New 40k Charge Phase

>>53001237
How'd you even find this? I dont see it on the community site yet.

>>53001237
>overwatch still present
>you still have two different phases in which you move your models
I don't get it
All the other changes so far were really sensible, why make such odd designchoices for melee?

>>53001237
>i dont like however that you can overwatch multiple times

It say's each unit can fire if you're charging multiples. Did it mention a single unit can overwatch more than once?

Is there any change other than the extra inch?

I wonder why they didnt bother accounting for their new movement profile overhauls, which is a big part of 8th. Seems like "movement+d6" would make more sense.

>>53001340
What's wrong with overwatch? Shooty armies need SOMETHING to stop the assault phase being 'remove one squad, cause zero casialties' every time.

>>53001349
Ya movement +d6 would make more sense

I may he reading it wrong, but it sounds like a single unit can overwatch more than once

"Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back."

>>53001340
>you still have two different phases in which you move your models
one is before shooting, the other is after

>>53001237
apart from gaining that extra inch I don't see any difference

>>53001369
But then you have the tau which stack markerlights and then just overwatch you at bs3 to bs4, thats the problem

Overwatch isnt bad, but they gotta remove the things that buff it like marker lights

>>53001349
>Did it mention a single unit can overwatch more than once?
yes

>Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.

>>53001349
>Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.

So if you declare a charge but don't make it in, they can overwatch the second squad charging at them too.

>>53001399
Yeah, but the issue there is markerlights, not overwatch. I play mech guard and sisters, overwatch is just about the only way for me to kill anything in assault.

>>53001415
Then they better fix marker lights because that would be fucking obnoxious getting overwatched multiple times on something besides bs1

Also not a fan of the 2d6 charge, wouls make sense for movement +d6

>non melee armies complaining that overwatch is the only thing keeping them alive
>in warhammer 40k nigga how the fuck is close combat even real just walk away nigga eddition

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EVERYTHING AS BEEN GOOD AND THIS IS PURE SHIT

>>53001369
Firstly, it's a weird exception to the I-go-U-go system and as such very counterintuitive

Secondly, it can't be denied, just diverted, and assured damage is generally shitty design. If you fuck up positioning you might not be able to charge/shoot. Overwatch WILL happen if you charge, no way to avoid it.

Thirdly, implementation is inelegant with the flat BS of 1, as it's weird a Marine and a grot have the same chance of hitting a charging gaunt.

Fourthly, investing enoung resources to remove one squad a round will make that unit a deathstar, and deathstars can be countered by clever positioning (see above). And if you don't get that oneturnkill, in 8th you can just disengage on your turn and shoot them to shit with the rest of your army.

Fifthly, it's kinda jarring to have units fire twice just because they're getting charged. why don't they always do that?

>Shooty armies need SOMETHING to stop the assault phase being 'remove one squad, cause zero casialties' every time
Bubble wrap, deploy smarter, countercharge. gunlines are boring to play against, overwatch just aids them.

I dislike having to declare the target of your charge in advance
Not having to do so in AOS is nice, and there isn't even any over watch there

i also was kind of hoping they'dd make charges more reliable
>>53001399
well with the way it's written you hit overwatch on a flat 6, doesn't have the "reduced to bs1" wording that the old overwatch had
and we don't even know how markerlights will work in the new edition

>>53001445
Yes, but the problem is still marketlights. Why fuck the guard over because the tau are broken?

>>53001465
What the fuck kind of melee unit can't put ten wounds on a t3 squad of fucking guardsmen without being a deathstar?


Not everything is a space marine.

>>53001383
>one is before shooting, the other is after
So? It's messy. Keep movement in the fucking movement phase, that's why it's the movement phase. What depth is added to the game by having charges after shooting? How does it further the need for strategy to justify the added encumbrance?

>>53001465
Holy fuck this on so many goddamn levels

>>53001496
>I need overwatch because otherwise i might lose one (1) squad of ten (10) guardsmen
Are you literally retarded?

>>53001521
>mechguard

>veteran squads are totally going to be fine in melee you guise!


Tell me about your space marines, friend :)

>>53001496
>What the fuck kind of melee unit can't put ten wounds on a t3 squad of fucking guardsmen without being a deathstar?
>>53001544

If a melee unit wipes out ten guardsmen in one round of combat it also costs 3 to 4 times as much as the guardsmen, so you just shoot them to shit next round.
Are you literally complaining that your 60 point unit doesn't get free damage on that 200 point unit that had to move out of position (so no sitting on objectives) to even get the CHANCE to deal damage to you which is still 100% reliant on not fucking up a single 2d6 roll?

So the new charge phase is a buff for shooting armies. Gosh what a shock GW.

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>Charging isn't done in the movement phase
>No 'durr double ur movement an hope u got in close lol'
>mfw

Thank fucking god.

That lame shit was cancerous enough back in Mordehiem, Necromundia, ruined any hope of Shadow war being good for combat armies, and i'm so glad it stayed the fuck away from the mainline game.

I'll take failing a 3 inch charge just because i rolled a double 1 anyday. and it sounds like you can't even fail that now with the +1 inch

>>53001591
No, I am complaining that my 170 point unit gets deleted with literally zero way of doing anything whatsoever in retaliation.

Quite how you think 'hits on a six' is free garanteed damage when most of the squad is using fucking lasguns is another matter.

>>53001237
While dossappinted, im not surprised the fucked up in regards to overwatch, since AOS was a field for them to test the new rules, and AOS does not have overwatch

They already said they were going to community play testing, and since the rulebook is free, i can see them changing this once everyone complai s about it

Markerlights shouldn't be a problem, OW shooting is hitting on a flat 6, not a reduction to BS 1. That is to say there is no way to improve that number.

>>53001615
Why do you dislike double movement (or movement+d6, or hell, 2d6 but in the movement phase)? You still have to hope you got in close.

>>53001621
>No, I am complaining that my 170 point unit gets deleted with literally zero way of doing anything whatsoever in retaliation.
Oh my, almost as if they had been shot at!
Also, what the fuck kind of units are you running that cost 170 points and die to average melee units (stormboyz, assault marines, etc) in one turn?

>multi overwatch
>2d6 charge range remains
>even though they added a fucking movement statistic
>everything in the game has an uncontestable fallback during its movement phase
>but +1"
>cover ignoring in melee matters less and shooty enemies with pistols can still fire them in cc

New GW came out of 7th with the stern conviction that assault was not unplayable enough yet

>>53001502
>What depth is added to the game by having charges after shooting?
the possibility of breaking a shielding chaff unit to charge the important target behind, for one.

>>53001621
Not the other anon

But dude this is stupid, because once they are done killing the unit the rest of your army can light them

It takes zero effort and risk to sit still and set up gun lines, but your opponent actually has to plan around the battlwfield to assault you, and if they do you just get free bullshit damage

Also find it amazing you expect guard to survive when they are flimsy as paper and in the lore last for like 2 seconds on the battlefield

>>53001667
Carapace armoured veterans with plasmaguns are not massively cheap units. And assault marines charging them will get what, four attacks each?

