Can an Imperial Guard wield a Bolter?

Wouldn't it rip their arm off?

>>53125956
Yes, there are Guard versions that are smaller than the space marine ines, you used see Imperial Guard officer models equipped with them.

>>53125956
Well if FFG rules are anything to go off, a normal human can but with great difficulty thus making it either impossible to aim or imosssible to fire more than a single shot at a time.

>>53125982
You also can give them to inquisitorial acolytes, so yeah no, normal humans can definitely wield bolters.

>>53125965
I mean, it launches a gyrojet rocket assisted by a minute propellant detonation that only needs to propel the thing a short distance. There should be little actual recoil felt by the shooter. Arguably it might be easier to handle than a real-world automatic rifle (assuming we design it to not look like it was made by a toy company and actually fit in a person's hand).

>>53126016
Ah, but it gets around the gyrojet problem (that it needs space to speed up, and is thus slow as fuck coming out the barrel) by having a launching charge that works like any other gun.

However as >>53125982 and >>53126000 mention, you can get bolters designed for human use

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>>53125956

Boltguns and bolt pistols have been wargear options for officers since forever.

>>53126102
I want veteran squads armed with bolters GW pls

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>>53126071
I imagine those modifications are to downscale the rest of the gun, even at .75 there can't be that much powder in this fucker.

>>53125956
Yes, we saw many times
Which is more funny, we saw them wield them with one had, yet marines are mostly depicted wielding them with both hands, arent Astarters like dozen times stronger?

>>53126113

inquisitorial storm troopers can take bolters instead of hot-shot lasguns if I recall correctly

>>53125956
>Can an Imperial Guard wield a Bolter?
Don't IG officers have the option to take bolters and boltpistols if they want to?

Yeah, it's no problem.

>>53125965
>Wouldn't it rip their arm off?
Why? It's a gyrojet weapon. It shouldn't have that much recoil. And the (presumably ridiculous) weight of it should do a great deal to compensate for that as well.

>>53126102
Hell, there's even that one Catachan that carries a heavy bolter like a rifle.

Like many things in 40k, bolters can or can't be used by normal people depending on how the individual author feels at the time

>Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket.[10d] Normal humans found to be in possession of even a single Astartes bolt round, much less a boltgun, can expect a swift justice for their crimes.[10a]

>>53126102
>>53126162
Point being... there are many, many examples in the fluff of humans using bolters. /thread

The sisters of battle do, so why wouldn't guard?

>>53126299
The guard don't have ability-enhancing power armor?

Though as we've noted above the guard do in fact also use them.

>>53126279
Catachans didn't get the nickname "baby ogryns" from nowhere you know

>>53126119
Yeah, it's probably not easy

>>53126016
well, its more like a traditional bullet and casing, that also happens to be a gyrojet, so instead of slowing down it just speeds up and flys straight with no ballistic arc (until it is out of its tiny supply of fuel. then its back it arc)

>>53125965
not really, since it has a rocket to carry the bolt towards the target, it does not need much energy to shoot the bolt, so it probably has the same recoil of normal gun
>>53125956
as a guard player who gives bolters to his officers, yes they can, even if my guess they use a smaller pattern, as an astartes type of bolter would be a nightmare to carry around all day long

>>53126262
>It's a gyrojet weapon
technically not

bolters have an initital charge, which is presumably to cover the main downside of gyrojet weapons

>>53126294
Those citations are from dark heresy, which kinda just made that up wholesale.

>>53126123
>>53126279


Normal Humans<Space Marines<Catachans

>>53126309
Astartes-scale bolters look like they weigh something to the order of 40kg so I'm sure that doesn't help, but the round is probably no less harsh than a 10ga shotgun. Get a stock with decent recoil compensation (like certain real-world automatic shotguns do) and you're probably not feeling most of that unless you unload the whole magazine in one go.

>>53126320
>>53126310
Still, it uses less shot than a traditional .75 bullet would by the simple merit that the rocket takes up more space than a bullet would in a similarly designed casing, which is shown in the diagram above ( >>53126119 ).

Given a 10ga shotgun's barrel is gonna be approximately .775", firing a solid slug from one is a pretty close approximation for how much kick this thing could have at best, and even then it should be scaled back to indicate the reduced propellant due to it only needing enough charge to accelerate it to the speed needed for the rocket to take over.

