The False Emperor's Treachery Knows No Bounds

>>52994932
There is no service without sacrifice. His Will be done.

>>52994932
Chaos is the only true answer.

>>52994932
How can you ignore The Greater Good?

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>>52994976
Another puling slave to the rotten corpse. Enjoy your miserable execution, lapdog.

>>52994998
Indeed it is, brother.

>>52995031
I wouldn't say we ignore it.

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Guiliman is the real heretic.

THE PUREST CHILDREN OF THE EMPEROR SHALL NOT ABIDE BY SUCH GRAVE HERESY

IT IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE'VE NEEDED TO SPILL FELLOW SPACE MARINE BLOOD TO REMAIN LOYAL TO OUR EMPEROR!

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>>52994932
Yes that's nice and all but you all are still a bunch of faggots so I think I'll be staying over here.

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>>52995152
>Implying the dead can switch sides.

>>52994932
Only when you can bring Sanguinius back to life

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>>52994932
And here is the heretic...

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>>52995170
>Implying I didn't rip you and your 'Legion' a new asshole despite you having the advantage

The only reason Pert's alive is because Guilliman scared him off.

Also Vulkan confirmed Dorn to still be alive.

>>52995226
>Implying the IF weren't on the edge of extinction before the Ultras showed up
>Implying that the IF did not literally go extinct at the hands of Orks

>>52994932
I'm just gonna go find some backwater system and never leave. I'll make my own, 1-system empire and not have to deal with stupid managers.

Hell, even if I were to join Chaos I'd just pull a Hashut. Work for daemon prince and then just fuck off and find some malleable race to worship me without question so I don't have to be completely dependent on the Chaos Gods.

>>52995468
>IF were fully intent on annihilating IW along with themselves, and were very much on track to do so despite massive disadvantages
>Meanwhile it takes a WAAAGH!!! the likes of which have never been seen before or after, that stretched all the way to piercing Terra, to put down the weakened Fists in a surprise attack.

>>52995555
>Guilliman has to step in just to prevent the IF from being totally annihilated
>Perturabo sacrifices enough of their gene-seed to get elevated to daemonhood
>"T-The Fists were t-totally winning guys."

>>52995731
I really don't get IF fans who try to paint the Iron Cage as a victory, or close-to-victory.

It was WRITTEN as a big smack-down to the Fists, and the great revenge of the Iron Warriors. If you're gonna be mad at the Iron Cage, then be mad how the actual Fists would be: mad that it was their failure, and pissed at the IWs for pulling that shit. Don't just "revise" it like you meant to do that, for no reason at all.

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>>52995773
>and the great revenge of the Iron Warriors
For what? Pert being an oversensitive douchebag who took an off-hand statement to heart despite it being a simple statement? And then still not actually proving that statement wrong, as he throws the biggest hissy fit in the entirety of 40k?

The Iron Cage was stupid because it was virtually unjustified and was nothing other than Perturabo being a gigantic baby.

>>52995773
>mad that it was their failure
If it was their failure, they'd have all been dead.

Whole thing about the cage is neither side can really claim it as a victory, as it was A: bloody fighting for the sake of fighting and B: cut short when the ultramarines broke up the stalemate. Dorn didn't get to kill Pert, and Pert didn't get to kill Dorn.

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>>52994932
lol

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>>52994932
Counter point, your path has turned you into literal demons.

>>52995888
I didn't say it was justified, I just said it was revenge. Pert had an insane inferiority complex. The Iron Cage was his metaphorical school shooting.

>>52995950
I'd still count massive losses from the Fists, to the point of using their fallen comrades as cover, as a "loss". Most battles, real or fictional, don't end with one side being killed to a man, unless you're the PDF in a 40k backstory.

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>>52995152
Hello, brother! It has been far too long since I've seen you, and I would like to set aside our differences for the good of humanity. I even have a gift for you, if you would accept it.

>>52996020
Only for the lucky Chaos followers.

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>>52997617
"Claim that cupcake for the primarch brothers!"

>>52997681
I think it would be a good idea to gift this to the Blood Ravens before they take it as a 'gift'.

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>>52997737

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>>52997681
>A fine addition to my collection.jpg

>>52997973
>A HAT!

>>52997819
Damnable magpies.

>>52994932
>Playing Chaos Marinelets
LMAO

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>>52994932
"See, what you degenerate Chaos worshippers will never understand is, that we do not fight for personal gain, or the admiration of some foul warp-spawned creatures that would kill us in an instant if they wished to do so. We fight for the survival of mankind. We endure the horrors the galaxy throws at us. And while we fought against unfathomable horrors and xenos bent on the destruction of mankind, you just ran away.
You fled responsibility, you fled duty and you betrayed your kin. You broke your oaths to the Emperor and left nothing but destruction in your wake. You talk about courage, honour and glory, yet the only thing I can see in you is treason.
We've destroyed your works before, and we will do it again, traitor."

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>>53000986
"So said the slave to the free man."

>>53001527
>No you !

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>being a loyal boot lick

Chaos ftw

>>53001869
At least the boot I lick is clean. You'll never get the taste of Warp Dogshit off your tongue now.

