/4eg/ Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons General

A tip from /5eg/.
Try to start with a question, it helps kickstart things.

>>53025583
Okay how bout this:

What classes do you find superfluous or lacking in depth?

>>53025557
I found that the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard, without Venetian casting, was purely academic. The sorcerer end up looking kind of bland by comparison, and there weren't many good builds for it.

>>53025639
I guess the seeker?

From my experience with him he seems to be complete garbage with little interesting things.

On the exactly opposite side of the spectrum, I love what they did with monks, especially those techniques.

>>53025557
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmxfg1d1a1ouu2v/4e%20CB.zip?dl=0
What were some of you're favorite/most broken builds?

>>53025733
>I love what they did with monks, especially those techniques.

I thought making him a psionic class was cool, but I never really looked into the class much.

File: 2.jpg (118KB, 640x583px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 640x583px

Talk about Dark Sun

File: dnd_4e.png (137KB, 806x647px) Image search: [Google]

137KB, 806x647px

>>53025639
>What classes do you find superfluous or lacking in depth?

All of them. They all use the same 10 or so maneuvers that either involve (1) shifting, (2) ongoing damage, or (3) double weapon damage. There are maybe 1 or 2 unique powers in the entire game. Half the classes don't even need to exist, it has the same problem that 5e does where every race has to have ASIs and no penalties because "A bloo bloo my halfling is 5% worse at hitting things", everyone starts with a fuckton of hit points so the combat takes goddamn forever.

>"You slash him, he's almost dead!"
>"You slash him, he's almost dead!"
>"You slash him, he's almost dead!"
>"You slash him, he's really close to dying!!"
>"You slash him....shit, he's still not dead."

Fuck this cancerous game, I was stuck playing it for 2 years because it was the only thing my group wanted to play. I have to keep track of spells and shit as a fighter? FUck that. The maneuvers are basically spells anyway.And half of them are the same. Why not just discard the lower-level powers as you level up so I don't have to fucking deal with them anymore. And please explain to me why the fuck my fighter can do crack the shell or rain of steel once per day? It's not a fucking spell. Also why does my fighter KNOW he can only use it once per day? He quite literally knows "oh, that was a sick ass maneuver I pulled there, too bad I won't be able to do that until tomorrow."

Oh and the "regulated" healing, fuck that shit. There was nothing wrong with 3.5 healing except for wands which actually made clerics capable of doing other cool shit anyway. No one gives a flying fuck about the resting structure of the game. If the party wants to spend a bunch of wands and really pull through and carve through 9 encounters so they can make it to the top of the mountain and stop the demon prince from summoning not!Cthulu then fucking let them. Resting is boring as fuck and doesn't even make sense cinematically where you ahve movie characters powering through hour-long action scenes with multiple fights. But that's not good enough for D&D, they had to regulate healing, then in 5e the shit-spawn of healing surges turned into Hit Dice, another thing that never needed to exist. All because of that cocksucker who came up with reserve points way back in the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. Fuck that faggot. I hope he has ass-cancer now and I hope it hurts, because that shit was the stupidest fucking shit I've ever heard. At least do some shit like "when you take a short rest you heal half your lost hp" or something simple, who needs this other crap where there is even more shit I have to make Xs on my character sheet for, or use more tokens or dice or whatever to keep track of (1) my fucking powers I've used or not, (2) my fucking healing surges, (3) my fucking action points... oh shit I've erased a hole in my fucking character sheet. Or I have to go through an extra ream of paper throughout the campaign, and keep track of attaching it all to my character sheet so I don't lose it. And that would be fine if the mechanic actually added something to the game, but it adds fucking NOTHING. Explain what the fuck martial resource management ADDS to the game. How does it make it more fun? It doesn't, it just makes it easy for Wizards to balance martials and casters by making ALL the classes casters.

Wew, with that image you might even be able to make people think the powers do the same thing.

The races are cancerous as well. 3.5 started the influx of autistic player races, but 4e put the nail in the coffin by having them in the fucking core book. Tieflings and dragonborn? The latter are pretty cool but tieflings? They are literal hellspawn. They would be lynched on sight. Everyone who played tieflings in my 4e game that I ran, was fucking lynched on sight. Then the party couldn't go into town for the rest of the campaign and they blamed ME for that shit. Well, that's what you get for playing a fucking demonspawn. That's also what you get for playing a fucking drow. These faggots hadn't even read Legend of Drizz't, they barely even knew who Drizzt was, they just wanted to play a drow because they were edgelords or because there are drow in World of War-Crap, I don't even know. Also they had to have two different kinds of elves for some gay-ass reason. I don't know why the fuck a CR 6 monster from previous edition had to be included as a goddamn player race but then that makes about as much sense as the rest of this stupid fantasy aids crap so I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised.

>>53027678
>Crushing Surge
The Invigorating keyword means the fighter will, if trained in endurance, gain [Con Mod] temporary hit points
>Disheartening Strike
The Rattling keyword means that the enemy hit, if the rogue is trained in intimidate, will suffer a -2 penalty to hit the rogue until the end of the rogue's next turn
>Piercing Strike
Just a Dex-based MBA, but targets Reflex instead of AC, meaning it is much more likely to hit because Reflex is 2 lower than AC for monsters on average

Seems like you either didn't play 4e well, or didn't look up the specifics of the system when you did. The powers provide a lot of different mechanical effects, and role-playing how you swing at a monster is the same as if you were playing any D&D edition. The thing 4e does is give something more to weapon-based classes than just swing at a dude and stand in the way.

>everyone starts with a fuckton of hit points so the combat takes goddamn forever
At level 1, my con-secondary fighter was taken down from her max HP of 28 to 4 hp with one attack from a kobold. I can understand complaining about the monsters having too much health, especially if you played in the first couple years of the game's release. I think the intent was that everyone in the party could do something cool before the end of the encounter if the monsters were more resilient. Obviously that got tedious, especially with solos, That's why they changed that math later.

>Why not just discard the lower-level powers as you level up so I don't have to fucking deal with them anymore.
You do trade-out older encounter and daily powers when you reach paragon. Your at-wills are not meant to be your powerful shit, because they're what you fall back on for go-to killing. Hell, even they double weapon damage once you reach epic-tier.

>>53027977
>At level 1, my con-secondary fighter was taken down from her max HP of 28 to 4 hp with one attack from a kobold.

bullshit. unless he had like a +4 fucking weapon or some shit. what kobold are you talking about, one from the monster manual?

