EDH/Commander General

Azami is a terrible example if you're trying to come up with commanders that only work if you spend tons of money

>>53053961
They're both kinda shit, but I'm more used to Sheldon's list and my decks are tuned for it. If I had to start over with one of the lists, maybe WOTC's, but it misses some important things and hits some things that don't really need to be.

>>53053994
I invite you to reread my post. I didn't say Azami was expensive, I said skimping on costs cripples the deck.

>>53054004
I wouldn't mind switching, I don't care either way and this list mitigates some more expensive stuff so I wouldn't need it and also eliminates switching cards between decks some, but the problem is of course right now the most played list is probably still the RC's. If it ever became the case that the MTGO list became the one 90% of people play, I would make the switch.

>>53053828

How about that decklist, anon.

>>53054032
If it did become the more common one, then I would switch just for the sake of it. Neither are truly good lists, but they both have some high points.

>>53053961
Wizarda by far but it's for 1v1.

I'm baffled WOTC omitted Metalworker from their banlist. If they banned Cradle what the fuck were they thinking?

>>53053961
I feel like if WOTC were to make a banlist for paper Commander, they wouldn't put Sol Ring on it since they reprint it in every precon. They obviously don't mind it being used and I find it odd that they bothered putting it on the MTGO list.

>>53053961
>>53054041
Not him but can I post my shitty budget gitrog list?

>>53054081
Well when you can't turn 1 Metalworker it isn't that much of a problem.

>>53054109
Sure, anon.

>>53054136
Ok don't be surprised that it's shit though

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-frog-is-loose/

>>53054121
This, it's still a very strong card, but when you ban the rest of the fast mana it's usually only about as good as a thran dynamo

>Yisan banned

Do they hate tool box or some shit?

>>53054121
>>53054219
Plus it's an artifact creature in a format where being either is a significant vulnerability.

>>53054253
Yeah, it makes the deck too consistent in 1v1. Your opponent has to try to assemble their plan while Yisan just pulls it right up for you.

>>53054253
The deck it enables is Sidisi Ad Nauseam levels of boring shit.

>>53054163
Looks fun. I'd play it. With some many basics did you give any thought to boundless realms?

>>53054121
>implying metalworker was only a problem turn 1
>implying that was a common scenario

Come on now.

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>>53053961
>Do you prefer WOTC banlist or Sheldon & Co. banlist?
Hard to say. I'd rather have Primetime and Primordial banned than fast mana, but it's ridiculous that Food Chain and Doomsday are legal in the Sheldon list.

>"Post Your Decklist Faggot"
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/t-o-x-i-c/

This deck has been exceeding expectations. It plays so well on the defense, and has a ton of combo potential. I'm considering making it less combo-y and adding more utility. I'm considering Spidersilk Armor to let my snakes block for me in the air, too.

>>53053961
>>53054521
>Do you prefer WOTC banlist or Sheldon & Co. banlist?

Shouldn't the WotC banlist really be compared to the Duelcommander one? They're both supposed to be built for the sake of 1v1.

>>53054893
Did you not read the article? It's for both 1v1 and multiplayer. Online only for now, but they have a bunch of data on their side and are going to be changing the list by doing that.

The biggest thing I am excited for is the banning of fast mana, particularly Sol ring. If they stop putting it in commander products Sheldor may ban it as well. Heck there is the possibility the two could be unified under wotcs banner.

>>53054521

>I'd rather have Primetime and Primordial banned than fast mana

i dont understand how anybody can have this opinion

>but it's ridiculous that Food Chain and Doomsday are legal in the Sheldon list.

right but the magic online list missed a couple important ones like ad nauseam

none of the lists are really acceptable desu

>>53054388
Never really considered it, meta isn't that cutthroat to fully warrant a degenerate deck.

>>53055111
My group saw the banlist and were excited over all the rulings. Not too sure how I feel about certain cards being allowed and the banning of all fast mana really fucks over many of my decks, if it ever becomes official I'll have to either do complete rehauls or just stop playing altogether

>>53055111
>Did you not read the article? It's for both 1v1 and multiplayer.

Yeah, but they said they designed it with 1v1 in mind.

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What are some cards players in your group treat like they're broken and get upset about?

How long until Wotc takes over commander and we get commander GPs?

>>53055218
Pereagrine drake

>>53055218
Luminarch Ascension

>>53055218
Narset

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>>53055218
This fucking thing, the bitching slowed a bit when people started playing red.

>>53055225
Hopefully never.

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I'm actually trying to figure out how to make a second "fun" deck.

One of my decks (Gwafa Hazid) goes out of its way to make EVERYONE draw cards. Players enjoy it at first, but I crave the moments when we start drawing eight cards on our draw steps and someone starts complaining about drawing cards. And that's BEFORE Forced Fruition hits play.

I wish to make another goofy deck like that where everyone's having a good time without it just making the game shorter. Forced combat featuring pic related, maybe?

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what's some neat tech for magosi? i was looking at this and glacial chasm

>>53055656
Crucible of worlds

>>53055218
Ashnod's Altar they are right

>>53055656

>for Magosi

What?

Are there any interesting UR decks? Seems like it's all either spellslinging or combo

>>53055829

what makes a deck "interesting" to you? Some people think jhoira is interesting because there is no commander like her. But other people think jhoira isn't interesting at all because they've seen too many jhoira eldrazi-obliterate decks

>>53055829
UR artifacts can be decent. And Jhoira can be made interesting like the other anon said.

>>53055829
Define interesting

>>53054053
Apparently the MODO list will be for both 1v1 and multiplayer because the fucking software runs on win92 and can't handle two commander banlists or "banned as commander".
So if you play online say goodbye to Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Entomb, Doomsday, Hermit Druid, Oath of Druids, Necropotence, Mind Twist, Moat, Humility, Serra Ascendant, Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, Sensei's Divining Top, Edric, Darevi, Yisan and Zur even if you never play 1v1.

>>53055856
>>53055902
A deck that isn't immediately obvious based on the commander. I've seen far too many Melek/Mizzix storm, Niv Curiosity, or Jhoria Eldrazi.

I'm considering Keranos Clones.

>>53055949
Thank God.

>>53055954
That's not a deck, you've just thrown random cards together with a random commander.

>>53055954
Keranos 60 lands MLD burn could be cool

>>53055954
Play mizzix proliferate.

>>53056029

why 60 lands? keranos just gives you a redraw when you hit a land

>>53056072
That's the idea. You play a bunch of extra lands because you can afford to draw them.

>>53056027
>Zeus
>Keranos
>Both thunder/lightning gods

>Zeus
>Transforms into mortals and animals, then fucks them
>Is a shapeshifter

Don't crush my vision anon

>>53056107
Heliod is actually the Zeus equivalent in Theros.

>>53056098

how are you benefitting from drawing extra lands though? some sort of discard fueled value?

seems like you would want to be getting more keranos bolts instead of more lands off the top

>>53055218
this card is balanced but I hate it because its logistics nightmare that makes its owners turns triple in length, but doesn't let them combo out and win so you get these awful sliwass durdle turns.

Faggots always use it with token spam and its just dice vomit on the table. I think this is my least favourite EDH catd ever.
Fuck Cathars Crusade.

Anybody have a sidisi list?
I'm trying to put together a brood tyrant list that isn't a lab maniac or mill wincon, just assloads of tokens. Any pointers?

>>53056142
Heliod is Chronos.

>>53056142
Difference is with Heliod, "sticking his spear in it" is not a double entendre.

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>>53056338
forgot pic

>>53056308
I don't know what leads you to believe that but you're wrong.

Wich is better for a dragon tribal deck? Atarka or Karrthus? I don't want to use Scion since it ends up being a reanimator deck wich tutors for always the same stuff and that makes for some uninteresting and boring gameplay.

>>53056401
I like the idea of cloning someone's Karrthus and stealing their board.

>>53056401
Never play karthus, you get blown out by clones and he doesn't offer much to you.

>>53056388
He's a paranoid asshole and is writting his own death sentence, self fulfilling prophesy style.
Wouldn't be surprised if his next victim is Kruphix for daring to know there are things more powerful than they are.

>>53055421
>Forced combat featuring pic related, maybe?
Hell yeah mate.

Give them creatures
>Goblin Spymaster
>Varchild's War-Riders
>Hunted Dragon
>Hunted Troll
>Haunted Angel
>Genesis Chamber
>Rite of the Raging Storm
>Akroan Horse

Force them to attack
>Goblin Spymaster
>Fumiko the Lowblood
>Grand Melee
>Goblin Diplomats
>Curse of the Nightly Hunt
>Warmonger Hellkite
>Total War


Make sure they're attack each other instead of you
>Kazuul, Tyrant of Cliffs
>Ghostly Prison
>Sphere of Safety
>Crawlspace
>Raging River
>Moat
>Chaosphere

And then throw in all the damage doublers you can find.