I dunno what you expected 'ere ya spikey git.

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>>53000986
" It seems you are misunderstanding what the Primordial Truth means. Let me enlighten you; Chaos Undivided is more than a pantheon a philosophy, it is the Eightfold Path, it is the Truth behind the curtain and the sin of knowledge, the revelation and the secret, it is many things but not a religion as we understand it. Chaos is freedom, ambition, power and glory, it is damnation but also reward, it is the moment when you break your chains, when you dispose of your humanity and when you embrace something so unfathomable that dives you insane but also ecstatic with the knowledge that your destiny is in your OWN hands.

When an enlightened one exults For Chaos! across the din of the battlefield he evokes this truth, he utters in words what his eye have seen and what his soul has felt when he opened his mind to the truth for the first time. When marching under the banner of Primordial Truth the warrior of Chaos does not favor a Exalted Power in particular way, neither he favors them all, but he is the herald of the Truth, the Truth of which destiny lies beyond the skein, the Truth that follows death, the Truth that power and ambition are rewarded, the Truth where you as an individual can become a literal god, an immortal, a being of such utter power only if you will it, only if you dare it.

>>53001527
>I'm literally not allowed to stop worshipping some super-demon from hyperhell or else he will eat my soul and my torture will be eternal = I voluntarily chose to become a better man and devote my life to defending humanity against the horrors some assholes decided to unleash into the galaxy 10,000 years ago, so the human race will not go extinct
Wew lad, Chaos must be one hell of a drug.

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>>53001996
Chaos Undivided is not a religion; it is a philosophy, a philosophy of the self interest, of tangible power and the shattering dread of the ultimate Truth. This philosophy teaches a human that if he is ambitious enough he would be rewarded, it teaches him that if he kills with the name of the True Gods on his lips he would catch their eye and receive their boon, it teaches him that one day he can become a demigod, a mortal no more, and all this if he only wills it and dares it.
The Primordial Truth is also the philosophy of the metaphysical, where reality and dogma shatter, a philosophy that teaches its followers that the laws of physic do not exist, that any laws are artificial, that dogma and ad a closed mind lead your soul to be shattered by the dreaded dream predators. Chaos Undivided is a philosophy that teaches you that you have a soul, teaches you that with your dreams you shape the universe and it teaches you that nothing is impossible, everything can be done if only one dreams it.

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>>53002015
That is why a chosen one bears proudly the Star of Chaos even if he pledged his allegiance to only a variant of this philosophy, perhaps to Nurgle's teachings, it is because once you pass over the skein of reality and you see the vast landscapes of infinite possibilities nothing can ever be the same and everything becomes possible, all that is required is a simple dream."

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>tfw you appreciate this thread because you prefer your food doesn't touch on the plate

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>Stubborn noises

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>>53002272
>That one time a Zoanthrope ate an entire Craftworld because they needed to give the 'Nids another named character.

>>53002009
It's a quote from DC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHhS5IkRR0
>dat top tier banter

>>53001527
>>53005779
>They have to stole lines from fifhty xenos.
Truly the servants of Chaos are a sorry lot.

>>53002009
>Worshipping a broken corpse who just sits on his throne and watches while the true gods fuck his Imperium

Imperialfags are truly the greatest cucks.

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>>53002464
Sorry. You really shouldn't just leave your snacks out, though.

Hey, at least we're a lot less judgy and moralistic than some of these other folks.

>>53006136
>Hey, at least we're a lot less judgy and moralistic than some of these other folks.

True, true. Gotta appreciate that. Unfortunately Nid fans always have to compete with Chaos fans for "cause of apocalypse" spot.

>>53006197
hey nids just do what they do. if chaos kills the galaxy we'll just move to another one

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The emperium is a shit fest and to be part of chaos is to be a slave to to whims of dark gods. Why do either?

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>>52995031

>>53006403
I thoroughly recommend moving to Ultramar, warm beds, three square meals a day and only the occasional apocalypse involving bio-monsters from beyond the galactic rim

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>>52995031
This.
I'm going to T'au, fuck this half of the galaxy.

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>>52994932
Do you think we care?

There was never a place for us amongst the stars: Our home rests firmly among the graves.

Our hands bathe in the blood of the faithful, our bodies clad in midnight, and our weapons are made from unanswered prayers. We are a terror, a horror, a ghast amongst the galaxy. We feed on fear, and live only to mortify the galaxy.

But why? It is not to keep a feeble populace in line. It is not to pay homage to any gods.

We murder for ourselves. Our existence is a cruel joke against the universe itself, a unwanted pack of monsters, whose own abominable father denied.

We exist as a testament, as a legacy of indescrimenate cruelty and wanton hate.

We bring dark justice; and in our void-filed eyes, all are guilty.

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>>53006403

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>>52995523
True Chaosbros don't stop at Daemon Princehood.

Find yoself some vassals. Fuck worshippin' the Big Four. You da boss now.

Also: get cucked, Belakor.

>>53006910
>"Blah blah blah we're a bunch of edgy chickenshits who run away screaming from any actual fight."

Chaos gets your souls anyway.

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>>53007927
Chaos can't get your souls if you don't die, faglord.

