Would dumb but strong races like orcs or beastmen be able to

>>52890600
The general population of Florida's Swamps seems to suggest so.

>>52890600

>>>google

>>52890600
Arcanum has orcs being recruited for practically slave labour inside the industrial complex within the city of Tarant.

Dumb people didn't die out, and neither did civilizations that didn't develop firearms for themselves, so my guess is that they'd be fine.

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>>52890600

Anon we have an entire continent of dumb but strong people who are positively thriving with guns.

>>52890638

I wouldn't call what happened to Africa over last 200 years fine.

>>52890640

Now imagine if Africa didn't get all those free guns and ammo from Soviets.

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You'd just get these guys.

>>52890675
So, they end up getting them from the USA, because we have a bad habit of funding people who later turn into terrorists that attack our shit for some reason?

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>>52890675
Done.

>>52890600
Just look at Africa.

>>52890695
Or Brits. Or Dutch. Or Chinese. Or French. Or Saudis.

>>52890638
>>52890640

The difference is Africa wasn't a great enemy humanity was fighting for thousands of years. Meanwhile in most fantasy settings orcs are a hated enemy.

>>52890654
They survived. Plus, orcs and beastmen have a few advantages over people.

You do realise guns replaced bows and crossbows because guns were so easy to use and maintain that even a fucking retard could use them?

Guns would probably tip the balance of power from races like dwarves and elves towards orcs and beastmen.

>>52890749
And the enemy of my enemy is a good place as any to dump some guns to get them to do the fighting for me.

>but what if they turn them on you

With what ammo and artillery?

Until you enemy gives them ammo and artillery to use against you.

>>52890764

You need to be able to produce them. You need real industry to produce firearms and ammo.

And just try to imagine orc line infantry calmly loading muzzleloaders.

>>52890764
What sort of philosophies would different races have towards gun designs. Like would elves prefer marksmanship and accuracy with a few powerful hits? Would dwarfs like short, rapid fire guns with penetration, maybe with a bullpup design?

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>>52890834
>You need real industry to produce firearms and ammo.

>>52890834
The existence of rifles does not automatically mean the implementation of line infantry that developed in Europe. Hell, the timeframe between the beginning of gun manufacture and the implementation of the stereotypical disciplined line infantry formation is fairly long.

>>52890870

You do know that even those AK-47 you see so often are not produced in Africa right? They are either Chinese or Russian.

You need precision equipment to produce guns.

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>>52890600
My current setting actually has most of the world dealing with the explosion of the industrial era and new, better technologies for armies. About the only race not modernising is the fucking Dwarves, who live in mountains too much of a bastard to run roads or the really early-model railroads through. Even then, about half of the Dwarves are making mad bank supplying iron, coal and other essentials to the industrialising nations and pioneering inventions such as a steam pump for clearing waterlogged mines. Of course it helps that they've had the coke blast furnace for about 300 years more than anyone else...

The Orcs and other 'savage' races had easy pickings at first, as the increased wealth of the kingdoms and republics they bordered made for profitable raiding. Goods could be sold on to other nations; rivals would hire Orc mercenaries with their increased wealth; and greater crop yields from windmills, crop rotation, common land enclosures and so on made for greater populations, which the Orcs could then enslave.

The target kingdoms however, soon had had enough of the Orc problem, along with each other and professional standing armies came into being, first with traditional weapons and then with muskets. The Orc tribes suffered hugely for the first 30-50 years after professional armies really hit their stride and they retreated into the frontier territories they had traditionally held. Orcs were only occasionally seen in 'civilized' lands for the next generation or so and usually in more lawless areas. Then the nations started expanding, seeking more resources and wealth, both on other continents and in the frontiers of their own. That's when they realised the Orcs had not been sitting idle in the meantime.

>>52890600
Here's the thing:
Guns are a really, really dumb weapon to use. If you know how to clench the muscles in your finger, you know how to fire a gun.

Now the truth is that races with no infrastructure will not have the same abundance of firearms, and not having the proper education on how to handle a firearms will usually leave them neglect of maintenance and lead to many accidental deaths and injuries. As such, a firearm will be considered a magical thunderstick with a violent mind that must be appeased first before operating it, and thus be reserved to a small circle of nobility if not outright religious figures.

As such, they would still be forced to live a life at the edge of civilisation. Now if nations with infrastructure and engineering knowledge supplied them with weaponry, chances are orcs would lay waste to entire empires within weeks.

>>52890967
Over the intervening years, the tribes had formed into three large power blocs, each ostensibly republican and industrialised thanks to black-market machines, manuals and slaves they'd purchased in the meantime. The Orcs were in fact, the first real nation-states and reacted poorly to the settlements in their territory. After ransacking the initial border forts and townships, they went on the offensive. An Orc's size allowed them to employ larger weapons; heavy shields and other innovations that the other kingdoms and the like simply hadn't developed. Overall, their technology was no more advanced, but the Orcs natural advantages as shock troopers basically made them the scourge of the world. Many of their enemies collapsed into civil war as they attempted to reform to counter the Orc threat and those that did not faced a highly-organised and talented foe, armed with similar weapons to them, rather than the savage and disunited tribes they had expected.

My players are a collection of Chosen Men from a predominantly Elven kingdom, trying to blunt the Orcish advance into their homeland by any means necessary. They aren't expected to fight in the line of battle, but then given Elves don't much like to do that anyway, the whole army is mostly focused on fire-and-maneuver tactics, skirmishing, dragoons and horse artillery. The players operate mostly behind Orcish lines, sabotaging bridges, pillaging supply trains, assassinating leaders and ambushing small patrols to try and buy their lords time to bleed the enemy dry. Really it's a race to see what runs out first; the Elven space to fall back, or the Orcish will to pursue the war.

>>52890966
>AK
>precision equipment

lol

And you do realize people been making firearms with simple tools for the better part of the 20th century. Khyber Pass is just one place where simple tools are used to make shitty copies of guns.

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>>52890966
To produce a modern rifle, sure, but i'm getting the feeling lots of people are getting very different ideas from the OP. The earliest depiction of a gun is from the early 12th century I think. Orcs can usually smith at least to a functional degree in plenty of settings, can they not? Who is making all those double ended orcish axes if not orcs? Unless other races are producing weapons specialised just for orcs and selling them to them, in which case manufacture of guns isn't the issue anyway.

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>>52890625
arcanum makes me feel like an idiot.

any tips to an idiot trying to progress in acanum

i cant even combine thing to craft? nothing happens when i click anything do i need a recipe or something?

>pic related

>>52891037
this and i love it

A+ good sir

>>52891170
Crafting is largely a waste of time

>>52891196
aa okay thanks i'll just ignore it then, any other tip?

>>52891107

You obviously know nothing about guns. You do realize every bullet and casing must be exactly the same size right? Or how hard it is to produce a rifled barrel?

>>52890966
>>52891292

You fucking retard. You obviously don't know anything about guns.

Do you think people just suddenly invented machine guns when they discovered gun powder?

>>52891292
We've been able to make modern metal cartridges for almost 200 years and rifling for way longer than that.

>>52891122

Muskets are not hard to produce. But when we get to even early breechloaders it becomes much harder. They are actually more expensive to produce than most modern rifles designed for easy mass production.

>>52891285

Magic is overpowered.

Kill every *halfling you see, without exception.

>>52891349
>>52891375

And we needed industrial revolution and precision equipment for that.

Before that rifled guns were so expensive only nobles could afford them.

>>52891292
I was in the army and studied a year to be a gunsmith, so no, I don't know shit. I also haven't read anything about all the various shops that have made counterfeit guns with very simple tools around the world.

>>52891406
>we needed industrial revolution and precision equipment to make rifled barrels
>before that rifled barrels also existed, making my point kind of hard to decipher

>>52891383
LOL casual halfling genocide, i'll keep that in mind.

also i bought an old flintlock but i cant equip it and the game doesnt tell me why? my half-ogre hands to big maybe my perception is to low? my str is 12 so i should be fine

>>52891412

Those very simple tools still need to be accurate down to less than 0.5mm.

Something easy for chinese farmers of today, but not an orc who only knows how to make a crude axe.

>>52891442

They existed but were insanely hard and expensive to manufacture. And you really need precision equipment to make cased ammunition. There is no way around that.

>>52890600
At least with kobolds it leads to a bloody communist revolution against their dragon rulers.

>>52891122
At least with tolkien, orcs were associated with the mechanisation of war and guns would probably fit for them more than anyone else.

>>52891406
You do realize that the Afghans were famous for their rifles barrels right? It's part of why they made such a mess of the British colonial forces who had smooth bore guns.

>>52891550
Not him, but Tolkien orcs only vaguely resemble the "standard" fantasy orcs anyway. They certainly don't fit OP's "dumb but strong", since they're generally closer to hobbit sized than human sized, even "huge" orcs are "Almost" as big as humans.

>>52891406
pffff ahahahaha no.

rifling a barrel wasn't that hard if you had access to an ancient piece of lost technology known as the auger. The problem with rifles was before people became less stupid and figured out the minie ball they thought you had to pound the bullet down the barrel to force it into the rifling grooves, which made the rate of fire for rifled guns hot garbage. Smoothbores were used by everyone because they fired several times as quickly.