>Do you prefer WOTC banlist or Sheldon & Co. banlist?
I really hope the WOTC banlist catches on in the long run. Everybody knows that Sol Ring is a ridiculous card. When I asked people in the place I play at about it they all agreed. They still play it though. If Sol Ring was gone, there would be way less explosive starts and everyone essentially had an additional slot for cards in their decks, since it is basically auto-include in all decks right now. Also there wouldn't be any more bullshit drama just because certain people have Sol Ring suspiciously often on their starting hand.

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I just realized that I should totally put this in Selvala.

>>53057205
Banning Sol Ring is going to change commander so god damn much
It'll hurt the hell outta me and I'm sure countless anons but you're probably right.
People will be forced to see the true love that is Worn Powerstone

Just saw the Amonkhet trailer for the first time and it was actually hype as fuck. Until Chad shows up, of course. I'm so glad they're gonna move away from the Jacetice League.

>>53057322
They're moving away from their card ratio, not story presence.

Where are people getting fake cards from?

>>53057645
China.

>>53057205
Ancient Tomb, Urzatron, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Grim Monolith and Metalworker are still unbanned

>>53057659
I'll look around. Not looking to sell them or anything, I just want to run commanders with a bunch of colors without spending fuckloads of money so I can have some 2% better odds of getting my colors or some shit.

>>53057752
Why would you ban Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond and Mox Opal? They have serious drawbacks and aren't played that often.

>>53057810
Because "muh fast mana"

>>53057862
The point is that these cards have negative aspects and you actually have to think about wether you want to include them into your deck or not. Sol Ring on the other hand has no drawback whatsoever.

>>53057920
>>53057810
It's pretty clear you don't play at a competitive level because Chrome Mox Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb and often Lotus Petal are auto-includes. Their disadvantages aren't enough to balance out the entire extra turn they grant you.

>>53057588
Aww man. Fuck that. I fucking despise that shitty Mary Sue conglomerate. At least it was only Gerrard with the Weatherlight crew. The rest were actual characters.

I wanna build around all those new discard/cycle tools. What would be the best general for it? Obviously would have to be at least B/U because Archdemon and Drake Haven.

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>finally got out of the "can't stop building new shitbrews" swamp and focus on one deck
>order a bunch of cards for it
>EDH night tonight and I don't want to play my main deck until I get the new cards and the other decks are uninteresting
>but I still really want to play
What do?

>>53058071
Zur is definitely the best because Astral Slide.

>>53058044
I just want someone to die, please. I dont give much of a shit about mtg's story because it's badly written anyway, but the blatant LGBT reddit pandering gets on my nerves. I want at least one of those asinine characters to die a painful, slow death. Hopefully featuring one of bolas's horns up someone's ass.

>>53058145
Gideon basically has to die at this point.

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Is there a reason why this card is $30? I get it's just grants you the win after two turns and you can excelerate it. But why the high price tag?

>>53058105
Sometimes I ask a friend to let me borrow one of his decks if im bored with mine.

>>53058105
suicide

>>53058105
Power through with the main deck, it'll make playing with the new cards even more satisfying when they arrive

>>53058153
Shame it's not gonna be Nissa or Chandra. The latter in particular is one of the worst written characters I've ever seen.

>>53058105
Ask if they feel like mixing it up with like Planechase or something.

>>53058157
>>53058181
Playing a casual tournament at my lgs so these won't do even if they're nice.

>>53058159
>>53058160
I'll probably go with one of these.

>>53058154

>I get it's just grants you the win after two turns

I think you'll find that it says "Draw"

>>53058153
They're not going to kill 2 monowhite walkers in a row. Liliana will die so they can bring her back as a lich 2 blocks later before Gideon gets offed.

>>53054337
>>53054274
But is it overpowered or just boring and linear?

>>53056513
Heliod is obviously a mix between Helios/Apollo and Zeus. He might have the writing his own death sentence part down, but that's where all the similarities end.

>>53058221
If you didn't win, then I won.

>>53058105
this. helps mix it up and gives you a chance to see how their decks play more >>53058157

>>53053961
>Do you prefer WOTC banlist or Sheldon & Co. banlist?
honestly i think neither one of them is that great. WotC is so out of touch with their player base that nothing they ever put out would help anything and they would probably use it more to funnel people into playing their yearly precons. sheldon and co. are too slow to react to things and the banning of stuff based on their personal experiences is a dumb way to do it. they also see to ban things that dont make sense or need to be banned imo

>>53057205
sol ring isnt banned because the second you ban it a stupidly more expensive card would replace it. it wouldnt "open a new slot" in decks, it would just make decks more expensive

>>53058154
its a reserve list card

>>53058634
You're retarded. If there were a card that would "replace" Sol Ring, everyone would just be playing Sol Ring and that card together already.

>>53058659
you mean like gilded lotus and dynamo? ya, fuck off retard

>>53058687
You're actually retarded. Tons of people play gilded lotus and dynamo in addition to sol ring.

>>53058687
Neither of those cards are half as much of a problem as Sol Ring, and so neither of them are half as appealing. If you ban Sol Ring, you're not going to get every single player who had been using it to slot in either one of those cards. The people who want Thran Dynamo and Gilded Lotus are probably already playing it, and you might get a few players who'd put them in if they lost Sol Ring, but it's not going to be a systematic 1:1 replacement.

>>53058390
Prize suport would be divided in a way that does not support that conclusion.

>>53056763
Moat seems like it kind of defeats the purpose, but the deck looks interesting.

>All the arguments about Gitrog
>tfw you built Gitrog right when it came out
>tfw deck is more light stax/turbofog 75% than modern Gitrog
>tfw it rings up at ~300 on tappedout when the argument was whether or not 600 was too cheap for Gitrog
>Crucible, Loam, and Azusa but no fetches

If the damn thing didn't work just fine in practice I would be incredibly embarrassed right now.

If they ban sol ring, the players that can afford mana crypt will laugh at you.

>>53058842
They already do you fuckwit.

>>53058754
>this entire post
Semantics. If you needed mana, and sol ring was unavailable, you'd look at t2 options like worn powerstone, hedron archive, pristine talisman and whatnot.

Without fast mana, decks that need lots of mana would just splash green for basic land ramp.

>>53058842
If you can't afford 30 bucks for one of the best cards ever printed, then maybe you should get a job.

>>53058851
Touchy.

>>53058803
It's more of a personal victory.

>>53058853
>splash green
Let me just splash some green in my Breya Deck then.

>>53058853
Except you can't just splash green and still play the commander you want to play. It's not really a thing in commander unless you want to change your deck.

>>53058876
I have two of the original prints. I'm not lobbying for any bans. Mearly pointing out the futility of it. Everyone seems so butt hurt over sol ring. Why shouldn't the penniless have access to some baller acceleration?

>>53058902
>>53058909
Sometimes you need to make difficult choices, and the people who are prone to bitch about it, would just splash green. Who says 5c child of alara artifacts with secret breya won't be a thing.

>>53058911
Don't get me wrong, I don't think sol ring should be banned. If ring and crypt were banned, top tier decks would get less consistent, but instead of complaining about turn 3-4 consistent wins, people would just start complaining about turn 4-5 consistent wins. The problem is never going to end.

Besides, most of the EDH playerbase fucking hates those decks anyway, finding other people to play with who don't have insanely strong decks isn't that hard.

>>53058853
Sol Ring is a tempo-positive play that lets you play 4 drops on turn 2. The arguments against it is that it makes games too swingy, which you are reinforcing by saying that the only replacements are tempo-negative mana rocks that ramp you for less than the mana invested. People play Sol Ring because it's retardedly powerful, regardless of what extent they do or don't need mana ramp, because the opportunity cost is negligible compared to the enormous benefit.

>>53058842
Let's not pretend anyone is actually going to be banning Sol Ring and leaving Mana Crypt legal.

>>53058954
I maintain that because Commander is intended to be a goofy multiplayer format, your playgroup should self-adjust for Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. In my area, a Turn 1 Sol Ring turns the game into 3v1 for a while, so you have to weigh whether or not a turn 2 4-drop is worth 5 turns of being the Archenemy.

>>53058876
In what universe are you finding 30 dollar Mana Crypts?

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>>53058853
>you'd look at t2 options like worn powerstone, hedron archive, pristine talisman and whatnot.

>>53058942
>Sometimes you need to make difficult choices

So what you're saying is that, if they banned Sol Ring, people would actually look between a range of different options or even change their decks completely? I'm sorry, wasn't your whole argument at the start that it wouldn't change anything, "it would just make decks more expensive"?

>>53058303
Both. It's not as explosive as some of the other combo decks, but it's very very consistent, which makes it very strong.

>>53058997
If you buy it damaged the most recent printing gets pretty low.

>>53058842
>If they ban sol ring, the players that can afford mana crypt will laugh at you.

People are only talking about banning Sol Ring because the MODO list did it, and guess what chucklefuck? They banned Mana Crypt too.

>>53059015
"Buy it damaged" does not make it a 30 dollar card.