>>53001899
>wanting to be mud-free in your 8th edition art

Gross dude.

>>53008270
>This is what Nightcucks actually believe.

Tell me, how does it feel to have been sired by Justin Trudeau in space?

>"If you kill me and destroy my Legion, I win."

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>implying chaos holds a candle to the techno-sorcery of the necrontyr
Reminder that Marduk was legitimately scared by and fled from a necron lord in Dark Apostle.

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>>52994932
"I DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT DO YOU OFFER IN RETURN.
EMPEROR BRINGS BITCHES. YOUR SLAANESH BRINGS THINGS THAT WILL TRY TO FUCK MY EXHAUST PIPES."

>>53008507
To be perfectly fair Marduk is was and always will be a cowardly little bitch.

Warmonger was still the most bro tier dread.

>>53008621
I'm only on chapter three of Dark Disciple, but Marduk seemed more conniving than cowardly in the first book.

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>>53001527
>Free man
>Has to worship unfathomable cosmic horrors that care not for your existence, and are just as likely to devour and do terrible things to your soul as they are any other race
>"free man"

Chaos is the ultimate form of delusion.

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>>53009518
You forgot that the gods are mostly worshiped by action, and siding with a certain god is often enough just doing the same thing a chapter had been doing before.

The Carcharodons or Flesh Tearers, for example, would rip and tear regardless of whether they're loyalist or free. The only difference is if they're being rewarded by a living god or not.

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>>53008507

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>>53009574
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJiUfnIzbVM

>>52995216
Americamarines

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>>53001527
>>53001996
>>53002015
>>53002060
>Retards are seriously defending being spineless cowards who defected to brain-dead schozophreniacs
Really? This is freedom? Being a foolish weakling falling for a slave master's deceitful promises of freedom and power, little realizing the tightening leash upon your throat? At least with the Emperor, you know what your fighting for something of worth.

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>>53010191
>something of worth

When the Emperor was alive, it was something of worth. You've got to remember that most "traitors" are not from the Heresy era, as indeed, most Space Marines are not. They're more recent factions that got disillusioned or outright attacked by the rest of the Imperium.

The supposed "Loyalists" however, are simply propping up the regime of a corpse, already rotted out and writhing with the machinations of petty nobles and false worshipers exploiting the Emperor's dream for their own gain.

Let it all come crashing down.

>>53010346
I'd be happy to have crash down, if that didn't also entail the damnation of humanity. Like, literal damnation. Orks and Eldar and Necrons, etc - they're bad, but they're conventionally fightable. Chaos will literally fuck your soul.

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>>53010346
You speak the truth, or at least some of it. Yes, it isn't the Imperium the Emperor dreamed of. It is not a monument to Humanity's triumphs, our power, or His dream of a future set forth for us. No, what it is instead is a monument to humanity's true nature, the one thing all of us feel with every fiber of our being, the one universal instinct. Survival, no matter the cost. It isn't much, but it's all we have. So go, go to your Dark Gods and all their so-called "gifts" like lambs to the slaughter, I will stay and fight tooth and claw for what we have left. I will fight to my dieing breath, until the final bitter end. Because so long as we fight, there is hope for His dream to come to pass.

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>>53006092
>broken Corpse
>chaos ''''''''''gods'''''''''' STILL scared shitless of him
>still can't overpower him
>Imperium still supreme despite being at it's lowest point
Chaoscuck self-delusion never ceases to amuse me.

>>53006504
At least enjoy your balls before you're castrated and treated as a 3rd class citizen in their Orwellian Empire

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>>53000608

do you actually think there are more of your lab-grown oversized buffoons than there are of mine?

>>53010958
>He doesn't realize the Chaos Gods view the Imperium as a toy
>He doesn't know Chaos literally cannot be harmed in even the slightest way

>>53011463
>believing Carnac

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>>53011463
>he actually believes this drivel
>w-w-we're j-j-just having fun
>T-T-The Emperor wasn't about to push our shit in or anything
>W-W-We're calling him The Anathema for shits and giggles, not b-because we're scared or anything

>>53011463
>Chaos cannot be harmed in even the slightest way

Yaaawwwn.

Must be real fun for your opponent whenever you lose and go "yeah, well I win anyways".

>>53011557
>"T-The Emperor was totally a-about to push the Gods' shit in guys."
>"That's w-why he's rotting on a gilded toilet while the gods are more powerful than ever even when fighting each other 99 times out of 100."

Impcucks please.

How exactly does the whole "false emperor" thing work when the guy who was the first leader of all the CSM was the emprah's son? Clearly he was real.

>>53011679
>chaos
>more powerful

Explain where all the Havoc launchers went.

>>53011716
In the eyes of the heretics, Horus is the true emperor because he declared himself as such annointed by the Chaos Gods.

>>53011716
He's a corpse. How can a corpse rule as an Emperor?

>>53011716
"False Emperor" as in they believe the Big E is dead. Like proper "we're just using his psychic brain as wetware" dead. No Emperor.

The Imperials believe that the Big E is crippled in the Materium but is a god in the Immaterium. They believe he gathers the souls of the faithful to him and grants blessings to his heroes.

