/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

http://www.strawpoll.me/12827200

>>52900378
>Do beasts make better husbandos than werewolves?
No

>>52900398
Everyone who isn't a drooling moron knows that Mages are strongest all else being equal. But only a drooling moron would ever have two splats using the rules from their respective books in the same game.

>>52900483

No, in Awakening, the symbolic is still open to interpretation. People interpret symbols differently. Death of the Author and all that.

In Ascension, Belief is supposedly paramount. Belief defines reality and all that. Which can have, well, really fucked up implications if you think about it too hard.

Both are ultimately subservient to imagination, from which they both spring.

>>52900544

All else is rarely equal.

>>52900378

How is that a real question? All the splats make shitty life partners, but Beasts are probably the absolute worst.

>>52900544
Mummies and demons are in a power class above other splats but generally below mages.

>>52900378
Yeah, sure only if you got shit taste

Why splat X is shit as a waifu/husbando:

Vampire: Parasitic blood-sucking undead that might kill you while feeding, or turn you into one of them.

Werewolf: Your spouse has managed to piss off a whole bunch of spirits who decide to take it out on you.

Mage: Seers or Pentacle kidnap your ass for use as leverage. Also you see them do magic and go crazy, then forget about it.

Promethean: Too clingy and they get on your nerves all the time without meaning to and you cant take it anymore.

Changeling. Ever date someone with borderline personality disorder? Now imagine they have magic powers.

Hunter: Comes home 4 am covered in blood and worse (if they come home) and asks you if you can work a back-hoe.

Geist: As werewolves, but with ghosts instead. Also forget about a peaceful life because these niggaz get wild AF.

Mummy: Binds you to them for eternity or until they tire of you. You dream of how the world changes but wake up to find out it's fake.

Demon: They're not who you think they are, They're just using you, and one day they'll leave you alone to wonder what happened.

Beast: A spouse who either treats you like shit or torments your nightmares, but it's for your own good, we promise.

Deviant: Someone who can't form interpersonal connections and defines themselves by their causes? No thanks.

To this day the best husbando ever put out by WW/OPP is still Divis Mal:^)

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Just two weeks until Anthology.
Get hype!

>>52900678
>Death of the Author

I don't think you know what the above even means

>>52900962
I see nothing wrong with hunter

>>52900678
>No, in Awakening, the symbolic is still open to interpretation

Not really, the Supernal is absolute. The only interpretive part is how you incorporate them or process the symbols as they are.

The belief aspect is based around Ascension, not so much for Awakening. Both are all about creativity and the imagination, I can agree on that. We're talking about wizards here, after all.

>>52901128

Basically, that authorial intent doesn't matter. That's where a lot of "between the lines" type symbolism comes from, right? That and psychoanalytic masturbation, of course.

>>52901228

I'm not even sure what you're getting at.

>>52901260

That in a lot of cases, people pull symbolism out of their asses IRL. Whether or not it's supernal, well, that's another question.

>>52900398
The 'Caine vs Archmage' / 'Luna vs Archmage' polls were more entertaining.

Of course the Archmage won for both.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12812374

>>52901327
>Luna vs Archmage

I was somewhat amazed by the zealous werefags that took Luna's side without even putting in a little decent effort to back up their reasoning as to why, which they didn't even have.
I mean, Imperial Mysteries went out of its way to mention a god of equivalent rank that got thrown down by ancient wizards. It's not far fetched to assume a super-mage could do the same.

At times it felt like they weren't even werefags to begin with, rather people trying to spite Mage by using any conceivable leverage they could find.

>>52901407
Definitely masqueradefags

>>52901407
>I use Transfiguration to make Luna my waifu forever and ever and ever
>"NUH UHH"
>I use Honorary Rank to slap Luna and forcer her to make me a sandwich
>"NUH UHH"
>I accuse you of being a biased dingleberry
>"nah ur jus stooped

The whole Luna vs Archmage argument in one post

>>52901443
To be fair, the mass collective of Mage-haters never bother to even touch books minimally related to Ascension / Awakening, out of fear for the safety of their biases.

>>52901407
Personally, I think that if a mage can fae better than a changeling, or spirit better than a werewolf, that's a design misstep. Mages should be superior in their own areas of expertise, but not be able to outdo other splats at their own game.

>>52901583

Mages can't.

Archmages can.

>>52901180
>Not really, the Supernal is absolute. The only interpretive part is how you incorporate them or process the symbols as they are.
The Supernal literally cannot be perceived outside of someone's personal interpretation, because it's not designed to be comprehended by humans. Normal Mages get the interpretations provided by their respective Watchtowers (and ostensibly therefore the Oracles who created them), while Archmasters get the interpretations provided by the Lustrums they create.

>>52901666
I'd cut archmages out of the setting entirely, if I had my choice. You want to understand all the mysteries of the Supernal? Ascend. The only thing I'd allow to circumvent that is building another Celestial Ladder.

>>52901443
The Luna vs. Archmage argument was as follows:
>I use Transfiguration to make Luna my waifu
>Good luck, she uses Transfiguration to permanently transform you into a newt while you're still gathering Quintessences, because you need preptime and she doesn't.
>Nuh-uh, I already have Quintessences!
>How?
>I just do! Shut up! REEE

>>52901728
How does Luna even know what the Archmage is up to? Is she omniscient?

>>52901758
Watchfulness and Protection are two of her roles, so yes. Luna has a hell of a lot of Influences.

>>52901782

This is assuming the other Archmages don't figure out what you're doing and re-enact the torture scene from Reservoir Dogs on you for trying to break the Pax before Luna notices.

>>52901728
Luna can't just detect the Archmage, that's called fan fiction.

Transfiguration EFFECTS are permanent, the Archmage only need to enchant himself to 'dominate all spirits' to beat her.

>>52901728
>>52901758
>>52901782
>>52901842
So what I'm hearing is "if you want to make Luna your waifu, you're better off courting her or using your incredible powers to catch her eye the way Father Wolf did rather than trying to magic her into being your bitch".

This seems entirely reasonable and thematic to me, and actually brings in the "Your Imperial Arcana are broader in possible application than her Influences" angle as an advantage.

>>52901880
>Luna can't just detect the Archmage, that's called fan fiction.
>Perform any effect imaginable relating to watchfulness, guardianship, warding, or protection, whenever she wants, just by spending some Essence
>Can't just detect when someone is trying to fuck with her and stop them

>>52901889
>the way Father Wolf did
We know for a fact he was a Pangean mage, who's to say he didn't just use magic to win.

>>52901583
>>52901666
>Mages should be superior in their own areas of expertise, but not be able to outdo other splats at their own game.

Fate and Spirit are both an Arcanum, of course they're superior in their areas of expertise, you dumb fuck.

It just so happens that they overlap with other splats, get over it.

>>52901902
>watchfulness

Yeah, I guess it's as easy as staying in your Golden Road / Chantry or hiding from the Moon. Transfiguration also can't go further than sensory range, buddy.

You need to step the fuck down with your obsessive misinformation.

>>52901919

I still say fate is the most bullshit arcanum, and i'm a magefag. And death is still weak.

>>52901889
Normally, I'd agree with you. But if there's one thing you don't do more than you don't stick your dick in crazy, it's try to wife said crazy.

And as an aside, we all know what happened to Father Wolf. Not really a result of Luna's crazy, but still.

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Beating Luna as an Archmaster of Spirit isn't hard as long as you're of Gnosis nine and above.

>>52901931
How far do you think sensory range is for the fucking moon, considering her original job was "protect the earth from impossible gribblies from beyond space and time"?

And how are you gathering all the chantries you need from inside your Golden Road, and without sending agents out (which she could then detect)?