>>53058967
>People play Sol Ring because it's retardedly powerful, regardless of what extent they do or don't need mana ramp, because the opportunity cost is negligible compared to the enormous benefit
Only in the first 4 turns. A t5 non-combo sol ring is a pretty mediocre play, regardless of how powerful the card is. The people bitching about sol ring tend to bring up early turn magical christmasland plays, and while they're right, it's a much smaller issue than people imply.

>>53058998
>I'm sorry, wasn't your whole argument at the start that it wouldn't change anything, "it would just make decks more expensive"?
Not everyone on the internet is the same person. Removing sol ring just shifts the meta to more inaccessible mana rocks, or objectively worse t2 cards for those who can't afford them.

>>53058902
You know where he's going with that argument, dont act like a retard. If fast mana is banned then that means even more people would start playing decks with green in them.

>>53058742
yes, thats literally what he was asking

>>53053961
>Do you prefer WOTC banlist or Sheldon & Co. banlist?
RC is bad but its the best we got
it would be better if they didnt leave the powerlevel up to a (((social contract))) but it works now so I cant complain too much

>>53059055
Which is why it's double stupid that the MODO banlist hits Crypt and Ring, but leaves Prime Time and Sylvan unbanned.

>>53054012
is mind over matter really that expensive?
its pretty much counters, wizards and mind over matter

>>53058876
i can afford 30 bucks, i however cannot just go out and buy a mana crypt for all 27 of my EDH decks. i put that money towards actual cards instead and the 3 dollar price point of sol ring enables that

>>53059053
>Removing sol ring just shifts the meta to more inaccessible mana rocks, or objectively worse t2 cards for those who can't afford them.

The other "more inaccessible" Mana rocks either come out two or more turns later or are also already banned in the WotC list. Like I said before, not everyone is going to look at the empty slot and say "Well, clearly this is where I should be putting a Thran Dynamo now", because Thran Dynamo is not half the card Sol Ring is.

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>>53058997
In The berenstein bears universe.

>>53059071
Honestly, I don't really see a better option for them. At its heart, Commander is a casual format for fun, not a competitive one. They'd rather just boot a small handful of "the worst offenders" as a baseline, and give the blessing for individual playgroups to modify and deviate if it makes the game more fun for them.

The other options would be "Fuck it, everyone decide your own banlist", which would make Commander WILDLY different from place to place, to the point that each shop would basically be playing their own version of it, or to have an ironclad banlist that would almost certainly be too oppressive.

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>>53055218
people hate her
I honestly dont know why

>>53059098
So buy one and keep an empty sleeve in all your 27 decks, doof. Or ask your group "Are you guys okay with me proxying Mana Crypt in all my decks to save time? I actually -own- one, so it's just to save the hassle of unsleeving and resleeving it every time I swap decks."

>>53059098
You could put it in a toploader and carry it around alongside your deck, while putting proxies in your actual decks. Then when you play the proxy you replace it on the battlefield with the toploader.

>>53059104
30 Euro is not 30 dollars.

>>53059100
>can't afford them.
signets are a buck a piece
fellawar stone is less
diamond cycle is pennies as is mind stone

if you break the bank on 2 drop mana rocks you are doing it wrong

>>53059110
Probably because she's irritating to deal with. You pretty much -have- to use a board-wipe on her, since you can't Edict her and she has Hexproof. It's also common to use her for Voltron because she's got built-in evasion and protections, and she's very aggressively costed. T4 Sigarda, T5 Shield of the Oversoul leaves you with very few options to remove a 3-turn clock.

>>53059137
The Diamond cycle is also trash, and Felwar stone shouldn't go in a 2 color deck.

>>53059132
No, it's 32,76 dollars, if the 2,76 extra makes it too expensive for you, then you should ask your mom for some extra allowance.

>>53059100
That's a fair statement, but I was thinking voltaic key setups, using ashnods, or 2 mana generating dorks to offset it. While that does shift the meta up, I feel it's going to push people into more degenerate strategies to compensate for a card people don't really use in the first place. Sure, every deck HAS a sol ring, but not every deck is brago slapping strionic, sol ring, and myr battlesphere, and honestly there aren't that many combos that need sol ring to go off. I only use it in brago because I can tutor it with Tezz for next to nothing

>>53059122
ACTUAL CARDS ONLY PROXIES BANNED GET OUT OF MY SHOP REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>53057205
>Do you prefer WOTC banlist or Sheldon & Co. banlist?
I want a WOTC-run banlist that isn't designed to be used for two very different formats.

>>53059155
1) I never said it's too expensive for me. Not everyone that disagrees with you is the same person.

2) You said it was 30 dollars. It is not 30 dollars. That's also for a damaged copy, and from MKM, which means if you're outside Europe, it's gonna cost a significant amount to have shipped.

>>53059168
I don't like proxies much, but I'm fully okay with "I own this card, but don't want to move it between decks or buy several copies of it" for staples like duals, fetches, shocks, and Mana Crypt.

>>53059162
>I feel it's going to push people into more degenerate strategies to compensate for a card people don't really use in the first place.

If there were more beneficial strategies anywhere near as easy as just slapping Sol Ring on the table for practically no cost, people would already be doing them. Getting rid of Sol Ring isn't going to lift some blinders that were keeping everyone from doing things that are "more degenerate" than Sol Ring, because Sol Ring is plenty degenerate by itself.

>>53059053
>A t5 non-combo Sol Ring is a pretty mediocre play, regardless of how powerful the card is.
As long as I'm not in full topdeck mode, I'm happy whenever I draw a Sol Ring, regardless of the turn. Being net positive on mana and instantly ramping is fucking ridiculous for just about every deck, even more so if you run any mass bounce.

>>53059211
I own a 9.0 graded Mishra's Workshop and my playgroup lets me proxy is because we all agree that there's no way in hell it should be getting shuffled.

>>53059228
Well yeah, "net positive" on mana is rarely a bad thing, but it doesn't change the fact that while a Turn 1 Sol Ring is a huge tempo swing, a turn 5 or 6 Sol Ring is only marginally better than topdecking a land. It's not bad, but it's nowhere near the tempo swing it is in the earlier turns. Sol Ring's power as a topdeck diminishes rapidly the longer the game goes on.

>>53059203
>That's also for a damaged copy
>americlaps think NM- is "damaged"

>>53059260
Reasonable.

For a while my group was fine letting me use my Mishra's Toy Workshop as a Mishra's Workshop, but it was too degen and made me feel like an ass, so I stopped.

>>53059203
That's not damaged, that's near mint. Good luck finding any actual Mint cards on any platform.

Also, I rounded it down because I'm not gonna say "if you can't afford 32,76 bucks", don't be contrarian for the sake of it, you fucking goon.

>>53059053
>tend to bring up early turn magical christmasland plays
sol ring on turn 1 completely changes the way the game is played
with 4 players at the table
each of them playing sol ring, vault and crypt theres something like a 21% chance that someone gets it in their opening hand or top decks it first turn.

>>53059264
>green puke face is 'near mint'

>>53059260
>there's no way in hell it should be getting shuffled.
Well, that and it's already in the sealed sleeve.

>>53059269
Dollars are not euros.

And, again, that's ONLY IF YOU LIVE IN THE FUCKING EU. If you live outside of Europe, it'll cost considerably more to have it shipped.

>>53059272
>Being this fucking autistic
You can check the website to verify, you fucking goon.

>>53059213
But it's not. Sol ring is only degenerate in the first two turns unless you're using it as a combo piece.

Think about it this way:
>little timmy finds out sol ring is banned, so he can't magical christmasland a turn 3 xenagos
>so timmy goes home, pouts for a while and googles what things he can run to replace sol ring
>in his research, he stumbles upon various infinite mana combos, ways to cheat fatties into play, and degenerate artifact setups
>some time later, little timmy shows up to his flgs with a Maelstrom Wanderer, deck that's really a combo deck, and proceeds to shit on all the other timmies and johnnies, all because he can't run sol ring

>>53059292
>I expect you to provide my argument for me

>>53059153
>The Diamond cycle is also trash
no its not, its colored mana its going to need to be less aggressive than colorless mana rocks.
now if you want to talk about shitty mana rocks I would bring up how shit worn powerstone is again but the last 4 or so generals devolved into shitposting and arguing about gay shit so I will refrain from talking about it any further

>>53059293
Eh, "I can't use Sol Ring so I accidentally a combo" is a bit of a stretch.

>>53059286
Why are you back to this point again, we've already been over the price in dollarydoos.

Also, just move, you fucking goon.

>>53059293
anon, honey, are you feeling ok?

>>53059302
The Diamonds are trash because if you need color-fixing you're in 2+ colors, which means you have one or more Signets available to you. Or you could run any of the many 3-mana rocks that provide multiple colors of mana like Darksteel Ingot or Chromatic Lantern. They may not give you 4 mana on turn 3, but they will give you 5 on turn 4, and provide much better fixing without eating up 3 slots in your deck. Powerstone isn't great, but if you're wanting sheer ramping power rather than specific colors, it's going to provide more oomph than the other 3 mana rocks.