>>53027678

>Also why does my fighter KNOW he can only use it once per day?
Why does he have to? Could it be that he swung so hard his shoulder is sore? A verteran who can't do this kind of shit all the time. Or maybe it's just based on how often the maneuver would work in a situation. Not a literal magic spell, but a action-movie maneuver that won't work every time. Be creative.

>>53027743
>who needs this other crap where there is even more shit I have to make Xs on my character sheet for
Are you really having trouble with all the numbers? I started these responses trying to be empathetic, but your whining is becoming childish here.

>Explain what the fuck martial resource management ADDS to the game.
You don't like managing numbers or tactics. We get it. I bet you didn't like managing flanking, bonus types, or rituals either

>>53027678
Those powers seem pretty different to me.

File: mm3businessfront.gif (7KB, 350x200px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 350x200px

>>53028078
I assume you're familiar with the MM3 business card, you take a level 2 kobold dragonshield and add a level-appropriate encounter power the average damage for the power would be 15, and if it rolls well, then it'll get into the 20s on that hit since it's 3d6+6 or something to reach that average damage
I wasn't the DM for this game, but the math worked out, despite my ass-hurt at the time

File: Untitled.png (384KB, 529x460px) Image search: [Google]

384KB, 529x460px

>>53028078
>>53028193
src. Monster Vault pg 181

>>53028149
Don't bother the halfling argument outs him as a local retard in /fiveggs/

>>53027678
>>53027743
>>53027812

I hate 4e as much as the next guy but this is some real fucking autism. You don't have to play the edition if you don't like it you know.

File: 56e07a2b09a039573c85d591d2ea050c.jpg (71KB, 640x555px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 640x555px

I said talk about Dark Sun

Is there a planescape supplement for 5e?

>>53025557
>>53027678
>>53027743
>>53027812

This is truly the butthurt 3.5/pf edition.

We tried 4e with my group recently. It's awesome. The combat is way more interesting, we can do a lot more right at the start, and it hinders in no way RP.
I mean, RP is like it's always been. You play your character, and throw a skill check sometimes.

>>53028397
>This is truly the butthurt 3.5/pf edition.

Except I don't like 3.5 either.

>The combat is way more interesting,

It's a slogfest of pre-packaged maneuvers. It's like fucking Dota 2. If you find that interesting just have a fuckin Dota lan party every time you get into a combat, it'd be more fun.

>>53028094
>Why does he have to?

Because he is capable of making plans based off of those maneuvers. Just like he is capable of making plans based off of being low on HP, because he is worn out. Except he knows exactly what powers he can no longer use. Also why the fuck does his shoulder get sore every time he uses a disarm maneuver? If that's your excuse then you clearly know nothing about fighting.

>Not a literal magic spell, but a action-movie maneuver that won't work every time.

Then he should be able to make a check in order to pull off that maneuver. Because it DOES work every time: once he has had a long rest. Not only that but he can make plans based off of what powers he has available, therefore he is aware of them.

>>53028094
>Are you really having trouble with all the numbers?

Fucking kill yourself retard, I used to play 3.5 before 4e and the combination of those two made me give up on D&D forever. And 3.5 had FAR more math than 4e. But 4e makes me mark off what powers I've used and I either keep track on a fucking scrap paper or I use tokens all over my fucking sheet, and it adds NOTHING to the fucking experience. I wouldn't mind if fighter resource management was a good mechanic, but it's not, and it just adds more bookeeping I don't need.

>don't like tactics

Oh like picking which prepackaged bullshit maneuver to use? Fuck off. At least other RPGs have their combat tactics emerge organically, rather than plastering them on to structure them as much as possible like a crappy video game.

> I bet you didn't like managing flanking, bonus types, or rituals either

I have no problem with flanking, and rituals are a cool idea. Too bad they are surrounded by a shitmess of a system I can barely appreciate them.

>>53028510
>Then he should be able to make a check in order to pull off that maneuver.
No, he shouldn't, because it annihilates any semblance of balance and makes no sense.

Fuck off.

>>53028587
>No, he shouldn't, because it annihilates any semblance of balance and makes no sense.

HAHAHAHA how the fuck does it make less sense than "you can use this maneuver you learned only once per day because somehow the laws of the universe coincide to only allow the appropriate situation to come up once per day.

>inb4 you try to use the "wurld made of majiikk XD XD" argument like a typical 4e cocksucker

>>53028459
>It's a slogfest of pre-packaged maneuvers. It's like fucking Dota 2. If you find that interesting just have a fuckin Dota lan party every time you get into a combat, it'd be more fun.
kek

And spells aren't pre packaged maneuvers at all. No ma'am, spells are perfect.

>At least other RPGs have their combat tactics emerge organically, rather than plastering them on to structure them as much as possible like a crappy video game.

Oh yes, I do want to hear what awesome game you play. I'm sure it's genius.

>>53028633
have you ever watched a fight in a movie, and the protag throws a chair or punches a guy into another guy, or some other weird situational thing?
Think about martial encounter/dailies like that. The opportunity to do it pops up only so often. The meta-planning you're attributing to your character is meta-planning. You're doing it. Your character isn't aware of game abstractions like healing surges, or hit points, or encounter or daily powers, or even powers at all. To your dude, he's just in a scuffle with some orcs and sees an opening that he can manipulate. He doesn't know he's bloodied; that's something you the player know so you can plan and work with it.

I wish Wizards had released 4e under a different IP. Making a game about having lots of tactical battles would have been great.

>>53028723
'D&D Tactics' would have removed all these arguments, but also would have left it with no support at all.

>>53028705
>And spells aren't pre packaged maneuvers at all
Did I say they weren't?
>>53028705
>Oh yes, I do want to hear what awesome game you play. I'm sure it's genius.

Well for one, 5e is objectively better than 4e, if we're talking D&D. If we're talking non-D&D games, then the number of which that surpass 4e in design quality are too many to list. I mean, I have a list, but you would be better off looking up "list of table top roleplaying games" on google, deleting 4e from that list, and reading it off in no particular order.

>>53028743
>'D&D Tactics' would have removed all these arguments,

No, the game would still be shit.

>>53028459
>It's like fucking Dota 2
What does that even mean?

>>53028763
But you wouldn't care because it would have been a side game.
How often do you go and pick fights about the D&D video games, or that board game they made.

