/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

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Reposting from the previous thread.

Does anyone have the "World of Darkness General" template/layer that's pasted on the previous thread's OP picture and this one? I want to make more WoD general related images with that particular typeset.

why Arch Masters/Mages are so useless?
>As PC they are basically unplayable and boring
>As Enemy NPC they are completely idiotic because they could just kill you/resurrect you into a lovely THICC girl that's completely into them/make the entire world forget about you/make you think that you are a chicken if you try to screw with them, or try to role your way out of it like in all other games they can just see your true intent
>As helping NPC they are basically walking Deus Ex Machina that can resolve everything in a whim.
>They can do whatever the fuck they want, paradox excluded, so if they are GM controller they are just poor plot devices because they can just cheat it with narrative and what's not.

I'm actually feeling kind of excited for hunter 2e now. It looks like there are all sorts of fun things to do with endowments if they keep it like that. Now let's just hope tactics become worth a damn this time around.

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Who /pugmire/ here? It actually looks like it would be fun for a one-shot.

>>52936571
>>52936584
>>52936599

Mage cosmology shitting on the other gamelines as usual.

>>52936660
I don't get how that's shitting on it. They just exist in the same universe, that's it.

>>52936660
Good things the other game lines don't actually, you know, have a cosmological focus.

>>52936694
The Exarchs are literally responsible for the God-Machine being what it is just by existing up in the Supernal.

Living concepts, metaphors and symbols seem to trump all.

>>52936716
>Exarchs responsible for God-Machine just by existing

Well, isn't that how the Supernal works? It's kind of above everything. It makes complete sense that it would be absolute over all. The symbols represent everything.

>>52936716
Again, I don't really see how thats supposed to be shitting on something. The machine reacts to the exharchs, it reacts to everything. If they weren't there it would simply build itself differently.

>>52936797
Nah, it's complete shittery. The God-Machine only exists because of their existence.

Even the plausibility that it was created by an Archmage agitates me.

>>52936868
>The God-Machine only exists because of their existence.
Non of those quotes say that. It says it uses their symbolism, but again it could just as easily use something else if they didn't exist.

>>52936868
What book says that?

>>52936599
"The God-Machine is a puppet controlled by the Exarchs"

DaveB dropkicking the splats since forever. Truly he is glorious.

>>52936899
>"If the God-Machine is using a network of CCTV cameras to scan a city for demons, it is only able to do so because of the symbolism of paranoia and observation that a lens represents. That symbolism is the Exarch Seers call "The Eye"."

He's been pretty clear.

>>52936917
"-when I bother to reference it at all. In my own games (and in Demons) it doesn't exist at all."

Finish the quote next time, magefag.

>>52936917
Except for the part where he's answering how he runs things in his own games.

>>52936952
You're just saying the same thing over and over dude. None of the words in that sentence in any way imply that without the exharchs there the god machine couldn't do what it does. At this point I'm pretty sure you're false flagging trying to start more dumb flame war stuff

>>52936952
Ugghhh, this is what I mean. God-Machine is literally just an after effect of the Exarchs.

>>52936917
"it's depending on -and exploiting- the Exarchs."
Sounds like they're necessary tools, not controllers.

>>52936981
Without the Eye the God-Machine couldn't make use of said example, I think that's what the point is. These things only exist because the Exarchs do, representing the respective symbols which are inherently themselves

>>52937029
Like I said before, if the exarchs didn't exist that doesn't mean supernal symbols representing a concept wouldn't. They would be different but they would still totally be there, thats how the supernal works. The machine would just use those instead.

>>52937049
So the God-Machine is a slave to the Supernal constantly, regardless of the circumstances? Whether it be the Exarchs or something else entirely?

How is that any better?

>>52937067
That's how it works, yes. Symbols define everything, but are responsible for little. Responsibility being discarded in favor of "it always was".

The God-Machine is going to revolve itself around anything that currently defines existence, but it will always depend on the Supernal. As does everything, except for a minor few exceptions depending.

>>52937047
So, you're saying time, space, matter, energy, etc only exist because of the Exarchs? They don't predate the universe. They might have merged with those forces, but they didn't create them, they're not the source. Also, this general needs to stop treating dev opinion like Gospel, if they didn't put it in one of the books, it doesn't matter. Brookshaw can say whatever he wants about the Machine, it's irrelevant until it's published.

>>52937142
>So, you're saying time, space, matter, energy, etc only exist because of the Exarchs?
No, that's retarded. They represent the symbols of tyranny and oppression.

The Supernal isn't the source of reality and existence, it's the code.

>Also, this general needs to stop treating dev opinion like Gospel, if they didn't put it in one of the books, it doesn't matter. Brookshaw can say whatever he wants about the Machine, it's irrelevant until it's published.
Are you the guy who tried arguing that the Imperial Practices weren't canon as of 2e because they weren't point-for-point mentioned in the core?

>>52937168
>No, that's retarded
I apologize if I misinterpreted your wording.

>Imperial Practices
Nope. I don't think I have that book, actually. The point is, if the devs wanted something to actually be part of the game, it would be in one of the books. There's a lot of WoD books, you'd think they could fit it in somewhere. Brookshaw's opinion is just that, an opinion, and we don't have to actually care. Mages shitting on other splats only happens so far as YOU allow it in YOUR games.

>>52936522
>What is the best clan and why is it Tzimisce?
>implying that the old clan isn't absolutely based

>>52937207
>Brookshaw's opinion is just that, an opinion, and we don't have to actually care

Depends on what he's referring to, really. He has been quite definitive on when he considers his ideals to be canon or not. Personally confirming that the Imperial Practices are still set-in-stone, as one such example.

>>52937207

Isn't DaveB under the effects of 'Word of God', as the Developer? Or are you going to throw 'Death of Author' at me?

>>52936797
> If they weren't there it would simply build itself differently.

Yeah, it would still require the prerequisites to do so. Those prerequisites being the symbols of the Supernal, even if the Exarchs don't represent those one specifically.

>>52937272
Nope. He's a dev, he could have put that in a book. He didn't. Think about it.

>>52937312
>word of God
In your opinion maybe. And that's fine, but that doesn't mean anyone else has to abide by it. Like I said, there's a lot of WoD books, if he wanted that in, it would be.

>>52937457

I think you're delusional, to be honest. It's like trying to argue that George Lucas didn't come up with the pile of shit that is Jar Jar Binks and nearly crashed the franchise into the ground.

