ARMS AND ARMOUR THREAD ASIAN EDITION

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>>53180678

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>>53180695

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>>53180702

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>>53180712

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>>53180720

>>53180895
that's a very lovely illustartion

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>>53180672

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>>53183125
>Some ramblings and random thoughts on Ming Chinese armies in tabletop wargaming
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/100th-post-p1.html

>>53180702
>Although I hated the shield with a passion, this one is arguably worse. This guy is wearing an outfit that is totally unrecognizable to me. If I have to make a hard guess, I will probably say Tang Dynasty, with a weird Karate black belt. He is also wielding a handgonne, also known as pole gun, without the pole.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/101st-post-p2.html

http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/08/myth-of-shan-wen-kia.html

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>>53183250

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>>53183268

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>>53183286

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>>53183351

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>>53183365

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>>53183389

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>>53183412

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>>53183449

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>>53183471

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>>53183499

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>>53183513

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>>53183559

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>>53183575

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Anyone have anything Indian/Persian/Mughal?

Also forward curving swords are cool

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>>53183659

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>>53183701

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>>53183659

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>>53183772

>>53183832
What the hell is with those sawteeth?

Requesting non-Katana Japanese weapons.

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>>53183859
Looking cool I suspect.

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>>53183859

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>>53183944
I dont think these next two are authentic at all but they certainly look cool

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>>53183989

>>53183449
quick rundown on this thing?

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>>53184510
Woven fibre armour (coconut I've heard) to protect against the plentiful (though possible somewhat shallow) lacerations of the shark tooth weaponry used.

>>53184126
This guy looks like a bad motherfucker, but he seems unsure of himself.

Don't be afraid, spike guy. You're cool.

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/r/ing magitech or steampunk guns.

This one I designed looks too futuristic I think.

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>>53185975
And here's a vaguely Asian Monk zombie, though he lacks armor.

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>>53186019
>quoted the wrong post
fug >>53186000

I don't have anything else Asian themed so here's an overdesigned Ranger.

>>53184697
He has the tense look of a man with a bent spike pointing dangerously close to his junk.

>>53183250
what the fuck kinda madman formation is that!?
WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT POLEARM!?

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>>53180742

>>53183250
thanks for links

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>>53187774
The mandarin duck formation, it has many variants.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/03/mandarin-duck-formation-p1.html
It's essentially a small unit formation to fight pirates with militias. It also seems to be useful in the narrow pathways between rice paddies and equally narrow wheelbarrow roads of old China.

http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/unique-weapon-of-ming-dynasty-lang-xian.html
>Lang Xian (狼筅, can be written as 筤筅, lit. 'Wolf brush'), sometimes translated as "wolf bamboo" and "multiple tipped bamboo spear", is arguably the MOST uniquely Chinese weapon ever devised. It is essentially an extremely long bamboo shaft mounted with an iron spike, with branches and leaves still attached. The branches are sometimes fire hardened or attached with blades and hooks and smeared with poison.
>Lang Xian is a heavy and unwieldy weapon, and deals very little damage on its own. However if used in conjunction with other weapons, it turns into a very potent force multiplier.

>>53188251
You're welcome.

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>>53188302
>>53187774
BTW, if you that's mad, check this one.

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>>53188365
Also this one

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>>53188383

Hey lads. I know this might not be the right place to ask but fuck it. You guys seem knowledgeable enough.
How would one go about making a somewhat realistic representation of armor in an RPG game?
I'm using RPG maker and using extensive use of plugins to try to create a low HP rpg where armor is very important, just like IRL.
Right now I've got some custom stats and attack formulas. Basically how it's implemented right now is that each armor has a primary armor value and more expensive armors may have a secondary value.
So basically the attacker's ATK is pitted against the defender's armor value. The atk plus a random number from 1-10 is pitted against the static defense. If the combined number ATK number is greater it goes to the second defense value if there's any. If it passes that the attack pierces the armor and deal damage. Say an ATK of 5 would deal somewhere between 3-7 damage. Of course there's also other values like armor piercing and certain weapon types being better for certain armors.
Does that sound somewhat realistic?
Again, I apologize if this is the wrong thread.

>>53188461
Oh and if the value of defense is lower the attack is deflected and the defender gets no damage.

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>>53188461
Are you the same guy who made a thread about this last year?

If not, I'll upload the same d20 pdfs I did for him.

>>53188714
No. I'm another guy looking trying to make a more old school style crpg in RPG Maker. I have the resources and the plugins, it's just that I wanted to aim for a more realistic system and I'd imagine you folk are more knowledgeable on these kinds of systems. If you'd be so kind I' appreciate it.

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>>53190848
Ok. Do you think this will be useful?

If so, I'll upload the rest.

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>>53180702
Reminder that Osprey's depictions of Ming soldiers are severely outdated and of less than stellar quality.

See Huashou Zhongguo lidai jiazhou for a more recent source(unfortunately,their Ming stuff has issues as well)
https://warosu.org/tg/thread/27560731#p27560731
https://warosu.org/tg/thread/27574792

>>53183250
>This guy is wearing an outfit that is totally unrecognizable to me.
The outfit depicted is actually shown in Jun Qi Tu Shuo,not sure about the colors though.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/01/ming-chinese-arquebusier-tactics.html

Ming soldiers used a variety of coats(some sleeveless and of varying length) as uniforms. See Joseon era Koreans for a similar practice.

