/4eg/ Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons General

>>53114084
>Whats your favorite meme build?

Fighter | Seeker with Deft Hurler'd cleave. Uses net/trident to lock down everything.

>Whats your favorite meme build?

Barbarian|Brawler Fighter MC Monk (Master of the Fist/Shock Trooper

>+3/1d10 Fists

I mean you're basically Zangief at that point in time so might as well go with it in the RP. Or Mike Haggar for those that prefer Final Fight/are more inclined towards FREEDOM.

>>53114084
>Whats your favorite meme build?
Avenger|Seeker with Distant Vengeance
Roll twice on RBAs and most seeker powers count as RBAs

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Why don't we make like /pfg/ and organize games over Roll20 or MapTool?

People can even play fox hengeyokai!

>>53114981
>implying the game isn't going to be ONLY hengeyokai

I honestly think Lazy Warlord is the coolest shit, and someday I will play one.
Someday.

4e is honestly one of my top three favorite games, yet I've never gotten to play past 1st level in post-by-post games. I'd DM it myself, but I don't have nearly enough time during the week to plan for a third game, and it's one of those games where I just really want to be a player, not the dude running the game.

Any advice on some good ways to go about joining an online 4e game? I just want to play super-awesome rp-lite heavy-tactics D&D for once.

>>53114084
so here is a fighter who locks things down with a polearm, either immobilizing them or knocking them prone. SInce he has reach they are just stuck there, 1 square a way with their thumb up their bum.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Whitler Sondrop, level 11
Goliath, Fighter, Pit Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Axe)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Polearm)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 30 Fort: 25 Reflex: 18 Will: 21
HP: 91 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +13, Endurance +14, Athletics +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +8, History +5, Insight +8, Intimidate +4, Nature +10, Perception +9, Religion +5, Stealth +3, Streetwise +4, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 4: Hafted Defense
Level 6: Fighter Weapon Specialization
Level 8: Polearm Flanker
Level 10: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 11: Pinning Challenge

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Reaping Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Knockdown Assault
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter daily 1: Comeback Strike
Fighter utility 2: Defensive Stance
Fighter encounter 3: Dance of Steel
Fighter daily 5: Bedeviling Assault
Fighter utility 6: Third Wind
Fighter encounter 7: Savage Parry
Fighter daily 9: Victorious Surge
Fighter utility 10: Reactive Surge

ITEMS
Sacrificial Halberd +3, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Amulet of Life +2, Headband of Perception (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Dwarven Gith Plate Armor +3, Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier)

>>53117851
1) If you can't find a game you gotta man up and run one. Its a good way to learn how the rules work and how to run a dungeon.
2) I suggest buying a module. The ones they have are really rather clever, just avoid the one about the ghosts, that one sucks.

>>53117965
It should say, "For Levels 1-3" or something like that. Make sure you get your players up to level 2 before you let them quit.

Also, this game is pretty difficult to play without the character generator. You'll also need the books to learn the rules. And you will also need miniatures, (Preferably a LOT of minis) the more variety you have the less you will have substitute them for other official monsters.

If nothing else, buy miniatures you'll need to run the first module. Oh, also you need a playmat. Get the biggest one they have, and make sure to get "DRY-ERASE" markers. Oh, and dice, lots of dice.

>>53118003
>Also, this game is pretty difficult to play without the character generator.

The link to the character generator is up above. Remember to read the instructions.

I know all of this sounds incredibly tedious, but it all adds to the game, once you know how to use it right.

>>53118111
It basically teaches your brain how to program! Its amazing! It doesn't really give you any discipline or motivation, so you kind of have to handle that on your own.

>>53114084
DESU, its not any less complicated than Pathfinder is. Pathfinder is actually more difficult to learn all the ins and outs of, so is 3.5.

>>53118133
>so you kind of have to handle that on your own.
well, fuck.

>>53114981

When playing 4e online, I tend to just stick to IRC like I do for most RPG's, only loading up R20 when we need a tabletop.

>>53118111

What the fuck are you talking about?

>>53114739
Take improved monk unarmed strike for 1d12 fists

>>53114084
Halfling rogue with fighter multiclass, scrappy, small warrior defense, versatile duelist and bastard sword proficiency

>53118111
Wow, any game that dares make you bring shit like dice, pencils, and character sheets should fuck right off, am I right?

>>53118276
Its like if filling out paperwork were fun. Somehow, its just exciting when you do do it this way.

just use the character generator already

I wish I could fill out my job application like it were a character sheet. It would make me feel less shitty for never having to work a day in my life.

No job can require prior experience to be a prerequisite, because that is inherently asinine as no new candidates would ever be hired. Yet that's the law. We are required, by law, to fill that sheet out, and it drives us nuts.

Its like handed someone a "Fuck you, were not hiring" placard.

>>53118541
Do you understand how hard it is for a highly functioning autistic to fill that sheet out? Do you? It makes absolutely no sense!

The only qualifications I could have for this job would be if I'd already HAD this job, in which case, why would I be applying for the exact same position which I have now?

Its ridiculous!

>>53118541
>>53118578
Why do you need to be forced to lie in order to get a job? Its so your employer has the right to deny you your entitlement! If he states that you lied on your application to his superior, he can have you fired! Yet its REQUIRED to lie on the application!

Why do they make you do this? Why do they make only US do this?

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>>53117939
>standard polearm build

Yawn.

>>53118617
If your employer has the rights and the means to deny you sustenance, then he is your master! It is a conspiracy of dunces, I tell you!

Your employer should be able to take one look at you, ask a handful of question, and decide right then and there whether or not to hire you on the spot. It should be quick, it should be painless. But its not. Its this long drawn out process of begging, pleading and placating your bosses ego, cause HES been there the longest, therefore HE knows what he is doing. The idiocy of seniority. Hes been doing it the longest, so he is the senior idiot!

>just wanted to see some cool character concepts
>get this instead

>>53118620
Well, besides my Barbarian Bugbear and my Halfling monk, thats the only optimized build I have. Except for my wizard. And my wizard is completely busted cause I leveled him up from level 1 all the way to 11 manually and didn't have the gift of foresight as to what would be the optimal build at that level.

>>53118541
>>53118578
>>53118617
>>53118660
t. Brainlets

Maybe get a degree first, you gotta start as a junior position and work to a senior position, then change to a smaller company that can afford to pay seniors, but not afford to train juniors.

>>53118027
>>53117965
>>53118003
I already know how to run the game and everything. I know that if I found players, I could easily run a 4e game. The thing is there's a large difference, for me, between running a game and playing a game. I work like 50+ hours a week and run two other games already. One game is completely honebrewed, and the other is 5e (we're doing a module). Pair with work and those games a plethora of other things, I don't have enough energy to run a third game. Additionally, all of my games are online cause the local groups all play 3.pf. God help me, I hate 3.pf.

>>53118931
If you don't understand the inherent paradox of requiring experience that can only be obtained after you obtain the job in order to be hired for it, then you are probably one of them.

If any sort of prior experience applied to a junior level job that could be obtained outside of a school or work environment, that experience should be listed as required.

I am not going to impress anybody with my 4 year and "Mowed my uncles lawn all summer" references.

>>53118968
Same person. I'm just wondering if there's a place other than roll20 to find people online to play with that isn't post by post. My experiences with roll20 have all been mostly good (only met a few horrible players out of the 50+ I've played with), but goddammit, I can never find a game that plays during a feasible time slot for me.