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>>53011740

You don't get to be emperor just because you say you are, especially if you fail to dethrone the current emperor. That's not how it works. Pic related, tried the same shit.

>>53011758

Very hands-off.

>>53011762

I hold to the idea that if you just kill the Emprah's physical body at this point, his soul will be free to all himself to be reborn. Like when God was trapped in the comatose man in Dogma.

>>53011679
>muh gods had to get their shit together and subtly undermine him because they dared not actually face him
>had to possess his son to stand a chance
>still got rekt the second he got serious
>rotting corpse is still fighting all of them off at the same time
>calls anyone a cuck when the reward he hopes for is losing his soul and free will and getting turned into a puppet of his ''gods'' whims
lmao @ ur life

>>52994932
I wish the WB were cooler to regular mortals that joined their cause.

>>53011973
Ironically the Thousand Sons turned out to be the most-bro tier group, despite Tzeentch probably having max dickery points. Even their cultists don't have to worry about "oh we're not TECHNICALLY abusing you because we view this as a good thing" like with Nurgle or Slaanesh. Tzeentch cultists just either read all day (if a psyker) or bring books to the psykers. Shit only gets really bad when Tzeentch decides to gift some mutations, and most of the TS hate Tzeentch as it is.

>>53012237
Source? Sounds fucking cool. Always wanted not shithead chaos marines.

>>53011815
>Emps systemically and pointlessly shat all over his sons, setting the stage for the rebellion
>Was out maneuvered every step of the way by the gods
>Kept out of the war until the last second by an endless tide of daemons


>Impcucks get no reward at all but a pointless death
>Chaos grants freedom to do as you want without holding back
>Chaos is the only power strong enough to repels the Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks. Only through Chaos can humanity avoid the Eldar's fate.

How can the Imperium even compete?

>>53012340
>Emperor literally shown to collect the souls of the faithfull
>>freedom to do what you want
>literally lose your soul and become a puppet that merely thinks it has free will while everything it does, thinks and dreams is the whim of it's god(s)
By not being beyond cucked?
>muh Truth
>the final reward is the ultimate self-deception, that you still have free will and are a master of your own destiny
In DC comics, Martians have a great way of defining life. Life is free will. If you exist only to serve the whims of another being, with no thought or desire of your own, you cannot be truly called alive. So, your final reward is losing your soul and your life, all that you are, and becoming a puppet who may or may not see the strings. Hell, worst case scenario, even your consciousness gets replaced by an exact copy and you cease to exist all together. Your ''gods'' got you cucked, boy.

>>53012315
Thousand Sons were the most humane of the Legions, because they knew what it was like to be persecuted and cast out. So, they developed a very close bond with each other and the populace of Prospero (and Magnus himself, who viewed them as his actual sons more then any other Primarch did his Legion to the point that he named them ''My Thousand Sons''). That carried over after they got dicked over by everyone, so they're still incredibly compassionate to outcasts (psykers, mutants etc) and treat them basically like family.

>>53012237
Alpha legion can be pretty great to. Their human agents can be the same rank as the marines and talk to them as equals.

>>53012464
>Emperor collects the souls of the faithful
>Daemons regularly shown to consume billions of Imperial souls without issue
Pick one.

>Emperor demands you do everything he says without question, complaint, or reward
>Liberally expends billions of lives in service of a gigantic lie, refuses to confide the truth even to his own sons
>Current Imperium is the cruelest and most bloody-minded regime imaginable
>Thinking those who serve it are anything but the most servile bootlickers.
LMAO

>>53012529
>>53012567
See this shits really fucking cool. Where do I read about shit like this? I've got a copy of Prospero burns I've never read.

>>53012853

sorry it's not true

mortals of all stripes are no more than chattel to 1ksons, like most SM (traitor or loyalist)

examples of actual compassionate SM: Sallies, SW, Ultras

>>53012585
>>Daemons regularly shown to consume billions of Imperial souls without issue
Like where? Your headcannon? Emperor is literally shown to be able to call the souls of the faithful to Himself. The Warp still functions on belief an emotion, and quadrillions of humans believe that you go to The Emperor when you die.
>>Emperor demands you do everything he says without question, complaint, or reward
You mean kinda like everything He did He did for absolutely no personal gain and only to help Mankind? Traitorfags love to forget that little detail, that The Emperor is literally the most selfless character in the setting.
>>Liberally expends billions of lives in service of a gigantic lie, refuses to confide the truth even to his own sons
Because knowledge of Chaos corrupts, thus making it stronger.
>>Current Imperium is the cruelest and most bloody-minded regime imaginable
What Chaos would create is unimaginably worse.
>>Thinking those who serve it are anything but the most servile bootlickers
>Selfish arrogant traitor scum so steeped in seeking personal gain that he lost all concept of sacrifice for the good of the whole and unity
>hasn't even tried to address the REAL Truth that even Lorgar doesn't dare admit to himself, that Chaos has deceived all of them and there is no glory or ascension, only slavery and damnation
Loving Every Laff

>>53013059
Yea, they totally didn't save the remnants of the population of Prospero and their psykers serfs aren't amazingly well treated or anything.