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>>53191194
Song era cataphract armor was retained by officers in the south and occasionally used in the north as well.

>>53191118
I'll check out, thanks. If you want to post the rest that's fine.

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>>53191325
I checked what seem to be the best systems for you to read:

>Song of Swords

>HârnMaster

>Runequest6
>To cut short, RQ6 has the most realistic combat system without being too simulationistic and that's actually very playable.

If none of these helps, you might try to make a thread stating your need on /tg/. Some will say you shouldn't, but there'll be people which offer better help than mine, or to discuss how to optimize what you're doing.

>>53191194
>>53183250 here. The site I quoted is the very same you used as a source. I don't know what to make of this, except that it seems amusing somehow.

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>>53191473

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>>53191473
Not this guy >>53183250

>I don't know what to make of this, except that it seems amusing somehow.
More that whoever illustrated that particular Osprey volume referenced poor sources and doesn't understand how armor was worn.

The handgunner's outfit was some of sort of standard uniform for ranged contingents while conveniently leaving out the scarf and hat...

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Chink two-handed jian sword.
251 cm long. You read that right.
NOT a ceremonial or processional weapon. The design is too utilitarian for that shit.

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>>53191194
>The outfit depicted is actually shown in Jun Qi Tu Shuo,not sure about the colors though.

The devil's in the detail. This is how the clothing should look. (Note: Photo is probably a Tang Dynasty version).

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>>53191194
Many traditional (pre-Qing) Chinese clothing have a visible join line at the center of the cloth, where two pieces of cloths are stitched together. They are however NOT opened at the middle, but somewhere near the right armpit.

Can I make a request for some early crusade militant order and saracen armor?

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>>53192236
>Photo is probably a Tang Dynasty version
Surprisingly,Osprey's made the right decisions ,"Illustrations show gunners in this type of long robe,which may conceal armor,despite its seeming unsuitability for a man who had to work in proximity of lighted matches".

The late Ming Jun Qi Tu Shuo depicts crossbowmen and arquebusiers with this type of coat,though the Ospreys does not include the scarf and the felt? hat.

The Tang era round collared robe you linked has no visible frontal opening and has a side split.

>>53192367
>They are however NOT opened at the middle, but somewhere near the right armpit.
This has nothing to do with the front opening surcoats/armor that was worn over other clothing.

>>53192404
Unfortunately,that's not even close to what was worn during the Imjin War.

>>53192486

Korean side on things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLz0kP89CCc

Not sure about the Ming China's side on Things.
There is a curious lack of Rocket-cart (Rocket-arrow spam) and hand-held rocket arrows/hand cannons (Favored in the north)

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>>53192525
I always found it funniest that for all people love to rag on Japanese infantry equipment, their armor and weapons, their primary failure in the Imjin War was *naval*.

>>53192561
The Korean infantry at the time were weak and ill-disciplined, at times cowardly (Often running away when the Japanese started their Banzai Charges)

The Japanese matchlock out-ranged the Korean bow & Arrow.
(The Koreans failing to adopt such innovation despite knowing of the benefits)

Korean walls were low-walls and easily scale-able.
It is only after the Ming Chinese intervened that the Japanese got pushed back on land.

>>53192430
No, i am just saying that the Osprey "coat" that's opened at the center is shit. That's also not a surcoat worn over normal clothing. THAT IS the normal clothing.

Also, traditional Chinese clothing almost never have different colored border (i.e. different color at the neckline, cuff, center-opening etc).

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>>53192735
>No, i am just saying that the Osprey "coat" that's opened at the center is shit.
How is it shit? Osprey may have omitted some details but the fact remains that this type of clothing was used during the late Ming.

>That's also not a surcoat worn over normal clothing. THAT IS the normal clothing.
As far as I'm aware plainclothes was either the traditional cross collared garments(duan he),round collared robes(yuanling pao) or Mongolian derived clothing(terlig,yesa etc.)

The coat depicted is not the round collared robe of the Tang dynasty.

>Also, traditional Chinese clothing almost never have different colored border (i.e. different color at the neckline, cuff, center-opening etc).
I agree with the lack of different colored lining(except for armor),the Zhaojia styled front opening clothing was derived from Mongolian influences.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/06/scale-and-lamellar-armours-of-ming.html

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>>53192525>
>Korean side on things
There's actually not a lot of information on Imjin era Joseon armaments,there are woodblock prints depicting Joseon soldiers with the old
Song style cataphract armor.

>Not sure about the Ming China's side on Things.
Ming soldiers were,for the most part,northern cavalry/mounted infantry.

The Ming as well as the Later Jin used cotton,brigandine(a single surcoat or a two piece waistcoat with faulds),mail and lamellar(surcoat form) and a dazzling array of helmets with feathered plumes,tassels and flaglets.

The initial southern soldiers(infantry) wore a white headband with a cloth/paper surcoat.

>>53192561
>their primary failure in the Imjin War was *naval*.
As the Japanese never really had to deal with massed shock cavalry,they consistently under performed against Ming cavalry in field battles.

Byeokjegwan was a Japanese victory though the elite Ming force of 5,000 vs 30,000+
managed to inflict disproportionate casualties on the Japanese vanguard.

Jiksan was mainly a stalemate but the Ming were able to check the Japanese advance.

