retroclone absolutely needs to experiment with class design the way Strike is there - if you're making a retroclone, you should check the expansion playtest doc out and take a look.
Essentials (and PHB3) started to try to experiment with class design, but, well, essentials half-assed it , and PHB3 came "too late" so it didn't go too far.

>>53253111
>I'm also working on a d20 rewrite that's using Strike! and 5e as base, with a bit of Legend in it.
What do you got? I'll accept extremely rough notes in a notepad or whatever. I just like reading stuff and seeing ideas. I won't bully. I probably won't even comment.

The game is really quite "hackable". It's exceedingly simple - there's not much you have to think about to add whatever you want, like d6->d20, etc.
I'd like to ask 2HF if he can share what he has, as well...if he goes to these threads anymore. IIRC he was modifying stuff with the Tactical Combat section?

>>53253462
For the memes, Jim.

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>>53253729
I have less than four pages, and nothing really specific. Only spent like 30 mins on it so far... will have a lot more time soon probably though.

>>53253729
>I'd like to ask 2HF if he can share what he has, as well...if he goes to these threads anymore. IIRC he was modifying stuff with the Tactical Combat section?

I think he was trying to rewrite the out of combat section mostly. For tactical combat, he was looking at some method to make alpha-striking less good, which is not a bad idea actually.

>>53254075
Largely the first, yeah, but I remember him talking about something with Tac Combat. Maybe it was just that. Thought he was also doing something to do changing class design and power selection too, at least...to open it up even more.

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>>53253729

I monitor these threads from time to time, but frankly, there is just not that much to talk about.

I specialize in 4e character optimization for characters who will last for a few levels at most, and will be played in an actual game. I am definitely not someone to query if you want to plan some Morninglord or Radiant One build out to level 30.
For this, I need solid character creation rules: starting level, house rules, desired build, things like the DM's stance on Battle Cleric's Lore, and so on and so forth, which people are always reluctant to give. For instance, I would help >>53252288 with their build if only they would actually share these crucial character details.

People in these threads also tend to have negative reactions to pointing out the harsh realities of 4e's metagame, such as the fact that while its balance is leaps ahead of other D&D editions, there is still a very noticeable gap between optimization floor and optimization ceiling. Optimal parties look like something along the lines of "four nova strikers of the exact same build and one Intelligence warlord, with someone carrying minion-clearers."

There is not much to speak of in terms of new releases (4e is very much a dead game in that sense), which eliminates a potential source of discussion.

I am not a fan of speaking of homebrew content for 4e, because I do not see a point when 4e is oversaturated with content.

I definitely do not enter a 4e thread to discuss Strike! either, or any 4e retroclone, for that matter. Those deserve their own threads; there is absolutely no need to clog up a 4e thread with such things. And while we are at it, Strike! suffers the exact same problem of 4e, wherein the optimal party is four nova strikers with stooge/goon-clearers. Alpha striking dominates many RPGs.

I am currently in the midst of setting up a level 4 4e game for a group of players new to 4e and wishing to learn it, but there is little to speak of with regards to it.

>>53254120
Multiclass feats, and possibly handing one out for free at certain levels would go a long way in enabling concepts without having to go homebrew.

They are also fun to think about, especially if you consider all the design space they open up for characters.

>>53254212
>For instance, I would help >>53252288 (You) with their build if only they would actually share these critical character details.

I was thinking 11 so you can grab a PP. Pull out all the stops (use themes, dragon marks, any cheese you'd like except flying races), but it has to be Ardent and Paladin in some form, with a defender-y bent, preferably using a catch 22 with Unsteadying rebuke.

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>>53254238

>I was thinking 11 so you can grab a PP.

Is this for an actual game?

>>53254275
Nope, this is just because I realized I never really looked at the Ardent critically.

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>>53254339

Then any spitballing is fruitless. Non-house-ruled, theoretical, RAW-abiding 4e is a ~99% "solved" game, as the many archived CharOp builds that go to level 30 show us.

Over the course of 4e's run, the system has evolved/bloated to the point wherein any GM who is not totally new is going to have their own stances and opinions on starting level, free tax feats, Battle Cleric's Lore, Rhythm Blades, pixies, draconians, radiant damage, Essentials classes, Essentials hybrids, and so on and so forth. There is no one "consensus" for house rules.

On top of this, unless you are playing with good friends, you are probably not going to gain more than a few levels.

Furthermore, party optimization in 4e is quite important, all the more so for a leader class. For instance, if you would seek to play an ardent in an actual game, I would tell you to spam Forward-Thinking Cut's augment 2 and call it a day... provided that the party contains good chargers, and the starting level is 7+.

Speaking of which, charge optimization is another cancerous reality of 4e character optimization that makes it a dull game in practice.

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>>53254339
>>53254571

I can at least share this though. One paragon-tier ardent build that never gets talked about is a Mantle of Elation ardent/bard/Half-Elf Emissary with Elated Emotions.

By level 11, you add twice your Charisma modifier to your allies' Diplomacy and Intimidate checks and your Charisma modifier to your allies' Bluff and Streetwise checks.