Not everything is a marine. Things that are not marines should not exist purely to be deleted by marines with absolutely zero chance to ever do a damn thing.

>>53001646

mind you, the whole 'charging out of transports, means that it's a lot easier to make that overwatch the only shooting the Unit takes.

>>53001496
>you can never hit on a better than a 3+
>half the assault units in the game are missing critical USRs like grenades, fleet, better than 6" moves
>previously "assault" units still had shit like I2 on the statline
>overwatch

>>53001465
>Firstly, it's a weird exception to the I-go-U-go system and as such very counterintuitive
you don't get to punch me in the combat fase on my turn and we'll talk about me not hitting you on 6's in the charge fase
>Secondly, it can't be denied, just diverted
pinning
>Thirdly, implementation is inelegant with the flat BS of 1, as it's weird a Marine and a grot have the same chance of hitting a charging gaunt.
there are rules that increase overwatch chance. luckily those are rare because overwatch is a consolation prize for the fact that if the charge succeeds, you aren't going to be shooting the next turn
>Fourthly, investing enoung resources to remove one squad a round will make that unit a deathstar, and deathstars can be countered by clever positioning (see above). And if you don't get that oneturnkill, in 8th you can just disengage on your turn and shoot them to shit with the rest of your army.
that's just blatantly false, i've lost full squads to a single surviving bloodletter because i lost combat, failed leadership and got swooping advanced
>Fifthly, it's kinda jarring to have units fire twice just because they're getting charged. why don't they always do that?
it's a game, it doesn't make sense at all
my guardsmen fire twice if we use 18th century volley fire with semi automatic lasrifles but if left to fire at will they somehow only fire once

>>53001671
We still dont know if you can sweep units falling back or rengange them with a consolidation type move, that is likely to come out tomorrow in the fight subphase

>>53001667
>Why do you dislike double movement

As i said, too many years of playing GW side games with that shit system, so the enemy just has to walk away from you to never get charged, even back when pre-measuring wasn't common

I'll take the random 2d6 'gotcha bitch' over that. And they even made it better than AoS. which asks you be half an inch in to secure the charge.

>>53001459

explains >>53001544

>oh no my army of mass pie plates doesn't do well when I take cheap special weapon squads designed to shoot something and die that get tied up in CC

>>53001615
>durr double ur movement an hope u got in close lol
There's no hoping about that, unless you're one of those retards who can't gauge distances without a measuring aid. There's no variable, it's always the same distance.

>>53001702
Hopefully you can charge out of rhinos this time

>>53001702
Wait did they say you can now charge out of any transport?

If so im aboit to buy an asston of rhinos

>>53001771
I think they did, a while back.

Maybe I can use my repentia for once.

>>53001739
This
Guard players are the worst kind of players

Atleast nid players understand that 80%of their grunts are gonna get taken out, guard players just bitch when their normal humans in a galaxy filled with abnormal and exceptional aliens get torn to shreds

Was playing a guard player who had over 120 infantry models and sperged out because i wiped out a 10 man squad with 4 assault cannons

>>53001682
>the possibility of breaking a shielding chaff unit to charge the important target behind, for one.
That could be solved by having consolidation into melee, which is a much rarer movement so does not encumber as much, and benefits the melee unit as it can remove chaff by way of its preference rather than relying on shooty support or being able shoot themselves. granted it's movement outside the move phase again, but it's a little more thematic and less common.

>>53001700
>CarapaceVets with Plasmaguns
120 points
10 Assault Marines swing with three attacks each, hitting on 3+ so 2 hit
wounding on 3+s so 4/3 per marine hit.
Vets save o 4+ so 2/3 per marine hit.
10 Marines -> 20/3 so roughly 7 Vets die.
7 is not 10, and 120 is not 170, stop inflating the numbers.

>>53001744
>>53001771

Yep. That's why I understand keeping overwatch. As getting to melee without otherwise getting shot got a chunk easier.

>>53001715
The movement phase post was very clear that during your phase you get to disengage. I don't know why there are people talking about sweeping when they've clearly stated it just disallows the disengaging unit from acting further.

How would you even sweep without initiative?

>>53001791
SOMEONE CONFIRM
gonna cum my pants if this is true

>>53001824
Well movement fisengagw only happens during your next movement phase, so there is a big chance that assault units have a chance to rengage with you

They also never mentioned reconsolidation, which im sure is still a thing

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>>53001700
>carapace armored plasma vets should be able to survive in combat after being charged by dedicated assault squads, all of which by definition have little to no access to plasma at all
>assault marines have what, 6 attacks each?
god DAMN

>>53001811
My bad, the 170 includes their tank.

7 dead vets and i3 means you are going to lose the squad to a sweeping advance almost every time.

>>53001709
>you don't get to punch me in the combat fase on my turn and we'll talk about me not hitting you on 6's in the charge fase
I agree, the current system is dumb too, and if the rumors are true the mini-I-go-U-go will be a lot more fitting. One broken thing however does not justify another, you nigger.

>pinning
you mean the thing we don't even know is still in the game because morale has been reworked and even then is mostly found in the shooty armies and not the coppy ones? great solution m8

>there are rules that increase overwatch chance. luckily those are rare because overwatch is a consolation prize for the fact that if the charge succeeds, you aren't going to be shooting the next turn
>waah I miss a round of shooting
>meanwhile melee armies get like 2 or 3 rounds of melee per game
amazing logic anon

>that's just blatantly false, i've lost full squads to a single surviving bloodletter because i lost combat, failed leadership and got swooping advanced
swooping advance is gone next edition, so a moot point

>it's a game, it doesn't make sense at all
not even the attempt at an argument

what kind of learning disability do you have? genuinely curious.

>>53001736
You do realize they can just be further than 12 inches, the maximum possible roll on a 2d6, away from you correct?

The only "gotcha" happening with a 2d6 charge range is when you roll a 4 and your unit looks at their dicks for a turn before getting obliterated

>>53001854
>>53001854
Except now initiative is not a thing, so your entire point is moot

>>53001826
First, grab a tissue, jizz stains are bad.
Second, yes. That's news from a month or two ago.

>>53001736
Did you even read my post? Would you be opposed to a 2d6 or move+d6 system in the move phase? If yes, why?

>>53001854
sweeping advance is gone and losing a dedicated ranged unit to a melee unit of equal points without chance at retaliation is no less dumb than losing a dedicated melee unit to a ranged unit. i really can not see how one could be this mentally challenged as to not understand this simple symmetry.

why are guard players such retards?

>>53001846
>You get assaulted
>You move your tarpit troops out of the assault with no checks, no hassle, ostensibly the other guy gets no reaction?
>Your army can now shoot the guys that otherwise would not have been able to have been shot at, and almost certainly will because they are the immediate threat
>Your boys die before you can even move them again

My favorite part of people explaining why these rule changes aren't awful is when they tell me they are certain of other rule changes to come

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>>53001889
>tfw assault marines will no longer need jump packs and can just be stuffed into rhinos, effecticly allowing them to move 18 inches and then charge 2d6 in one turn

>>53001868
No shit, but that's why you move up first. that's why movement then charging is always better.