>>53192625
>It is only after the Ming Chinese intervened that the Japanese got pushed back on land.

Pretty much. Though even after the Chinese got involved, the Japanese still acquitted themselves well in several battles and sieges.

>>53192898
If by "coat" you mean "Knee-length robe with relatively narrow long sleeves and round collar", yes, those were used. But they look nothing like the Osprey picture.

The "Northern Song round collar" you posted is actually opened at the side. Notice how it has a front-back dress instead of a left-right one like the osprey.

>>53193008
>Byeokjegwan was a Japanese victory though the elite Ming force of 5,000 vs 30,000+ managed to inflict disproportionate casualties on the Japanese vanguard.

Indeed, though that initial clash was a massive bloodbath for both sides; every account of it I've read (Chinese, Korean, and Japanese all included) says that the Ming elites suffered more casualties than the Japanese did before the Japanese pulled back their advance units, had arquebusiers open up into the Ming forces, then a final rush sent them retreating.

>>53193068
All Japanese primary sources claimed a kill count of tens of thousands to several MILLIONS to "every single one of them". That is, enough to kill the entire Ming army at Korea several times over.

So jarring, that even the most conservative estimate (from the Japanese side) is till 6000 (more than the total number of Ming troops present)

>>53193058
>But they look nothing like the Osprey picture.
>The "Northern Song round collar" you posted is actually opened at the side. Notice how it has a front-back dress instead of a left-right one like the osprey.
That's my entire point,the Osprey robe isn't the round collared robe but the coat shown in >>53192430

If you read my previous replies I've already addressed this >The Tang era round collared robe you linked has no visible frontal opening and has a side split.

As the Osprey doesn't actually quote the source they used either they are using a source such as Jun Qi Tu Shuo or they happened to make a mistake that turned out to match a different source.

>>53193068
>says that the Ming elites suffered more casualties
No,we don't actually know the amount of Ming casualties because Li Rusong purposely under reported and the primary source(Jinglue Fuguo Yaobian) also states that alot of the missing men were able to regroup with the main force.

The Korean source(Seonjo Sillok) is a second hand account by a southern Ming general who never actually participated in the battle.

The Japanese sources are completely unreliable,they over inflate their enemies as well as the amount of Ming dead(Just as the Ming did to the Japanese).

It's actually far easier to calculate Japanese casualties,Nihon Senshi has a headcount of Japanese soldiers with the Tachibana suffering heavy casualties.
http://historum.com/asian-history/46431-chinese-contribution-imjin-war-overlooked-29.html

>>53193250
>No,we don't actually know the amount of Ming casualties because Li Rusong purposely under reported

That's what his superiors accused him of, anyway. No real way to know. Still, every account seems to say that the Ming ate it worse than the Japanese did.

>>53193240
>All Japanese primary sources claimed a kill count of tens of thousands to several MILLIONS to "every single one of them"

Not all of them, actually, just the ones from later on in the Edo period. The contemporary ones for Byeokjegwan actually only claim 6,000 killed. Then there's a later one with an absolutely *hilarious* figure of 20,000. Damn near two thirds of the *entire fucking Ming force* in the theater.

>>53193297
>>53193240

Most of which were probably Korean civilians and Korean Soldiers under Joint command of Ming China/Joseon Korea.

>>53193363
Actually some later battles show a much higher number of Ming troops than Korean auxiliaries. Like, the 1598 siege of Sacheon involved around 21,000-30,000 Chinese troops and only about 2,200 Koreans.

>>53193250
>That's my entire point,the Osprey robe isn't the round collared robe but the coat shown in >>53192430

I think I get your point now, although I still maintain that Osprey robe look nothing like it is supposed to be.

>>53193403
That is some extreme fabrication right there.

>>53193297
>Not all of them, actually, just the ones from later on in the Edo period.

As far as I am aware, the most conservative 6000 kill count come from 19~20th century history books, not contemporary accounts.

>>53192625
>The Japanese matchlock out-ranged the Korean bow & Arrow.
While the statement is generally true, it is not "Japanese" arquebus that outrange "Korean bow". It is "arquebus outrange bow". Period.

Korean pyeonjeon still outrange arquebus though.

>>53193585
The Japanese arquebus is more accurate, has longer range, greater penetrative capabilities and reloads faster (Apparently), according to Japanese and Korean records.

>Korean pyeonjeon still outrange arquebus though.
But can it pierce Japanese armor and inflict a deadly/crippling blow at that range?

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>>53193297
>Still, every account seems to say that the Ming ate it worse than the Japanese did.
Not if we take the Nihon Senshi at face value.

I have to dig harder in the Jinglue Fuguo Yaobian to see if the Ming civilian overseers managed to figure out the true number of casualties.

>>53193363
The Koreans only had a minor presence in Byeokjegwan,Ko Onbaek was a Korean officer who didn't bring any troops.

It was mainly Li Rusong's retinue of 3,000 and 2,000 Ming reinforcements.

>>53193465
>I think I get your point now, although I still maintain that Osprey robe look nothing like it is supposed to be.
Yea,I was only trying to find a plausible explanation for why that Osprey plate depicted a front opening coat.

>>53193585
>>53193658

This is also compounded by the fact the Japanese could utilise Basic shield formations to block the Korean arrows

>>53193465
>>53193677

Different Chinese dialect/regional groups spot different clothing.
Chinese fashion/clothing is never uniform across the board.