>>52890600
The Zulu managed to figure out guns, at least partially. Orcs are generally less intelligent.

>>52891562

Don't pretend that Jezails were common mass produced weapons. Especially rifled ones.

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>>52890600
It depends. Are their intelligence levels in literal retard level or are they able to use and maintain firearms?
Most settings have them being able to make their own metal equipment, so simple firearms like handgonnes could be used.
Handgonnes are also durable enough and conveniently shaped to use as a bludgeon.
Hell, being stronger than average, they could use ridiculous calibers and single handedly carry small cannons with grapeshot.
Bombs would be also cheap and simple things. An orc grenadier could be a thing.

Of course if dumb races are so dumb they can't forge a tube (or carve one from wood, yes you read that right), or use metal at all, and being incapable of mixing saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur, they would be in deep shit, unless supplied by some more intelligent evil race.

>>52891457
So you classify anything more complex as making a crude axe "real industry"?

>tools still need to be accurate down to less than 0.5mm

And what sort of laser guided, computer driven machinery do you think that is? You think a modern casing factory machines each shell individually?

>>52891478
>They existed but were insanely hard and expensive to manufacture.

Yes, and?

>And you really need precision equipment to make cased ammunition.

So basically anything we had around Napoleonic era is "precision".

>>52891715
>moving the goalpost

>>52890764
And people like Shaka still refused to use them because they preferred spears.

>>52891735
>Napoleonic era
>cased ammo

Sure thing dude.

The first mass produced cased rifle cartridge is from 1867. And it had tremendous reliability problems in the first two decades of it's use.

>>52891772
Anon, you do realize cased ammo is not a new thing, just because it didn't see widespread use, right? Breechloading cartridges were patented in 1812. First rimfire metallic cartridge invented in 1845. .22 short was made in 1857.

>it had tremendous reliability problems in the first two decades of it's use

Specifically due to the lack of precision in making the casing?

>>52891593
The modern "standard" fantasy orc is fundamentally inspired by tolkien. Before him it was all just various non-specific ogres and shit instead of a specific group of creatures.
Stuff like warcraft has inspired the whole "noble savage" element though.

>>52890600
>would natives be able to cope with firearms or would they go extinct?

>>52890764

Guns killed warrior cultures. They were the great equalizer. Suddenly your veteran knight could easily get killed by a peasant.

>>52891478
What fucking fantasy setting has gun tech above muzzle load and blunderbusses?

>>52892063

If muzzleloaders exist so do breechloaders. Breech loading existed since the early days of firearms it was just too expensive for mass production.

>>52891735
>0.5mm anything
>requiring laser guides or computer aided manufacturing

Just stop arguing, you can get 0.5mm tolerances easily by hand.

>>52892063

Warhammer?

>>52891982
Tolkien only really inspired the "universally bad martial race" part of Orcs. Pretty much everything about how orcs look and fight comes from Warhammer or Warcraft. Tolkien orcs aren't green, they aren't bigger than humans, they're not physically stronger than humans, they're quite capable of using magic, maybe even better than humans; they're mechanically adept, and they're mostly ambush type warriors, not chareg and fight frontally warriors.

>>52892105
Only if it's a precision hand of modern industry.

>>52892138
W-what?

>>52890843
Possibly. Could be cool, giving most fantasy races firearms that suit them, though getting rid of (or even coexisting with) bows would probably annoy some people

>>52890843
I'd imagine halflings would use something like a coil spring gun to fire random shit at people and gnome weaponry would be...well...gnome weaponry.

>>52892062
Depends on what you mean by "warrior culture". The Japanese loved matchlocks, but are generally people's first go to "muh honour/warrior culture" nation historically, although that's generally based on romanticised misconceptions of the samurai anyway. Besides, that's not really true, plate armour was service-ably resistant to firearms for a long time.

The real problem is that OP actually asked a really broad question that could ahve just been answered with "depends on the setting" like usual. Depends on the technology and use of firearms on the battlefield we are talking about, depends on the political, economic and cultural idiosyncrasies of the setting, depends on just how big and dumb we are talking about. A setting defined by huge war between "civilised races" and orcs/beastmen/whatever where one side developed firearms would have a very different response to a setting where these "dumb but strong" races are free to move about, or perhaps serve as mercenaries for or simply exist on the fringes of states that manufacture and use firearms.

If you want colonial forces employing beastmen auxiliaries as grenadiers then you can write a setting to support that, and if you want a "focres of good with gatling guns vs tides of greenskins" you can write that too. All you are going to learn from real world examples of exposure to firearms is that a lot of different shit can happen.

>>52890843

Elves would probably like lighter calibers and sniping. Probably would be the first to work on repeating guns too.

Dwarves would probably like close range guns like shotguns or lever action heavy rifles because tunnels.

>>52891170
Magic wins the game. Hard. Level 1 Necro spell plus turn based and high Dex. can take you from start to finish, if you wanna be cheap.

Crafting requires you to learn recipes, either through leveling (in your character sheet, click the little gear button in the upper right area), or by picking up and learning recipes in-game. And once you learn a recipe, you can't just click on the items to craft, you have to open the crafting menu from the button on the bottom bar on your screen. It's the most fun option, because why the fuck else are you playing a steampunk game? But it's not the strongest. Molotovs can carry you through early game, and dynamite is fun to play with. Also, the endgame area has a bunch of tech recipes that you can't get anywhere else, and if you get there on a cheap-ass mage build (like I did my first time through), you won't get to play with any of it.

Also, if you haven't yet, get Drog's Unofficial Patch. Fixes a lot of buggy shit that Sierra never bothered to deal with. Also, if you want to go tech, try out the Carcanum mod, which gives you a car for fast-travel. As a techie, you don't get access to teleport (you can't even use scrolls if you invest too much in tech), and even with the map, walking to each destination is tedious and annoying.

>>52892285
Why repeating guns for elves?

I'd think the dwarves would be among the first to develop explosives (because mining and petards), but guns might be a while - firing in a tunnel is really not ideal.

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>>52892408
okay thanks alot man! i'll do just that, and i rather go tech and maybe replay again with magic

>>52892485

Elves love rapid fire.

>>52892285
Lighter calibers and sniping don't really go hand in hand.

Shotguns don't really make ideal primary weapons. And at short ranges and enclosed spaces, getting to shoot and getting to shoot a lot is priority, which is why SMGs and carbines are more favorable. I've seen arguments for the Israeli use of the Tavor being the enclosed spaces needing a short weapon, while a bullpup still retains a long barrel for shooting outside of cities. With armour (if you're fighting in enclosed spaces with limited cover) penetration is also a thing to consider. While big boom guns might be iconic to dwarfs, following their environment and fighting style, adopting a short gun that shoots fast and is capable of penetrating armour, seems more up their alley than a pump/lever action guns with big bullets. I could imagine early automatic weapons era dwarfs making heavy use of Soviet style SMG platoons, and US style trench shotguns for specialized assault troops, while short repeating carbines might be the favorite of regular infantry. With a folding bayonet that is not attached to the barrel, enabling its used without hindrance to accuracy.

Elves in their quality over else mentality would probably prefer full length battle rifles for precision shots over distance and larger caliber bullets would also work in forests, as foliage would have less effect on the trajectory of the shot. Their training would most certainly put emphasis on individual marksmanship and they'd probably be among the first to adopt low power optics and DMRs.

I could almost see halflings doing German style machine gun centered squads. Their basic guns are mostly for self-defence while majority of the squad's firepower is in their machine gun that everyone in the squad takes part in carrying and supplying with ammo. Makes up for their shorter stature and inability to use big, powerful weapons on their own. Light mortars would also be a good way to increase the firepower of a halfling unit.

>>52892745

Large bore early cartridges were not very good for long range shooting. Elves would probably quickly go down to something around 7mm.

>>52892675
That doesn't mean an individual has to rapid fire. Brits were very skilled with their SMLEs (which also was quite fast to fire, since the bolt locked at the back, meaning shorter bolt travel, meaning faster cycling, and you didn't have to move your head out of the way, enabling you to keep a sight picture while cycling). I've read remarks that a disciplined British unit could provide suppressing fire on a target equal to a machine gun.

>>52890834
>orcs produce no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones
I think they'd do just fine.

>>52892817

Orcs never produce anything clever. It's goblins who do that.

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>>52892817
>orks produce no beautiful things, but they make many cleaver ones

FTFY

>>52892858
>warcraft
LEL

>>52893047

And Warhammer. And DnD. And almost every other fantasy setting.

>>52892814
That is most certainly bullshit. The claim that they could fire suppressive fire comparable to a machine gun. Not the other stuff.

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>>52893047
>implying this isn't the peak of military technology

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>beastmen with guns
Well, gnolls will scavenge and use anything from their slain targets, so it's not unlikely that they'd probably adapt to using firearms pretty quickly.

>>52893114
He never mentioned the size of the unit or model of machine gun.
I'd easily believe that a few dozen brits could outperform a fairly poor machine gun.

