/STG/ - Star Trek General

>>53149030
Did the Founders surrender territory in the Gamma Quadrant at the end of the war? Or were they just booted from the Alpha Quadrant?

>>53149796
According to STO, the Dominion just left the Alpha Quadrant, and the Alpha Quadrant powers stayed on their side for the most part. According to the novels, the Bajorans rebuilt New Bajor I think, and the Feds are sending regular scouting missions through the Wormhole.

>>53149796
Not sure if it counts, but the Star Trek map-book shows the Dominion borders as having been reduced by the end of the war.

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Was the creation of the minefield around the wormhole justified?

>>53150006
Of course it was. Why wouldn't it have been?

>>53149955
It took two years from the time the wormhole opened for the Vorta and Jem'Hadar to first show up, so that's probably the nominal Dominion borders but their neighbors still know to just let them do whatever.

>>53150006
Given that the Dominion were just shitting ships through it, yeah I'd say so.

But you know who were actually right? The Obsidian Order when they tried to destroy the wormhole in the first place. And, hell, that was Starfleet plan too when shit got real, only it didn't go so well for them.

>>53149955
Well either A) the people making the books made a mistake.B) some of the conquered people realised the Dominion isn't as powereful as previously thought and started to revolt against Dominion rule and they lost control of those areas. or C) It's due to Odos influense to the Founders and the areas where given independence voluntarily. Or all three possibilities at the same time

>>53150104

>The Obsidian Order when they tried to destroy the wormhole in the first place.

They did? I only remember O'Brien nearly shutting it down for good when that whole hate ghost thing happened.

>>53150230
The episode with the comet and the 3 cardassian scientists, one of whom wanted to get plowed by O'Brien.

>>53150104
The Romulans took a crack at it too.

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Best BB bump.

>>53151255
Pretty much everyone but the Bajorans themselves have had a crack at it.

Why isnt there any good star trek vidya nowadays? I'd kill for a 4x set in the trek universe.


Also do you think the dominion will have huge unrest after losing the war? Losing a thousand ships to the wormhole you cant just handwave away when those ships could've been used in the Gamma quadrant after the war.

>>53153808
>Also do you think the dominion will have huge unrest after losing the war?

I'm willing to bet almost certainly, especially if the Federation shows up going all Fedaboo and offering sanctuary to anyone who wants to flee. They wouldn't be willing to seize and hold territory from the Dominion, but I'd bet you a lot that they'd be willing to send the big Explorers into Dominion space to safeguard refugee convoys and evacuate those with no means to leave themselves.

A Nebula, Excelsior and a Miranda showing up is how the Federation says "we're done ducking around with you."

>>53153808
>>53153808
>I'd kill for a 4x set in the trek universe.

Well, there's Birth of the Federation, which I'm fairly sure you can get as abandonware. It's an older game but it basically captures the feel of TNG quite well. I think it was remade as a mod for Civ 4, as well.

Then there's the 2 current front runner mods:

Star Trek: New Horizons is a mod for Stellaris that allows you to play as nearly any race from the show, in correct starting position, with ship models that upgrade to roughly correspond with the different eras

Star Trek: Armada III is a mod for Sins of a Solar Empire that allows you to play as the Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Borg. It takes full advantage of SoaSE's random event feature to throw rogue Borg cubes, Doomsday machines, species 8472 and fucking Whale Probes at you until you crumble.

All 3 are pretty good.

>>53153808
>Why isnt there any good star trek vidya nowadays?

Because the only official Star Trek that's been around in the past decade is 3 nuTrek films and the as yet still unrealised threat of a new series.
And the licence in general is fucking expensive, and basically needs some sort of current zeitgeist to actually be able to move enough copies to justify development and licence costs.
The 50th anniversary didn't really do shit to change that.

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>>53153808
>Why isnt there any good star trek vidya nowadays?
If you're a video game company, why bother spending money on the Star Trek license when you could just make a "Star Trek in all but name" game for much cheaper, spend the licensing fees on marketing, and if it's a success you have a new IP that you can make money on at-will?

>>53154011
Because you get a franchise and fanbase >>>>>>implying that collapses so quickly that by the time numero 4 comes around the dev team consists of precisely two (2) slavs

>>53153417
Even the Bajorans. The Pagh Wraith cults are all about fucking up the Celestial temple.

>>53150006
I could imagine the Vedek assembly throwing a shit-fit over it. And anybody with trading interests in the Gamma Quadrant would protest, but I'd imagine most people, including the Bajorans, would be much happier with the Dominion permanently blocked from entering the alpha quadrant.

>>53153861
If I were the Dominion, I'd be wore worried about Klingon raiding parties coming to get their fill of combat. The klingons have run out of neighbours they can afford war with. Popping through the wormhole for some cathartic, guilt free war against a worthy adversary is basically their ideal long weekend.

>>53155465
I'm sure the Feds wouldn't take kindly to the Klingons shitting all over their lovely treaty.

>>53155640
>Martok personally takes a fleet through once every few weeks and blows up a shipyard or breeding facility
>The Great Jello Puddin Pop is wibblin and wobblin in anger but does nothing because Odo distracts them with memories of the time he became Kira's underwear for a day

>>53155690
nigger what

>>53149030
Am I the only one who can't get over the dumbass techobabble?
Don't get me wrong I love star trek and have see nearly every episode, but jesus christ the technobabble, its not even that it's made up stuff, it's also that they aren't consistent with it.
And the fuck is with pointing different colored lights at wiring do? Live every time someone is working on a piece of equipment they just point a light at it. They use the stuff like it's all a sonic screwdriver but the sonic screwdriver has a telepathic interface, so how in the fuck can the "hyper spanner" seem to fix everything just by blinking a light.

>>53156880
I don't really like it either, especially when they use it to pad out an episode.

I'm not raging and sperging though.

>>53156984
Well, I wasn't sperging about it until I tried to watch TNG again and couldn't get through the first half.
It was an episode I hadn't seen for about 5 years and just in comparison, I'm able to re-watch the west wing and thoroughly enjoy it about once a year.

>>53157018
>Well, I wasn't sperging about it until

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that you were. The way you phrased it it came off as a legit criticism of how the show operated rather than some hardcore Comic Book Guy thing.

>>53153949
You forgot star trek legacy

>>53153949
Armada III borg are made to be a boss race that multiple players team up against. They are BROKEN as FUCK.

>>53159241
No. No one forgot that game. Ever. He was listing games that were, at worst, decent. Not ones that were ABOMINABLE.

>>53159452
what is wrong with legacy?

>>53159763
I personally don't find it *horrible*, but the mostly 2D maps, the phoned-in voice acting, the point system, and the balance of ships are all marks against it.

>>53159777
well, it's an old console game with limited budget, there wasn't much they could've done, but i'd love to see a similar game built with better mechanics

#notallcrystallineentities

>>53159965

>No faction of friendly crystalline entities

What was the Klingon counterpart to Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar/Section 31?

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>>53159965
[screeches with diversity]

>>53160082

Remember when Kor told Kirk everyone in the Empire was under surveillance, even planetary governors?

I'd assume the ones doing the surveillance. Funny how we never hear anything about them.

>>53160082

The non-canon name is Imperial Intelligence.

>>53160177

And the canon name is Klingon Intelligence stupid, I know.

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_Intelligence

>>53160196

Is Klingon Intelligence a name, or a description?

>>53160209

You tell me?

>BASHIR: So you're saying he's a spy?
>ODO: The younger Darvin's mission was to derail Federation colonisation efforts by poisoning a shipment of grain which was, which is being stored aboard the station. However, eighteen hours from now, James Kirk will expose him and he will be arrested.
>WORF: That arrest will end his career. Klingon Intelligence will turn their back on him and he will become an outcast.
>ODO: From what we've been able to piece together, he spent the next hundred years eking out a meager living posing as a human merchant. Then in a final indignity, he was trapped in Cardassian space by the Klingon invasion.

>http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/503.htm

Honestly? It could be either. Personally, I'd rather that it was an informal name for the Klingon Empire's intelligence and espionage service... but this is Trek we're talking about, so my expectations are not exactly high. This is the franchise that gave us warp 10 salamanders, after all. And no, that wasn't declared non-canon. That's a myth until proven otherwise.

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>>53160209

>>53160177
>>53160196
>>53160209
>>53160244
There's also the 3 Klingons from O'Brien's time-travel episode. They were there to pose as normal, drunkard Klingons while spying on the Romulans.

>>53155690
>The great jello puddin pop is wibblin and wobblin in anger

Sisko is my favorite, but fuck if this didn't destroy my sides while reading it

>>53156880
Technobabble is a lazy, formulaic way of creating technology tailored to the core problem of each individual episode. And yes, it's terrible. At it's core, Star Trek having it's own technology with it's own rules is a good idea. Subspace, Warp Cores, Phasers, etc. They all have a loose set of rules that they adhere to, with some wiggle room for new ideas/problems down the road.

But Technobabble goes beyond that. It overly complicates the core concept by overwhelming the viewer with dozen of abstract terms that have never been mentioned before and never will be mentioned again, as a cheap way to sidestep continuity, and even then they sometimes manage to fuck it up by completely changing the purpose of a given technology. It's present in all of the series, but Voyager is, by far, the worst offender.

I honestly don't want to try and put a number on how many times it happens, but the following exchange, or variation thereof, is far too familiar.
>Be'Lanna. we need to boost power to the transphasic shields.
>I'm sorry captain, but our EPS relays are at bursting point trying to resist this geodessic radiation field.
>What if we tried remodulating our subspace field stabilisers to emit a duotronic phase amplifier wave?
>That might just form a subspace-poleron shear, pushing Voyager clear of the geodessic radiation!

What cleverness is there in that? What tension, even? They pull some random phrase out of their asses and then exposit that it'll save the day. That's not dramatic, that's deus ex machina in the worst sense of the phrase. And it wont ever be used again. In fact, a few weeks later they'll probably use one of those things to do something entirely different in essentially the same format.

What I find really egregious is when they decide to create a new mcguffin when they already have perfectly applicable mcguffins at their fingertips. Let's use the Voyager Episode "Inside Man" as an example. cont...

>>53162696
In Voyager, they must create dozens of forms of radiation. Some of them have actual grounding in scientific fact, albeit rather vaguely. “Geodesic Radiation” for example, is sort of an actual thing, but it’s really just used as science-y sounding word for “shit that’s going to kill us all, lickety split”.

But Star Trek has already established a number of perfectly suitable substitutes for this newly introduced mcguffin. Some of them even come from the Voyager series. Theta Radiation, for example. We’ve seen how lethal it is from interactions with the Malon. Throwing it out there as a serious threat isn’t unreasonable. It’s a known quantity.