>>53126431
Oh, absolutely.

>>53125956
Bolt Gun = Hand-held Auto-Cannon.
basically.

Have you ever played dark heresy?
Normal acolytes are able to wield human sized bolters

Scratch that, don't commissars carry bolters?

>>53126639
Bolt pistols, but yes.

>>53125956
yes but barely.

the initial charge is just enough to get the round out of the barrel so the rocket can kick in, by that point the force is no longer exerted on the user. so the recoil wont be much of an issue

the real issue is that:
A: bolters are scaled to the size of an astartes, being that they are much bigger than normal humans, so a guardsman would have a really tough time handling it.

B: Bolter isnt just a gun, it has an assortment of technology in it that allows an Astartes to use it efficiently. The sight is cosmetic as the reticle is uploaded to the astartes helmet so he can see were it is pointing in real time. Mix that with the assorment of other sensors, weight of the rounds, and weight of all the cosmetics, and you have a really heavy gun. A 50 pound gun would mean nothing to a space marine, but to a guardsman it is impractical to use on the battlefield.


>>53126557
wrong, autocannon is a much bigger round

>>53126431
these are not equatable. While a 10 gauge is technically the same barrel size (or just about) you may not experience the same amount of recoil.

10 gauge slugs are typically ~1 and 3/4 oz in weight and have a muzzel exit velocity of about 390.144 m/s.KE = 1/2 (M * (V * V)) so KE of an average 10 gauge slug is about 3726.45 joules of energy, which is a good amount. However, it can be assumed that bolts are a lot heavier that slugs, massively so. Quickly we can see by this relationship that as the round weight increases so will the force increase in a linear relationship.

>>53126693
What about the human sized bolter

>>53126557
No, the cannons start at 20mm. At least that's the commonly accepted arbitrary starting point.

>>53126377
Huh, thinking about it, I can't recall the last time I saw a marine use a bolter with a stock - you can just see captain catachan over here >>53126102 is, but marines don't need it.

>>53126715
Human sized bolter is only FFG stuff from what I remember. Both humans and Astartes use Godwyn pattern bolters in the models so I assume canonically there is no difference.

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>>53126715
is the gun caliber the same? you run into the same problem

Bolts are big rounds filled with dense materials and rocket propellants, and that propellant is only spent after it leaves the gun. Also all artists depictions of bolts that I have seen show the bullet itself being a lot bigger in comparison to the caseing than conventional munitions. Pic related is a 20mm round which is a little bigger than .75 cal, as you can see the bullet is a lot smaller in size compared to the caseing, bolts are not like this.

this is hypothetical since we do not have the exact weight characteristic of the bolt, but I would assume, given the fact that bolts are filled with all sorts of materials to promote armour penetration, are filled with explosives, and are filled with rocket propellent, they must be a lot heavier than conventional rounds, and therefore would produce a lot more force.

>>53126770
>>53126693
>anon uses science and math explain his point rather than theory craft
>on /tg

thought I would never see the day.

>>53126770
That once again leads us to another problem, though. That's to assume we need to produce enough force to launch the projectile fast enough to travel at the speeds needed to cover dozens or even hundred of meters. That's a lot more force than "just enough to get the round clear of the barrel", as sited in the description of how bolt ammunition works.

>>53126812
how much is enough to leave the barrel? 50 m/s, 100m/s? 200m/s?

these are all incredibly slow in terms of ballistics

I once read that a space marine could fire his bolter from a mile away when an ork boy jumped out of a truck, and hit him before he hit the ground.

a bullet would need considerable speed throughout to accomplish this

>>53126925
Space Marines can also eat brains to absorb memories. So don't expect that much scientific accuracy.

>>53126965
>Needing the brain

>>53125956
An astartes pattern?

Once.

>>53126925
That's an extreme outlier.

Enough to leave the barrel would be about 50-100 m/s, but bolters are usually considered supersonic, which is about 350 m/s.

Obviously.

If you mean an Astartes Pattern bolter then most likely no.