>>52893148

Gnolls and orcs goibg plains indian seems idea. Skilled riders firing with rifle from mount, with back up side arms, even a bow and hatchets.

>>52893085
>>52893120
>non-tolkien/tolkienoid fantasy
LEL

>>52893085
Pathfinder goblins are gibbering idiots, and other editions aren't much better.

>>52893244

Because Tolkien orcs were so good at technology.

Melkor was kidnapping elves for slave labor because his orcs were trash at more complex stuff.

>>52892858
Someone doesn't know his Tolkien.

>>52893284

They don't get penalties to Int though. Orcs do.

>>52893291

Go read Silmarillion again because obviously you forgot a lot.

>>52893317
Like the part where the Sindar need to have the dwarves come in to even up their tech of "ironworking" with the orcs, and how the Silvans never make it that far and get the shit stomped out of them, and the only elves who are "technologically" advanced are the ones who got lessons from the Valar?

>>52893285
>Melkor was kidnapping elves for slave labor because his orcs were trash at more complex stuff.
[citation seriously needed] Melkor always seemed to be kidnapping elves and enslaving them for the Evulz, not because he actually needed their efforts.

Meanwhile, in things like the Fall of Gondolin, Orcs have fucking mechanized tranpsorts. Even if you don't count that as canon, they have metalworking, mining, and tunneling at least on par with anyone else.

>>52893189
We'll. Okay. That's fair. But that seems like the infantry combat equalivant of 100000 lions vs the Sun.

>>52891765
Probably off topic but Shaka himself did try to acquire plenty of firearms for the obvious reasons. Then he died and it was his brothers or something that started that war with the british.

>>52893114
>The claim that they could fire suppressive fire comparable to a machine gun.

Brits trained on rapid firing their guns with accuracy, hitting a 12" target at 300 yards 15 time in a minute. Record is 38 hits. In 1914, during the Battle of Mons, advancing Germans thought they were under fire from machine gun batteries due to the volume of fire from British rifles.

>>52890695
>Arms are easily traded for natural resources in impoverished countries
>People inevitably turn against perceived colonial powers
Shit's pretty easy to understand, anon.

>>52893208
>Gnoll plains indians
They would be a terror with lever guns

>>52890966
To make them good guns yes, in general no. If you go to some museums you can find home made guns which are not as accurate but can still be used to kill people if used correctly.

>>52896763

Even if we assume orcs (or more likely gobs) could make those they will still be far worse quality than correctly produced military guns.

And training is actually very important for early firearms based armies. You need discipline and countless hours of fast loading training.

>>52892062
>Guns killed warrior cultures.
Bullshit

>>52892062
No you fucking retard. Guns were unable to kill knights up to the late 18th century. For fucks sake, people had to use small-caliber cannons to blow dents and holes in full-plate.

>>52897087

Are you completely retarded?

Yes, good quality plate could stop bullets at medium ranges. But they did shit vs a volley. And at close ranges they were useless. And even if they stopped a bullet the hit energy alone was enough to break ribs.

>>52890600
Sub-saharans and abbos are still around, aren't them?

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>>52892285
Dwarven /k/ would be hilarious.

>>52890749
>africa
>humanity

>pick one and only one

>>52890600
Why? It's not hard to use and take cear of a gun, and sooner or later someone is going to sell you the thing. If anything they would thrive and become the perfect shock troopers. Look at the marines, 99% of the guys in em would be considered orcs, and yet they are still here

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Orcs deserve FREEDOM!

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>>52892138
Here's some watch internals from 1837 - Some of these gears were only a millimeter big, and less than a millimeter thick.

>>52897939

The difference is with guns barrels need to be exactly the same size and ammo needs to be exactly same size over millions of copies or you will have a lot of fun with jams and misfires.

>dumb but strong

In the blackpowder era, yes. Imagine ogre snipers toting wall-guns.

>>52890966
>You need precision equipment to produce guns.

Lol go tell /k/ that, they love a good laugh

If you are worried about bore diameter being consistent across a large number of guns, a smith could use a mandrel to form it. Rifling has been cut with hand tools and a little improvisation, as have chambers.
That will all get you into the "good enough" area, not necessarily perfection.

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>>52892138
>precision hand of modern industry
???

>>52890966
>You need precision equipment to produce guns
Someone post the ak47 broom

>how would factions without the ability to produce X get it
>Y gives the weapons to X for Z reason

This thread is about 110 posts too long.

>>52898706
If you're producing weapons on a modern scale sure. The few dozen orc warriors of the woolaboola tribe don't need anywhere close to that amount of arms and can produce ammo for specific guns.

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I much prefer the smart but average strength beastmen to have figured out guns. French wolves with a penchant for swashbuckling are awesome.

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>>52893148
Inbred hillbilly gnolls lurking in the foothills?
More likely than you might think!

Give um crudely made muzloaders laded with whatever nasty shit they can find. Rancid bone shards, malformed bullets spat out at meals, small bits of chain, broken glass, fuckin handful of rocks or whatever.

or scavenged higher quality munitions with more limited ammo and primative backup weapons.
Gnolls seem like a good fit to have gettorific homemade guns, made by skilled slaves of course. Slamfire shotguns mounted on the butt of spears, gratuitous pepperboxes that'd snap a human wrist or break a collarbone, single large bore rifles that are pretty much ultralight cannons loaded with grape shot, chains or fist sized roundballs. They wouldn't be first in the arms race but they'd sure as hell play catch up and play it for keeps.

>>52890749
Well, Islam still exists in spite of centuries of conflict with Europe and a widening technology gap.

>>52898918
It was a shovel

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!

>>52890600
Child soldiers who have received no education of any sort can operate a gun. I don't see why orks couldn't use them as well.

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>>52890600
>not understanding that fantasy settings have magic which would throw the whole "guns > everying" for a loop

besides beatmen and orcs both throw themselves at their enemy without thought of dying so it would be like the drugged up zuluu niggers or whatever they were. if they outnumber the heros by a ton they make a hard fight but eventually lose

also warhammer fantasy, which is one of the best fantasy settings, has guns and orcs just fine

guns actually balance a lot of fantasy setting by giving martial people an answer to mages

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>>52892062
>>52896921
>>52892278
Guns, and industrialization in general, changed what it meant to be a "warrior culture". Warrior cultures could no longer rely on being the strongest and bravest and most physically aggressive - that's still nice to have, sure - but they have to increasingly rely on engineers and factory workers and a massive support base in a military-industrial complex in order to maintain any kind of supremacy or even relative parity. The cultures that understood this and adapted, like the Japanese, prospered. The ones that didn't got fucked.

>>52892062
Probably the dumbest thing I've read all day.

>>52892745
>Lighter calibers and sniping don't really go hand in hand.

Rifles had a smaller bore and fired a lighter ball than smoothbores. Compare the Kentucky Long rifle to the Brown Bess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9H9cQT1i1c

If you're talking about the modern era than the current trend is short action cartridges firing a 6mm or 6.5mm bullet with a high BC.

Also, battle rifles weren't particularly accurate, particularly the M14 and FAL. The former because of design flaws and manufacturers fucking the dog, the latter because of it's locking mechanism and the fact that the sights were on different receiver halves. The M14 DMR rifles you see in pictures from Afghanistan were rifles pressed into service because of the increased range of the 7.62, not because of the accuracy of the platform, the M16 absolutely spanks the M14 there.

As for what different fantasy races would have? Realistically they'd all have the same weapons we used during our assorted wars and for the same reasons. Magical/racial advantages like infravision/darkvision would be a stupidly huge advantage.

I like to imagine a story about some Russian Operator during the cold war being sent to some fantasy realm after a mishap with some experimental teleporter technology. Fully geared with an Ak-47 and ample amounts of ammo, he quickly adapts to the magic wielding users of the land by pumping their heads full of lead. Eventually he becomes a hero of the land and finding a group of Dwarves to produce magically enfused AKs and ammo. Dunno what would happen next maybe he literally takes over the current continent with ano army of gun-toting Dwarves thus summoning the influence of allies and enemies alike from far off lands.

>>52892131
>Tolkien orcs ... [are] quite capable of using magic, maybe even better than humans
Everything you said was right except this. Neither orcs nor humans in LotR use magic. Magic arguably doesn't even exist in LotR.

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>>52900024
dont forget that elves hardly use any magic either

youre right, the "magic" in lotr is more like the gods fucking around with creation or using their "insider" knowledge of creation to hax shit in little ways. sort of like the matrix or something i guess

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>>52900024
>Magic arguably doesn't even exist in LotR.
What the fuck was Gandalf doing all the time then?
Doesn't matter if he's a god or a mortal, what he deals in in clearly magic.
The whole damn trilogy is about magical artifacts.

>>52900024
>Magic arguably doesn't even exist in LotR.

Fuck me, not this. I almost overdosed on autism in that other thread.

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>>52890600
Strong people can use bigger guns.

>>52900103
Sorry you're too dumb to realize that Tolkien was writing a complex narrative about the human condiction and the nature of evil and not a trite story about badass elves who cast magic missile to solve their problems.