>>53028772
He's trying to do the same 'WoW clone' meme but with fresh paint.

>>53028633
Does Michael Jordan try to make shots from the beginning of the opposite side of the court nonstop?

No?

Then fuck off.

File: 1454920735125.png (80KB, 500x501px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 500x501px

>>53028745
>5e
5e is full of pre packaged shit. It's all D&D have. And guess what? In 5e, exactly like in 4e, martials have short rest or long rest abilities. And big surprise: they suck compared to casters, and have not even half the fun abilities they have in 4e.

Just that means you're full of shit. You're just sperging about 4e because you don't like it, when a game you think is "objectively better" do the EXACT SAME THING, but it's more "aesthetic" for you, so you can swallow the pill.

Actions in Burning Wheel are pre-packaged, powers and talents in Star Wars FFG are pre-packaged, even in fucking Call of Cthulhu you have "pre-packaged" maneuvers. It's called having RULES. You want to shoot X times with your rifle? Well you have to take THIS precise action, that will do THIS precise thing.

If you want to get rid of that, then go full freeform combat, with only skillcheck and no other rules, because otherwise it's always going to be "pre packaged shit" you sperg

>>53028784
>But you wouldn't care because it would have been a side game.

That doesn't change anything as to the quality of the game though. Also 4e isn't the official version of D&D anyway so no one fucking cares.

>>53028789
>Does Michael Jordan try to make shots from the beginning of the opposite side of the court nonstop?

No, but he also isn't aware he can do it once and only once, before taking an 8 hour nap, at which point he can suddenly do it again whenever he wants to. Once.

>Then fuck off.

Just neck yourself you fucking loser, your abstraction is complete bullshit and you know it. It's shit mechanically, and it's shit flavor-wise.

>>53028772
Because you push buttons and your fucking prepackaged maneuvers go off, with no actual tactics or forethought. Just mindless peg-fits-hole application, so you can masturbate over using the correct maneuver and feel like a big bad tactician. Hell, Dota even has ongoing damage and minions. It's so much like 4e it's not even funny.

>>53028895
Wow, it's almost like that describes every game ever.

>>53028895
>Wizards are exactly like Dota, you push your spell button and it goes off, with no actual tactics or forethought. Just mindless peg-fits-hole application, so you can masturbate over using the correct spell and feel like a big bad tactician. Hell, Dota even has ongoing damage and low CR mobs for quick xp and gold. It's so much like 5e it's not even funny.

>>53028825
>In 5e, exactly like in 4e, martials have short rest or long rest abilities.

Yes and they are the worst part of the game, bar nothing. Even the fucking tranny mechanics are better.

>5e is full of pre packaged shit. It's all D&D have.

Nice reductionist logic. 5e has more meaningful choices than picking which maneuver that will do a half-fart of damage to an enemy and wear them down slightly faster.

>Actions in Burning Wheel are pre-packaged, powers and talents in Star Wars FFG are pre-packaged, even in fucking Call of Cthulhu you have "pre-packaged" maneuvers. It's called having RULES. You want to shoot X times with your rifle? Well you have to take THIS precise action, that will do THIS precise thing.

You're missing the point, autist. The actions in those books are meant to represent in-world actions and the mechanics tend to follow that. 4e just creates a bunch of maneuvers to satisfy the meta-game only, and inherently lends itself to metagaming. It's bullshit because all of your character's actions are bullshit, they can't know they are going to only be able to do X maneuver once by your "lucky timing / situation" """logic""", yet they do, and they have to in order for any of the in-world events to make sense.

>>53028948
Spells can be used in clever ways, though. The 4e maneuvers define all of the end behavior of their execution, and most of their consequences take place entirely within the mechanics, rather than actually doing something in the world, so there's not much creative shit you can do with them. O

>>53028960
Why is it that every 4E thread on the board will always have a literal fucking autist shitposting in it?

>>53028903
Wow, except it doesn't. Other games have rules for shit like flanking or aiming or disarming that are actually effective because the players can't just press a button and get +10 to hit once per day, or double damage. or they do shit like knocking over a bookshelf onto an enemy. But why would anyone do that in 4e, when all the monsters have 100 hit points and a bookshelf falling does 2d6, but if you use your SUPER COOL DRAGON CLAW POWAH you can deal 2d10+12 instead?

>>53029049
>Other games have rules for shit like flanking or aiming or disarming that are actually effective
Which are prepackaged abilities.

You're literally going full autistic screeching here because the game's decisions don't map 1:1 to reality. Go away.

>>53028995
Because you ruined D&D by (1) hijacking the game into normie/roastie-palatable bullshit for 4 years straight, (2) injecting tieflings and dragonborn which are the most cancerous races to ever exist, into the core players handbook, cementing them as an "I can play this race" rather than " I have to ask the DM permission to play this trace", (3) spawning Pathfinder which took the shit-muffin that was 3.5, picked the one or two bits of diamond out of it and threw them away before caking it with fried diarrhea, and then (4) fucking up 5e because the faggot devs who made 4e were allowed to continue designing games for Wizards let alone drawing breath, and injected more of 4e's shitty mechanics into 5e and making it suck raw shit.

You fucked up three editions of D&D in a row. D&D is pretty shitty anyways, but it could have evolved into something tolerable, and you fuckwits ruined it. Now we have second wind and action surge and fucking battlemaster maneuver dice, all because you people wanted to make martials """interesting""", and instead of creating an actual system to support that, you just gave them spellcasting disguised as """""maneuvers"""". The fucking 3.5 tactical feats were more interesting than 4e manevuers because at least you had to set them up, there was some slightly bit of potential there no matter how shitty the execution. Hell, even AD&D style combat where the fighter hitting something actually mattered, was fine too, but no, we had to go back to monsters having 100 hit points by CR 5 because that's the way 4e's padded sumo bullshit worked.

File: 1429154842039.jpg (48KB, 627x626px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 627x626px

>>53028960
>Nice reductionist logic. 5e has more meaningful choices than picking which maneuver that will do a half-fart of damage to an enemy and wear them down slightly faster.

No, it does not. 5e is full of shit abilities that only give you a fucking bonus, with no strategy at all. And the funniest thing is that even 4e does that better, like giving the rogue an ability to reroll failed stealth roll in certain circumstances, making the 4e rogue more stealthier than the 5e rogue can even hope to be.