>>52901889
But then you won't have magefags acting out their vaguely Oedipian fantasies on Becky and Stacy from school

>>52901943
Death is great, bite me.

Prime is the weakest.

>>52901945
Hence the "if you want to make Luna your waifu".

It's a very big if.

You could try to Mind her into being less crazy, I guess, but good luck with that considering she has a Madness Influence.

>>52901963

Universal Countermagic.

>cast Spirit Transfiguration on self
>permanent ability to command all spirits with voice and will alone
>what can Luna even do

kek

Archmages can theoretically beat any non-Supernal god in a 1v1 fight if they're obsessed enough. You can't go against this, not when there's literally an example of this happening in Imperial Mysteries with the Mother of Fire, who is of the same damn rank as Luna.

>>52901950
>if you're fortunate enough to reach ten dots of Spirit
If you reach ten dots of Spirit you've achieved Siddhi Ascension, so sure, do whatever the fuck you want at that point.

>>52901975
If you tried to leave her for being too crazy she would probably just make you as crazy so that you match.

Or some other crazier shit that I'm not crazy enough to think of.

>>52901950
>>52901951
>>52901988

You are still forgetting every other goddamn Archmage, the God-Machine, Helios, the True Fae, the Exarchs, and whoever represents the other splats coming together to destroy your asshole for breaking the Pax.

>>52901666
Normie Mages can still outdo the other gamelines relatively easily without being an Archmage, anon.

Acanthus are better Changelings
Moros are better Sin-Eaters
Thyrsus are better Uratha

Why do you think they're hated so much?

>>52902009
It doesn't matter, the capability is still there.

The Pax was one of the best additions to the lore though, unlike Ascension where you have super-wizards running around and you question why the universe even exists as it is.

>>52901998
If you aren't attracted to crazy (as well as absurd mood swings, thank you Change Influence), you probably aren't even interested in trying this in the first place.

>>52902039
I don't think anybody's disputed that Archmages hypothetically can make Luna their bitch, assuming nobody does anything to stop them.

>>52901919
>get over it.
So translation 'stop not liking the things I like'? I mean I get why the devs did it and everything but that doesn't change the fact that people are going to not like it and think it was a stupid move.

>>52902041
What could one expect from husbandoing Helios?

>>52901979
Prime's abilities are largely supplementary. While it's handy, it can't really carry you like basically any of the other Arcana can.

>>52901951
Sensory range for Luna? Anything under the moon. She also can't reach into your Golden Road by definition of how it works.

The Archmage is for all intents and purposes untouchable by Her Grace, unless of course the Seeker summons her into his Chantry to begin with, which is something they can actually do.

In this sense, the Archmaster actually has a better a preemptive strike than she does.

>>52901988
If we're going into "I already cast this effect on myself", I'm pretty sure Luna's Change Influence (or Madness Influence) allows her to have already cast "immunity to being subject to any effect for any longer than she feels like".

>>52902079
That's not the kind of Change she has purview over, I would have expected you to know this.

You're going into plot-device territory now, in which case I might as well say the Supernal trumps everything related to the Shadow.

>>52902079
>I make this up with nothing to back it up other than "change" being a purview of Luna

Holy hell, you werefags will literally go to any fucking length.

>>52902097
>You're going into plot-device territory now
Welcome to the Practice of Transfiguration, which is literally "I pit my unstoppable plot device against your unstoppable plot device", and gets retarded immediately.

>>52902058
>I don't think anybody's disputed that Archmages hypothetically can make Luna their bitch
The werefags did, vigorously. And then once that failed they tried to attack the hypothetical angle, saying that since it was all in theory it didn't really matter, even though the whole argument was just hypothetical in the first place. They also tried to throw all the Imperial Practices out the window at one point, saying that Dave's words as the dev were meaningless despite him being a largely accepted authority.

They got pretty desperate.

>>52902079
Madness is a facet of Mind, how does it protect her from something relating to Spirit? Her purview covers Madness, Change and the Moon.

>>52902079
I would allow it if only because I'm an exalted fag and one of her canon abilities over there is to just ignore shaping affects when she doesn't feel like it anymore.

>>52902070
>Anything under the moon
So the solution is to attack from above the moon?

>>52902138
Except the difference being that the Arcana outstrip the relative Purviews when it comes to Transfiguration, not that spirits even have access to it.

The Arcana are all encompassing while Purviews are rather limited in scope. An Archmaster of Spirit could re-write Luna's ban, or if he has Spirit 10 could enforce it by slapping her.

>>52902097
>>52902124
Her Change influence is built around the Moon never staying in one state and generally being changing and impermanent, so please explain how this is completely outside of her themes.

If anything, making sure she can still Change as she likes is the MOST thematic application of her themes.

I don't know a lot about Luna.

Somebody fill me in pls.

>>52902168
Or just not be under the moon? Or be in a place she explicitly cannot reach? Like Golden Roads and Chantries?

She isn't omniscient, and not as far reaching as you seem to think.

>>52902200
Okay so what you're saying here is that you can teleport above the moon and she will never find you.

>>52902183
>Her Change influence is built around the Moon never staying in one state and generally being changing and impermanent

When werefags don't even know where her Purviews correspond to. Amazing. That's not the basis for her purview, you dumb fuck. That's her goddamn Ban.

>>52902158
>Madness is a facet of Mind, how does it protect her from something relating to Spirit? Her purview covers Madness, Change and the Moon.
"Imperial" influences don't subdivide things the way the Arcana do, is why. Her effects aren't divided between Spirit and Mind, they're divided between Madness and Change (and the Moon, and Warding, etc etc.)

That's literally the entire basis for why Archmages can do things she can't do.

Madness isn't "this specific subset of Mind-category effects" it's "this specific subset of all effects, irrespective of Arcana, that has to do with Madness (but only Madness)."

>>52902226
You're just proving his point, and another above.

The Arcana are too broad in comparison to Purviews.

>>52902179
The thing is, the Archmaster comes into the fight with "I can do any bullshit I can think of that thematically relates to Spirit (or Mind, or whatever)" and Luna comes into the fight with "I can do any bullshit I can think of that thematically relates to Change (or Madness, or whatever)", and the unstoppable force immediately runs up against an opposing unstoppable force.

Luna wouldn't be able to even consider harming an Archmaster with Spirit 10 via the 'Honorary Rank' Attainment.

They are by definition above her in status.

Mom they're fighting again!

>>52902264
The only part of her purview that has any leeway at all is the Change aspect, and even then it only relates to her actual responses.

By this logic she can change anything that is by definition able to change. This would invalidate the entire line of Werewolf if that were the case.
Her 'Change' is based around life, not any-and-all aspects of it.

>>52902245
The range of effects is broader, but takes longer to pull off, is more difficult to pull off, and is no more powerful.

The Archmaster's infinite subset of potential spells is broader than a Rank 8 spirit's infinite subset of potential "spells", but that doesn't mean much as long as the spirit can think of a counter-effect that relates to their Influence.

Your Spirit Arcanum lets you smack Luna with things that have nothing to do with Madness, Change, Warding, Protection, the Moon, Watchfulness, etc, because her Influences don't cover that.

It doesn't let you automatically beat something her Influences DO cover, and being a Rank 8 spirit she has lots of Influences and they're very broad (not 1/10th of the universe broad, but broad).

>>52902276
Already been brought up. People refuse to concede to canon mechanics.

They must be real far up Luna's smooch to be in so much denial.

>>52902315
>and is no more powerful.

The Arcana are certainly more powerful than the Purviews, sorry. Spirit will bitchslap any-and-all god while the gods themselves can only do so much.

>>52902298
>By this logic she can change anything that is by definition able to change
Broadening the definition of your purview (including from literal to metaphorical), along with adding other purviews, is HOW you advance in Rank.