If the enemy is like 18 inches away then fuck it charging isn't an option unless you pray for a full 6 inch move closer AND a double 6 roll, so it's a non-argument

>>53001811
>consolidation into melee
that situation implies you can't ever achieve surgical first strikes with any unit

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>>53001925
>lol your stupid for makeing assumptions

You know this entire thread is basically about assumptions of upcoming rules right?

>mfw i read your bullshit story

>>53001926
Finally a more realistic Donald Duck Benis.

What? Carry on.

>>53001951
u wot m8

>>53001237
Fuck that is so little information. Couldn't they have at least included how pile in works now that there is no initiative?

>>53001978
>charge in charge phase after shooting:
>remove unit x shielding unit y during shooting phase to charge the latter with specialist unit z

>charging during movements but consolidation:
>specialist unit z has to first win against shielding unit x to get to y in the next turn

>>53001621
Positioning and using cover is how you stop yourself from dying. Pretty obvious modern war convention, but I suppose it had to be made obvious for some people.

>>53002037
so what's your problem with that? If you're charging with z it's probably already a killer-unit in melee

>>53001383

I believe now you "fail forward" if you don't make the charge? Like if you need a 6 and you roll a 5, in previous editions you would stay where you are. Now you move the 5.

>>53001866
>One broken thing however does not justify another, you nigger.
it's not broken
>you mean the thing we don't even know is still in the game
i was talking about 7th
i don't see why something like pinning wouldn't be in 8th though
>meanwhile melee armies get like 2 or 3 rounds of melee per game
which evens out because you also strike in your opponents turn
>swooping advance is gone next edition, so a moot point
we haven't gotten info on the combat fase yet. My example was from 7th , So were your complaints I assumed, since you most likely haven't even played 8th yet
>not even the attempt at an argument
the argument is that this whole game is based on arbitrary rules that make no sense in the larger scale of things. so attempting to say "this rule makes no sense because of other rules" is irrelevant.

>>53002127
>i don't see why something like pinning wouldn't be in 8th though
because morale is now battleshock?
are you that dense?

>>53001806
That's why I went Renegade. Into the grinder! Capture it for Chaos! Hope we're included in "Forge World Support"!

>>53002153
ah yes because now leadership is gone there is absolutely no way to implement anything of the sort ever again ?
everyone at gw is a braindead moron and they couldn't possibly come up with a way to replace pinning tests now that they can't use 2d6 for leadership.

>>53002099
killer units more often then not can be divided into 2 types: hit hard or hit a lot, the first is good against large targets the second against swarms, very rarely they are both and some times they can get countered if they don't get an alpha strike on their ideal target.

on top of inevitably leaving unit y survive another turn in a way like this, you also leave the defending player in an easy position to decide what unit to send against what.

you're reducing the ability to counter enemy plans for no reason at all except to move all units in the same phase pretending it significantly speeds up gameplay enough to justify the simplification.

You know, I've been around for a while and know that fundamentally /tg/ is bad at most of the games that it talks about. But never could I have imagined that I would see people try and use the existence of pinning as a justification for overwatch in 40k

Even the most basic unit with 7 leadership and no benefits whatsoever passes a pinning test most of the time. You're talking about needing multiple units with pinning weapons to routinely, successfully deny the overwatch of one of the most throwaway units in the entire game

>>53002292
>pretending it significantly speeds up gameplay enough to justify the simplification
Nigga I'm not pretending. Moving is no joke the part of 40k that takes the longest. Consolidating movement into one action could easily shave off like 25% of your total time per game, there's a reason they did it for shooting.

>>53002348
>Moving is no joke the part of 40k that takes the longest.
moving the entite army is one thing, charging is another, way rarer matter entirely.

>>53002387
not for orks or melee nids

Looks slightly better, hope you cannot make OW any better like you could with Tau shit. Plus the 1 inch thing is cool.

This along with the new cover rules that give marines and their equivalents a 2+ save against shooting really bother me and makes me wonder if GW learned anything from 7th :\

>>53002419
Nigga I play nid, I know how much time it takes to perform charge movements; the fact you have an enemy unit to move towards speeds it up considerably.

it's running that can easily get boring or unnerving and they got rid of that

>>53001369
I thought that was part of the reason they added the new falling back move, so that assaults weren't something that you could get caught in and were more like a close range shooting attack.

If a marine squad runs up to your Tau and shoots them in the open, you don't need Over watch, you just back up the survivors and have other squads shoot them back.

If a marine squad assaults the Tau, it would be the same thing now.

But for some reason they need another 6+ to make up for the fact they can't be locked in anymore?

>>53001445
The real answer there would be to remove supporting fire. That's what busts the new system, since u,its that don't get charged could Over watch for mutiple allied squads in one turn.

It also cuts out markerlight boosting on the charge

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>>53001811
Don't forget currently those 3 guard then have to moral check then fail because their Sargeant bit the dust in a challenge. So now they run and lol the space Marines catch them. Some of the most infuriating shit that has happened to me has been because of that.

>19 guardsmen charge 1 lone space Marines
>Magically they all fail to hit the little fucker
>The marine swings and kills one dude.
>I fail moral and run
>The marine rolls to catch me and kills off all remaining 18 guardsmen.
>MFW

>Oh yes, I get 1 free inch charge range!
>Units can now fire multiple overwatch per turn
FUCK

>2D6 charge still in

Another edition of tyranid and ork melee armies being shit then

>>53002578
>>53002581
Don't forget that you can universally Run/Advance before charging now. With the 1" that's a minimum 4" range, if you want to get technical. Puts you at an average of 11 as well.

>>53002578
It sounds like they can only multifire if the charge fails

>>53001925
Well just remember to give your assault forces pistols and hope that assault troops become more durable.

>>53002581
You know you get to run and charge now, right?

>>53001237
>lets introduce movement values!
>but they dont matter when you run or charge

great job gw

>>53001671
>>2d6 charge range remains
>>even though they added a fucking movement statistic

2D6 is purely a consequence of allowing premeasuring not the movement statistic. Otherwise positioning starts to get really deterministic and can lead to analysis paralysis. Warmachine can have that problem but gets around it with tons of movement and position modifying spells. 40k has no real equivalent.

>>53002677
Advancing I can understand but not the charge.

Was hoping M+d6

>>53002581
Especially with sweeping advance gone. Now the tarpit is real.

Anyone know if the defensive fire has a range, or if its any unit within range of the enemy charging? Because that will really fuck shit up if marines or tau can just sit still and gun line the individual charging squads.

Also for anyone contemplating the IG scenario, if you add a commissar you still have the 3 model end round size, because if you fail inevitably you kill a unit and proceed right? And commisars come with a power weapon, as do sergeants. So keep command in the back and let the heavy weapon soak wounds?

Here's a great tidbit from the post they did on the movement phase

"If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!"

The official community post posits one of the downsides of falling back is the enemy can shoot at your guys, despite it being your turn, after you deliberately had them leave combat which was otherwise /the/ way to prevent being shot at. This game is so linearly designed around shooting the downside of moving your guys so that you can shoot at the enemy................. is that you can also be shot at.

lol this is going to be the worst meta imaginable

>>53002240
>everyone at gw is a braindead moron
now you understand

>>53002621
>if
>implying it won't regularly fail for me

>>53001671
Most melee forces utilize pistols. The only real loser there is Nids and GW could make things like fleshborers pistols if they wanted. And it's really only tac marines/CSM and battle sisters that typically pack the backup pistols. Are you afraid of Tac marines?