>>53059309
Dont respond to him

>>53059293
Holy fuck is this slope made out of K-Y Jelly?

>>53059293
He was never a Timmy then. He was just a Johnny who didn't know it yet. Anyone willing to roll up with a combo deck and have fun playing it already has the Johnny in them waiting to come out.

>>53058911
Nobody should be able to use that kind of baller acceleration, I think most of the people who want to ban Sol Ring also want to ban similar fast mana like Mana Crypt.

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>>53059296
>"I expect you to verify my argument for me"
>While you just made up a random fact about the obviously smiling green emoji meaning "damaged"
>I'm supposed to disprove all the retarded bullshit you fabricate, instead of you just not fabricating information out of nowhere

Seems logical.

>>53058273
>Lili
>ever dying
If anything she'll be the last woman standing from the bunch. Gideon has a great chance of biting the dust, followed by Nissa, Chandra and Jace. Maybe Ajani. But not Lili. pls ;_;

>>53059331
if you ban Sol Ring, you basically have to ban Crypt, because it's even more degenerate as far as ramping goes, and it's not nearly as accessible.

The only logic of banning one but not the other is banning Crypt instead of Ring because Crypt is stronger and hasn't been in every single Commander precon for the past 5 years.

>>53059303
Not really. It starts with Elvish Piper and Dragon Arch, then quickly branches out into tutoring bombs and Maelstrom. The same can be true for every deck timmy plays, and timmy is only timmy by virtue of playing cards on a curve. The second he hits reanimator/artifact ramp/cheating into play strategies, he's gone too far to salvage his playgroup, and it takes very little googling to wind up in that state.

>>53059352
Well, if Liliana died there'd be a whole shebang about her soul contracts with the remaining demons, but I don't see that happening here.

>>53059053
>Only in the first 4 turns. A t5 non-combo sol ring is a pretty mediocre play, regardless of how powerful the card is. The people bitching about sol ring tend to bring up early turn magical christmasland plays, and while they're right, it's a much smaller issue than people imply.
And how good is tapping out to play a Thran Dynamo on turn 5? Or what about a land, that you can't play, because you have several lands in your hand? Yeah duh, it's a mana source, it's bad when you need gas and/or already have enough mana. It's better than pretty much every other mana source in the format though, without having a color or deckbuilding restriction like a Cradle.

Sol Ring, as a mana source, is nearly always good, and is completely insane every now and then. The problem is exactly that it has a high floor and an enormous ceiling.

>>53059368
Yeah there's that. There's at least one or two demons she still needs to kill and they would totally bid her soul to their command if she dies as a payment.

>>53059324
the reason you play diamonds is to have 4 mana on turn 3
specifically if you have a 4 drop general
they are worse in mono colored decks Ill grant you that but they still have a place
You should be running 10 accelerators anyway and until they start printing better 2 drop colored mana rocks they are still going to be good cards.
also Darksteel ingot is usually cast on turn 3
giving you 5 mana on turn 4 if you hit all of your lands
but so do the diamonds, So i guess my question is, would you rather tap out on turn 2 or turn 3, what are you casting or countering on turn two that is so important that you will wait to tap out till turn 3?

>>53059359
>Timmy is only timmy by virtue of playing cards on a curve
"Timmy" does not mean "Moron who plays Craw Wurms on turn 6". The psychographics roughly group what it is that players want out of the game.

Timmys play to experience something. They like big bomby cards because they're FUN, and have a big impact on the game. Their goal isn't necessarily winning, but the visceral FEELING of playing the game.

Johnnys play to express something. They want to win, but they want to win with style- they want to win on their terms. Playing magic is a way for them to show off their creativity.

Spike plays to prove something. Spike plays to win, and will play whatever deck is best for that. They will copy decks from online, they will borrow other decks. The thrill to them is the COMPETITION- they don't just want to win, they want to outplay the opponent.

>>53059386
There's 2 left, yeah. She already offed Kothophed and Grizzlebrand, and that leave Razaketh (who is on Amonkhet) and Belzenlok, who we haven't seen. Lili has to die without defeating Razaketh for the whole "multiple claims on her soul" twist, but there's still the whole Raven Man thing, and the Chain Veil. I think she narrowly defeats Razaketh next set (or narrowly avoids DYING, either way thanks to Jace and Friends) and has to come clean about her whole situation.

>>53059409
If all you want is "4 mana on turn 3" for your Commander, then I can cede the Diamonds have a point- but that point is not "better ramp" or "better fixing", the point is "I need 4 mana on turn 3, specifically".

As GENERAL ramp, I'd rather my mana rock come down a turn or two later and provide more than 1 mana (Hedron Archive, Worn Powerstone). For general fixing, I'd rather it come down a turn later and provide more than one color.

For "I want 4 mana on turn 3", they're a good choice, because you have very few others. But for general ramping or fixing, they're far outclassed by things that come down just a turn later.

>>53059437
Johnnyspike>Timmyjohnny>Timmyspike>Johnny>Timmy>Spike
Basically, if you like winning by outplaying someone with your shitty busget deck, then you're better than a """competitive""" EDH player who plays Derevi Stax

>>53059437
>The thrill to them is the COMPETITION- they don't just want to win, they want to outplay the opponent.
You were right up until that last line. Spikes DO just want to win.
Spikes don't care about outplaying their opponents, they just want to win. They have no qualms about playing overpowered degenerage cards — you can't really say they "outplayed" anybody by tutoring for a combo win on turn 4.
Many competitive combo Spike decks require no threat assessment, politics, boardstate interaction, or anything else that could possibly be considered skill.

Spikes don't want a battle of wits or strategy; they don't care about outplaying their opponent. Spikes just want to win. Winning is why they play magic.

>>53059571
>I know better than the person who classified these psychographics

>>53055218
Contamination. No one in my playgroup runs instant speed removal.

im kind of new to these terms.

timmy is the aggro player?
Johnny is the combo player?
vorthos is the lore nerd?
what is the name for control

>>53059671
Timmy is less aggro and more big bombs and fun stuff. They can have fun with combos provided that the results are big and flashy. Johnny is usually combo, but it's mostly about card synergies and interactions in a creative way. They want to make their own combos and feel joy in playing them out. Vorthos is the lore guy. Spike is competitive "do whatever it takes to win" guy. Control falls under some combination of those.

>>53059671
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/snack-time-vorthos-2005-08-31

>>53059671
It's not so much about the archetypes they play, as WHY they play.

Timmy plays to experience. They tend to prefer big-ass creatures and big-ass spells, but technically a Timmy could enjoy combos or control decks too, if they're mainly after the experience of playing them.

Johnnys tend to get pigeonholed into "Combo", but really they're just creatives who play to express, and combo tends to be where most find that niche. Some Johnnys are the types who will FORCE a card or strategy to work, no matter how stupid it looks (like, say, Lantern Control). They can also be aggro or control players, it's just that "combo" tends to hit the notes they want the most.

Spike will play whatever wins. Even if they don't LIKE the deck, they are playing to win, and t hat's what matters to them. If an aggro deck is their strongest option, they play aggro. If a combo deck is the strongest option, they play combo.

Vorthos and Melvin exist on a different axis. The Timmy/Johnny/Spike WHY you enjoy the game- they call them "Psycographic Profiles". Melvin and Spike are "Aesthetic profiles"- these explore WHAT you enjoy of the game. Vorthos is the 'flavor' player, focuesd on the Creative. They appreciate cards with flavor and creative consistency. Typically divided into 5 classes: The gamer appreciates top-down resonance and in-game flavor. The Artist appreciates the visual aspects (card layout, art, etc). The Writer appreciates the written copy for Magic. The Oracle appreciates real world to fantasy world blending via shit like cosplay. The Dreamer appreciates the lore.

Melvin is the 'mechanic' player, focused on Design and Development rather than Creative. They appreciate cards with interesting interactions and strong mechanics; they might like Firemaw Kavu or Stuffy Doll.

>>53053961
After seeing what WOTC did to the commander banlist, I'm really glad that Sheldon and the rules committee run it instead.

>banned Arcum and Zur
>banned sol ring, a card which is pretty much the face of the format at this point
>banned top, because looking at the top 3 every turn is OP
>banned necropotence

>>53058018
Bruh they are literally only great in combo decks and some stax decks built for them. The disadvantage they have IS real, chrome Mox is below 10$ right now and I don't see it everywhere because for many decks it's only merely good early game, and worse than a land late game.

>>53059871
I mean, I get banning Sol Ring in a 1v1 format, because the main things "balancing" it in multiplayer are that playing it early shifts it from a free-for-all into a game of Archenemy, and that it's not great to topdeck late game. Neither of those are factors in 1v1 games that are over-ish by turn 6.

>>53059885
>combo decks and some stax decks
You literally just described the upper eschelons of Competitive EDH. If you go 100%, it's pretty bullshit like that.

>>53059648
And none of them play rocks?