>>53013081

i know you think you are being sarcastic but you are just being accurate

>>53013081
Source? Not him, I think that dudes talking out of his ass. Even the Night Lords arent complete shit to their serfs.

>>53012853
A lot of this came out with the latest "Traitor Legions" codex, that coincided with all those Thousand Sons models being released.

We got insight into things like the different Sorcerer Covens, the Tzaangors, the Acolytes, and the relations between Magnus and all his sons.

Some of the Sons went full "dark wizard" dickbag and bowed down to Tzeentch, while most (Ahriman first among them) generally take a hardline "ends justify means" view. A large portion of the Sons hate Tzeentch and want to be free of his omnipotence and have the magic for themselves. But their morals are still pretty recognizable under some of the more hardcore madness and desperation, unlike Nurgle "looking like the most hideous thing ever is fine because I'm technically nice", or Slaanesh "pain is pleasure so let this daemonette finger your urethra".

Downside is still all the mutations due to living around Tzeentch stuff, and the fact that although magic is viewed as greater than might, the marines still tend to handle energy spikes better than mortal psykers. Certain Alpha Legion warbands that stuck close to the "Hydra Dominatus" plan come in close second for least-dickish Chaos Marines.

>>53013162
Cool. Going to check the 40k gen for a link to download this and go through it.

>>53013141
Magnus teleported the remaining population of Prospero when he made the pact with Tzeentch. They also kept their PDF around.

>>53013162

Black Legion by ADB is told from the perspective of 1ksons sorcerer lord called Khayon

Khayon is a relatively cool dude as far as losers sulking in the Eye go but the mortals serving him are just slaves that he barely notices

like, he doesn't go out of his way to torture them or anything; he just views them with the casual contempt of a demigod

meanwhile he refers to his axe as if it were a person

>>53013201

to where? Sortiarius?

"welcome to hell guys"

>>53013271
''Welcome to a part of hell that is completely under my control and will be made to accommodate you as best as possible as opposed to dying and going to the part where daemons nom your soul''

>>53013255
>abandoned his father and brothers to work for Abaddon
Yup, perfect example of your average 1k son right there. Here's a hint: if he was arrogant/cold enough to abandon all his brothers after all they've been through and the bond they shared just to forward his position/obtain power/advance his plans, he's gonna be a bit more of a dick in general.

>>53013255
Again, "nicest of the Chaos Space Marines" isn't exactly a great achievement in humanitarianism, but it's better than nothing. Especially in the case of the Thousand Sons, since you can find sex, disease, and war anywhere, but Tzeentch is literally the fucking top dog in terms of magic. I'm not even a big Tzeentch fan and I'll concede that in crunch he's fucking unstoppable in the psychic phase, and in lore he's always counted (often as #1) in the top 5 of psychic/magic powers.

>>53013349
oooorrrrrrr you all mutate into gross bird things

>>53013399

er sounds like you are describing every 1kson who is not a trashcan full of dust

>>53013162
Least assholish (by normal, non-Nurgle standards) CSM tend to be:

>Thousand Sons
Any of the more orthodox warbands who are more devoted to Magnus than Tzeentch. They tend to be more organized, love pariahs, and are at least dismissive of non-psykers. Full Tzeentch worshippers can't claim as much moral high ground.

>Alpha Legion
Again, the more orthodox sects that hold to Alpharius' unified vision (whatever the fuck that really was) and treat their mortal spies and servants as valuable parts of the whole.

>Night Lords
Some of them. I've heard Talos is apparently nice to his slaves/serfs.

>Blood Gorgons
A more minor warband who had the defining characteristic of just being insane anarchists, but valuing human freedom as much as their own.

Again, none of these are exactly Nobel Peace Prize winners, but they aint World Eaters.

>>53013456
Picked the lesser of two evils.

>>53011463
>Chaosfags are 11 year children who go "I have a super duper eldritch power, I win"

>>53013431
>>53013517

nicest warpsucker is a pretty pathetic title

why do fa/tg/uys need villains to be secret heroes? must be part of the "no one understand my secret nobility" fantasy

>>53013557

no anon, having your body twisted into a mockery for the amusement to salve the conscience of a manbaby cyclops is not better than death

>>53013636
But it IS better then dying and then becoming a toy of warp-things.

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>>53012340
>Chaos is the only power strong enough to repels the Tyranids,
>A full demon incursion lead by four greater demons of each god against nids gets destroyed
>Iron Warrior fortress touted as being untakeable destroyed by the nids in just ten days

>>53013517
Alpha Legion treat mortal allies as "valuable assets"? you mean like they clean their bolters?

was thinking of pinting some alpha legion csm for SWA because they have a cool color scheme but my god the alpha legion fans are fucking insufferable

>>53013612
Its not about villians being heros. Its about the setting being shades of grey instead of black and white. Sometimes chaos is alright, sometimes the emperium suck. Sometimes its the opposite.

>>53013612
The Son's entire shtick is that they were THE nicest legion and got dicked over super hard.

>all these nidfags trying to justify their relevance to the setting

I honestly feel sorry for them.

>>53013676
No, like they treat their spies and other operators as equals to them.

>>53013652
Can you name those events, i'm interested.