>>53119047
There are only three types of places to run a game outside your home, a hobby shop, a convention, or a college campus.

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

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>>53114084
If I had to pick one thing 4e did well it's gnomes, god I miss 4e gnomes and chippy.

Pic related, get yourself a real gnome.

>>53120008

This actually reminds me of a problem we ran into while working on races for a potential 4e inspired game.

We liked the idea of adding races based on the four classical elementals- Sylph, Undyne, Salamander... And Gnome.

The question was, whether to rename and partition off D&D Gnomes as their own thing, since they're very different from their mythic originator, or to reunify them with the classical elemental?

>>53120082
It worked for secret of mana

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Fuck this cancerous game, I was stuck playing it for 2 years because it was the only thing my group wanted to play. I have to keep track of spells and shit as a fighter? FUck that. The maneuvers are basically spells anyway.And half of them are the same. Why not just discard the lower-level powers as you level up so I don't have to fucking deal with them anymore. And please explain to me why the fuck my fighter can do crack the shell or rain of steel once per day? It's not a fucking spell. Also why does my fighter KNOW he can only use it once per day? He quite literally knows "oh, that was a sick ass maneuver I pulled there, too bad I won't be able to do that until tomorrow."

Explain how my fighter knows that he can only do his super-cool disarm maneuver once per day.

>m-m-muh situational usage

Except he can use it whenever he wants, as long as he hasn't used it for that day. Situation doesn't matter.

>m-m-muh he's tired

Then why doesn't he get extra uses of it for a high Constitution? It would make sense a high-Con character would get more uses of something based on vigor and energy.

>m-m-muh action movie

There are plenty of instances of action movie characters doing the same kind of maneuver twice in the same scene, let alone the same movie. This logic doesn't work either.

>>53120131
Cool story bro.

>>53120131

It's a narrative, abstract mechanic.

>>53120131
stale pasta

>>53120131
you have to let people grognard a bit after a new edition. Let them complain about all their old stuff being useless, give them time to get used to a new set.

I really wanted to go last week but was feeling super shitty, like not wanting to be out in the sunlight shitty.

>>53120131
>There are plenty of instances of action movie characters doing the same kind of maneuver twice in the same scene, let alone the same movie.

We call those "bad" movies. We like them ironically cause they use recycled footage.

>>53120249
you ever see Jet Li's "The One"? You remember when you were a kid and used to think that shit was badass?

My grandpa used to watch those in vietnam while he was burning villages. He'd get stoned and laugh his ass off

But, then, you know, they had to go and ruin it by giving teenagers and pregnant women assault rifles.

>>53120131

You misunderstand the action movie thing through taking it too literally. Then again, it seems like you're misunderstanding almost everything by taking it too literally.

>>53120289
point is, I'm not my dad.

Also, I love low level monsters. I love thinking of new ways to make them scary. You have no idea how creepy and animated skeleton can be until you've seen bones outside a museum. You can feel a chill run through you spine when you see them, its really weird.

>>53120301
I understand that you think we are competing for the same player base when we are not. "Mathhammer" type players are fundamentally different from theater groups.

Theater groups want the outcome of the die to affect the story in random ways so they are forced to adapt.

Mathhammer players just want to geek out and play math games during highly packed action sequences with occasional intermissions of dialogue.

TL:DR 5th Ed and 4th ed playerbase are almost completely separate

>>53120365

And if I told you that was a ludicrous false dichotomy? And that acting as if those two things are mutually exclusive isn't only stupid, but a fundamental misunderstanding of D&D?

>>53120412
>And if I told you that was a ludicrous false dichotomy?
Wrong. Its an entirely accurate dichotomy that sums up the problem quite neatly.

>And that acting as if those two things are mutually exclusive isn't only stupid, but a fundamental misunderstanding of D&D?
The irony is palpable

>>53114084
>meme build

Ranger/Monk.
Your offhand weapon is FIST. Be the ultimate dirty fighter: slashing, stabbing, kicking, punching.

>>53120470

So, because you're not flexible enough to engage in roleplay while also enjoying a mechanically engaging system, nobody else is capable of it?

Sure, that makes sense.

>>53120187
>It's a narrative, abstract mechanic.

So it's bullshit.

>>53120249
>We call those "bad" movies. We like them ironically cause they use recycled footage.

No one said it's recycled footage, dumbass. A character can use a trick more than once in a combat. Explain why my fighter can use Rain of Steel only once per day.

>>53120412
Miniature wargames tell a story only incidentally, if not occidentally.

The rules aren't there to facilitate a story or resolve disputes. They are there because it fundamentally a math game involving statistics and probabilities.

4e is a permissive system, the assumption is that when you are playing them you are playing a board game, i.e., you can't take out bank loans in monopoly. You have to stick to the rails and let them guide you.

Narrative focused games are designed to be played theatrically, only resorting to dice when absolutely necessary.

>>53120492
I'm saying that in real roleplay, people are going to want to do things that may make others uncomfortable, because they are acting out their fantasies and not being trained to emote or project.

Improv is a fundamentally different beast than table top gaming.

>>53120522

Because as part of the structure of a fight scene, they pace how much impact a blow will have.

Most of the time, it'll be an exchange of more simple blows without much immediate impact, with a few strong, potent or effective manoeuvres used during the scene.

And, not necessarily in every fight scene, there are those huge, spectacle moments where someone pulls off something awesome.

That's your daily. It's the big, badass finishing attack that the hero holds off on until the end of the episode, because that's the time it's appropriate to use it.

And, if you're the type to dislike abstract, narrative mechanics like >>53120506, you'll probably agree with their assessment. But that doesn't stop the mechanic making sense in its own context and working exactly as intended.

>>53120585

And that is relevant to anything at all, how exactly?

>>53120536

You really need to read more games, if you think those lines are definite boundaries. They barely exist at all, with how many things cross and blur them these days.

>>53120536

>4e is a permissive system, the assumption is that when you are playing them you are playing a board game, i.e., you can't take out bank loans in monopoly. You have to stick to the rails and let them guide you.

So you have no knowledge or understanding of D&D. Got it.

(Yes, some groups play that way. No, that is not the 'right' way, not the way all groups play, probably not even the way most groups play.)

>>53120587
It really does help control the pacing. If you're players blow their wad of dailies they are going to be stuck whiffing and using their at-wills when they have to fight a solo monster and its minions. Same thing if they never use them, if they don't use their dailies before they hit the milestone they will only get to use them once and that session will be much more grindy.

It teaches you how to conserve your powers and use them only during the best opportunity.

>>53120621
>So you have no knowledge or understanding of D&D. Got it.
>(Yes, some groups play that way. No, that is not the 'right' way, not the way all groups play, probably not even the way most groups play.)

I'm talking about 4e.
You're talking about 5e.

5e is a narrative focused game that has occasional board game elements to make fight scenes more interesting. (Because oral traditions don't have the visual spectacle of movies for their action scenes, this is necessary)

5e is about a narrative construct that centered around the myth of the heroes journey, the idea is to take someone out of their element and into a strange and mysterious place. Its meant to evoke a sense of wonder by challenging ones own pretensions of what is or what could be.

The idea isn't to grind through 30 orcs for XP, the idea is to make orcs scary. Have the party get captured or show them torturing somebody.

5e is a fundamentally different game than 4e. Its simpler, more streamlined, easier to play and more conductive to narrative style of play.

>>53120726

Nothing about 5e makes it more conducive to narrative play than 4e. There is not a single mechanic that exists in either game that makes them more or less appropriate, and I would challenge you to point one out.