>>53254571
Actually, as written, doesn't Forward Thinking Cut Augment 1 let you attack and then also charge? Since it's an "effect" line. That seems possibly exploitable.

Also, as said above, the guide I found didn't really cover things like multiclassing and hybriding for an Ardent. It was very superficial, to be honest.

And while I understand that optimizing for damage is already "done", optimizing for something sub-optimal could still be fun.

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>>53254753

That is covered here, yes:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Sigma_7/Broken_(4e)#Forward-Thinking_chargespam

It is a bit of a tortured reading, however. The Effect line is extremely awkwardly-worded, but "if you make a charge" does not mean "make a charge."

>>53254913
I was just thinking using it twice (the striker power reading), not infinite times.

Merely using a reach weapon would allow you to get 2 squares away from the target which would satisfy the conditions for a charge (you may have to pick up barreling charge, but I can't actually find a stipulation that you have to attack right away when the target is within reach).

How does a level 11 Long Night Scion Eladrin [Winter] fey-pact Warlock focused around cold magic and teleporting deal with cold resistances?

I am quite new to 4e and have no idea what options are even available here so could use a rough quick guide. Is there some feat, for example? I know Wizards have Burn Everything, but that's for wizards, and for fire.

I did google a bit and there's "Gloves of Ice" that can be acquired so one can bypass 5 Cold Resist (10 at epic). What are my other options? If there are no other good options, would making a "Burn Everything" feat swapped to be for Cold rather than Fire [and available to me] be "fair"?

>>53203991
Especially considering 4e is literally the least comfy version of DnD. Not bad by any means but certainly not comfy.

>>53255088
That's the danger of cold-damage optimization, there are very few ways around resistance outside of just being a white dragon sorcerer

And no, it wouldn't be "fair" because cold is already far, far superior for optimization purposes than fire thanks to frostcheese

>>53255389
It's a lot comfier than all the preceding editions thanks to rules-like language, funin.space and the CBLoader imo.

5e has made considerable progress in the area of all other comfy-ness, however.

>>53255487
The 5e spell list is anything but comfy

Hey, any idea where I can find the 4e gamma world book?

>>53255410
Fire has Firegoat-style builds and Firewind Blade, which makes it better than Cold at HighOp, but yeah, Cold is just absolutely common.

>>53255410
Aight, fair enough. Thanks for the info.


>>53255528
I got it right here: https://gofile.io/?c=5TzYW9
Gamma world 7e, aka "Gamma World using DnD 4e rules"
This would have been a good request for the pdf thread.

>>53255487
The idea of something being comfy isn't really a positive thing. Something comfortable is easy to digest sure but it's also something very familiar and re-tread. I'd argue that 4e was such a departure from older editions that while it was easier to digest, it's not wholly comfy due to how different it was. 5e is indeed all around comfier than most other editions due to being somewhat easy to digest and also a return to form. It's a really nice way of saying bland but bland that you enjoy like mac n cheese or PBnJ.

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>>53255487
>>53255689

Generally, when optimizing for cold, fire, or lightning/thunder, what you really need to worry about is demons.

Demons are a fairly generic enemy in all D&D editions, and 4e even has a book dedicated to them, the Demonomicon.

A demon's variable resistance is a reliable method of screwing over cold-, fire, or lightning/thunder-dependent builds.

Fire at least has more methods for penetration, as has been established previously.

>Less shitposting, more content.
>Use character generator and adventure tools.
>Post builds and monsters.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Cerius, level 12
Deva, Wizard, Blood Mage
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Cold
Arcane Admixture Power: Scorching Burst
Background: Early Life - Isolated (Perception class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 23, Wis 16, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 28 Fort: 20 Reflex: 25 Will: 24
HP: 67 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +17, Dungeoneering +14, Perception +14, Insight +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +7, Heal +9, History +14, Intimidate +6, Nature +9, Religion +14, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Thievery +8, Athletics +5

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 8: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 10: Burning Blizzard
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Lasting Frost

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard at-will 1: Nightmare Eruption
Wizard encounter 1: Icy Terrain
Wizard daily 1: Phantom Chasm
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Freezing Cloud
Wizard utility 2: Familiar Harrier
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Shield
Wizard encounter 3: Icy Rays
Wizard daily 5: Bigby's Icy Grasp
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Glitterdust
Wizard utility 6: Fire Shield
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Familiar's Call
Wizard encounter 7: Winter's Wrath
Wizard daily 9: Face of Death
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Summon Succubus
Wizard utility 10: Mass Resistance
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Phoenix Step

ITEMS
Spellbook, Brooch of Shielding +2, Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier), Defensive Staff +3, Accurate staff of Ruin +3, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) of Resistance +2

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>>53255976

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>>53256155

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>>53256216

File: Blue Khen.pdf (111KB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

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>>53256260

File: Black Khen.pdf (115KB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

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>>53256281

>>53252751
There's nothing wrong with AEDU (except possibly dailies being too good), and the Essentials approach generally speaking turned classes into cookie cutter clones with no variance between them. Going that way will either lead you to a dead end, or to a less-flexible 5e/3.5e approximation not even a mother could love.