>>53126925
Well considering how marines often are depicted firing their bolters at very close range, due to their nature as shock assault units, and that bolters are required to function at these very close ranges I think we can assume that the propellant charge is designed to do alot more then simply keeping the gyrojet in the air until ignition

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>>53127113
so lets say 100 m/s

how much do you think a bolt weighs? the 20mm bullet in this pic >>53126770 weighs 130 grams and is a lot smaller than the caseing, and if we look at pic related, which is an average bolt, we can see that the bullet is actually bigger than the caseing. It has admamantium in it and depleted uranium, which are both really dense, and has an explosive charge.

it would be totally within the realm of possibility that this bolt, while being the same size as the 20mm package, is heavier than the 20mm, maybe even by so much as 200%.

so lets say that the bolt was 300 grams and leaves the barrel going 656 feet per second, which in terms of ballistics is really slow, airsoft guns can beat this, this still produces an initial energy of about ~7000 joules upon the user, which is 5162.935 foot pounds of energy.

there is no way a guardsman could be effective with a bolter, even on the lower end of the numbers


>>53127230
exactly, there is no way the bolt leaves the barrel only going 200 m/s

>>53127246
correction, mean to say 200m/s on the first line

>>53127246
>there is no way a guardsman could be effective with a bolter

And yet, we have definite examples of at least some being able to. Therefore, there's either something awry with your calculations or the setting doesn't bother with scientific consistency.

I think I know which one it is.

>>53127281
obviously the latter

but is there even examples of guardsman being effective with bolters and not just using them? there is a difference

Daily reminder that 30k era bolters come in .70, .60 and even in .50 calibers.

>>53127229
>Astartes Pattern

What's that? I mean, you see the same pattern bolters on IG and SM.

Are we even supposed to let loose on shit like bolters with hard science?

The same fictional universe that produced the bolter also produced semi-psychic fungus men and a magical hell dimension. Maybe scientific accuracy is not as important as a spectacular rule of cool here.

Just maybe.

>>53127303
no you dont, Marines and humans use very different sizes of bolters.

this isnt reflected in the TT at all, but then again what is?

>>53127314
Is it reflected in any of the Codexes or only in the FFG fluff?

>>53127324
only ever in fluff, the tabletop doesnt distinguish between it in any form.

But I am quite sure there are mentions of differances in various codices

>>53127324
Yes, Rogue Trader corebook, page 121, specifies the Locke- pattern requiem you can use in the game is a downscaled version of Astartes bolters.

>>53127314
So what is that Godwyn pattern bolter the Catachan officer is using, if not a Godwyn pattern bolter? What are the bolters on old IG models if not the same bolters found on Marines?

All the references to Marines having massive bolters compared to non-Marines I can find are in FFG books.

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>>53127246
But what you're not accounting for how the recoil is dispersed. An all-at-once shock that is crippling could be harmless if it is spread out over 6 or 10x the time.

This is how modern grenade launchers can throw a ~150g projectile at ~75 m/s - they slow down the combustion. A internal recoil system in the gun can do the same thing.

.75 cal is 19.5mm. A 40mm grenade is twice the diameter = 8x the volume.

So even accounting for super-dense materials (since a bolt punches through armor by being hard and fast, not a shaped charge) it's probably closer to ammo from a modern human-portable 20mm x 42mm like the Denel PAWS.

>>53125956
If I remember, one of the lore books basically explains (and FFG ran with it) that the Astartes Bolters are chambered in .998 caliber Godwyn while the IG bolters carried by officers and commissars are in the .50 to .75 range so your wrists don't explode.

>>53127374
Well lesse, according to lexicanum the 4th edition marine dex refers to the Astartes Godwyn pattern.

That would be a good indicator, also something called an Index Astartes mentions how normal humans would have great difficulty managing the recoil of bolters from ”space marine forges”. Again implying that there is a seperation

>>53127427
>. A 40mm grenade is twice the diameter = 8x the volume.

irrelevant, grenades are not filled with depleted uranium and adamantium, which is what makes bolts heavy

in fact your graph betrays you, since if we looks at the ballistic range and muzzle velocity of that 40mm grenades, we can see that it only has a muzzle velocity of 76 m/s. The equation for kenetic energy is 1/2 mv^2, so the more you increase the velocity, the more the energy will increase EXPONENTIALLY. this is the key, which is why the grenade launcher in your picture, when fired at a perct 45 degree angle, can only travel 600m at most.