>>53059763
>Johnnys tend to get pigeonholed into "Combo", but really they're just creatives who play to express, and combo tends to be where most find that niche. Some Johnnys are the types who will FORCE a card or strategy to work, no matter how stupid it looks (like, say, Lantern Control). They can also be aggro or control players, it's just that "combo" tends to hit the notes they want the most.

A practical example is that Johnny is often the sort of player would would create a deck like Living End, because they enjoy the interactions and synergy between the cards. Then Spike takes to a tournament after he's seen that it works.

>>53059871
>banned top, because looking at the top 3 every turn is OP

You're retarded. Top got banned again for the same reason it always gets banned. It slows down the game and is shit to use on MODO. Power level concerns are only rarely a consideration with Top, it's almost always logistics that get it killed.

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Finished that Steal deck idea I had last thread. Not really happy how blue-dominated it feels, but I guess that can't be helped due to all the "You control enchanted X " enchantments are in blue.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/thieverydek/

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>>53060112
Jonny builds decks
Spike buys decks
Timmy has a pile of cards
Melvin isnt like the other girls :3

>>53060112
Living End is largely just combo anyway.
I'd say a good example of an "Aggro Johnny" would be decks like the INN/RTR Aristocrats, or Modern Affinity. There aren't really explicit combos, but Johnny loves the idea he can build up his board and then feed it all to an Arcbound Ravager that fees it to an Inkmoth Nexus for a one-shot kill. Spike obviously loves it too, but for different reasons.

>>53060149
Only dipshits take a huge amount of time looking at the top each turn. It takes me like 10 seconds, tops. It's literally only banned because people don't know how to play efficiently with it.

>>53060154
I'd recommend looking for some green mana stuff like a Birds or Explosive Vegetation if you want to get use out Yasova. Bitch is mana hungry.

>>53060154
Life's Legacy for a cheaper card draw sac outlet?

>>53060154
>>53060272
Also, learn the rulings of Yasova back and forth, because people don't know them. She targets a creature with less power. Your opponent has a chance to boost that creature up so you can't steal it. Then you pay mana. If your opponent does anything to their creature's power at that point it doesn't matter. It's yours.

>>53060458
You've worded that kind of poorly.
All you need to say is "You choose whether or not to pay the mana for Yasova during the resolution of the ability". It's not "if they do anything, it doesn't matter", because if you've gotten to the point where you're paying mana, your opponent no longer has the opportunity to "do anything" to their creature before it's put under your control.

>>53060558
You're right. Early morning and I'm confusing myself, but the important thing is that you can't be tricked into paying for Yasova's cost .

>>53060458
>target
>Then you pay mana
how sure are you of that because the text says
At the beginning of combat on your turn, you may pay 1Blue or RedBlue or Red. If you do, gain control of target creature
if you do not pay mana when the ability goes on the stack nothing gets targeted
I dont see any errata for that either

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>testing my suped up ghave deck out for the first time at the flgs
>t1 mana crypt into sol ring, play a forest, drop explosive vegetation
>t2 swamp, doubling season and ashnod's
>t3 plains, ghave and blood artist, everyone groans and scoops
>game 2 I dropped Crystaline Crawler with Corpsejack Menace and kalonian hydra out, shat out 10 billion mana with ghave and won in similar fashion
>game 3 cathar's crusade and champion of lambholt hit the field with aceticism
I think I'm in love anons. Any way to survive as the arch enemy beyond just being faster than everyone?

>>53060656
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2015/02/yasova-dragonclaw-pays-for-the-trigger-only-on-resolution/

>Yasova’s controller puts the trigger on the stack and chooses a target. Then you have a chance to respond with something like Collateral Damage or Feat of Resistance. If you do, Yasova’s ability can’t resolve, so the controller won’t pay any mana, and will be able to spend it some other way. If you let the controller pay the mana, control changes before you get priority, so you won’t be able to cast Collateral Damage by sacrificing that creature anymore.
>Yasova’s controller puts the trigger on the stack and chooses a target.
It's confusing, but you actually choose the target before you pay.

>>53060656
From my experience on Forge: Target a critter with less power, then on resolution you pay 1 U/R U/R and steal or pay nothing and don't steal. Also the ability fizzles if the power condition is not met anymore like >>53060458 said, albeit in a confuse way.

>>53059110
This bitch is mean. You don't need any other reason do you?

>>53060753
oh i see because the ability needs a target

>>53060689
Not really. Ghave is going to universally be seen as a threat after people have seen him once. You're going to eat all of the removal and counters unless you can outspeed them.

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>>53060689
>sol ring, crypt opening hand
>I think I'm in love anons

>>53060656
Not that guy, but I am 100% sure. It's not the most intuitive, but Yasova's ability is put on the stack all at once.

You enter combat, then choose a target with less power than Yasova. Every player gets a chance to respond and if nobody does, then you resolve the ability and choose whether or not to pay mana. If you do, you get the creature and it's too late for anyone to stop you.

>>53060753
That makes no sense, I feel if she were worded in reverse it would be easier, but having the reference to payment of mana before ever targeting anything is weird.

At the beginning of combat on your turn, you may gain control of target creature an opponent controls with power less than Yasova Dragonclaw's power until end of turn if you pay 1(U/R)(U/R), untap that creature, and it gains haste until end of turn.

Either way, thanks for the link anon

>>53053961
MTGSalvation likes to have anti grouphug discussion in their forums. When I stated that they were all tryhard spikes, they "frankly, too umbrage" at my comment

MTGSalvation is a fucking joke

>>53060781
Alright, is it worth even running removal?

I have a toolbox setup filled with things like swords to plowshares, abrupt decay, wrath of god, vindicate, pretty much everything you could think about. I know I could remove almost all of it and swap them out for tutors/combo peices, but a deck that wins or loses on t4 seems... boring. I've never really built a combo deck, I'm more of a tempo player as it is.

>>53060798
And explosive vegetation, that was my favorite part. To top it all off, I top decked doubling season t2.

Also, that .gif is fantastic.

>>53060885
>but a deck that wins or loses on t4 seems... boring
This is pretty much what Ghave is, though.

>>53060885
If I'm in Black and White, I run anguished unmaking, utter end, mortify, and vindicate, always.
I wouldn't run Abrupt decay, the format it too top heavy, I would swap it out for a putrefy probably.

Also, every deck should have a few wraths, there will be times where your board will suck and other's will be awesome.
Common wraths I run are Wrath of God, Damnation, Austere Command, Final Judgement, Descend Upon The Sinful, Terminus, Toxic Deluge.

>>53060885
Removal is definitely worth it if you want to go more the tempo route. Abzan and Mardu are the king colors for removal and have lots of options. Whenever people see Ghave, they will almost always paint a target on you if they've been playing Commander for long because there is a stigma associated with him. Almost anything you do will turn into combo because Ghave just accidentally combos with a lot of things. He's pretty much one of the quintessential combo commanders because of this. You'll have to be careful with how you make the deck and even then you'll have to play several games with people before they start to see you as less of a threat. Big combos like you talked about in >>53060689 will be pretty common (aside from opening Crypt and Sol Ring) and you'll have to be prepared to take some hate for that. At times, it will be hard NOT to win on t4 or lose to removal being focused on you unless you're deliberately holding back.

>"Post Your Decklist Faggot" Edition
You got it sister

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/omnath-the-enchanted/

My current favourite deck to play, Omnath ramp with a focus on enchantments. So much fun and relatively fair to play against.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mishras-unstoppable-artifice/

Looking for fedback on this one. First artifact-based commander list I brewed up, I love the colours because they contain all my favourite artifact support and Mishra makes for an interesting commander.

>>53060836
The order of the words don't matter. You always choose targets as one of the earliest parts of putting an ability on the stack, and payments like Yasova's are always done on resolution.

>>53056409
>>53056413
Didn't thought about that. Is it worth to run Surrak instead of Atarka just to get temur Sarkhan and some blue staples into the deck?

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>>53060931
>>53060960
I think I made a horrible mistake.

A few months ago I got a moderately good job, and after cracking both a verdant catacombs and marsh flats out of MM3, I recently decided to invest in a few big money staples for a "competitive" deck that would also be fun. I already have an Uril deck for 1v1 shenanigans, and I almost never touch it because it's just so linear. I ramp into Uril, throw a bunch of auras on him, then instantly win when people aren't prepared to deal with a hand full of cantrips in one turn. I built Ghave because he was versatile and can also be played like a value engine, but I didn't realize that it was going to turn into a boring pile of cardboard no one would want to play with, just like Uril. I guess you get exactly what you pay for.

Now that being said, since I have a half decent mana base and can remove some of the mana fixing, is it worth running things like Dirty Mike and Skittles, if I have them available?

>>53060953
That's actually really helpful, I know I need a deluge, and I have most of those cards, particularly terminus. Here's what I'm running for removal right now:

>Moritify, Putrefy, Path to Exile, Tribute to the Wild, Languish, merciless eviction, Vindicate, and Wrath of god

>>53061156
You can build fair Ghave, you just have to intentionally kneecap yourself.