>>53120726

>5e is a narrative focused game

Oh my god, please go post that whenever a storygame thread pops up. They'll laugh you out of there so fast, it'll be fucking hysterical.

>>53120753
Well then you tell me, what is 5e then?

What is d&d all about?

>>53120743
Are you kidding?
Do you know how much more simple the mechanics of 5th ed are compared to 3.5/pf/4e?

>>53120798

So they're simpler.

How does that make it more conducive to narrative play? (Hint- It doesn't.)

>>53120782

Scroll up. You'll find a pretty solid definition of D&D in general.

>>53120827
>So they're simpler.
>How does that make it more conducive to narrative play? (Hint- It doesn't.)

I'm just going to let you sit there and think about what you just said.

>>53120857

So you don't actually have a point to make? Awesome, glad to know you realised you were being dumb.

>>53120131
>Why not just discard the lower-level powers as you level up so I don't have to fucking deal with them anymore.

you've never actually played 4e, have you?

>>53120874
If I have to explain why simpler mechanics make for better narrative, then I feel like I would be wasting my breath talking to you further.

I could argue all day and you would insist that the sky is purple, because you aren't interested in action or discussion, only arguing.

>>53120900
I'm not even sure you'd be content to have the last word. You would just sit there in your silence, vaguely ill at ease and wishing for something to vent your anger out on.

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>>53120917
dammit.

>>53120900

You can't actually argue it, because it doesn't exist.

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of rules light narrative games like PbtA. People assume that, because they're light, it means they're narrativist. But the actual quantity of mechanics is entirely irrelevant- It's what you do with them that matters.

Although they're less common, mechanically complex narrativist games like Legends of the Wulin exists, and despite the somewhat sorry state of the release in that case, it proves the existence of that design space and fundamentally torpedoes your point.

D&D 5e is no more 'narrativist' than 4e. It's arguably less, since the whole Powers structure makes most sense as a narrative mechanic.

>>53120798
I actually found the disjointed clusterfuck of 5e rules harder to navigate than 4e. More rules, and more rules interaction, but you knew that if you looked it up it would be perfectly clarified.
(Except the stealth rules, maybe)

>>53121233

4e has the advantage of clear layouts and some of the best user facing book design of any RPG ever. Sadly 5e retreated back to the familiar old obfuscation and stupid stuff like ordering things alphabetically rather than by level.

>>53121255
I was disappointed too, anon. 4e is the only edition I'll bother to DM because it's not actually a giant fucking chore to do so.

Questions about the Character Builder
>Does it lack any of the released 4e content?
>Is there a way to enter custom/homebrew content?

>>53114084
Here's a challenge for you all: two or more character builds that aren't mind-blowing on their own but are meme-level when combined.

The best one I've got (which admittedly is probably on the low end of things) is Pursuit Avenger, Assault Swordmage, Tactician Warlord.

Avenger moves next to an enemy, Warlord stands behind Avenger, Swordmage marks that enemy and moves away. The enemy can then either take an attack from Swordmage by attacking someone else or it can follow Swordmage, giving Avenger a damage bonus. Warlord then uses either Commander's Strike or Direct the Strike to let the Avenger make another attack with the same damage bonus, potentially + Warlord's Int. Bonus points if Avenger uses an action point that turn for Tactical Presence.

But I'm not very good at this so I'm sure there are better ones.

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>>53122395

Such a group combination requires far too much setup for relatively little payoff. Remember that it takes some work for a swordmage to move up to an enemy, Aegis that enemy, and then move away from that enemy all in one turn.

A much simpler tag-team duo is nothing more than a generic Intelligence warlord paired with an Essentials basic-attack-spamming striker, such as a fighter (slayer), a rogue (thief), or the infamous assassin (executioner)|warlock.

There is nothing quite like letting an Essentials striker's supercharged basic attack occur multiple times in one round, with damage bonuses on top of that, thanks to a warlord's attack-enabling.

If you are looking into catch-22s involving defenders, you can accomplish that with a single character, such as a paladin|warlock right from level 1. A more elaborate, paragon-tier defender catch-22 would be a White Lotus Master Riposte half-elf fighter (knight).

>>53122589
Half-elf essentials shenanigans are quite fun indeed.

Especially with the Hunter's AoE.

>>53122589
I'm partial to artificers or warlords dumping a gigantic bonus to attack rolls on a melee ranger, right before the melee ranger does is 10+ attack nova round

>>53122395
Warlord+Slayer.

Any type of warlord, any type of slayer. All warlords are great at giving MBAs+boosts (especially for charges), all Slayers are great at MBAs (especially charging).

I mean warlords are pretty damn great in any given situation but I didn't find Slayers shining without people giving them excuses to charge shit.

>>53124442
>>53122589
Crap nevermind, I should read more.


Uhhhh, I built a pal/sorc->PMCsorc that was essentially a ranged defender. Just standing behind the group's strikers, hitting with all those implement attacks, and forcing the enemy to either wade past the front line (eating AoOs) or get blasted with supercharged Cha-based punishment and interrupts.

Was a bit of series build in its own right, but it REALLY shone with a solid frontline covering it's ass.

>>53120726

The strange thing is that, what you are describing, is not at all what 5e does. What you are describing is 4e done right. 4e done right is a game where you play the protagonists of a fantasy novel, in a largely diceless freeform game that just so happens to have a hard fast and well balanced board-game for when the fantasy novel "zooms into" combat mode.

In 5e you play people trying to go into dangerous situations (frequently dungeons) to make money collect items, hoping to survive long enough to retire before the existential horrors of the dungeonverse consume them.

4e is about playing HEROES. 5e is about playing ADVENTURERS.

>>53124538
>5e is about playing ADVENTURERS.

5e is quite schizophrenic about this, I find. I mean, that's what it implies it does, but it also does (and implies) quite a lot of the first.

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Is it possible to transform a random object into a somatic component for spellcasting?
Like the gauntlet of an armor?

>>53124712
I do not understand the question in the context of 4e.

4e doesn1t really "do" the whole somatic component things. You could refluff an implement as a gauntlet, sure (as long as you don't expect to use that hand for much else in combat).

>>53124730
4e doesn't? well that simplifies things, thank you

>>53124799
What are you planning to do?

Don't-fall-of-the-board-before-I-get-home- bump

>>53127182
I use the Help Action.

>>53120082
Look up shadow of the demon lord gnomes. They are similar to DnD svirfneblin but moving more towards the earth spirit side.

>>53120082
If I were to try to base races on their mythical progenitors, I'd make gnomes the tough earth people and dwarves the magical tricksters.

>>53120481
Off-hand? How about both hands? You're basically going full Hokuto no Ken at that point, too.

>>53122395
Flail-using Fighter (or any Defender, really); Longtooth Shifter Ranger|Cleric/Moonstalker with two Heavy Blades, Headsman's Chop and Gauntlets of Brutality (or whichever is the one that gives +5 damage when the opppnent is prone).

+2d6+10+Wisdom bonus on prone enemies by level 16 per attack. A Level 16 Ranger|Cleric's nova has like 6 attacks at worst (more around 10 attacks). That shit piles up quickly. And that's without any external bonuses, too.

Now for less meme-y matters, I've been thinking about making a Githzerao Avenger PMC Rogue. Should be really mobile and excel at crit-fishing, and at low levels you can do Surprising Charge on Power of Skill shenanigans, before slowly switching out for better Rogue powers like Low Slash and Knockout. Can even go Rapier+Short Sword if you're in for the dual-wielding fun.