>>52937457
We don't need the Imperial Practices updated to second edition to know they're still canon, anon.

>>52937457
>Think about it.
Nigga couldn't even fit more than one Legacy in the wordcount.
I'm inclined to cut him some slack.

>>52936955
>Finish the quote next time, magefag.
Two different sentences relating to two difference things.

>>52936958
As above.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12812374

>>52936952
Okay, but wouldn't that symbolism still exist without The Eye up in the Supernal?

Or was there no symbolism for paranoia and surveillance before she Ascended?

>>52937536
If it's in a book, then name a page number.

>>52937503
Your comparison makes no sense.

>>52937633
You (I assume it was you) use part of a quote for your argument about the Machine, and totally ignore the part where that same dev says he prefers to not use the Machine at all.

>>52937457
>Think about it.
Thought about it. Guy had to prioritize and decided not to include Imperial Practices in the book because the book they're already in is perfectly compatible with 2e.

>>52937721
One of the greatest mysteries was how the world functioned back before the Celestial Ladder was erected and the Abyss eroded the bridge between the Supernal and the mundane.

It probably existed in an entirely different manner, such as how death was once considered a natural and beautiful thing before the Psychopomp showed up and turned it into something to be feared.

>>52937756
28 M:tA books in print, give or take. Yet none of them actually support your argument. He couldn't fit it in just ONE of those? And if he did, CITE YOUR SOURCE.

>>52937759
So keeping with that logic, there would still be symbolism without the Exarchs. It would just be different. Meaning that while the God-Machine exploits the changes the Exarchs have brought to symbolism, it could still function without them. It would still do it's equations and such, but the variables would be different.

Which is why they're called variables, if I recall Algebra correctly.

>>52937734
>doing this again

You will go to any god-fucking length, literally, just to appease your own damned falsehoods and biases. You need an exact citation for literally any conceivable notion going against your own. The Imperial Practices are canon still as of Second Edition.

Your reading comprehension is also alarmingly lacking in accordance with the other posters here. You don't disregard the words of a Developer.

>>52937633
>Two different sentences relating to two difference things.
Nope. I mean the question he's responding to with that quote. I can only imagine they cut that off in the picture for the sake of good bait.

>>52937846
Finally, someone names the book. What page number? Let's review the source together, friend.

>>52937829
There is going to be symbolism regardless of who is currently reigning in the Supernal. The Exarchs just brought something entirely new and tyrannical with them once they Ascended, becoming the symbols of oppression which dominate the world and define it.

Entirely new concepts can be formed, as is the point of Exalting Omens.

>>52937816
Source is Dave, anon. Dave has stated that the Imperial Practices are still compatible with 2e, so that's enough for me. Nothing printed contradicts that, so I'll take his word as a developer of the game. This "IT HAS TO BE PRINTED OR IT DOESN'T EXIST" stuff is silly. Word of God is commonly accepted in regards to stuff like this. You don't have to like it or accept it, but you can't argue that it has no weight without looking like a retard.

>>52937868
Nobody here is going to appease you because you're apparently too retarded to validate sources on your own.

How about we stop making threads until something new comes out?

>>52937913
There's too much material to go hunting though randomly, literally thousands of pages of text. If your source is good, why not tell people what it actually is?

>>52937897
He can say anything he wants, but until it's in a published book, I don't care. No one should.

>>52937913
While I do agree that anon is retarded, burden of proof is a thing.

Imperial Practices are discussed on page 251, and I'm sure somebody has that screenshot of Dave discussing the Imperial Mysteries in regard to 2e.

>>52937897
You mean the same guy who said the Exarchs are tools of the Machine?

>>52937951
>I don't care
Okay, that's fine.

>No one should
Aaaaand this is where you get retarded.

>>52937942
Speaking of, what are the next major releases? Changeling, then giest (or maybe the other way around) then hunter then deviant?

>>52937978
Yes.

>>52937994
>Aaaaand this is where you get retarded.
Why? Again, he's a dev. He can pout anything in any book he wants. If it's in a book that the Machine was made by the Exarchs, then cite your source, let's see it. If he chose NOT to put that in a book, there must be a reason for it.

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>>52937951
1. Exarchs are above the God-Machine
2. Exarchs' existence is the deciding factor for 3. The God-Machines existence
4. The God-Machine was dethroned by the ancient Wizard Lords of Atlantis
5. An Archmage possibly created the God-Machine
6. The Imperial Practices are still canon
7. The Supernal defines everything and more
8. Dave Brookshaw is protected by the Word of God

>>52938018
Someone literally gave you three direct sources from the actual Developer explaining how the God-Machine and the Exarchs relate to one-another.

>>52938018
I would imagine the reason is that cross-splat stuff has never really mattered very much in these largely self-contained games and that he had more important shit to use the space for.

>>52938027
Okay, now WHAT BOOK is all that in? Let's see the source, not your interpretation of it.

>>52938053
And it's nothing that developer put in a book. If it is, NAME IT.

>>52938150
I dunno, they made more of an effort to make cross-splats a thing with Beast. Yes Beast is terrible and should die in a fire, but they're not wholly opposed to it.

Alright level with me folks: What's the erp scene for WoD look like?

>>52938152
>[autism intensifies]

>>52938172
The same as any other game, if you're just looking for something to jack off to, do play by post somewhere. If you want this in an IRL game...God help you.

>>52938199
Your continued lack of a source makes me think you don't have one.

>>52938168
>but they're not wholly opposed to it.
In my opinion they should be. It's fine to have other splats as NPCs in a game or to have connections across the fluff, but go smack some ice cream on your fish sandwich and cover the whole thing in horseradish and tell me how good it looks to you.

>>52938231
Gave you sources right from the fingers of the Developer. You're just an evangelical fucktard incapable of processing it.

Fucking pathetic.

>>52938231
I'm not even that anon, and I don't really mind your stance.

You're just getting more and more autistic about it.

>>52938273

Mind you, he's not really wrong. They haven't provided backup for that statement.

>>52938231
I bet you think the world is flat and only 5000 years old despite the massive amount of accumulated evidence providing the proof of the opposite.

>>52938262
A source means a book, buddy. If a dev wanted it in a book, it would be.

>>52938300
A dev opinion isn't actually evidence. A book and page number would be though. You got one?

>>52938299
The screens of Dave explaining it were posted in the prior thread. He just doesn't accept it and thinks that nobody else should either.

>>52938299
Wrong about what? The Exarch x God-Machine discussion and the Imperial Practices still being canonized?