>>53013692
>literally just one dude
>instead of replying to him directly you'd rather make a passive aggressive post like this like a little bitch
how embarrassing

>>53013698
>http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fall_of_Shadowbrink

>http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forgefane

>>53013677

there is only black

>>53013695

hahaohwow.jpg

>>53013679

that is what magnus posted on tumblr; in reality they are so arrogant as to actually believe they are the nice guys who got dicked

>>53013739
Are you ok?
>>53013725
>casual IW fortress world just chilling in Imperial territory

>>53013725
Thanks anon, much appreciated.

>>53013739
>valued knowledge and enlightenment
>were incredibly humane and compassionate
>accepted outcasts and pariahs
>Primarch so loyal he was ready to die rather then kill his brother

>>53013676
Alpha legions whole thing is infiltration, espionage and asymmetric warfare. Their tactics often rely on regular humans fir success. As such humans are held in high regard. A normal human can be an Alpha Legionare as much as a marine.

>>52994932
Quiet Lionel or russ will return and kick your teeth down your throat

>>53013739
>there is only black
You are the cancer ruining 40k.

>>53013739
I feel like we're kind of swinging the other direction now. Normally it's the Chaosfags shitting all over any spark of decency that the Imperium shows, but c'mon.

I, at the least, wasn't trying to argue that Chaos are the good guys. That's why I kept putting "not good in the moral relativism way Nurglites and Slaaneshis try to spin it" disclaimers with my posts. All I'm arguing is that not all Chaos warbands are equally horrible, and some are more or less horrible in different ways. Compared to life on some of the more horrible worlds in the Imperium, being a member of some of the nicer Chaos warbands could easily be seen as preferable. And some Chaos champions could easily be seen as anti-heroes or anti-villains, like Ahriman or, hell, even Kharn before he completely broke and dropped off the deep end.

>>53013812
>As such humans are held in high regard
A better way to phrase this would be "A 7+ foot super soldier isn't great at sneaking into the Planetary Governor's mansion to plan a mcguffin"

There's always going to be the business-question of whether Alpharius cares about his human agents, or if he simply pretends to care to make them work harder. Plus the associated question of whether external action outweighs the intent.

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>>52994932
Remember that time a bunch of Orks marched into the Warp and gave each and every Chaos God the middle finger before a Daemon Prince took him down, but not before the Warboss punched him in the balls?

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>>53013832
>Lion ''LOYALTY IS IT'S OWN REWARD'' El'Johnson
>traitor
>dogfucker still so shook he has to mention him out of nowhere
Kek

>>53013834
no anon your faggoty insistence on "shades of gray" is the cancer ruining everything in pop culture

>>53013808
>pri arch so loyal he disobeyed direct order from emperor rendered as decree of council attnded by brothers because he thought he knew better than the emperor

loyalty and arrogance are not synonyms

>>53013839
Eh, CSM as anti-heroes can work, but only in moderation, and a lot better if they don't actually worship the Chaos gods.
"We rebelled because we were treated like scum" is a better justification for turning traitor than "I just wanted to have super-cocaine-fueled orgies while making everyone around me suffer".

>>53013931
Wait... what?

I mean, it's 40k. There're certainly not going to be shades of white. And there are certainly shades of black in 40k. But I don't see why preferring black-and-grey or grey-and-grey over black-and-black is that bad. 40k with no levity or glimmers gets pretty fucking boring after a while.

>>53013931
Insisting not everything in 40k is completly horrible is somehow ruining all of pop culture. Nice logic.

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All this talk of freedom Only the sons of chogoris know true freedom. True freedom is found in the kiss of the wind and swing of the righteous blade. The khan taught us true freedom and no priest preaching the creed of our emperor nor slave to the dark gods shall take it away. FOR THE KHAN AND THE EMPEROR

>>53013839

magnus is the classic example - he really believed he was as noble and wonderful as his fandom

turns out his colassal arrogance ruined everything he claimed to love - oh but wait let's just blame that on russ or horus or the emperor

the tragedy of the 1ksosn isn't that "nice guys finish last" - it's that the legion that supposedly cherished wisdom most were so totally blind

>>53014035
This is why I love White Scars.

"I don't really agree with all this tyrannical shit, father."
>"Then go fuck off and kill those aliens you hate and you don't have to look at any of it."
"Alright."

>"Hey Khan, we know you like Magnus and aren't super in with the Big E. Wanna try this Chaos shit?"
"What is it?"
>"Well it turns you into an embodiment of selfishness and damns your soul, but you get sweet spike-armor and magic."
"Yeah, I'm gonna pass on that too, thanks."

>>53013973

it's black on black

IRL horrible atrocities are justified by made up threats but in 40k those threats are all real ... does not make the atrocities any "grayer" - nor are the threats that justify them any "grayer" for being real in this setting

as for levity, that's where da boyz come in - the joke being, far from being crushed by the horror of endless violence, they live for it

>>53013990

>insisting I implied causal connection between 40k and pop culture

nice illiteracy

>>53014122
The white scars literally do not give a single fuck. They are literally only in it for the fun until the khan gets back. Not the perverse khorne fun or slaanesh fun. They're little the fun marines embodied

>>53014168
Literally*

>>53014123
I think we just kind of have different ideas of what constitutes gray.