>>53130556
why the fuck is cleric in there?

>>53130592
AC+Sohei theme with recharge. With Cleric you don't need to have consistently high Dexterity for decent AC, it just gives you Defender-level AC for free. Which means you can buff Wisdom which helps this build.

Anon, why people hybrid Cleric is not really rocket surgery.

>>53130708
Oooh, you're using Battle Cleric's cheat

Yeah, I've tried that, but I've never had a GM ok it, just neatly bypassing stuff like hybrid talent requirements or proficiency in chainmail is a little too strong

>>53130556
having two blades doesn't give you two attacks using an at-will, even with ranger, unless you use twin attack in which case no wisdom bonus.

>>53131512
Moonstalker PP, unlike Battle Cleric's lore, that one's actually acceptable instead of pure bullshit

>>53131640
there is no moonstalker PP

>>53131880
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Moonstalker.html

>>53130556
so the flail is for knocking people prone?
Seems like there are better ways of doing that.

>>53132348
like wizard with frost and fire aoes.

>>53132407
Or a brawler fighter with knockdown assault and the pin down feat

>>53132348
>>53132407
>>53132421

Flail is one of the better options for knocking people prone, Flail Expertise+Dragging Flail allows you to trade a slide for a prone and then slide anyway. Then the Flail MBA bonus makes it slide too. It's one of the better ways of proning a single target, especially a high-value one.

>>53133763
I'd still favor brawler

You find it a bit harder to knock people prone, but once they're prone, they STAY prone

Is 4e actually balanced or is that just another lie?

>>53133847
To be fair, it doesn't need to keep them as prone, the fact that you basically have one guy going headhunting dropping the HP of standards by about half every turn without dropping novas at level 16. Hell, he straight-up oneshot most Elites with one of his novas.

Also, Brawler has trouble dealing with tying more than one guy down.

>>53134414
A brawler has two build options.

1. unarmed. Just a gauntlet and an empty hand
2. headsman's chop heavy blade/axe and an empty hand

The advantage of the second is more damage, but the advantage of the first is that you can grapple and pin two targets at once

>>53134389
Is it perfectly balanced? No, no system is

But it is much more balanced than any other D&D edition, and the system of measuring the comparative strength of monsters compared to PCs actually works as intended

>>53134485
Does the balance being better have anything to do with the classes being made more similar?

Also a lot of the time when people complain about balance in 5e they talk about caster out-of-combat utility. Is that a problem in 4e?

>>53134389
4e is pretty balanced, but only within its limits.

There isn't anything straight up broken, but some options are straight up better than others. The Bard is one of the better leaders, high movement possibilities and very good enabling+buffing; the Warlord literally buffs everyone's Initiative and can grant out some insane enabling; the Ardent has Ire Strike and many other small things that it can do to fill out a great role; meanwhile the Cleric is better of hybridizing because it loses very little and gains a bunch and it's a kind of weak leader.

Fighters start strong and stay amongst the strongest classes in the game; Wardens can be very good Defenders but have bad starts; Battleminds straight up don't have OAs unless they spend their first feat on Melee Training.

Rangers and Sorcerers just wreck everything if you understand how 4e's damage optimization works; Rogues do everything quite well but nothing especially well; Barbarians have really good stuff but also some of the worst dailies in the game; Warlocks kind of give up damage for control and Avengers can come out as some of the best in the game but they need so much work to just get going in the first place.

Invoker's well-rounded; Druid design is all over the place but it's overall a decent class; Wizard dailies are stupid strong and can basically dominate the whole game.

4e has very good balance, but some stuff just stands out as better than other stuff. Fighter has one of the better Striker-based Paragon Paths in Shock Trooper and one of the best feats in the game period with Battle Awareness, as well as access to some ridiculously strong feats. No wonder so many people MC Fighter, for example.

>>53134533
In some ways, some classes have more flexible utility powers than others, and classes capable of using ritual magic without spending a feat have a distinct advantage in terms of out of combat utility.

But no class is capable of the insane out of combat utility of wizards in other editions

>>53134533
Not really? I guess laying out clearly what each role ought to do (protect squishies/deal damage/control the battlefield/help everyone) did, because no longer the Wizard was beating everyone at everything, but that's really making them more distinct... Casters have out-of-combat utility but it isn't nearly as broken as other editions.

4e is pretty good all in all. Just keep in mind that your players may want to be Fighters that aren't Defenders - we have other classes for that; they don't need to be Fighters.

>>53134741
We actually do have the Slayer for that.

If you like the 5e fighter, he's your guy.

>>53134778
Or Ranger

4e Ranger is closer to 5e fighter than it is to 5e ranger. Complete with just making more attacks than everyone else

>>53134741
So is blowing shit up with fireballs just not something 4e wizards do anymore as a "controller"?

From the sound of it if you're into that you should be a sorcerer instead or something?

>>53134825
No, blaster wizards are still a thing, wizards actually do very well as off-strikers

Unfortunately Fireball itself is a shitty spell

>>53134533

The classes being made more similar is only true if you just look at the power structure.

In terms of how they actually play in practice, I've found 4e classes to be more mechanically distinct than their 3.5/5e equivalents.

The balance definitely has a lot to do with classes being made similar, at least only in that being made such a way they were all heavily standardized, both in the formats of power (AEDU, granted at specific levels, with certain amounts of each) but also their damage numbers and effects that the powers could cause, makes it hard to fuck up.

So as someone who appreciates 4e's design goals but doesn't actually like the game much per se: what sorts of followups have there been in the design of other systems? Not necessarily as obvious as Pathfinder aping/cannibalizing 3.5.

Obviously there's Strike!, but for whatever its strengths it's quite deeply flawed. It feels like a prototype of a better game.

I quite enjoy Gamma World 7e, which really drills down into the heart of 4e for a more simplified system overall that still maintains the core conceits. In a sense it's almost like a Basic/Expert take on 4e, if you ignore the card mechanic.

I know of an indie RPG called Valor, where you use a combination of pointbuy pools to build characters and 4e-styled powers. Seems a bit interesting but chunky.

There's Rule of Cool's Legend system, which is dissimilar in most ways from 4e but also goes to lengths to have characters built into sorts of niches with bundles of unique powers, as well as keeping weapon types more viable with their own strengths and weaknesses. Also like 4e it toys with 3.X's idea of 'wealth by level'.

Anything else?

4e was the best. We had it all, fellas! We had it all! Now look!

LOOK

>>53134825
>>53134914
Blaster wizards are so well supported that if you want "guy throwing around fire" you are technically better off with a Genasi muscle-wizard than with anything else.

>>53140795
No, you're still better off with a tiefling fire dragon sorcerer

pyromancer wizard has better feat support, but fire sorcerer has much better powers

>>53138726
You've named all the ones I can think of - assuming Valor is what my memory is telling me it is. Well, there was also some RPG I saw that was a few pages long and had you build your powers with points, but I'll be damned if I can remember what it was.

4e seemed to have a relatively low impact on the TTRPG world, really. That might be other games obfuscating it all better so I don't see it (slightly doubt it), but I think it's more of just nobody wants all the work that the..."style" demands. Or people are just busy doing their own thing.

>but for whatever its strengths it's quite deeply flawed
I assume you are not referring to the combat system here? Or do you think its combat is flawed?