>>53061156
What >>53061181 said. Ghave can be fair, but you have to basically cut off both of your legs and include anti-synergies to do it. Ghave by nature creates incidental combos and tends to be very linear despite his flexibility. I think it was gA anon who had a no-combo Ghave list if you want a reference. I believe he called it "Mushroom Samba" or something like that. You'll run into this problem with any high tier commander. They're high tier because they usually fit one strategy so well and enable things that most players don't really have fun against. They tend to be linear. My advice would be that if you want to stay in Abzan colors then you should pick a weaker commander in the same colors who doesn't combo with 80% of your deck. There's also a lot of fun to be had in finding new techs and combos with a less-than-optimal commander.

>>53061181
I have other fair decks. Feldon is pretty fun, and most people get a good kick out of my Aboshan shapeshifter and octopus tribal, until it actually wins a game. In for a penny, in for a pound; I might as well make gave something hilariously overpowered. At least it isn't atraxa.

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>>53061207
>gA anon

>>53061156
I'm not sure how I feel about Tribute to the Wilds, Path to Exile, or Languish

Tribute seems decent, I just prefer the ability to exile or have other uses.

Path, since you're in white/black, you have access to non-creature exile (Utter End/Anguished Unmaking) and unless you're in a really competetive meta that requires cheap creature answers, I would probably swap out Path for one of the two I suggested.

Languish is good against certain decks and pointless against many others, when I think of Ghave I think of millions of 1/1s, and languish might often hurt you more than other people.

But yeah, you're in Abzan, honestly probably the best color combination for board control and removal.

>>53061224
Galvanic autogenerator. He's still an anon, he's just also a filthy namefag who happens to be a decent guy.

>>53061232
>I'm not sure how I feel about Path to Exile
You're "not sure how you feel" about one of the best single-target removal spells in the fucking game?

Are you high?

Can you guys recommend any tech for either damage prevention/redirection or pingers? I'm cooking up a bad Razia deck that revolves around those mechanics but I'm having a hard time spicing it up. Stuff like Embermaw Hellion

>>53061253
If he has a name, he can't be an anon.

>>53061262
He posts anonymously unless his status as a judge is actually important to what he is posting.

>>53061254
When you have access to Anguished Unmaking and Utter End, I would rather have higher mana cost than more narrow targets, especially considering around half of EDH decks don't rely massively on creatures and rely more on lock pieces or value permanents

I'm just saying, unless your meta says you need cheap creature answers, I think it's more beneficial for that slot to be more encompassing

>>53061310
>Especially considering aorund half of EDH decks don't rely massively on creatures

Again, are you high? If you're in white, you should be playing Path and Swords because they're just absurdly strong creature removal. The fact that you can ALSO run Anguished Unmaking doesn't mean you shouldn't run Path.

Also, suggesting someone run Utter End over Path is ridiculous.

>>53061207
That's a really good point, if I want to do fun stuff I should pick a fun commander, particularly if I want to spend money on it. Any suggestions for a goofy commander in strong colours? I feel like Tresserhorn is going to be far too degenerate, but maybe something grixis or rakdos if that's not asking too much.

>>53061232
Languish is a bit of an afterthought, I run it because it's 4cmc and it hits through indestructible. Same reason I ran tribute, because people would have indestructible things, and Mazirek loves sac triggers. Would terminus or decend upon the sinful fit better? I can throw in a disk, or even Magus of the Disk if I'm feeling uppity. Path to exile is staying put, because it's versatile. It can blow up literally anything that isn't hexproof, and in a pinch I can sac some fungus to fish a basic. More versatile removal may be better, but colour fixing is a pet peeve of mine, particularly since I usually focus on basics.

>>53061380
It depends on whether or not you want to use the same colors or not.

>>53061373
They are absurdly strong, nobody's saying they're not.

I had Path and Swords in every one of my decks that could and I just found them lackluster when I needed to get rid of noncreature permanents.

The statement of AU over Path was if you needed to choose one due to card restraints (You have 101 cards and need to cut something) I would personally cut the path if I found my removal package decent already.

I'm a control player, and I fucking love cheap removal, "Nice avacyn, have 8 life/a basic", but in my meta I need the reach over the efficiency

>>53061380
>Same reason I ran tribute, because people would have indestructible things
I prefer Deglamer.
I'm kind of liking the look of Forsake the Worldy too.

>and Mazirek loves sac triggers
Alright, fair enough.

>>53061380
Yeah, with a basic heavy landbase, always go for the easiest to cast stuff.
With the Terminus/Descend argument, it depends on how much creature tutoring you have in your deck/in your meta.

If you rely on creature tutoring, I would run terminus.
If your meta has a lot of creature tutoring, I would run Descend.

>>53061380
Both Marchesas are fun as commanders and lend themselves to tempo strategies decently well. Queen can be played with a lot of politics and can switch from aggression to control pretty well due to being in Mardu (which has a lot of aggressive cards and removal). Grixis Marchesa is also great because she has enables of lot of resilient strategies.

It got talked about a while back, but Wort, the Raidmother is really unique and fills a niche that no other commander in her colors does. She's a Gruul spellslinger who can throw out lots of big, swingy spells for very little once you get any sort of ramp and a few tokens.

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>>53061551
>Descend
which one?

>>53061579
But sir, that's Descent, not Descend, ya silly shit

>>53061506
It sounds to me like you're in a warped meta where somehow Path and Swords aren't very good due to a lack of creatures, or you're mentally equating Path with Utter End at all times, so when you draw a Path when you need a Disenchant, you find it "lackluster", when you wouldn't have thought that way about any other card in your deck (and likewise, I'd bet you mentally block the times you draw Utter End and need to kill a creature with less than 4 mana, because it doesn't conform to your already-decided bias against Path)

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>>53061579
The one that would make sense being compared to Terminus.

>>53061551
I run a lot of tutoring because it sets up my combos. I think I have worldly tutor, demonic tutor, undead sidisi, and diabolic tutor in there, but I know I also have increasing ambition, behold the beyond and beseech the queen available. Now that being said, my meta runs a lot of tutoring, so exile will always be more valuable, and it's asymmetrical, which is my favorite thing ever.

>>53061533
>deglamer
Now that's some spicy fucking secret tech, thanks anon. Forsake the worldly is nice with the cycling, but 2W seems a little high on the casting cost side when-

>artifact or enchantment

Okay it's not that bad. How do you feel about that 2GW double exile one that was printed in the precons this year?

>>53061576
>Wort
I literally just cracked one and have the goblin token to go along with it. I also have a past in flames, a bunch of lands from an old xenagos deck, and a ton of green cards I'm not currently using. Thanks anon!

>>53061612
There's definitely a chance that I'm biased in favor of Utter End, more than likely due to the meta I'm in, where non-creatures need answers. So it's probably both.

Either way, opinions, man.

>>53061661
No problem, always willing to spread the word of Wort.

>>53061661
>Forsake the worldly is nice with the cycling, but 2W seems a little high on the casting cost

Revoke Existence is alright, if you don't have access to green and don't feel like paying 3 mana for the effect. Sylvan Reclamation is actually 3WG, but even still, it's perfectly fine.

>>53055269
This. Playing with a group of 4 before FNM and two guys scooped when I stuck one on turn two.

>>53061661
>Now that's some spicy fucking secret tech, thanks anon.

Also, before this, I had assumed Deglamer was fairly commonly used. I checked EDHrec and only like 500 decks have it.

>>53061675
But you never presented it as your OPINION. You presented it as objective fact that Utter End is better than Path.

>>53061917
Because EDHrec creates an echo chamber. People go there for advice and build decks based on what they see, which just reinforces them on Rec.

>>53062066

I'm sorry, what?

>>53061506
>I had Path and Swords in every one of my decks that could and I just found them lackluster when I needed to get rid of noncreature permanents.
> I would personally cut the path if I found my removal package decent already.
Opinion

>>53061310
>I would rather have higher mana cost than more narrow targets
>I think it's more beneficial for that slot to be more encompassing
Opinion

>>53061232
>I would probably swap out Path for one of the two I suggested
Opinion

I never once insinuated Utter End was end-all-be-all better than Path, I personally found it better.

I've also remained completely calm while being called high and crazy for ever thinking Path wasn't the holy godsend of mtg history that is the best removal spell in all of existence.

>>53062151
>I've also remained completely calm
Is that why you're still raging at people for not agreeing with you?

thoughts on Sram low cost equipment-combo?

>>53058989

Being archenemy doesn't fucking matter in the slightest, if you get to play a 4 drop turn 2 on the play, while your opponents on sitting on 1 land, there won't be "5 turns of archenemy", the game will be over before the rest of the table can assemble more than 2 or maybe 3 attempts at disrupting you

>>53059107

>ironclad banlist would be too oppressive

fucking why? How is it oppressive to ban stupid oppressive cards?

