Perception/Awareness skills

>>53184164
>Is this a problem?
Yes, because if everyone is using the skill, there's no reason to restrict it to certain classes in the game, especially when not having puts you at a much bigger disadvantage than, say, not knowing how to perform medical tasks.
>If so, how do you fix it?
Make it something that every character has access to but something that the DM deals with whenever it becomes relevant.

>>53184164
>Almost every RPG has them. A skill you roll for seeing/being aware of stuff. Some RPG's split them up a lot, others have just one, but either way they always tend to be some of the most rolled skills in the game.
Yet another reason why AD&D is the best D&D.

When the DM knows that something hidden is about, he rolls for the players to see if any of them spot it before it's too late.

>>53185661

How is that a trait of D&D, and not something you could do in any game?

Also, how does that fix the problem? It still makes Perception super important, it just obfuscates it a little bit.

>>53185689
>Also, how does that fix the problem?
Because rather than perception being a player option that's at the cost of another skill, it's instead something that the DM performs without giving the players meta-info that their characters would no way of knowing.

To put it another way, rolling perception is like flipping a coin, regardless of the result, you have an answer.

File: 1486710759779.png (236KB, 512x512px) Image search: [Google]

236KB, 512x512px

Do what Fate Core and D&D 5e both do.

Split it up into Notice/Perception (passive) and Investigate (active).

Literally nothing wrong with this.

>>53184164
Make it a stat, like Body or Mind. As for tests, I've always been a fan of a GM having knowledge of all your scores so he can do those sorts of tests without asking.

>>53184164
3.5 did it pretty well. Because it's restricted to certain classes, and split across two-three skills, it forces most classes to not take the skill. Good use for a skill-based game.

Pathfinder rolled Spot, Search and Listen into one skill and then let any class take the skill. So no everyone takes the skill.

A way to use the skill in a more freeform skill system would be to make it cost more than other skills. In the above Pathfinder example, they rolled three skills into one and each one was good to begin with... So maybe if it cost 3 skill points per rank instead of 1 it would be more of a choice and less of a skill tax.

>>53184164
Easy way to fix it: Make perception an attribute

>>53185780
Wait.

Are you sure?

Is that what investigation does in 5e?

I've been using it for gather information, and using perception to search things.

>>53187106
I was about to suggest the same.

Or do like 3.5, and split it up into a ton of skills and limit access, making nearly everyone fucking blind and deaf and oblivious in the process.

>>53184164
>Is this a problem? If so, how do you fix it?

Yes.

Perception is intended to be a meta-information prompter. The problem with skill / player controlled perception is that:

a) On failure the individual is aware they aren't aware of something and either has to act like the don't or try retrigger a search for the information.

b) It can become a chain of failure or success that isn't coherent.

c) If tied to stats it doesn't take into account wider elements that make characters unique.

The best way to fix it is a system where perception isn't a target number tied to specific character statistics, but rather the character as a whole.

Take for example a fresco. You can get a mason, an artist and a regular joe staring at it. The mason probably notices the form of the plaster, the artist the style and colouring and regular joe a nice picture on a wall. They all notice it, just differently.

>>53184164
I just use the relevant regular skill. So a person with wilderness skills is better at spotting things in the wild and a person with burglary skills is better at tracking people inside urban environments.

>>53185762
That's just called passive perception now and already exists in modern D&D.

>>53184164

My preferred method splits it into 3 parts, which are basically different time frames

Notice: Awareness of your surroundings, things happening right now, like a man hiding knife in their pocket.

Search: Ability to take time and discover things that happened recently, where the man went and the knife hidden in the pocket.

Investigate: Interpret things that happened over time, what is the knife for, who is the man, and what is he hiding.

Then, I also make it so any other skill, can also be used in place of those three if it's applicable and high enough. For example, Target number to notice the knife is a 15. The really dumb, unperceptive, fighter, has a Weapon skill of 25, I let him roll at a higher difficulty to see if he notices, because he really likes knives. That makes it so the players don't feel obligated to put so many points into perception skills just so they can participate.

>>53184164
In D&D at least it's become a bit of a lazy catch all skill that invades all tiers of the game, hence it becomes hard not to justify taking it if you can.

>Spot an ambush? Perception.

>Spot a trap ? Perception.

>Hear an invisible enemy ? Perception

>Find a secret door ? Perception

> Notice a pick pocket about to steal from you ? > Perception

Splitting it up helps, although spot, listen and search then became obnoxious to manage on the fly.

5E splitting it broadely in two with the investigate skill helps manage it a bit.

I'm personally a fan of removing it entirely and just having players physically describe what they are doing to avoid the ambush/ spot the trap and acting it out accordingly.

>>53187380

Or the GM could roll for them without them knowing.

I regulary let players make rolls without purpose, so the can't rely on their meta knowledge.

Your approach of different levels of perception is good too, sadly not universally usable.

>>53190887
So they roll stealth to notice people hiding, and roll legerdemain to find hidden objects?

What do they roll to search a room? How about to listen I'm on a conversation and eavesdrop through a door?

Rolled 5 (1d20)

>>53184164
Rolling for perception check

>>53187293
Technically there's no wrong way to use it.
That doesn't mean your DM didn't find it.