>>53142580
Maybe I'm just being wishful, but I think 4e had an impact in that it paved way to more top-down deigned/goal oriented RPGs to be made. They don't happen to be in the same niche as 4e, but after the fucking terrible 90s/2000s scene it's finally acceptable again to not make a simulationist heap of shit.

>>53118212
Seconded.
The visuals can be more detracting to the RP experience; 4e is mechanical by its nature, so it's always better to rely on narrative description than counting on your game board to show minute details. Players often start seeing things that aren't there, and vice-versa.

>>53143029
More detailed maps help out a lot.

Maybe crib from Fate and give each map 3 aspects the players are free to invoke or add to with a bit of creativity.

>>53144126
Could expand on it? Always found nice to allow players to modify the scenes and encounters. Like Lair Powers.

>>53144982
Like so:

>Uneven Ground
>Holy shit I'm tripping.
Reaction (doesn't remember the term)
Trigger: enemy is moved at least 2 squares as part of an ally power.
Effect: reduce the movement by one square (minimum 1), and knock it prone.

Taking that >>53145570 is the second thread about it, and I have already said on other 4e thread of my will to make a game out of it, what do you guys think? I'll work mainly with SC1 since it is the one I know more.

Terran
Marine as ranged Martial Defender
Firebat as melee Controle
Ghost as Striker
Medic as Leader

Zerg and Protoss as enemies for now. Zerglings are good Minions, Hydralisks are Artilleries and so on.

Think it can gather interest from both the 4e and SC fan base?

>>53145856
I think marines should be strikers, at least stim-pack makes me think that.

Or it could be a defender/striker like Berserker.

>>53147318

A high damage defender like a Fighter would make sense for Marines. Although they are high DPS in the game, other Terran unit classes are kinda more suitable for that.

>>53145856
>>53147318
>>53147367

Actually, Stimpack could be an interesting bit of class design.

They'd have the usual high Surges of a Defender, but could perhaps burn surges to give certain powers an extreme damage boost, trading their long term survivability for short term power.

>>53147367
A fully ranged defender would be interesting. Maybe mix it with soft area control-style things (keeping overwatch/suppression fire).
>>53147399
Being ranged (and hence less in the way of fire) would make that tradeoff possibly well worth it.

>>53147318
I think Marine should cover the Defender role better. With Striker (better use of rifle) or Controller (using hand Grenades) as secondary.

Firebat (renamed to Heavy Weapons) would be Controller, with possibility of Firebat or Marauder (allowing to equip one or the other weapon in each arm).

Ghost could specialize in the rifle and/or go psychic.

And Officer could go Medic or something else.

Still only brainstorming the idea.

>>53145856
I think you're looking at it slightly wrong - it seems like it'd be better to make the powers first, and then slot the type.

Like look at your ghost - you'll go to make the class and then realizes his abilities are about disabling or area control/denial via EMPs and Nuclear Strikes. Of course, cloak + Steady Targeting is decently Strikery (but then ST is a channeled ability, so more soft control) so you could argue Striker as well. Easily primary one, secondary the other.

The point is, I'd try to make the powers and what makes sense, then type them, then you can add more powers if you want to make shit up. Of course, you might not end up with each of the 4 if you do it this way so meh.

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I got nothin' to pretend to ask about

>>53147432

A ranged defender is basically a controller.

>>53114084
I'm doing Rogue Brutal Scoundrel with Mark of the Storm and Riposte Strike.

This is my first time playing D&D4, tips to make it more effective would be very nice. I already plan on taking all the feats, like Deadly Draw for free combat advantage on attack, Impending Doom, Vigilante Style Justice et Grudge Style to make the Riposte Strike even more effective.

>>53153154
vicious advantage and cunning sneak are good ways of getting advantage, nimble blade is a fantastic feat because it's effectively just +1 to hit

Last thread y'all were talking about the intended hit rate of characters, and it was said that game aimed for 55%, but that it slid down to 50% at paragon, 45% at epic. (Ignoring that 55% is garbage anyways)

What numbers are we using here, when enemies have various defenses?
How did anybody calculate that the attack accuracy dropped off as you went up in tier?

>>53153397
Isn't Deadly Draw better? It gave me advantage each time I make someone slide, and I slide each time I hit someone with a lightning weapon with mark of the storm.
I can't find vicious advantage on the compendium. Cunning sneak, maybe you meant Cunning Stalker, advantage each time you hit an ennemy with nothing adjacent to hit? I was considering it too.
We already all have a bonus feat for the +1/+2/+3, along with improved defenses

>>53153762
What makes nimble blade great is that it gives you an UNTYPED +1 to hit

It's only when you have combat advantage, but it still stacks with the rogue's bonus to hit with daggers and expertise feats.

I'm generally wary of elemental cheese sets since they tend to be walled pretty damn hard by resistances and immunities. If you aren't searching for advantage though I guess you could take two-weapon fighting in preparation for paragon tier

I miss 4E so bad

>>53153885
I bet if you tried to GM a game you could find a few players.

>>53154513
I live in Melbourne Australia. There are way fewer nerds here, most of them are whackos, and running online never works. So shit outta luck.

didn't there used to be a feat that when you hit with a fire power it would gain vulnerability to cold? (or vice versa)

I used to have a build based around that feat.

>>53155325
nm, i found it, arcane fire.

I want to combine arcane fire with lasting frost for an elemental build.

Can you choose not to learn a daily or encounter power when you reach a new level? I'm not sure if I prefer Bigby's Grasping Hands over Bigby's Icy Grasp because of my lasting frost power.

>>53155924
>lasting frost power.
*lasting frost feat

>>53155924
Also, can you choose a second power of a lower level instead of one at the level you are at?

Does the vulnerability from arcane fire and lasting frost stack?

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dang. I made that one psionic build and now I'm crapped out.

>>53156107
Character builder lets you do it without giving you the houseruled tag.

>>53156107
Yes. When you gain a new power, you can choose anything from your level and lower.

>>53156340
>>53155346
crap, guess it doesn't

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/58573/do-vulnerabilities-stack

flaming sphere is funny cause its so powerful yet hardly anybody ever uses it.

All you have to do is summon it, sustain it, then park it next to your enemies.

>>53157126
coo, tanks bro.

if something says it does x amount of damage with no roll on a hit do you still get to add damage from effects that say "add x damage to your roll?"

seems like a lot of bookkeeping.

hey, with lasting frost they gain the vulnrability to frost until the end of their next turn. You could give people frost weapons and let them wail on them for +5 damage to every hit.

jeez, why did I never think of that...

dammit, my build keeps falling apart.

I think I remember arcane admixure getting nerfed hard.

>>53158206
I guess I can take it twice.
Feels like a waste though.

>>53157807
No, it expressly does not, which is why the original version of magic missile > the new version, because things that proc on hit do not count if there is no attack roll.
>>53157849
Frost cheese was one of the first and best optimized builds.

>>53158327
no no, I mean when you still roll to attack but not for damage.

Also, do you get to add you're implements bonuses to zone effects?

>>53153154
IIRC spiked chain training is pretty good for Riposte Strike, since they can't just shift away and attack you from there.

You know something people tend to overlook?
blaster mages really need to go first to make best use of their aoe's.

>>53158695
The threat of AoE is actually pretty good in itself, as it dissuades enemies from ganging up, making it easier for your guys to isolate and gang up on them instead.

>>53145856
I think 4e is sort of an ill fit. Even if you refluff the skills, I don1t really know what you should do with STR, since everyone is using guns.