Either that or they could be ethnic minority troops.

>>53193721
>Different Chinese dialect/regional groups spot different clothing.
Keep in mind clothing such as Zhaojia surcoats and the short round collared robe were universal.

>Either that or they could be ethnic minority troops.
Even the southwestern native contingents wore similar armors to their Chinese neighbors.

See Zhaojia styled clothing/armor in Wokou Tujuan and Kangwo Tujuan(Lang/Tu Bing).

>>53193658
>But can it pierce Japanese armor and inflict a deadly/crippling blow at that range?

Doesn't need to. Japanese armor has a massive vulnerability at the waist.

>>53193677
>I have to dig harder in the Jinglue Fuguo Yaobian to see if the Ming civilian overseers managed to figure out the true number of casualties.

They were likely pretty similar in the end. Though for the Ming they were somewhat bad because that was literally a force almost entirely composed of elite troops they *really didn't need to be losing* at that time.

>>53193008
>Jiksan was mainly a stalemate but the Ming were able to check the Japanese advance.

Jiksan's interesting. All the accounts I've read of it tend to boil down to one of two different narratives, the main difference being whether or not the final Japanese advance reached contact and engaged the Ming before they retreated.

>>53193472
30,000 is the figure Ming chronicles give at least.

Sacheon was pretty hilarious. Get so close to taking the Japanese position, then some inbred goes and touches off a powder explosion in the rear area of the army. Proceed to get fucking slaughtered in the confusion that followed.

>>53193833
>Though for the Ming they were somewhat bad because that was literally a force almost entirely composed of elite troops they *really didn't need to be losing* at that time.
To be fair,Li Rusong probably though the Japanese were in full retreat or he was simply overconfident.

Regardless,the battle shows that the Ming had land forces to be reckoned with and the Japanese numerical superiority only counted for so much.

>>53193878
>All the accounts I've read
Do you have a list of sources?

There isn't actually a primary account from the Ming side as the Ming Shi was compiled during the Qing dynasty.

The Korean source is again,a second hand source where the Ming generals informed the Korean court.

I can't read Japanese but I would assume they would forge a narrative where they were the victors.

>>53194005
Yeah, it's mainly those secondhand sources unfortunately. Still very interesting reads.

>>53194005
>Regardless,the battle shows that the Ming had land forces to be reckoned with and the Japanese numerical superiority only counted for so much.

I just always found it telling that no matter the sources, whether from Li himself, secondhand Korean stuff, or the Japanese inflationary accounts, just about all of them claim higher losses on the Chinese side. Even the count of the Nihon Senshi is only a relatively surefire account of half the equation and still might come up shorter than the true Ming figure.

You'd think, at the very least, if Li had been deliberately underreporting figures he'd at least claim more losses to the enemy to make himself look better. But no, he claimed nearly 100 more deaths on his own side for...some reason.

>>53193658
>But can it pierce Japanese armor and inflict a deadly/crippling blow at that range?
No, pyeonjeon is a harrass/ambush/suppression weapon, although stil deadly if it hits exposed part.

Its main advantages are its very long range, nearly invisible arrows (too small and too fast ), quietness, and enemy can’t pick up the arrow and shoot it back.

>>53194005
>To be fair,Li Rusong probably though the Japanese were in full retreat or he was simply overconfident.
That wasn’t even Li’s fault. He was trying to bail his subordinate Cha Da Shou out.

>>53194096
>just about all of them claim higher losses on the Chinese side.
See the original historum post I've linked.
>For the casualties on Japanese side, most Chinese and Korean accounts reported 160~600 casualties. Notes: Ming side actually recorded "heads taken", so it did not include those they killed but did not have enough time to cut off the head.

>Even the count of the Nihon Senshi is only a relatively surefire account of half the equation and still might come up shorter than the true Ming figure.
Tachibana Muneshige was the only one who didn't participate in other battles,if we include the Kikkawa,Kobayakawa and Kuroda clans that number will be inevitably higher.

Also,the problem with Japanese troop counts(not just the Imjin) is they lump their logistic/laborers/sailors with their soldiers obfuscating the amount of military men sent to Korea.

As explained above,Japanese sources are useless in determining Ming casualties.

I Mongol armour just shit or did it even exist at all?
I guess it would just be Chinese...

>>53194277
"Heads taken" was common to all sides, though.

>>53194305
For the Japanese it was ears and body parts

>>53194351
True, though IIRC that was mostly after the fact, because an ear makes a more convenient keepsake than a whole head.

>>53194293
Mongols adopted the same type of armors as their sedentary foes,they used the Song cataphract style of armor extensively in their initial campaigns.

Thanks to the Yuan,they popularized brigandine,mail and Central Asian/Tibetan forms of lamellar(surcoat).

Ming period Mongols and bartered their horses for Ming armaments.

>>53194305
>"Heads taken" was common to all sides, though.
There's a massive difference between hundreds of heads and Japanese estimates that range in the tens of thousands.

Same reason why Jinglue Fuguo Yaobian's claims of tens of thousands of Japanese dead during the aftermath of the Siege of Pyongyang is ludicrous. All we know is that from their own records Konishi lost 2/3 of his men from his occupation of Pyongyang(whether by starvation,battle wounds,disease etc.) and the Hanseong roll call.