>>53062172
I honestly can't see how I'm raging
The illusion of keyboard warriors aside, I had an opinion that can easily be overlooked. I like utter end, I think it's a good card and a great removal spell. Anyone in white should run path, however, when in a black/white deck, I like utter end if I had to choose one of the two.
If I lose t3 because my more expensive answer wasn't enough and Yisan comboed off, then fuck, ya got me. If I would lose to Sanguine Bond - Exquisite Blood combo but manage to utter end one away, cool. There's benefits to both, absolutely, and as I've said in almost all my other posts, my meta relies more on non-creature permanents to win, so utter end is more important in my deckbuilding than path is.

In every post I've made here, I was defending my position with anecdotes and opinions, not attacking others' opinions, aside from the last snarky comment about how apparently not considering path the best card in the world gets people mad at you on anonymous image boards.

>>53059324

>if you need color fixing you're in multiple colors

Wrong, some mono decks are very heavy on the color requirements and colorless ramp just doesn't help as much as colored ramp

>>53059355

Nobody has ever suggested banning one but not the other, idk why people bring this up every single time, as if it's a meaningful point

>>53062235
>Being archenemy doesn't fucking matter in the slightest
If you can't leverage your turn 1 Sol Ring to either create a crushing board position, or to win the game in a few turns, it will matter. No, it "doesn't fucking matter" in your little Christmasland where you're playing a deck that wins on turn 3 against 3 decks who go "land, pass" for the first four turns. Practically speaking, you're either playing against other cutthroat decks that will throw a lot of disruption your way to negate your early lead, or you're playing a more laid-back deck where your turn 2 4 drop is not going to end the fucking game.

>>53062274
Because it wouldn't just ban "stupid oppressive cards", it'd ban basically anything that's even edging that way. This is basically Singleton Legacy, except INTENDED to be more laid-back and casual. If you don't think they'd start banning shit left and right for being 'too strong' or 'too hard to find', you're dreaming.

>>53062324
>I honestly can't see how I'm raging
Because you're still fucking arguing with me, you mong. If it didn't actually upset you that I disagree, you would have dropped it a long time ago, but you're still trying to tell me why I'm stupid and wrong.

>>53062324
Dude, calm down.

>>53062423
>Guy states his opinion
>You tell him he's wrong
>Guy defends his opinion
>"Wow why are you so mad"

Third party person who just dropped into the thread. You look like a child, anon.

>>53062423
I'm having a giggle because you think I'm out to get you or something, shit's hilarious man. I know this place is host to a whole cesspool of individuals, and on /b/ I'm usually one of the individuals adding to the cesspool, but on /tg/ I act like a human talking about a game I love, and this entire debate started cuz Ghave-bro wanted to know more about removal packages.

All in all, I've had a blast, and I'll stop defending my opinions if you want. I figured I'd chill on /tg/ for a few hours, shoot the shit, maybe learn something new or something, apparently not.

Take it easy, anon, peace.

>>53062235
Do people here actually play EDH or is this just the shitpost repository because modern and standard are jokes right now?

>>53062410

I have no problem with "singleton legacy" because singleton makes things completely different

I don't want them to ban anything for being "too hard to find", all I want is a banlist that makes some goddamn sense, instead of being "here's some cards I don't like so they are banned, talk to your playgroup if they are mean poopoo heads and play the ones I forgot to put on this list"

A banlist should ban the broken cards, case closed

>>53062536
Oh, I'm not a bastion of adulthood here. I started a stupid argument about trading cards.

I'm just pointing out the irony in insisting "I'M NOT RAGING" while continuing to post paragraph-long explanations of why you're right (and also not mad)

>>53062555
>I'm having a giggle
Ah, the good old "I'm not angry, I'm just counter-trolling you". If you're not angry, prove it. Stop fucking posting.

>>53062568
A little bit of both, EDH is where legacy-lite fags can come in and spew shit for a bit.
Standard is absolutely a joke, but Modern's not too bad, well, not as bad as it possibly could be, I should say.

That being said, there's a lot of us here that love EDH, competitive or casual

>>53062604
He never gave any indication that he was upset. Just systematically addressed points. But taking a discussion too seriously apparently is considered being ENRAGED.

>>53062601
Well, our current banlist from the RC has things banned for being so expensive that they're out of reach for most players (like the Power 9). If WOTC fully took over, they'd most likely expand that and ban even more old, expensive cards that they can't reprint because it's "not fair" to more casual players.

A banlist that 'makes sense' would either be much more restrictive than what we have, or "Fuck it, figure it out yourself". The RC is not infallible, but the banlist is not just "cards I don't like: By Sheldon". There's things on there I don't agree with, but they're just trying to create a general 'baseline' banlist that groups can choose to deviate from if they wish.

>A banlist should ban the broken cards, case closed
And no matter who's doing the banning, unless their definition of "The broken cards" doesn't perfectly match yours, you'll still throw a baby-ass tantrum about it.

>>53062644
Other than repeatedly stating how not-angry you are, and continuing to insist how right you are over and over again, you mean?

>>53062324
If your deck building is making you choose between path and utter end and not running both plus a few more pieces of spot removal, you're doing something very wrong.

>>53062604
>>53062611

Bro, arguments aside, are you okay?
>>53062674
You're not fighting one person, dude, you're acting a bit paranoid.

I didn't know someone could have a breakdown from someone not agreeing with them on the internet on 4chan, I thought that shit only happened on tumblr or something.

Anyone ever make a Sidar Kondo infect deck? Seems like it could be really really good if built right.

>>53062708
I don't give a shit that people don't agree with me, I just find it funny how upset it makes -you-, that you have to keep arguing with me about how angry you aren't, and how wrong I am, and how right you are.

Tell me again you're not mad.

>>53062711
Considering there's only 17 cards in green/white with Infect that synergize with his ability, and almost all of them are overcosted 2/2s or 1/1s

And considering that a Skittles infect deck is better because you always have access to a decently-costed, evasive Infect beater that can give himself Haste

Probably not

>>53062701
I usually run the stuff I posted up
>>53060953

I just like the ability for removal to be modal, I prefer flexibility over efficiency, and it has definitely bit me in the ass more than once not being able to just path something.
If I had a full on complete control deck, yeah, I would run all of them in a heartbeat

>>53062766
Well you would partner Sidar with someone who is either black red or black blue and that gives you access to those infect guys. If you have blue then that's a lot more proliferate as well, yeah?

>>53062789
If by "a lot" you mean "Six cards", sure.

I mean, it's doable in theory, but the way you do Infect in Commander is either slapping Grafted Wargear/Phyresis/Glistening Oil onto something like Ruric Thar, or you go with Skittles. The vast majority of Infect creatures are just hilariously overcosted because of Infect. Hell, it only 'works' in Legacy and Modern by using the two cheapest Infect creatures and throwing a fuck-million buff spells at them.

>>53062739
I mean, following the same lines as your
>>53062611
>Ah, the good old "I'm not angry, I'm just counter-trolling you". If you're not angry, prove it. Stop fucking posting.

You're making it seem like you're just as buttblasted as you're making me out to be

My only real annoyance here is you keep saying that I'm calling you wrong, and I'm not and you aren't, you're entitled to your opinions just as I am to mine.

I thought we might get somewhere in this conversation, but I guess not, so take it easy, anon.

>>53062886
Oh, I'm irritated.

Here's the difference, sparky: I'm not repeatedly posting "I'M NOT MAD I'M NOT MAD I'M NOT MAD I'M NOT MAD".

>>53062568
I used to think that land destruction had no place in casual EDH... But now I realize I had a warped view of casual EDH. I used to think that cards like Sheoldred, Jitte, Ulamog, a few God enchantment creatures, etc all had no place in casual EDH.
Nowadays I realize that these things are fine for casual EDH, but with that realization I've also realized that Land Destruction should be fine as well. The truth is that if someone is playing mono red they not only can't take care of powerful enchantments but they have very few ways to take out creatures with over 7 toughness or indestructible creatures. So are you going to tell me that they should either A) get very lucky or B) willingly lose the game because they have no options?
No, neither of those choices are acceptable. The truth is that land destruction is the most powerful tool in Red's arsenal, not using it puts mono red players at a supreme disadvantage. If you feel like you're allowed to use supremely strong creatures "because they can be removed" or supremely strong enchantments "because they can be removed" then I feel that I'm allowed to use supremely strong land destruction "because you can run mana rocks".
And just as you say "Well you should run more removal!" I say "Well you should run more mana rocks!" and then you can say "Well I do but they aren't in my hand right now!" and I reply WITH THE EXACT SAME SENTIMENT towards removal.
So at the end of the day I say this; If the point of casual edh is still to win, which it obviously is if you're running $20 powerful praetors, then I'm going to do what I can to win, which is to keep you from being able to play those praetors.

