WARHAMMER 40k 8th edition

We don't know enough about it for this to not descend into another AoS shitslinging contest.

>>52889854
But everything announced so far indicates that it is gonna be Age of Warhammer40k. Codices are not valid anymore, they dumbed down the rules...

>>52889888
We don't know enough aboit the rules, from what I've seen, to claim they're dumbed down. Bloat isn't complexity.
And of course the old codexes aren't worth anything, they're overhauling the entire system.

But fuck rationality, the sky is falling because they're changing stuff and change is bad.

I don't even know why I'm responding, trying to talk about it without hysterics is like shouting into the wind currently.

Ok. Quote from Warhammer community:
>Usually, we’d do this for up to 4 weeks before the update was announced, but as we’re so excited about the new edition of Warhammer 40,000, we’ll be extending this to 8 weeks (8 weeks for the 8th edition!).
Some people claim that the second part:
>(8 weeks for the 8th edition!).
subtly implies that there's 8 weeks untill the release.
I disagree. Which one of us is retarded?

>>52889805
It'll probably be the best edition of 40k yet (at least since 4th), but it still won't be good.

>>52889805
AGE OF FRIDOLIN!

>>52889805
Best thing evar since Pathfinder :^)

>>52889805
Given that 40k's worst rules changes have come about under the hand of NuGW I have little faith 8e will not be horrible.

>>52889888
>Codices are not valid anymore
Oh noes free rules and vouchers for codexes/rulebooks bought close to the announcement.

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>>52889805

>>52889805
I'll give it a go. Can't be much worse than the last two bloated clusterfuck editions.

>>52891101
And to think, I liked Rorschach

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>>52889923
>change is bad

You have something to say to me??

>>52889925
the anons saying release is 8 weeks away.

its pretty clear the vouchers are for people who bought a rulebook/codex in the 8 weeks before the announcement.
if you buy one now you don't get a voucher, you're doing it in full knowledge it'll be obselete in the near future.

>>52891271
You say that, but its NuGW that made 7th even more bloated and clusterfucky of late. Its almost to the point that Id suspect they're doing all this intentionally.

>>52891403
Reading comprehension, bitch.

>>52891519
No, the NuGW only made the Gathering storm and Wrath of Magnus.

The things were fucked beyond repair way before.

>>52891519
I don't expect it to be fantastic, but 40k as a game has never been fantastic to begin with. It has been keeping afloat with the fluff and hobby aspect.

I dislike the idea that whoever charges first attacks first. CC sucks in 7th, but damn does this "fix" sound imbalanced. It'll lead to alpha striking lists, like what's happening in the AoS meta now.

>>52891644
it wasn't a problem for fantasy for years. Also big blobby anvil units will likely be a thing so things like Boyz will tarpit for counter charges.

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I will buy, collect and play an army of Sisters of Silence and there is literally nothing you can do about it.

>>52891644
I actually like it this way. I rewards risky offensive.

>>52891644
Fuck off. My orks need this. WE ALL NEED THIS.

>>52891709
are you just going to use the same 5 sculpts over for the whole army?

>>52891101
>Infinity
>Good

>>52891798
They're listed as a faction so I'm sure 8th will give them some more models. Otherwise yes.

At least it means powerfists will get to strike instead of just being sniped out in combat

>>52891609
Given their self-reported timeline, they're responsible for some of the awful errata and FAQ that has really buggered the game of late. I agree things have been bad for a long time, but NuGW has certainly done their share to make things worse.

>>52891637
The fluff has been getting more and more watered down, with even more troubling signs on the horrizon, such as the lack of any mention of client races in the Tau Empire blurb on the new website.

>>52891877
It might still have something like always strike last.

also, we don't know how wound allocations work.

>>52891853
I hate to break it to you, but Im 90% certain they're not getting any more models.

>>52891877
maybe maybe not.
when fantasy did it certain units/weapons had a rule called alwaya strikes last. which did exactly what it sounds like.

i could easily see weapons that are currently unweildy getting that.

I'd also wager we'll see shit like genestealers and deamonettes get always strikes first.

>>52891959
I just don't expect the fluff to be as good as it used to be. I don't even want to read the fluff anymore. It's just boring or poorly written.

>>52889805
Don't know till it gets here. But I'm more concerned about the fluff than the rules really, since Chaos being the second most prominent faction and the "Main Threat" as the main rulebook puts it, is GW's idea of "not getting enough love".
It sounds like Chaos Marines are going to overthrow their loyalist breathed as the most obnoxiously jerked off faction pretty handily.

>>52891877
This. Challenges were neat but they ruined close combat. Things were better back when shit evolved organically and you'd end up with HQ smackdowns on occasion rather than never because the result of the matchup was so obvious.

>>52891798
It's what 90% of Marine armies did for years too.
And if SoB had plastics they'd suffer the same thing.