>You're missing the point, autist
No, YOU'RE missing the point, you sperg. Actions in 4e represent in-world actions, with a description, and the effect follow the action to the letter. They are carefuly crafted to be used with strategy, and allow you to use them creatively with a combination of feats or use of the terrain.

What YOU want, is abilities that can be twisted so you can feel creative when you did something that no one ever intended, because it's fucking bonkers.

It's also funny when you speak about creativity: my group never thought about combat, placement and tacticts much when they played any other game. In 4e, everyone try to be creative, because the system give you tools to be creative.

>>53028856
>so no one fucking cares
It certainly seems like someone cares quite a bit about telling us we shouldn't have fun.

>>53029049
Swords in real life are more deadly than bookshelves falling on you too. But a bookshelf falling on someone certainly does immobilize them. Also could target multiple duders.

>>53029170
>Which are prepackaged abilities.

No they aren't. They are mechanics. The abilities exist on top of the mechanics. In a good game, the abilities interact with the mechanics, rather than replacing them. If you can't understand the distinction you are a stupid fuck.

>>53029199
>He's a triggered grognard
Predictable.

>>53029221
I forgot there is no mechanic for flanking in 4e.
Oh wait! There is!

File: basic D&D.jpg (74KB, 612x788px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 612x788px

>>53029199

>>53029202
>5e is full of shit abilities that only give you a fucking bonus

Like that's any different than "once per day you can deal DOUBLE DAMAGE ZOMG"??

>making the 4e rogue more stealthier than the 5e rogue can even hope to be.

That's because the numbers are smaller in 5e numbnuts.

> like giving the rogue an ability to reroll failed stealth roll in certain circumstances

And why should he be allowed to do that? To make the roll even less meaningful by allowing take-backsies? Like every other shitty narrative game out there?

That's part of the problem: 4e is a narrative edition of a game that has been focused on gamist for most of its history.

>>53029262
>4e is a narrative edition of a game that has been focused on gamist
Full retard.

>>53029202
>No, YOU'RE missing the point, you sperg. Actions in 4e represent in-world actions, with a description, and the effect follow the action to the letter. They are carefuly crafted to be used with strategy, and allow you to use them creatively with a combination of feats or use of the terrain.
>What YOU want, is abilities that can be twisted so you can feel creative when you did something that no one ever intended, because it's fucking bonkers.

You're just strawmanning and have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

>It's also funny when you speak about creativity: my group never thought about combat, placement and tacticts much when they played any other game. In 4e, everyone try to be creative, because the system give you tools to be creative.

Give an example for your baseless assertion, then maybe we'll talk.

>>53029283
Then explain how your D&D character knows he can only use Rain of Steel once per day. If he doesn't, then your character is making plans based on shit he doesn't know. Maneuvers are metacurrency, just like FATE points or bennies. That is a key aspect of narrative games.

>>53029259
Better edition than 4e. At least you can actually die in 4e, rather than starting out with 25 times the hit points of an average orc warrior. Or having orcs trying to do an ambush by jumping down on characters from a small rock overhang (5 feet tall) and instantly half of them die failing their acrobatics checks from a 5 foot fall and taking 1d10 damage.

>>53029320
>Then explain how your D&D character knows he can only use Rain of Steel once per day.
Because he's too fatigued to do that specific set of maneuvers again, because enemies have wised up to it for now, because he's not in the correct position to do it?

Literal autism.

>>53029255
>I forgot there is no mechanic for flanking in 4e.

When did I claim or imply there wasn't? It doesn't fucking matter if there is flanking or not, though, because why bother with flanking when you can shift 5 squares and deal MEGA DAMAGE because you haven't used up your daily powah yet?

>>53029366
Because unlike literally every other edition before it, AC actually matters in 4E because accuracy doesn't scale twice as fast as defenses.

>>53029357
>Because he's too fatigued to do that specific set of maneuvers again

From attempting a simple disarm maneuver? Also, why isn't this based on Constitution, if it has to do with fatigue?

> because enemies have wised up to it for now

Okay, he goes into a different room and fights a different set of enemies. Still can't use it cause it's a daily power.

>because he's not in the correct position to do it?

Yet he decides when he is in the correct position to use it. Just that, once he does, he can't do it for another day. Even if he were in the exact same position he would not be able to do it.

The real reason is, maneuvers are metacurrency. They are a narrative mechanics designed to affect the flow of the narrative, NOT to relate to the in-game world in any way.

>>53029405
>Also, why isn't this based on Constitution, if it has to do with fatigue?
Because that's clunky and makes the game nigh impossible to balance?
>NOT to relate to the in-game world in any way.
Yes, because describing the exact effect of what you're doing doesn't relate to the game in any way. Stop autistically screeching about narrativism for five seconds and actually think.

>>53029262
>Like that's any different than "once per day you can deal DOUBLE DAMAGE ZOMG"??
That's very different from an abilities that allows you to make your bard diplomancer reroll a charisma check by creating a distraction as a rogue.

>That's because the numbers are smaller in 5e numbnuts.
No, that's beause the rogue in 4e actually have abilities that help him in stealth. 5e has expertise and bonus action hiding, and the invisibility spell.

>That's part of the problem: 4e is a narrative edition of a game that has been focused on gamist for most of its history.
Fucking hell.

>You're just strawmanning and have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
Oh yes, when you talk about using spells in "clever ways" you're absolutely not talking about breaking a campaign because you had a "good idea" of a loophole in a spell.
There is nothing wrong with the abilities in 4e. They do what they say on the tin, have a precise effect, and this effect can be used with strategy.
Having a bullshit button "I trap your soul in a jar" is not strategy, or cleverness, it's pure shit.
And if you even mention battlefield control spell: it exists in 4e, so fuck off.

>>53029384
AC matters in other editions, too, fuckwit. Including 5e which has bounded accuracy. Probably the only good import from 4e.

>>53029463
4E didn't have bounded accuracy.

>>53029445
>Because that's clunky and makes the game nigh impossible to balance?

And having a sheet full of dumb-ass maneuvers isn't? Also, you just invalidated your own explanation for why I can only use steel rain once per day. You basically went:

>why can I use steel rain once per day
>cause you get tired afterwards
>then why can't a tougher character use it more
>BECAUSE THAT'S UNBALANCED

yeah you're full of shit. Admit the daily powers are a shitty abstraction and an attempt to force martials to play by the casters' rules because that's the only way that they can balance them.