Luna is at one of the highest Ranks it's possible to attain. She can do anything relating to Change.

>>52902315
kek

Luna has no purview of spirit, she is fucked against an Archmaster of Spirit.

>Warding, Protection,
Not her purviews buddy

>>52902329
>The Arcana are certainly more powerful than the Purviews, sorry.
Please explain how the effects produced by an Imperial Arcanum are more powerful than "This Influence at this rank duplicates the effect of any Imperial Practice, up to and including the most powerful one".

>>52902331
>She can do anything relating to Change.
Yeah, corresponding to her purview. She can't change literally anything.

>>52902353
Duplicating in the sense that it can achieve anything relating to its influence =/= potency of the spell in-question.

>>52902342
>Not her purviews buddy
Please provide a source for where we got a complete and exhaustive list of her purviews, because I can give you a source for Warding being one of them.

>>52902359
>Yeah, corresponding to her purview. She can't change literally anything.
Her purview IS Change!

>>52902315
Half of those aren't her purviews according to Imperial Mysteries.

>>52902353
Spirit on its own should be fairly evident as to how much more powerful the Arcana. Something capable of altering purviews? Yeah, the Arcana are leagues above the gods in terms of potential.

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In all honesty here, I fail to see how 'Change' is going to trump 'Spirit'

The Archmaster could literally change 'Change' to 'does nothing at all' and make Luna night useless.

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Every single one of you faggots are literally killing this general.

>>52902403
Transfiguration also induces permanent effects to boot, meaning the Seeker could have his voice re-write Influences on a whim, while his gestures could dominate the respective gods.

The question of whether or not an Archmage could take on Luna and win comes down to "Yes, if he's willing to go through all the hard work and preparations necessary."

Luna doesn't exactly prepare, as she can do it off the bat. Yet the Archmaster that DOES prepare will win by sheer oomph alone.

>>52902359
Potency is basically irrelevant once you hit Transfiguration, except for the reflexive Stamina+Powerstat roll to resist, and Luna's Influence pool is even more stupidly huge than an Archmage's casting pool thanks to the way Spirit stats work.

Now that I've got the book open, she also apparently automatically gets an exceptional success whenever she uses an Influence, which is handy.

>[on top of their dicepool] assume that a Godlike spirit gains additional, automatic successes equal to its Rank for any roll relating to its purview (or additional successes equal to Rank-5 for anything else).

>>52902368
I bet you think Change means literally anything here. By that logic she should be rank 10.

It also begs the question as to why Helios isn't higher rank than Gaia, considering the sun > earth.

>>52902376
>Half of those aren't her purviews according to Imperial Mysteries.
Imperial Mysteries does not give an exhaustive list of her purviews (or any list of her purviews). Have any of you retards even read the book you're convinced let Mages beat everything automatically?

>>52902436
So why is this even a debate if an Archmaster is capable of re purposing Luna whenever the fuck he/she wants? Assuming he/she casts Transfiguration.

>>52902488
because Luna can do exactly the same tier of effects, just on a smaller subset of concepts.

>>52902488
>>52902526
Also because the Archmaster has to do a ton of prepwork to cast Transfiguration, while Luna just needs to spend a few points of Essence (which she continuously regenerates just by existing)

>>52902526
Luna's purview isn't spirit though, she can't do any of that. She can mimic Transfiguration but there more like rapid fire compared to the mages nuclear bomb.

I'm fine with Archmages working hard to beat gods, but once transfiguration is cast its so easy.

>>52902463
I think the issue here is that "Spirit" just seems so much more powerful than "Change", especially when it can literally nerf Luna to make her defenses nearly useless, by targeting her indirectly.

>>52902545
None of what you said makes any sense.

She has Transfiguration. Mages also have Transfiguration. Luna can do Transfiguration on anything conceptually related to "Change" (or "Madness", or "The Moon", or any of her other purviews), just like the Archmaster can do anything covered under Spirit. She can do the same tier of effects on a different purview.

>>52902570
>I think the issue here is that "Spirit" just seems so much more powerful than "Change"
For a bunch of Magefags you guys are distinctly lacking in imagination.

You can't think of things relating to Change that are just as powerful as what Spirit can do?

Physical transformations are basement-level effects.

>>52902579
>She has Transfiguration. Mages also have Transfiguration. Luna can do Transfiguration
Luna doesn't have Transfiguration, she has something which mimics it. DaveB reminded us of this on occasion. The Imperial Practices are reserved for those with the proper Templates.

>She can do the same tier of effects on a different purview.
Same tier, far more limited. Arguably somewhat lesser, though this really depends.

>>52902593
>You can't think of things relating to Change that are just as powerful as what Spirit can do?

I think you're giving 'Change' far too much credit there, buddy. As another above mentioned, Luna should be Rank 10+ if this were the case.

Why are you idiots using normie Archmages when Ascended Mages eat gods for breakfast?

The Exarchs are responsible (rather required) for the existence of the God-Machine, for instance. Even though they didn't personally create it, or what if they did?

>>52902620
>I think you're giving 'Change' far too much credit there, buddy. As another above mentioned, Luna should be Rank 10+ if this were the case.
That's not even slightly how Ranks work. Read the book.

Rank 8 spirits are absolute bullshit.

>>52902658
Nah, you're just taking things too far for your biases.

Luna should be able to rule the multiverse if you think her purview goes that far, which it doesn't.

>>52902602
>Luna doesn't have Transfiguration, she has something which mimics it. DaveB reminded us of this on occasion. The Imperial Practices are reserved for those with the proper Templates.
She doesn't need Arcana when her Influences can duplicate the effects of all the Imperial Practices. She just does Transfiguration (Change) instead of Transfiguration (Forces), or whatever, and rolls an Influence instead of a spellcasting pool.

>>52902403
>Luna casts Change
>Archmage prepped Spirit
>Archmage turns Change into Dogshit
>Luna proceeds to rain dog droppings from the sky
>Luna is now a rank 1 spirit

>>52902707
You're stating the obvious here. The point was that she doesn't actually have access to Supernal magics and Omens.

>>52902734
Luna having effects that duplicate Transfiguration makes her no less powerful than an Archmage's effects that literally are Transfiguration, and I was responding to people who were saying otherwise.

>>52902422
You can blame a certain werefag (or evangelical pagan?) for antagonizing actual damn mechanics for killing gods.

Better to stay out of this, just like the other threads.

>>52902718
>Archmage can no longer change things because he's redefined the word change
>Siddhi everywhere come rape his ass for breaking several Practices, then fix it.

>>52902776
Luna is arguably more powerful than un-prepared Archmage if you take into account how easily she can use her Purviews.

A prepared Archmage? Luna is done for.

>>52902781
I don't give a shit. It doesn't fucking matter who 'started it'. This threads are literally being chocked to death all because people won't fucking shut the hell up about retarded fictional fights.

>>52902795
>Archmage can no longer change things because he's redefined the word change

Luna isn't a Supernal entity (unless you want her to be, which IM even suggests!) and as such her purview does not determine concepts.

>Siddhi everywhere come rape his ass for breaking several Practices, then fix it.
So only Archmages can save a god from other archmages?

>>52902801
>Luna is arguably more powerful than un-prepared Archmage if you take into account how easily she can use her Purviews.
>A prepared Archmage? Luna is done for.
This whole argument started with people arguing whether or not Luna can do anything to stop the Archmage from making the necessary preparations, IIRC.

>>52902827
She would need to act through proxy to find out the wizard's plans. Luna can't just know things.

Even worse if the Archmage forces her into his Golden Road, or Chantry if he's developed Dominions.