>>52891722
>Of course if dumb races are so dumb they can't forge a tube (or carve one from wood, yes you read that right)

TREE CANNON!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJgYtt99V5s

>>52897470
I like that putting orc hitler in charge was objectively the best choice after you learned just how deep the gnomish rabbit hole went

>>52900151
Dude was literally a Heavy from Far Cry.

>>52900024
>Everything you said was right except this. Neither orcs nor humans in LotR use magic. Magic arguably doesn't even exist in LotR.
Are you retarded? If you accept the underlying logic of the narrative and that stuff happened, they do fucking hell use magic. Remember that orc-mud that they use to heal Merry? Or how Gandalf talks about how he once knew every spell to open doors in the tongues of elves, dwarves, and orcs? Or that whatever it is in Cirith Ungol that blocks passage? Did you forget Denethor's mind reading of Pippin, Faramir's hearing Borormir's horn from hundreds of miles away, Beorn's shape-shifting, the building of the barrow blades?

>>52900433
None of those things are magic. Things in LotR that seem magic only do so because they were created by super ordinant beings. All of those things are artifacts passed down to those people from ancient times when super ordinant beings were more common.

>>52900542
>None of those things are magic
>Spells aren't magic.
Ok, you are retarded.

>Things in LotR that seem magic only do so because they were created by super ordinant beings
Since when are orcs and guys like Beorn super ordinant beings?

>All of those things are artifacts passed down to those people from ancient times when super ordinant beings were more common.
You literally didn't read my post. Beorn is a fucking were-bear. That's not a magical artifact passed down from some ordinant being. A spell to open a door, or close one, that orcs do, isn't an artifact from ancient times, and even if it was. GUESS FUCKING WHAT! THAT'S MAGIC YOU SHIT.

>>52900433
I've seen this argument before, I think (or hope) it's mostly tongue in cheek trolling but it's based around the concept that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and all the magic you see is just some crafted artifice. It's a bottomless rabbit hole, it doesn't even matter that the material universe was sung into existence by not-god and his merry band of greek gods.

>>52899824

Go ahead and list warrior cultures that survived through gunpowder era.

Samurai only did because they closed the borders and pretended rest of the world don't exist. Not hard to do when living on an island. Everywhere else warrior caste got fucked.

>>52898706
>Guns needs parts to perfectly match and be replaceable unlike watches

just stop you unbelievable retard. Basic muzzleload guns use cartridges of paper/cloth to account for any discrepancies in muzzle/bullet dimensions, and honestly for that tech it really doesn't make that much difference since you're essentially making a pipe bomb with and open end.

>same size over millions of copies
Nobody is arguing orcs, let alone any fantasy race is capable of manufacturing modern day firearms.

>>52900151

Those idiots trying to use MG's like they were AR's always die like fags vs actually trained army.

>>52900684
Sikhs.

>>52900649
Except that not all of the magic involved in LoTR is based around artifacts. I even cited examples; beorn's shapeshifting, denethor's mind-reading, the black breath, etc.

>>52900684
Not him, but you might want to look up the British division of Indian subgroups into "Martial races" and non-martial races. You had definite warrior cultures like the Gurkhas that survived well past the introduction of gunpowder. Not to mention other groups like Janissaries who only became warrior cultures due to the gunpowder revolution.

>>52900712

That entire discussion was about early cased ammo. Paper cartridges don't count as cased ammo.

>>52900542
>>52900684
literally what the fuck is this thread.

>>52900750

Are a tiny minority.

>>52900778
Stupidity. Pure, unadulterated stupidity. Don't forget, most of the rest of 4chan is worse!

>>52900751

Are you really using an artificial warrior caste forced by more advanced civilization using more advanced gunpowder weapons as an example? Really?

>>52900649
That's not my argument

>>52900623
>Spells aren't magic.
Spell is an old english word that means to tell or speak. Gospel is a modern usage of this as it means Gods word.
Gandalf's literally saying that he knows languages.

>super ordinant beings
Orcs don't do magic. The "magic" they have access to was created by super ordinant beings like Sauron and Melkor and given to them.

>Beorn is a fucking were-bear.
Beorn is a tricky one but his past is mysterious to us so I'd guess that turning into a bear is just a property of his being, however it was that came into existance. It's no more magical than a double jointed person, or the fact that you, as a part of your existance, metabolize food.

Lastly
>A spell to open a door, or close one, that orcs do
Orcs don't do that.

>>52900542
Besides the examples already posted in this thread, Hobbit stealth is quasi-magical. The Mouth of Sauron is explicitly a sorcerer. The word "Elbereth" itself is magical

>>52900751
I'm on your side on the magic thing. Just laying out the format of the argument. It's actually a really brilliant troll because it's taking a theme in Tolkein's work to irrationally autistic extremes. You get to needle the other guy by implying that you're just more tuned in to the lore than him which really sets off fa/tg/uys.

I'm probably gonna use this at some point when I'm the right combination of bored and drunk.

>>52900784
And? You said surviving, not dominating.

>>52891069

10/10 would play

>>52900870
>Gandalf's literally saying that he knows languages.
etymology does not equal the common meaning and usage of any given word.
That's silly.

>>52900870
>turning into a bear is just a property of his being
Which is magic, unless you believe he undergoes a physical metamorphosis into a bear. You are denouncing everyone else for supposedly not understanding Tolkien's usage of magic while also going out of your way to using incredibly specific modern definitions of magic to "prove" there is no magic on middle-earth

>>52900820
Are you really moving your goalposts that far?
>>52900870
>Gandalf's literally saying that he knows languages.
Right, he's literally saying he knows languages as a way to get the damn door open. It has nothing to do with magic.

>Orcs don't do magic. The "magic" they have access to was created by super ordinant beings like Sauron and Melkor and given to them.
And you know this how? Other than just making it up of course.
>Beorn is a tricky one but his past is mysterious to us so I'd guess that turning into a bear is just a property of his being, however it was that came into existance. It's no more magical than a double jointed person, or the fact that you, as a part of your existance, metabolize food.
It is certainly supernatural, since you know that sort of thing is impossible to us living in reality. What the hell is your definition of 'magic'? And why should whatever arbitrary bullshit you come up with have any weight whatsoever?
>Orcs don't do that.
Yet they do indeed have spells for it. And if you're being consistent with your own stupid post, and it's about "Knowing languages" they do in fact do that, you retard.

>>52900870
I'm not even a Tolkein nerd and I can tell you're ether trolling or supremely autistic

>>52900883
Hobbits are just inherantly stealthy. It's not magic

The mouth of Sauron may be sai to be a socerer but what a socerer is isn't defined. I doubt that he casts fireballs and if we were shown any of his exploits I'm sure that we would see none of them are truly "magical."

>The word "Elbereth"
Yes. you're onto something here. Because words are powerful. Not just in fantasy but in real life. When super ordinant beings say powerful words they are more powerful, and it is of course the super ordinant beings who teach the mortals the power of the words.

>>52900929
I do believe that he undergoes a physical metamorphosis. I believe that it's not more complicated than a natural property of his being.

>>52900921
>etymology isn't important
Think you might have more fun with a different author.

>>52891196
>Crafting
>Waste of time
Aside of course providing best armor, best melee weapons, absurdly powerful grenades (even fucking Molotov is OP as fuck) and ability to turn any slain enemy into your thrall, a feat not even magic user can do.

>>52901060
>>etymology isn't important
I didn't say that. Also has no bearing on what you said before.
You equate the etymology of a word with it's current meaning and usage. Which is wrong.
Period.

Either way you are probably just trolling or mildly autistic.
So I'm not gonna post anymore.

>>52901060
Okay, so within the setting of Middle-Earth, heavily inspired by european folk tales and mythology, you think it is more plausible than the dude who can turn into a bear is some sort of alien lifeform who as a perfectly natural property of his bodily functions can transform into the guise of a bear (again, with no supernatural phenomena involved) rather than him inherently having a magical ability to shapeshift into a bear

>>52901030
>Other than just making it up of course.
Everything I'm saying is based in the text. It's no more likely that the orcs learned the secret of making their healing mud themselves than that it was taught to them by Sauron or Melkor. Arguably less likely.

>It is certainly supernatural, since you know that sort of thing is impossible to us living in reality.
Impossible for you because you're not a werebear. It's also impossile that there should be beautiful tall people who never die or get sick but I haven't seen you argue that Elves are magical.

>Yet they do indeed have spells for it.
Gonna need a citation there.

>>52901043
>I'm not even a Tolkein nerd
You should give it a try.

>>52891735
>Yes, and?
>Seriously asking this question
Let me reitterate you, you fucking idiot, since the other anon apparently failed to make it obvious for mouth-breather like you:
You are asking what's wrong about Boeing 737 costing 65 millions, when your budget is 10 bucks.

>>52901102
>You equate the etymology of a word with it's current meaning and usage.
No. I equated the etymology of a word with Gandalfs usage of it. Pretty sure Gandalf isn't talking about magic missile when he talks about spells.

>>52901115
I don't believe that he's an alien life from. I just don't think that his property of turning into a bear sometimes is a magical one.

