Good systems for dogfighting and/or spaceship fighting?

Air War C21 is pretty good. Firestorm was a slightly simplified version of it made by the Planes & Mercs guys. Sadly the download links are dead and the community seems to be just as dead. A cool little game with simple rules that could be adapted to almost any system is Mercenary Air Squadron. Originally a solo game, it can be modified as a simple wargame with RPG elements. There are two settings: a WWII setting set at the beginning of WWII and a modern setting set in a near future where mercenary air squadron are a thing (like the old video game Strike Commander).

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>>52945794
Here you can download MAS: https://ufile.io/h3p18

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And here is an expanded planes, equipment and rules list made by LeFlair from P&M forum with some edits made by me: https://ufile.io/g4uqc

>>52945794

I'm very interested in this. No system that I've played has done it well, not even GURPS.

GURPS

There would also be the RPG In Harm's Way: Wild Blue.

>>52946870
GURPS has always been famous for sucking at vehicular combat.

>>52946454
>Air War C21
Wait so no one has it anymore or what?

>>52946609
>>52946609
Thanks m8

>>52946922
No, it's rather good for land based.
It just sucks when planes and spaceships are involved.

bump for interest

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Why not Dungeon World? It has fast, innovative mechanics and you could easily rework most aerial maneuvers as Moves to speed up gameplay, using different air forces for fronts, and so on. Really Dungeon World is pretty much the perfect system, you could easily adapt it to dogfighting campaign with minimal effort because of how open and innovative the system is. Also it's fast mechanics will make the dogfights pulse-pounding and engaging, rather than a boring snoozefest of some rules-heavy game like D&D 3.5, which ruined a generation of roleplayers.

Where can I find the rules for planes and mercs? I keep hearing about it but google doesn't help, just links me to a dead forum and to the /tg/ wiki which has no links either

>>52947674
I think the C21 stuff's in the giant file link doc thread. Firestorm is kill.

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Twilight 2000 had some pretty palatable rules for Air Combat.

>>52948979
Kill yourself

>>52949016
I managed to find the c21, thanks.

I got In harms way: Wild blue, Dive into the Sky RPG, Airwar c21, and Advanced squad Leader.
Time to read them all and make my own master ground and air PMC simulator fully compatible with OSR stuff

>>52949209
Please, we need more modern OSR things.

>>52946870
4e vehicles isn't out yet, and 3e excelled in land based vehicular combat, but fell short in air and space combat.

Ideally this will be fixed when 4e vehicles comes out sometime in the next three decades.

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only correct answer

>>52949897
hasn't gurps 4e been out for like a decade or something
how did they not do vehicles yet

>>52945794
How do you want the combat to play out? Is it (literally) rocket tag or do you want something tactical and back and forth like 4e D&D? How many combatants per skirmish? How long should fights take in real time? 30 minutes or big setpiece battles that last 2-3 hours?

>>52945794
X-Wing was made for this purpose from the ground up.

>>52950144
>something tactical and back and forth
yes

>How long should fights take in real time? 30 minutes or big setpiece battles that last 2-3 hours?
I'm okay with a 10 plane fight taking 2-3 hours, but a one on one joust should take about 30 minutes to 1 hour. But to be honest, if it's tactical and gets the job done, I don't mind going 1 battle over 4 hours.