Could an Archmaster of spirit add an autism purview to Luna so she has power over other mages?

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>It's still fucking going

>>52901950
Underrated comment. Spirit Transfiguration is enough to beat Luna in a duel, even easier with Honorary Rank.

>>52901037
Hey is he returning in 2e? I mean he seemed to be a point of contention in 1e, or rather that metaplot as a whole was I guess.

>>52902893
I think so. He was namedropped in one of the system previews back when it was called system sardonyx.

I come back to see this dumpster.

But I will bite.
Luna wins if the Archmaster is under eight Gnosis or unprepared.
The Archmaster wins if amplified with Transfiguration or has ten dots in Spirit.

Really, the Archmaster is only stronger than Luna when it comes to potential and theoretical notions.

>>52902936
This is the entire point the magefaggots were making. I think.

This is bugging me a bit now. Spirit Transfiguration seems ludicrously overpowered if it can hand the god's their asses on a golden platter.

I looked into their (the gods) resistance rules to defend against it, and it stills seems futile to me. It only works if they're being targeted directly and Transfiguration is too infinite for that to ever be the case.

Why is the Pax even needed when Archmasters can just enslave the gods with ease?

Perhaps a houserule where Transfiguration can't actually produce permanent effects.

>>52903097
Not all gods are spirit based, and not all Archmages are going to have nine dots in an Arcanum.

>>52903170
>implying

don't be a faggot. all mages have max dots in whatever we need at a time

>>52903097
>Why is the Pax even needed when Archmasters can just enslave the gods with ease?
Because there are other archmasters who don't want the gods enslaved. Not to mention the exarchs who want the world to work a certain way.

>>52903197
>>52903097
This. The Pax is about MAD stupid.

The Exarchs and every other Archmaster are looking at you thinking "If anyone fucks up my plans I'm going to fuck them up good."

>>52903097
>The Quintessence for Transfiguration is as difficult to find as that for the Threshold Seeking, adjusted for the archmage’s far greater means; quests deep into the Supernal to seek the Oracles or Exarchs, the ruins of a destroyed Watchtower, and the blood of the most potent Supernal natives have all been used in the past.

It's really not overpowered. The preparation involved is basically equivalent to questing for a McGuffin that could kill the god anyway.

>>52903240
But that's just the requirement and mystery to obtain the prerequisites, the practice in itself seems far too strong for my tastes.

Quintessences aren't even used up depending, so you could just use it again and again.

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>>52903305
That's because you don't understand Awakening's lore.

Awakening is based on Gnosticism, among other things, which is a philosophy that says the universe we see and live in is a prison or illusion and the gods are our jailers who we can overcome by putting our minds to it to realize the divine spark within.

A magician/occultist is SUPPOSED to, at the highest levels of magic, overcome the gods and realize the Truth of the cosmos.

Why should Luna, who is a prisoner of the Exarchs and chained to the normal world, be a match for a divine spark which has returned to source, and bathed in the pure light of the Supernal?

>>52903305
>But that's just the requirement and mystery to obtain the prerequisites, the practice in itself seems far too strong for my tastes.
>Quintessences aren't even used up depending, so you could just use it again and again.

Okay, nerf it away then. Its easy enough.

>>52903305
10 dots in an Arcanum is ascension. 9 dots is equivalent to the 10 dot Plot Device power of Vampire disciplines in OWoD.

I love how these threads always devolve back into a "magefags were right" scenario.

Magefags are always right.

>>52903454
>10 dots in an Arcanum is ascension.
You're not forced to Ascend at this point, however. You're able to force your way into the Supernal, but it's entirely up to you.

>9 dots is equivalent to the 10 dot Plot Device power of Vampire disciplines in OWoD.
10 dot Disciplines aren't really considered 'Plot Device' as of Gehenna, but I get what you're saying.
I would also consider Assumption to be Plot Device territory, not Transfiguration.

>>52901950

Never realized how easy it was to take down a rank 8 god as an archmage.

>>52900398
Who the fuck honestly voted Vampire? At least half of the splats in CofD are stronger than Vampires.

>>52903745
Someone to spite Mage, who else? Or someone delusional, I don't know.

Still not as annoying as the above Lunafags.

>>52903743
Gnosis 9 > Rank 8.

A Primal Urge 9 Werewolf could probably beat Luna too.

>>52903782
They're only supporting Luna because she's on the same tier as high-level Archmasters, to be honest. Spite is right.

>magefags give valid mechanics as to how they could roflstomp a god
>"N-NOPE NOT HOW IT W-WORKS"
>Uses Transfiguration to rewrite Luna entirely
>"I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA"

>>52903806
>A Primal Urge 9 Werewolf could probably beat Luna too.
I highly doubt that.

>>52903839
I would counter by saying that Luna also has her own version of Transfiguration, but her purviews aren't that impressive other than the Moon and Madness.

Change is too vague to make any reasonable comparisons, and it only correlates to physical change relating to life and the phases of the moon itself, which concurrently is also her Ban.

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>Killing Luna and risking invoking the Pax
>Not just using Imperial Practices to give her your fetish

Don't kill the gods. Prank them.

Create a high rank Spirit as a patron for Vampires then give him Lawn Chairs as an Influence

Make it where True Fae can break deals if their fingers are crossed.

Make Princess and Genius canon.

>>52903839
NVM. The Urathra stat that gives Spirit Rank is Reknown and only goes up to 5. It'd be trivial to extend the table upwards for a reknown of 37 I suppose but whatevs.

>>52903906
Not that it matters, but her Purview(s) don't actually matter considering none of them would be able to counter the Spirit Arcanum as a whole.

Not even her resistance traits are going to be effective if they're worked around.

>>52901728
>Good luck, she uses Transfiguration to permanently transform you into a newt while you're still gathering Quintessences, because you need preptime and she doesn't
But anon, Transfiguration is a Rank 9 spell. Luna is only Rank 8.

Reminder that it only takes a Spirit 10 Archmage to slap Luna dead.
The four-dot Spirit Attainment 'Honorary Rank' has no upper limit and can enforce Bans unto those of two ranks lower than themselves, meaning Luna is absolutely fucked.

No Transfiguration needed.
The more you know.

>>52903965
Rank 8 spirits can mimic Transfiguration, but it's not as impressive in terms of scale and oomph, and far more limited.

They can cast it with ease though.

>>52903972
Spirit 10 is equivalent to Ascension.

>>52904013
Ten dots is Assumption, which is essentially permanent Transfiguration. You can force yourself into the Supernal at this point, but it's entirely your call.

>>52903999
Alright, my bad. Still, Transfiguration is withstood by Stamina+Gnosis, and needs to in line of sight. Any Archmage looking to take down Luna should be smart enough to stay out of the Moonlight and buff themselves up with some basic Life Magic.

>>52903913
>Make Genius canon.
I'm pretty sure making an army of Abyss corrupted humans violates the Pax.

>>52903906
>and it only correlates to physical change relating to life and the phases of the moon itself
>Luna can only do physical changes
>She's basically just a big rocky werewolf
You people are hilarious.

>>52903944
Curious, where does the book say that arcanum trump spirit purview?
She would still roll stamina, or rather resistance, to defend wouldn't she?

>>52904156
Why hide? Why use an inkling of Life? It would be easier to create effects that don't target her directly or personally, whereby her resistances are nigh useless.

Not too dissimilar to using Ban on a rampaging Uratha.

>>52904225
>She would still roll stamina, or rather resistance, to defend wouldn't she?

If the spell was targeting her? Yes.
If not? No.