>>52891955
>Specifically due to the lack of precision in making the casing?
Yes, precisely because of that. It wasn't best fitter to the barrel, so most of the propulsion gas was escaping in wrong direction, unreliable fuses, because the charge was badly measured and the case of uneven shape and the cases tend to jam, also due to bad quality caused by being over-glorified handwork with use of few very primitive mechanical presses of shody quality.

In short - the cartridge was fucking useless until they've started to give a damn about quality control and tedious improvement in the production process achieved by making it more precise than "surely, this will do"

>>52890600
>the dumbest humans love guns(rednecks, hillbillies, pvt. pile)
That's pretty much the only statistic needed to see if dumb races would love guns.

>>52891997
Given that natives survived pretty well until their food source was mercilessly gunned down - not really an answer.

>>52901208
That's an anecdote. Not a statistic. You also haven't controlled for anything or defined your variables operationally. Do you love guns? Because you seem to be a pretty dumb human.

>>52900917
>Someone likes the thing I did
>Feel validated and happy the rest of the day

I'm afraid my major stumbling block to the whole setting is how magic works. I don't want it to be "Wizard casts fireball," as that would kind of invalidate at least half of the whole enlightenment/industrial revolution setting, but at the same time, I don't want it to be under-powered.

I've been toying with the idea of mostly buffs and nature-based magic, but I want at least a little high arcane stuff knocking around... Any ideas?

>>52901216

They survived in wild areas far from white civilization.

They literally won just one big battle against US armies and only thanks to crushing advantage in numbers.

>>52901172
A man turning into a bear already fundamentally violates the laws of physics and defies our understanding of biology. When we say "magic" we are not referring to tossing fireballs, we are talking about supernatural phenomena in general which within a setting can be arbitrarily defined as magic, or interpreted as such out of it

Give this a whirl: Why were the barrow-blades specially harmful to the witch-king of Angmar, having been made by mortal men? Why was the Great Horn heard all the way to Minas Tirith, having presumably also been made by mortal men who weren't even Numenoreans? Do all dwarves and elves count as super ordinant beings, in order to explain things like the Dragon-helm of Dor-Lomin or the elven cloaks?

>>52900684
...pretty much any combat arms in any military that actually combat deploys? It's an entirely different world, bud. There's a reason it's considered hard to adjust post-ETS after enough years in service.

>>52901270
Go the Tolkien route and remove magic entirely. Just make a few things seem like magic because they were created by super ordinant beings.

>>52901208
>>52901237
the thing that makes guns attractive to people that are otherwise less fortunate in life either by luck or predisposition is the power they offer to their wielder.

The likes of orcs would definitely be able to use and maintain early firearms.

The thing is firearms changed the war doctrine. Completely. I really can't picture orcs using volley fire and calmly reloading.

>>52901334
>The thing is firearms changed the war doctrine. Completely. I really can't picture orcs using volley fire and calmly reloading.
I can see them using rudimentary one shot flintlock pistols while charging and the switching the grip to bludgeon.
Bluderbusses and grenades would also fit their style.

>>52901303
>super ordinant beings

Honestly my favorite part of this troll. It really sells the autistic tv troper thing.

>>52901237
Pretty hostile, but I'll inform you that stereotypes are often founded from reliable observations on certain groups of people. Sorry you're so mad that you can't see that, cheer up, buddy.

>>52901390
>y u mad tho?

>>52901303
I don't think so. Just because Tolkien did it doesn't mean it's best for all settings.

>>52901484
Not even tolkien did it you're falling right into his trap

>>52901270
>I've been toying with the idea of mostly buffs and nature-based magic, but I want at least a little high arcane stuff knocking around... Any ideas?
Maybe something more lowkey like minor control over the elements?
Can't create fire, but bend it to your will etc.
A mage with a lighter would be a force to be reckoned with.

Or make magic a ritual bases shamanistic thing. Each spell needs ingredients and hours or days worth of preparation and is bound in a focus or something that can just as easily destroyed as the focus that contains it.

>>52901208
>>52901390
So, European or cuck state?

>>52901294
>horn
This was made before the breaking of the line of kings. Númenoreans are almost super ordinant beings. So a Númenorean made it and then another Númenorean put a poetic condition on it that its call would not go unheeded if it were blown within the bounds of Gondor (we've established that words have power)So that's that.

>Barrow blades
Also made by Númenoreans. Something important here is that the blades were found in tombs of soldiers who fought in the armies of the northern kingdoms against the witch king. He's vulnerable to them because when he gets stabbed by a barrow blade not only is he stabbed but it's also a reminder of his former defeat as the Witch King of Angmar.

Elves are super ordinant beings. Tolkien established a farily obvious hierarchy among his peoples based on their proximity to divinity.

>>52901530
I suspect he's aware that I'm right and just has more sense than to get involved arguing with people who think the wizard duels in the movies are canon.

>>52901561
Red state, currently trying to get a gun to keep the negros and meth-heads out. Love this economy tho, praise god-emperor trump.

>>52901561
Cuck state, a European would have generalized all Americans.

>>52901127
>Everything I'm saying is based in the text
No it isn't.
> It's no more likely that the orcs learned the secret of making their healing mud themselves than that it was taught to them by Sauron or Melkor. Arguably less likely.
In either case, it's magic, so who cares?
>Impossible for you because you're not a werebear. It's also impossile that there should be beautiful tall people who never die or get sick but I haven't seen you argue that Elves are magical.
Of course elves are magical. Everything the elf does is magical, because 90% of their differentiation between humans is how their fea is active in a way that isn't the case for a man, which is how the fucking choice of Luthien works in the first place.
>Gonna need a citation there.

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/theroaddownloads/fotr.pdf Page 198

>I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind. But only a few trials, I think, will be needed; and I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue that they teach to none.

>>52901574
>So a Númenorean made it
It was made by Vorondil the Hunter circa Third age 2000. That is long after all the real Numenorans are dead, and from a Dunedain line which in all probability has 0 elvish ancestry.

>put a poetic condition on it that its call would not go unheeded if it were blown within the bounds of Gondor (we've established that words have power)
Overlooking the fact that when Boromir blows it on Amon Hen, both Faramir and Denethor hear it, which is definitely supernatural.

>He's vulnerable to them because when he gets stabbed by a barrow blade not only is he stabbed but it's also a reminder of his former defeat as the Witch King of Angmar.
That doesn't even make sense, since as the WK, he kicked the crap out of Arnor and was defeated by Gondor and the Elves of the Grey Havens.

You have READ the books, haven't you?

>>52901961
>No it isn't.
Okay.
>In either case, it's magic, so who cares?
It's actually not magic in either case.
>Of course elves are magical.
They're not magical. The things about them which appear magical to you are just natural properties of their existance as super ordinant beings.
>I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose.
Again. That doesn't mean magic spell of casting doors open. It means words or passwords.

>>52890600
Honestly I see longer lived races having problems with guns. If humans are at 21st century tech dwarves are probably only using gunpowder for blasting and elves are still using bows and arrows. Think of how inept your older relatives are with tech. Now imagine they're that inept with anything more advanced than what the Romans had. That's what being an Elf is like. Replace that with 16th-17th century for dwarves and gnomes.

>>52902029
>It's actually not magic in either case.
Of course it is. Magic is usually defined as
>The power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
The morgoth element being present in gold leading people to blinding themselves with their own pride is definitely a "Mysterious or supernatural force"
>They're not magical. The things about them which appear magical to you are just natural properties of their existance as super ordinant beings.

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
Read letter 131, and then shut up.

>Again. That doesn't mean magic spell of casting doors open. It means words or passwords.
And when shouting a word opens a door, THAT'S MAGIC, since it is "influencing events by using myserious or supernatural forces"

>>52902054

Assuming that elf brains operate same way as humans brains is retarded in every way.

>>52890600
I always liked the idea of a Orc gunpower empire. For some reason Orcs as a Ottoman/Persian/Mughal empire analogue just feels right? Its likely making Orcs=Turks in a historical sense feels right for some reason.

>>52902025
>That is long after all the real Numenorans are dead
The ruling men of Gondor were all decendants of high-born Numenoreans. Numenoreans are an ordinant category up because of their proximity to divinity. The horn made by numenoreans is really loud and Faramir and Denethor have really good ears. Denethor might have used the power of the palantir to help since he's old and Sauron probably would have wanted him to know that Boromir was dead anyway.

>>52902177
>The ruling men of Gondor were all decendants of high-born Numenoreans.
So were the Rangers of the north and other Dunadan, but of course, there's a reason why you don't see them called Numenoreans, who, again, were overwhelmingly just descendents of men who sided with the elves in the wars in Beleriand and were taught by those elves in turn.
>. Numenoreans are an ordinant category up because of their proximity to divinity
[citation needed]
>he horn made by numenoreans is really loud and Faramir and Denethor have really good ears
And yet other people who are closer (like The Rohirrim) give no sign of hearing it, nor do guys like Faramir and Denethor show other evidence of super-hearing.
>Denethor might have used the power of the palantir to help
You pulled that straight out of your ass.

>>52902094
>Magic is usually defined as
By whom? How does Tolkien define magic? I only care about things that are pertinant to the text at hand. Speaking of that letter is too long. Please point to the appropriate passage.