Unless you can produce a Japanese source that states x amount of Ming heads,I'm afraid I can't take their sources seriously.

>>53194351
>For the Japanese it was ears and body parts
There are even accounts of Korean peasantry surviving with chopped off noses/ears,so clearly even this method was unreliable.

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Since this is an arms thread, obligatory picture of pyeonjeon

>>53194386
>There's a massive difference between hundreds of heads and Japanese estimates that range in the tens of thousands.

Yeah, but the point is still that the practice of "keeping score" by mainly just counting the guys you had time to nab a head or an ear off of wasn't unique to the Ming. They all tended to do that.

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>>53194399
That's pretty cool stuff.

>>53194386
There's a massive difference between hundreds of heads and Japanese estimates that range in the tens of thousands.

There are actually japanese sources that claim shits like "fifty thousand heads taken" during that battle though. Not that it makes their records any more reliable.

>>53194406
>They all tended to do that.
Agreed,but the problem with this method is it doesn't take into account all the war dead(whether by drowning,incineration) and the Ming were in a position where they had to flee the battlefield during Byeokjegwan.

Pre-modern casualty counts are highly inflated and you need to combine different sources to arrive at a sound conclusion.

>>53194406
It is more of the Japanese 'inflating' the Battlefield casualty numbers to show off their bravado and assert 'dominance' over their 'inferior' neighbours.

Most Historians (Being biased/blind as fuck) of all nationalities are still doing it till this day to
make other countries look bad (State Propaganda) to legitimatise their rule or foreign intervention.

>>53194452
>There are actually japanese sources that claim shits like "fifty thousand heads taken" during that battle though. Not that it makes their records any more reliable.
Well,it's incredibly blatant when the Ming/Japanese sources start listing off numbers that exceed the number of men that participated.

The Ming/Joseon forces also had a tendency to conscript prisoners of war,did the Japanese ever consider using Ming/Joseon soldiers as fodder?

>>53194480
>The Ming/Joseon forces also had a tendency to conscript prisoners of war,did the Japanese ever consider using Ming/Joseon soldiers as fodder?

Not that I know of, though when the Japanese forces left their last few castles in Korea they took with them several thousand Koreans and Chinese as slave laborers.

>>53194480
Yes, if I remember right. There's accounts of Ming troops being killed by arrows, and the Ming army suspected that some Koreans were working for the Japanese. There's also reports of Chinese troops on Japanese sides.

>>53194515
>There's also reports of Chinese troops on Japanese sides.
Do you have a source for this? I'm curious because I've never seen this claim made before.

Sengoku clans such as the Shimazu,had Ming clerks or doctors but I've never heard of Ming defectors.

>>53194515
>There's accounts of Ming troops being killed by arrows

Japanese didn't bring any archers to the Imjin War?

>>53194515
>>53194556

There were malnourished Korean separatists, Korean bandits and Korean Traitors roaming the devastated countryside.

A good number of them worked in conjunction with the Japanese for the sake of booty, food/water and rape.

>>53194556
They probably did, but Japanese arrow is sufficiently different from Korean arrow that one can immediately spot the difference.

>>53194458
It gets better from here. The Japanese even fabricated entire battle during the Imjin war, which they "won" by defeating Chinese general that was either non-existent or not yet arrived at Korea, often at a non-existing place in Korea.

For example, it is said that Tachibana Muneshige (him again) defeated a 60,000 Ming-Korean relieve force, led by Chinese general Lin Hu 琳虎, subordinate of Liu Ting 劉鋌, with only 4000 troops during the second siege of Jinju (1593), thus helping the rest of the Japanese army to capture that city.

Unfortunately, there's no such person named 琳虎 in the Chinese (or Korean, for that matter) army. And there were no Chinese/Korean relieve force either.

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>>53191907
I would like to refer you to the Da Dao

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>>53194885
That is not a Dadao
It is an Oxtail

>>53194843
Are there any Japanese accounts of Ming armaments?

I've distinctly remember a English source(Swope?) that quoted Mori/Kuroda clans records that claimed the Ming had bulletproof armors.

>>53194555
My bad,not Ming troops, but Chinese troops. They were generally Japanese pirate captives that settled at Japan and get drafted, and worked mostly as translators.

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>>53191907
>The design is too utilitarian for that shit.

I wouldn't assume it to be a fighting piece based on that alone, size alone can be bling enough at times. Here's a plain European bearing sword (ie ceremonial) for comparison.

>>53194885
That's an oversized niuweidao, to train a specific way of moving from what little I've heard.

>>53194919
>That's an oversized niuweidao, to train a specific way of moving from what little I've heard.
yeah, a lot of weapon using martial arts will train with a heavier weapon than they actually use

>>53194919
See Zhaimadao

The Chinese have a stronger preference for polearms than longer blades tho

>>53193984
Sacheon ain't shit compared to the complete and utter allied force fail that was Chilcheollyang.