But given the situation that our “geodesic radiation” is coming up, as something experienced very near to the surface of a star, It’s not unreasonable to just say Gamma radiation. That shit’s very real and will kill you just fine. Something the Enterprise had to deal with in “Brothers”.

The point is that giving something a fancy name just to sound complicated is a poor substitute for good writing. All it serves to do is needlessly complicate the story so that things seem to be happening when they might as well be saying:
>Be’Lanna, we need to science the whoseywhatsit. Press the button that stops the ship from exploding.
>I’m sorry captain but I’m enduring gastric distress due to Neelix’s inability to cook edible food.
>What if you tried wriggling your pinky up your own asshole for a bit?
>That night just break the poo up enough for me to sputter it out so I can press the “lets-not-die” button!

>>53149030
TUPAC ALIVE IN CARDASSIA AND MAKING FAST RAP MAGIC DEATH TO BAJOR HAHAHA DO NOT FORGT FUkc Turk asshole GOWRON RASCAL FUck our REPTile Brothers VOTH XAXAXAXA.

>>53162710

>Like a balloon where something bad happens

>>53162710
I agree.

>>53160630
fucking kek

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>>53163259
[Muffled it ain't me in the distance]

>>53162696
>>53162710
This is absolutely my biggest complaint with Voyager, because they use technobabble as the plot unto itself instead of just using it to set up the actual plot.

Let's take a random episode of Next Generation for example, like that one where La Forge and Ro end up phase cloaked. There's an absolute shit-ton of technobabble in the episode from start to end and the episode finishes with them using a whoseywhatsit wave to sweep the doohickey particles. But all of that just sets up the real themes and plot of the episode, which is: 1) La Forge and Ro's reactions to a situation that looks like death (Ro just accepts it while La Forge refuses to believe it, which is some good character moments), 2) the crew's response to what seems like the deaths of two close friends, and 3) them eventually puzzling out what the real issue is and finding a way to reverse it to save the day. If you take out the technobabble it's still a good episode, whereas if you take the technobabble out of a lot of Voyager episodes there's almost no real tension.

>>53165012
Voyager just plain suffered from having a mediocre bullpen and no one competent and as head writer. There was potential, but it was all squandered.

>>53162749
What the fuck are you even saying?

>>53165012
Yeah, this. There's a right way to use technobabble and a wrong way.

Personally, I've learned to accept it as just part of the entry cost for being really into Star Trek, to be honest.

>>53166206
They're referencing an old (in internet terms) joke that was particularly popular on 4chan.

>>53166616
We all generally do, but it's one of the fairest criticisms of Trek, regardless.

>>53166616

If a non-Trek fan walked into one of the many conversations my friends and I have regarding Trek, they'd probably come away with the assumption that I hate it.

But nothing can be further from the truth. I love Trek, and I'm hard on it because I want it to live up to the best parts of the franchise as often as possible.

>>53156880
>And the fuck is with pointing different colored lights at wiring do? Live every time someone is working on a piece of equipment they just point a light at it. They use the stuff like it's all a sonic screwdriver but the sonic screwdriver has a telepathic interface, so how in the fuck can the "hyper spanner" seem to fix everything just by blinking a light.
This boils down to "practical effects are hard, lights are easy" which is where the Federation's absurd expertise in energy manipulation comes from.

>>53159452
>Armada III borg are made to be a boss race that multiple players team up against. They are BROKEN as FUCK.
So, basically regular Borg before Voyager?

>>53159452
If a player selects the Borg they get a huge debuff to make them fair for for competitive multiplayer.

>>53168813

Please tell me it's called Future Janeway's Bitchin' Downgrade?

>>53168921
Pretty sure it's just Gul's safeguard against tryhards

>>53168616
Yeah, that's the idea. Fighting a borg cube is an ordeal. No matter how powerful your fleet is, you're going to bleed ships until it goes down. You'll lose even more if it has an assimilation beam.

>>53170998
Yeah, but they're a playable race. Cubes cost, what, twice as much as another race's battleship, but it'll take 4 or 5 of them in a straight fight.

So I was rewatching DS9 and I got to Ezri's argument for the Klingon Empire to die. And that got me thinking, the best outcome for the Klingon people, as a society, is extinction.

I don't mean this in the ham-fisted, protectionist way we get pretty frequently in these threads. I mean that, as a society, the Klingons are not only obsessed with death, but live their lives in veneration of it.

Their traditions are are paramount to their culture, at the cost of any sort of progress or reform. Most of those traditions are an invitation to die or to kill.

Even in attempting to break this continual of corruption usurping corruption, Worf reinforces the concept that all Klingon society is built around death. Achieving a good death, an honourable death.

Their religion upholds it, their laws uphold it. Their arts and zeitgeist uphold it. There is no dissenting voice against it.

Their state is stagnant in every way imaginable. Their people place more emphasis on death than life and every attempt to reform their system is met with overwhelming hostility. There is nothing more to be gained from living for them. For the Klingon society, all that is left is to seek a good death.

Only once that is achieved, could any new society hope to rise from the ashes.

>>53173139

This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the monoculture that the Klingons have been shown to have (with a few exceptions, like the old lawyer on Rura Penthe in ENT). The dominant Imperial culture is focused on four things, victory, honor, glory, and death.

Victory, through any means necessary.
Honor, or rather, the appearance thereof. Worf and Martok are the exception, rather than the rule and even Martok thinks Worf is crazy.
Glory, personal, or for the Empire. Either way, it requires victory, which generally means killing someone.
Death, either that of your enemy, in the pursuit of victory and glory, or your own (and if you can't have victory, make it a glorious death).

And this is bad for them as a society. The only way to achieve anything is through martial conquest and political skullduggery. Just asking the Federation for help when the Empire needed it took a visionary martyr.

I don't think that the Klingons have an emphasis on death so much as they have a stark black and white viewpoint. There is only victory, or glorious death. And that's not a fertile philosophy for finding common ground with others, or for finding new ways of doing things.

If you aren't charging into the teeth of the enemy with a bat'leth in one hand, and a disruptor pistol in the other, you're doing it wrong, or you're cloaked and will make up a better story than what actually happened (and if anyone challenges that story, you'll send them to Sto-vo-kor.

>>53173139
>>53173489
If there's one decent thing Enterprise did that wasn't Combs-related, it was try to show that the Klingon culture was dominated by a warrior caste that doesn't necessarily reflect the values of the majority of Klingons. Essentially, they're memeing themselves crazy. It's more accurate to say that an honorable life is one that serves and betters the Empire. Of course for the warrior caste that would mean being willing to die in service of the Empire, so the warrior caste venerated those who died in glorious battle, and the attitude probably ended up warping Klingon mythology like how modern day beliefs warp mythological and historical views in real life.

>>53173139
>>53173489
I'd be interested to see what point in their history created this inescapable, multi-century spanning obsession with death and combat in general.

The Klingons speak in fairly loose terms about their past. Besides some allusions to an alien race having been involved in their formative past, much of the historical period before the space faring Klingon Empire is treated like a separate mythology.

That leads me to believe that there has been a conscious attempt to disassociate a series of key events in Klingon history with reality.

>>53173580

Yep.

>>53173638

I'm betting it goes all the way back to Kahless. The Hur'q then didn't help things by later stealing the Sword of Kahless.

But, somewhere around 1,500-1,000 years before the show is when myth and history begin to become disassociated. (1,000 years for the theft of the Sword of Kahless, and 1,500 for the alleged time in which Kahless lived).

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kahless_the_Unforgettable
>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Hur%27q

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>tfw you realize the Borg announcer is the voice of every drone on the ship speaking in unison

>>53173638
>That leads me to believe that there has been a conscious attempt to disassociate a series of key events in Klingon history with reality.
I'm of the opinion that the Klingons we see in TOS are a new breed attempting to lead their people out of the darkness of stagnation, with Warrior Brown and Chancellor Ra's Al Ghul as attempts to bridge the gap with the wider Empire. It also lines up with Kang, Koloth and Kor ending up as basically has beens by the time of TNG and DS9. Nobody knows who they are, or cares. Praxis proceeds to completely fuck over their attempts, dooming the Klingons to cultural stagnation and mythic veneration. Why the fuck does so much of my stuff come back to Praxis?

>>53173489
>>53173580
It's a classic stratified aristocracy, is what it is. The Empire is ruled by an entrenched elite of Great Houses, who keep power largely through social conventions of tradition and honor. Consider how ritualistic combat is among members of noble houses. Duras, one of the most powerful men in the Empire in the TNG era, isn't even that great a fighter; he gets his ass kicked by a pariah who spent his life among humans.

I'd suggest that none of the Klingons on the High Council got there because of martial skill. I'd expect every single one of them is a patronage appointment - consider how easily Kurn gets a seat on the Council after he backs Gowron in the civil war, and how readily Gowron strips the House of Mogh of land and title when Worf defies him. I'd also expect this trend to be reflected in all the high-level institutions of the Empire.

>>53153861
>Excelsior and a Miranda

It's never going to not bug me that they're still using Mirandas of all things to fight in the Dominion war, but they've retired all the refit heavy cruiser Constitutions for no real reason

i mean if you can keep an Oberth not just spaceworthy but actually participating in fleet tender actions and possibly combat a hundred years on... you really have to wonder what the fuck was wrong with the Constitutions

>>53174892
There was a wreck of a Constitution at the battle of Wolf 359.

>be Kazon
>you're so shitty that the Borg doesn't want to assimilate you, even though you were one of the first races they found out about

>>53174892
The Constitutions were already getting swept under the carpet as early as Wrath of Khan. The original Ent ended up being an Academy training ship, and the Ent-A was given two diplomatic missions before being decommissioned. Chances are all the Constitutions were long-since confined to memories and museums, gradually replaced by Mirandas, Excelsiors and Oberths.

>>53165095
Macrocosm, Flashback, Timeless, Living Witness, Latent Image, Counterpoint, Deadlock

and not forgetting Equinox, wherein Janeway is forced to face another captain and openly admits that the only thing really distinguishing them in conduct is that Janeway's ship was larger and she took fewer losses because of the Maquis crew she acquired

if you've ever complained about how Janeway is inconsistent and frequently breaks the PD in spirit if not always in strict terms (even going so far as to casually trade her tech away to species that look y'know kinda developed in later seasons), Equinox is very cathartic

Ransom isn't wrong, Janeway isn't right; Ransom got caught out doing something he strictly speaking shouldn't have, and they both know it

it's Kirk as shit when she says "he's still a Starfleet captain" right at the end, and that's to me what Voyager did well: inconsistent, crazy, unbelievable stories right in the vein of TOS

>>53175025
They're good ships, but in Alpha canon their deep space exploration role means they get destroyed more in proportion to their class total. In FASA, incidentally, the Constitution, then the Enterprise classes serve as the backbone of the fleet until around the 2290s when the Excelsior nearly totally replaces it by dint of the Feds being able to build 2 and a half Excelsiors per Enterprise. And the Excelsior isn't replaced in FASA until the Galaxy comes online. Plus TNG destroyers in FASA are on par with the later Enterprise class marks, which could outfight 5-6 D-7s at once.