>>52889805
I'm feeling pretty good about it.

I already switched to an alternate ruleset that I'm pretty satisfied with.
Since 8th will be free, there's no risk to trying it and switching back to my other ruleset if it turns out to suck.

>>52889805
Didn't you know that April fools day in England is celebrated at the end of the month?

SERIOUS QUESTIONS!
What about beakies?

We all know warhammer 30.000 is much better than 40k because the marines just look nicer.

Think they will go with the ugly as fuark 3rd edition looking marines again or go full horus heresy era?

How new to the game are you people bitching about charging unit striking first? This was the case for a long ass time

>>52894464
Even as an avid mkiv enthusiast, I think you are full of shit.

Also we are getting new more truescale marines

>>52889805
I want the Squats back.

>>52889805

I fondly remember when Age of Sigmar came out I predicted that this would happen to 40K next. Then all you shit heels whined no , GW would never do that to their highest grossing I.P.

How does it feel that your favourite game you've invested thousands in is now dead and worthless ?

How does it feel knowing GW don't give a fuck about their loyal fan base beyond how much green they can squeeze out of them?

How many of you will continue to be apologistic cunts for this company anyway ?

>>52894520
But it isn't that though. It's not scrapping of the entire game. All the changes are good things and they aren't repeating (so far) that they made with AOS's launch

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>>52894484
>Even as an avid mkiv enthusiast, I think you are full of shit.
No, I'm not.
I looked at all the rulebooks as a kid with all the illustrations of horus era beakies and I wanted to play THAT game and not the boring as fuck ultramarine wankfest we got ever since.
Horus Heresy is the best thing GW ever did because of all the 80s and 90s era style armors finally getting miniatures.
They cant possibly go back to boring old ultramarines with pugsnout armor.

>>52894484
Boy that'll be a real kick in the cock if that truescale thing is true.

I'm not one to throw a bitchfit like some spergs, but seriously? They already released the Custodes at the standard 40k scale, and marines have always been scaled like that in 40k. Is having realistically-scaled marines really worth making thousands of models look like obsolete midgets?

>>52894544
I'm curious, does the thick load of GW corporate dick you just swallowed taste mildly of paint thinner ?

>>52894484
So when did truescale become a byword for stupidly large?

>>52894477
>not toughness 12, 4 wounds

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/

For reference the new unit profiles and chamges are listed here.

I dont like the removal of initiative, charges always going first is a terrible fix, lasgun blobs can bring down land raiders, and even with modifiers, I don't like the ws/bs change. Modifiers are fine and needed, yes, but not flat hit rolls.

>>52894549
>I fucking love Iron Armor

Though I also commit the HH cardinal sin of armor-mixing. So much trim I've sculpted for Corvus legs to make them match Iron armor...

As a side note, I quite like the "angryface" marine helm. Yeah, it's silly and overused, but it's so endearing. Also it's the only helmet that really looks like a face, besides those custom Blood Angels ones.

>>52894568
never, that's oversized "heroic scale" Guardsmen are not truescale, but hilarious big.

>>52894580
They're bringing back some weapons dealing multiple wounds, 4 wounds would die too quickly to anti-tank fire no matter what toughness you give it.

>>52894568
>""""natural"""" porportions come with comical sized head and hands

>>52889925
Wait, what?
Just bought the AM codex at the beginning of the month from their website. Should I be looking in my email for a voucher or something?
Also? Why haven't we been making any 'clearly Khorne's Edition' jokes, with the 8 and all?

>>52894610
you were already doing flat hit rolls with shooting, why do you care now? Also it made no sense that two accuracy stats use completely different systems to determine value.

>>52892004
Isn't that just how the history of 40k goes? Chaos or Imperium gets alternately jerked off by the fluff, while one army gets randomly picked to be the most broken in crunch?

2 wound Terminators. Will they actually be viable to use?

>>52894688

they will be double the points now

>>52894520

But how is it dead and worthless? The setting is still there. With AoS, we already knew the Old World was gone. It literally exploded and then everybody died. The end. I don't know much about current events beyond Cadia being kill, and Rowboat waking up, but last I checked, shits still there.

Codicies going away? Alright, if they're reformatting everything it makes sense. Can't drop one army with move values, and static hit rules while the other 20 don't. That would be retarded.

Making factions big alliances? Whatever. Imperium functions kinda like a Grand Alliance anyways. I can live with that.

AoS, for having a totally fucked launch that had me give up on the hobby for a good year and some change, isn't all that bad, and I enjoy how it plays. If 40k gets a facelift to match how gameplay goes, cool.

>>52894630
It's the trade off for having battle tanks on the table at all.

>>52894688
Not until they're immune to small arms fire

please give us 2d6 saves

>>52894728
leave 2d6 for warmachine. 40k really needed a streamlining and just sticking with d6 for everything is a good design move.