The Slayer is a POWERFUL class, and it was certainly nice to have an option for people who didn't like to make character build choices (a la the 5e champion fighter, except the slayer is actually powerful) but there's nothing further interesting to explore about the essentials "pseudo 3.5e compromise" class structure.

>>53253101
Why roll dice if you're not interested in representing your character's level of aptitude, specifics of the situation, and so on, with any granularity whatsoever?
What's the fucking point then?

>>53256155
>>53256216
Right click on the creature entry, select copy image, open paint, click paste or hold control+v, select crop, then zoom, save and repost.

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>>53256339

The slayer is powerful only with:

A. Martial Cross-Training (Rain of Blows) and a weapon that qualifies for it.
B. Charging optimization.
C. Half-elf Twin Strike tomfoolery, which activates only at the paragon tier.

Without these oddly specific optimization components, the slayer starts strong at levels 1-2 and then quickly falls off into irrelevance as the levels go by.

why do yall still play 4e when 5e is better?

>>53256405
Made these three years ago. We stop playing about the same time. They are probably not in the Builder any more. Take them or leave them.

>>53256421
Why do y'all play chess when poker is better?

>>53256383
what are you talking about?

What I was specifically referring to was how you can't add extra dice rolls on top of other dice rolls in Strike!. You can't deal 1d8 extra damage, or heal 2d6 more health when healed by a leader because everything is built around rolling only one die at a time, and that's excising a huge amount of design possibilities

>>53256421

Because 5e is bland, tasteless garbage that does nothing new while 4e, for all its faults, actually had a strong and focused design that does what it was intended to extremely well.

>>53256300
>>53256281
>>53256260
>>53256216
>>53256155


a few things

1) these are all variations on the same monster. they all have pretty much the same theme.
2) there is no divine damage type. there is radiant, and necrotic, but divine isn't a damage type, its a power tag, like arcane or implement.
3) These aren't really controller types. they are more like soldier types with aura's.

Their gaze attack is neat, but is there any fluff reasons why it has a gaze attack? Why are they able to dominate people? Do they have psychic powers?

>>53256421
the older the game, the older the player base. I don't want to hang around with a bunch of teeny boppers.

>>53256509
I was just pitching in some bitching over the fact that their core check mechanic doesn't have room for modifiers due to using such a tiny die size.

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>>53256599
They were meant to be 4e ethergaunts without being obviously ethergaunts until I was ready to reveal that. Ethergaunts hate religion so I decided that they would develop resistance to the energy divine power user harness. Same with the primal keyword. Ethergaunts have aura's they activate when they open there masks.

>>53256669
>>53256509
Modifiers aren't really important, but it can easily handle +/-1 (2d6 variant could handle up to +/-2 or 3 maybe).

Minor differences like healing 10% more aren't worth noting imo.

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Here are some gem dragonborn enemies I made towards the end of the last campaign we played.

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>>53256758

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>>53256774

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>>53256791

>>53256702
What about differences like having 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, or 20 in a stat?

What about differences like being basic, expert, or master at something?

What about environmental or situational modifiers?

Seriously why even roll dice if you don't want them to represent anything?

>>53256869
>What about differences like having 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, or 20 in a stat?

Exactly the kind of small differences that aren't worth worrying about. The entire thing adds up to a difference of +5, so maybe the difference of 10-20 is okay, the rest is needlessly granular. But that comes down to taste

>What about differences like being basic, expert, or master at something?

Covered by skill levels optional rules actually.

>What about environmental or situational modifiers?

Advantage/disadvantage, and +/-1s are in the system by default (in fact, you can go down to -3 if the character is really hurt).

>>53256923
>Covered by skill levels optional rules actually.

I realize I didn't actually explain how it works, and maybe you don't know anything about the game.

You just roll on a different table, depending on your level of proficiency, which has modified results for your skill level instead of adding bonuses.

Essentially the same result, mechanically.

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For a game that is to be played at only levels 4 and 5, I am starting to think that an Inspiring Presence warlord might just be a good fit to support a party consisting of an Eyebite paladin|cavalier, a Covenant of Wrath invoker, and an archer ranger. My rationale is Inspired Belligerence (warlord utility 2) and Warlord's Favor (warlord utility 3). Am I going crazy here?

I worry that the Inspiring Presence action point feature will be useless for round-one novas. Am I underestimating it?

An artificer would probably be a better fit, but I worry about three-quarters of the party having to cluster together for Magic Weapon.

The invoker will be handling some Intelligence-based skills.

>>53256923
>that comes down to taste
You're certainly right about that. Pfff

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I quickly combined anon's Zhen and Gem Dragonborns into 1 .pdf.

It ain't a neat picture per se, but at least they're all together in one file.

>>53257907
Thanks. Do you guys want more? I have some other goodies I cooked up for those campaigns.

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Thoughts?

Just messing around in GIMP.