>>53002761
I'm running on the traditional definition of if, not the XCOM/realistic definition

>>53002563
those are incredibly bad rolls that happen very infrequently

>>53002724
The downside is that they don't otherwise get to act and will have no offensive output that turn.

>>53002724
what's the fallback distance? same as the movement stat?

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>>53001349
>movement+d6
This is a really good idea actually. I might house-rule this.

>>53001415
Pistols can now be used in melee, Penitent Engines will be MCs, and if you charge first you go first, so Sisters melee capabilities just increased by like 500%.

>>53002697
>Tarpit
Fearless is gone. Melee will be far more.l lethal for overmatched forces. Even a battleshock re-roll isn't going to save you if you're getting absolutely crushed.

>>53002850
Its going to get ridiculous with Jump pack units that have 15 movement and ridiculous things like that.

The house rule my group used towards the end of 7th was adding initiative to the 2d6 rule, but still having that result cap at 12 barring other modifiers. It made things a lot more reliable, but kept the max threat range the same

>>53001237
I'm not sure how this will fix the current state of melee in 40k. I don't think +1" to charge range is enough to compensate for multiple overwatch and falling back. I could be wrong though, we'll have to see how well it works in practice.

>>53002846
Same as movement, though it means a unit can't do anything on its next turn.

>>53002697
>if you fail inevitably you kill a unit and proceed right?
Expect commissars to work totally differently.

>>53002838
i still think the new rules favor shooting over melee a great deal
for a melee army to neutralize (not kill) enough enemy units to not get vaporized next turn after their targets fall back it would need to assault most if not all of tbe enemy units capable of retaliation
in other words, if you are playing a choppy army you either get the win in one bloodfest of a turn or not at all

>>53002878
This is also a good idea.

>>53002697
You mean supporting fire? It's 6" in 7th. But It's entirely possible, or even likely that Tau won't even have it in 8th.

>>53002896
Yeah, unfortunately they removed initiative as a stat. I think you could translate it well though by having charge distance be 1/2 of movement +2d6, still capping at 12.

Something like a Terminator would have a garunteed 5 inches that way, and that's be at the slower end of models.

I think charging out of all vehicles, +1" range and running+charging in the same turn should help basic assault units enough that firing overwatch more than once isn't a big deal.

Cause think about it: how often does the enemy have the opportunity to fire more than once? They have to completely wipe the charging unit to be ready for the next one.

Now, instead of a successful charge by a cheap unit eating overwatch for a different unit, you can negate the usefulness of your target by forcing them to flee.

>>53002894
Perhaps. But assault ranges seem like they may be much further than they were in 7th for a number of reasons. And who knows, maybe frag grenades are still around but now they just suppress overwatch. We haven't seem the whole picture yet.

>>53001659
BS is changed to a dice roll though, so marker lights will definitely no longer increase ballistic skill, they will likely +1 to to hit rolls, which could easily be argued to affect overwatch. It's all speculation though.

>>53003005
All vehicels are assault vehicles, advance(run) and shoot seems to be universal, and armies with decent movement will also be moving further.

And while orks might be slow on foot, what happens if you put them in a red trukk? Speeds things up. I'm hype.

>>53003023
It'll be neat if Orks got new rules for different vehicle paintjobs

>Red for ~3" of extra movement
>Blue for rerolling armor/ramshackle saves
>Yellow for rerolling shooting
>Black for extra toughness/wounds
>Purple for -1 for enemies to hit

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H-H-His he right ??
And are burna boys basically unchargeable ???

>>53003111
This would be awesome.

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>>53003111
>mfw i put every color on the model

>>53002829
>those are incredibly bad rolls that happen very infrequently

They happen far more than I would like. Which is why I now have a couple of commissars. As it stands I don't think I have had a melee fight with any army other than tau where I inflict more wounds in assault than they do. The only thing that saves me in assault is striking first, stubborn and having twice as many bodies in the fight.

I am just happy that I can get out of combat now.

>>53003176
I'd imagine it would still behave like now, where it's an upgrade for points, or otherwise being something you select from like chapter tactics.

At most, painting something a variety of colors lets you use different benefits in different games easily

>>53003163
Wait could you pack two units in a checkerboard pattern where the guys are still in coherency with their squad but mixed with another squad? That way the front rank will consist of two "different units".

>>53003111
Purple isn't an Ork color though. That's fanon. Camouflage is what Kommandos and Blood Axes use.

>>53002615
I don't think they have expressly said you can or can't run and charge at all, I wouldn't assume it.

>>53003209
I would picture it like a zipper

>>53002665
Source? where was this implied?

That doesn't help Orkz but Hormagaunts, Gargoyles and Raveners got a got better if so

>>53003221
They said Advancing prevents you from shooting. Why wouldn't they also say it prevents you from charging?

>>53001237
>Mostly the same rules, except now multiple overwatch
Oh god damn it. Fuck you GW, it was a great strategy to charge with a unit that almost certainly wouldn't make it to eat the overwatch. And why random charge distances again? Give it a static number.

There had better be consolidating into combat, or else my Tyranids are not gonna be good for yet another edition. At least I have GSC.

Pistols are the future - charge, shoot flame pistols in combat, win combat and kill more with leadership check, flame pistol squad again when the fall back, etc.

>>53003111
I would like this but only if these ablities come with a army wide point cost like imperial cults and militia provenances in 30k. I.E. 20pts for army all troops to be +1 toughness(black orks) or 15pts to make all yellow flyers +1 strength.

Also I hope guard would get the same treatment. 20pts for tallarn desert rangers(move through cover + reroll ones) and so on.

This stuff should be our equivalent of chapter tactics.

>>53003303
Yeah. Army-wide special rules like that to customize a force should really be a thing for every army. Guard Regiments, Ork Klans, Hive Fleet Strains, you name it

>"Yeah guys, close combat is going to be viable again!"

>Unlimited overwatch
>Get shot by pistols even when locked in
>Enemy unit can just walk away at any point

Say hello the New Games Workshop (tm), same as the old Games Workshop.

>>53003216
>Implying 40k canon isn't a meme in itself

if dubs purple paint will make it into 8th Orkz

>>53003336
exactly.

>>53003191
>a lone marine swept one of my guard squads once
>melee in general must pay the price

>>53003566
wut pistol cannot shoot then ass? or is it now a general rule that if you shoot you don't ass?

>>53003566
>and you can't shoot then assault
where did you read that ?

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>>53002850
>mfw I did melee SoB in 7th
>It kind of worked

>>53003594
you can shoot and then assault, but you could do that before

now you can also shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while locked in combat, except that the enemy unit can disengage before that moment

in all likelyhood pistols stop giving people an additional attack for 2 weapons since they can shoot, so coupled with the above assault units got nerfed

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>>53003387
>nooo don't insult the fanfluff
It's a dumb meme because ork camo has always been a fucking joke, and tying it to a singular colour is either missing the point real fuckin' hard, or being ignorant of the pre-existing joke fluff.