>fire Admiral Yi and court-martial him for political reasons
>another guy named Won Gyun is the new chief of the fleet
>oh hey there's about a thousand Japanese ships moving through here
>pfft the fucking Japs don't know how to fight at sea, this will be glorious
>but sir we only have a little less than 200 ships
>nigger these are fucking Japs, it'll be fine
Full retard charge.jpg
>several ships in the fleet see the utter shitstorm that's about to hit them and abandon the attack
>clash with enemy
>it goes exactly as you'd expect
>Koreans slaughtered by the dozens
MY RORD, A GRORIOUS VICTOLY WIRR SOON BE YOULS.ogg
>over 150 panokseons sunk
>the admiral's ship manages to escape the battle
>land at a nearby island
>well that was bullshit but at least we're still--
>the island is occupied by a Japanese garrison
>Won Gyun gets his fucking head cut off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glW0C3VkGMI
>Joseon goes CRAWLING back to Admiral Yi to take back control of the fleets so they don't get anally violated like this again

>>53194885
That's a Baguadao, which is basically an oversized oxtail saber. It is used for strength training only though.

>>53194917
>They were generally Japanese pirate captives that settled at Japan and get drafted, and worked mostly as translators.
That makes sense,interesting how individuals such as Guo Guoan are portrayed as either furthering or hindering the Shimazu's cause.

Now I'm wondering if the ex-Song marines turned slaves from the second Mongol invasion of Japan left behind any Japanese descendants.

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>>53194919
>>53194919
>I wouldn't assume it to be a fighting piece based on that alone, size alone can be bling enough at times. Here's a plain European bearing sword (ie ceremonial) for comparison.

That may be the case with the Europeans, but Chinese loved to adorn their show piece with dragon head tunkou and other blings.

For example,in this picture is an oversized display sword not intended for real combat.

>>53194928
Fun fact, the 13 ships that escaped Chilcheollyang intact were the ships that Admiral Yi used in his miracle victory at Myeongnyang.

>>53194973
If there were stranded Chinese from the Mongol invasion, they probably had long being assimilated by the time of Imjin War.

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>>53194973
Time to get the Japanese hooked on genetic genealogy then. You could also find signs of left behind female camp followers (voluntary or not) that way.

>>53195097
They are most likely Chinese (Fujian) /Korean/Ryukyu Wokou/mercenaries

>>53194928
WHERE'S THE MOVIE, HOLLYWOOD!?
WHERE'S THE GODDAMN MOVIE!?

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Korean turtle ship

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>>53195134
There's a K-drama about the Imjin War that included Chilcheollyang, IIRC.

>>53195134
See: >>53192525

Hollywood would never produce a pro- East Asian Movie nor would it God forbid, make an East Asian Sex icon.

Part of it is becuz they want to market their movies towards a White-majority Audience (Which is part of the reason they are failing) and any portrayal of Actual East Asian Competence and creativity would cripple the narrative so-to-speak.

>>53195171
>Hollywood would never produce a pro- East Asian Movie

You'd be surprised; there's a lot of love for China in some recent movies because Hollywood can't resist that massive Chinese box office.

>>53195108
>Time to get the Japanese hooked on genetic genealogy then.
I don't think it's feasible to trace any sort of Chinese heritage in modern day Japanese,the autosomal component would be heavily diluted and Chinese uniparentals are shared with prehistoric migrations to Korea/Japan.

>>53195150
>There's a K-drama about the Imjin War
Too bad the South Koreans refused to let the Japanese film portions of the Imjin War for their indigenous productions.

I for one,would have love to seen how the Japanese depicted their Ming and Joseon foes.

>>53195171
>Hollywood would never produce a pro- East Asian Movie nor would it God forbid, make an East Asian Sex icon.
The Imjin War is far too niche for a Hollywood title,there is plenty of Imjin era films/dramas made in Korea. Even the Imjin War isn't well known in mainland China.

Whether these productions are historically accurate is a question best left for another day.

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>>53195078
Europeans were quite fond of blinging up their show pieces too, but that didn't mean none of them were plain. It'd seem odd for anyone to really go for the absolutes here. As such I'd be very cautious about letting a lack of decoration alone label somethign a fighting weapon, just as I wouldn't rule out that a weapon is for fighting just because there's a decent amount of gold on it, assuming it's otherwise sane.

On the other hand, I'm not saying that large Chinese twohander is definitely a ceremonial piece either. While huge, it may not be too outlandish to use, though it may functionally be more of a polearm in a drag or so.

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In case anyone ever bring out a "Shaolin monk vs ?????" thread again, show them this photo.

Yes. Those are authentic Shaolin warrior monks.

>>53195204
>The Imjin War is far too niche for a Hollywood title
It's also a political minefield.

Never underestimate Korean butthurt.

>>53195177
I have not seen a movie that came out from America with a Romantic East Asian leads.

Only in American movies, do all the Old Asian stereotypes come out (Dick envious/nerd/'me rove u rong time/asexual/robots/insects/soulless 'gooks').

The last Pro-East Asian movie I have seen is Letters of Iwo Jima.
Guess how long has that been?

>>53195218
>It's also a political minefield.
shame that Shogun 2 never received an Imjin expansion for that very reason.

>Never underestimate Korean butthurt.
You can already see that in their historical dramas/films.

>>53195216
Go read up the history of 'Letai'

>>53195204
Only China/Korea/Japan will fund it.

>>53195234
Korean/Japanese revisionism is cancer.

>>53195223
Check out Transformers: Age of Extinction.

>>53195207
Okay, points taken.

>>53195234
>You can already see that in their historical dramas/films.

Yeah, the K-drama I saw had the Japanese as pretty mustache-twirly.