>>53258159
I mean
It looks ok.

That much use of the SC font might be a bit heavy handed - pretty sure the game doesn't use it for *everything* for a reason
I'd remove the "0" in your speed, fix centering on a bunch of stuff

But it's cool that you're actually trying to make it look all 'Crafty.
Don't procrastinate making the actual mechanics by making art, though.

>>53258159
Looks cool, needs numbers for skills and I assume they will have more powers that need to be listed as well.

I'm loving the 4E renaissance /tg/ has been having lately

>>53252751
>- (Don't know if I should) One of the critics of 4e was the extremely good formatted design with upfront rules. Since players like the obfuscated rules, the PHB would be that. DMG would remain as is. So a person buying a car knows about the looks and the engine, but it is the mechanic that knows every nook of it.

I would really like it if every power got the vague prose explanation of what happens and how you might use this sort of thing that you get out of a 3.5 spell block, and a nice little 4E power block in the corner.

So that a Fireball acknowledges that, indeed, you can use it to light things on fire. And if you try to light a person on fire here's a power block.

(And ideally some effort would be made to make every power have some token out-of-combat use. Which in most cases I think prose blocks do a better job of.)

(And of course this would make adding scaling bonuses / trimming the power list / adding class features that break AEDU even more necessary because powers are huge now, but I think those are all good things already.)

>>53262077
I wouldn't call it a renaissance yet, but yeah, it's nice.

We aren't even getting trolled much anymore.

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With regards to the cleric (templar) versus the cleric (warpriest), under the context of a game that starts at level 4, would it overpower the warpriest compared to the templar if the warpriest was to receive its level 5 domain upgrade, its level 8 resurrection, and its level 10 domain upgrade all at level 1? I imagine the templar would still be a major contender with scale armor, Battle Cleric's Lore, and Favor of the Gods.

I am operating under the assumption that a warpriest can, in fact, simply retrain away their level-numbered powers.

>>53264950
It doesn't seem extremely powerful, and the domain abilities are fun. Resurrection is mostly a ribbon, unless the campaign is lethal as shit, in which case having it early is a godsend.

I'd say it looks ok, unless you have some specific issues in mind.

>>53258159
Cool, I could make an online builder based on that.

Playing around with the Character Builder, anyone have recommendations for Feats, Backgrounds, etc etc that are non-combat oriented.

4e is heavily combat oriented, not that other editions arent, but I like being a utility character and i have this obsession with building D&D characters that are balanced through the 3 pillars; Combat, Social, Exploration.

What are everyone's thoughts on Skill Challenges? I really like them, but I almost think not telling the players what a skill challenge is or that one is starting is more interesting because the players will see it more as a narrative/cinematic experience than a pure gameplay experience to be minmax'd

>>53271046
You should NEVER tell your players "alright, it is a S-S-S-S-SKILL CHALLENGE!"
SC is a framework where you better manage the interaction fo the players. Before, as a DM, you didn't knew how many skill rolls were necessary to find your way through Mirkwood. Now you know you need x successes before y fails, that a failed state means a random encounter, that Perception can help navigate, being an Elf count as 1 success...

You roll with it naturally.

>>53271008
Depends on what class you go with. Basically everyone has non-combat options, but they are usually class specific. Almost everyone takes a multiclass feat because they are great and come with a skill training, for example, but then there's an option for bards that essentially makes them skilled at every skill, and wizards have so many powers that are "replace a skill check with an Arcana check" that you can make an autistically arcana wizard who uses his magical knowledge for literally everything.

Up above for example, there's the half-elf Ardent who makes everyone in the group a beast at both Diplomacy and Intimidation.

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>>53271008
>>53271272

The single most optimizable skill in the entire system is Arcana. You can push Arcana inordinately high with a combination of background, theme, and magic items (e.g. Moran's Eye at the paragon tier for a +5 untyped bonus to Arcana checks).

You can then use Arcana in place of many skills, using wizard cantrips, Arcane Mutterings, Binding Mastery, Exploration Mastery, Sorcerous Vision, and the like.

It also helps to have an Arcane Familiar (sprite) for minor action magic detection and yet another bonus to Arcana checks.

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>>53271008
>>53272333

Apart from Arcana optimization, a few pieces of low-cost, high-value noncombat optimization include:

• The Bardic Knowledge and Bard of All Trades feats for bards.
• The Courtier theme, which gives Diplomacy many benefits at levels 1, 5, and 10.
• The Ioun's Revelation (level 3) alternative reward, which is arguably overpowered due to granting a +2 item bonus to all skill checks.

>>53272383
What is a Theme? That was never part of character creation at the 4e games I participated in. But neither were Backgrounds so I think i might be missing alot lol.

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Anyone got pdfs of the Dark Sun 4e books? I'm working on setting up a roll20 campaign for Dark Sun but I need easy access to the fluff.

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>>53272957

As of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Dragon Magazine #399, and/or the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, you can select a single theme for your character.

A theme is a package consisting of a free level 1 benefit, optional power swaps at various levels, and, for all non-Dark-Sun themes, free level 5 and 10 benefits.