>>53062923
>>53062789
pair him with vialsmasher to for tainted strike and warstorm surge alone

>>53063008
<<<<post-ironic pasta posting intensifies>>>>

>>53062660

The power 9 are broken purely for power reasons though, the only one that's borderline reasonable (timetwister) is unbanned

>just trying to create a general baseline banlist that groups can choose to deviate from if they wish

This is the problem right here, can you not see that? This is retarded. People can ALREADY deviate from any banlist they want, if their playgroup agrees to it. Making a banlist be specifically lacking and inconsistent so as to encourage deviation is stupid, people aren't going to deviate most of the time because people want to be able to go to an LGS and meet new people through edh, which you can't really do if everybody is working with their own custom banlist

The banlist should ban the broken cards and be consistent in its application, there is no possible arguing against this. Because no matter what they came up with, if a playgroup felt it was necessary or fun, they could come up with their own banlist. People are relying on the RC to make a banlist that people who don't know each other can have fun using with no changes, and the RC has failed them miserably

>>53063094
>This is retarded
In your opinion.

Commander is a widespread format. If there's not something "unified" for people to expect, then it just becomes a completely different format at each shop because they use their own ban list.

>The banlist should ban the broken cards
Again, who decides that metric? No matter who does, unless it perfectly matches YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION of 'broken', you'll be mad. if they ban a card you think is fine, you'll be mad, insisting it's not broken. If they allow a card you hate, you'll be mad, insisting it is broken. You don't want a "unified" banlist, you just want your personal opinion on what is and isn't fair forced onto everyone else.

>>53063094
Basically no one would play them if they were unbanned because no one has that much dosh to waste on a casual format.

And about the "ban broken stuff" there's the relative perception of broken the other anon talked about. It's all relative.

>>53063094
>purely for power reasons
I'd wager that Mox Pearl as a singleton is absolutely not more powerful than Mana Crypt is. One is banned and one is legal, because one is 40 dollars and one is 400 dollars.

>>53063126

I MAY have a problem with a banlist they come up with, but that's not what I'm talking about here. My complaint is with the philosophy of the banlist. There is obviously something wrong with the rules committee's banlist, it makes no goddamn sense and is the source of all the enmity between more competitive and more casual edh players. Sheldon recognizes that survival of the fittest and ad nauseam are broken, he simply expects you to be a nice person and not play them, and also ask your friends not to play them as well.

And I'm not even saying the banlist has to ban survival of the fittest and ad nauseam, whatever power level they decide they want to be legal is fine, I just want consistency. It makes no sense that fast mana is legal but 6 drop ramp spells like prime time are not. It makes no sense that Sheldon wants to discourage combo decks but doesn't ban food chain and survival of the fittest and so on

>>53063094

Let's walk through the banning process here:
- X card is proving problematic in metas based on feedback from community forums.
- X card fits one of thr outlined criteria to ban a card.
- X gets bannrd

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about this logic. No where in that model does the RC go "Okay well Y is similar to X so lets ban Y." Y isn't cause problems in a lot of metas and if it does then it will be banned on its own merit.

It's frustrating how dumb you have to be to not understand this system.

Are there any cards that will completely shit on "extra turn" abusing assholes like Newzuri, Edric or Wanderer? I don't mean just denial like Ugin's Nexus, I want something that could completely screw them over for taking that extra turn, some backbreaking upkeep effects maybe?

>>53055954
Jori en, ruin diver

>>53063395
>community forums
well theres your problem
>hurr durr ban con sphinx and deadeye XD XD XD XD

>>53063429
The only major one I can think of is some grixis shell where you donate/harmless offering a demonic pact

>>53063429
havoc festival and other mogis cards?
seems pretty bad but hey thats what you asked for

>>53063450
They monitor and post on MTGSalvation all the time and it's the only consistent way they can get feedback. Likewise, they haven't banned those cards because they don't pass the muster in step 2.

So I'm not sure what you were trying to say other than their method has worked.

>>53063429
Nekusar, with all his "punish for drawing" shit.

>>53063184

There are multiple legal cards that cost as much or more than Mox pearl, I agree that mana crypt is slightly more powerful than mox pearl, mana crypt should be banned, the reason Pearl is banned is more on the basis of being consistent with the other moxen and classic alpha power cards being banned

>>53063429
Ruric Thar. Literally build the entire deck around punishing non-creature spells, also put in any land killing creatures you can.

>>53063539
im trying to say that browsing those forums can only hurt

>>53063646
I mean people aren't going to lie about what's effecting their meta. The question isn't about what is bannable but what's causing ripples in metas. After they determine what's causing ripples then they have the decision on what to ban. Otherwise they are making decisions for the format with no evidence from outside metas. Where is the disconnect here?

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And now my necros have potence! Anybody else get something nice today?

>>53063897
>lie
its not about being truthful its about that information being useful

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>>53063902
>that sleeve

>>53060753
That is actually a rule I frequently need to explain when playing with randoms with my Shu Yun deck because of the interaction of Shu Yun and Willbreaker (with both of them, you can steal something using the double strike trigger from Shu Yun to steal a creature but you don't actually have to pay the cost for it).

>>53064131
>not noticing the card behind Necro
Dude clearly just got it in the mail.

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>>53063902
>not using the far superior version as a proxie
lame

>tfw just placed an order for the 40 new cards I needed to finish my new deck
This is going to feel really good, then it will hurt, then it will feel really good again.

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>>53064268

>>53063917
It is useful because if you're trying to figure out what's effecting the most amount of metas then the only way to do so is to ask people FROM THOSE METAS. They can decide how legitimate the complaints are but the information about those metas can only come from those people.

>>53064357
most of those problems are caused by incompetency not because of the cards themselves

>>53064399
HENCE WHY THE RC DOESN'T BAN THOSE CARDS. ARE YOU FUCKING WITH ME?

>>53064418
>ARE YOU FUCKING WITH ME?
no im just saying the data is pretty much shit and using it at all isnt a good idea

Much like the current U.S. administration, it should be required that two cards are unbanned for every new banned card

>>53064441
>Democracy doesn't work because most of the votes come from incompetents.

No. You're just an idiot.

>>53064477
keeping the cardpool open is a good idea but unbanning shit that never needs to see the light of day just to get ad naus or sol ring on the list isnt a good idea

>>53064522
it doesnt
and it applies twice as hard to the MTG community

>>53064544

Make sure you tell the all the first world nations that secretly their countries aren't working. I don't envy Sheldon trying to explain basic logical reasoning to idiots.

>>53064568
>what is a republic
>muh democracy
wew

>>53064525
Which is the point; ad naus and sol ring shouldn't be banned

>>53064582
In American English, the definition of a republic can also refer specifically to a government in which elected individuals represent the citizen body, known elsewhere as a representative democracy (a democratic republic)

Enjoy the last (You)

>>53064600
Or maybe the point is that putting arbitrary clauses to promote deregulation in areas that should be deregulated is an asinine idea.

>>53064643
>should
That needs to be should not

>>53064600

Both of those should be banned though, 5 mana win the game and fast mana

>>53064884
Fast mana is one of the only things keeping edh from becoming Green Deck, the Tappening, the Format (coming to an LGS near you!). It is seriously beyond me how sol ring is banned in the online version but prime time isn't.

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>spent most of the day carefully tuning gimmick-tier decks
Feels good, man.

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>>53064989
>Fast mana
>implying paying 2 mana to get a land into play tapped is going to be sooooo op when you can pay two mana to get a mana rock into play tapped
HAHHHHAHAHAh
oh
ahhahahahaahahahaha

Really the only things that need to be banned are the power nine and like 5-6 other cards, I say let people use what they want to use. It's always better to have a less restricted ban list in this kind of format because it always seems more socially acceptable for people to add cards onto the banlist for their own personal/LGS meta than for them to choose to play with cards that are on the ban list. Basically having a small banlist is better for letting different people play at the power levels they want to. Of course that would have to change if there were official wizards sanctioned edh tournaments

>>53064989

Prime time isn't even a good card with gaea's cradle banned, barely a good card with it legal

your intelligence is below a retarded chimp if you think sol ring should be legal but not prime time

>>53065032
with that logic why not let people play power 9?

>>53065038
Wasn't quite what I was trying to say, meant that they should either both be banned or both be unbanned.

>>53065000
nice digits

>>53065054
That's a good question, and I don't have a good answer, except that they would be the hardest by far for most people to accept. Personally I wouldn't have a problem having no banned cards in a singleton format

>>53065094

prime time is barely playable in edh

>>53065129
Sheldon seems to disagree for some reason

>>53065129
isnt primetime the only card to be released in a commander product to also be banned?

>>53065180
Trade Secrets.

>>53065129
Certain decks can abuse that ability to an unholy degree. But that is a statement that can be used for many cards. I honestly would like Primetime unbanned, but I'm just some interjecting anon

>>53065170
>>53065129
The general logic is that Prime Time provides enough value that frequently the game becomes "Who can steal/reanimate/clone Primeval Titan the most" until it's exiled or whatever.

Compared to top-tier shit like Food Chain decks, it's not really a big deal, but it can be a very big green monkey wrench in a lot of less-cutthroat games.

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>>53064131
Here is a little photo shoot. Is it pretty now? Upside down card is a land to show the sleeves I am using.
And if anybody wants to know the bullshit jank deck these are for, here is link http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/athreos-skelly-tribal/