>>53159259
>Even if you refluff the skills, I don1t really know what you should do with STR, since everyone is using guns.

Heavy weapons. No matter how agile you are, good luck using a minigun without the strength to handle the recoil.

>>53159272
That strength is supposed to be in the suit.

But hmm, yeah, making heavy ranged weapons could work I guess.

>>53159259
Maybe I'll take the opportunity to just reduce from 6 to 3 abilities. Might, Mind, Agility (or something refering to agility that starts with M).

>>53160345
Strength, Speed, Smarts?

I honestly always hated CON being a stat. It's so passive.

>>53161417

A few friends and I have been pondering questions like this, including how you'd make Con more of an active stat. Part of our idea is associating every stat with two skills instead of one, evening up the numbers, but it's also the concept.

'Constitution', the idea of being really tough and tireless, can be interpreted in more active ways... But often it overlaps with willpower. It's a bit difficult.

>>53161471
I just think that the niches of "very strong, but not very tough" and "very tough, but not very strong" that is enabled by splitting STR and CON isn't important enough to keep. For most fiction, big strong guys can take big strong hits.

You would have to redesign from the ground up, but I'd just fuse STR and CON. This removes the need from having to make melee fighty-smashy characters more buff through class hit dice size, (cause you'll be having STR anyway), for example. It also adds a passive defense like AGI does in the form of HP (again, not that good in 4e because heavy armor AC is mostly on par with what you can get with light armors).

>>53161521
Not him, but I never liked the Str/Con/Dex thing. Either do as you say and fuse Str/Con or split Dex in Agility and Dexterity.

>>53161521

While I to a degree agree with you, we're trying to toe the line of balancing innovation with familiarity.

We're all people who love 4e, but while we all have ideas about how to improve it, at the same time if we actually want to market it and sell it one day, having it continue to be recognisable as a form of D&D lets us tap into that audience more effectively. Still, it's hard to know exactly where to set the balance point. We don't want to be like Pathfinder, just a new coat of paint.

>>53161687
Totally agree with you, I'm working on my own roughly 5e based homebrew, and shit like this is driving me nuts.

I have reached compromise by just including a bunch of optional rules.

>>53161684
>split Dex in Agility and Dexterity.

Oh yeah, manual dexterity and agility being the same thing is pretty weird too, with all lockpicking thief-types also being acrobats. I'd rather just shift that function over to INT (so, say, surgeons are INT based and aren't that great at backflips).

>>53161800
I'm a surgeon, so I can tell you that manual dexterity is important. A surgery is not only INT (knowing is different from doing). 5e did good with the Tool Proficiency, but I think it still looked more like a beta feature.

But were we to fix this, the game would stray too much from D&D (to either get the player base or retrocompatibility). And we all saw what happened when 4e killed a few sacred cows.

>>53162033
We could stray from D&D and just go as a new thing. 4e's style is arguably the best suited for a TCG-inspired tactical RPG - I reckon we could do something with it.

Frost Mage Cheese Build

Cerius, level 12
Deva, Wizard, Blood Mage
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Cold
Arcane Admixture Power: Scorching Burst
Background: Early Life - Isolated (Perception class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 23, Wis 16, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 28 Fort: 20 Reflex: 25 Will: 24
HP: 67 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +17, Dungeoneering +14, Perception +14, Insight +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +7, Heal +9, History +14, Intimidate +6, Nature +9, Religion +14, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Thievery +8, Athletics +5

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 8: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 10: Burning Blizzard
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Lasting Frost

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard at-will 1: Nightmare Eruption
Wizard encounter 1: Icy Terrain
Wizard daily 1: Phantom Chasm
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Freezing Cloud
Wizard utility 2: Familiar Harrier
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Shield
Wizard encounter 3: Icy Rays
Wizard daily 5: Bigby's Icy Grasp
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Glitterdust
Wizard utility 6: Fire Shield
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Familiar's Call
Wizard encounter 7: Winter's Wrath
Wizard daily 9: Face of Death
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Summon Succubus
Wizard utility 10: Mass Resistance
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Phoenix Step

ITEMS
Spellbook, Brooch of Shielding +2, Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier), Defensive Staff +3, Accurate staff of Ruin +3, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) of Resistance +2

>>53163908
Nothing like doing +19 cold damage on an aoe, plus another 5 from lasting frost.

>>53163983
lol, whoops, +20 with the dragonshard

>>53163908
Also

resist 5 necrotic, radiant, poison, 1 other with armor, 2 others with mass resist
resist 10 force, resist 10 fire and cold with flame shield

Auto-Flanking teleporting familiar

29 AC

>>53164030
>>53164229
ah crap, says the item has to be augmentable to use the dragonshard, plus they are Ebberon specific.

Also AC is 28, not 29. oops.

oh well, when I hit level 14 my AC will be 30 and my damage will be plus 20 due to 1/2 level bonus and Int bonus.

>>53162033
I just feel when I think of "guy who lockpicks" I think more of the guy who is intelligent/trained than one that's doing cartwheels. So I feel it is more related to general intelligence than general agility, which is what dexterity mainly is. So, even with tool prof, I'd put it under INT, because the method to train it is closer to how you train, say, alchemy, than how you train rope walking. Or possibly even Wisdom, when you consider you have to feel that you are moving that small piece of metal right and have to be patient and stuff.

Then, being really good with your hands could be a feat or a feature for thieves (maybe something like them being able to use DEX for that kinda thing, while others have to use other stuff).

Give me your most interesting and challenging encounters!
Has anyone found use for traps in combat? They seem be quite clunky when I use them

What is the best way to do low-level (lvl 2-3) solos?
I've had two issues in the past, where the players roll them too quick, or the solo straight up kills a character by the second round. I've even had both these problems at the same time once.
Is giving the boss opportunity encounters interesting or frustrating to a player? How many rounds does a fight go for before players start feeling it's tedious?
I just want the cool barbarian gladiator to feel like a challenge. If the level 2 players can roast him in 12 in game seconds then he doesn't really feel like a big deal.

>>53165674
Solos aren't really great exactly because of the problems you describe.

Maybe make two elites and glue them together. Give him 2 initiatives that are two full turns, save against everything twice, etc (if you want, mask a second one as reactions, if your players are the type to get upset about that),

Also, make the terrain interesting. Solo monsters are kinda bad because they don't do positioning as easy. Maybe give it a close blast 1 attack that pushes everyone back (a ground slam) that he then uses to jump up to somewhere or jump over a pit or something to fight the players from a more favorable position.

>>53165673
>Has anyone found use for traps in combat? They seem be quite clunky when I use them
I prefer to see traps as "environment hazards". Something as simple as loose gravel that can trip up someone who is ducking and weaving against another foe, a tile that gives way, plummeting to the ground, or a rogue elemental zone that travels due to a botched ritual.
Unless the foes are on home turf and had prep time, don't force traps where they make no sense. Follow the theme.
>>53165674
I have a rule about single solos: it's not the mechanics that make them, it's the image, the status. Despite what >>53165825 says, you plop a big fucking dragon in front of your players, their immediate thought is gonna be OH SHIT ITS A FUCKING DRAGON, and when you start to tear shit up, it becomes OH SHIT THE FUCKING DRAGON IS GONNA KILL US ALL and they will either nut up or run.
That said, if you are gonna throw in a solo, make it at least 2 levels above the party, and give it 2+ actions a round. Whay my players don't know is that it's defenses don't matter, most of my shit is homebrew anyway, and my rule is 3/4 encounters will hit, 2/3 dailies will hit, 2/5 at wills will hit, period, meanwhile, the solo is hitting like a truck, not often hitting, but dealing damage on a miss, pushing/prone'ing pcs, wrecking formationgs, constantly creating zones and auras to fuck with their plans, sometimes has a powerup when bloodied.
When it comes to solos and "boss fights", you, the DM, are better aided by a masterful hand at managing the tempo of the battle and managing your players than hedging on mechanics.