>>53273246
Themes are not built into the Character Builder program, correct?

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>>53273308

They are built into the CBLoader, should you have successfully installed that, and into the online Character Builder, should you keep an Insider subscription.

What do you folks think about Hybrid characters? I never got to play one before my group moved onto 5e and has now moved onto the DM's completely homebrew system.

>>53273668
Hybrid characters are terrible, fun, balanced, and OP as fuck, depending entirely on what you hybrid together

For example, a common charop suggestion is to hybrid cleric for free armor proficiency, which is boring as shit, and hybrid essentials classes are just stupid in terms of how much stuff they give you. Meanwhile hybrid fighter/ranger is basically ranger + fun

I know the "best" party is a bunch of high op strikers and a leader but for the following level 5 party, what are some good Defender options?

>Pacifist Cleric
>Orb Wizard
>Artful Dodger Rogue
>Dragon Sorcerer (Fire)

Everyone is human, by the way.

>>53274212

4e is great because you really don't need to care about 'best'. The game functions no matter what. A low/zero op character won't fit into a high op party, and vice versa, but if you straddle the middle ground it still works fine.

>>53274212
I think with a ranged heavy group like that, you'd want someone very sticky, so fighter or warden.

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>>53273668
>>53274103

I am not a fan of hybrid characters in general, because there are too many obviously overpowered hybrids (e.g. assassin [executioner]|warlock, cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore, paladin|warlock, paladin [cavalier]), while many other hybrids are underpowered if not middling.

>>53274103

You arguably do not even need to be a hybrid cleric for Battle Cleric's Lore. The Divine Healer multiclass feat allows for Battle Cleric's Lore to be taken, 100% RAW, because Battle Cleric's Lore does not actually require you to be a cleric. You can thank Mike Mearls for sloppily and single-handedly writing that cleric article in Dragon Magazine #400.

>>53274212
>>53274297

At level 5, I would recommend a generic shield fighter thanks to Glowering Threat's ability to mass-"mark," or a generic Charisma/Wisdom paladin due to the mass-sanctioning of Valorous Smite and Call of Challenge.

If you care at all about noncombat capacities, the Charisma/Wisdom paladin will almost certainly pull their weight more out of battle, particularly with a theme like Courtier.

>>53274271

And a high-optimization party is the kind of madness that looks like "four nova strikers of the exact same build and one Intelligence warlord, some with minion-clearers, who are also possibly Morninglords."

>>53273387
So i got the CBLoader to work. This now makes me want to play 4e over 5e.

I love having all these layers of customization

Class
Race
Background
Theme
Feats

Really, it's just 1 more than 5e, but everyone gets a level 1 feat, choosing a multiclass feat really adds some more flavor in there.

There is a part of me that just likes looking at all the Powers Tab and seeing this huge list of things I can do at level 1. Tickles my fancy.

Here is the thing most people don't realize about the game: What works while you are playing isn't what works when you make a build. I make extensive use of retraining, because the powers you pick at level 5 isn't going to be optimized for your build at level 11.

For example, lasting frost is a paragon level feat, so until then you might want to use arcane fire instead. That means shuffling all your icy/hot powers into pure ice at later levels is more efficient than relying on your initial build, and you can retrain arcane fire at a later level.

You need experience playing the game in order to make a good build and see what works with your team.

I think defenders AC is abysmal compared to dex/int classes. Other classes have all these AC boosts that defenders don't get, so you end up with monks and wizards having higher AC's than fighters and paladins.

Another thing I don't like about 4e is the fluff for the new archetypes, there is nothing really classical or memorable about new classes like the avenger or warlock, and some of the "newer" classics like sorcerors (stikers? really?) are misrepresented, along with traditional druids and such. (Druid as controllers? C'mon now, they are SO leaders)

>>53275914
>avenger or warlock

I hate the idea of a warlock as a protagonist. If you make some deal with some eldritch being, you should be an NPC villian.

I feel like Avengers would have been cool if they were refluffed as something less corny, and Invokers felt so tacked on. They are both divine classes that really seemed like an excuse to use some new mechanic with all the fluff just sort of tacked on as an afterthought.

I wish there were villian only classes.

>>53275914
I think they tried to pidgeonhole each combination, so for Arcane, the Controller is the Wizard,the Leader is the Bard (but then they shoved Sorcerer and Warlock into Strikers).

Druid, I think, was to get away from the hippie-Cleric (and thus, a Leader) idea.

Most of the time, you could see what they were going for. Barbarians are raw damage, one hitter quitters, fighters are tough as nails defenders, designed to grind down opponents with consistent hits, monks are strikers that specialize in multiple opponents, wizards are aoe specialists, theives are heavy dps builds with combat manueverability, Rangers are ranged DPS...

But sometimes the design philosophy seems to fall apart. There are all these classes whose powers have no synergy or are lacking an overall theme.

Leaders, especially, are abysmal, clerics do buffs and heals better than any other class and are superior in almost every way to other leader classes.