We have to assume that bolters have a much higher initial muzzle velocity due to the fact that space marines will use that at extremely close ranges, due to the fact that they will employ shock tactics. In fact, the bolt, including the case could be even heavier, since we were only accounting for the bullet in the previous calculations.

and even if we take into account that a bolter has a recoil system, that adds even more weight to the gun, making it even less effective for a human to use.

you cannot compare the bolt to this chart, since the grenade and bolt behave in totally separate ways.

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>>53127480
>4th edition marine dex

Where, exactly?

>Index Astartes

You got a more precise quote or page number, Index Astartes isn't something you can just browse through quickly.

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>>53127451
No such lore exists, see >>53127678

Also, FW gives Tigrus bolter's caliber as .60 and Phobos bolter's as .70.

>>53127678
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Boltgun

Citations. Have fun

>>53127842
>19: Index Astartes III, pg. 58
>entire page is just about the history of the Land Raider

The words "lexicanum" and "wiki" should autoban anyone who tries to post them.

>>53126741
>marines don't need it.
Power armor is more than capable of compensating the weapon recoil, they don't need a stock unless they are in scout armor.

>>53128016
>stocks exist only to compensate for recoil

>>53125956
Yes but gimped, smaller caliber shitty ones only for veterans and command.
>>53126262
>>53126312
Munitorum by GW states that marine bolter kills or injures non augmented humans.

>>53128169
that could just be propoganda though to scare ig from not wasting bolts and using a holy bolter

see all of these anons posts

>>53126693
>>53126770
>>53127246
>>53127543

>>53126294
Thats an astartes boltgun. Im pretty sure there are several instances in the FFG RPGs where astartes have different gear than the humans, because they need to be bigger to fit their larger size. So an astartes boltgun is larger and more powerful, and a normal person couldnt possibly weild it as well as they could, but there are normal human sized ones in the books.

>>53128220
Sisters of battle use different smaller Deaz pattern bolters, and they have power armor, these models are old as fuck and don't represent modern lore.

>>53128273
ya but its smaller

whats your point?

>>53128169
>Munitorum by GW states that marine bolter kills or injures non augmented humans.

It also says plasma guns can only be reloaded by a techpriest with hours of chanting and careful operations, and volcano cannons are made with crystallized heretics.

>>53128350
Marine bolters don't equal guardsman bolters.

>>53128374
Both are true for 40k. Plasma weapons are rare and dangerous.

>>53128375
if im not mistaken, the conversation was if guardsman could use space marine bolters, not if they could use bolters period.

>>53128390
>Plasma weapons are rare

So why is it that they're found everywhere, from the favored weapon of mass infantry regiments to the scum of underhive gangs?

>dangerous.

Anon, so you know the logistics of needing a techpriest and hours of time to reload each plasma gun after its 10 round flask runs dry?

>>53125956
Yes but not an astartes supersized one, that would require powerarmor or cybernetics.

Someone post an inquisitorial bolter.
I'M GOING TO HAVE TO SHOOT YOU WITH MY GUN!
MY INQUISITORIAL GUN!

>>53128427
>So why is it that they're found everywhere
Its not. its rarer than bolt weapons.
>scum of underhive gangs?
You mean Necromunda which is known for producing high tech weapons?

>>53128427
Rare for 40k means that there are only billions of plasma weapons out there compared to the infinity bajillion lasguns.

>>53126723
Ah, and bolters are "only" 19mm

>>53128514
>Its not. its rarer than bolt weapons.

So explain to me why bolters are rare as fuck and limited to high ranking IG officers, while plasma guns are standard issue special weapons.

>known for producing high tech weapons?

Do provide a source, because all I can find says it's a massive industrial world, not that it's particularly high tech. I also don't see where it says it produced plasma weapons in such numbers that underhive gangs can get their hands on them in numbers. Mostly they seem to produce pretty mundane weapons, lasguns and such.

>>53128518
By that metric every gun that's not a lasgun is rare.

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Here's a modern 20mm cannon for scale.

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>>53128961

>>53128983
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu87AxzBf3Y

What does semi-selective fire mean in this context?

>>53129044
It's somewhat selective, but not fully selective.

>>53129003
I didn't realize the whole front of the gun recoils back. I was looking at him firing it and thought "that looks weird."