>>52903906
>it only correlates to physical change relating to life and the phases of the moon itself
That's not how spirits work. Spirits literally go up in rank by broadening what their purviews apply to. By the time you hit "literally the most powerful spirit rank that actually includes spirits confirmed to exist", you cover all definitions of the word. Any kind of Change is under the purview of a Rank 8 spirit-god with Influence (Change).

>>52904187
>>52904256
>samefag trying desperate to bling on to false biases

Yeaaahhhhhhh

>>52904256
>That's not how spirits work.
I find it ironic that you're accusing others of 'not know how spirits work' when you're the very definition of how they don't work.

>By the time you hit "literally the most powerful spirit rank that actually includes spirits confirmed to exist", you cover all definitions of the word. Any kind of Change is under the purview of a Rank 8 spirit-god with Influence (Change).
I would absolutely LOVE a citation of this.

>>52904187
>>52904247
>>52904256
>>52904282
>>52904308
I'm convinced you're all the same person, to be quite frank.

>>52904226
>It would be easier to create effects that don't target her directly or personally, whereby her resistances are nigh useless.
Because you still need to find the Quintessence. We are talking about what an Archmage has to do before finding one, as Luna isn't going to appreciate your efforts when she find out about them.

>>52904357
>as Luna isn't going to appreciate your efforts when she find out about them.
>when

I think you mean 'if' she finds out about them.

>>52904308
That's literally always how spirits worked? You get spirits of a particular dog, then at a higher rank the spirits of dog breeds, then at a higher rank the spirits of dogs as a whole, then at higher ranks the spirit of all canids, etc. The same would go for Change. Cyclical physical transformation would be a lower ranked spirit than physical change, which is in turn lower-ranked than Change. Luna got Influence over Change in the first place because the moon changes, but that doesn't mean all she can do with it is change phases.

>>52904393
I'm still waiting for the citation on
>"By the time you hit "literally the most powerful spirit rank that actually includes spirits confirmed to exist", you cover all definitions of the word. Any kind of Change is under the purview of a Rank 8 spirit-god with Influence "

>>52902422
If it wasn't for Mage Supremacy, this board would have died out long ago from lack of interest.

>>52904185
Genius aren't Abyss corrupted. If anything I'd make the beings behind Mania elements or programs of the God-Machine.

>>52904393
Have 2e core
>Spirits have Influences that relate to their natures, but that may be used in multiple circumstances — the dog spirit, for example, has Influence over Dogs as a whole, not merely over a particular dog.

And that's for a Rank 4 example spirit. A Rank 8 Spirit with an Influence over Change is going to have Influence over Change as a whole, not over a particular change.

>>52904393
There's a difference between a purview and applying it to literally everything.

Luna should be able to control all conceivable moons in the entire damn universe from the way you're going at this. Which just isn't the case here.

>>52902450
Spirit World follows its own conceptual rules. I guess its because while the Sun is bigger than the Earth, the Earth has more "stuff" on it, so more spirits and Essence. The sun just has plasma, light, and heat, so it has less versatility and less variety of spirits.

>>52904417
>The spirit may achieve *anything related to its
area of influence*, as though it were under the
effect of the Practice of Transfiguration.

Luna's area of influence is Change, not "physical changes" or "moon phases".

>>52902223
Exactly. Teleportation is a lowly 4th rank spell.

I just realized that Spirit Transfiguration would by definition have access to all conceivable purviews.

Unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't this make it the most powerful Arcanum individually speaking?

>>52904454
>Luna should be able to control all conceivable moons in the entire damn universe from the way you're going at this. Which just isn't the case here.
Does she have Influence (Moons) or Influence (Earth's moon)?

If it's the former, and the moon in question is within sensory range, then she absolutely could do whatever the fuck she wants to another moon (although that might piss off its own spirit).

>>52904490
It only has access to them as they apply to spirits.

The spirit arcanum can't produce fire, but it can turn a spirit into a spirit of fire, and then force it to use its influence to create fire for you.

Why are you idiots even arguing about Change when it's not going to prevent an Archmaster from dominating Luna?

>>52904374
>I think you mean 'if' she finds out about them.
Which is why you and whoever you are using as your puppets stay out of the Moonlight.

>>52904247
Spirits resist spells with rank.

>>52904454
Luna isn't in the most powerful class of spirit gods ever actually confirmed to exist for no reason, anon.

>>52904520
Gaia would be above Luna, anon. She may not even exist.

>>52904520
There's two ranks above her and helios. They're powerful but there are stranger more powerful things in the shadow.

Wat about vs an abyssal version of luna, adding abyss purview to her so she could then fuck mages spells with paradox??

>>52904464
That's not the citation I was looking for.

>>52904533
Hence "actually confirmed to exist". Gaia is, ostensibly, even MORE bullshit powerful.

>>52904504
Spirit is all encompassing, I would disagree with you here. The Archmaster could give himself his own Purview, or a great many.

>>52904505
Change won't stop an Archmaster from punking Luna or Helios in a confrontation, but it's as it says.

>>52904549
The citation there and the citation in werewolf core put together give you what you need, if you're willing to rub two brain cells together.

Luna's influence of Change gives her influence over Change as a whole, not just particular changes.

Luna can do anything related to her area of influence.

Her influence is listed as Change. Not moon phases, not physical transformations.

Funny that the God-Machine is above rank 10 according to its own gameline, yet Exarchs are explicitly above it according to the developer.

This begs the question about what rank Ascended Mages are.

>>52904568
If the Archmaster transforms himself into a Rank 8 spirit, complete with Influences, and then uses them?

Sure.

What would communicating with Luna or Helios even be like?

At Spirit 8 you'd be a peer and would have earned the right to speak to them as an equal.

Would you popover to their personal 'place that isn't' with a mountain of essence as a housewarming present before your monthly cribbage game?

>>52904614
Spirit Transfiguration explicitly does 'anything' related to its subject. You don't need to become a spirit to attain your own purview if we go by the rules here.

>>52904627
Oh, sure, if you're using Transfiguration you could give yourself Influences.

Hell, you probably don't even need to do that. Entities could do it.

>>52904614
Transfiguration is infinite, the Archmage would probably turn give himself the capabilities of a rank 10 spirit, not rank 8.

You guys still haven't answered my above question as to why it's thematically appropriate for wizards becoming more powerful than actual fucking gods.

I understand they're playable, but this doesn't seem like good design where you can potentially surpass literally everything other than Supernal natives.

Why does Luna or Gaia even exist when they should have been enslaved by now?

>>52904638
Sure. I was going by the bare minimum necessary rank for "do whatever the fuck you want".

Make yourself a Rank 8 spirit of addition, use it to give yourself more stuff. Including more influences.

And then make 2+2=6, because that also counts as addition.

>>52904432
>Genius aren't Abyss corrupted.
Bardoes are alternate realities that have been proven to be impossible to exist.
Geniuses can build impossible machinery, and can rewrite the laws of physics to conform to their own alternate theories when they become Unmada.
Sound familiar?
Bardos are basically small, "gentrified" Abyssal realms, and the two iconic abilities of a Genius are what the Abyssal Assistant and Nemesis Continuum already do.

Anyway, that's how I house-rule Genius games. "Inspiration" is actually a Rank 9 Abyssal intruder that gives you power in exchange for sanity, and "eats" the failed ideas of human scientists. Havoc is its ban. It fits the cosmology of the setting, and explains why so many Geniuses become Illuminated.

You guys are completely erratic in thought formation.

This thread went from 'Luna vs Archmage' to 'Archmage can just turn himself into a stronger Luna'

>>52904667
Genius and Inspiration certainly aren't inherently hostile/inimical to existing reality.

The fact that their inventions break and their theories fall apart in the face of mundane reality is closer to what happens to Supernal beings than Abyssal.