>>53175025
But why? They're the same vintage as the Miranda - the Reliant was even mentioned by number on-screen in TOS.

I know it's a ship recognition thing and when TNG started they were still making TOS movies and didn't want to confuse the issue but also didn't have a whole lot of money for an entirely new fleet, but...

I just wish they'd addressed it at some point. "The Saratoga? Well, Commander Sisko, it's not really surprising your wife and presumably most of your friends died horribly in front of you, those Mirandas were always underpowered compared to modern starships... still, at least they didn't just blow up fifty years after first flight like the Constitutions. Poor captain Uhura, the moment she got her command she was destroyed in a warp core breach and never lived to see her old captain, chief engineer, chief medical officer and science officer become weirdly important to us here, eighty years later."

>>53175163
Because Roddenberry wanted a clear break between TOS and TNG. With how insane Kirk's adventures are, the man should have been mentioned over and over throughout the show, but Roddenberry very clearly stated that basically nothing could be referenced in the TNG setting. He then proceeded to create Trelane in the Q, because he's lazy.

>>53175194
Roddenberry was also the cause of most of the things that were wrong with TNG. He never even wanted to do Next Gen, but he panicked when he heard Paramount was going ahead without him.

Reminder that he was known to rewrite scripts in the first two seasons to shoehorn in fanservice. He vehemently opposed anything that resembled serialization, for instance he apparently hated the script for Family. He also did everything he could to shoot down the casting of Patrick Steward for Picard.

Reminder also that Wes Crusher was a self-insert for Gene. Wesley was Roddenbery's middle name. When Crusher got his field commission near the end of S3, Roddenberry held a ceremony where he gave Wil Wheaton his Air Force 2LT bars.

>>53175163
>They're the same vintage as the Miranda

Except there's nothing indicating that the Miranda wasn't brand new, and a lot of soft-canon indicating the Enterprise was already not exactly new by that point and clearly a design that was supposed to do everything, which is really hard to do and balance.

If you look at how ships used to work, classes lasting more than a couple of major refits before they're clearly outdated is pretty uncommon. The Miranda is a bit of an anomaly in it's longevity but not in a way that can't easily be made to fit. It was built to different standards than the Constitutions, with a clear generational shift that the Constitutions required extensive refits to get into.

The Enterprise as one of the few surviving Constitutions was relegated to a training vessel and going to be decommissioned rather than repaired after 2285. By that point she was somewhere around 30-35 years old and the major refit 15 years past (TMP was in 2271, pretty much just after TOS's 3 years and TAS filling out the remaining 2 years of the 5 year mission and a year for overhaul then instead of ignoring the actors ageing like in TMP, Wrath of Khan simply made age a core theme and brought the date up to fit).

It's more logical that the Miranda was simply amongst the first of the generation seen in the original movies, built to new standards with an easily modified hull, coupled with a less demanding mission profile than the Constitutions. With the old ships on the way out due to the new stuff being much better they'll have built a lot of them. Following that it just stuck around getting shunted into ever less frontline roles in an increasingly quiet Federation throughout the early 2300s (leading to the pinnacle of extended peacetime ship design stupidity that was the Galaxy class), until a massive amount had to be pulled out of mothballs in the 2370s.

tl;dr: Mirandas were brand new when the Constitution was already old.
/autism

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>>53173638
>I'd be interested to see what point in their history created this inescapable, multi-century spanning obsession with death and combat in general.
Probably evolution. They have thick, heavy bones, high muscle mass, multiple redundant organs, etc. They prefer to eat live animals and raw meat. They are literally made for fighting (though apparently none of their major predators or prey in their evolution had tusks or the like, because Klingons die very readily to a poke in the gut - which is probably part of why they prefer the weapons they do). They have a more aggressive disposition than many other civilized humanoids. Hell, Worf killed a kid on accident playing footie.
>>53174598
>It also lines up with Kang, Koloth and Kor ending up as basically has beens by the time of TNG and DS9. Nobody knows who they are, or cares.
Of course they are past their prime - they are old, even by Klingon standards. They've had a long time to live down their high points, if they were even particularly notable in the first place. But at the very least Kor is a major hero, and only lost status because he got senile and made mistakes at the very end (including getting on Gowron's bad side). He was even able to get his crew's loyalty against Martok, which meant that the young folks knew of him too.
>>53174766
>Duras, one of the most powerful men in the Empire in the TNG era, isn't even that great a fighter; he gets his ass kicked by a pariah who spent his life among humans.
That "pariah" happened to be one of the best fighters of his age. Though Duras himself didn't seem to be that great of a warrior - in a land of drunk idiots, being a shrewd schemer can get you pretty far - he was no slouch either; with all his enemies, he wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as he did without being able to defend himself.

>>53174766
>I'd suggest that none of the Klingons on the High Council got there because of martial skill. I'd expect every single one of them is a patronage appointment - consider how easily Kurn gets a seat on the Council after he backs Gowron in the civil war, and how readily Gowron strips the House of Mogh of land and title when Worf defies him.
It looks like the "high council" is mostly Klingon richfags - the fact that Mogh had a lot of lands, etc. to take, and that this was a part of the punishment for dishonor, suggests this. It seems the High Council functions a lot like the Roman Empire did - senators were the richfags, and being a senator gave one position to get even richer. But the Emperor could screw you over if he didn't like you - not directly, but if he could find an excuse (which often were matters of honor), then it would be over. The Chancellor seems to have a sort of cultural-religious authority as well as civil and military, as Gowron could just up and declare, in a moment, whether one was acting honorably or dishonorably, which has dire religious significance. (Though discommendation seems to be something that actually requires the whole High Council.)

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>>53175767

Not that it's definitive, but the Reliant's call number is on the board of ships undergoing repairs in the TOS episode Court Martial. I'm not for a minute suggesting that it was planned this way - it may have just been that someone took note of those numbers, and stenciled it on the Reliant's model.

There were also Constitution class starships present at Wolf 359, if the debris can be believed.

As for the Galaxy? We know more about it than any other ship thanks to the TNG Tech Manual. The dumbest thing is the civilians aboard. That a large proportion of them were destroyed or damaged by the Dominion isn't necessarily a mark against the class, since Galaxies would be high value targets (taking out such a powerful starship and its sizable crew would be a very difficult loss for the Federation to mitigate).

As much as we might like to come up with in-universe explanations for why we don't see any working Connies in TNG, it's most likely that it was for out of universe reasons. Namely, it was too recognizably the ship from the original show.

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>>53176304

I don't know how accurate this is (I haven't exactly studied the Wolf 359 effects shots in depth), but I'll throw it up just for the sake of discussion.

Also, Reliant's MA page:

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Reliant

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>>53176376

Presumably, a lot of these were kitbashes. I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer from CBS or Paramount about the age of the Miranda. So, really, it could be any of the possible conjectures. The truth is, I don't know, you don't know, and it's doubtful anyone working on Trek cares.

I had an idea for an episode where Worf goes to So-Vo-Kor and rather than the endless glorious battle he expected, it's more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTuwo_TqlhQ

Turns out Kahless got bored of eternal conflict, so it's a place where Klingons can pursue the passions that would have gotten them called dishonourable in life.

>>53178512
It irks me that, despite being the ugliest Fed ship in the Kelvin Timeline, STO is only putting the Kelvin-Connie out there

>>53178534
>ugliest Fed ship in the Kelvin Timeline

You're forgetting the Franklin

>>53178694
The Franklin isn't unique to the Kelvin timeline. NX class was built before the timelines diverged.

>>53178722
The Franklin isn't the same class as the Enterprise. She's a precursor. But I take your meaning

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>that episode of TNG when Scotty comes back and it finally hits him on how old and useless he is.

>>53179394
>The Franklin isn't the same class as the Enterprise
No shit, it's an NX class that was built before the Kelvin incident split the timelines.

>>53179434

The Enterprise IS an NX Class.

>>53179430

>episode introduces another engineer character
>Geordi starts acting like a complete dick

Every time

>>53179434
No, what I'm saying is that It ain't an NX class. The Enterprise(NX-01), Columbia(NX-02) and Avenger(NX-09) were NX class (referred to as Columbia class in Beta canon). The Franklin might be part of the same NX project, like the NX-Delta (Neptune Class), but it isn't the final product. She predates the Warp 5 engine. Alpha canon has her as a "Franklin type", for record.

>>53160666
Considering we don't even know how the Klingon Intelligence service operates, I'd wager a guess that they are the best spies in Trek-verse.

>>53179535
>the ship exists in the alpha cannon
So you're agreeing with >>53178722 that the Franklin isn't unique to the Kelvin timeline?

>>53179535

>NX-Delta (Neptune Class)

I think you're compressing three different ships into one there.

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>>53179522
Geordi really is a massive dick whenever another engineer comes round. I bet he shafted O'Brian because he was jealous.

>>53179522
Hardly unique to Geordi. Literally every Starfleet engineer is overly territorial with their engines.

>>53179592

The Franklin may or may not be unique to the Kelvin timeline. Around Beyond's release Pegg said they were assuming that Nero's incursion created a temporal ripple effect that means events in the Kelvin timeline pre-Nero might have been altered from events in the Prime timeline pre-Nero.

>>53179640
Until this post I did not think NuTrek could possibly become any more retarded.

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>>53179595
The NX-Delta is the triangle-looking chucklefucker we see a few times, which apparently broke the warp 3 barrier. Specifically we see her flanking the Intrepid, which was an NV class ship, sometimes referred to as Intrepid class. The NX-delta seemingly went on to become a de-facto escort ship, referred to as Neptune class from then on.

I'll admit, there's probably some technical differences between the 2 classes, but visually they are identical.

>>53179592
I'm correcting a technical error in the statement.

>>53179691
>I'm correcting a technical error in the statement.
I bet your parents are proud of you.

>>53179759
>getting this spicy because you made a mistake

Try chilling out once in a while.

>>53179854
Yeah you're right, not only am I the anon who made a mistake, but I definitely haven't memorized Memory Alpha to the same degree you have. Congratulations.