Camouflage is something orks aped from the imperials they fight. It's not some inherent orky thing (which is why blood axes are seen as oddballs for using it at all). And when they try and make their own rather than loot it from the humans, it always ends up in vibrant, clashing colours. Yellow and blue tiger stripes, red and black splatter, orange and yellow digicam. Essentially dazzle camo, because the orks don't understand how camouflage works and think the patterns are what does it rather than the colours. Same reason the nobs'll wear peaked caps and make primitive medals for their bosses.

>>53003699
so the fuck are we supposed to play? tau eldar and whatever marine chapter they choose to exalt for the current edition?

>>53001237
This edition seems to be a mix of AoS, 40k classic, and LotRSBG. It looks like it'sshaping up to be a good edition.

>>53003732
>so the fuck are we supposed to play?

Good Space Marines vs Bad Space Marines.

>>53003699
pistols have 12 inch range
you disengage at movement value + d6
to get away from a pistol unit after melee you'dd need to move away 12 inches + the movement value of said unit
to even have a chance of getting away from the pistol shots you'dd need a base movement of 10 inches and roll a 6 to get away from a unit with bolt pistols

>>53003711
>Shooting article. You can't shoot then assault
quote the relevant part in the article, I don't find it

>>53003759
only if you play shooty armies

>>53003711
i reread the whole article and it doesn't mention it at all

>>53003711
[Citation needed]

>>53001237
Welp. guess i'm avoiding tau and guard players for another edition.

>>53003711
Eh, not sure what indo-china hamster-trading board you read that on, but it's fucking wrong.
>>53003699
>>53003594
>>53003566
See https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/30/new-40k-shooting-phase-apr30gw-homepage-post-4/

>>53003777
First of all, the point I was making is that you'll not use your pistols while locked, not that you won't use your pistols before charging again

Also pistols shoot at the closest target only

>>53003761
Big good marines vs small bad marines

Because non black and white concept are to hard for the kids

>>53003111
It sounds good, but with havung to uodate so much stuff all at once i wouldn't expect anything new in the initial 8e army rules.
This is the kind of the that might happen in the eventual 8e ork codex.

>>53003816
fucking GW is keeping me from making a second army
i play eldar and have considered guard, orkz, or nidz but guard vehicles being shit compared to wraithknight and riptides (and orks being shit in general and having old as fuck models) has kept me from it
i'm no tryhard but getting stomped 4 out of 5 games ain't no fun (which happened often before the current ed. and wraithknight degeneracy)

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>>53003864
New CSM models are the same size as and possibly even bigger than numarines.

>>53003891
>codex
you have some reading to do sweet child. no more codices

GUYS I'M CONFUSED.

Confirm or deny something for me.

Charging will always let you move closer. Currently, if you fail a charge you simply do not move. In 8th, you just move that much and if you make it within 1 inch you can charge.

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>>53003700
>>53003387

The dubz came late but we got there we did it boyz

Purple warpaint confirmed for 8th. confers -1 to hit for all enemy ranged weapons in the shooting phase

Now to spread the word to BoLS!

>>53003371
We don't know everything yet, though its wortg noting that with advancung not forbidding charging and the 1 inch cc range melee units will be getting into combat from further away.

Also we could see melee retain the strength based armour mods like in SW:A or old fantasy. So while basic guns don't have AP, most cc units can expect at least -1 in close combat to be a bugger threat.

>>53001237
It's pretty painful. Between the option to fall back from combat, everyone getting multiple over watches and random charge ranges. Melee units are suffering quite a bit in this edition.

We'll see how bad it hurts when the full system lands. Since all the codexes are getting revamped at once, we might see a rebalancing of shooting vs melee there.

>>53003912
Still good vs evil. Which is rather boring

>>53003974
Yeah. Currently in 7th if your marines are 20 inches away, you have no chance at getting into an assault. With these changes, you could move 6, advance 4, and only need to roll a 9 to get into CC.

Still requires some above-average rolls, but you can see how that would work out nicely for any unit faster than marines. Plus, even if you fall short, you're right next to them for next turn.

>>53001369
Shooty armies did fine in 4e and 5e, because they had a whole phase in which they can blow away units that might charge them.

If they've amped up charging, keeping overwatch as a balance seems fine, but there's no fundamental need for an overwatch mechanic.

>>53004076
Still 2" to 12" range is way to random.

Can you picture the game if shooting was like that? Choose target, roll to see range, not enough, miss shooting.
On top of that Melee gets shot more even if they fail.

>>53001381
>Ya movement +d6 would make more sense
This. It would have removed a lot of the random element. If you've got a 6 inch move being able to guarantee a charge out to 7(8 with the engagement range) beats hoping on an average of 7.

>>53001544
>>53001806
I play guard. You really need to get your head around the concept of acceptable casualties.

>>53001854
You have to be a bit slow to shell out for carapace armor, unless you're really doing it for fluff reasons. It's simply not worth the investment to keep them alive.

And if they're outside their ride, they're pretty much a write off.

>>53004036
Of course in this particular instance we have the Thousand Sons, we are tragic villains that a lot of people find themselves rooting for.

>>53003920
They've confirmed on facebook (or Twitter maybe i cant remeber exactly).
Going forward codexs will still be a thing, they're just temporarily condensing everyone into 5 army rules books to make it simpler to get everyone's rules out all at once.

>>53004076
>you're right next to them for next turn
while i agree with the first part of your post i disagree with this
if the charge movement is mandatory (i other words you cannot forfeit it if you roll poorly) it could end badly for the assailant

You know, assault armies really need some way to respond to the shooting phase. Maybe assault units should get the option to make a free melee attack at WS1 against any ranged unit which shoots at them. They just don't have a chance to reply to the shooting phase as things currently stand.

>>53004076
You couldn't run and charge before. They haven't yet said you can advance and charge now.

You can't make assumptions that you will get to do something on an absence of information.

On the available information combat is shit.

Also failing a charge puts you right next to them for next turn? Really? A whole turn of being shot and counter charged (losing the first attack under new rules)? Awesome...

>>53004194
sauce

Its still better than 7th edition, but not by much, making it 6+ 1d6 would go a long way

>>53004166
>Can you picture the game if shooting was like that? Choose target, roll to see range, not enough, miss shooting.
In the grim dark future it's always night. Enjoy your night fighting rules.

>>53004167

Movement + D6 would be a bit too much, to be honest. I don't care for random charge ranges, but that significantly extends the reliable charge range. Better to just do Movement, like it used to be, or Movement plus a fixed value.

>>53004256
or just give them a charge stat and be done with it

>>53004245
Or move stat + 1D6

>>53004218
They said if you Advance, you can't shoot.

Why would they not say if you Advance, you can't shoot or charge?

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What if sweeping advance was resolved as another charge?
What if said new charge didn't allow overwatch?
What if units caught by a sweeping advance get to fight in that same phase or it gets resolved next turn but the unit charged through a sweep can't disengage?

