Medieval West: campaign setting spitballing

>>53184400
It'd certainly be neat. I'd play, but as an American any major inaccuracies that wouldn't have been changed by the premise would tweak my autism.

And as an historian it'd be doubly so. Especially in regards to how you expanded/evolved Central and South American growth without Conquistadores being the first major contact point.

>>53184400
All of my yes. Would you keep the whole smallpox killing off most of the natives thing or no, cus I can see it going well either way

>>53184400
I've always wanted to know what Native American cultures were like thousands of years ago.

The typical "lol, racism" answers seems like it would be "pretty much the exact same" but I have some serious doubts.

Side-related. I want to see how European warriors of that age stood against Aztec/Mayan warriors at their peak.

>>53184680
I could see things being a lot more even, as europeans had yet to establish their long legacy of resistance to illnesses. On the flipside, I could see the use of colonists or folks with the black death being used strategically, lead by plague doctor types.

Natives would essentially be fighting to keep the apocalypse off their fucking continent.

>Knights exploring awesome untamed Alaskan landscape

All of my yes.

File: 200_s.gif (34KB, 319x200px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 319x200px

>>53184973
>Gravity Falls in early 15th century

>>53184680
>>53184802
You could probably fluff it up as being similar to the European plague - devastating, but not to downright apocalyptic levels.

>>53184802
The black death was a big issue in Europe mostly because of the huge amount of people living in a single city with absolutely no hygiene and trading contaminated goods also helped a lot.
Natives Americans had none of those issues.
I wonder how much of an impact they could actually do with that. And btw how would they convince sick dying people to travel by boat to another continent, and how would they manage to make them survive the journey and the travel to enemy villages?

>>53185932
I doubt it'd be feasible with such a long journey.

Did the Europeans ever use Black Death as a weapon anyway? I thought it was just the mongols.

Alternative version: Pagan Vikings flee Europe as Scandinavia become more and more Christian. Over time, they go all CROATOAN native because there just aren't enough Vikings to keep their culture going.

500 years later, the Europeans begin the colonization of the Americans and they're all getting their heads smashed in by Native American Huskarls going all guerilla warfare.

>>53184400
Sounds pretty sweet desu

>>53184400
Look up Inland Empire on 1d4chan.

>>53184400
A norse/native american mythology hybrid would be interesting. Just like a lot of north american folklore is a mix of christianity and native mythology.

So let's say that enough viking colonists make it to america to form a substantial population. What king of hybrid mythology might emerge from that.

Hunting grounds/ valhalla hybrid?
Wendigo/ frost giant?
Moose riding valkyries!

>>53187468
Coyote and Loki buddying it up.

Add some Deadlands to that mix and you're good to go.

>>53187468
BEAR THOR

WITH ALL THE STRENGTH OF THOR AND THE CUNNING OF BEAR

WHAT OTHER GOD DARE YE WORSHIP.

>>53187468
One of the biggest clashes of mythology would be Thunder and lightning.

See, in Norse Mythology, Thunder and Lightning are Thor's domain. It strikes the wicked and the evil. Get struck by lightning? You were probably an evil bastard or just unlucky.

In Native Myth, the Thunderbird is 100% grade A cunt and is avoided at all costs.

Now, Thor's Worship was so fucking strong because his image is literally the heroic Defender of Mankind, like some kind of ancient age Superman.

>>53189026
Maybe instead of combining the two, they'd end up being enemies?

>>53185932
>>53185968
The plague traveled on flea-ridden rats, the rats commonly climbed aboard ships in port.

>>53188935
>the plague/small pox causes corpses to rise and attack the living
this sounds like a game for GURPS

>>53188983
MOOSE THOR

>>53184744
Aztecs literally used sticks with sharps stones lad, they would literally never get through full plate

>>53190097
And how would those rats proliferate in a village where there's only tents and no sewers? The rats would have nowhere to hide and would get eaten by other animals before they would get the chance to infect people.