Either way, there are still completely fine people within the setting. Cain and Gaunt are certainly mid to light grey, and do classically heroic things. Some of the Primarchs were decent people who ran their legions humanely. The Eldar aren't always pricks. Even Chaos has a few members who aren't always pricks.

If the whole setting was truly pitch black with just the Orks for comedy, I don't think it would have nearly as much depth.

>"We rebelled because we were treated like scum" is a better justification for turning traitor than "I just wanted to have super-cocaine-fueled orgies while making everyone around me suffer"

the former is just the wallpaper glued over the latter

at least word bearers, world eaters, emp children can admit what they are

>>53014185
Yeah, but not every renegade chapter does the orgies and shit. Some get drawn into it, but not all of them. There are blood-orgy chapters who try to justify their actions, and those who just do it for shits and giggles. And there are renegade chapters who don't do any of that and can actually use the "treated like scum" justification.

>>53014184

nothing wrong with average joe type characters being morally reasonable-ish

what strains credibility is when they exhibit attitudes that may endear them to IRL readers but make no sense for their own backgrounds (such as tolerance for xenos)

>>53014222

CSM are like nerds - fucking dice chuckers looking down on LARPers ... forgetting that we're all nerds

this came up in ADB's NL books, where Talos had contempt for brothers who embraced chaos ... I am glad ADB showed this hypocrisy among traitors, the bleak reality of shattered values amounting to nothing more than rationalized personal biases

>>53014145
>"shades of gray" is the cancer ruining everything in pop culture
You were the one who brought up all of pop culture when I was just talking about 40k.

>>53014297

yes because your "needs more gray" recipe for success is imported from mainstream where it has already ruined other pop culture

>>53014346
Not the other anon. I was just confused because I don't really get how the two relate.

You say grey morality is ruining both mainstream culture and 40k. But you also say you like 40k to be black-on-black morality.

But then what is mainsteam culture? Most mainstream culture is not black-on-black. Black-on-white maybe.

So would you be fine with white morality in 40k? You just don't like grey?

It just seems weird because there's not much in "mainstream" culture that's like 40k.

>>53014346
No its just from 40k because 40k isn't a complete crapsack universe.
Mainstream pop culture isn't shades if grey, most of it is pretty black and white.

>>53014400
>>53014406
I think anon meant shades of grey in the way stuff like Game of Thrones does it. I tried killing a kid because he saw me fucking my sister? It's okay, because of my tragic backstory and because I'm not that much a dick later on.
What, that child I slaughtered because he pretended to be a knight, like all children do? Yeah, that's totally gonna be okay after you know the tragic tale of how my brother once burned my face.
But no. None of this makes it okay.

>>53014346
What has it ruined? Please, I'm not that anon but what has moral complexity ruined? If you want Saturday morning cartoon super villain+Hitler black then that's your beer but don't claim that all media needs that level of shallow evil. Most media is significantly made better by having villains that are deeper than just wanting tomurder everyone/thing. Alternatively, pure white is also a problem if it's done too much. Grey is preferable in damn near every circumstance because real people are rarely pure black or white. They are shades of grey.

>>53014400

in the past, fantasy type shows were largely black/white and still managed to tell engaging stories

in the last 20 years or so, mainstream culture accepted this was not sufficiently "complex" or "interesting"

see e.g., '78 BSG versus '04 BSG

40k was never black/white - just black/black ... no good guys - just a relentlessly brutal imperium preserving its hateful existence at any cost against endless terror

over time, some good guys stuff crept in: SW stand against Inq after Armageddon I, for example - OK fine, that's not so bad - SW can be rebels, sure

but trying to make CSM into morally reasonable or even morally relatable characters is feckin sttopid and by no coincidence it is part of 40k being more widely known thanks to HH novels

>>53014578
>anyone besides exisitng fans reading the steaming pile of shit that is the HH series

Warhammer is known because of the videogames. Full stop.

>>53014492

anon bad actors can be psychologically complex without having partially redeeming motives

your assumption otherwise is exactly what has been ruined by "gray is better" dogmatics

>>53014612

>existing fanbase large enough to convince all national chain booksellers to keep constant stock of HH books

oh anon

>>53014578
Read the Honsou iron warrior novels, CSM can be irredeemable assholes and still have you wanting them to win. And fuck you there is nothing more 40k then a good guy turning in to bad guy because the imperium/emperor/Inquisition sucked.

>>53014462
>>53014578

Just because a character has relateable aspects doesn't mean you have to root for them. It just serves to make them more interesting or tragic villains.

If the dark wizard killed all those people because he was getting revenge for their kingdom killing his daughter, that doesn't justify his actions, but it gives them some kind of reason for existing beyond just "it's dark". If anything, it can make him a more disturbing villain, because how many people out there might do the same in the name of someone they loved?

I agree that it's annoying when people take a "Chaos is actually good" or "the Imperium did nothing wrong" stances. But just having everything be dark for the sake of darkness is boring. At least in my opinion. I didn't see ANY of the appeal behind Warhammer until I found my way to 1d4chan and saw all the humor, and the custom chapters, and all the redeeming and complex bits under the veneer of demon-knights fighting nazi-troopers.