>>53165825
>>53166067
I have a later-level solo I ran before where I homebrew'd a sphinx to get a standard action each turn instead of rolling initiative. That seemed to work with few issues, but it feels weird to give extra action powers to someone who is meant to be a mundane fighter, just an amazing mundane fighter.
I like the push/proning and the use of mobility/terrain. It's an arena, so I can totally utilize that more.
Do minions help at all to pull the focus from a solo, or does it just make things awkward or distracting?

>>53166240
>Do minions help at all to pull the focus from a solo, or does it just make things awkward or distracting?

I think last thread had some cool minion ideas. Make the minions do shit like mark or do some sort of build-up that forces the party to keep them in check while fighting the main baddy.

>>53166338
This.
Minions, when with a solo, should bolster the solo and make the solo more dangerous by denying options and freedom of movement to the party.
I had a golem who would throw graviton spikes at the party, 3 per throw, and where they landed, they had an aura 3 pull effect and force pcs to grant CA. Then the solo had bonus effects on all it's attacks if the target granted CA, from bonus damage to the legendary "Graviton Fusion Bomb".
>if you need to know what it is, google Emerald Fusion Driver

>>53114739
With Barbarian you could even grab Hurl Weapon for ranged unarmed strike.

>>53120506
As much as HP.

>>53166659
barbarian hadouken

>>53164516
A staff (even an accurate implement) also counts as a quarterstaff, making it eligible for dragonshards.

>>53166659
Is that even possible by RAW? Really throw away punches?

>>53166855
The Hurl Weapon feat works, even in the char builder.

The Improvised Missile feat explicitly does not allow unarmed strikes. That's another feat, however.

>>53166067
then your players get pissed when they ask you to show them the monsters stats after the figth

Kobold Martial Arts Master Level 3 Solo Skirmisher
Small natural humanoid XP 750
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +4
HP 211; Bloodied 105
AC 20; Fortitude 14; Reflex 22; Will 18
Resist 5 force
Saving Throws +5
Speed Speed 8
Action Points 2
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 12 (+2) Dex 20 (+6) Wis 16 (+4)
Con 14 (+3) Int 12 (+2) Cha 12 (+2)
m Kick (standard; at-will) • Force
+8 vs AC; 1d10 + 6
m Punch (standard; at-will) • Force
+8 vs AC; 1d6 + 6
M Karate (standard; at-will)
Effect: The Kobld Martial Arts Master can make two punch attacks against the same target or one kick attack and one punch attack against two seperate targets.

>>53169932
Back-Flip (move; at-will)
Effect: Shift through enemies square to any unoocupied square adjacent to that enemy except the square you started in. That enemy grants combat advantage until the end of their next turn.
Ki Strike (standard; recharge 5 6) • Force, Psychic
+8 vs Fortitude; Hit: ; 2d10 + 6 Target is pushed 5 squares. If the target ends this movement next to a wall he takes an additional d10 damage. The target is dazed (save ends). If the target is already dazed, then he is stunned. (save ends) Miss: Target is pushed 3 squares and the attack does half damage. The target is dazed until the end of its turn. If the target is already dazed, then he is stunned until the end of its turn instead.
Flying Dragon Kick (standard; recharge 5 6) • Force
You may make a charge attack and use this attack in place of a melee basic attack. This movement is considered flying and does not provoke opportunity attacks.; +10 vs AC; 2d8 + 6 and the target is dazed (save ends) If the target is already dazed the target is now stunned instead. (save ends) Miss: half damage and the target is dazed until the end of its next turn. If it was already dazed, it is now stunned until the end of its next turn instead.
Banzai! (immediate reaction; encounter)
When Bloodied, regain Ki Strike and Flying Dragon Kick and use both immediately in either order.
Throw (immediate interrupt; at-will) • Martial
Trigger: Target misses with an attack
+8 vs Reflex; 1d8 + 3 and you shift the target through you're square to any unoccupied square adjacent to you, except the square that enemy started in. The target is now prone.
Shifty (minor; at-will)
The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action.
Quick Little F#&%er (no action; at-will)
Adjacent enemies are treated as partial cover for ranged attacks against the Kobold Martial Arts Master.
C Sweep Kick (standard; at-will) • Martial
Close Burst 1 Target: Every enemy in the burst.; +8 vs AC; 1d4 + 3 and the target is knocked prone

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>>53169932
>>53169959
err... wait.

New and Improved!

>>53170199
I'm not sure if he is badass enough. Should I make sweep kick a move action?

>>53170199

sweep kick should also target reflex

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I think this is a much better version than the three different sized ones I used earlier.

I was thinking about making him a minion spawner or just giving him a handful of clockwork men as minions or something, but I think maybe thats too much.

Input? Critiques? Suggestions? Nerfs?

>>53171796
Oops. Under Alpha Strike
>The Clockwork Mech can not fire any of its cannons until the end of its next turn.
*The Clockwork Mech can not fire any of its cannons until after the end of its next turn.

>>53171796
Does it need a level adjustment, you think?

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SMELLY PIRATE HOOKER

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NEED INPUT

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>>53171796
Maybe something like this?

>>53170199
Stun on miss if the target is already dazed seems excessive for such a low level enemy, even a solo.

>>53171796
At-will, minor action Stun
Is this meant for 7+ person parties?

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>>53172866
yeah, but it does 1d4 damage, its like a little bopper that comes out and wallops you. Maybe change it to daze?
>>53172780
point taken. how would you change it?

>>53172866
Its made for a nominal 5 person party, 4 core + 1 hanger on.

I want to make some really good elites, cause we kept getting nearly ko'd by elites. We didn't seem to have much trouble with solos.

>>53172866
>At-will, minor action Stun

maybe I could change it to move? Solo's have to disable and lock down individual party members to stand a fighting chance.

adventure tools has some really good monsters in its database, but there are a lot of filler monsters too. Somebody really should have put a limit on how many of the same type of monster they could make for goblins, skeletons, ect.

I like the orc alchemist and orc bombadeer. Seems like they should be gnomes and goblins, respectively, though.

>>53173030
>>53173125
Make it a daze, that way it acts as the set up for the one that stuns if the creature is dazed. Or make the stun last until the start of the creatures turn, effectively cutting them off from all opportunity and free actions, and granting CA, but still letting them get some actions in the combat.

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>>53114084
This feels underpowered for an elite.

I'm used to super players with broken builds, so I am trying to make them difficult, but not impossible.

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>>53175403

You ever see Stallone in the movie Cobra or Al Pacino in Scarface?

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>>53174451
It only stuns if the target is already dazed. The only way it can do that is to spend an action point or use its banzai power.

>>53175485
>Punching Glove (minor; at-will)
>Hit: 1d4 + 2 and the target is stunned until the end of its next turn.

The thing you're talking about is on the kobold, and the only issue I had was that a dazed target is stunned regardless of hit or miss, which seemed harsh

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>>53175403
All my old files lost all their text, damage values, ect. This is the shell and powers list for one of my creatures.