Warlords were super cool but they are so bad at healing that they were almost like strikers that also had heals. Avengers had a few cool mechanics but their fluff was held together with a ball of string and some rusty nails, and most of the defender classes were just strictly worse than striker builds, even when strikers were functioning as defenders.

>>53276127
Basically, what I'm saying is that 4e focused far too heavily on strikers. Every leader class except for clerics just straight up sucked, controllers were all over the place, and defenders were solid but underperformed strikers in almost all respects.

The other thing I found about 4e is that most monsters were just straight up xp fodder, they were way too easy. When monsters were a challenge, they tended to grind up our healing surges way too quickly, but when they were nerfed like they usually were we could usually end a fight in 2 or 3 turns without having to expend a daily or sometimes even a single healing surge.

I don't think this was an issue with the number of healing surges so much as it was how little HP a healing surge gave you without cleric shenanigans. Basically every healer should get to add their primary or secondary stat bonuses to heals.

You really want to put your elites and mini-bosses at milestones to avoid running out of surges.

>>53276321
the only other thing I'd like to mention is that most monsters just have way too many hit points at the later levels. PC Damage doesn't really scale so later on the fights really tend to drag on and on.

But you know, aside from all those criticisms, 4e is just really solid, well built game. It just works.

>>53276349

This is a known issue, use MM3/MV monster math.

>>53276169
>Every leader class except Clerics straight up sucked

You have that a bit backwards, clerics are probably the worst straight leader class. Seeing as they have no at-will enabling power and very few proper enabling powers at later levels, and they're worse than Artificers at straight buffing thanks to powers like Magic Weapon just being so damn good

>>53277716
see, when you say things like that it makes me think you are stupid.

Clerics
+implement bonus to heals
+wisdom bonus to heals
+item bonus to heals
+at-will that grants a saving throw
+at will that grants temp hp
+class feature close burst 5 healing extravaganza

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Is there any reason to use a spiked gauntlet over a talid or gauntlet axe?

>>53278148
>+class feature close burst 5 healing extravaganza
wut

>>53278148

You're acting like healing is the most important thing Leaders can do.

It's not.

>>53278329
sorry, low blood sugar

a party is lucky to get 1 leader, and if you've got a party of 5 or 6 people, you need to stretch your heals as far as you can.

having access to healers mercy can prevent a party wipe. I guarantee you if you have more than 4 players in your group and don't take cleric with Healers Mercy, you will run out of heals.

>>53278314
Healers Mercy

>>53279000

You don't need healing if the enemy is dead. This is why enablers are considered more important than healers.

Healing can be useful, sure, there's a reason every Leader gets some. But the ability to act as a force multiplier and make all your party that much more effective at taking down the enemy can often prevent more damage than any amount of healing, by killing off enemies quickly and efficiently, therefore reducing the potential damage output of your opponents.

>>53279138
>You don't need healing if the enemy is dead.

this is how most parties die.

>>53279022
Ah. That's quite the strong panic button. It does cost you almost all your contribution toward ending the fight for two rounds, though, and only heals bloodied allies. It's very nice but I think you're overestimating it.

>>53279197

No? That's how almost all Leaders work. Even non-healbot clerics. 4e Leaders are force multipliers and combat support. Healing is a single part of their purview. An important one, but not necessarily the most important one.

Warlords are a perfect example. Warlords are fucking amazing at making the other guys die way, way faster than they would otherwise, by handing out bonus attacks like candy. The little bit of healing you throw out is helpful, sure, but a couple of bonus attacks that kills off the brute a few turns early will negate damage just as effectively as huge healing.

>>53279267
Like I said, warlord is awesome, but its more Striker than a Leader. Warlords heals are pretty meh.

>>53279315

Nope. Warlord is pure Leader, despite weak heals. That's what I'm saying. Ally enhancement and boosting the efficiency of the group is directly within the 'Leader' purview in terms of 4e design philosophy. Restricting your thoughts to just healing or defensive stuff is strictly wrong, by word of dev.

>>53279315
No, Strikers hit things themselves. Leaders make others hit more/better. That is what Warlords excel at. Warlord is thoroughly a Leader.

>>53279242
Its not just healers mercy, its the stacked bonuses they get from their other healing abilities. They add their wis bonus right off the bat, for +5. They have a feat that adds their implement bonus to heals, and can dual wield holy healer weapons which when you hit paragon tier is another +5 plus 2 mini surges.

>>53279345
>>53279342
warlord with commanders strike is still a dps build. That makes it a striker.

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>>53279568

Can y'all shut up about "warlord striker" and just agree that the best 5 man party is S/D/C/Healer/Warlord?

>>53279584
alright, let me ask you a question. If you play a druid in WOW and volunteer on a mission as a healer, how much shit would the rest of the party give you?

If all you had was a druid and a paladin in 3.5, how long would it take before the monsters ground you into dust?

Our DM was too nice, he let us take extended rests even when they weren't warranted and never rolled for wandering monsters.