>>53179888
>memorized Memory Alpha

took about 30 seconds to google. Not to mention that the Franklin and and NX Enterprise are visibly different. But please, feel free to bitch at the person that is more or less agreeing with your initial statement.

>>53179628
That's because they are all tinkering mavericks who do non regulation shit to their machines. If someone new comes in and starts prodding shit they are either going to get found out or possibly the engine explodes.

>>53179666
Well Satan, they're making another one, so we only have to wait a couple years for it to get worse.

>>53179948
When you think about it, that's got to be a nightmare for station repair crews. They come on board, with standard specs for a Protag-class starship, only for the Chief Engineer to drop a list of "small tweaks" they've made on their laps. They then have to spend the next week navigating the death trap that is a an antimatter reactor that's got it's own "personality".

>>53179691

The ship that appears in the ENT opening before the Phoenix and the NX-01 was internally called the "SS Emmette". It was supposed to represent the first time Earth launched a 'starship', something that could transport a crew to other systems. Other dialogue indicates this would have occured in the 2060s only a few years after the Phoenix's launch.

The basic design of the Emmette would be refined over following century, including removing all the rocket engines from the rear of the primary hull, and by the 2150s multiple "Warp Deltas", so nicknamed for their shape resembling the Starfleet logo were still in service.

The NX Delta achieved warp 3 in 2145. Named for being the fourth in its line (I guess Gamma was a failure undeserving of mention), I assumed like Alpha and Beta it was just a big engine with a little room for a pilot to sit.

The Neptune-class a bit of a mystery. In 2152, Tucker says they've been using a certain model of chair in warp 2 ships for over a decade. However Earth's first Warp 2 ship was the NX Alpha in 2143. In reality, this was just a writer error, but I guess you can take it to mean they were an older class which had refits in 2140 that included a new chair, and in 2150 that included an engine upgrade to warp 2, in which case that could describe the Warp Deltas.

>>53175767
Galaxy-class was introduced toward the end of the Federation-Cardassian war, but OK

I like your style

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>>53174568
Here you go, champ. You've earned it.

>>53174892
The Constitution class, no matter how pretty it may have been, was an underpowered maintenance nightmare both pre and post refit. Scotty pushed the Enterprise and Enterprise-A well beyond what they were supposed to be capable of doing. The other ships in the class didn't have that luxury. That's part of why it was the Enterprise in particular setting fleet speed records rather than the USS Constitution in stripped down testbed mode.

A Miranda of similar vintage, on the other hand, could take on the Enterprise with a bit of treachery and a crew of less than 50 people unfamiliar with the spaceframe.

>>53176304
Why do they have the torpedo pod as a deflector on that thing?

>>53181696
You see, if you fire torpedoes at something and blow it up, then it can't hit your ship...
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-see-ivan

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What is /STG/'s thoughts on this ship?

>>53183220
Something that the Federation desperately needed.

>>53183220

Why is there a giant hole in the saucer?

>>53183220
Fucking ugly, awful design fitting for an awful film that's a combination of everything wrong with modern sci-fi.

>>53183220
Nu-trek so I don't give a fuck.

>>53183220
Aesthetically terrible. Clunky. Clearly an antagonist ship. Hate it.

As for her usefulness, she's kind of pointless seeing as the baseline weaponry for their "exploration fleet" could already level planets. Unless she's less expensive to build than comparable starfleet ships and takes less time, I wouldn't bother building it.

The only thing I can think of to say in her defence is that we never actually saw her engage in a proper fight so it's hard to tell if Admiral Robocop had done a good or bad job.

>>53183436
So it can open giant bottles.

>>53183537
the thing is that it could be operated by a single person, instead of the hundreds you'd need on other starships

The Enterprise-D is dropped into the beginning of the first dead space game, how do they proceed?

>>53183463
This desu - Into Darkness, in hindsight, was by far the weakest of the new films so far.

'09 was forgivable because the whole film was so jam-packed (establishing where it is relative to the prime timeline, origin stories, background scene-setting for normies, as well as the main meal of the story itself).

Beyond was surprisingly deep with the juxtaposition of Kirk and Edison, and although the former is still far too fucking smug for his own good (with the sole exception of the Beastie Boys scene), it's a fairly decent stab at a coming-of-age arc.

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I wonder what the benefits are to a nacelle ring. I also wonder why Vulcan ships were so pointy.

>>53183968
maybe they don't fuck too much with the structural integrity of the ship

>>53183920
There's precious little there, other than WoK tributes that fall flat at best and are beyond patronising at worst, far more shooting than is necessary, some vaguely political commentary, and an OPENING setting the tone that Kirk can get away with being a little shit because he's Kirk unlike Beyond, where his whole arc is digging himself out of the hole and going "huh, maybe that 5 year assignment wasn't so bad after all".

>>53183998
I forgot what the opening was to the second film.

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>>53183220
It's a big ship.

>>53184079

They run away from some natives on a planet full of red plants then jump into the ocean where the enterprise is waiting for them.

>>53183896
what would Picard do? Just see through the sensors that it's all fucked, destroy the ship and glass the planet, or would he try to salvage the ship/create a cure/etc?

>>53184112

Can any Fed ship be considered big when the Voth exist?

>>53183220
>>53184112
if fagbrams hadn't fucked with the ship sizes it would've been a lot better

>>53184160
Id dare say that the Ent-J is comparable to them.

>>53184160
oh come on, the voth had tens of millions of years of head start

>>53184169
Yeah, like if it had been the alt-universe version of the Excelssior, then it might had been better.

>>53184114
Isn't that more mis-en-scene than an attempt to establish that Kirk can get away with shit?

>>53184199
it couldn't have been though, the vengeance was a super secret section 31 warship, what i'm talking about is how the jjverse constitution class is bigger than a prime timeline sovereign class, just because of "muh star wers feel" fagbrams had talked about

>>53184122

I've never played it, but from reading the plot summary I assume it would be another "Data saves the day because he's immune to the thing that affects lifeforms while discovering something about human nature in the process" stock plot.

>>53184208

Kirk getting away with shit is the following scene, where he lies on his offical report about breaking the Prime Directive.

>>53184247
And then the fucker went to actual Star wars and supersized the Death star.

You can tell that man used to work at McDonalds.

>>53184288
Well, the bigger problem is that the mining ship is overrun with those horrifying creatures, from my understanding people can go inside the ship without being mutated, unless they get attacked and don't have plot armor

>>53184379
he probably has some serious mental disabilities

>>53183920
>'09 was forgivable because the whole film was so jam-packed
It was their choice to make it jam-packed. And while I'm not one to defend Into Darkness, '09 was more plot holes than plot. It was really insultingly stupid. Into Darkness was probably only half as bad, but then again, it's another pint of alcohol when you've already had two -- you start the thing already queasy from what came before it.

>>53183896
Probably something along the following lines:

>The Enterprise detects a distress call
>They discover an old vessel, apparently of Earth design.
>It seems to be in the middle of some sort of planetary mining procedure.
>Clearly, something has gone wrong, as a cloud of debris surrounds the ship.
>Picard tries to hail the beleagured mining vessel.
>No response.
>A quick Scan reveals that the ship is full of lifeforms
>Human... not quite
>there's something anomalous in their genetic structure.
>Riker leads an away team to the ship's bridge to discover what's happening
>The awauy team is attacked by necromorphs from all sides
>Riker decides to withdraw with his team and a copy of the ships logs
>a small piece of alien viscera is beamed back with them
>While Data and Picard go over the logs, Crusher scans the alien DNA
>As they piece together this mystery, the crew begin to become agitated and paranoid
>Troi starts experiencing fucked up visions
>The crew are starting to go insane when Data pieces the puzzle together
>After fighting off the crew, he releases neurozeine gas on all decks, incapacitating the crew while he destroys the unknown vessel
>Soon after, the crew recover and have a long discussion about the dangers of the unknown.
>The place down a "stay the fuck away" beacon on the planet, catalogue it inStarfleet records and head on their merry way

>>53184438
not trying to defend '09 or anything, but which are the plotholes? I personally never noticed, but then again, I've only watched it once or twice while not paying too much attention

>>53184530
why do I have a feeling that something similar to that actually happened in TNG?

>>53184581
Sounds like a combination of that de-evolution episode and the Voyager episode with the macrovirus.

>>53184530
I like how the Ent-D and her crew are basically fucking invincible to everything but oil slick monsters.

>>53184581
It's all fairly standard Trek fare. I recently rewatched TNG so I just threw in a few recurring concepts.

>Picard tries diplomacy first
>Troi has visions
>The crew lose their minds because of some misunderstood technology
>Data is immune to the gubbins
>Crusher comes to some horrifying conclusion about the obviously fucked up

The only thing I'm really missing is a bit where the ship is trapped there and Jeordi notices a power drain. Oh, and something about Worf being infected during close combat.

>>53184613
yeah, makes sense

why did broccoli de-evolved into a spider tho?

>>53184537
It actually doesn't have any. "Plotholes" are what Trekkies tend to say when they don't like a particular decision of dubious scientific sense.

In this case I'm going to guess it's the Hobus Supernova, i.e., "how could a single supernova threaten the entire galaxy with destruction, and how could it destroy Romulus before the Romulans had a chance to evacuate, given that the supernova's shockwave should be traveling at sublight speeds?"

To which I generally reply,

1) That's not a plot hole, that's merely a contrived circumstance of doubtful scientific accuracy executed for narrative convenience;

2) You might find this hard to believe, but "FTL galaxy-killing supernova" is hardly the strangest thing Star Trek has ever asked us to accept.

The strangest thing Star Trek has ever asked us to accept is the Mirror Universe. Given that humanity is so fundamentally different in attitude in the Mirror Universe, it's inconceivable that the same people could have been born at the same time in their respective universes and yet acted totally different, AND YET still for multiple generations have the same people at the same time continuously born again and again. But Trek asks us to accept it for narrative convenience, so I do. Which, coincidentally, also handily explains things like Chekov and Sulu still being born in the Kelvin timeline: narrative convenience. If you hate the Kelvin Timeline for it then ipso facto you also hate "Mirror, Mirror", and therefore are stupid.

>>53184537
it's been a while, so I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch, but the whole time travel thing is stupid. Spock only needs a dab of the red matter to get the job accomplished, but carries like 50 times more than he needs. It can obviously be a horribly destructive weapon, but he goes unescorted in a small, defenseless ship with all that shit. Then Romulan dude somehow blames Spock for the disaster, which maybe makes a little bit of sense shortly after it happens because he's out of his mind with grief, but then he holds onto it for a really long time, and his crew just goes along with it. And with him going back in time, does he think "hey, now I can save my people!"? Nope. He goes out for senseless revenge. And while we're on the subject of red matter, why is it that they need to drill to the core of the planets again? A drop creates a singularity, which would "consume" the matter around it, feeding itself in the process. A drop on the surface of a planet should do the job.