Want to help me think of what these powers should be?

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>>53175611
Maybe I should just have it do 1 point of damage? The thing with daze is that it doesn't prevent a charge or ranged attack.

Without minions, its going to need to use its move action to teleport every turn, (assumming its teleport power doesn't fizzle on a 1) otherwise it'll get swamped and the PC's will just shuffle it off into a corner and gangrape it.

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>>53175611
>>53175403
these are both solo monsters, meaning you fight them alone, or with a handful of 1 hit point minions.

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>>53175611
target is only stunned on a hit.
Doesn't matter if its dazed.

Are you talking about the strobe cannon? Maybe I should have that deal 0 damage as well.

dammit, why does 4chan keep asking for pictures?

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>>53171796
>>53175611
Here is a slightly nerfed version.

>>53175911
My problem wasn't the damage on the stun, it was that it Ivan technically do that twice per round, on top of a standard action attack. That essentially keeps 2/5 of the players not doing anything the entire fight.

>>53176172
That it can**

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>>53176172
Thats if it hits both times. All its attack powers are 1 lower than they should be for its level, except homing missile.

Also >>53175699
>Without minions, its going to need to use its move action to teleport every turn, (assumming its teleport power doesn't fizzle on a 1) otherwise it'll get swamped and the PC's will just shuffle it off into a corner and gangrape it.

>>53176345
Word of advice

Monsters with stuns, even 1-off stuns, are not fun to fight

Spending a turn doing nothing because you're stunned feels awful, worse than spending a turn doing nothing because you've been knocked unconscious

Instead, try to use daze effects, dazes are actually a lot of fun, because choosing just 1 action in a turn is quite a challenge

>>53176993
Seconding this so hard.

You should only start doing stuns once the group has good options to counter it. At that point it works as a resource drain/timer thing they need to deal with.

>>53166800
More likely, spirit punches.

It checks out, either way.

>>53166659
ok ok ok...so i was thinking about how to use this effectively as a barb and i was thinking an interesting build might be to hybrid Barb and Monk taking monk's Unarmed Combatant and mainlining both STR and DEX and running it as a Half-Orc.

The build starts to really look fun at lvl 2 with the Improved Monk Unarmed Strike turning those fists in d10s.

I have a buddy who is obsessed with playing Warlords and likes to play a less lazy version of the Lazylord (his encounters and dailies tend to be on the less lazy side). So I could be throwing out RBAs or MBAs just about every turn.

My question for you is other than splitting main stats, do you know off hand of any glaring reasons why this shouldnt work?

For the whole idea of a 4e retroclone, how many powers do you think a character should end up with?

In 4e, you end up with four encounters, four dailies and six utilities, before any feat or item powers. Fourteen distinct options, before at wills and consumables/item dailies etc is quite a bit.

On the one hand I can see the quantity providing a lot of strategic depth, on the other I can see it being overwhelming.

Using an idea suggested earlier in another thread, splitting Utility powers into Support (combat utility) and Utility (Out of combat utility) do you think eventually ending up with three of each category (Encounter, Daily, Support, Utility) might be workable?

Fewer options, only 9 of which are usable in combat (not counting at wills), but perhaps putting more focus and emphasis on those powers, making the smaller number of options more significant by their greater scarcity.

>>53180760
I think the 3/3/3/3 option is a good one. Maybe making later advancements like paragon paths or epic destinies only offer passive bonuses by default, maybe with a couple unique cases where they give powers instead.

>>53180689
Barb|Fighter MC Monk is better, I reckon.

>>53181107
It almost certainly is, the stats line up well, you get some choice fighter feats and powers but if i am being quite honest i am not a huge fan of the grapple which a fighter would be more attuned to. The biggest issue is that there is no MC way to gain Unarmed Combatant (that I can find anyway).

i kind of like the idea of a monk because of the kung-fu implications. it also has the added bonus of higher damage and accuracy without having to spend a feat and even greater damage if i do. It also helps mitigate the feat-starved problems that a brawler has by simply not requiring them since I wont be grappling.

But i have seriously considered that option and it is still quite appealing for the powergamer in me

>>53181294
There is a way to get unarmed combatant via multiclass, the Master of the Fist feat http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Master-of-the-Fist.html

On top of that, if you take tempest technique, not brawler style as your hybrid talent, you don't have to grapple at all, you just punch people. Or you take whirling slayer for access to those great barbarian dual-wielder powers

>>53181394
Ooo, i somehow missed that one...hmm I will have to think this over more. thanks

>>53181107
>>53181294
>>53181394
>>53181532
Looking at it again it might be good to go Barb|Ranger MC Monk...god I am bad at character building

>>53181929
Unfortunately the optimal build here is to discard barbarian entirely, instead going fighter/ranger

But barb/ranger has a funny thing it can do, namely going 16/16 str/dex and using it's hurled fists to use ranger ranged powers

>>53180870

Hmm... Not sure on that front. I do like the idea of defining PP's and ED's with powers, too. And I also forgot about racial powers, or themes if we implement an equivalent to them.

Then again, reducing the base number of powers might make all the extra sources more tolerable?

>>53182102
that is exactly what i was thinking...doing things like Throw And Stab with my fists makes me giggle a little (although I'll probably go Twin Strike cause I can and should)

banzai!

>>53182144
whats this now?

are you using that monk superior ki focus that gives you reach for some reason?

>>53114084
I want to make more powerful standards and elites, but I still want to conform to the form and convention for monsters in D&D.

Right now I'm making a list of monsters that are d&d staples and establishing a "default" template to stack everything on top of.

4e monsters are all over the place, they are like pokemon, each one is a super special snowflake version that does ONE thing different, with a handful of really cool ones that you could tell someone put some thought into.

>>53186052
see
>>53166659
Hurl Weapon allows you to use ANY One-handed, Off-Hand weapon as a Heavy Thrown weapon. Unarmed strike meets those requirements.

>>53168640
Not to mention the players who spent all their feats and features on accuracy enhancement, only to be rendered void by unstated houserules.

>>53194241
Also, hitting 2/5 for at wills.

What the fuck? I mean, I get that essentials classes suck, but what the fuck?

Maybe >>53166067 would enjoy Strike! instead, if he's afraid of numbers..

I-is 3.5 also welcome? Please, I'm yearning for a place to call home

>>53194590
No? Don't you have your own threads?

>>53194604
No :(

>>53194590
>>53194661
Just use /pfg/.

I'm sorry.

>>53194689
We are actually discussing the game, now is your best chance to ask questions

>>53194661
Make one?

>>53194590
I remember 3.x idiots shitting up every 4e thread they could so no, take your bullshit elsewhere.

>>53180870
>>53180760
I'd prefer 2+1 (2 by class + 1 by PP) instead of 3.

>>53194886
Be the better man Anon!

>>53199283
Why, so they can come shit up this thread? Fuck them.

>>53197433

Hmm. Only getting two from your class feels very low. Classing providing 3 of each, and race/theme/PP/ED all providing one power of some sort might make sense? Still less than core 4e, but a bit more variety than the flat 3/3/3/3.

>>53114084
Can someone help me with a question. I was wondering what is the ore or material you can melt down magic items into called? It was something ium from what I remember. My group is going to start a 4e game and I'd like to know what book that material/ore is in to read about it.

>>53200210

Residuum?

>>53200210
It's residuum

But in every game I've run, gold and residuum are literally the same thing by different names

>>53200231
>>53200278
Thank you both.