>>53029502
>And having a sheet full of dumb-ass maneuvers isn't?
No, because that's the far superior option if you want them to actually be able to do anything.

>>53029490
No, it didn't. It had AC and stats scaling out the ass. It was a bit better than 3.5, sure, but the math in 5e actually works whereas 4e doesn't. Not to mention how a 20th level character who has never picked up a history book in his life knows more about history than a 1st level character who ahs studied his entire life.

How the FUCK do I get into D&D?

>>53029525
>Not to mention how a 20th level character who has never picked up a history book in his life knows more about history than a 1st level character who ahs studied his entire life.
Good, that's how it should be.

>>53029522
So you are implying that the only possible way martials can be interesting, is by having resource consumption? That is the ONLY way to make martial characters effective and entertaining to play.

Go ahead and say it. I know you want to.

>>53029534
Play the 5e starter set. It's free.

>>53029534
Buy the books, find a group. Or the reverse. And play the edition you want, not the edition some sperg tell you to play.

>>53029539
Why? He knows literally nothing about history. In his travels he has purposely ignored most of the lore of the world. Yet he still knows more than a level 1 sage who has spent his entire life researching. That doesn't make any sense, and neither does the bullshit maneuvers system.

Your edition is a raw sewer line of steaming crap. Get over it.

>>53029563
>Why?
Because he's level 20, he's knocking on literal demigodhood, he's adventured enough to the point where he's personally seen a good chunk of what's written in those books and a lot more that isn't.

>>53029618
>he's adventured enough to the point where he's personally seen a good chunk of what's written in those books and a lot more that isn't.

Except he could easily have made it to level 20 without seeing a vast portion of the surrounding world. Not every campaign has epic quests to god knows where.

>he's knocking on literal demigodhood

No one cares. This means absolutely nothing. If you don't like the example, use another skill. Why does a ranger who has never gone into a city, have +10 base to Streetwise, as opposed to a rogue who has grown up swindling people and sneaking around the city.

>>53029665
>Why does a ranger
For the exact same reason I just told you. You not accepting it doesn't make it invalid.

>>53029563
>Why does *corner case that I made up* not function in a game that's not meant for the kind of character I made up? This game sucks!

File: 10454982.jpg (60KB, 318x418px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 318x418px

Wanna know what's even worse than 4e itself? The 4e comic series. Truly awful. Good thing it died with the edition.

>>53029700
>For the exact same reason I just told you

You explanation is bull shit though. Explain how he would have learned those skills. No made-up asspull bullshit this time. Try one more time.

>>53029737
>a comic no one read is bad

A tree fell in the forest, too, anon.

>>53029798
>Explain how he would have learned those skills.
I just did.

>>53029734
>ranger that doesn't spend much time in cities
>"wahh you're not playing the character right"

Oh sorry, is my ranger supposed to be a cultured socialite? It's not a corner case you mongoloid, I've gone entire campaigns without using certain skills even once. I had +0 in those skills at the beginning, now I have +10. How did that happen, exactly? Oh wait, it's because I fought a lot of goblins and now I'm a LITERAL god. Yeah, this is why no one takes 4e seriously as a system, it's autistic powerwank shitmongering.

File: autism.gif (528KB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

528KB, 480x270px

>>53029834
>characters get generally better the more experienced they are
>THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER AND CANNOT STAND, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Just
stop
replying

>>53029866
How about someone bans him for intentionally fucking up a thread?

>>53029543
How would you make martials interesting?

>>53029815
And your explanation is bull shit. Did he just magically learn streetwise skill? How, when he has never used it before in his life? He couldn't have: once again, 4e is shit, and once again, you are trying to cover it up with an explanation that makes no fucking sense. Does your character have literal omniscience like a demigod? No? Then explain how the fuck he knows a bunch of history he has never had any contact with, or read about. Oh wait, you can't, Just like you can't explain why my fighter can use rain of steel only once per day, then I BTFO your explanation and you move the goalposts to "wah wah unbalanced", you are unable to defend your system's shitty design choices from either a gamist or narrativisit standpoint, you have no argument yet you just sit stubbornly and insist your bullshit arguments hold water., when they don't. You just make up bullshit and insist it's true. Kill yourself.

You deserve to get fucking brain cancer.

>>53029879
>discussing a game's design, then being annoyed when people can't even come up with a viable counterargument, is "fucking up a thread."

>>53029866
But they can't. They know their game is garbage, and it cuts deep. This is NO different than when 3aboos get butthurt over people BTFOing 3.5.

>>53029858
>characters get generally better the more experienced they are

Except the character has no experience with history, did you even read my fucking post?

>>53029894
You know what's way more stupid than someone learning enough about a skill they should've been exposed to a thousand times by the time they hit level 20?

Not learning a single thing about anything not within your specialization in the same timeframe. Doesn't matter how many times you watched your rogue buddy pick a lock or explain how to sneak, you're still stuck at +0.

Hey /4eG/ what would you like to see made for 4e? What kind of adventures, or classes, items, etc.

>>53029952
I would actually have really liked to see more stuff on Hybrids, they were interesting. Especially Paragon Paths relating to them.

File: fluff24.png (531KB, 920x1200px) Image search: [Google]

531KB, 920x1200px

>>53029952
Kitsune who aren't just fox hengeyokai.

>>53029952
A port of the cooler parts of ToB. Not as their own classes, but as powers for suitable classes and Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies for stuff like prestige classes.

>>53029926
>Doesn't matter how many times you watched your rogue buddy pick a lock or explain how to sneak, you're still stuck at +0.

Except most fighters don't even bother learning to pick locks. And why would a rogue teach the fighter to pick locks? That's a waste of goddamn time. And are you telling me that a fighter spends over 5 years during an average D&D campaign learning to pick locks? Because that's about how long it would a 1st level rogue to learn, and still be worse than a fighter who has never touched lockpicks before.

>Not learning a single thing about anything not within your specialization in the same timeframe.

Except it's not the same time frame. By your logic the fighter ought to be able to cast Magic Missile from being around the wizard so much.

>>53029996
>A port of the cooler parts of ToB

You mean D&D 4e itself? How are the two any different?

>>53029992
I would honestly just use the elf or drow stats.

>>53030018
Do you see an Eternal Blade or Jade Phoenix Mage PP/ED anywhere?

>>53030037
No, but who misses them? There's probably something that's pretty much the same in the game, just with different word-salad names.