Now let's skip over the asinine way that Kirk and friends end up in charge of the Enterprise and go to stupidities of location. Romulan dude wants old Spock to suffer, so does he keep him on his ship where he can watch his anguish? Nope. Instead he maroons him on a dangerous ice planet which is apparently like 3 feet away from Vulcan given the size of Vulcan in the sky. Now, there's a good chance that old Spock will just get eaten by some monster there, but if he doesn't, there's a convenient Federation base there he can go to.

Now young Spock gets fed up with Kirk's shit and ejects him onto the dangerous ice planet. (Suddenly Spock is chaotic evil and stupid?). Well, what do you know? Kirk just happens to stumble upon old Spock, because how big could a planet possibly be? I mean, if I dropped you off in a random part of Australia, it would probably only be a matter of minutes before you ran into that guy who played Crocodile Dundee.

>>53184710
I personally don't hate the kelvin timeline, I just hate the way fagbrams portrayed the characters

>>53184820
So this is the star wars feel fagbrams told about

>>53184820
Okay, so now Spock and Kirk head to the friendly neighborhood Federation base where -- can you guess who they meet? Scotty! Scotty just happens to be there. What a fucking coincidence! Unfortunately, all is for naught because they can't catch up with the Enterprise. But wait! Scotty just happens to have been working on a revolutionary new way to transport people, allowing them to transport a long distance onto a ship at warp. What a twist!

By now, the plot has precisely zero integrity left, but I still feel like I should mention all the Star Fleet ships fucking off and leaving Earth defended only by an automated system that can apparently any captain knows the codes to deactivate, and there's apparently nobody on Earth that can just "fuck that shit" and turn the shit back on.

>>53184924
A "coincidence" is not the same thing as a "plot hole", senpai.

>>53184913
Consider that JJA then got a job making Star Wars. A more cynical man than I might assume he was just doing the NuTrek films as a very big display to show that he could do the Star Wars. But that would be far too cynical for a board created for Mongolian shadow puppets.

>>53184854
Honestly, the coolest parts of both the original series and TNG is when they're grappling with how to solve a problem. Star Trek is at its best when it's pondering things and being cerebral. JJ Trek replaces that with lens flare, attitude, and punching people in the face because JJ said he never "got" Star Trek and wanted to make a movie that folks like him would enjoy.

Also, I really fucking hate Pine's Kirk. I found myself actually rooting against that stupid, petulant, out-of-control fuckwad.

>>53185017
>just turn off your brain lmao

>>53185017
>A "coincidence" is not the same thing as a "plot hole", senpai.
It is when it's ridiculous enough, and it is when there are like a dozen of them.

>>53185033
>>53185064
abrams and pegg gutted star trek just to follow their own agendas, seriously fuck them

>>53185064
The best part of TOS were the fight scenes, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

>>53184820
>Spock only needs a dab of the red matter to get the job accomplished, but carries like 50 times more than he needs

It is possible that he didn't know how much he would need.

> but he goes unescorted in a small, defenseless ship with all that shit.

1) the ship isn't defenseless, we see very clearly that it has weapons.

2) It was specifically mentioned that speed was of the essence - they needed to get the the front of the Hobus wave fast - and that the Jellyfish (or whatever it was called) was their fastest ship. It is, in other words, explained why he's unescorted: no other ship could keep up with the speed he had to travel at. So that's not a plot hole.

>but then he holds onto it for a really long time, and his crew just goes along with it.

I know, it was the most Romulan thing I've ever seen. Hey, newsflash: some people are fucking batshit insane. And Romulans don't exactly like Vulcans much to begin with and have never been on good terms with the Federation.

>He goes out for senseless revenge

I know, it's the most Romulan thing I've ever seen. Also, not a plot hole.

Like I said, Trekkies use "plot hole" when they really mean "thing I do not personally like".

>why is it that they need to drill to the core of the planets again?

...okay, yeah, that's kind of a plot hole. But a minor one for the sake of narrative convenience. Trek does that all the time.

>which is apparently like 3 feet away from Vulcan given the size of Vulcan in the sky

Secondary canon, like the Star Trek Star Charts, has actually always had Vulcan having a sister planet of massive size. However elsewhere when asked it's been confirmed that that was an artistic interpretation; Spock didn't literally see the planet, he just "felt" it die via psychic abilities.

>so does he keep him on his ship

Frankly given all the shit Spock has done in his life this just seems smart. If Nero had kept him on his ship Spock would have found some way to screw things up for him.

>>53185119
The fuck did Pegg do?

>>53185197
the third sequel of the most unnecessary reboot ever?

>>53185220
I wasn't aware Pegg was a Paramount executive.

>>53184820
Continued.

>Kirk just happens to stumble upon old Spock, because how big could a planet possibly be?

Again, that's narrative convenience, and not even the biggest one in Star Trek. Yeah, a planet is big. So is SPACE, but the Enterprise never seems to be too far away when a distress call is sent out even though they're supposed to be deep space explorers and the warp speeds we've been given on the show mean that even getting from Earth to Alpha Centauri should generally take days, not hours.

>>53184924
>What a fucking coincidence!

This is, by a significant margin, not the biggest random coincidence in Star Trek lore.

Remember the planet who's history just so happened to exactly parallel Earth's for most of its history? Hell, remember TWO planets like that? The Komm/Yang one and the Roman Empire one.

(Neither the Gangster Planet nor Nazi Planet are those, though)

>Scotty just happens to have been working on a revolutionary new way to transport people, allowing them to transport a long distance onto a ship at warp. What a twist!

Actually, no. Well, yes, Scotty had been working on it in a theoretical sense, but had not figured it out. Future Spock is the one who actually provides the equation to Scotty, since Future Spock remembered it from a point in the future where Scotty had figured it out. It's a cute little nod to Trek IV when Scotty gave away the transparent aluminum formula to a guy in the past with the justification to McCoy of "how do you know he didn't invent it?"

>all the Star Fleet ships fucking off

Oh, that too is classic Trek. How often has the Enterprise been the only ship in range even when operating close to Earth?

>>53185220
FUCK YOU SIDEWAYS, Star Trek Beyond was the best Trek movie since First Contact. Hell, it was better than First Contact.

>>53185305
First Contact is a 4.5/10

>>53185305
t. Simon Pegg

>>53185305
>Star Trek Beyond was the best Trek movie since First Contact. Hell, it was better than First Contact.
To be fair, that's a really fucking low bar.

>It is possible that he didn't know how much he would need.
I was misremembering when I said he had like 50 times more red matter than he needed. It was, at the very least, thousands of times more than he needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbwCXr-vumw

>1) the ship isn't defenseless
It's easily outmatched by one capital ship, so it clearly isn't well-defended enough.

>So that's not a plot hole.
It is when they entrust him with enough red matter to collapse ten thousand suns.

>I know, it's the most Romulan thing I've ever seen. Also, not a plot hole.

>Like I said, Trekkies use "plot hole" when they really mean "thing I do not personally like".

I don't want to quibble about what qualifies as a plot hole, so I'll change my terminology. There are more fucking retarded things in that movie than there are non-retarded things.

>Frankly given all the shit Spock has done in his life this just seems smart.
The smart thing to do would be to kill him. Putting him down on a planet near a Federation outpost is retarded levels of stupid and isn't at all assured of accomplishing the entire purpose for keeping Spock alive in the first place (seeing as he could've just gotten eaten).

>>53185341
First Contact is a fine movie. Just not a particularly good Trek movie. It's still better than almost any of the odd-numbered Treks, though.

My personal ranking:

1. The One with the Klingon that Quotes Shakespeare
2. Classical Music
3. The Wrath of KHAAAAAAAAN!!!
4. Galaxy Quest
5. The One with the Whales
6. The One with the Bog
7. The Best Bad One
8. The One with Both Captains
9. The One that Rebooted the Frachise
10. Wherein God Needs a Starship
11. Wrath of Khan II: Electric Boogaloo
12. The One that Killed the Franchise
13. The Slow-Motion Picture
14. The Wort One (AKA, Space Luddites)

>>53185288
>The Komm/Yang one and the Roman Empire one.
That was pretty fucking dumb and significantly diminished that episode. If dozens of things like that happened in the episode, then it could be a movie directed by JJ Abrams.

>>53185425 of course links to >>53185156
It just kept giving me a communication error, which went away after I deleted the link for some reason.

>>53185474
First Contact is an excellent DS9 movie.

>>53185474
I also don't believe First Contact was too bad. However, I also believe that it kicks the shit out of Star Trek: Beyond and all the other nuTrek drivel.

>>53185305
I feel exactly the same way.

I'll be honest. I liked the first 2 of the JJ Trek films. They were the best Star Wars films since Return of the Jedi. They weren't Star Trek films, that's for damn sure, and they had some total dog shit moments of which SPok shouting "KHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!" ranks right up near the top but they were kind of fun if you don't think about shit too hard.

But Beyond actually felt like a ST:TOS film or at least something not far from it right down to the stupid shit like saving the day with the power of classical music.

At any rate I feel time has dulled the luster on the glistening turds that were Star Trek: The Slow Motion Picture, Kirk Shoot God, Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis.

Still not as good as WoK and The One With the Whales

>>53184710
but everyone in the mirror universe is a rampant bisexual.

Shit's hot.

>>53185474
*whoops, meant "Borg", not Bog.

>>53185477
Eh, the Roman Empire one was fine. The Comm/Yang one could have been good had they stuck with showing the Comms as racially diverse, civilized, and reasonable; an the Yangs as monoracial (white), primitive, and fundamentally duplicitous. A nice "turn on the head" of the normal Cold War mentality of the time.

>>53183220

It's an ugly behemoth that visually represents Admiral Marcus's compromised ideals. It's fine for what it is, but its a shame the whole plotline involving the Vengeance was hijacked for Wrath of Khan 2.0: Badly Going Where We've Tread Before.

>>53184913
>>53185033
When I first saw JJTrek, I thought it was dumb, but the style would have been great for Star Wars.
When I first saw JJWars, I realized JJTrek was a warning.

>>53183220
I liked it, it's a really cool ship design, particularly liked the arcing phasers. I also thought Cucumberpatch's Khan was better than Montalban's.

Still the worst of the Nu Trek movies though.

>>53185500
>saving the day with the power of classical music

If original Trek had possessed the budget, they totally would have done something to the same effect.