Three citations were given for the former, the latter DaveB personally stepped in here (about 1-2 weeks ago) confirming that the Imperial Practices were/are still canon.

This isn't something you can refute without being mentally inadequate.

Not gonna lie, former magefag here. This is fucking hilarious watching magefags crash and burn. But in all seriousness we can't let these guys ascend.

>>52938323
>A dev opinion isn't actually evidence
Got a source for that?

>>52938172
>tfw will never get to play out my wish fulfillment game of playing a hunter tenderly loving monster back to humanity

>>52938340
This is obviously the above anon false flagging.

>>52938343
Yup. The fact it's not in a book. If it IS in a book, let's see it, prove me wrong. If you can.

>>52938330
>Imperial Practices still being canonized
Let's see a source for THAT, too. So far it's only been claims that a dev had an opinion. As in, completely meaningless. If he said it, let's see the quote.

>>52938340
>This is fucking hilarious watching magefags crash and burn

I'm noticing the exact opposite, really. But I do admire the attempt at suggesting otherwise.

>>52938340

Honestly at this point I want to see a book turn up and shit over mage powers. It doesn't even need to be powerful itself, just something that can no-sell spells. Just to stop this endless 'Nothing beats mages, you will be a lawn chair!'

>>52938384
There is the section in the 2e Core confirming the existence of the Imperial Practices. But you will probably just find another not-so-clever way to refute it.

>>52938385
>I'm noticing the exact opposite, really
said the magefgag

>>52938414

Nothing wrong with being a magefag!

>>52938407
Page number
a
g
e

N
u
m
b
e
r

>>52938384
>dev words are meaningless
Nice opinion.

>>52938432
I've already posted it.

251.

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>>52938407
>>52938432
Page 251

>>52938432

251 - 252

>>52938327
You mean the screencap of Dave saying Exarchs are tools of the Machine and made no mention of them controlling or creating it? He also compared Exarchs to the electromagnetic spectrum, and the Machine to the TV that reads it. Now, DID radio waves invent television? I forget.

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FUCKING STOP
NO ONE FUCKING GIVES A SHIT ABOUT ANY OF THIS, WHY THE FUCK DO EITHER OF YOU SETS OF AUTISTS KEEP BRINGING IT UP JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

>>52938481
You mean the screencap of Dave saying the Exarchs are the definitive properties of the Machine and made mention that their existence is responsible to its current incarnation and upkeep?

Yeah, the Exarchs and the Supernal really do define all. Nice attempt at twisting words there, buddy.

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>>52938464
>>52938465
>>52938469
This triggers the vampfag

>>52938481
Holy hell, it's like your brain purposely misinterprets the words of the Developer because you hate Mage just THAT fucking much.

>>52938505
This is only being lengthened because certain idiots are refusing to concede to actual fucking evidence.

The magefags aren't instigating this. It's like an atheist trying to explain evolution to a redneck catholic.

>>52938481
You're confusing me with the anon who made those claims. I just pointed out that Dave's words on the God-Machine were already posted.

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>>52938560
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER, WHY THE FUCK DOES ANYONE FEEL THE NEED TO PROVE THEMSELVES RIGHT ABOUT MAKE BELIEVE GAMES ON THE FUCKING INTERNET

>>52938481
The Exarchs don't need to control the God-Machine, nor do they. Their existence is merely paramount to how it functions and even exists in its current form.

Using the Exarchs as tools and exploits is like using the air to breath.

>>52938464
>>52938465
>>52938469
>it's fucking nothing .jpg
And here we go, an actual source! Took long enough. And what do we see? No mention of the Machine, and Exarchs only as what they're rumored to do in very specific situations regarding the Pax Arcanum and violations thereof. Nothing about who made or controls the Machine, not in the slightest. No WONDER magefags were so reluctant to cite anything, they have nothing to cite!

>>52938616
>shifting the goalpost

>>52938616
Wait what? You wanted a citation for the Imperial Practices being canon, not relating to the God-Machine POSSIBLY being created by an Alienated Seeker, which you will find in Imperial Mysteries.

You're going to the extremes, friendo.

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>>52938537
I misinterpret nothing, that's literally what he said.

>>52938637
Shift what? That's what the whole argument has been about.

>>52938642
No, I asked for a source about the Exarchs creating and controlling the Machine, and someone said Dave saying Imperial Practices were canon in 2e proves it. Well the entire section on Imperial Practices makes no mention of it at all.

>>52938658
>wrong citation

Also thanks for posting something that only flaunts unneeded Mage supremacy.

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>>52938616
>asks for page number for the imperial practices in 2e
>gets it
>does a little victory dance in regards to something unrelated
>still insists his opinion on wog is irrefutable fact
Anon, are you actually autistic?

>>52938676
>taking back his words

If you want the citation for the alleged POSSIBILITY of an Archmage having created the God-Machine, go read Imperial Mysteries or search for one of Dave's previous comments on 4plebs.

>>52938689
You don't follow conversations, do you?

>>52938701
See >>52938676

>>52938715
What did I take back? Nothing. I asked for a source, and magefags failed to deliver. But I will review Imperial Mysteries and see how else you can fail.

>>52938786
>God-Machine and Imperial Practices in one post

Thanks DaveB

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>>52938676

>>52938722
>>52938722
>Wrong about what? The Exarch x God-Machine discussion and the Imperial Practices still being canonized?

>>52938384
>>Imperial Practices still being canonized
>Let's see a source for THAT, too. So far it's only been claims that a dev had an opinion. As in, completely meaningless. If he said it, let's see the quote.

>>52938407
>There is the section in the 2e Core confirming the existence of the Imperial Practices. But you will probably just find another not-so-clever way to refute it.

>>52938432
>Page number

>>52938464
>>52938465
>>52938469
>251


Okay, so there's that exchange. How is this not clear? You asked for the source on Imperial Practices, separate to the God Machine stuff, and you got it.

Can you show me where it was said that the section on Imperial Practices proves the God-Machine stuff?

>>52938850
And no one in this thread claimed that the god-machine was created by the exarchs. They've claimed that they exarchs use it and how it exists in it's present state is because of the exarchs

>>52938850
See, this guy knows what he's doing, he actually managed to provide a source. Well done magefag, you make your fellows look like drooling idiots.

Christ I've seen edition wars that weren't this fucking bad.

>>52938898
You realize that for once it's not even the magefags fault, right? Some idiot that wants a citation for everything and disregards the words of the actual Developer.