>>53190784
Indeed. But catching up with an enemy who have metal weapons and armor would be way easier than catching up with firearms.
Also fighting in a jungle with full plate would be impossible. It would be way easier to fight/survive with light armor and then the only advantage Europeans would get would be the superior weapons that would be easily looted by the natives.

I think Europeans would have a hard time conquering South America like that.

>>53192063
Then you have fleas infesting the blankets, the tents, and the other animals. Similar issues.

>>53192268
But much easier to control when the population is small and scattered and people actually bathe themselves.

>>53184400
Sounds great. Make it happen.

>>53192231
Don't forget that with there being less Europeans at the time to begin with they probably couldn't have afforded to send so many, necessitating more peaceful interaction and gradual integration and mingling.

>>53190784
>Vikings
>Full Plate

Nigga what

>>53190784
>what is macuahuitl

>>53196235
Well, that was pretty much Viking "Conquest" to begin with. Half of their exploits are being invited over to rule people.

I mean fuck, before Viking-sperg crashes into the thread, you can probably credit the unification of Russia entirely on the Vikings.

>>53196274
Capable of decapitating a horse but doing fuck-all against steel, that's what.

The Incas developed halberds, but when? They would have a pretty decent chance at defending their hilly territories given that their equipment is the closest to something comparable with euro-gear.

>>53196716
Incas weren't really even a thing back when OP's scenario would set this to.

File: 89HANHg.gif (693KB, 339x279px) Image search: [Google]

693KB, 339x279px

>>53196830
>Vikings directly influencing local cultures in their infancy
>An Inca/Viking hybrid empire spanning the whole mountains and going well outside raiding shit

>>53196989
>Sacrificing christian missionaries to Odin or Tir on your longhouse-topped stepped pyramid.

>Smoke weird shit and listen to the skalds telling the tale about how Loki stole the cloak of feathers from the great winged serpent.

>Terrorize the coasts in garishly colourful longboats with crazy animal totem heads.

>Bearded half brown people with leopard pyjamas and swords.

File: 1494402426675.jpg (755KB, 1637x1157px) Image search: [Google]

755KB, 1637x1157px

>>53184400
Crusader kings 2 after the end

File: Roraima.jpg (420KB, 1400x700px) Image search: [Google]

420KB, 1400x700px

Give me a fortress in the top of a tepui and i'm set

>>53184400
>Eventually Muslims and Asians get word of this
>300 years later crusaders duke it out with samurai in Anasazi ruins, both not knowing that the Aztec caliphate is closing on their position

>>53197357
You don't need a fortress to fight naked dudes with sticks.

>>53197456
No, but it's going to help a lot against the vikings or gauls.

>>53184400
I remember a novel where celts were the ones discovering the americas 500 years earlier because the roman empire never happened.

Lithuania was also a world power.

>>53197456
>Tarascans alrwady had metal weapons
>Assuming natives wouldn't adopt European weapons and tactics like they did with gunpowder and cavalry irl

>>53197456
tell that at my curare-tipped spears faggot

>>53197514
Why were they still completely irrelevant when they had metal weapons in an area where everyone was fighting each other with sticks and stones?
Oh that's right, metal weapons=/=steel weapons. Primitive metallurgy is as good as a stick with inlaid stones against European steel.
The bulk of their army would still be dudes hearing thongs and fighting with sticks and bows. They would loot steel weapons and capture horses but they wouldn't be able to make and sustain an army with technology they don't have and animals they don't know how to care for.

>>53197426
>Samefag
>Medieval Germans start colonizing mesoamerica
>Run into huastecs
>Huastecs are alchohlics who also liked shoving hallucinagenic cactuses up their butts and charging at Aztec naked
>Germans and huastecs become buddies
>Suddenly a bunch of colonists get recalled to fight in some HRE war
>Naked landsketchs win war while screaming something about a a snake with ten heads.
>Conquer Europe

>>53197596
Who's to say they couldn't learn that stuff once the vikings and whatever have showed them it's possible and once they've seen how much more effective chainmail and steel axes are? You could even have some Europeans teach them.

Humans adapt to circumstances.