>>53128602
>while plasma guns are standard issue special weapons.
Because they are dangerous and kill users, and specialized against armored targets.

>Do provide a source, because all I can find says it's a massive industrial world, not that it's particularly high tech.
It has crap ton of archeotech lying around in underhive, its also one of oldest and most populated hives.

>>53125956
Yes, there just aren't enough bolters to go around. So certain units can get the option but it will never be universal just because the resources don't exist.

>>53129147
>Because they are dangerous and kill users, and specialized against armored targets.

You forgot "rarer than bolters."

>It has crap ton of archeotech lying around in underhive,

So all the plasma guns gangers use are not actually made there, but salvaged from the depths of the underhive?

>its also one of oldest and most populated hives.

Which equates to loads of plasma guns... how?

>>53126693
>B: Bolter isnt just a gun, it has an assortment of technology in it that allows an Astartes to use it efficiently. The sight is cosmetic as the reticle is uploaded to the astartes helmet so he can see were it is pointing in real time. Mix that with the assorment of other sensors, weight of the rounds, and weight of all the cosmetics, and you have a really heavy gun. A 50 pound gun would mean nothing to a space marine, but to a guardsman it is impractical to use on the battlefield.

Don't guardsman helmets have this same sort of thing?

>>53129265
im pretty sure they dont

>>53129219
>You forgot "rarer than bolters."
Bolters are standard issue weapons for gangers but described as rare and expensive.
Plasma is special weapon reserved only for gang leaders and elite.

>So all the plasma guns gangers use are not actually made there, but salvaged from the depths of the underhive?
Ask GW.

>Which equates to loads of plasma guns... how?
It has much more cool stuff than some shitty Meridian from Sector Bumfuck.

>>53129265
Depends on the guardsman.
From an advanced industrial world, yeah probably.

From a deathworld, probably not

>>53129282
Now that I look it up, it only seems that stormtroopers have that sort of surveyor thing, at least on the tabletop.

It doesn't really seem too hard to mass-produce such a thing.

>>53129356
a lot of things are not hard to mass produce, but thats not how the 40k industrial complex works

the manufacturing just make whatever the STC tells them to make, they just set up and maintain the machines and feed it resources. most of the time they do not understand how the process even works, they are just given the stc and told go for it

this is a great article on the matter, read the part about why everything is so grimdark

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus#Why_Everything_is_so_Grimdark

>inb4 id4chan

just read it then bitch later

>>53125985
What FFG rules are you talking about? The bolters you use in the games that aren't Deathwatch allow you to shoot as well as any other weapon.

>>53129693
Deathwatch itself says that there's bolters for SMs, and bolters for humans. Bolters for humans are just big heavy guns, bolters for SMs wielded by humans count as one size bigger, i.e. a bolt pistol counts as a bolter rifle for a human

>>53129809
Though all the FFG books say the same thing: Astartes Bolters are just more sophisticated than non-Astartes bolters with ergonomics better suited for power armour, and use .75 caliber bolts.

Astartes aren't that much bigger than the kind of guys you see at strongman contests.

>>53129931
lol wut?

>>53125956
>Spells Baal right in one instance
>Spells it wrong in another
Really gets those neurons firing

>>53129931
no, but they are wearing a massive mechanized suit which helps with carrying heavy things and absorbing shock

>>53125956
If you mean can a human pick up and use a space marine bolter, it is unknown from GW codices because that is never explored.
Just about every single other fluff bit, from BL to FFG, has it as being incredibly dangerous to impossible to use more than a space marine bolt pistol.

Sure they can, I always use them when I can get my hands on em in my Necromunda gangs.

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>>53126693

Kinetic energy has no direct relationship with recoil you sperg.
That's simple momentum and inertia.

>>53130944
>what is newtons third law

how can you be this fucking retarded, this is high school physics

>>53130972

Do you seriously think kinetic energy is used to calculate that?

>>53130944
>american education

every time

>>53126758

The SOB bolter is technically a variant of the Godwyn but that's mostly 'For human hands' as they don't have big meat mittens to hold them with rather than a less powerful gun.

>>53131018

KE is just a measure of the work done on an object.

>>53128237

>Thats an astartes boltgun. Im pretty sure there are several instances in the FFG RPGs where astartes have different gear than the humans, because they need to have bigger numbers because the FFG unnatural toughness ability was fucked.