I'm actually amazed.

>>52938909
>magefags aren't the retarded ones

They never were.

>>52938909
Hey, I don't mind being wrong, I'm just not inclined to blindly take someone's word for it, especially on 4chan. Someone said Exarchs made the God-Machine, I said prove it, then the magefags sperg'd out for an hour. All I did was point out they hadn't actually provided anything to back up their claim.

>>52938909
I don't give a shit whose 'fault' it is. These threads are a graveyard. I mean really how does anyone care enough about what people from across the internet think about people in their role playing games to actually have fights that last for weeks on end over it like this?

>>52938935
>then the magefags sperg'd out for an hour

You were the one sperging out, buddy. They gave you three Developer comments, citations from actual published materials and the patience to deal with you.

You didn't win anything here. No one won anything. You successfully lengthened something pointless on account of your mental ability to process canon material.

>>52938935
You are probably the biggest moron here, to be quite frank.

>>52938935
>Someone said Exarchs made the God-Machine
Where?

>>52938946
We lead very empty lives.

>>52938946
>I don't give a shit whose 'fault' it is

A typical adult response, but not a reasonable enough answer.

>>52939062
Answer to what?

>>52936660
>Literal fucking proof from the developer himself that the Exarchs define the God-Machine's functions, right at the top of the thread.
>Citations regarding the possible/plausible creation of the God-Machine at the hands of an Archmage
>Over one-hundred posts

You guys are completely bat shit retarded, I'm sorry. The evidence was right there, and you go berserk for citations that were already posted.

>>52939163
To be fair, it was just one idiot. Or perhaps a troll. For his/her sake, I hope it was the latter. Nobody should be THAT stupid.

Since that awful discussion is over...

Is Beast salvageable? Should it get a complete rework with a more competent team at the helm? Or does its legacy taint the gameline and any rewrite is futile?

>>52939201
You think it's over? I might actually just shitpost all of this again in the future just to spite the idiot who prolonged this.

>>52939233
People are idiots, deal with it. He didn't know what he was talking about. The Exarchs are indirectly responsible for the God-Machine's existence, and perhaps even its creation if we go by Imperial Mysteires. The Imperial Practices themselves are still canon, and you can't go against the words of the Developer, of any gameline. Especially the one(s) representing their forte.

That's all there is to it. He was wrong and demanded unnecessary demands.

>>52938304
>People can never have afterthoughts about things

You know you're right, it does make sense to reprint an entire book because of two missing sentences of lore fluff

>>52939201
I'll give the same answer I did before: sure you could salvage it, but why when you can just pick up another game.
I'd give some ideas for fluff re writes but I don't have the luxury to sit down and type big posts right now.

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Posting just to spite the idiot who keeps denying it.

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even more spite

>>52939304
>>52939321
There's also >>52938658 where DaveB prefers to consider the God-Machine as a slave to the Exarchs. Doesn't even use it for his games.

>>52935946
oMageFag here. I know we shit on vampfags a lot but really, isn't it the MUH KNOT crowd that tends to dredge up the autism from deepest Furaffinity?

>>52939463
He said "puppet", not a slave. But there really is no difference other than realization.

>>52939321

>"If the God-Machine is using a network of CCTV cameras to scan a city for demons, it is only able to do so because of the symbolism of paranoia and observation that a lens represents. That symbolism is the Exarch Seers call "The Eye"."

God Machine really does rely on the Exarchs then. I don't think the anons here actually bothered to read any of Dave's posts. Including me.

>>52939489
I like to believe it's just shitposting and not actual furfagdom

>>52939489
Only for the 'Archmage vs Luna' situation. The 'Archmage vs Caine' debate is always infested with biased and fat goth people.

>>52939515
I need an actual page and source in order to believe that. Dave's words mean jack shit.

Can an archmage defeat the Wyrm?

>>52939612
Yes, but one wouldn't care enough to

>>52939602
I thought you left, you dumb fuck.

>>52939612
The Wyrm is enough to eat entire worlds, would rape Caine. Archmages can blow up and affect universes. Or even create entirely new ones, multiplied.

So I'm planning a werewolf the foresaken game in a post masquerade future. Whats a good "inciting incident" to make humans aware of the supernatural?

Am I allowed to ask what exactly caused this thread to go downhill?

>>52939612
The answer is probably yes, but why would any storyteller allow it? And what would make the mage believe he'd not be wiped out of existence by the resulting paradox?

>>52939720
Mages. The answer is always mages. Mages and theyll blame vampires

>>52939753
>And what would make the mage believe he'd not be wiped out of existence by the resulting paradox?

You don't just vanish from producing Arch-Sphere effects. They were designed to be usable, not one-shot kamikaze "Allah hu Akbar" suicide nukes.

>>52939720
Someone posted citations heavily suggesting that the God-Machine is nothing more than the bitchbot of the Exarchs and a certain anon lost his shit over it.

For once the magefags were actually innocent.

>>52939702
That's really to broad of a question to answer in most cases, all sorts of things could bring it out in the open. Personally I'm a fan of network zero finally getting a lot of hard to deny stuff on camera.

>>52939612
It's a simple as creating a universal "no more celestines" force. The Wyrm is finished.

>>52938390
Prime can negate powers that can negate powers.

>>52939702
Network zero releases video of reclusive and powerful individual being dragged out into the light of day and spontaneously combusting after manifesting vaious vampire powers.

Spreads virally, various other videos follow.

Vampires can't keep up.

Mages don't exist.

>>52939612
No. Also, >>52939640, not just worlds. The damn thing is "You Cannot Understand the True Form" and above Celestine status, in a category known as "Supernal". Don't take limited dream visualizations from stat-definable beings as the definitive truth of its nature. And you are, because I know exactly what you're citing from page 23 of the 2nd edition Book of the Wyrm.

>>52939835

"Fake and Gay" says internet.

>>52939163
>>52939802

That's just Dave's very biased headcanon. You people need to stop sucking his dick just because he occasionally posts here.

>>52939835
I thought vampires didn't show up on video?

>>52939802
Not for what follows in making it go even further downhill, though.

>>52939873
Only one of his posts contained headcanon, and it revolved around how he approached the situation in his own games.

>>52939879
That's the Lasombra clan weakness and iirc it's only mirrors, they do show up on video tape unless they take a flaw/merit or something.

>>52939871
Archmages can become Celestines in Masters of the Art. They can explicitly rival and surpass the likes of the Wyrm.