>>53004320
because they're merciful?

>>53004256
Eh. If advancing doesn't stop charges, it's going to be about 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

>>53004256
Could do 1/2 movement to the roll instead. That would ensure a better minimum charge distance for the faster assault units at least

>>53004327
maybe they are releasing rule spoilers because in truth they haven't finished the rules and are covertly crowdsourcing from the community

Finally they fucked something up. I knew things were looking too good.

Time to start my Tau army

>>53004214
Overwatch is still BS 6+. The assaulting unit is basically going first if it makes combat. If slugga Boyz are still 4 attacks on the charge at strength 4 that's 40 attacks from a squad of 10, not factoring Nobz with PK or BC. Units are going to get smashed by Orks now.

>>53004320
Because they are only really explaining the differences between this version and the current? Preeeeetty huge change to leave for interpretation in an article about the explicit changes.

Unless they say it has changed, you can't just jump to conclusions that it has changed. These aren't 'the rules' they're drip fed marketing info.

You're attempting to read between the lines and are making assumptions.

>>53003216
LIES!

>>53004427
is overwatch still a single shot?

>>53004446
what did he mean by this?

>>53004427

The 6+ to hit is another great argument against keeping it. Why force people to roll all those dice and slow the assault phase down immensely when you're barely getting any hits anyways?

>>53004434
Right so if we assume they're only listing changes, and everything else is the same, that means you can't run and charge.

Except that doesn't mattee, because they removed running.

They also added this new mechanic and then listed the things it prevents you from doing later in the turn. Charging wasn't on that list.

>>53004482
overwatching miniatures fire a single shot regardless of their weapon profile

>>53004446
I don't think they've verified that. I can't believe so many people are sperging about overwatch. GW have vastly improved charging and it's still not good enough. I'm stoked as a Ork player for 8e now.

>>53004427
Ah yes a squad of 10 Orks floated like a daisy across the battlefield without suffering a scratch.

I want to play the 40k you've been playing in magical fairy land. Orks are going to be butchered in this edition. Again.

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>>53004503
Since when? Why did none tell me?

>>53004503
doesn't say so, so I'd assume not.

>>53004525
I think the implication is that they started at 20+

>>53004495
Yeah. The only time Over watch ever does anything is when you buff your BS to normal with special rules.

What would be better is if they made it so 1 model fired overwatch, but did it at full BS. Any single model could only Over watch once per turn though.

Now you've got cases where that Dev squad is more likely to kill one guy on the charge, but you're only rolling a couple shots at most. If there's only 1 heavy weapon in the unit, it's easy to overwhelm them as well.

So orkz is still shit? Even without initiative. Sigh.

>>53004525
Put them in trukks or battlewagons. Must we do all the thinking for you?

>>53004503
But that's wrong?

>>53004502
Again you're inferring, from an ARTICLE not the rules, that because they they didn't list it you can't do it.

If it was the rule book I would agree you would be able to charge because that would be the rules as written. But you can't make that assumption from some dumb hype article.

>>53004514
you are stoked because you finally get Initiative 10 in melee, which narrows the gap between the abyss which your army inhabits and the rest of the bad armies
melee is still crappy in the new ed.
perhaps running a single melee elite unit could be feasible, but melee oriented armies are still subpar

>>53004495
This. Assault is already unreliable with random rolls. Also, not using the move stat for the charge is fucking retarded.

Tacking on overwatch is even more stupid. Overwatch, if it should exist at all should be a declared stance for units so they can react to any one movement

>>53001811
You forgot armour save modifiers in your Mathhammer.

>>53004543
No one knows anything except the butt mad Ork player that wanted his orks to have the durability of mega nobz and the initiative of a solitaire

>>53004563
the question was about whether in the new edition overwatch is one shot per mini OR weapon profile per mini

>>53004556
>trukks

Nigga you'll be lucky if one boy makes it across the field. i can't see why Explosions won't still be a thing just because vehicles are now 'monsters'

>wagons
That's more like it. but fuck if they aren't expensive

>>53001237
What annoys me is that it's not overwatch thats the issue. It's the random range with the charge.

The reason why melee was solid back in 3rd-5th was you had the reliable 6inch charges. The bullshit of that was was you could sweeping advance into unit after unit like some kind of steam roller.

I'm not seeing where, especially with the addition of movement stats that random 3inch-12inch charges have their place. Where a M+D6+1 would be fine (giving most units a 6-11 charge)

>>53004327

>you can now once more consolidate into melee
>they don't get overwatch

Will the madmen actually do it?

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>>53004534
it's almost like you don't even play 40k

>>53004540
The only time overwatch does anything is fucking Tau.

>>53004633

Ultimately I'm ok with the random charge given the 'you must get within 1" bit because it shifts the odds pretty favorably on most mid range charges.

>>53004682
Play a puzzle, desu?

>>53001288
dont click 40k just look at there overall

>>53004702
Or Dark Angels. Or other units that can fire at more than BS 1 with their snapshots

>>53004446
yes

>>53004743
or actually; see this:
>>53004514

Based on all the assurances GW has given on their FB page, the actual fight phase must have some spectacular buffs to assault units.

Perhaps Marines being Ld 7 is a sign that units losing combat badly will actually explode in this edition.

>>53004633
Movement should not be random period.

There's no good reason for it. It's not realistic by any stretch of the imagination, especially in a game where everything is abstracted already. It doesn't make the game strategic or tactical since you can't reliably move troops.

>>53004730

I don't think we're going to see many of those things survive in to 8th - that said the number of times OW has impacted my games is so slim that I'm still not concerned. I mean a 7" charge has a 72.22% chance of succeeding at this point so you aren't going to be missing a ton of charges.

>>53004788
Killing the unit you charge has never really been the problem. Its easy to blender a squad once you're in base to base.

The problem is the before of getting to that point and the after of standing in an empty field picking your nose while you get blasted.

>>53004714
Overwatch pushes it back the other way, if you've got to remove models from the front.

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>>53004682
>RESOLVE OVERWATCH
>Few warriors sit idly by when an enemy horde descends upon them, but let fly with every weapon at their command. Though such shots are often inaccurate (there’s not much time to aim, and there’s something distinctly off-putting about the onset of a bellowing foe), each has a chance of felling an enemy and altering the balance of the ensuing melee before it even begins. In fact, a particularly lucky burst of Overwatch fire can rob a charge of so much momentum that it comes to a stumbling halt!
>As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker – it doesn’t have to, but it’s often a good idea.
>An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, >Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.
>Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

>Overwatch Restrictions
>It is worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch –
we can assume that other events have their full attention. Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn.

What game are YOU playing?

>>53004824
True. I'm sure they'll probably remove Supporting Fire. Infinite Overwatch doesn't work otherwise

>>53004840

Not really - unless you've completely conga lined the charging unit - you have a roughly 75% chance to make a 7" charge now so your chances are pretty solid even with an OW wound or two.

>>53004865

>Q: How many shooting attacks can I do when firing Overwatch?
A: As many as the model can fire in the Shooting phase.

Learn to FAQ before you speak.