Fixed that for you.

>>53130944
>>53131016
not him but seems satisfactory to me

the amount of energy that the bullet will exert on the target, minus the energy lost in variuous things such as expansion of the barrel and heat should be the amount of energy that is experienced by the user

>>53130972
>gondola attempting communication
can't meme correctly either, apparently

>>53131068

The user doesn't "experience" energy.
Jesus Christ that's the third person who doesn't understand this.
KE is just the work done on the projectile. In this case it is stored as chemical energy in the propellant until it is converted into KE upon detonation.
Recoil is momentum, and is lessened by inertia.
Force (which is completely different than KE) can be used to describe the feeling of how sharp the recoil is, but since that requires an exact knowledge of the time of the recoil impulse, it usually isn't used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil

>Recoil (often called knockback, kickback or simply kick) is the backward movement of a gun when it is discharged. In technical terms, the recoil momentum acquired by the gun exactly balances the forward momentum of the projectile and exhaust gases (ejecta), according to Newton's third law, known as conservation of momentum.

Its the very first sentence on wikipedia for fucks sake

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>>53128375
>>53128419
>>53128428
>>53130944
>>53131039
>>53131066
>>53130972


ITT : Huge faggot that need to read "Death World", or any guard codex.

Some catachan even wield fucking HEAVY BOLTER

>>53131039
>mostly 'For human hands' as they don't have big meat mittens to hold them

Where does it say this, because the Witch Hunter codex says the Godwyn-De'az is a superior weapon its its class and a symbol of the Sisters, not that it's down scaled for non-Marine hands.

>>53131164
Sure, but it's not an ASTARTES PATTERN BOLTER!™.

>>53131243
>>53131243
Its literraly the same size as the one on the dreadnought and devastator squad

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>>53125956
probably

>>53131272
As a safety mechanism, all ASTARTES PATTERN BOLTER!s™ are equipped with recoil enhancers, which multiply the felt recoil so that they're more dangerous than strapping a frag grenade to your junk and pulling the pin.

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>Not a hitscan weapon
>Heavy as hell
>Has a dual-firing system for gyorojet recoil.

>Requires actual ammunition
>Has breech and barrel open to the elements
>Contains a machine entity which takes exception to disrespectful treatment

>Cannot be rearmed by leaving it in the sun.
>Cannot be rearmed by throwing it in a fire
>Cannot be cleaned by shooting it.
>Cannot provide reach for a bayonet

>Would be buried in a trench by the thousands
>Would be stolen by ratlings or sold to GSC's
>Would run dry immediately under terrible fire discipline.

You want to give these to GUARDSMEN?

>>53131471
>Would run dry immediately under terrible fire discipline.
actually they're burst fire, pulse-rifle style

>>53131500
so you burst fire like 10 times and boom all ammo is gone

>>53128374
>>53128390
>>53128427
My theory is that they arnt actually rare, and are constantly being produced, but that they are extremely expensive and maintenance heavy, so they say they are rare and irreplaceable sot hat people take care of them and dont throw them around.

>>53131500
>>53131545

>What he said
>Except like four times
>Them bullets are ludicrously huge.

>>53131592
This desu

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Yes god dammit, see pic related and then get off my lawn.

>>53131731
looks like a human sized bolter to me, not a space marine bolter

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>>53125956
You guys are all dumbasses.

Bolters firstly do not come in a set caliber, even the Space Marine bolters vary in Caliber and typically the mortals use sub-calibers such as .50 while the Astartes bolters have varied from .60 (Tigrus) to .75 (Godwyn).

Secondly the primary "kicker" charge varies widely, as some bolts are cold loaded, others are supersonic, while others further are even hypersonic. Astartes bolters primarily use hypersonic or supersonic loads, so the bolt is travelling at Mach 3 or Mach 5 before it even leaves the barrel. This is why a Marine's boltgun will fuck you up if you fire it unless it's a slower round meant to shoot fleshy targets instead of armored targets. So while you may pick up a marine's bolter (if you can even lift it) if you two have been fighting Orks so it's probably not loaded with armor piercing bolts... it would be ill advised if you were fighting Chaos Space Marines or something else with thick armor.