>A LITTLE LESS CONVERSATION, A LITTLE MORE ACTION PLEASE
"Good choice..."
>ALL THIS AGGRAVATION AIN'T SATISFACTIONIN' ME
>A LITTLE MORE BITE A LITTLE LESS BARK
"Is this classical music?
>A LITTLE MORE FIRE AND A LITTLE LESS SPARK
>SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND OPEN UP YOUR HEART AND BABY SATISFY ME
"Yes, Doctor, I believe it is."
>SATISFY ME BABY

>>53185546
Y'know, drop Khan from the movie and Marcus by himself probably would have been a fine villain.

>>53185288
>>53185156
So here's the thing: you can justify maybe one or two things like that as artistic license. Things like that weaken the movie, but a gap or two probably won't bring the whole movie down unless they're very egregious. But when you've got so many gaps, there's barely any sound structure there. It's lazy, terrible, stupid writing and it's frankly disrespectful to the audience that they're handing us this crap, hoping we're too retarded to notice or maybe just that we'll be too distracted by lensflare to be able to access our logic centers.

>>53183537
>she's kind of pointless

It's clearly superior to the Constitution class in pretty much every way though.

Sure baseline phasers can level unprotected planets, but in a war, you're not going to just be shooting undefended planets, you're probably going to have to fight other ships.

>>53185590
I feel I'm coming at this from a fundamentally different perspective, because I measure my movies according to two independent scales, not one: How technically good it is ("quality"), and how much I enjoyed it. And of the two I weigh the latter a little more heavily, because the first job of a movie is to put and keep butts in seats. Only after that's accomplished should it start to worry about any kind of quality control.

So, for example, Star Trek 2009 might not rate very high in terms of quality, but it's still enjoyable.

For the record, my benchmarks:

Low quality & entertainment: Any Uwe Bole film
Low quality, high entertainment: Speed Racer
High quality, low entertainment: Citizen Kane
High quality & high entertainment: Empire Strikes Back

>>53185582
They really should have left out Khan completely. I don't know who that was aimed at.

The general audience for these movies basically went 'huh, who?' when the whole 'My name is.....KHAN' reveal was done because they'd never have watched Wrath of Khan and wouldn't have a clue why that name would be significant. So Khan wasn't a selling point for that demographic i.e. the bulk of the audience.

And Trek fans didn't want a shitty retread of a much-loved movie and character, so they were never going to be excited either.

Hell, if they'd REALLY needed to rip off Wrath of Khan and/or include an augment, they could have had an alternative member of Khan's crew be woken up instead of him.

>>53184710

It actually does have a plothole. Where the fuck is Nero for 25 years? And no, some deleted scene doesn't count - when viewed in theaters, Nero is just gone for 25 years doing nothing. Then, he suddenly shows up, destroys a fleet of Klingon ships, attacks Vulcan, and the real plot (what little of it there is) begins.

>>53185705
>Where the fuck is Nero for 25 years

Waiting. Lurking in the dark between stars. Probably behind/within some nebula or something.

He's got the most powerful ship in the galaxy at the time, it's not like he has to worry about someone finding him. He'll just blow them up.

Spending 25 years doing nothing but hating Spock and waiting for him to show up and reinforcing your crew's own hate of the man and the Federation, also helps explain his fanaticism. As Future Spock pointed out, he was a particularly troubled Romulan. Doing nothing but focusing on that for 25 years would only compound that.

BUT, him being stuck on Rura Penthe for 25 years explains it better. I wish that scene hadn't been deleted.

>>53184710
Multiverse theory, there are an infinite number of universes, so any conceivable kind of universe can exist.

There's an infinite number of mirror universes where the Terran Empire exists, but Kirk, Spock etc never exist, we just happen to see the one where they do, mainly due to muh narrative.

>>53185705
And all of this while not even getting into the romulan ship that looks like one of those alien ships of Knowing(2009) that got assimilated by the borg instead of looking like what a romulan mining ship would look like, and the romulans themselves with a new design

>>53185775
>so any conceivable kind of universe can exist.

Yeah, but whenever we go to the Mirror Universe it is always the specific Mirror Universe that just so happens to have everyone who exists in our timeline also be born in that one, at the same time, to the same parents, and get the same name. They even usually end up getting positions of roughly the same importance, even if not exact.

>>53185783
There was a comic that explained that. And startrek.com doesn't have a line anymore than only live-action stuff is canon, and hasn't for years. Canon is looser and more fluid now.

>>53185764

I think we can just agree that it's dumb, and that (speaking only for myself) I don't like all the dumb things in 2009, and you're not bothered by them (which is fine, we have different tastes in movies).

>>53185783

Yeah. Apparently that gets "explained" by a prequel comic book I wasn't provided with when I went to go see 2009 in theaters. So, obviously I'm not a real Trek fan because I not only didn't know the comic existed, but didn't read it prior to seeing the movie, and generally despise comics and beta canon in general.

I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm being sarcastic about some of the things I've been told over the years.

>>53185842

Everyone except Jake.

>>53185842
>>53185856
>nutrek relies on beta canon to make sense
this is really sad

>>53185665
>So, for example, Star Trek 2009 might not rate very high in terms of quality, but it's still enjoyable.
I can understand where you're coming from. 2009 was certainly a lot more entertaining than it was good, but it would've been a good deal more entertaining than it was if I weren't constantly wincing at how stupid the thing that just happened was.

>Low quality & entertainment: Any Uwe Bole film
I think I've only seen one of them, but it certainly fits.

>Low quality, high entertainment: Speed Racer
Haven't seen it. It looked obnoxious and terrible.

>High quality, low entertainment: Citizen Kane
I actually haven't seen Citizen Kane. It's on my list of classic movies that I want to get around to watching.

>High quality & high entertainment: Empire Strikes Back
Sure.

I'm actually trying to think of a really low-quality movie that I liked. Okay, Starcrash is pretty awesome, but I don't think you're suggesting that the cool thing about JJ Trek is that it's so bad it's amusing. I think that I mostly just don't like low quality movies.

>>53185705
Yeah, it's a bit of a plothole, but more a result of editing to reach a set running time than a glaring oversight.

I didn't really think about it when I watched it and even if I did, the idea that he'd been off having his own adventures while waiting for Spock to show up would fill the blank for me.

>>53185764

My biggest issue with that is not only is Nero insane, but also stupid. He could have given the ship to the Romulan Star Empire for ten of those years to give them an enormous leap in power, and still had another ten to grapple with his grief over losing his wife and child. And then he could have spent 5 tackling his hatred for Spock, and when he realized it was never going to fade or go away, then blow up Vulcan.

The entire plot hinges on one man's insanity, grief, and hatred, and expects us to just accept that his loyal force of goons would sit out there for a significant chunk of their lives without wavering in their determination to punish Spock for being late.

would you like to be on the crew that went to explore the dyson sphere after picard found it?

>>53186090

Is there anyone who wouldn't?

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>>53186090
yess

>>53186006
>The entire plot hinges on one man's insanity, grief, and hatred, and expects us to just accept that his loyal force of goons would sit out there for a significant chunk of their lives without wavering in their determination to punish Kirk for being late.
And this is why I think Wrath of Khan is only the 4th best TOS movie in hindsight.

>>53185890
Eh, simply knowing that the ship was from nearly 200 years in the future is good enough for me. A modern oil tanker has no weapons except the odd flare gun, but would be essentially immune to any vessel from 1817 and could just plow straight through them without incurring any significant damage itself.

>>53185894
>Haven't seen it. It looked obnoxious and terrible.

It IS the Speed Racer cartoon, just in movie form, so if you like the cartoon you'll like the movie, and if you didn't, then you won't. The movie doesn't try to fix or explain anything about the universe, in fact it doubles down on every aspect of it - it's basically a big, warm, fuzzy hug from the Wachowskis to the franchise.

Also it has by a significant margin the best introduction to a movie I've ever seen, coming up with a way to quickly introduce most of the main characters and their backstories and motivations without lengthy expositions.

These four videos are most of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C317XBanTOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-QaGllHqN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC672314kEU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYsdcBacV2U

Honestly the only real mistake the movie made was releasing a week before Iron Man.

>>53186167
why would the romulans change their ship designs after Nemesis? I know it's a mining ship, but it doesn't look like a romulan design the same way that the romulans themselves don't

was nutrek made for people so stupid that they wouldn't comprehend the difference between vulcans and romulans if the original design was used?

>>53186129

You're funny, I'll give you that.

>>53186097
Me. I want to explore space, not a single planet. Even if it is a single ridiculously huge planet.

Mind, coming back to the Sphere every now and then? I'm all up for that.

>>53185425
>It's easily outmatched by one capital ship
Actually, its not even a capital ship. It's a mining ship.

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>>53186219
>why would the romulans change their ship designs after Nemesis?

I see no reason to assume that Romulans are any more homogenous in ship designs than the Federation is.

Pic is the Excelsior and a contemporary Federation merchant ship, both first seen in Star Trek III. They look nothing alike, but both are Federation vessels (well, one is probably independently owned...but then, the Narada herself may well have been as well).

>>53186344
*sorry, when I said "contemporary", I meant "contemporaneous". I do not have a starship hidden in my backyard. I don't even have a backyard.

>>53186370
hmmmm

>>53186129

There's some significant differences between Khan and Nero. For one, there's only 18 years between Space Seed and WoK. For two, the augments are stranded on Ceti Alpha V. They don't have a giant starship with which to go anyplace, and we learn that a significant number of bad things happened to them during those 18 years (such as McGiver's dying, as well as a number of the augments).

For three, it's clear that Khan's hold over his people is slipping by the end, and they can all see that his obsession with Kirk is going to lead to their deaths.

More than that, WoK isn't just about a revenge plot to fill the runtime. There's a rather blatant nod to Paradise Lost throughout the whole film, and it started that whole damn Moby Dick thing that other movies in the franchise would ape (including First Contact). Aging becomes a central theme, as does Kirk's unwillingness to face no-win situations or accept death.

2009 doesn't have anything like that going for it, and I defy you to find something that the movie is actually ABOUT. And no, I won't accept a plot synopsis.

>>53179614
>Misses the birth of his first born and is stuck on the bridge with Troi and Ro for the whole day

>>53186531

I wonder what Miles and Keiko were doing during 'Conundrum'

>>53186219
I liked the design. It suggested a completely different ship building philosophy and engineering history from the human-led Federation, for what is supposed to be an alien culture.

Given that Romulans do look just like humans with pointy ears, it helped to underline that they're not in any way human and fully alien.