File: 1487899527590.jpg (116KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 1024x768px

>>53190138

GURPS? GURPS

>>53197615
Of course they would adapt. I'm saying they wouldn't. It would take a good while because they would have to absorb radical cultural changes but it would happen.
Against medieval Europe the natives would've stood their ground and would've had time to adapt and we would have a completely different South America than the shithole that was kick-started by mass extermination and subsequent colonial exploration that we have today.
Their best weapons against medieval Europe would be the terrain, though.

i would love to see native americans doing scale armor with obsidian

>>53197765
Isn't obsidian practically glass? I don't think it'd be good material to strap yourself in.

>>53197817
that was i aimed for scale armor. full obsidian plate is unfeasible, obsidian lorica segmentata is too prone to shatter, but small scales of molten glass? i think they could be good armor

>>53197893
Even if it's not good it will at least look pretty neato

>>53197938
So long as it looks feasible I don't see why not.

That's all the local awesome scenery needs: some castles.

>>53197893
Also obscenely heavy

>>53184400
Could low-medieval tech Europe really colonize the Americas?
I'd figure we would more likely set up trade outposts in NA. Pre-colombian civilizations would be hard to beat on their own ground, with our not-so-overwhelming tech-advantage.
What were the proeminent empires in Mexico before the Aztec arrived?

>>53197765
It's just stupid though.
Obsidian is sharp and weak as fuck.
It makes GREAT swords, arrows, polearms etc, but it would shatter and cut you in 23 different places everytime you'd take a hit with this type of armor.

>>53190784
>full plate
>Vikings
>full plate
>middle ages

U wot

>>53189026
I mean, in some native myth? There were an enormous number of different religions/religious structures in North America.

>>53201778
It'd be basically like comparing Thor and Ukko. And America is much bigger than Scandinavia.

In some places, Thor the Thunderbird would continue to be Superman. In other places, he'd be a dick.

Although maybe Loki would be there to balance this out?

>>53201708
>>Crusaders instead of cowboys
>>Castles instead of saloons
>>Jousting duels instead of showdowns at high noon
>>Some asshole is selling armor and lances to the indians
>>Knights having to fight wendigos and deal with trickster coyotes instead of goddamn dragons all the time

It seems like there's more then just Vikings.

>>53197456
One of the reasons the Vikings left was that once they had made an enemy of the Native Americans the guerrilla warfare they employed couldn't be effectively countered. Armour means jack shit if they can attack when you aren't wearing it them slip back into the forest. They were less advanced, but that doesn't mean they were stupid when it came to fighting.

A fort would be challenging to complete with the constant attacks, but would be invaluable when actually built.

>>53202948
Then I guess that would be where this world's history turned to alternate universe: vikings actually managed to build a fort.

How did that happen?

>>53202991
Berserker Building strats.

File: 440px-skraelings.jpg (68KB, 560x334px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 560x334px

>>53184400
this could be super interesting, natives wouldnt be completly shrekt by diseases and could stand a fighting chance against europeans without gunpowder. European ships would dominate the coasts but the inland would be extremely dangerous to venture into. The supply lines would also be hard to maintain

File: wrangellrr1e.gif (76KB, 621x644px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 621x644px

>>53184400
I've always loved the idea of BCs fjord-ish coast being home to longship rowing Norse chiefdoms in uneasy alliances with the Pacific West Coast Natives

In an afternoon-worldbuild an friend and I figured out a reason for why this might be the case, but I can only remember that the whole premise was full of high-fantasy ridiculousness and not entirely suited to the alt-history realism itt
>> City state Vancouver built on top of a hell mouth (this was shortly after the hockey riot lol)
>>orc hipster hordes ruining everything
>>the wild hippies of the mountains bringing a nature-magic apocalypse
>>paladin orders based on sports teams that went on "crusade" to fight against other orders around the country

>>53205262
To be honest that doesn't sound terrible.

>>53202991
Magic.

No, really. OP post brings up dragons and other arcane bullshit, so it could be the vikings had with them rune-priests or something that could erect forts with remarkable speed.

Of course, this would imply they'd have similar settlements all across Europe, and would likely have settled down even there rather than just raiding.