>>53004902
>Learn to FAQ before you speak.
That doesn't change what I'm saying at all, unless you're mistaking me for>>53004682

>>53004902
so, now that flamers are no longer template weapons does that mean they overwatch for 8 shots?

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>Scions are KDK are gone in 8th

Post sources and facts to back this up or choke on a dick

>>53004840

"Remove the closest model" is so torturous as a form of allocation that I cannot imagine it will persist into 8th. 4th's really was the way to go, for my money. Removing whoever you want makes things so much simpler.

>>53004944
removed as an independent codex or removed as a unit choice for IG?

>>53004987
independent codex, no way in hell the models are gone.

>>53004935

I'd assume they OW at d6 shots that automatically hit since that's how their profile works in shooting.

>>53005006
do they automatically hit in shooting? I didn't see anything to make that assumption.

>>53004997
fuck

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>>53005043

Posted from the community page on the weapons preview.

>>53005043
Then you didn't read the profile, it literally says it automatically hits.

>>53001806
This
I can understand the frustration of guard since vehicles are shit in 7th, but holy fuck so they whine when their infantry gets killed

The whole point of playing guard is because you want a cheap disposable units, yet when they get disposed of they freak out

>>53005006
>>53005043
i mean
would you charge a bunch of guys holding flamethrowers?

>>53004997
>>53004944
fuck, fuck, fuck
where did you read that?

>>53005175

Probably not - I mean they should be real nasty to charge.

>>53005175
Burna Booooooyz!!!!!

>>53005175
from behind

>>53005241

Depending on how shooting out of vehicles works Burna Boyz could get nasty.

>>53005279
> 8th Ed.
> where flamers glance super heavies to death

>>53001237

Can someone explain the 2D6 things, is this on top of your move? Does this include running or 'advance' as it's now called?

I assume the smegmarines can explain it.

>>53005241
>>53005279
>D99 Extermination Squad with 9(!) heavy flamers
>and a regular flamer on the sergeant for good measure
>they can deep strike and have preferred enemy
Muh dick.

>>53005279
I hope so!

the question is
can we assault from vehicles and out of deep strike?

>>53005322

It works exactly like how it works right now. You move your normal move then charge 2D6" and must finish that charge move within 1" to launch a charge.

>>53005344

If KO are any judge yes you will be able to assault out of vehicles.

>>53005322
from what I understand you can move, advance then charge

>>53004675
>Will the madmen actually do it?
At times like this, we can only pray.

>>53005354
>>53005362

But does this mean a genestealer who moves 9 inch has the same charge as a guardsmen who moves 5?

>>53005438
unless they show an updated Fleet of Foot rule, yes they are both the same

>>53005438

Yes in the sense that each can charge anywhere between 2"-12". In a more real to state of game sense not really because the 9" move now means the genestealer has a practical charge of 11"-21" where the guardsmen has a practical charge of 7"-17".

>>53005354
>If KO are any judge
KO? I'm drawing a blank here.

>>53005504

Sorry - Khardaron Overlords, the new dwarfs for AoS. They have the first 'transports' for that system.

>>53005438
Presumably yes.

But fucking OBVIOUSLY the genestealer is going to have 'fleet' or 'swiftstride' or whatever rule melee type attackers have that will give it either 1+ to charge or rerolls. + move through cover + rending claws and like 4 attacks each with high weapon skill and a 5++ dodge whereas the guardsman has literally nothing. MAYBE bayonets will give him 1+ strength if he's lucky.

People really think basic rules that have been in 40k forever like MtC and Fleet are going? seriously

>>53005539
>People really think basic rules that have been in 40k forever like vehicles not being monsters are going? seriously

>>53005438
how do we know Genestealers have 9 inch moves?

>>53005362
it's move or advance
with advance being just movement+some additional inches

I don't know if you can charge after advancing but it wasn't said we couldn't

>>53005438
No. The Genestealer has moved an extra 4 inches in the movement phase.

>>53005570
Beside the point, different movements have the same range of assault.

That is silly.

>>53005610

Not really because you have to factor in their movement from previous phases when looking at their total assault range.

>>53005570

We don't I was just talking hypotheticals.

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>>53005559
>tfw the second i hit reply i knew some autist would pounce on that last line like a fly to shit

You earned it buddy

>>53005536
>Khardaron Overlords
Ah, interesting. Personally I love the idea of assaulting out of any transport (at least those that didn't enter on from DS reserve that turn). It'd go a long ways to make footslogging melee men viable.
Nothing worse then rolling up to the enemy, disembarking... then waiting for a full turn outside of it because you opened the car door and now you're too tired to do anything else.

>>53005296
good. fuck super heavies

>>53005634
much appreciated

>>53003912
sorry, TS are literal manlet vs NuMarines

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>>53004525
Just gotta use more ablative grot armor, pic related

>>53003700
dubs have spoken.

>>53003927
no
body
knows

>>53005760
And yet it's the NuMarine that is wearing high heels.

>>53003927
no one has a truthful answer in either direction

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The camera didn't take the green as it actually is (close to DA green) but overall it's done but for shades and lights

What do you think guys?

>>53001743
What's wrong with pre-measuring?

>>53006561
Thin your paints

>>53006597
Nothing but judging distance is a skill you pick up pretty fast

>>53006561
I don't understand why everyone makes bolters so thick

is the pic reflected or is the ejection port actually towards the chest?

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>>53006796
100% based on this picture

Also, for what I've seen the thing is quite thick, but every artist makes them as they want, more or less

>>53006561
Comically large bolters never look good. If a normal human is gonna carry it, then scale it down so it looks like it could actually be usable.

>>53007067
Yeah but then it would not be a bolter

>>53006796

The ejection port is on the other side and I assume this one, which is represented on the model, is designed for if the armourer wanted too make it left-handed firing.

>>53007087
yes, it would

We don't yet know the order of phases. What would it mean if charging/assault was before the shooting phase? If units can only disengage during the shooting phase then that would at least garauntee another round of CC

>>53007169
They won't change that. At that point it's change for change sake

So. You can charge 12"+1" to the enemy. But you can only charge enemies within 12". This is so stupid.

>>53007436
Why would you even attempt that?

>>53007436
My guess is that they want to make it so they can give things bonuses to charge, while still needing you to be close enough to declare it in the first place.

>>53007436

No, you can charge 12 inch and a successful charge occurs if you land within 1 inch of your opponent. So if there's 2 mm from base to base it's still successful.

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>>53001237
>Thoughts?

>assault DOA
Sasuga geedubya kohai

>>53001671

This is why getting feedback from cancer like the tournament community was a bad idea. Those fucks have spent the whole edition avoiding Assault like the plague; why the fuck would they know anything about making it viable?

>>53004427

reminder that a 6+ to hit and a 3+ to wound is a 90% failure rate before saves

>>53008233
I miss 5th

>>53008233
Ha ha ha no.

Sure this is truck full of garbage but 6th was the whole lot

>>53008521
The annoying thing to me would be that you can charge fodder into a Unit with flamers to distract them, then charge the actual unit in afterwards.

With how threatening flamers are shaping up to be, unlimited wall of death will mean assaulting flamer squads will be fucking impossible for anything except vehicles/MCs and termies

I dont get the whining if assault should really be shit.