>>52904660
Again, not all gods are spirit based and not all Archmages are going to have achieved Transfiguration. There's also the Alienated, those Seekers befriending gods, fallen and risen.

There's no question that an Archmage could annihilate a rank 8+ god, it's just not likely to happen and the consequences and peer pressure being a major deterrent.

>>52901988
>>permanent ability to command all spirits with voice and will alone
Sure, but you have to be more creative than that. Couldn't luna change herself to not be able to hear/comprehend other beings and therefore not be able to understand and thus follow those commands?

>>52904771
Yes, but I mean, why would they purposely think it good idea hand out something capable of making better gods? Spirit 9 would let you surpass Luna and Gaia etc just by casting it, replacing them.

This is shitting all over Werewolf as a line. "my splat beats up your splat" pretty much.

>>52904747
are shitty fan made splats joining the argument now? Fuck sake

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>>52904832
>>52904660
I answered it right here.
>>52903363
And you ignored it. The reason the Awakened, at the highest levels, outrank the gods is because that is how Gnosticism, and to a lesser degree Hermeticism, Theosophy, etc, WORKS.

These aren't D&D wizards, overcoming the World and all its attendant archons and demiurges is part of the game's core themes. Learn2occultism.
>>52904667
>>52904747
Gotta agree with this anon. Geniuses make far more sense as something God-Machine related then Abyss related.

>>52904832
>Wizards throwing down gods

This is explicitly part of the lore. Ancient Atlanteans took down the Mother of Fire, who was the same rank as Luna. The Exarchs did this in scores whilst superseding the Supernal with their own tyrannical symbols.

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>>52904852
>Hating on Genius when its lore is better written then three fourths of the nWoD

How about you finger yourself with a rake?

I was originally part of the 'Luna would win' crowd, but you've turned me towards the opposite end.

This isn't a good thing. I never liked Mage to begin with. They're not even monsters, just fucking humans.

Good job pushing away potential players, you amalgam of pus.

>>52904879
>Geniuses make far more sense as something God-Machine related then Abyss related.
Demon's Techgnosticism section and Genius' Dark Mechanical section in the Storytelling chapters of their respective books do read very similarly.

>>52904898

>warmed over Ascension (not even the good parts)
>better

Go roll on another chart or something.

>>52904926
>Good job pushing away potential players, you amalgam of pus.

Was this directed at all of us? I can't tell.

>>52904832
I'll let you in on a secret
You can count on your hands the number of individuals in history who were capable of ever casting spirit transfiguration.

>>52904747
>Genius and Inspiration certainly aren't inherently hostile/inimical to existing reality.
What happens when the light of Inspiration overtakes a Genius? He first becomes an Unmada, a creature that rejects reality and substitutes it with his own delusions, and then an Illuminated, who uses orphan hearts to power his Clockwork Airship.

>is closer to what happens to Supernal beings
Supernal beings get consumed by the "base" nature of the Fallen World, sort of what happens to you if you visit the Lower Depths. Wonders fall apart or go berserk when reminded that they are based on lies, which is why Scientific analysis is a great way to cause Havoc.
I don't headcannon Geniuses as Abyssal because of their mechanics, but their themes and attitudes. Abyssals are hostile because they know that they have no place, that their existence is a sham, so they lash out. Geniuses who are connected to their humanity and don't give in to Inspiration realize that they are not real scientists, and act accordingly. Geniuses who convince themselves they are right and its everyone else who is wrong are antagonists for a reason, and are driven by the same motivations the Abyss is. Neids in particular.

>>52904926
Most of the actual Mage players I know trend toward the "this is how Mages could lose" end of the argument, because surprisingly enough automatically beating everything in the setting makes for a boring game.

Most of the Magewankers in this thread never have played Mage and never will play Mage, and I suspect what just happened to you is part of the goal.

>>52904941
I said lore, not rules. Geniuses are nothing like the Sons of Ether. Geniuses are lunatics whose beliefs are explicitly wrong, not willworkers defining reality heroically. They might be possessed by alien forces or intelligences. Their victories are almost always unmade or rendered hollow, and sci-fi horror hounds them at every turn.

And best of all, they're an actual fucking classic horror trope [Doctor Frankenstein, Mad Scientists] unlike Mages, Geists, Beasts, etc.

>>52904926
If it makes you feel any better, the vast majority of Archmages would die against Luna. Just not the really high-powered one.

>>52904963
>Most of the Magewankers in this thread never have played Mage and never will play Mage
I highly HIGHLY doubt that.

>>52904975
can they beat luna?

>>52904999
Probably not. They have a few high power tricks like time travel that, used right, MIGHT be able to do the deed, but supposing the time cops don't stop them an Archmage probably would.

>>52904926
This entire damn thread is blatant fucking proof that Archmages could 1v1 Luna and win, with nearly affirmed certainty on that.

If you don't like splat inequality, this isn't the place for you. Even the devs think it's a myth.

>>52904667
>>52904747
>>52904879
Most Genius games end up being about "dudes with rayguns take on the world," so cosmology debates are kind of pointless. Its still nice to see fellow fans on the general. I was under the impression tg hates the game.
>>52904898

Did genius ever get re written for 2e? The fluff could use some help as well, at least in my mind.

>>52904994
>Assuming most of /tg/ even plays games at all, let alone the sort who sit in general threads all day every day and wank off their favourite splats
Those of us who are in games just play in our games and don't sit in here arguing with anonymous shitheads for thread after thread.

Where did the werefags go? The consensus is shifting towards Luna losing against an Archmage.

You guys were so close to beating magefags for once.

>>52904999
They could blow up the moon with a big enough Katastofi wonder. Does that count?

>>52904999
Geniuses are more powerful than 1e Mages (and can do a couple of things they couldn't, like time travel and resurrect the dead, as well as just straight-up delete people's powerstat dots and shit), but less powerful than Archmages. They're roughly equivalent to 2e Mages in terms of power level, although they do also have access to the aforementioned "haha say goodbye to the 200 XP you spent on those Gnosis and Arcana dots" power, which is an Archmage thing.

>>52905035
>The consensus is shifting towards Luna losing against an Archmage.
This was always the case, Spirit 9 trumps literally anything Luna can pull.

>You guys were so close to beating magefags for once.
No one has bested Mage cunts since mid-January when things got really bad. Perhaps Aspel was the gatekeeper holding them back. Perhaps we all made a mistake by banishing that creature.

>>52905026
I fucking love Genius. I've never played it, but I really like the lore and setting.

>>52905053
Geniuses are also non-canon and don't actually matter.

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>>52905055

>Perhaps Aspel was the gatekeeper holding them back. Perhaps we all made a mistake by banishing that creature

>>52905062
nWoD is modular, EVERYTHING is non-canon you twat.

You could run a game where the only canon gamelines are Changling, Beast, and Geist, and nobody could say shit.

>>52905100
Nah, Genius is shit. Isn't relevant to anything. Just like any other fansplat.

DaveB wrote Princess by the way. You can't even prove me wrong.

>>52904975

Right, a boring retread of the Sons of Ether without any of the good bits, in a version of Ascension without any of the good bits, tied to a one-note trope where you can't even be bothered to come up with more than one example. That it can't even mechanically create the kind of narratives about hubris and failure that its fans wank over is icing on the cake.

It's mediocre lore with mediocre rules, propped up by "I Freaking Love Science" types.

>>52905110
Every time someone brings up fansplats in the thread the conversation is always derailed by one guy who calls them shit. I'm becoming increasingly convinced it is in fact just ONE GUY who won't shut the fuck up and let us talk about something other then power level fights.

Wouldn't Transfiguration heavily overlap with all other Arcana as a basis for what it does?

Forces would be able to make a force capable of conjuring a force mimicking all other Arcana for instance.