>>52894638
You need to contact their customer service; it's not automatic. As it was an online purchase they'll have a record of it. Quote your order number.

>>52894749
Then a rerollable 2+ save works just fine.

>>52894662
Flat hit rolls in combat? Were you talking about BS? that's what we have now yes. A flat hit roll with no major modifiers. Adding modifiers to bs is fine and needed.

I'm talking about flat rolls in close combat. Where your skill is supposed to be compared to the skill of your opponent. Thats why we've had an opposing system. I would have been happier if they had expanded the range of the opposed system to include 2+ to hit and impossible to hit, again with modifiers, but not flat rolls.

There's no reason, modified or not, that a guardsmen conscript would be able to hit a bloodthirster in combat. Opposed rolls of model's weapon skill are needed.

It's just more thematic that way.

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>>52894613
>As a side note, I quite like the "angryface" marine helm. Yeah, it's silly and overused, but it's so endearing
Nope. Sick of it since ca 1998.
I love how forge world released upgrade kits for ALL the chapters.

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>>52894787
HH managed to make even the ultramarines look cool.

>>52889805
Love it. its gonna be great.

>>52894728
>immune to small arms fire

"Everything can hurt everything now"

Good luck. I'm bringing out 500 conscripts on movement trays. One of these lasguns are gonna go through that armor.

>>52894638

Contact customer support and let them know. If you bought it through the GW website they should give you a refund.

>>52894777
theme is fucking pointless.

mechanics are what that matters.

This mechanic is easier to follow for people because no comparisons are needed, chart is gone, also incentives getting the charge or at least getting your offensive charge that you want from a hammer and anvil strategy.

>>52894787
>chooses the ugliest upgrade kit out of all the legions to replace bulldog face
t. 30k TS player

>>52894770
>>52894851
It's cool to know they're doing this for people.
Granted, mine was bought in an order that partially used a voucher, so I dunno if they'll be willing to give a refund or not.

>>52894568
Wouldn't True Scale marines be smaller? If you look at the proportions of Rhinos, marine models are way too big. Or rhinos too small.

Regardless truescale is fake and gay and we're just getting a new plastic release with new poses.

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>>52894787
>>52894819
Wondering if GW will have the balls to overhaul the busted old pugsnout helments in the style of HH

>>52894880
I dunno, man. The SoH upgrade kit is pretty fucking ugly. I know it's the aesthetic, but still.

>>52894851
>refund
A voucher, not a refund.
GW keeps you money but you get to spend them on another GW product.

>>52894920
TS upgrades were so ugly that they made a second better one.

>>52894787
Hey, to each their own.

I fucking love the FW upgrade kits. Some of the armor pieces are even legion-vague enough to work for multiple groups, like Iron Hands/Iron Warriors, or World Eaters/Death Guard.

And with a bit of greenstuffing and the right paintjob you can slip them in to a CSM force no problem!

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>>52894920
>>52894944
>>52894896
>gw could pull a sigmar and replace all vanilla marines with custodes looking beefcakes

>>52891276
>>52891811
There's always Malifaux.

>>52894885
Worth a shot. Worst that can happen is they say no.

>>52894974
which I play over Infinity.

Also if anything Rorschach should be promoting Batman miniatures game since Watchmen are a team in the game.

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>>52894968
>Hey, to each their own.
I just remember reading the old 40k books and seeing all the amazing marines that for some reason didnt look like the miniatures at all.
Was there ever any reason given as to why the early illustrations looked so different from the miniatures?
I feel like 3rd edition on everything got really corporate and lost some of that "grit" too.
Like the hair metal noise marines and shit.

>>52895016
>Watchmen
>Comic trying to say something deep about the superhero genre
>Action figures in a minis game
>The fate they deserve
I hope Alan Moore cries himself to sleep every night.

>>52895046
Well, in the early early days, there were no minis to base it off of; they just sort of went wild.
I assume they kept going back to that stock of pre-mini pics throughout the first couple of editions.
Then came the lawsuits, and the copyright bs, and the whole 'well, if we make a picture we have to have a model for it or somebody else will'.
Copyright law is a freaking dumpster fire, and I can't really blame GW for any of that.

>>52894896
>>52894819
>>52894787
Is it possible to Kitbash these with the 40k Tac Marines?

>>52895090
>Then came the lawsuits, and the copyright bs
Never read about that.
What happened?

>>52895064
>I hope Alan Moore cries himself to sleep every night.
He probably does. In a bed full of merchandising money.

>>52895064
Why would he care?

Alan Moore is insane, but not that fucking stupid

>>52895046
I absolutely support the return of 80s goofiness. Like Slaanesh guitars or Goff Rokkas. I see no reason why 40k can't be both grim and zany, and have a little something for different types of fans.