>>53030094
Well congrats, you're wrong on both counts.

>>53030037
What was ToB's Eternal Blade? The battlemind has a paragon path called exactly that.

>>53030000
No one really dumps Dexterity. But to get on your example of the Level 20 Ranger knowing Streetwise.

Supposing he dumped Intelligence and not Charisma, he has a +10 in it from half-level. Level 20 is basically at the doorgate from demigodhood. He's somewhere between 20 to 40 years old in terms of humans. He went from some jackass that knew how to hunt and track down small animals to one of the greatest hunters to ever live, being able to at this point do things like jump from mountaintops and come out unscathed from sheer acrobatic skill, detect movement even by invisible people and run at 100-meters' speed for the length of a marathon without getting tired.

Meanwhile, he's only got a +10 in Streetwise. He can go around town decently well, more through his fame and glory than anything else. But ultimately, he's not really good at it.

Meanwhile, a Level 1 Rogue, who has lived all his life in the city making it as a lowlife conman has some knowledge, but he's still very much an above-average person and nothing more. He has +9 in Streetwise. Because he's not one of the few guys out there who went to the Abyss and came back alive. He's not one guy capable of doing feats of dexterity that are incredible like cracking open the locks of the heavens. He's just a conman who's decently skilled with a dagger, it's all. He's got skills, he's got smooth-talking, but he's not someone who is nearly as mature and famous as a level 20 ranger.

>>53029978
>Especially Paragon Paths relating to them
I'll see what I can come up with.

>>53029992
I'll be sure to put that on the back burner.

>>53029996
>PoD
Willco.

Anything else guys? Let's brain storm for a bit.

>>53030193
http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29839841/Eternal%20Blade

>>53030206
>He can go around town decently well,

A 1st level character can go around town decently well. A +10 in a skill means you are good at it, unless page 42 shat on that even more, I don't know, my DM didn't always run by RAW and their stupid ass treadmill rules. Certainly more capable than a 1st level character. And streetwise involves a lot more than fame.

>tfw the Warlord and Avenger are genuinely awesome class concepts that other d20 games will never steal because 4e is tainted for them

suffering

>>53030254
I feel like Strength-based Paladins could have some more defender-like stuff rather than try and be this weird half shitty striker half meh defender they are.

>>53030378
V classes in general have that issue. STR Cleric might as well not exist.

>>53030282
4e's eternal blade seems similar, it's at least clearly based on the same idea.
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Eternal-Blade.html

>>53030352
The thing about the treadmill rules is that it makes some sense when you think scale. No, he's not going about in this port town that people stop by - it's less that and more, at that point, going about the citadels of hell. At that point, a +10 isn't, in any way, shape or form, going to help you. You need far higher, you need the Rogue's +26 in it.

Basically, 4e's really about high aims for a campaign. Lord of the Rings is not the archetypal 4e campaign. The archetypal 4e campaign, which it was designed around, is more in line with Berserk's power scale, or Gurren Lagann's power scale. It goes to the level where one character at level 30 is strong enough to kill a star by emporing his own mind that hard.

Ultimately, it makes far more sense for these people to be better at navigating through a port town than your average conman.

>>53030506
This is one of my few pet peeves with 4e, so how does being able to blow up stars make you better at navigating a port town?

>>53030487
The biggest problem is that it's on the Battlemind, which, while a really cool class in its own right, isn't even remotely close to any ToB class in fluff or role.

>>53030373
The Invoker suffers from that problem too. It has so much potential in it as a character idea, even if it's a little edgy, but they view it as ew 4e. Also the Barbarian in 4e is actually quite interesting for once, and the Warden is a great idea too.

>>53030393
Honestly the only V class that can really pull it off is the Warlock, and maybe the Ranger. The Ranger's more on the STR side, but the DEX side can pull it off quite well.

>>53030541
Because the designers considered the negatives of it not even remotely important compared to the negatives of having a game where being a literal demigod will leave you barely more competent than a drooling retard in most areas.

>>53030584
Why is it a negative that a demigod whose portfolio does not include locks might balk in a situation that absolutely requires he pick a lock (and not just destroy the container)?

I liked 4e until they started to go into that "D&D Essentials" bullshit. They literally changed the rules in the middle of the edition.

>>53030621
Because it's fucking stupid for adventurers to not pick up a single thing by osmosis AND +10 only lets you have a crack at the basics.

>>53030651
Learning doesn't happen by osmosis though.

File: earendil vs ancalagon.jpg (512KB, 1372x750px) Image search: [Google]

512KB, 1372x750px

>>53030506
LotR is mid-level at best, but the First Age was pretty epic tier.

>>53030541
Experience. The 30-level Battlemind that will destroy the several eldritch beings that make up the stars will have seen the depths of hell and all its cities; will have traveled through the heavens and seen things people wouldn't believe. Traveled through the Astral Plane. Seen all sorts of kings and emperors and might have even talked to the gods themselves, maybe piercing through the veil.

He's just slightly better than your average folk hero. And even then not by much.

Also >>53030651 - +10 is good for say cracking a chest open. The rogue is picking locks that are protected by divine magic at that point. It's less "crack this one safe open" and more "doing the impossible" at that point.

>>53030688
The fuck it doesn't.

>>53030713
LotR is mid-level at best and the stories in the Silmarillion are archetypal Epic campaigns, let's face it.

Actually, I've been wondering, what is the archetypal Paragon-level campaign in 4e? I've been only having trouble defining it proper.

>>53030688
>>53030732
*efficient learning of difficult or technical methods rarely happens by osmosis.

>>53030732
Osmosis is a chemical process by which solutes with a high concentration dilute across a barrier to a lower concentration, IIRC. I don't see why it would be applicable, unless you're doing a really twisted, tortured metaphor, which is also incorrect.

Learning takes active engagement. How often did you actively engage your wizard demigod in learning the Rogue's sleight of hand?

File: terrible.png (157KB, 595x379px) Image search: [Google]

157KB, 595x379px

>>53030797

>>53030787
If it was efficient, he'd have the same level of skill as the same level Rogue would.

>>53030756
>what is the archetypal Paragon-level campaign in 4e?
It basically runs like this:
Heroic - Save a city
Paragon - Save a country
Epic - Save the world/plane

>>53030915
Not at all.

That would be if it was ideal.

Sometimes none of your options are ideal, but one of them is always the most efficient option at the time.