I also recall an amusing scene where some guys are testing weapons in front of a royal. They bring up an arquebus and demonstrate it, but then as a counterpoint they have a guy with a Korean bow shoot like 10 arrows in rapid succession.

>>53195251
That one only had one Chinese actress and no Chinese actor.
The Chinese actress act out the stereotypical 'dragon lady'/Elektra Bitch.

Coincidentally, it is one of the most Universally-hated movie I have ever seen.

>>53195284
It's not the romance bit there, it's that they portray China *very* positively. And also do a ton of Chinese product placement to boot.

>>53195276
dunno how the japs would have portrayed themselves though.
hard to be the good guys when you are doing a war of territorial expansion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8TlmiTwb8A

An upcoming Chinese movie about Qi Jiguang's early campaign against the Japanese pirates.

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>>53195302
Yeah, I wouldn't expect it to be any different unless, like, the guy who did the movie had an attitude like the guy who created GATE had.

>>53195301
The thing is you are talking about Asian Movie (China/Korea vs Japan) with an all-Asian cast and zero Whites/Blacks historical figures.

You and I both know Hollywood will never bankroll that.

>>53195344
I could see it possibly happen if China's influence over them grows enough, but it remains to be seen if that'll pan out.

>>53195358
Then it would be China producing it, not Hollywood

Think:
If China can produce Big budget Blockbusters like Red Cliffs, Hero, House of Flying Daggers & Warlords etc., why do they even need Hollywood?

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>>53195385
>why do they even need Hollywood?

Soft power, trying to export their culture overseas and improve their overall image.

>>53195389
Hollywood =/= the American market

>>53195399
It's the gateway to the American mainstream market, so it's close enough really.

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Chinese martial arts version of the Klingon Bat'leth.

>>53194919
>I wouldn't assume it to be a fighting piece based on that alone, size alone can be bling enough at times. Here's a plain European bearing sword (ie ceremonial) for comparison.

Those were quite heavy an often made out of cast iron.
They used them by having several people carry it out on the open and have a really big guy pretend he's going to wield it at enemy peasants.

Purely for intimidation.

>>53195405
But would Americans watch a movie about Chinks/Gooks fighting Nips with zero whites/blacks?

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>>53195441
Wushu weapons are hilarious stuff.

>>53195463
Indeed. And that one isn't the most insane.

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>>53195460
Probably not right now, but given enough exposure...eh, maybe.

Also funny, one of China's requirements for its box office market besides showing China in a positive light is that you cannot show the United States or its military in a positive light, and you see THIS effect in Age of Extinction too.

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>>53195463
Quite so, yes.

>>53195443
Sure it'd be cast and not wrought iron? Casting it seems more like a 19th century thing.

>>53195216
Well they trained their Gun Kata well.

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Samurai handheld matchlock cannon.

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>>53195606

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Iban blowpipe-spear (Borneo counts as Asia right?)

>>53195443
>>53195503

Real Martial Arts from the North
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a88A_1PSZ1s

>>53195828
Wew, if those were masters I don't wanna to imagine how bad the average joe was, half those weapons seemed useless (the big knifes) or they didn't even now how to use them (the polearms).

>>53196237
You mean it ain't a mark of quality when one of your two by far most successful fighters, not in terms of technical skill but actual results, is a cripple who has to keep his balance sitting on the bicycle he's been trapped to?

>>53193297
>Still, every account seems to say that the Ming ate it worse than the Japanese did.
Can't believe I missed this one. The Ming ate it worse in the sense that they suffered a setback, and the battle served little purpose other than to let them throw away their valuable troops pointlessly. But at least Li Ru Song did bail out his subordinate (although he lost another close subordinate in the process).

But in term of casualty, the highest Chinese casualty count on contemporary Ming/Korean records was 1500 (out of 5000), and that's from a Southern Chinese general that had a persona feud with Li Rusong (and thus spare no bullet to smear him). But let's consider this casualty figure true.

For the Japanese casualties, most Japanese records claimed something like 1~200. But if we extrapolate from Nihon Senshi (see Historum link):

2068 casualties from Tachibana Muneshige's troops
573 casualties from Tsukushi Hirokado's troops

This only account for TWO Japanese general. Let's be very generous and assume that other generals suffered zero casualty, and only HALF of the Japanese casualty was the direct result of Battle of Byeokjegwan.

So that put us at 1500 Chinese death vs 1320 Japanese death. Not bad at all for the Ming considering that they were outnumbered almost eight to one.

>>53196432
I imagine the low initial numbers are in part a result of neither side really counting their common troops in the first counts. Just elite forces and officers, or samurai for the Japanese side.

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>>53196432
Masters are those that fought in the Letai and won.

>>53194973
Speaking of Chinese aiding the Japanese during the war, there's also the Siege of Namwon in 1597. Namwon gets surrounded by large Japanese army, Ming and Korean defenders are basically fucked. Realizing this, a Ming general negotiates with the Japanese for safe passage out of the area. This agreement is honored...and so is the part of the agreement where said Ming general leaves the fortress doors open for the Japanese. ...And the agreement was only for the Ming contingent, so all the Korean defenders at Namwon are promptly massacred.

>>53196237
But those WERE the average Joe

>>53196721
Dunno where did you read that , but Annal of Seonjo records that the Ming general killed his way out of the siege with only his closest guards accompanying him.