>>52902212
>(like The Rohirrim) give no sign of hearing it
Probably because they didn't know what to listen for. Denethor knows what to listen for and so he could hear it on the wind. Everyone else was less familiar with the sound and probably thought it was a fly buzzing or something.
>Denethor might have used the power of the palantir to help
That's actually one of the most plausable things I said given what we know about Palantirs and that Denethor is actively using one.

>>52893911
That's the mad minute, and the target wasn't 12", it was a 48" target with a smaller, 24" target in the center. The record you mention is almost universally considered propaganda because it was never documented properly. And the during the Battle of the Mons, the advancing Germans (who marched in formation to the battle) where fired on by a Company of Riflemen and a machine-gun section equipped with two Vickers guns.

The English did fancy the ability to rapidly and accurately put fire on man sized targets at combat ranges, but they weren't magical gun wizards.

>>52902244
>By whom?
The Oxford English dictionary.
>How does Tolkien define magic?
Letter 155, same source. And since you need spoonfeeding.

>But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goetitia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se) and goetia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goetia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficient purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference to them as clear as the difference between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.

>I only care about things that are pertinant to the text at hand.
No you don't, since you discard those out of hand. You care about defeating your bizarre strawman: since Tolkien magic isn't like DnD magic, THERE IS NO MAGIC IN TOLKIEN, which is retarded as all fuck.

>Speaking of that letter is too long. Please point to the appropriate passage.
I'm low on characters, but skip to
>I have not used 'magic' consistently, and read on.

>>52902283
>Probably because they didn't know what to listen for. Denethor knows what to listen for and so he could hear it on the wind. Everyone else was less familiar with the sound and probably thought it was a fly buzzing or something.
Yes, because a horn blowing sounds like a fly buzzing, and it totally isn't magical at all that this horn can be apparently now heard by everyone in a radius of hundreds of miles

>That's actually one of the most plausable things I said given what we know about Palantirs and that Denethor is actively using one.
Move those goalposts. Plausible doesn't mean it happened. Just because Denethor has a Palantir doesn't mean he was looking at it in the timeframe involved, nor does it mean that Sauron bent his gaze thither.

>>52890834
Actually a Napoleonic army made up of dnd races would be pretty baller. Human line infantry, Orc Grenadiers, elf riflemen, gnome/dwarf artillery.

>>52902443
Not sure which race would be best for cav though.

>>52902469
Centaurs of course.

>>52902504
I feel really dumb for not considering centaurs.

>>52902369
>Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete
He's using the word magic for the benefit of his audience. He's explaining that what people think is magic is just super ordinant beings doing art.

>>52900720
He never actually used it, just posed for photo ops with it.

>>52902720
You are an idiot,and what you've said is blatantly contradicted, since it "produces real results". That's why "Art' is capitalized (since he's drawing a parallel to older conceptions of magia) and things like "Their goetic effects are entirely artistic" is with a lowercase.

>>52903535
Obviously he doesn't mean art like painting. It's like craft and making shit. That's what magic is. Making shit. But while being a super ordinant being.

>>52903613
And destroying shit. And covering up shit, and controlling the minds of others.

Your definition of 'magic' doesn't work in either the OED or with Tolkien's own specific usage in his tale. Why the hell are you so dead-set on this?

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39KB, 600x338px

>>52890966
/k/ scaly fag here. No your quite wrong.

This is a slam-bang or 4winds. It's two pipes, a end cap, a chunk of wood and a Fucking nail.

>>52892285
I remember how shooting a gun in a close area is shit on the ears, so Dwarves would make the first silencers.

>>52900720
So do orcs.

>>52902720
Holy shit, I never thought I would see one of you guys out in the wild

You don't usually see this kind of delusion outside of tenured English professors and the odd graduate student. So, for the benefit of >>52903841

There exist people in this world who are so self absorbed that they can literally hear the author say "It works like this" and then go "well the author's wrong, or actually meant this thing that is in line with my specific headcanon" because that's just how over inflated their egos are.

The last time I ran into a guy like this he told me to get out of his classroom or he'd call the dean and have campus PD physically throw me out because I used the term stupid when answering one of his questions.

He's either a very dedicated troll or a complete waste of oxygen, but it's impressive that he ended up here of all places

>>52890654
>go from disease-riddled tribal shithole where life is cheap and economic/scientific/cultural development is nonexistant with a population of tens of millions to a disease-riddled tribal shithole where life is cheap and economic/scientific/cultural development is nonexistant with a population of hundreds of millions

Are they actually worse off?

>>52905190
I'm glad a tenured professor agrees with my assesment that you lack reading comprehension.

>>52890654
>It's a blame the victims of colonialism for their shortcomings episode

>>52905190
>The last time I ran into a guy like this he told me to get out of his classroom or he'd call the dean and have campus PD physically throw me out because I used the term stupid when answering one of his questions.

kek
>five years ago
>poli sci class
>say that so-and-so was calling out such-and-such for "being retarded" in this one campaign ad we saw
>enormous bloated (I thought of him as "The Meat-Mountain", easily 6'5 and 300+ lbs) ginger homosexual with a penchant for scarves, problem glasses, and penn jilette's hairdresser swivels head on barrel-like neck
>"AUGH THAT'S EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE"
>Swivel right back at him, really sarcstically say "Uh, *sorry*"
>go back to making my point
>eventually remember that there's a literal tard in my class
>black, wheel-chair confined, easily sub-70 IQ but in college for some reason with everyone pretending he's not retarded
>always makes ridiculous points that put the professor on the spot because the points are retarded but he can't just say that
>after about ten minutes of me sweating and everyone in class feeling embarrassed on my behalf tard just rolls his electric chair out early
>tfw he would literally have not even noticed if the Meat Mountain hadn't made such a big deal about it

Still got an A in that class tho, shit was cash

>>52905196
yeah, more people = more mouths to feed = more starvation

>>52890600
>suddenly i'm imagining guns evolving as if they are living things

>>52890612
Came here to post this. First post best post. Seriously go shooting sometime. Half of everyone that does recreational shooting for fun is a fucking retard. I see unintentional misfires every time I go out shooting in public ranges>>52890612
. It's crazy.

>>52890612
>Florida orc arrested for calling the townguards 165 times for bear and pretzels
>Florida orc kills wife with battle axe for refusing to cook boar
>Florida orc arrested for sexually assaulting a wyvern

>>52890600
>Would dumb but strong races like orcs or beastmen be able to cope with evolution of guns or would they go extinct?

Raiders can *use* guns but cannot *create* guns. Industry is fixed capital.

This leaves raider people with some choices

1) Ignore guns
2) Raid for guns
3) Buy guns
4) Establish a stationary gun-manufacturing center

1 gets you BTFO eventually when all your victims have guns

2 is surprisingly difficult - you either raid lone farmsteads that have maybe one gun, or you raid places with more guns where you risk running into ranked musket fire. Raiding only works because you're mobile and can move to strike targets weaker than you, which is not a useful way to acquire a lot of firearms and bullets - anywhere that has "a lot of firearms and bullets" is strong.

3 is a slow death for your people and your way of life. Buying guns means that there is a nation on your border that can slowly expand into your lands and there's fuck-all you can do about it because they're the gun making nation, they will always have more guns than you and they decide whether you're allowed to get more bullets and gunpowder.

4 is 3. The people living in the gun-city you built will slowly prosper and grow and expand and suddenly the power center of your people is not your raider-chieftains tent but some office in Gun Town. Your people will live on, but your "raider way of life" will slowly just become "the heroic lifestyle of our ancestors." You can still be warlike, but it will be as a nation, not as a tribe.

>>52890870

That looks like industry to me my dude. They're in a defined workshop with machine tools and modern steel. All of which they have either produced with industry or traded for.

Compare with e.g. an orc bowmaker supplying the raiding hordes who can work on the move while riding his dire-wolf. If the orcs built something like your pic related, they would now have a fixed location for punitive expeditions to burn down.

>>52904567
>This is a slam-bang or 4winds. It's two pipes, a end cap, a chunk of wood and a Fucking nail.

A weight of sulfuric acid, a dollop of fulminant mercury, a lead mine, a copper mine, a tin mine, a steel mine, a coal mine, another weight of niter, a fixed manufacturing location that can be burned down etc. etc.

>>52906607
>bear and pretzels

I'm just going to imagine that was deliberate and not a typo.

>>52901296
>...pretty much any combat arms in any military that actually combat deploys?

America is not a warrior culture my dude.

He didn't say guns ended "warfare," he said "warrior cultures."

Today there's, what, the Kurds, the Maori, the Sikh? Tiny irrelevant populations hidden well away in annoying mountains or far away islands? But all the large warrior cultures got btfo - the mongols are no longer warriors, the plains indians are almost extinct, the zulu are wallowing in their misery etc.etc.

>>52902156
Given that Tolkien rather shamelessly put Mordor in the same location in Middle Earth that the Ottoman Empire was in the real world, that's not terribly surprising.

>>52901545
I like the idea, but a mage with a lighter should never replace a guy with a gun in this setting; they're mainly force multipliers or acting in the same way combat engineers do in the real world.