>>53131855
The question was "Can an Imperial Guard wield a Bolter?", OP didn't specify anything beyond that.

>>53126377
>Astartes-scale bolters look like they weigh something to the order of 40kg so I'm sure that doesn't help
I mean, that actually WOULD help. It's much harder to lift and aim a heavy weapon, but the extra mass substantially dampens the recoil.

>>53126741
This, basically. For a human, a bolter is a SAW-equivalent. For a space marine, it's an SMG.

>>53130944
Ohhhhh K

>>53131938
ya but that picture isnt a bolter

>>53131139
>Force (which is completely different than KE) can be used to describe the feeling of how sharp the recoil is, but since that requires an exact knowledge of the time of the recoil impulse, it usually isn't used.

but it can be

try not to into semantics, just makes you look like an asshole

>wikipedia

>>53131992
Are you blind?

>>53132019
just looks like an assault rifle desu.

since when is every cased gun a bolter?

>>53132010

Listen retard, force and KE are two very different things, as I already said.
KE does nothing useful in describing the recoil of a gun.

>>53132066
except that it does

can you even into physics?

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>>53131906
>typically the mortals use sub-calibers such as .50
>he says without any evidence, while calling people dumbasses

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>>53132066
>>53131139
>>53130944
dude you need to stop, you obviously have no clue what you are talking about

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>>53131164

>>53126349
>Normal Humans<Space Marines<Catachans<Custodes<Primarchs<Sly Marbo

>>53132312
>Normal Humans<Space Marines<Catachans<Custodes<Primarchs<Sly MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

FTFY

>>53132154
But he sounds so authorative and knowledgable....I don't know what to think...

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>>53132325
Did you see they recently released 7th ed. rules for him?

>>53132189
>>53132066

I just fucking posted a source that clearly explains why I'm right, and all you fucking morons can do is go "nuh uh!" and "lol ur dumb"

I really hope I'm being baited right now, because you people are acting so fucking retarded it's probably shortening my fucking lifespan.

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>>53132408
>wikipedia
>valid source

this is why you are an idiot

>>53132462

Greentext and images macros aren't an argument.
If I'm so wrong, then it should be easy to find a source that proves it.
I won't reply again for anything less.

>>53132507
here you go


http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k70847&pageid=icb.page346376

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>>53132600
>harvard stie
>was expecting physics rebuttal
>link leads to explanation on why Wikipedia is not an academic source

top fucking kek

>>53132600

Not what I asked for, but I'll post this anyway.
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2013.web.dir/Rex_Hallmann/The_Physics_of_Guns/Physics_of_Guns.html
Literally 2 seconds in google

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>>53132793
>implying I didnt know this
>implying that I didnt use KE to inflate my numbers
>because 1350 sounds a lot bigger than 75, even if its not the correct units
>implying I didnt troll you for the last 4 posts about physics

is it summer already?

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>>53132889

I suspected you did, but there seemed to be too many replies.

Anyway, this is the best news you could have given me.
You have no idea how glad I am to have been trolled.

>>53129150
sorta like volkite weapons in the crusade days

>>53126758
No.
Bolt pistols for humans dates back to first edition WFB.
Bolt weapons for non marines were in "Rogue Trader" edition of WH40K, and have featured ever since.

What FFG did do was introduce the idea of less powerful versions of certain weapons for non-augmented characters.

>>53132154
Sure looks like somebody is asking for a foot up their ass.

>>53131164
To be fair, you're using "Stonetooth" Harker as an example, who is a genetic freak among genetic freaks.

On the other side of the argument, Astartes Scouts can use heavy bolters, and they're not wearing power armour to compensate (though you can argue that the biological modification they've already received mitigates it).

>>53132352
Damn.

>>53125956

Yes, they're 1 point.

They're not all the same though.

>>53127678
>30 magazine
>4 round bursts
Why?

>>53125956
The only thing that keeps a normal human from using the larger versions of Bolters is the size and weight of the thing, recoil is not a problem since the bolt is rocket propeled.
If they can hold it, even if with both hands, they can use it.

>>53131272
Did you know that this models is old as fuck and not to scale?

>implying the bolter isn't basically this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjqu4hBFWFA&t=7s

>>53125956
Here's what .577 does when shoulder fired https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrImp-ek3bI. I doubt your average guardsmen could fire a bolter.