Considering that the bonuses you get at high levels put you above the abilities of common men completely, no, that is quite efficient.

>>53030787
>>53030797
Learning does happen that way, in a sense that you can grasp some of the methodology by watching someone doing it. It's the rationale behind pcs gaining skill experience as they level; they've seen some shit, so they know a little about it, but do not have practical training in it.

>>53030968
I think you dropped this >>53030915

>>53030968
A level 30 barbarian is about as "efficient" at lockpicking as a level 10 rogue.

What's the issue here?

>>53031013
>level 10 rogue

I'd argue that makes the level 30 Barbarian quite the exceptional larcenist.

Assuming he even uses the door.

>>53031013
Why did you quote "efficient" when you didn't even use it right?

A level 10 rogue is beyond most mortal men in lockpicking. A barbarian, who never roleplayed watching the rogue lock pick, and instead distinctly sharpened his blades whenever the rogue did "city fucker stuff" like that, would be beyond most mortal men in lockpicking, purely from "osmosis". That's absurd. I'm pretty glad 5e did away with this mechanic, I just wish they kept the baby when they did.

>>53031063
I'd say he's beyond most mortal men in lockpicking just from being beyond most mortal men in just about anything he does period, really.

>>53031099
Now you've gone circular. There's no roleplaying justification for the barbarian to be super good at lockpicking.

>>53031099
Exactly. He's slain ancient dragons, battled archdevils, been to Hell, the Abyss, and everywhere in between. What does it matter if he can crack a king's best vault, which is pretty strong but probably not even magic?

>>53031063
>>53031099
He could probably just get mad at the door and it would open out off fear.

He is level 30 after all. You're in the realm of Baron Munchausen or Bugs Bunny at that point.

>>53031149
And if the barbarian tried to get mad at the door to open it out of fear, I'd use the appropriate rules for it. That doesn't mean the barbarian is going to be good at fiddling with teeny tiny city slicker shit to open the door.

>>53031122
I could easily see a Conanesque ideal in it, tho, he was a thief for many years.
That said, a player who was interested in that would also simply take the background for it, I'd wager.

>>53031122
Except there is. You just keep refusing to accept it for whatever reason.

>>53031199
No but it does mean that when he rolls to open the door, he's not picking the lock physically, he's telling it to open or he's going to punch it.

Or he learned how to pick a lock by talking to the rogue during down time, like some normie.

>>53031208
Yeah, now you're going circular. I've already debunked your "excuse". This will keep repeating, and repeating, until our lives collapse into an autism singularity. In an effort to avoid this fate, I'm rationing cutting (you) off.

Ignoring the argument over nothing, how do you DMs deal with a large party?
I'm looking at a party of 7, I am sure, and I'm struggling to present challenges that are not incredible slogs or require me to run a goddamn spreadsheet.
No, kicking players is not yet an option, but may be in the future. Until then, what is a good way to present meaningful challenges in battle? More minions? More elites/leaders? Eliminate minions entirely?

>>53031231
You haven't debunked shit.

File: 1408364320382.jpg (442KB, 1600x1200px) Image search: [Google]

442KB, 1600x1200px

Christ ladies. You're both ugly.

Now let's be productive or something. Trying to piss in each others shitholes isn't doing anyone any favors.

How do you prefer to increase the tension of your games? Have you ever had any attempts completely backfire? How?

>>53031381
The game really wasn't built for 7 players.

>>53031381
>how do you DMs deal with a large party?
patience, or by splitting them up with a co-dm or on a different day.

If I can't split them up I generally keep the number of enemies the same, but I increase the damage potential of each enemy.

Do not throw HP bloated sponges or dozens of minions at them. This just makes the game a boring wade through swamps of hit points.

I need a link to the Adventure Tools and the (updated) Character Builder programs. Does anybody have one?

I promise to put it up on MEGA and post a link

File: 2QajLof.jpg (20KB, 600x400px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 600x400px

>>53025639
Most of the psionic classes. All of the shadow classes (they could have spread them out a bit, so that they aren't all JUST STRIKERS). The ranger as a non-controller class. The seeker (though having ranger AND seeker is dumb). I have a lot, there's so much bloat.

>>53032576
>ranger as martial controller
Interesting, how would you do it? Or, how would you do it differently than Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms?

>>53029199
>normies get out ree

File: 1493665136131.jpg (68KB, 479x370px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 479x370px

>>53027812
They probably played teiflings in your lynch-on-sight setting because you didn't actually tell them they would be lynched on sight. Let me tell you a parable:
>go to play some D&D
>read the rulebook to figure out what race I should play
>Human sounds good, though there is a bit that says "other races tend to distrust humans, despite their best efforts"
>doesn't sound that bad
>start the game
>get fucking lynched by elves
>DM: didn't you read the book? Elves think all humans are evil!
>points to the passage you read

>>53032576
>>53032810
sorry, let me make an addendum. Rangers should be seekers, seekers shouldn't be. Seekers occupy the ranger's spot, rangers occupy the rogue's spot. otherwise, I have very few objections to seekers, I just think they should be martial and be named rangers.
with that out of the way, here are some thoughts on how to make rangers controllers that may or may not already be in the books (I don't often look at the ranger section. in fact, by accident of bookbinding, it has fallen out of my player's handbook): warning shots that do minimal/no damage, target will, and shift the target(s) some number of squares away or make them frightened (this might be good as an at-will, maybe even a class feature); I don't remember if multiple shot (in the dumb way where you notch 3 arrows or something) is a thing, but it should be, and it should be a AoE attack; a lot of robin hood things; more debuffs, less damage. I'm not that great at 4e rules, but that's just my take.

STOP TAKING THE BAIT
ITS FUCKING VIRT

So a thread or two ago someone was talking about combining 4E, Strike!, 13th Age, and some other system, maybe d20 Legends? into an unholy hybrid of rich tactical combat.

Anything else happening there?

>>53031461
That is something useful.

>>53025557
How should I build in Expertise feats so the math works out, but my players don't have to spend a feat on something mandatory?

Geez this is filled with a lot of people who don't like 4e. Why not talk about how much you like the systems you like in their own threads rather than here?

So here's my question. I played D&D 4e as my first game, I've wanted to get back into it, even if that means DMing my own game, but I was spoiled on the official builder, and have noticed the offline builders seem to be lacking. I'm not opposed to paying for a decent builder if there is one, but the books feel a little extra thick and slow to run through specially helping a lot of players get into it.