Maybe I could have spells have to be prepped and then stored somehow. Traditionally that'd be in crystal set in a staff or something, but I like the idea that the principals of the scientific method and industrialisation are even making an impact in arcana... Maybe newer, more efficient methods of prepping spells are being developed, or a way of storing more spells in the same space, like printing scrolls on thin metal and placing them in a canister or something, so the crystal only has to carry very simple 'activator' spells. I'm still not sure though.

>>52906742

Orcs could receive advanced tools through trade with criminal elements of the higher races.

>>52891406
So the British Rifles did not famously fight in the Napoleonic Wars?

>>52906881

Sure.

Imagine they get enough of them to actually produce enough guns that we can reasonably reach "the orcs have guns," rather than "the orcs have some guns with them."

Now there are two types of orcs - the nomad raiders, and the stationary orc population. And orcs being orcs, they'll fall into internecine warfare (much like you see in the Afghan mountain tribes) which will eventually be won by the gun-making-and-therefore-armed stationary orcs rather than the raiding orcs - again, much like in Afghanistan, where there aren't any real nomad people. And then they'll stop doing aggressive warfare (Again much like the Afghans, who only fight people in Afghanistan)

There are still Afghans, obviously, but if you wrote a D&D campaign setting book about Earth, the only reason you'd mention the Afghans as more than a map marker is because other people keep going there to fight, it's not because the Afghans matter. This is quite unlike Orcs, who are typically considered a serious threat to all sedentary people within thousands of miles.

>>52906931
Sean Bean/Sharpe wants to have words with you, mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fy3tSim3to

>>52906881
See >>52891069 for the result. Suddenly you have Orcs potentially being one of the first modern nation-states, united by a shared military heritage like how Prussia became Germany.

>>52900917
fucking this, like Sharpe's Rifles with orcs, practically my ideal setting.

>>52906931
>So the British Rifles did not famously fight in the Napoleonic Wars?

>Prior to the formation of an Experimental Rifle Corps in 1800, a trial was held at Woolwich by the British Board of Ordnance on 22 February 1800 in order to select a standard rifle pattern
>No. built 22,000+

>Rifle Corps
>standard rifle pattern
>22k+

Sounds like a mass produced (and therefore cheap) rifle to me senpai, not the hand-crafted output of a tribal society that you need to
>>52890834
wrong.

>>52906821
America is not a warrior culture, being in combat arms is, regardless of if you're American, British, Polish, et cetera. It's an entirely different culture from the civilian side of the fence. You'd know if you had a CIB, bud.

>>52901136
Anon, just because it took ages to make a rifled barrel with hand tools does not remove the fact that they made a rifle barrel with hand tools. You think people making counterfeit guns by hand with simple tools bill by the hour? They most likely sell their guns for pennies compared to factory made guns that can be made by the hundreds.

>>52906742
Anon said "real industry," which seemed to exclude workshops and such. He never clarified, so I just assumed he meant mechanized, assembly line industry.

>>52906607
These are pretty tame by Florida standards

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>>52906607
>for bear and pretzels

>>52892858
>>52893317
Tolkien orcs and goblins are literally the same things, you retard.

>>52890600
If they have bows and metalworking they can adapt to guns just fine.

Otherwise they might be limited to firearms they traded for like American Indians.

>>52890966
People handmake firearms in the Pakistani mountains near Afghanistan. All types, historical replicas, and modern automatics.

>>52906769

It's really funny how modern people are used to technology. They think everything they use can be made fast and cheap just because they use shit produced in China for dirt cheap and then shipped across half the planet.

>>52909169

Yes, But it takes shitloads of work hours. It's not enough to sustain an army. Not even close.

And those people usually use parts from used firearms.

>>52896887
A smoothbore muzzleloader might be obsolete, but it will still function and kill.

Also they can trade or steal for quality weapons.

>>52890600
I dunno, ask the Krogan.

But whatever you do seriously don't give them guns.

Yes. Native Americans and Japanese adopted guns quickly why wouldn't Orcs do the same? The first instinct of a warlike person when he sees a new weapon is ''I need that shit'' no one goes ''UMM BUT MUH HONOR?!'' so realistically yes Orcs would invest in guns just look at 40k.

>>52890600
I mean, Neanderthals couldn't even cope with the evolution of FARMING, as far as we understand. So probably no. The specific tech isn't really the issue, "primitive" species like orcs need a frontier of civilization or a wilderness to plausibly exist. "Dumb but strong" is a losing proposition once tools are in the picture. As soon as the humans start to both outnumber AND out-organize them, they're prettymuch toast.

>>52890963
On the one hand, you're right - the line infantry firing in formation was as much a product of the previously existing combat formations and strategy as it was of the gun technology.

On the other, it could be argued that the European modes of warfare before and during the renaissance evolved organically as a direct result of better ranged weapons (the gun certainly, but also the evolution of various bows and crossbows).

>>52902443
There was a pendraken/kallistra line of napoleonic-looking ratmen a while back. "Republic of Ratburg" or some shit like that? Big hats and everything.

>>52909308
Definitely. Obsolescence is only a consideration relative to what the other guy's got. If he's swinging a sword, a muzzleloader is unassailable technological superiority.

>>52909423
Yeah, absolutely. They'll start by buying/trading/stealing them individually, but eventually make a move to secure their own source for "modern" weapons. Only exception would be if the orcs or beastmen are VERY stupid and literally cannot grasp how the weapons work.

Problem with historical comparisons is of course that they are all other humans. Anything you can figure out, they can figure out. That doesn't have to be the case with fantasy creatures.

>>52909216
How about you stop losing those firearms so fifty orcs can have firearms some many years old?

It isn't like you can't loot firearms from successful raids, you just can't lose firearms faster than yiu replace them.

For the US Army the M4s used were a decade old or older, not true any more as the M4A1 has a new barrel and new action in the old lower. These new weapons are 3-5 years old already.

>>52909453
>Neanderthals could not farm
It is more that they were genocided by humans with some interbreeding.

The Middle East was not Arab 2000 years ago.

>>52890600
The problem with questions like this is that it ignores even bigger, underlying problems.

Competing humanoid species didn't survive the fucking stone age, there is no way in hell green dangerous monster people would survive to the point where humans have guns.

Unless your bullshit handwaving powers are super strong, or your settings backstory bends over backwards to accomodate it, having several established races with a long history of competition and warfare that are still alive by the time one of them reaches the medieval period is often pure nonsense.

>>52909556
Even if the other guy has a minigun, he can still die to an obsolete weapon.

And then the surviving orcs have muzzleloaders and a minigun.

>>52909607
Your post is the death of magic as portrayed in the Witcher series.

However, with poor options for travel and balkanization the ability of humans to eradicate will be slowed. Also monsters.

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>>52890966
During the cold war the Russians made shotguns with defective 30mm barrels and those things are still kicking, don't bullshit me.

What kind of madman would supply the goblins and kobolds with rifles?

>>52908119
They're orcs, they're not very inventive.

>>52901296
You're thinking of "culture" in the small sense people use when they are talking about how people behave in the workplace or in your unit. The term "warrior culture" refers to culture in the broader sense. If Americans were a warrior culture, they'd be raised from infancy with the focus on military achievement as their major "coming of age". You'd get combat training from your parents, and at school growing up. In a warrior culture, the worth of an individual is determined primarily by success in battle. Try getting a job after you're discharged and then come tell me that's the case in the USA.

Lots of historical peoples were warrior cultures - the Spartans, Mongols, Samurai, Aztecs, etc etc. The man with the big hat probably got it by being the best fighter. That's what the previous poster was talking about. Reason's simple - when it's my stone spear against yours, the guy who's been practicing his whole life is going to win. Guns change that equation completely - suddenly kids can kill adults, recruits can kill veterans, and a coward with a machine gun can kill a battalion of heroes. Once that happens, the professional warrior becomes a lot less important.

The warrior culture is certainly not America, or most other modern countries. Many americans go their whole lives without ever even holding a gun, and of those that do only a small minority ever have cause to point one at another person.

>>52909666
Expanding, ocean traveling with actual krakens, caravans with dragons or desert scorpions who like sandstorms. Ghouls and worse that haunt the night.

Consider dwarf fortress adventure mode with bogeymen who attack at night and disappear to where? In the dawn.

Magical creatures that can't be hunted to extinction make it even worse. What you gonna do when a demon decides to infest a region from another dimension because he feels like it?

>>52909673
There are still T-34, M-4 and Stuart tanks in active service.

>>52909592
>It is more that they were genocided by humans with some interbreeding.
MAYBE. We're pretty certain about some interbreeding occurring, but the "genocide" bit is pure conjecture. We know neanderthals disappeared at around the same time we started making settlements and our population boomed. Best guess is that pure hunter-gatherers simply couldn't compete in most climates.

>>52909423
>Yes. Native Americans and Japanese adopted guns quickly why wouldn't Orcs do the same? The first instinct of a warlike person when he sees a new weapon is ''I need that shit'' no one goes ''UMM BUT MUH HONOR?!'' so realistically yes Orcs would invest in guns just look at 40k.

Plains indians lost to the gun-making nation, Japan wasn't a warrior culture.