>>53202991
An easier alternative would be if Vikings cooperated with the natives instead of thinking only of rape and plunder.
Basically, we missed such a glorious future only because the Vikings were murderhobos.

>>53205262
desu coast salish are an ideal fantasy setting. Northern raiders, spirit quests, inter-village intrigues

>>53207233
Sure, violence probably contributed to the failure of the settlement in Newfoundland, but the viking settlements in Greenland and North America weren't going to succeed without more settlers and more economic incentive to break the sod and accomplish something instead of trading trinkets for furs and getting in fights. The principle reason for the end of the Viking Colonization Age was that Norway was ravaged by plague in the 1350s.

With 1/3rd to 1/2 of the population dead, second sons and ambitious lowborn men didn't have to strike out for foreign shores to make their fortune, they could just take over a farm where everyone had died.

The Vikings would have persisted and succeeded if they had economic reason to, but the plague eliminated that drive.

>>53184400
might want to look at Russia and the Northern Crusade for more inspiration.

File: tlingit-armor2.jpg (66KB, 467x650px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 467x650px

>>53197456
You can do a lot with wood

>>53207233
>>53210108
Just do this.

>>53186098
Make a Viking CROATOAN.

200 years later, Aztec scouts talk of a new tribe that has been conquering terrain deeper and deeper south each year, carrying strange weapons made of shiny grey obsidian that does not chip.

>one day loki disguised him self as a starving crow and flew to thor
>thor rested mjolnir near crow as he attempted to nurse it back to health
>while thor had his back turned the envious loki set thethunder and lightning of mjolnir free
>releasing thor's greatest enemy, the thunder bird

I actually had an idea laying around for a few years, that the redheaded Si-Te-Cah were actually lost wandering Vikings that left their settlements and became desperate and brutal enough to turn towards cannibalism.
>>53184744
>I want to see how European warriors of that age stood against Aztec/Mayan warriors at their peak.
The Maya were already way passed their prime by the time the Vikings showed up in Canada.
An interesting note, the Aztecs were still literally just the Aztecs, they were still in Aztlan according to legend, and would be kicked out around 11th century.

File: 4cb303278ec3e138e12bdf151c9397e9.jpg (834KB, 575x740px) Image search: [Google]

834KB, 575x740px

I've thought of something similar before, actually. But more **Mormon** inspired and much more far-fetched. Jewish Kabbalah influencing Mesoamerican spirituality. Basically, just golems helping build Tenochtitlan, in the battlefield, or defending towns against Aztec flowery-wars.

File: _abs_angela_(spawn)_axe_belt_bikini_bikini_armor_blank_eyes_boots_c_zero_chains_earrings_female_gauntlets_loincloth_long_hair_male_midriff_orange_hair_polearm_shoulder_pads_spawn_.jpg (83KB, 624x881px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 624x881px

アメリカだとちょっと違う

>>53212431
Spawn is pretty cool and all, but I don't understand this post within the context of this thread.

>It is slightly different in America

Mmm what?

>>53212382
That'd be pretty neat but I can't see judaism get along very well with human sacrifice and shit.

>>53213506
They used to be OK with it up until that "don't give your seed to Molech"-thing.
Molech = human sacrifice rituals in anicent yidderia.

File: Sleipnir shagged a moose.gif (2MB, 420x200px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 420x200px

>>53188983

>>53187468
There's a historical precedent for this kind of thing. Some anthropologists think that it happened in Norse mythology itself.

Basically, there's a division between two sorts of Gods, the Aesir and the Vanir. The mythology has a story of a great war between them, ending with the two groups trading hostages and more or less merging.

It's believed that the Vanir were worshipped by the original inhabitants, and that the Indo-European culture that conquered them brought in the Aesir. The myth reflects that real world conflict.

Taking the Native Mythology as a base, they might refer to powerful beings coming from a dying world, who settle in North America and have various interactions with the existing mythology that establishes the nature of the merge.

Maybe Thor tames the Thunderbird, or the Great Horned Serpent becomes conflated with Jormungundr.