Or Matter having properties exactly the same as all other Arcana.

>>52905082

Consider: the first thread without a major Aspel presence was the first big power wank argument, which has yet to cease since. I guess Aspel was right, they really could just stop coming whenever they wanted to, unless they just went to Twitter or something.

>>52905136
If Luna can use Change on literally anything according to that one idiot. I'm going to say yes. Transfiguration enables you to have all other Arcana at maximum potential.

There. Amazing logic. Create a force of omnipotence while you're at it.

>>52905120
Nah, fansplats are just gay.

>>52905119
I see your opinion. I understand it. I acknowledge it.

Its shit. Please leave and never return.

Rolled 8 (1d20)

>>52905173
You're gay.

>rolling for how gay you are.

>>52904935
>>52904879
The God-Machine's occultism is explicitly based on physical laws, ones that humans don't understand, but they exist, and reliably work.
The Wonders of a Genius do not work. They are lies, animated by an alien energy that becomes hostile when it is reminded of its true nature.
Geniuses are not scientists, occult or mundane, no matter how much they wish they could be. It says so in the rulebook: they are wonderworkers. Wonder workers whose creations and attitudes look suspiciously familiar to a mage. Why else would they become angry when a Genius tries to explain his ideas? The Supernal Soul of the mage recognizes the lies for what they are, and recoils in horror.

>>52905153
>If Luna can use Change on literally anything
Luna can only induce change onto physical things, I believe.

Honest question, is the shitposting going to get better or worse once crossover chronicle comes out?

>>52905213
except change peoples minds and make them mental perhaps too?

>>52905200
>8
Not TOO gay

>>52905225
no
yes
maybe

perhaps?

>>52905203
Except several major factions of Genius are based on the idea that they follow the true laws of reality which just aren't the mundane apparent laws of reality, and the game does nothing to deny this view. This is a Peerage accepted idea, that its possible Geniuses are working with the true laws of nature that simply aren't how mundane "science" happens to work.

Mages recoil from Geniuses because their souls are inhabited by alien horrors, not because their bullshit detectors are going off.

>>52905225
wtf is crossover chronicle?

>>52905060
Its pretty fun, especially coming up with cool Wonder ideas. It gets more than a little unbalanced at higher Axiom levels, so you should probably agree between yourselves to not break the game.

>>52905243
I think its a supernatural who was born a mortal and uses weird pronouns.

>>52905238
Mages recoil from Geniuses because in world they are just larping fags standing next to the fat girls trying to be a Princess

>>52905213
No, the above idiot thinks Change relates to literally everything.

So let's use his/her Transfiguration logic then.
>Forces 9 - I create a force that enables me to use all other Arcana at 10 dots
>Matter 9 - I create a machine capable of creating rank 11 gods
>Life 9 - I am now the Hieromagus and have all Arcana at 10

The 'everything goes' argument is fun.

>>52905255
I'm running Mage the Ascension right now, so I know that feeling.

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Rolled 11 (1d20)

>>52905262
>>52905235
Clearly that die is broken, you are FAR gayer then a mere 8. Lets try that again.

>>52905290
Alright, faglord.

>>52905263
Luna's 'Change' Purview doesn't extend as far as you think. The anon you're referring to was delusional.

Rolled 12 (1d20)

>>52905296
I'm no faglord. I'm a Genius.

Rolling for how much of a genius I am.

>>52905238
>Except several major factions of Genius are based on the idea that they follow the true laws of reality which just aren't the mundane apparent laws of reality.This is a Peerage accepted idea, that its possible Geniuses are working with the true laws of nature that simply aren't how mundane "science" happens to work.
The "true" laws are explicitly that of the Supernal in nWoD. Anything else is either a pale shadow, or a lie.
>Mages recoil from Geniuses because their souls are inhabited by alien horrors
And what kind of alien horror would make a Mage recoil?

>>52905317
>The "true" laws are explicitly that of the Supernal in nWoD
In mage. Not in wod.

>>52905312
No. You don't understand. Change literally means 'change whatever the fuck I want'. So that means Transfiguration is the same.

>Spirit 9 - I now have all purviews of all the gods PERIOD
>Space - I have created my own pocket world where I am omnipotent over all other omnipotents
>Death - I can kill literally anything and any concept.
>Prime - I now have one hundred dots in each Arcanum

I can do whatever the fuck I want because Transfiguration says so.

>>52905317
1. nWoD is modular, so which canon takes priority is entirely up to the ST

2. A program or entity of the God-Machine living inside a human spirit in a symbiotic relationship. Reread the Genius book, it doesn't say Mages horrified of Geniuses, it says that despite both of them being "wonder-workers", Mages are often quite aware that Geniuses are not human.

The God-Machine is a tech-themed entity in the lore who works via physical laws, albeit physical laws that don't quite sync up with modern scientific understanding.

Geniuses are technological themed characters whose powers work on physical laws, albeit laws that don't sync up with scientific understanding [at least in some theories]

It makes more sense thematically and cosmologically to make them GM aligned then Abyss aligned. They'd be WAY more fucked up if they were Abyssal.

>>52905336
nWoD, unlike oWoD, is a world with a consistent, integrated cosmology along all splatlines.

This thread is a fucking MESS

>>52905312
I never saw anyone produce a citation that said Change DOESN'T work the way that guy thought it did, and to his credit he did at least bring out book text.

>>52905413
Yeah exactly. Transfiguration does everything. I can use Spirit 9 to have all Purviews. My first Purview being to beat all other Purviews.

>>52905370
> It seems as if, when dealing with mages, a genius' Jabir becomes a toxic, infuriating thing that drives sorcerers into paranoid rages. (pg 395)
Mages are not happy when Geniuses try to explain themselves.
>They'd be WAY more fucked up if they were Abyssal.
>Beholden
>Illuminated
>Unmada
>Larvae
Geniuses who fail to hold onto the Obligations that tie them to their humanity become very evil very fast.

>>52905440
I know you're being exaggerative to prove a point, but isn't this something an Archmaster of Spirit could do?

Purviews can relate to anything, so why not a Purview of 'bests, nullifies and counters all other Purivews' ?
This alone would make all godly encounters a cakewalk. The gods wouldn't even be able to fight back.

Mage was a mistake.

>>52905462
You make a convincing case, I suppose you COULD make them Abyssal if you wanted, but I still think GM works better for them.

Anyone have a Rio pdf?

>>52905370
Also
>albeit physical laws that don't quite sync up with modern scientific understanding
But they are still laws that are found naturally in the material world.
>Geniuses are technological themed characters
Plenty of Abyssal Intruders are also technologically/"scientifically" themed. Like the Nemesis Continuum, or the Abyssal Helper. The GM has strange and occult laws, ones that don't really align with that of Geniuses (whens the last time you used Cover or made Pacts as an Inspired?). It is abyssal intruders who do the impossible, aping the natural world.
> albeit laws that don't sync up with scientific understanding
Laws that have been thoroughly debunked.

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>>52901091
dat reprint list
>Enkil Cog
>Ashur Tablets
>The Unmasking
>Monastery of Shadows
>Carlton Van Wyk
>Liquidation
>Heart of Nizchetus
>Unleash Hell's Fury
>Deep Song
>Target Vitals

>>52905531
Yeah, it is a personal preference when it comes down to it, since the author leaves it open ended.
Thanks to the anon who brought up Geniuses originally, fan splats deserve some love.

>>52905547
>Debunked

Maybe to your primitive understanding.

The Lemurian Grand Epistemology connects all individual Lemurian beliefs through quantum mechanics.

I bet you don't even know time is a cube.