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>>53186747

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>>53186400
>Khan lost a handful of minions and a sycophantic 'wife' after fucking up his 'Hurr I will tame this planet' attempt
>Nero lost his entire people and culture, along with the personal loss of his wife and unborn child, swiftly followed by being marooned in the distant past where he has no stake or purpose
>Surprised he's slightly more motivated than Khan.

2009 is about coping with loss. Kirk is shown processing the loss of his father, first by acting out as a kid and getting into fights in a bar, but then as channeling it into leadership and challenging himself to match his father's achievements as a tribute to him.

Nero is shown the opposite, he goes from being a (presumably) well adjusted man who has a wife and child, plus a trusted position amongst his people, but after suffering a great loss, finds himself unable to move past it and is consumed utterly by the desire to balance the cosmic scales. In the end, he's shown as just as self-destructive as Kirk was at the beginning of the movie, when he refuses to allow the Enterprise to save him or his crew, prefering instead destructive spite, much like Kirk's destruction of his step father's car.

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>>53186944
Which, again, is very Romulan. Which is part of why I still like 2009 Star Trek: It finally gave us Romulan villains, in a way that Nemesis implied it would but failed to deliver on.

Although at least Nemesis gave my my personal favorite variant of the Romulan insignia.

>>53186944

Alright. But what about the rest of the movie? In WoK, the Genesis device represents humanity's godlike ability to create and to destroy, and Khan is our lesser nature, while Kirk is our better.

I'm glad you found something more in 2009, don't get me wrong, but let's dig deeper.

>>53186983

Nemesis is legitimately the worst Trek film. I'd rather watch Motionless Picture and Final Frontier again than Nemesis.

>>53186944
If I recall correctly, the Narada is supposed to be a kind of physical reflection of Nero's twisted psyche.

Also, salvaged Borg bullshit tech (thanks, Tal Shiar).

>>53186944
>2009 is about coping with loss.
Yes, but mostly on the audience's part, as they are forced to come to terms with the death of Star Trek.

>>53187019
>If I recall correctly, the Narada is supposed to be a kind of physical reflection of Nero's twisted psyche.
Those shadow things that eat people in Doctor Who?

>>53187117
>Those shadow things that eat people in Doctor Who?
As good an explanation for the appearance of his ship as any.

>>53149030
Hey there, my planet recently achieved warp travel after a great war which led to about 30% of our population dying. Now that we have everything figured out, we wen't to space, estabished colonies, fought a war and gained a new species. And we saw this entity called the "Federation" which is really appealing. How can we join them?

>>53187017
>Nemesis is legitimately the worst Trek film

It's pretty far down there, but I'll rate Insurrection and Slow-Motion as worse, because they're boring. The absolute worst sin a movie an commit is be boring

I actually unironically enjoy Final Frontier. Don't get me wrong, it's a stupid, stupid movie, but once you get past that it's actually really fun, and it does have three legitimately fantastic scenes in it: the opening camping scene, the "I NEED my pain" scene (when we learn how McCoy euthanized his own father, and Spock has never really gotten over his father's initial disappointment in him), and the closing camping scene. For those three scenes alone I rated it as 10 of 14 in my list here, >>53185474

> Kirk: "All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer by."
>McCoy: Melville.
>Spock: John Masefield.
>McCoy: Are you sure about that?
>Spock: I am well-versed in the classics, Doctor.
>McCoy: Then how come you don't know "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"?

>>53187219
What do we do. We are very militarized, and we are a monarchy. It is not like we are some theocracy, and the rights of the common man are not suppressed.

>>53187223

I don't think Slow Motion is worse than Nemesis. It's dumb and indeed pretty boring, but it has some ideas behind its glacial plot. Nemesis has nothing, except an action scene or two (which I don't think is enough to prevent Nemesis from being boring).

Insurrection is on par with Final Frontier in my mind due to the fact that they're largely representative of the series they came from. Insurrection is a bad episode of TNG, and Final Frontier is a bad episode of TOS.

Like you, I also enjoy bits of FF. I'm glad that Kelly and Nimoy were firm in that they weren't going to have Spock and McCoy turn against Kirk, because the plot is better for it. Loyalty to your friends in the here and now is more important than the empty promises of false prophets.

>>53187219

1. Submit a formal application to the Federation Council.

2. The Federation has certain standards and ethics it requires its members to meet. Federation inspectors will come to your planet to ensure you meet them. Please give them your full cooperation.

3. The Federation Council votes as to whether or not to allow your world membership. If the vote passes, you are in.

>>53187314
We have already done that
>>53187306
We are very developed, and are in a peaceful confederation wit three species given equal rights We are a technocratic feudalistic society.
Okay then. We are planning a referendum, but the Emperor will get a say after the people are fully accounted for. This includes xenos.

I cannot remember the plots of nemesis or insurrection. Which one has the federation shove a bunch of hippies into a holo-concentration camp?

Shit I think:

>Klingons had a bunch of preserver seeded worlds, because I think there being non human preserver worlds is cool, gives some options to break up the mono culture, and explains how the fuck they have a high enough population to be a Klingon Empire.

>There were Preserver worlds seeded from Vulcan--90% of them blew themselves the fuck up.

Shit I want:

> Stories on Pre reformation Vulcans

>A Mirror-verse where Surak didn't succeed as well, and there's a Vulcan Empire who are best frenemies with the Klingon empire

>>53187382
insurrection, nemesis is the one with a young picard that's in control of the romulans

>>53187521
And which one has that fucking retarded dune buggy?


Good trek movie WHEN

>>53187521
>>53187536

Same one with Clone Picard/Bane/Mad Max.

>>53187536

Two years.

Kirk meeting his mirror universe dad will be Trekino.

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>>53187573
I sincerely hope his dad is as much of a rampant bisexual as everyone else in the mirror universe.

>>53184208
>>53184308
>Kirk lies on his official report
>Spock grasses
>He gets chewed up for breaking the prime directive
>Gets the Enterprise taken off him
>And then he immediately gets it back after Khan start's throwing his shit at everyone.
fucking s i g h

>>53184112
>If I told you the truth about what Admiral Marcus was planning, would you die?

>>53187621

I know he's supposed to be a different Kirk and all (or the fans of the reboots keep shouting at me), but it's never been clearer with this. He lied.

OG Kirk wouldn't have. He'd have justified his decision and stood by it. Kirk speech if necessary.

>>53187621
Although having said that the opening scene of Into Darkness on Planet Nibiru itself is great.

Personally I like that the JJPrise can enter atmosphere and even water. The Constitution is meant to be a deep-space exploration vessel operating weeks, months, or even years from the nearest starbase, after all, so an ability to function in unusual environments - if for no other reason than to serve as a life raft and shelter in case of dire emergency - makes perfect sense to me.

>>53187647
It would be very painful.

>>53187690

Well, I can't say for certain about water, but the original Enterprise can and did enter atmosphere.

And before you snark and make a snide comment about SFS, I meant during TOS.

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>>53187726
No, I remember, but a lot of Trek fans tend to forget.

You must understand, my favorite episode of TOS is "A Piece of the Action". I am not a typical Trekkie.

>>53184438
Well I mean, if it was gonna be prime timeline, they'd have to establish TNG setting, then explain VOY and the Dominion War, and THEN introduce the new plot, while still dumbing it down for normies. Since it was a reboot, it had to be that jam-packed; if nothing else, it allows the more hardcore fans to quarantine all of the cancerous community into the Kelvin Timeline.

>>53187739

Me neither, my melanin enriched brother. That spoiler was more of a general statement, than directed specifically at you.

My favorite is Arena.

>>53185474
I fucking hated those space Luddites.
>tfw if I were captain and had just found out the truth of what we were doing there, I'd have suggested launching a torpedo at their greedy squatting ass settlement.
Show them how much their backwards retarded culture is worth when the needs of the many come to steamroll their ass from out of reach.

>>53185474
First Contact, thematically, is a shit TNG film but would make a good DS9 film. Thematically. It's a damn good one overall though.

>Implying #12 wasn't The One With The Big Guy

>>53187879
Why did they never make a film with the sisko anyway?

>>53187879

B4 you

>>53187910
Because DS9 was the red-headed stepchild of the franchise.

>>53187910

Deep Space 9 was less popular with the casual fans/regular TV audience. And the series wrapped up pretty much all of its plot threads.

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>>53187546
Shinzon?

>>53187823
You know, if the stretchy-faces had just said that they were some rebel faction with the leaders forcing everyone else to stay simple-minded, the whole first half of the movie with the holo ship and everything wouldn't have needed to happen. Sure, we would have had the typical reveal that the bad guys were actually bad guys, but it would have made the whole evil-admiral issue not exist, and would have been a lot closer to the Elongated Typical TNG Episode thing they were going for.

>>53185569
I really, really wanna see this now.

>>53186090
No, because many Bad Things (TM) happen to non-protagonists doing things that exciting

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>>53187972
Doctor Crusher, I'm UFP.

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>>53187780
>My favorite is Arena.

>>53187739
>my favorite episode of TOS is "A Piece of the Action"

The Doomsday Machine. I love the interplay between the characters and Decker in that episode. It really illustrates what Spock, Kirk and even Bones are about (despite the latter having a limited part). Spock knows what's best and tries to disregard Decker's disastrous plan, but follows regulations to the letter once he overrules him and assumes command, at least until Kirk gets in contact and says "fuck this shit, take charge on my authority".

>>53187780
Oh God yes, Arena is great. Patrician taste, mi amici.

>>53187823
Okay, I hate the Luddites too, but that's not very Federation of you. The correct response is actually to just remember that the Luddites have an ENTIRE PLANET while there's only like 300 of them max, and so you can afford to set up Space Club Med somewhere else without ever doing harm to their culture, while at the same time working to make them realize that they're being incredibly selfish. And then the Son'a try to do things the fast way and you protect the Luddites from the Son'a still. A minor change, but it's still workable as a good story, if not necessarily grand enough to make for a good movie.

Incidentally, if you want to see how to do Space Luddites right (and funny), it's the Irish in "Up the Long Ladder".

>"Helloo thair, boyo! Come and have a drink!"
"Huh, where's all your technology?"
>"Ah, g'wan outta that. We keep things plain and simple 'round 'ere."
"Fair enough, but your star is about to explode and you'll all die."
>"JAYSUS, Mary, and Joseph! That's no good 'tall, so it isn't."
"We can give you a ride to a new planet, if you like."
>"Much obliged there, boyo - yer a scholar and a gentleman. But we'll be needin' to bring our animals, of course. Still want to live the simple life once we get there."
"We can do that."
>"Roight. Now about that drink..."

Basically the Irish in that episode were Space Luddites because they preferred living that way, but weren't so attached to it that they were willing to let themselves get wiped out and were more than happy to accept help from more technologically able folk when offered and needed.