>>53214334
I would like an adventure of thor trying to prove himself to thunderbirds

>>53214371
What role would the players take in it, though?

>>53216262
Vassals, retainers, or other servants.

Maybe you need to transport the hammer to a Thunderbird's sacred place, and after you succeed the next day's got this bigass storm and you never really get any concrete evidence that any magic was involved but...

>>53202900
Old west is 19th century, fall of the Aztecs is 1521. The Aztecs are going to encounter Europeans long before technology develops that far.

>>53219052
I don't think Aztecs were even a thing back when this all would've happened. At the very least the vikings would've ended up heavily influencing their culture.

>>53220435
Quite a bit further south from the viking colonies, though.

>>53221241
Yeah but it's not like vikings didn't, you know, sail.

They went pretty damn far actually.

>>53214240
Okay I know that's just two mooses (meese?) going right next to one another, but jeez...

So the main storyline of the norse religion is loki breaking mjolnir, the lighting turns into or is stolen by the thunderbird, and thor has to go get it back?

File: zotz_book_3___page_3_by_kamazotz-d9i4als.jpg (2MB, 1000x1286px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1000x1286px

>>53219052
Obviously the wild west would occur much much earlier in OP's universe.
The real question is who will make first contact with the Aztecs if the rest of the world finds out five hundred years earlier? Would they survive, and if so, how much would the influence drastically change the culture?
I haven't even begun to think how the Incas would be involved.

>>53223787
How does the Coyote fit into this?

You know, you can always put together a mythology about Thor taming the Thunderbird, and the Aesir and Vanir finding a new home in a new world among new gods.

It being a mythological representation the Vikings teaching Native Americans how to work metal, and the Viking colonists cutting off contact with their Christianized homelands and going "native".

Hell, you could go on and create a whole new mythology based on Thor and the Thunderbird going off to fight dragons down South *cough* war with the Aztecs *cough*.

Also, consider for a moment that the Viking-Native-Americans create some kind of long empire all across the Americas...

If the Viking-Native-Americans keep their seafaring capabilities alive (by making use of the Great Lakes, and all the rivers that cross the USA), and they eventually reach the West Coast, they'll eventually will start to explore Hawaii, maybe even make contact with Japan and China.

>spanish show up to conquer the uncultured savage heathens
>"we have brought christ and guns!"
>"we don't know who christ is, but we got guns too! and katanas! pssst, nothing personell kid!"

>>53228320
His eyesight's gone to shit and he thinks the Thunderbird is the Road Runner

>>53226746
oh look, aspect warriors

>>53229013
I don't know whether either the vikings or the native americans were much for empires, though.

>>53229198
But that's Australia...

>>53232148
Doesn't have to be a true empire. Can also just be a bunch of tribes with similar culture and technology that have some common thread.

File: Aztec Eagle Warrior.jpg (58KB, 768x1024px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 768x1024px

>>53229464
>not going to war in your pajamas

>>53236887
>vikings in aztec pajamas

>>53238317
>naked aztec berserkers

So what would it take for Native Americans to actually leave the New World and "discover" Africa, Asia, and Europe? Or be on a similar level of technology relative to 15th century Europe/Asia?

>>53240616
>So what would it take for Native Americans to actually leave the New World and "discover" Africa, Asia, and Europe? Or be on a similar level of technology relative to 15th century Europe/Asia?

Better pack/draft/riding animals.

Steel.

Better long-range ships - whether developed locally, reverse-engineered from a lost European/Chinese/Whatever expedition, or possibly borrowed from Polynesians.

Weren't the vikings already Christianized by the time they settled in Canada?

>>53241958
Probably. Didn't stop them from pillaging and shit, did it?

>>53245305
Only on Christians. Indians ain't Christians.

>>53245305
It means that their influence on native cultures wouldn't come much from their mythology because they already mostly abandoned it by then

>>53241958
It's largely about the same time as most of Scandinavia except Sweden flipped from pagan to Christian, so the Vikings who showed up in Canada may have been either, and many could have been both.

>>53240729
Or, this being a theoretical exercise, magic.