Is there a decent pay for builder for 4e or a set of books I should limit down to without taking away the fun of choices?

File: 4e modified bonuses.jpg (15KB, 187x411px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 187x411px

>>53035634
I use this, the math is good, and all the bonuses count as enhancement bonuses, eliminating magic item hunting.
>>53035809
Funin.space has all of the shit in the game, and you can find a free chargen builder if you google.

>>53030756
One Piece

>>53035809
I use roll20 a lot for 4e

Even for in-person games, having the digital list of powers available to you is super useful for everyone involved

>>53035634
>>53035838
Also, expertise feats offer more than just math, they bring bonuses to actions as well.
I personally used both: I gave everyone a free expertise feat (among some other things), and use the modified inherent bonus chart listed. Haven't had any problems so far, but I also have no issue throwing tough fights at them.

>>53035634
So there's a couple options.
The expertise feats that got introduced later are a bit more interesting than the ones from the earlier books as they provide more than just the scaling numbers. If you think those are interesting enough to not just be considered a tax you don't need to do anything.

Personally I think expertise is still pretty much neccesary but instead of just fixing the math the expertise feats make the weapons more diverse. Even if two weapons have the same stats assuming they fall into different weapon types (Heavy Blades vs. Axes for example) their respective expertise feat does something different.

So what you could do is give every player one free Expertise feat of their choice and one free Defense feat (Improved Defenses, Superior Will and whatever else they are called for Reflex and Toughness).

Lastly there's a couple files for the character builder floating around (not sure where though) that gives characters effectively inherent expertise comparable to a free expertise feat for every weapon at level one (without the added benefits of the expertise feats from essentials).

>>53034806
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?

>>53038264
The anon likes it?

seriously gaiz, need that character builder/adventure tools

>>53038633
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmxfg1d1a1ouu2v/4e%20CB.zip?dl=0

>>53038888
>That link is old af
So? It's not like there were any character builder updates after that one anyway. And it has the WotC.index to get all the 4e content that never got put into the offline builder.

>>53038888
>doesn't include adventure tools
Not sure what does are even supposed to be. The online only tools from D&D insider?

>>53038958
adventure tools is the offline monster editor, is was the shit.

>>53038958
also, i ran the updater and it worked so you are correct in that it is up to date

>>53038974
Okay that does sound really neat.

File: 8263890426_8da6f04f66_b.jpg (442KB, 673x1024px) Image search: [Google]

442KB, 673x1024px

This is my second favorite edition next to 3.5 and the whole thread is just 5efags autismoposting.

>Feels bad man

>>53039004
It's the holy grail of 4e, No one has an offline version.

>>53039034
I used to have an offline version.
There used to be one.

>>53039034
>>53039054
So I've got good news and bad news.
Good news is that I have an offline version of adventure tools (uploading as I type this).
Bad news is that it's not up to date. The most up-to-date version, AFAIK, is an update from August 2010. Latest I got is May 2010.

>>53039075
Appearently there's a december 2010 update as well. So I've got no clue what the latest version is but I have an offline version of adventure tools up-to-date to december 2010 (I haven't tested the december stuff yet).

>>53039075
>>53039132
no problem, I don't need it to be up to date, I just need it to make monsters.

>>53025557
>>53039034
>>53039054
>>53039075
>>53039132
Here you go anons.

https://mega.nz/#!5dUG3Axa!u0NSNPy2q4V-WzJg4Jy4BTM2ln-ygbpVswuJyJzjD_4

>>53039190
You are a saint.
Godspeed, anon.

A version with the December 2010 updates

https://mega.nz/#F!4RUx0azL!QyV-tpI2IPirtOSCsz4pgQ

>>53039245
All I see is an empty folder

>>53039259
Uploading is slower than expected, currently 30% done

>>53039190
>>53039245
Might as well have more than one.

>>53039190
>>53039245
It seems the updates are complete and not incremental given that they increased in size as time went one.
So if Dec2010 is the last one that got release that should be the only one that is needed.

>>53039361
good, that saves me having to get all of them

>>53039190
https://mega.nz/#F!8A92kZwb!uBJimNZc9Uu-BiJaQgeJwQ
Here's my collection with all the individual updates I could find.
As I said you probably only need the latest one but I'd rather have too much 4e content uploaded than not enough. The things tend to get lost as time goes on anyway.

>>53039431
And finally a non mega link for diversity
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ow9vdhzlvbdvk/D%26D_4e_Adventure_Tools

I can't get adventure tools to work. It takes me to the launch screen but the button to launch isn't highlighted and when i click on it it doesn't do anything.

>>53039551
You need to install at least one of the offline updates, preferably the latest one (december2010).

>>53039551
nm, you have to install the january update for it to work

>>53039575
In order of months or January then December?

>>53039688
If you go with these >>53039431 you just install the updates in order.
January, February etc.. with December last.
But the december update alone should be sufficient.

New Thread (Updated Links) >>53039990
New Thread (Updated Links) >>53039990
New Thread (Updated Links) >>53039990

>>53038979
>talks shit
>is wrong
>doesn't even apologize for being a shit

>>53029344
that wasn't even internally consistent.

>>53031099
>>53030651
I agree that there should be skill influence from stuff like half level, but take this into account when considering the fact that there has not been explicit instruction.

In discussing the evolution of language, some anthropologists once conducted a study trying to determine how much education it takes to pick up flintknapping (stone tool production). They separated test subjects into three groups, and had them be instructed in the production of Oldowan (the simplest) stone tools by people who were already experts in flintknapping.

One group was instructed using english, as the control; another through gesture; and a third just watched with no instruction.

After a bunch of watching and imitating, they had the students of stone tool production go off and try to make Oldowan tools on their own. Of the people who only watched, and were not instructed in stool tool production at all, basically none of them were able to make their own tools. Of those few who did, they were unable to teach it to a new generation of people. (The people who were instructed in english were nearly perfect at passing it on and producing themselves; the gestural people got about 75%)

I'm not saying that it's impossible to pick anything up by osmosis - but Oldowan tools can be effectively learned in the first few weeks of a semester of a flintknapping class. Lockpicking is a lot more complex than that, and having receieved no instruction, it seems like the barbarian isn't gonna be able to do it.

>>53034806
That was me.

I have sorta started. Going to the movies, will probably not post about it today, but gonna post tomorrow maybe, if interested.