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When talking about the sengoku jidai, people only ever really break it down to only the samurai, and the ninja. No one seems to talk about the sohei, warrior monks.

These bastards were hardcore, they were the historic political dissidents/anarchist/radicals/revolutionaries of the era. Whilst religious in nature, they were much more a religious philosophical movement, mixed in with a lot of political ideology. Their chief trait was their complete disdain for the samurai and daimyo which actually made them extremely significant to the history of the era, not that anyone really factors.

The most notable were the Ikko Ikki. They formed a state without a daimyo his samurai - a truly revolutionary concept at the time. Akin to a revolutionary France in 1795 - and this made all the daimyos very wary. Peasants, monks and even groups of samurai fought under the Ikki flag and about 100 years, an absolutely astounding feat if you know this period. It took Nobunaga 11 years and the destruction of the Mori fleet to finally have them surrender, and afterwards he could only really annex them.

Most of the warrior monks were not similar to the Ikko Ikki though, they were more a multitude of decentralised fortified communities scattered all throughout Japan. Some ranged from several hundred (e.g. 300), to several thousand (e.g. 20,000), to an entire state (the Ikki). Estimates are wildly varying, but there were probably thousands of them around, following very different sects.

With they had an absolute disdain for warlords, they were still political entities for purposes of survival. Maintaining their own independence, they would often ally themselves with a certain clan against others for benefits and gains. Whilst there are no known records of sohei fighting with one another, I think such instances did occur. All these guys wanted were their own slice of freedom, and they were willing to do whatever it takes to attain.

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please use this.

This is the Filipino Kampilan sword. it has a very interesting pommel.

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>>53197459
these are it's various hilt designs. pretend as if mystical powers are produced from the "mouth"

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>>53197420

Unlike the popular depictions, warrior monks were not strictly limited to wearing robes and using naginata - they wore whatever the hell they could get their hands on. As many warrior monk communities lacked the sustainable supply of metal and skilled fighters - unarmored and naginata (a very easy weapon to learn how to use) were the norm.

There are many instances where warrior monks had access to really good armour, and even firearms. It all really depends on the specific community, how strong they were, and how rich their lands were.

Only the Ikko Ikki could actually field 'warrior monk armies', most others warrior monks only fielded contingents accompanying larger daimyo armies. Even within these armies, they would vary in arms and armour. Ikki armies, like everyone elses, would be made up mostly of ashigeru (because of economic reasons), with some samurai (because Ikki were weird like that) and some sohei.

Wooden, leather, steel armour. Helmets or no helmets. Limb armour, or commando. Sword, spear, naginata or club. It all depended on the individual, and the communtiy.

>tl;dr warrior monks were badass mofos
> their arms and armour were super diverse
> this reflected their nature, both politically and religiously

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>>53197420
>>53197483
Most of the sohei stuff has been shown to be fabrications and propaganda, see "The Teeth and Claws of the Buddha" by Adolphson.

The reality of the matter is that in the Heian era we see the monasteries as powerful landowners, just like the powerful noble houses. And just like the noblemen, they had vassals overseeing these holdings, samurai. The rulers of the monasteries would be noblemen by birth, and still played all the usual power games. When that meant violence, they simply armed and equipped themselves and their followers (burly lads form the lower ranking manual labour monks, and the samurai overseers form their holdings), and fought just like any secular noble and his followers.

The image of the robed warrior is a later construction, emerging as simple artistic shorthand to show which of the armoured figures in an illustration are the monks. It's about as historically accurate as the ninja all in black (and, of course, Osprey has books on them both..) The accompanying texts would tend to be propaganda aimed at the monasteries, with the monks not being called sohei, but akusô, "evil monks".

Quite a shame really, I do like the look.

The ikko-ikki was mostly commoners and low ranking warriors, not monks. They were inspired by the teachings of Shinran though, making them a competitor of the old monasteries, resulting in them being attacked by the monasterial forces at times. The Nichiren sect likewise got attacked by Enryakuji forces in 1536.

With the (relative) power of the monasteries being at their peak around the Heian period or so, and then largely waning form there, their impact on the sengoku jidai was rather limited. Still, they were powerful enough to be of note, and as such got crushed during Japan's unification.

>Wooden, leather, steel armour.

We're quite far past wood being used for anything but fastening pegs and helmet decorations here.

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>>53195250
>Korean/Japanese revisionism is cancer.
Korean revisionism is a relatively recent phenomenon,historical Koreans/Vietnamese were Sinophiles that viewed themselves as more Chinese than the Chinese.

On the other hand,Japanese revisionism is rooted from their superiority complex,the irony being Mimana/Jingu's invasions are the complete opposite of what happened during the original expansion of Japonic from the central/southern portions of the Korean peninsula.

>>53196645
The more artwork I've seen depicting the Ming,the more I've convinced the authors don't really know what they are depicting.

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>>53183873

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Rain cover. Not sure about how it's mounted, wrong way around maybe?

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Bows, sadly, don't tend to photograph very well.

>>53196917
Hm, interesting. Not too surprising there's conflicting accounts; seems to be a real running theme of this war.

Yi Bok-nam, the Korean general who was at Namwon, also rode out to meet the Japanese, but neither he nor his guard survived.

>>53183859
It makes a jagged wound that is more difficult to stitch.