>>53279568
nah, that makes your striker a striker, it makes you a leader

>>53279568

Uh. No. You are literally, factually wrong. From chapter 2 in the PHB-

>Leaders inspire, heal, and aid the other characters in an adventuring group. Leaders have good defenses, but their strength lies in powers that protect their companions and target specific foes for the party to concentrate on.

All i'm saying is that a leader who can't into heals isn't a very good leader. You're opponents will wear you down.

>>53279682

And you are factually, provably wrong, both by optimisation maths, practical experience of the system and the core books own fucking word.

It literally directly cites a key function of leaders as helping focus down particularly troublesome enemies. It mentions that in more direct terms than it does their ability to heal.

>>53279650
>how much shit would the rest of the party give you?
None?
>how long would it take before the monsters ground you into dust?
No longer than it would normally take. Both Druids and Paladins have access to wands of CLW, which is far better than packing a Cleric for the sole purpose of throwing healing spells. That said Cleric is a blatantly overpowered class that is just as busted as Druid is, but healing isn't why.

>>53279682
Preventative >>>>>>> curative. Always has been, always will be.

>>53279568
>Dominant criticism of 4e that it's too much of an mmo
>People ITT literally arguing over the MMO-style role of a class
I have no dog in the edition war but I just wanted to comment on this

>>53279714
This coming from the guy who thinks blowing two dailies on a nova is good long term strategy. If you have more than 4 people and you don't have a cleric as your leader, you will run out of heals if the combat is at all challenging.

>>53279781

As someone who has played a Warlord, you are hilariously fucking wrong.

Fuck, I've played a lot of Leaders, and you know what? Healing is almost never the most important part of what I do. Healing is for when you've fucked up and let something dangerous survive too long, or when you just get unlucky. Your ability to boost your allies, increase their damage potential and end the fight more quickly is infinitely more effective than trying to outlast them in a war of attrition.

>>53279781
I mean, look, if you were playing shadowrun or some other game with increased lethality and emphesis on first strike capability, I would agree with you.

But 4e is a defensive game, it has a bit of a grind to it. If you use all your encounter powers and don't win by turn 2, you're going to have to blow a daily or get stuck grinding out a victory with you're at wills and auxillary abilities.

Some things are just too big to alpha strike, you'll never take them out in single turn.

>>53279815
You've probably never had a real challenge then. If everything you fight goes down in less than 3 rounds, you're DM needs to up the ante.

>>53279781
idk, there are so many ways to heal in 4e that i am not sure this is 100% true. The second wind, potions, and Dwarven armor just to name a few from the PHB

>>53279848
Or your DM is a shithead who wants a return to the days of MM1-PHB1-DMG1 4E and its padded sumo horseshit. No thanks.

>>53276169

>Artificer
>Warlord
>Shaman
>Bad Leaders

I mean, ignoring the fact that Artificers could just SHIT out Temp HP (Even better than regular healing), all 3 of those were massively good at supporting allies.

>>53279815
Also, likely your DM isn't keeping track of damage and healing surges. No matter what you do, you're going to get hit, you're going to take damage, and the damage adds up.

>>53279876

What the fuck are you even talking about?

>>53279871
Would you watch a boxing match if you knew it was going to be over in 3 rounds?

>>53279898
Yes? Quick, brutal fights are way more interesting than 1 hour slugfests.

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>>53279887
no need to get hostile, beavis.

>>53279848
>>53279876

>muh hardcore arpegees

Fuck off.

>>53279913
ok there slugger.
just keep pressing the "I win" button

>>53279933

Are you really so stupid that you can't comprehend the idea of a fight that's both short but also tense? Do you really think the only way to have something be 'difficult' is for it to come down to bullshit attrition?

>>53279933
Keep jacking off to fights where you do 1/100th of an enemy's HP per round, I'm sure that'll go over well.

Oh wait, it's why everyone bitched and bitched and bitched until WotC fixed the math. It was shit and nobody but the literal worst people to play with liked it.

was there ever any amusing homebrew content for 4e?
Like sci-fi conversions and such? I've been looking for some time and nothing comes up

>>53280132

The problem with homebrewing for 4e is that it's hard. Like, it takes a lot of effort to make a class and a lot of powers and feat support and then balancing it all...

The system has more to it, so whereas with other editions people can just throw together some barely functional bullshit and call it good, setting a very low baseline for making an attempt, 4e demands a pretty significant level of effort and investment before providing any functional returns.

>>53280161
most of the powers are filler.

there are 20+ options for each slot but usually only 2 or 3 "good" ones. You could save yourself a lot of time and energy by just making 5 good powers instead of writing 20 bad ones.

>>53279779
But this is an argument between someone who thinks leaders should follow an MMO role versus people who actually know what 4E's roles are.

The MMO roles are tank, dps, healer, crowd control.
The 4E roles are defender, striker, leader, controller.

All of 4E's roles are actually quite different from the MMO role I paired them with (because MMOs work on aggro management and 4E works on positioning and action economy), and healer to leader is the single biggest gap.

>>53280132
see the beginning of the thread.