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>>53129003
>that video

MAN-PORTABLE AUTOCANNONS HERE WE COOOOOOMMMMMEEEE!!!

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Sup?

>>53125956
If it's made for them, then yeah.

>>53125956
Yes,m and before DoW2 they were basically the same, Marines and Sisters used slightly larger propellant charges but the same overall caliber.

DoW2 made all SM Bolter rounds nearly the size of Heavy Bolter rounds for some retarded reason.

>>53125956
Theres that one fucker who can run around pulling a rambo with a heavy bolter in the guard.

>>53136424
Most bolters were 24 rounds. 30 rounds crept up in the lore as more modern weapons (and video game references) used the 30. People just assume 30 because every modern assault rifle is 30 and that currently reflects in lore/RPG mechanics.

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>>53125956
The Tau can, so I don't see why not.

>>53126925
Thirty years ago, we figured out that an inch equaled about 10 yards (actually, this leaked from GW and some wackos did the math)in WH40K, Making bolter ranges equivalent to modern battle rifles. Bolters were over grown 30mm grenade launchers with hot ammo.

Granted, this was back when Orks had BS3 and were a real threat! At one time, they could carry bolt guns AND pistols! GW swore they couldn't, but the books they published didn't say that.

>>53139774
the bolter was so strong in that game

even the lasgun was mightier than the inferior xenos tech

>>53125956
They covered this in Deathwatch. Astartes weapons are made to fit in the hands of 8 foot tall 500 llb genetically engineered post-human badasses in power armor. It's like this, a plasma gun made for an Astartes is going to have increased output, so that the amount of waste heat being vented at the wielder is enough that any IG, even one in full carapace, is just going to have his arm to turn to slag if he's dumb enough to pull the trigger. While to a Space Marine, that same amount of heat is only dangerous sometimes.

>>53132352
I was about to complain they removed his demo charge, but I see he's put it to good use.
It was true, Marbo wasn't cut from IG codex, he was lying in wait

>>53141103
I hope he's in 8th.

>>53125956
Only models manufactured for human use. An SM-pattern bolter will shatter the arm, collar and several ribs. Using a full scale one requires an unhealthy amount of augmentation, a ranking tech-priest or jacked up servitor for example

>>53127543
That's not what exponentially means.

>>53137053
B T F O
T
F
O

>not an argument

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>>53137053
>post yfw the fluff isnt to scale

>>53141198
wut? but bolters are non recoil weapons.

>>53141357
...what?

from wiki:

Bolter Ammunition (a bolt) is primarily a .75 calibre rocket-propelled round. Whereas conventional solid slugs utilise a propellant charge contained in a casing that forces the bullet down the barrel upon ignition, in contrast, a bolt is self-propelled; it features its own integrated solid fuel propellant that propels the bolt at high speeds, essentially acting like a miniature rocket. The propellant itself is shaped to control the bolt's direction and speed; however, this method of rocket propulsion would normally warp the barrel due to gas pressure. The Bolter uses an ingenious two-stage method to prevent this.

As well as the rocket propellant, a small conventional charge is also utilised. This charge is strong enough to force the bolt out of the barrel at a significant muzzle velocity, and simultaneously ignite the bolt's propellant. The rocket-propellant is precisely fused to ignite immediately as the bolt leaves the barrel, alleviating any possibility of pressure build-up. The bolt then accelerates toward the target under its own power.

What would happen if you upsize the bolter even more to 40mmn around doubling its caliber?

>>53141669
40mm (conventional) weapons were used in anti-tank and anti-air roles in WW2

so, it would probably be pretty effective

>>53128453
"Retarded Inquisitor" was great.

>>53136424
>bursts must be divisible with the magazine capacity

Why?

>>53137160
Here's a dude firing a .75 caliber rifle and he doesn't have any problems.

>>53131272
>tabeltop 40k
>to scale

lmaoing@urlife

>>53125956
Bolters come in different scales, for human and spess mahreens

Bolters are shit, I need 3-4 head shots to kill a Dire Avenger in Eternal Crusader, 40 bullets of a stormbolter to kill your average Ork

>>53142009
>Not an argument

>>53125956
Did SoB use them.. so why do you ask?