If you want assault play AoS. 40k should always be gun focused and melee should only be something like a desperate last resort.

>>53008777
If assault is meant to be bad they need to stop making specialized assault units.

>>53008777
>7th ed tau baby

>>53008552

TLOS aside, 5th was a good time.

>>53008823
Why not just play 4th then

>>53008777

Melee defines 40k's aesthetic. The chainsword is iconic for a reason.

>>53008821

nah, mainly IG and Thousand Sons.

>>53008845
I liked 5th's other changes better, such as the vehicle rules, running, etc. It's not like they were identical, anon.

>>53008859
What sort of Thousand Sons player are you that doesn't enjoy seeing a Biomancer rip through a horde of dudes all my himself in melee?

>>53008854

the bolter is more iconic.

>>53008591
Not if you make your first charge. Also flamers are 8",so unless i am mistaken, they cannot even perform overwatch if you attempt to charge outside of 8".

>>53008900

the one that doesnt like his rubrics getting smashed to dust in melee.

>>53008859
As a TS player, I'm ashamed of you

>>53008926
That's why you melee with your Exalted Sorcerers and regular Sorcerers.

Besides if you're doing it right you'll be using Ectomancy and the Astral Grimoire to make sure your opponent never reaches melee.

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>>53008777
>40k should always be gun focused

>>53004036
>Thousand Sons
>evil
Go back to fucking your dogs, Leman.

>>53008971
It's almost like guns are better than swords and if you charge into gunlines with a pointy stick you deserve to get shot to pieces.

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>>53008777

>>53009121
Exterminatus is a shooting attack, melee BTFO once again.

>>53009023
Your the same kind of person that removed machine gun from jet fightters in the 80s because lol we have guided missles why would we ever have to use any sort of skill

By your reasoning marines irl should not be trained in close combat at all

>>53009152
Not a shooting attack, im simply letting go of a big bomb

More of a bombing run than anything

>>53009189
Still counts as shooting.

>>53009023
Wow, it's almost like technology in the setting is designed to accomodate CC.

>>53009224
think of it as the bomb rocket punching its target

>>53009224
Bombing runs happen in the movement phase, they're not shooting attacks.

>>53002696
This is the opposite of true. With a set charge distance I can mesure once, know I can charge and make a decision. With a random value I need to figure out what needs to be rolled the decided if it's worth the risk witch takes much longer. Overwatch triggering on failed charges even compounds the issue.

This is even true defending from a charge. You can esily tell what will be out of rang to charge you if it's a set value.

>>53008823
>TLOS
Fuck. I know there was something missing from the stat line, a hieght/base size.

We're going to be stuck with tlos for years.

>>53002765
Don't be silly.
Fleshborers are CLEARLY some sort of rifle, it needs TWO HANDS to hold for termagants after all! The pistol is the spinefist. And nothing else. Maybe not the spinefist, after all it's an assault weapon, not a pistol weapon...

>>53009170
>By your reasoning marines irl should not be trained in close combat at all
No. By my reasoning marines irl should not charge into close combat to engage the enemy in melee except as some sort of disastrous last resort.

>>53009994
Go play infinity. I hate the game, but I would recommend it for you

>>53010086
>weebshit
No thank you.

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>>53001496
>What the fuck kind of melee unit can't put ten wounds on a t3 squad of fucking guardsmen without being a deathstar?
Orks boyz

>>53002998
It'd be nice if one of the melee-heavy armies wasn't also defined by its lack of vehicles

>>53010121
Then fuck off with you stupidity of trying to go realistic in 40k

What if consoldating into new combat came back?
Would it be enough to counter the shooting buffs?

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>>53001544
>blow away enemy units for the safety of tin cans
>bail out and carry on shooting
>get charged
>Where's my extra shooting phase?! I have done enough shooting yet!
>survive one round of combat and simply walk away from it, living on to shoot another day
Do you realize how hellish that is going to be for melee armies?

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>>53010086
Infinity dosen't even do that well since the main d20 mechanic dosen't work as intended simply due to the laws of mechanics

>>53010128
>S3, 4 on the charge WS4 3 attack base, 4 on the charge,

>Can't put ten wounds on guardsmen

That's not how it fucking works.

>>53010121
Isn't it Spanish?

>>53010282
No because you lose your charge attack first strike

>>53010121
I think his point is that Infinity falls apart and becomes a turret shooting game because range is king and there's no reason to move, ever, unless there's an objective or something you don't already have a good sightline on .

Which was the problem of 7th, except gunlines instead of turrets because of more miniatures.

Based on >>53009994, the issue with your argument is that no one has found a way to make a melee-/CQC-free wargame yet, because when range is king, there's no reason to advance.
FoW has this problem, for one. Parking lots along the back of the board because a squad of rifles is better than an assault (SMG) squad.

>>53010401
Who says you would? Its a whole new combat plus buffing assault in general cause holy fuck it needs it

>>53010475
Let me specify: no one has found a way to make an aggressive wargame without melee/CQC.

CBT got there at times, but they were using a nonsensical caliber system where larger = shorter range, not unlike the Demolisher cannon versus a simple autocannon.

>>53010355
>10 Ork boyz vs 12 guardsmen
>guardsmen shoot killing 1 boy
>guardsmen rapid fire killing 3 more boyz
>Orkz miss with their pistols and charge
>guardsmen kill 1 more Ork in overwatch
>reduced to half strength before the fight even starts
That IS how it works.

>>53010566
>still get 20 attacks at 3+ to hit
>still making them at S4
>still a chance to fail leadership

Stop simplifying this fucking shit.

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konflikt 47 has the best overwatch, hell turn based system

>>53010715
>20 attacks
>13.333 hits
>8.888 wounds
>5.926 fail saves
even a full squad of 10 could very reasonably fail to kill 10 guard since they would only expect to kill less than 12 on average

>>53010715
If you're going by 7th ed rules then the guardsmen strike first killing two more Orks.

In 8th we already know each unit has a flat to hit which we can safely assume won't be better than a 4+ for basic boyz.
Assuming that they still even get furious charge that's only 4 dead guardsmen, 1 more dead Ork and who knows how the leadership will work.

Close combat is fucked, why are you defending this broken system?
Even if they reach the guardsmen they don't just magically delete them, which is pathetic for a dedicated melee unit fighting a ranged unit in melee.
It's high risk, low reward and these new rules make it worse.

>>53010894
We haven't even seen rules for Melee combat yet

>>53010894
>who knows how the leadership will work
Like AoS, they already confirmed that. Tomorrow we get to see how melee plays out so maybe there's still hope.

>>53010894
>who knows how the leadership will work.
thats been revealed.
its now D6+casualties vs LD. if you roll over LD you lose that many extra minis as they break and run away.
Also by the look of things LD is generally going to be reduced, 8e space marines are only LD7. guardsmen are likely 5-6.

>>53004956
Seconded. There was absolutely no problem with this for so long, every other method was overly complicated or just shit.

Though at least with the removal of templates you can pack your guys in as tight as you want with no mechanical down side, that we know of yet.