>>53014744

honsou is actually an example I would use of black/black morality - good 40k writing

>>53014811

seems we would agree in the big picture, although "dark for the sake of darkness" is a big part of what is strong (and fundamental) about 40k

>>53014899
the first Iron warriors novel is black vs grey, with the iron warriors vs the good guy guard, who are being poisoned by the Imperium to keep a secret that would be devastating if it got out. I'd say its a pretty good example of a grey area in a 40k novel.

>All this talk about the best CSM
We all know the nicest guy is Kharn.

>>53014899
See, I'm just having trouble understanding what's defined as grey in your assessment though. It seems any reprehensible act makes the slider go full black, when I would argue that brings it into grey territory.

If the Imperium were full black, there would be NO Cains or Gaunts or Logan Grimnars or Salamanders. The whole Imperium would just be the High Lords and Commissars 24/7.
If Chaos was full black there would be no reason at all for any of the treachery. The 1k Sons wouldn't need a sob story, they would've just said "we turned to Chaos because we wanted to" and reveled in it. Everyone would be the Word Bearers or the World Eaters. You wouldn't have Ahrimans, or Argel Tals.

I think this is just a difference of how we individually define "black" and "grey" in a setting.

>>53014947

sure the vast sea of dupes fighting for the corpse god are morally neutral, a big population that includes eagle scouts as well as pedos as well as egale scouts who are pedos

but they work for the spase reich

black/black

>>53014996

in addition to see

>>53015003

I can also say, with regard to magnus and the 1ksons, their sob story is a mask they wear to look in the mirror - it's like an abuser telling themselves their victim deserves it; the sobs story is not true, it's just the particular form of evil rooted in boundless self-deception

>>53015003
Yeah, I guess this is just a case of differing definitions.

If Nazis ally with Paladins to defeat Satan, then I view that as grey v black. The fact that one faction has Nazis doesn't instantly taint that whole side black for me. I view it as grey because there are also good people involved who may have no other choice but to ally with shitheads against greater shitheads.

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The fluff for my new Alpha Legion force is going to be some 60-80 marines riding around in a Hellbringer Light Cruiser, trying to inflict hit and run attacks and act like pirates. They hit anywhere vulnerable, from space ports to lone freights, to worlds with low populations, loading up on weapons, slaves (crew*), food, fuel, or things to trade, whilst hiring themselves out as mercenaries to planetary governors, other Chaos warbands, and even the Tau Empire on one occasion. Meanwhile the warband is segregated by internal strife, with some officers wanting the Chaos life, others liking the independence as corsairs, and even a couple entertaining the notion of going back to the Imperium, Blackshielding, or taking over a planet and trying to make a better utopia. Each faction has their own hordes of cultists, making some 40,000-50,000 slaves, conscripts, fanatics, and loyal soldiers, plus a few tanks, and aircraft.

All the while the captain astartes (space) and the commander astartes (ground) try their hardest to avoid being amalgamated into more powerful warbands, or falling foul to the vastly superior Imperial Navy, hence being constantly hounded and never being able to linger for long.

Workable concept, or am I trying to make too much head-canon with ambiguous Alphas?

>>53015145

sounds like a fairly generic renegade angle

>>53015043

>nazis murdered jews for greater goos
>morally gray

nah

>>53015043
>>53015003

yeah nah the focus of the novel was not the entire imperium v all of chaos it was a warband v. the imperial personnel of a base, some of which make questionable choices for what they see as the greater good

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>>52994932
Death to the false Emperor!

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That's cool, now get in my belly Milky Way fags.

>>53013064
>Where?
Fall of Shadowbrink, motherfucker. The daemons explicitly gorged themselves on the souls of the Imperials the Tyranids killed, giving them the power to mount a massive real space invasion.

>Imperial boys thinking their Corpse God can protect anything
Lol.

>>53015145
Give them a good gimmick or or something. Your skeleton is basic but workable. Give them more flavor.

>>53015191
I was using Nazis as a shorthand for evil fucks.

A better example, and a real-world one at that, would be WW2 and the alliance with the Soviet Union. The Soviet government was pretty fucked up, but that didn't make all the other allied powers just as bad. Since it was in the name of taking down the Nazis, it was a justified, if grey alliance.

Likewise, on an individual level, there were probably some racist, psychotic fucks among the allied armies. And there were probably some decent people in the Wehrmacht.

Honestly, I don't think any setting could really be true black-and-white without being phenomenally boring. Heroes needs faults, and villains need depth. I think a lot of the stuff we call black-and-white is more like very dark grey-very light grey.

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>>53015457
In lore or on TT? Because in lore he maimed the greatest ultramarine alive and took on his honor guard with no problem and in TT the Swarmlord stomps on daemon princes, like seriously they're on different power levels from each other.

>>52994932
But what if I just want to pursue my dream of being a chef?

>>53013947
But he literally only broke that rule because he thought it was the only way to save his father.

It was an act of love, not of arrogance.

>>53015794
The only reason he was ever in a position to send that warning was because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor and kept practicing his ooga booga Warp craft in secret for years.