>>53280226

Even making *one* balanced power per slot is a lot of work. 2-3 powers per slot, which are balanced, have good internal synergy but avoid any accidental/unwanted interactions? It is more effort than most people are willing to invest.

>>53280132
4E came out around the same time as SotC so it used to be pretty popular to do 4E+Aspects. I also considered replacing the entire skill system with Risus, but then that spiraled out of control and became a different system.

If the designers didn't want attrition to be part of the game, then why did they include healing surges?

>>53280357

Because long term/adventuring day resource management is a completely distinct element from fights that boil down to a drawn out slog rather than a quick, brutal and entertaining engagement.

>>53280271
>>53280333
The problem is there aren't really any builder tools. You can't really run 4e without software, and there is no software for designing new classes, powers, ect.

The entire game is about attrition.
It's the entire point of AEDU [especially those last 3], the "adventuring day", and so forth.

It just doesn't want it to be (too) slow.

>>53280382

You can make new .part files and import them into cbloader easily enough.

>>53280369
>We only spend healing surges when something goes wrong

t. One-Pump-Chump

>>53280405

...What?

>>53280405
>fights in 4E always take 8 rounds so Clerics are the only real leaders, trust me guys, i know what I'm talking about, ignore everyone else who's saying I'm full of shit
t. retard

>>53280496

The funny thing? Clerics don't get any more uses out of their healing power than anyone else.

Artificers are the much better option for long-term healing as they can use anyone's healing surges to fuel the infusions rather than just the target.

>>53280496
strawman, strawman, ad hominim, appeal to consensus, adhominim

>>53280357
Healing surges exist to separate the rate of attrition over the course of a day from the attrition over the course of a battle.

So you can take 100 damage a day but still die to 20 damage each battle (not 4E's actual numbers).

>>53280546

Fallacy fallacy

>>53280558
I'm not the one who just made 5 logical fallacies in less than two sentances, kid.

>>53280546
It's not a strawman when literally everything you've been posting is in line with that. The game as written hasn't produced the kind of gameplay you're talking about at any point after Expertise feats were introduced.

>>53280581
sorry, 7. forgot the "t. retard" which is both a strawman and an ad homonim.

>>53280581

No, you made five logical fallacies in eight words.

The 'Fallacy fallacy' is a real thing you know. The idea that by pointing out a logical fallacy in your opponents argument you can somehow discredit and dismiss their point out of hand. Which isn't, y'know, how fallacies actually work.

>>53280623

Forgive me, nine words, missed your typo while skimming your post.

>>53279933
I really wish I knew where this wave of giant fucktards who want nerf bat combat and think most RPGs have instant win combat because it's actually lethal came from.

>>53280599
>It's not a strawman when literally everything you've been posting is in line with that.

so your saying the purpose of all that hyperbole was not the defamation of my character?

>>53280653

Nobody is interested in defaming your character. We don't give a fuck about you. We're just calling you an idiot who has absolutely no understanding of how 4e works as a game, and you've provided absolutely no reason to disbelieve this.

>>53280667
sure showed me.

>>53280667
are you always this sensitive?

>>53280653
No, the purpose of that post was calling you a fucking retard for repeatedly insisting that no guys trust me the game TOTALLY works this way, ignore the numbers in the book and literally everyone who played 4E. "Warlords are shit leaders because they can't heal, Clerics are the only real leaders" is a stupid as fuck position that'd get you laughed out of any experienced 4E group and pretending that the thing that drove so many people away from 4E at first was anything but shit is stupid as fuck too.

>>53280721
brrr! so serious!

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>>53280653
>not the defamation of my character?

How can it be defamation of character if we don't know who you are? This is an anonymous image board.

>>53280767
This wouldn't be an issue if you weren't being blatantly retarded and accusing peoples' DMs of never challenging them while calling the Warlord shit.

You know, the class that nearly the entire 4E community thinks is the strongest, and for very good reasons.

Why is it shit? Because it can't heal. The least important part of being a Leader.

>>53280867
well now you're just reaching.

>>53279315

Warlords have amazing heals, what the hell are you talking about?

They have powers like Stand the Fallen, along with incredible support for inspiring word, including adding a saving throw to it at the cost of a d6 in heroic, adding either of their secondary stats to it, adding damage and accuracy to the target of it and, oh yeah. Getting one more use of it than any other leader class gets for their heal.

Warlords are to leaders what fighters are to defenders. The jack of all trades, master of one. No one can beat warlords at enabling, yet warlords are still competitive at buffing, debuffing and healing

>>53281039
>reaching
>>53279848
>>53276169

>>53281259
keep backpedaling, you're almost there!

>>53281300
What?

>>53281300
Nobody would have to do anything if you'd own up to making stupid posts.

>>53281561
its okay bud. let it out.

>>53281300
>>53281561
>>53281759
I don't understand, who's arguing on which side?

I don't know who >>53281300 is or who they thought I was, did you think I was originally arguing that clerics were better than warlords? Or that warlords were better than clerics? Because if I was either one my stance on warlord healing could be construed as "backpedalling"