>>53187696
>You're an augmented guy.

I wonder what would have happened if they had the budget for the little psychic ayy lmaos instead of literally humans.

>>53187910
>>53187934
>>53187940
This. TNG was the only one really left open-ended, and even by the end of Nemesis everyone was getting assigned elsewhere,

>>53188015

Such a good episode. I recently watched the remaster, and was impressed with the detail they put into Constellation.

>>53187993
FIRST ONE TO TALK GETS TO TALK FIRST STAY ON MY SHUTTLECRAFT!

>>53185569
>>53187988
Come to think of it, the entirety of Beyond was much improved by pretending it was the original cast doing everything.

>>53185500
I just now realized how Macross that is.

>>53188110
Well, obviously, though I feel this is actually easiest with Beyond - everyone feels absolutely in character throughout it. Pine finally having a proper Kirk haircut helps.

And Karl Urban IS DeForrest Kelly.

>>53183968
maintenance, possibly? looks like it can be revolved into the superstructure

also since they're trying to create a bubble... maybe it's more stable, or they believe logically it must be more stable, than the Phoenix-derived twin-nacelle variants the humans build?

or maybe it's just aesthetic

>>53188233
One of the few things NuTrek absolutely nailed was the casting for the main three.

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>>53188089

>>53188291
>Logic dictates that the conflagration will ascend.

>>53187910
Because Berman hated it, simple as that. That's why the Defiant got its shit pushed in, that's why they barely mentioned the war in Insurrection or Nemesis, that's why fucking Janeway got a promotion and cameo when the DS9 characters got nothing, that's why they came up with more and more retarded excuses to have Worf show up, that's why Worf just stuck with his TNG personality instead of carrying on any of the development he had in DS9.

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>>53188260

There was this theory.

>>53188233
>And Karl Urban IS DeForrest Kelly.

I feel like he spent hours and hours perfecting his Bones impersonation before ST 2009, only to show up on the first day of filming and discover no one else had bothered and was just going to do 'their own intepretation of the character'. Credit to him.

>>53188313
>things Berman thought were bad
DS9

>things Berman thought were good
The finalie of Enterprise

>>53188324
That refit looks so much better than the actual ship.

>>53188331
yeah, Urban did a really good job, specially in Beyond. There were moments when I thought I was seeing Kelly

>>53188260
Going by Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures, with a warp ring you get power and efficiency at the cost of flexibility - they're not as easy to adjust in-flight. I'm not quite sure what Tobin Dax (the guy who says it) means by this, but other sources hold that Vulcan ships are not as good at warp maneuvering - i.e., they suck at turns. I think they're also harder to modify

The Cochrane-style outrigger nacelle design is basically the Mario of warp field generation. It's not the best at anything, but it's good enough at everything that a weakness in one area is more than made up for with strengths in others.

File: 14705978078.png (876KB, 1281x529px) Image search: [Google]

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Are phasers better as pulses or beams /stg/?

>>53188382
In particular I assume the Transporter scene. The whole thing from beginning to end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIO7Yysb3cc

Start from 2:03

>"I'M A DOCTOR, NOT A FU - "

>>53188389
pulses are (should) be better at point defense and against a great number of targets (like when the enterprise shoots down nero's missiles)

beams are good for when you need more power on a more specific target, seeing that they have way better accuracy in comparison with pulses

And pulses only appeared in nutrek in a more widespread fashion because fagbrams wanted star wars feel

>>53188324
What if they did that to the Akira?

>>53188284
>One of the few things NuTrek absolutely nailed was the casting for the main three.
I disagree. Don't get me wrong, Urban is fantastic. He absolutely knocks it out of the park as a young Bones. Quinto does a good (if somewhat boring) Vulcan, but doesn't really capture Spock, I don't think. Spock had style and wit. He wasn't just a monotone logic drone. But Quinto had to work with the script he was given and gives a solid (if rather boring) performances, so my opinion on him is neutral.

But I cannot stand Pine's Kirk. I fucking hate that cock-knocker -- absolute despise the fucker. Granted, Pine had to portray the character as he was written, and following in Shatner's steps has got to be incredibly difficult under the best of circumstances, so maybe it's mostly not Pine's fault, but the end result was objectionable. I found myself actually getting angry when he was on the screen, kind of like I did with Jar Jar Binx in the Star Wars prequels.

>>53188444
They had pulses in Wrath of Khan too, don't get your shit in a twist.

>>53188515
those were rapid firing beams, not pulses, they were way too big to be pulses

>>53188515
To be fair to that anon's rage, the phaser cannons on the Reliant are actually pulse cannons similar to the Defiant.

>>53188550
They use phasers like depth charges in "Balance of Terror". Don't even ask me how, I have no idea.

>>53188497
>kind of like I did with Jar Jar Binx in the Star Wars prequels.

I never understood the rage at Jar Jar. And in particular with all the evidence mounting that he was supposed to be a major antagonist that was simply acting foolish and weak in Episode I, I really regret how much Lucas had to change.

(I doubt Jar Jar was intended to be the main antagonist or anything, but...well, Lucas is a fan of Japanese storytelling, and a big recurring trope in Japanese storytelling is "clownish/weak-seeming character who you don't take seriously at first glance but who is actually generally the most dangerous person in the room")

>>53188515
and I said more widespread, not exclusively you fucking asshole

Why didn't they detonate photon torpedoes in the middle of the swarm like some sort of flak gun instead of trying to hit a single ship?

>>53188291
Ok, I kek'd at this

>>53188497
>Quinto does a good (if somewhat boring) Vulcan, but doesn't really capture Spock, I don't think. Spock had style and wit.

I agree with this. I think it's more the writing than the actor really, Spock in TOS was written with more sarcasm and witty come-backs to Bones and Kirk making fun of him, Quinto's Spock is very much the straight man in most cases, the butt of the joke and rarely shows the same self-awareness that Nimoy's Spock did.

>>53188497
>>One of the few things NuTrek absolutely nailed was the casting for the main three.
>I disagree.
>proceeds to list things that have nothing to do with the casting

>>53188389
>>53188557
Beams > NuTrek Pulses >>>>>Defiant Pulses
I mean, I get that the sfx weren't anywhere near where they were now, but god fucking dammit I hated how the defiant was a fucking spitfire in every combat scene we saw.

>>53188869
beams are good against bigger targets in smaller number, while pulses are good for lots of small ones, defiant pulses are dogshit and useless against everything tho

>>53188841
>proceeds to list things that have nothing to do with the casting
I'm conceding that at least some of the problems can be attributed to the scripts, but with portrayals that were middling to objectionable for two out of the three characters in question, I think it's a bit difficult to say the casting for them was great. Maybe they would've rocked with better writing, but that's just conjecture. Even if it's not their fault they weren't better, they still weren't better, so there really isn't any evidence of their greatness. Except for Urban, of course.

>>53188944

I wonder if the pulses were designed so every pulse could have a different frequency to overwhelm borg adaptions.

>>53189014
I wouldn't be surprised if they did, seeing that the defiant was designed specially for the borg

So janeway got promoted to admiral, but the enterprise couldn't be retrofitted with transphasic torpedoes for Nemesis?

>>53188632
>They use phasers like depth charges in "Balance of Terror". Don't even ask me how, I have no idea.

Pretty sure they'd not even come up with photon torpedoes as a thing by the point that episode was made.

>>53189075
Time cops stole them back.

>>53189122
Fucking time cops ruining everything

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Hey guys, what would you do with this beauty here?

http://www.starbase400.org/avalon/starship-excalibur.htm

>>53189122
>Time cops stole them back.
Yet strangely gave zero shits when Nero took a buch of Borg bullshit back in time.

>>53183968
>I wonder what the benefits are to a nacelle ring
It's a simpler solution to the Alcubierre geometry IRL. It was done as a way to make the Vulcan ships seem more sciencey but also primitive in a way.

>>53189595
I think it mostly shows how each race used different means for the same end, and each ones pros and cons like some anon above said

>>53189503
Nero fell through a black hole. Temporal Investigations considered the matter closed.

>>53189075
they sound like they're good at penetrating shields and armor, which is anti-borg

not a huge amount of help against a cloaked ship

which borg don't do because....?

>>53188944
Defiant pulses pew pew purple cyclon raiders pew pew pew *cut to the bridge, someone says something trite in a deep voice and there's a musical sting* pew pew pew pew pew pew *cut to the station, Garak is fellating Julian while Julian has a nice chat about cricket with Quark* cut to Defiant pew pew pew pew pew pew *pitiable dialogue, mild tension broken as the Klingons turn up* pew pew pew pew "let's fuck some changelings up bro" pew pew *cut to the station, Jake has been trying to decide which waistcoat to wear for the last four hours* pew pew pew *Dukat's false mustache falls off*

>>53189988
but Shinzon's ship was uncloaked for extended periods of time, in which even a single torpedo would have destroyed it easily

And I'm not saying that the Enterprise should've gotten the torpedoes only for that specific mission, seeing that even a single one of those torpedoes could destroy anything short of a Voth city ship

Now that I think about it, the voth could easily shit on the borg if they wanted, but the consequences would've been catastrophic for everyone if one of their ships got assimilated in the process

>>53189988
the borg probably doesn't use cloaking devices for the same reason they always only send a single ship at a time, they want to test their foes capabilities, and they can't do it if they're cloaked

>>53190055
i don't know

maybe Scimitar benefited from being four or five times the mass of the Enterprise and likely an order of magnitude larger in power output with dedicated defensive systems instead of relying on being a giant space cube with distributed systems that can basically ignore all but crippling damage by re-routing the teryaki EPS adjuntants

i mean borg vessels explode when you target waste processing, so who even knows what transphasic torpedoes really are best for

>>53190224
>all of borg civilization is simply a homage to kung fu movies

yes

yessss

>>53190233
well, the idea behind a transphasic torpedo is that it changes phase so it can travel through the shields and armor, and then "materialize" itself inside the ship to detonate

this would probably be really bad even for the Scimitar

>>53190224
and adding to that, In one instance in beta canon the borg got tired of all that bullshit and sent an actual kill fleet to wreck the alpha quadrant, that fleet had more than 7000 ships and almost accomplished its mission

>>53190314
Here: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_Invasion_of_2381

If you were in command of the Borg, how would you tackle the task of assimilating mostly everything in the milky way?

>>53190462
Mass-produce a shit-ton of probes with cloaking devices and torpedo launchers. The torpedoes would be fitted with biogenic charges containing nanoprobe viruses capable of assimilating species through the atmosphere. Then just disperse the aforementioned probes all over the place.

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