I would bet on an Arete 9 Archmage over the Wyrm any day. Forces 9 is enough to erase the Incara/Celestines from existence, unless they can somehow hide from the universe.

>>52939304

This just means the G-M is the exarchs' master

>>52939916
>unless they can somehow hide from the universe

They have their own pocket realms, but Forces 8 can already mold the Shenti. So it's really a tricky thing to discuss. I don't think the Triat would be able to confront a wizard of such power, to be honest.

>>52939916
I just told you that Celestines are under Supernals like the Wyrm. Take a hint from what even M20 was telling you with its spirit rules - if mages actually had to deal with spirits as they are in W:tA, you'd have ludicrous mage gibs all day, every day from all of the agg. We can presumably scale this up across different categories of spirits.

>>52939940
According to you. And only you.

>>52939966
The Supernal doesn't exist in oWoD, anon. Though I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Triat (and Gaia(and perhaps God)) are the three (four(five)) most powerful Celestines. This Is common knowledge.

>>52939966
The fact remains that MotA allows Archmages to evolve into peers of the Triat. The others options being Exemplars, Oracles and just plain Ascending. Or you could remain as a normal Archmage.

>>52939996
Not the Supernal. It's the category of spirit that described the ranking of three spirits in the Triat. They're all above Celestine status. Their psychoses become Celestines, like the Triatic Wyrms, which can tear apart the Celestines of planets on their own (example: see the Incarna of the asteroid belt and what's left to him), in their own realms.

>>52940020
Mage allows a lot of dumb shit. It admitted that it was playing softball with spirits in M20. It's probably that way from the ground level up to the dark vaults of the heavens

>>52940036
Funny, because the Triat (and Gaia) have been called Celestines on many an occasion. I guess this is just another case of written conflict.

>>52939612
I don't think that the Triat (even if they teamed up at once) would be a match or a wizard capable of turning the universe into a toaster.

It was also hinted that an ancient mage could have been responsible for the creation of the universe. What does the Triat have on that?

>>52940056
Many occasions in early editions that didn't have their shit together. Check the 20th anniversary ones, W20 in particular. They are very clear and consistent about Gaia and the Triat being beyond Celestine status and on their own levels.

>>52940077
THIS IS WHAT MAGES REALLY BELIEVE

It's to be dicounted, like consensus reality and technology being a form of magic.

A humble question, does anyone here have Shattered Dreams already?
I really want to read it (I later buy all the 20th manuals in spanish when they come out, but I'm really anxious about this one)

Forces 9 Prime 9
>I remake the current universe into my own personal multiverse incapable of harboring any sort of conceivable gods other than mages and their inferiors.
>I am now the sole Omnipotent deity of all Creation
>Brucatto will be imprisoned for all eternity, of that I promise.

>>52940117
>Many occasions in early editions that didn't have their shit together
Likewise could be said of the newer editions. This isn't a video game, retcons aren't something to be considered as an absolute.

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>>52940127

This is why I love Mage. Creativity can literally beat ANYTHING.

>>52940117
>Waaagh consensual reality isn't real

Yes it is, deal with it.

>>52940127
Well you've got my vote.

>>52940150
Except that the earlier editions were marked by critical resource failures and an inability to keep to themes. Hence, discounting them as the word of book in conversations.

>>52940127
In Mage. In other games, you presumably become a gaffling's bitch on your first voyage into the Umbra.

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>>52940117

>>52940127
>>52940164
>"We're gonna make the Tellurian great again!

>"You know its just awfully good that, Mages aren't canon in my CofD games."
>"Because you'd be a lawn chair"

>"We are going to build a big beautiful Gauntlet, and nobody reinforces the Gauntlet like me, believe me."

>>52940164
"Creativity"? Is that what they call the authors bending over backward to keep their favorite safe from harm?

>>52940166
Only in Mage. Which is basically an even more different setting than the others, and is cosmologically the opposite of Werewolf.

>>52940166
But Consensual Reality isn't real. In real life it's just some dumb philosophical thing and in Ascension it's just a cheap creative cop out.

>>52940178
Nope. This is tabletop gaming, my friend. You don't discredit the other editions as it's all based on preference. Even the original authors of Ascension have directed others before to both 2e and Revised for separate reasons.

>>52939796
But wouldn't getting killing/erasing something from reality that is the antagonist of a whole nother gameline warrant some sort of massive negative blowback?

>>52936522
Tzimisce are a redoculously dumb in concept and execution.

If you want alien vampires fine but fleshcrafting means there should logically be no masquerade because the shit they do is just so blatent.

If you want eastern european lords you should have just made them Ventrue with a cultural divide based on the old pagan beliefs and the growing force that was Christianity.

>>52940203
That's what you think.
>>52940199
That's because the Werewolves [and Vampires] are wrong. What they take for the whole story is only part of it.

>>52940214
No? Though it is all up to the ST, which just discredits Paradox even further.

>>52940189
>>CofD

I think you forgot something.

>>52940180
>>52940189

Even Mage didn't think that Mage was in the same setting. See also, Ascension and its talk of universe bubbles.

>>52940215
>If you want alien vampires fine but fleshcrafting means there should logically be no masquerade because the shit they do is just so blatent.
What? They don't walk their creations down the street or go shopping with their warforms on.

>>52940215
>>52940215
>implying tzimice have any interest in socializing outside their havens

Also flesh crafting allows oneself to reshape the form into a more acceptable shape for the less open minded

>>52940127
Oh damn that's fucking amazing. I can't even imagine what ten dots in both would be.

>>52940204
Sure you do. We're talking about later editions. Nothing has talked about Celestines being the upper limit since 2nd edition, which was nearly 20 years ago. I can only assume that the revised and anniversary editions are the ones with clear visions for how shit is supposed to go down.

>>52940227
Actually, Garou have a far more expansive "vidare" than the one that mages do, since they can switch between outer space, the Aetherial Realm, and the Deep Umbra. Mages generally only get one of those. Also, the standpoint that everything is explanable through Mage, is itself just an inherent bias of Mage.

>>52940313
Your preferences don't equate to the vast majority. Telling D&D veterans that 4e discredits 3.5e is going to get your face punched in. Likewise for 2e and revised, with 20th anniversary editions as an added memento.

>>52940313
You are wrong.

>>52940269
A bottle of Jergen's, presumably.

>>52940313
>Mages generally only get one of those
I don't know much about Ascension so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an entire group of space-faring mages or something?