>>52905547
This makes it sound like Inspiration is the conduit to unreality, but has managed to achieve a certain level of reality itself, so that it's not necessarily inimical to the rest of reality. The products of Mania could be considered to be of Abyssal origin, but they're cut off from the Abyss, so they can't "renew" their unreality if attacked by actual reality, hence Havoc.

>>52905392
I can't tell if this is supposed to be bait.

>>52905514
>Purviews can relate to anything, so why not a Purview of 'bests, nullifies and counters all other Purivews' ?

Spirit 9 would accomplish this, yes. You really do wonder how people can even back up Luna when there are wizards capable of doing this.

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What can you tell me about the Black Hand?

10/10 thread

Truly the magefags are masters at ruining threads when someone disagrees with them

>>52905663
Practice of Unmaking m8.
ES overcomes Resistance

How did all of this start?

>>52905861
Well many years ago, a man named moot created an image board with the goal of sharing images and discussion about anime...

>>52905861
Someone mentioned that an Archmage could kill Luna.

Resulted in screeching autist werefags.

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Can we just end this and come to a common consensus? My god.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12828643

>>52905861
Mage fags are being mage fags. You'd think they would make their own thread so they dont need to inhabit the same one as the so called lesser splats, but here they are as always

>TFW you will never play a funny cross-splat game of Genius: the Transgression and Task Force: Valkyrie.
>Cooperation between US and UK Hunter groups is breaking down, and one of TF:V's only British cells has broken down completely.
>Attacked by a well-fortified Lemurian Unmada, operating out of a Bardo.
>His goal is to finally reestablish Lemuria's stranglehold on the global order, capitalizing on weakened Hunter groups and the general disorganization of the Peerage.
>Only survivors of the decimated TF:V cell are forced to contact the few Navigators trusted by their command in the US.
>They're literal cowboy cops, but they're deadly and effective.
>Barely real science and barely fake science join forces to take down a global conspiracy, hopefully not breaking too many things in the process.
>That's the vibe I got from this, at least.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfU9dWyC3K4
>Is this is a good example of how Genius gameplay should look, assuming we add some Wonder creation scenes and nobody is low Obligation?

>>52905861
Magefags lay out bait, retards snap it up like candy. And then they have the gall to be salty when they don't win.

>>52906204
>when they don't win.

How did the magefags lose, exactly?

>>52906259
No, anon. The retards lose.

>>52906262
This is 4chan. Aren't we all retarded?

>>52906279
No.

>>52906309
Do you deny your inner retard? It's not like you're gay or anything.

>>52906333
But I am gay.

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>>52906608

>>52903363
>Awakening is based on Gnosticism

And it fails. Horribly. By having Archmages still give any kind of a fuck about what happens on the Fallen world.

Mage would be a far better game line if the Archmages just fucked off to some higher plane after ascending.

Gnosticism isn't about getting more powerful than the Demiurge so you can kill him.

It's about escaping the Demiurge's prison and ascending beyond it all.

As it is now, Archmages become like the demiurge themselves.

Archmages damage the core theme of Gnosticism in Mage and lead to this boring as fuck "Mages win against everything!" arguments for 200 threads in a row.

At this point you don't even need an archmage to defeat Luna himself. Just ask the spirit of the Archmages' circlejerk to do it. It's easily rank 10 by now.

>>52906894
>I don't understand Archmasters, the post

>>52906915
>I don't understand Gnosticism, the thread

But what if like,
what if a slasher just like,
stabbed a mage.

>>52906894
Becoming an archmage isn't ascending

>>52906948
Nice try anon, but you can't really deflect from the fact that you misunderstand Archmages. Becoming an Archmage isn't Ascending, and Archmages generally do stop giving fucks about mundane society after the become an Archmage. The ones who still have sense and haven't become totally detached from the normal world due to their high Gnosis give fucks about the Fallen World because they still live there and they might have Obsessions pertaining to it.

But once a Mage actually Ascends they do stop giving fucks about the Fallen World. The Exarchs only give enough fucks to prevent anyone they don't like from Ascending, and that's more along the lines of giving fucks about the Supernal.

Also the only arguments that Archmages have been used to win are the Caine v Archmage and more recently this Luna v Archmage business. The rest have just been won with normal Mages.

A few more points from your earlier post:
>Mage would be a far better game line if the Archmages just fucked off to some higher plane after ascending.
They literally do, according to the actual meaning of Ascension and not what you seem to think it is. Ascending is literally the act of fucking off to the Supernal Realms.

>Gnosticism isn't about getting more powerful than the Demiurge so you can kill him.
That's not the goal of Ascension in the game. Exarchs have won, that part is game over.

>It's about escaping the Demiurge's prison and ascending beyond it all.
This is the actual goal of Ascension in the game.


Jesus Christ read the book if you're going to bitch about the game, anon.

>>52907092
>Ascending is literally the act of fucking off to the Supernal Realms.

Dave has explicitly stated numerous times that the Supernal Realms are not a place, and you can't go there.

It's why he hates Changeling for its "Is Arcadia the same? Who knows!"

>>52907135
Holy shit anon.

Yes, Dave is right. You can't go to Stygia in the same way that you would open an Iris to the Underworld. But I'm right too.. To go into further detail beyond "fucking off", to Ascend is to become part of the Supernal and reside there as a living symbol.

What did you think Ascension meant? Becoming an Archmage?

>>52907135
Ascension is the ultimate act of 'fucking off', anon.

>>52907135
>you can't go there
They explicitly fucking can.
It is an essential part of Threshold Seeking.

>>52907415
You can go to the Supernal, just not in a physical sense. The Realms aren't a place more so than the code of all Creation.

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>>52906894

Just ignore the awakening fags, they are salty and looking to establish dominance since their lord and savior abandon them to make a shitty cherion group rippoff game.

>>52907697
You speak blasphemy

>>52900544
> But only a drooling moron would ever have two splats using the rules from their respective books in the same game.
>CofD
>Created exactly for this purpose
Why was CofD even created then?

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>>52907697
>>52907752

Ascend... Kill the Old Gods... Take your rightful place as a new Exarch!

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What's the name of the jewelry that this Ravnos vampire is wearing?

>>52906894
> >Awakening is based on Gnosticism

> And it fails. Horribly. By having Archmages still give any kind of a fuck about what happens on the Fallen world.

> Mage would be a far better game line if the Archmages just fucked off to some higher plane after ascending.

> Gnosticism isn't about getting more powerful than the Demiurge so you can kill him.

> It's about escaping the Demiurge's prison and ascending beyond it all.

> As it is now, Archmages become like the demiurge themselves.

> Archmages damage the core theme of Gnosticism in Mage and lead to this boring as fuck "Mages win against everything!" arguments for 200 threads in a row.

There is a theme in esoteric stuff that there is a catch on path to ascending. Its called power. When you start getting to much magical powers it means you are no longer on the pass to ascension.

>>52908641
Which is why the 10th dot in an Arcanum is only one method of Ascension, and in many ways in fact the hardest.

>>52908282
Stolen jewelry

Does anyone remember what that indie WoD rip off game was called?

>>52910305

Wastelands of Desolation?

What kind of spell would an Archmage use to transform a Gulmoth into a normal (but probably insane) human being?

>>52910571
Become an Aswadim and learn to wield the 11th arcana.

>>52910571
Something involving Prime and Life, I imagine, but this screams bad idea to me. Incorporating anything from the Abyss into the world is bound to end badly, no matter how thoroughly you think you sanitized that Gulmoth.

>>52910571
Does this look like a metaphysics classroom?

>>52910888
What book is that?

So, uh, new thread?

>>52912097

>>52912107

>>52910305
Vampire Undeath?

>>52912104
>>52912113

Well, shit. I'll delete mine then as soon as it lets me.