>>52909627
Sure. Again that does assume the orcs would have the ability to use or maintain the thing. They might just be too stupid.

I mean, you could go the old warhammer route and make them walking, talking fungus people. Too stupid and short lived to ever figure out tech more complicated than "big stick HIT", but they literally sprout from the soil and you can't ever completely wipe them out.

>>52909666
The poor option for travel and balkanization don't really make enough of a difference.

The problem is two-fold.

First, If the different species/races have contact early enough in the history of the species, the populations will not be large enough to absorb frequent conflict. At one point in the history of the human race, there were less of us than fit in a large sports stadium due to some kind of disastrous event. Imagine if that happened AND we were fighting the orcs, bad times.

Second, if the different races DON'T have contact early in their evolutionary history then the difference in development will be magnified hugely.

Look at what happened to the native americans or the aztecs.

They were durdling around and barely started on metallurgy, when suddenly people showed up with fucking guns.

Now imagine that, but instead of just different cultures branching off from the same species, the humans or orcs go to another continent and encounter another humanoid race, that developed the ability to use LANGUAGE a hundred thousand years later or earlier than the other due to flukes of evolution. It would be so one-sided it's not even funny.

This is why the question is moot to begin with. The only way the races have survived thus far anyway is because whoever wrote the story felt like it, so the answer is always "they'll be as able to cope as you want them to be."

As soon as you bring logic into the argument everything goes to shit.

>>52909863
It doesn't need to be steady state. Interesting campaigns don't exist in stable times.

Just because the orks will be marginalized in a few generations doesn't make it not a campaign quest now.

Also magic and out of plane meddling fucks everything up.

>>52890649
>Anon we have an entire continent of dumb but strong people who are positively thriving with guns.

The united states is not a continent, at least until it annexes Mexico and Canada.

>>52910010
Absolutely true, I agree, you make a great point, but OP was asking "Will orcs cope with guns?" and I was pointing out that they'll probably not cope with smarter, competing races to begin with, way before guns are an issue.

In the end the story teller solves things through story, logic is not the most funl tool in these situations.

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>>52909680
The CIA. It's already retarded/evil enough to supply terrorists and cartels. What's a few goblins or kobolds more? Alternately, communists. Pic related.

>>52890640
Those aren't orcs, those are goblins.

Humans would sell/trade them guns so they would fuck up their enemies. Arming and training barbarians as mercs to fight other barbarians and eventually getting overthrown by them is a long standing human tradition.

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>>52909680
I would totally supply kobold masterace.

Goblins will burn though.

>>52890600

If the Orc or Beastman in question can use a bow or crossbow then they can use a gun.

But it depends on the setting. My immediate thought of Orcs and Beastmen is Warhammer Fantasy and both those races have individuals (or groups of individuals) that show enough intelligences for proper gun care.

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>>52909778
There's still WW1 weapons in active service.

>>52909778
The sherman is entirely out of service worldwide, except as a conversion into a heavy logging transport in remote north American forests.

>>52890600
I imagine that other races would wind up hiring the stronger races as mercenaries to wield huge guns for them.

>>52906607

Suddenly I wanna see a list of "Florida orc" shenanigans.

>Florida orc tries to explode birds with his mind, succeeds
>Florida orc causes 21-car pileup in police station parking lot
>Missing Florida elf found in Florida orc's basement, "I wanted to be here"
>Florida orc arrested for assaulting elf with a "fish cannon"
>Sewer explosion destroys three blocks, caused by Florida orc
>Staredown between Florida man and Florida orc incites quarantine

I'm bad at this, someone please do better

>>52913490
Reminds me of an image of an SdKfz 251 converted into a tractor or something in a fairly modern setting.

>>52891406
>And we needed industrial revolution and precision equipment for that.

Not really. That we need for mass production. What automatic weapons absolutely requires though is smokeless powder and smokeless powder guns require steels in qualities and quantities you can't reliably produce in your backyard bloomery.

So that was the point when everybody who wasn't white plain could no longer keep up in the arms race without straight up copying most of our industrial processes first.

>>52909423

Native Americans were unable to produce guns themselves.

And Japanese are smart, disciplined and hard working people. Nothing like orcs.

>>52909607

Neanderthals were larger and stronger than homo sapiens.

Who went extinct in the end?

>>52914253
Mammoths too were huge, but they were basically killed by an increase in rainfalls across Eurasia.

>>52914253
No one really. We are their descendants.
Homo sapiens fucked neanderthals into oblivion, till they became Europeans.

>>52914253
>>52914596
Yup and yup. Being big and strong isn't always an advantage, as a species, simply because big bodies need more energy to feed. Same goes for everything from claws and teeth to an armoured body or tremendous speed. It all costs energy to create and maintain.

The most successful species aren't the most powerful, they're the most efficient.

>>52890600
>Provide firearms and methods to orc tribes in neighbouring kingdom
>Wait and profit

>>52892278
>"focres of good with gatling guns vs tides of greenskins"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbVwBJxaYI

>>52918023
>Sabaton
Awesome
>Redcoats
Awesome
>Battle of Rorke's Drift
Awesome
>The movie Zulu
Awesome

But that doesn't change the fact that the British Empire were the aggressors in that war, over a trivial reason, purely to seize resource-rich territory. And I say this as a Brit and an Imperialist.

>>52908143
What? You don't build up a appetite for your pretzels by wrestling a bear?

>>52893899 beat me to the punch, kinda
>>52891765
You couldn't be further from the fucking truth. Shaka's main accomplishments were uniting the Zulu, and winning a few skirmishes against the British-- the former was a setting under which guns were not accessible.
He acquired as many firearms as he could get his hands on, but he was assassinated by his half-brother right before Europeans got serious about stomping the Zulu down.

>>52890625
>when you get there and they want to be treated like humans so you go full exterminatus on the building
Sorry for metagaming.

>>52890600
if anything they'd thrive. doesn't take much skill to effectively use a gun. a dumb orc can learn to wield a gun easily and be stronger and hardier than a regular human being.

>>52897429
>Africa wasn't a great enemy humanity was fighting for thousands of years

He didn't even say Africa was humanity you dumb fuck, learn to read or go back to /pol/.

>>52890695
>because we have a bad habit of funding people who later turn into terrorists that attack our shit for some reason?

You act like this is something that only happens to the US

This is literally a global phenomenon across all human societies that has existed since the beginning of time.

>be war chief
>mad because other, rival war chief has thicker bitches, more money, vast tracts of land, etc.,
>want that money, them bitches, that land
>go to other, more powerful society
>"Hello, my friend, I have a very interesting business proposition for you."
>Promise share of spoils and profit if they help you get what you want
>They give you men and arms, and you go to war
>Win war, take rival war chief's shit
>I am a bigger war chief now
>Allies come to collect their share
>Look around, realize that I don't actually NEED those guys any more
>Tell them to fuck off, I got money, bitches and land now
>They naturally do not take this lightly

And so the cycle begins anew.

>>52899819
>The cultures that understood this and adapted, like the Japanese, prospered. The ones that didn't got fucked.

So...also the Japanese?

>>52909833
>Plains indians lost to the gun-making nation,
For reasons that had nothing to do with guns and everything to do with their socio-economic systems and cultural outlooks, and really didn't actually lose until the US devoted a shit-load of time and effort into eradicating them.

Plains Indians such as the Comanche and Lakota actually put the fear of God into most white and Mexican (where relevant) soldiers, because they were actually very, very good at killing people with guns and bows on horseback.

>>52914219
>Native Americans were unable to produce guns themselves.

Why make them yourself when you can just steal them from Mexicans and white people?

This is why the Apache lost

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>>52890600
Orcs delight in explosions. They'd adapt just fine.

>>52913677
>Florida Orc and auto-shop owner challenges local Chamber of Commerce official to a blood-duel over bad credit rating
>Missing Florida Orc found black-out drunk at estranged sons house; "Nobody thought to look for him there," says police
>Twelve dead and none wounded in St. Petersburg Piggly Wiggly rampage by Florida Orc; police state it was over not being able to purchase menthol cigarettes with WIC card
>Massive pileup on I-10E caused by Florida Orc strapping homemade solid-fuel rockets to 1997 Chevy Malibu and then "open[ing] that bad bitch up"; debris to be cleared by tomorrow morning
>Florida Orc robs liquor store and butcher shop, claims God of War told him to do it
>TRENDING NOW: Miami Orcesses have begun weaving their hair with Elf hair, directly ripped from Elves on the street in broad daylight
>"Those who stand in the way of Zarduk shall have their bodies broken and skulls split upon the altar of the Law," Tallahassee Police Chief Zarduk of clan Blacktooth states in inaugural address to city officials
>Florida Orc challenges dragon to a drinking contest; wins, now petitioning Florida Supreme Court to legalize humanoid-Dragon marriages
>Twenty-six dead, eighty wounded when Florida Orc family reunion brawl spills out onto Miami streets. "We're still putting out fires and breaking up fights," says MPD spokesman

>>52890749
>The difference is Africa wasn't a great enemy humanity was fighting for thousands of years.
The slavs are still here. The eyeties and chinks too.

>>52910047
He said strong, not fat