I feel like they can go to the Aetherial Realm and the Deep Umbra as well.

>>52940313
>waaaah my edition is better than yours
>waaaah my edition is canon yours is not
>waaaah i'm an idiot

You really need to stop typing. One edition doesn't trump the others. That's not how this works.

>>52940359
Yeeaaah, I think you're right! What are they called again? Void Constructors I think?

>>52940343
D&D isn't WoD. Also, you'll note that we've gone from BSDs being an unidentified former tribe to being fallen White Howlers who were mindless berserkers to WHs who were just cornered and thought that they had to do something. Which one to trust?

Well, not the one with wolf-headed bikini babes, that's for certain.

>>52940345
NO U!

Outer space in W:tA is quite physical, and very much distinct from the Aetherial Realm and the Deep Umbra. Read Umbra Revised or W20 Umbra.

>>52940359
Mage is big on "all worlds of spirit are the same, only the perspective changes things". It's very much in a corner playing UNO with an unplugged PS3 on that, since it is the only game to take this perspective. Hence, W:tA gives access to a wider picture than M:tA, just because it has other parts of the spirit as different actual places.

>>52940396
W:tA isn't canon.

>>52940377
Void Engineers.

>>52939802
This is the one time I'm willing to admit it's his fault, because those screen caps don't even suggest that the exharchs are in charge of the god machine or anything of the nature, HE'S the one insisting that they are.

>>52940396
>D&D isn't WoD

You clearly didn't get the point.

>>52940440
I'm not sure I trust your opinion.

You seem kind of biased.

>>52940440
>W:tA gives access to a wider picture than M:tA,

Ascension is much wider than Apocalypse, anon. Mage has always been the cosmological splat, with Werewolf as a close second. Not so much for Forsaken.

>>52940449
Nobody ever insisted that the Exarchs control the God-Machine other than DaveB which we can rightfully ignore.

You also have to remember that the God-Machine relies on the Exarchs to even exist as it does.

>>52940362
It might not trump them, but they sure aren't very relevant, and I don't care about early installment weirdness.

>>52940441
Your face isn't canon

>>52940481
>DaveB
>which we can rightfully ignore
Except he's the developer.. .. ..

>>52940493
>but they sure aren't very relevant
Just as much as the 20th anniversary editions aren't relevant, yep.

>>52940481
>other than DaveB
But he fucking didn't. Like ever. You're literally trying to make an issue where none exists and I can't believe people fell for false flagging this blatant for this long
>You also have to remember that the God-Machine relies on the Exarchs to even exist as it does.
Exist as it does sure, exist at all no.

Why are werefags such fucking retards?

>>52940531

>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>52940441
Certainly not to M:tA, sure. But if we don't pick between those two, then it's Vampire and Demon cosmology, and oh fuck no.

>>52940466
Read the books. The inconsistencies between the two games will be glaring.

>>52940468
Just because you say that doesn't actually make it true, you know. Just like how space beyond the asteroid belt isn't one and the same with the Umbra.

>>52940535
They have an overwhlming desire to outdo vampfags in every field possible

>>52940531
Calm the fuck down. This entire thread was derailed because of an idiot just like you. Or maybe you're that idiot?

>>52940556
I'm sure there are inconsistencies. I meant about Werewolf having the bigger picture.

>>52940535
Read the books. Get angrier.

>>52940515
They're far more widely available now. Also, it has Revised backing it up.

>>52940556
Mage the Ascension has an actual faction dedicated to dealing with the infinite possibilities of the Deep Umbra, the Garou also touch upon that, but nowhere near the same extent.

You're even more biased than vampfags, dude.

>>52940576
Listen, do you really want to have outer space and the Deep Umbra as the same thing? Does that seem expansive to you, or amazingly contractile and weird?

>>52940571
That anon is right though.

Dave never said anything about Exarchs controlling the GM or anything about the GM relying on them to exist.

>>52940535
Getting a videogame out of it m8

Expect us to fuse with /v/tards for your endless horror.

>>52940580
>Read the books. Get angrier.
I could say the exact same words to you, boy.

>>52940531
Listen. The Exarchs are just SOOOO much better than the God-Machine. Deal with it.

>>52940605
>Dave never said anything about Exarchs controlling the GM
Nobody ever implied this other than DaveB for his own games
>the GM relying on them to exist.
Except that's literally how it works, though it's more accurate to say it relies on the entirety of the Supernal itself. As does everything. It's the goddamn code.

>>52940601
I think that the different splats having different perspectives is fine and one doesn't necessarily need to trump the other or adhere to another's cosmology or whatever you call it.

You people are beyond salvation if you're in this much denial over the words of a developer.

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>>52940553
>
>>52940571
No, I just get tired of people constantly chocking out any fucking discussion of the game at all with retarded /a/ tier who's better flame wars. Especially when the games are dead enough as is and the only other place to talk about them worth mentioning is the OPP forums
>>52940649
g8 b8 m8 etc etc

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>>52940664

>>52940313

You forget that the Garou are rabid animals that need to be put down if their history is any indication, and not authorities on anything besides their own delusional self-justifications.

Also Yiff in hell, furfag.

>>52940649
>Nobody ever implied this other than DaveB for his own games
Right, so it isn't an issue. Just his preference for his own games that don't affect anything else.

>Except that's literally how it works
Where is that said? All that Dave said is that the God Machine uses symbols, and that Exarchs happen to be those symbols. I take that to mean that if the Exarchs weren't around it would just use other symbols.

The words of Dave Brookshaw

>the Eye isn’t some archmage sitting on a throne in another dimension, she *is* surveillence. The symbol of it.

>When the God-Machine uses the hidden symbolic properties of things to build its occult matrixes, it’s dependent on – and exploiting – the Exarchs. They’re the electromagnetic spectrum to its TV transmission.

>The god-machine is the collective effect of the hidden symbolic meaning of things triggering when they move into certain patterns. The Exarchs, as Supernal beings, are the hidden symbolic meanings of things.

>The Exarchs aren't off in a distant otherrealm you can just walk around. The Exarchs are the symbolic properties of things. If the God-Machine is using a network of CCTV cameras to scan a city for demons, it is only able to do so because of the symbolism of paranoia and observation that a lens represents. That symbolism is the Exarch Seers call "The Eye".

>The two never touch one another. From the Exarch's point of view, the God-Machine is part of the Fallen World. From the God-Machine's point of view, the Exarchs are variables it uses in its calculations.

You can't go against ANY of this other than applying your own house-ruling, which is even supported because CofD is a FUCKING SANDBOX SYSTEM.

Have a lovely night, Chronicles of Fagness.

>with 1 dot of mind my mastigos can effortlessly brainwash your character

how does that make you feel

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>>52940727
DaveB literally refers to the God-Machine as dependant on the Exarchs. Hmmmmm. Exploiting their symbols to exist as it does. Hmmmmm.

>tfw magefags are again correct

>>52940793
Horny af

>>52940793

RAAAAAAPE

>>52940793
You need two dots plus Reach.

So not one dot and not effortlessly.

>>52940804
Congratulations for being right all the time. But you have successfully lost a point of Wisdom.

Dave would be disappoint.

Bad mages.

>>52940804

the god machine is using them. exploiting them. giving them the robocock.

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>>52940793

>>52940878
>accusing me of being a magefaggot

Go fuck yourself, you sperg burger. I'd rather be torn apart by Gentry penis, which is totally NOT my fetish.

>>52940615
Doesn't work. I've already read them. I'm delivering to you that information.

>>52940654
It's not just that their perspectives are different, they're basically in parallel universes that don't work the same way.

>>52940451
Listen D&D had complete functional rules in its earlier editions. Mage didn't even get usable magick rules until its player's guide was released.

>>52940889
11/10 fanfiction would read.

Even better than canon. Hot yaoi love between a robot and weird trippy symbols.

>>52940889
They were mages at one point in time. And like all mages they desire cock above all else. Even if they are completely tsundere about it

>>52940929
>I've already read them
I require proof of this. Please cite all of the books you read and list all the relevant pages which align with your views. I need proof.

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>>52940804

So if the Exarchs are above the God-Machine in overall power and influence, would they also be above the Gentry? They don't relate to the real world like the God-Machine does.

>>52940961
Sure. The list is on wikipedia's WoD section. Alternately, the old WW back catalog on DTRPG.

>>52941014
>power
Yes
>influence
Maybe? Neither of those actually ever directly interact with the world, they send in either seers of the throne/whatever those soul bodies are called or else angels.
They can't really be compared to the gentry. The exarchs have actual goals and what not, the gentry are just fucking around and having fun, they don't give a shit about humans except for the occasionally toy.

>>52941014
Considering that Fate already supersedes the workings of the Wyrd, I would say yes.
The Hedge & Arcadia run off things which shouldn't conceivably exist, but they would still be represented as symbols within the Supernal.
The Supernal Realms being more the source CODE than the source outright.

>>52941051
>Maybe
While I'm leery about it, the Exarchs have explicitly won their right to rule over all. The God-Machine is in constant flux to keep itself going, while the Ascended are eternally content with their piece of reality being their own, The Exarchs arguably having the biggest piece.

>>52941014
Yes. Screwing with a True Fae's contracts is a Fate 7 spell.

>>52941051
I think it's safe to say that the Exarchs have far more influence than the God-Machine. They can spawn infinite Ochemata literally anywhere.

>>52941014
Well fucking above the Gentry.
Who have to lower their power level significantly so they can enter the real world, and are only a cosmic-grade threat in their home realm, and even there are still defeatable by those who can play them at their own game.

>>52941163
The Exarchs also represent the masses, the God-Machine does not. It requires the Exarchs to even work.

>>52936522
>What is the best clan and why is it Tzimisce?
Tzi arer cool and all, but I don't like animalism and auspex is boring.

Lasombra are better

>>52941179
>Who have to lower their power level significantly so they can enter the real world, and are only a cosmic-grade threat in their home realm
Couldn't you say the same about the Exarchs?

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>>52940727
And who fucking cares? If you're not running a fucking Mage game it doesn't fucking matter. Or, y'know, it doesn't matter IF YOU AS THE ST DON"T WANT IT TO.

Why do Ascended mages beat everything? I thought the top-tier powers were supposed to be equal representatives.

>>52941163
For all we know the god machine can spawn infinity rank 6+ angels can't it?

>>52941224
Exarchs themselves can't really enter the world, as they're not really discrete entities any more.
Their Ochemata however could break the True Fae over their knee, if doing so wouldn't be an overt breach of Pax Arcana.

>>52941245
Then you thought wrong.

>>52941245
>I thought the top-tier powers were supposed to be equal representatives.
Whatever gave you that impression?

>>52941224
Not really. The Exarchs don't leave the Supernal, period. The real would can't handle living symbols. Confronting them deletes you entirely, as is the fate of failed Threshold Seekings. A very terrifying prospect.

>>52941268
>>52941276
Yeah, I meant with Ochemata. They dilute some of their presence into a mortal body and that's an Ochema, right?

>>52941304
They don't dilute anything. They can spawn an infinite amount at an infinite rate. The Exarchs hold within them legions of world shattering entities according to the Seers.

Ochemata are your personal minions, and sometimes your personal avatars. You also get to choose how powerful they are.

>>52941250
False. The Demon book specifically creating a new angel is a rare and resource hungry event. The GM does have a bunch of Angel bits in storage though. However, summoning an Angel to earth still requires infrastructure (although often a lot of the infrastructure is reused.)

An example given is where some people have to die within some distance of specially prepared clock towers to summon an angel. The clocktowers still exist afterwards (although disguised) but the ritual still needs to be repeated. Give me a second to look up precise sources.

>"Below the Archigenitors and the Iron Seals that represent the Arcana, the Seers of the Throne populate choruses and legions of lesser Exarchs. They speak of 8 million recorded gods, seven legions of Arch-Ascended under every Seal, ruling 77 ochemata and 777 secret masters of the world, and even universes within each Exarch’s soul, huge enough to spawn infinite avatars."

The Exarchs are really damn powerful.

What is Ascension?

>>52941304
There's no limit to the number of Ochemata the Exarchs can spawn, other than the amount that reality can take.

Too many Ochemata risks exposure of magic, strengthening of the abyss, and breaking the Pax.

They like the status quo as it exists.
Every Ochemata, with its frequently world-shaking power, risks ruining that.

>>52941373
What the fuck is this.

>>52941429
Becoming a Supernal Symbol, inscribing yourself in the cosmological source-code of reality, a position of such mind-shattering effect that reality itself shifts to accomodate you, and you can only be removed by a similar effort by another would-be Ascendant Mage.

>>52941373
That might just be Seer propoganda.
Or it might not.
Who knows.

>>52941373
I didn't realize just how mighty the Exarchs were.

>>52941429
The ultimate act of 'fucking off' I believe.

>>52941489
It's not propaganda at all. Half of what is there is explicit and has been listed in various other published works. Infinite Ochemata, becoming a lesser Exarch and merging with the greater whole, enslaved gods serving the Seers, etc.

>>52941373
I still dislike how this is basically hold over from owod's 'victory is impossible the bad guys already won fuck you' thing.

>>52941373
That's really fucking impressive. Eight-million gods is a LOT of gods. The Exarchs really fucked up Heaven.

So the Exarchs are top dog on the power scale?

>>52941605

More than likely.

>>52941605
In the settings where they exist sure. Though bad guys vastly outclassing the good guys has never been out of place in WoD exactly

>>52936522
>What is the best clan and why is it Tzimisce?
I see you are a man of culture as well

>>52941605
Definitely, with the possible exception of the Principal.

>>52941333
Too bad the God-Machine sucks such massive dick then...If he were an Exarch or any Mage really he could do it easily.

If you don't consider cross-over, mages are actually the weakest, as the power gap from starting player mages and masters of the art is the biggest one.

I would rather be a vampire in a VtM game than be hunted by technocrats in MtA

>>52941711
You're referring to Ascension, where mages are at the extremes. They start off incredibly weak but can potentially destroy literal gods of the highest order.

Awakening isn't as erratic, and you start off relatively privileged. The potential is still enormous.

>>52941711
Vampires actually get the shittiest deal, in my opinion. Doubly so in Masquerade where they don't even get sex.

>>52941711
Thing is though, unless the Symposium is dominated by some hardline Iterators (or even NWO's) who masturbate daily over the thought of reinstating the Progrom, then you'd have to do some important shit to draw the Union's attention.

>>52941767
Who do you think gets the best deal? Mummies?

Why are the other Splats so powerless and useless compared to Mage?

What is it about Mage that makes it so delicious?

>>52941823
The other splats concepts aren't really geared towards the power of mage.

>>52941819
Hard to say. In my opinion it's Awakening Mages, and not even because they're the strongest or whatever. But I could be wrong since my knowledge of the more obscure splats like Mummy and Geist and such is hardly complete.

>>52941823
Mage is all about privilege and power, and creativity to enforce it.

>>52941823
Because mages have to deal with that >>52941373
And all a werewolf has to deal with is rowdy spirits and other werewolves.

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>>52941819
Geists probably

>Little downside to being one
>Very hard to kill
>Got to avoid DEATH and come back
>Fourth strongest splat, after Demons, Mummies, and Mages, without any of the cosmic horror of those splats.

Really only Mages compete on the "This isn't so bad" scale.

>>52941767
Vampires still get sex; you don't even have to spend blood for it if your Humanity is 8 or hire.

>>52942052
I never got the point of Geist when we already had Wraith

>>52942064
I thought they couldn't do the nasty or even want to do the nasty in Masquerade and that they changed that for Requiem?

>>52942064
>Humanity 8 or higher.
Nobody ain't got time for that, anon.

>>52942080
Wraith is Old World of Darkness, Geist is the replacement for CofD

>>52942104
Nah. In both games, it requires the Blush of Life to be active to have sex (it's automatically 1 BP in Requiem, 8-Humanity BP in Masquerade, which is why it's free for Kindred with Humanity 8 or above).

>>52942117
Well, if you have a Storyteller who's willing to make the hierarchy of sins work perfectly well...

>>52942117
Everybody does have time for it, I agree.

Another thread killed because someone decided to bring up mages.

Mages need their own separate thread

>>52942262
It was killed because someone decided to try bullshitting mages.

>>52942080
You died, but got to come back. Now you have a ghost buddy and you gitta do what he wants or he'll hijack your corpse

>>52942262
These threads are dead on arrival until we get something new to talk about.

>>52942307
You guys just bullshit yourselves, nobody cares about exbox or whatever

>>52942340
This comment made me chuckle for some perplexing reason.

>>52942307
Indirect or directly. Thread still died because of mages

>>52942262
No one is talking about the new hunter endowment stuff, which makes me sad.

>>52942340

piss4 > exbox

>>52942387

>>52937672
I like how Beast isn't on the list since it would objectively be the worst answer.

>>52938005
Sounds like Geist 2e>Changeling 2e> Then either Hunter or Deviant.... >Mummy 2e somewhere in the far future (Maybe an announcement at GenCon?)

Sprinkled amongst those core books will be supplement books, the remaining stuff for Beast,A Thousand Years of Night, Half-Damned, Signs of Sorcery, Tome of the Pentacle, The Hedge, Night Horrors: Enemy Action, Dark Eras 2, Crossover Chronicle

>>52942591
I have heard nothing about Geist 2e is its developer living on the moon or something?

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>>52940215
>If you want alien vampires fine but fleshcrafting means there should logically be no masquerade because the shit they do is just so blatent.

Well, only in the Victorian Age, actually...

See, in the Dark Ages, they could do whatever the fuck they wanted because hey, vampires openly ruled in many of their demesnes (and some still do so in the modern age) and nobody wanted to poke too deeply into these things because ignorance was bliss when it came to the monsters of the night.

In the Modern Age, as more and more outlandish body-mods become available and more commonplace, it becomes easier for fleshcrafted ghouls to be seen in the open, as long as the Fleshcrafting is subtle and not "my insides are on the wrong side of my ribcage".

That doesn't mean they don't have to be careful, and Vozhds and non-human Fleshcrafted monsters are still a big no-no, since the Masquerade still needs to be maintained.

The Elder Tzimisce don't walk around in the open, and as for the younger Tzimisce... well, they either keep the stuff subtle enough to pass as "weird body mods, ugh, kids these days", or they slaughter everyone that sees the more outlandish stuff, cover it up and blame it on gangs, serial murderers, and so on.

That said, I'm sure quite a few Princes would want Fleshcrafting to be gone forever because they recognise the potential harm it could to do the Masquerade.

>>52942373
Nobody care...why play Hunter when a Mage can do all that and more and be more human?

Hunter is redundant.

>>52942373
Dude I just came on here hoping for people to be productive and making endowments.

Instead it's more mage wank.

I'm glad this company is dying.

>>52943952
There's no way a Tzimisce without Obfuscate even exists in modern, really. The fact that they don't have it in-clan is meaningless; they must learn it, teach it to their childer, and spread it to the entire clan, because they don't have a clanwide mental disability.