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>>52894944
I just use Scarab Occult helms. They're basically MkIV anyway.

>>52895098
Absolutely. You can even do it with the somewhat older CSM kits if you don't mind things looking a little weird.

>>52895117
Basically British and US copyright laws demand that you "make effort to protect your IP" or you lose it on the ground that you didn't care

This is why you see companies engage in petty stupid lawsuits like Bethesda trying to sue an indie developer for use of the word "scroll"

MKVII is the ugliest armor.

>>52895168
See also: the 'Spots the Space Marine' debacle.
That one I DO blame GW for.

Redpill me on chapterhouse and wargame exclusive.
Why was chapterhouse sued when wargame exclusive still makes kits?

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>>52894520
Termies have 2 wounds now. I'll live.

>>52889923
Show me your vehicle turning angle tool, your hand flamer template and your vehicle deceleration chart, THEN tell em about dumbing down a game.

>>52894520
All the changes I'm seeing are good.
I am actually going to order a new army soon, saving $80 shekles a week until the new edition comes out. Should be enough for a new army by then.

tactical marine Ld 7?
same as a fucking guardsman?

>>52891644

A) charging striking first was how fantasy used to be back when it was good

B) that is absolutely not the AoS meta

>>52895335
Considering the battleshock mechanic and YOU DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW GUARD STATS we should be fine.

I want my Thousand Sons to have 2 wounds and my Scarab Occult to have 3. I want to walk through bolter fire laughing again.

>>52895359
true, i don't know guard stats, but ld 6 on a guardsman seems relatively low too. and i know that the leadership mechanics will be different in 8th, i'm not against that. as long as a tactical marine won't run away as easily as a measly guardsman

>>52895251
I think that Chapterhouse shamelessly branded their products with GW product names.

>>52895335

Keep in mind the new leadership mechanic

You roll D6+amount of guys you lost and compare to leadership. However much you beat it by is how many guys run away. 7 is pretty good as you can't even fail unless you lose 2 or more guys.

Also they said marines will still have some form of ATSKNF, so expect something else for them too

In contrast bare guardsmen will probably be like 6 while conscripts would be 5.

>>52895335
Weren't they LD 7, with Ld 8 Sarge?
Not that it mattered too often with their "no no fear"

>>52891798
Didn't stop me from doing a stormtrooper army. I don't even win either

>>52895064
Alan Moore is too busy doing what he wants to be doing in between the snide remarks about comics to actually give a fuck about whatever it is that DC is doing.

>>52894568
True scale marines is a retarded meme because the oversized plastic IG makes their stature look average. Using this logic the Eldar also needs to be as tall as true scale marines.

>>52895526

Eldar are about normal human height

>>52895558
No, they are generally taller than humans. GW just can't into tabletop scale that reflects their fluff.

>>52894974
>which costs are just as ridiculous, if not more so, than 40K.
>with minis that are tiny as fuck, and with multiple parts - although they look good for the most part, I will give them that.

>>52889805
The promise of a balanced point system as well as a total break down of all the broken shit sounds nice.

I do have to say I'm weary to say the least with regards to vehicle changes and removal of templates.

>>52895625

>vehicles

Yeah we'll see about them, looks like they'll have good armor saves and high wound count but we don't know enough yet

>removal of templates

This one I won't be bothered by.

>pick a point
>units with at least 1 model within X of that point take Y hits

Done. Scatter really fucking slowed down games and having a flat Y or DY for hits makes sure that blasts scale linearly instead of shitting all over newbies who bunch up their models

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>>52895420
>not decking out your entire army with pussy taus

>>52894840
My traitor guard will shine even brighter. A wave of laser fire so hot the closest star will blush, dying by the tens per turn.

>>52895658
well, scatter wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't use scatter die. Trying to accurately gauge scatter was a nightmare.

They would've been fine if the templates were numbered in the direction rolled like how most games now do it.

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>>52895672

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>>52895729

>>52895658
I really liked the idea of not bunching up to avoid this or trying it to limit your profile.

In practice this was somewhat cumbersome yes The game suffers a little bit from skirmishing rules whilst we sometimes play full fledged engagements.

I am not sold on the vehicles even with good armour saves and high toughness, Perhaps I'm nostalgic but I liked vehicle facings, the damage chart and the hull points somewhat; all the vehicles needed were armour saves to keep them from being plinked to death by high str low ap weapons.

>>52894477
>>52895256

Are these real?

I like the Terminator line but the Dread seems tad meh. Not bad just meh.

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>>52891276
Rorschach sucks

>>52897944
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/

>>52894840
1500 points of conscripts deals 20 wounds to a 250 point land raider assuming you got all 500 of them within 12, somehow, seems fair enough

>>52898240
Rorschach is supposed to suck. He is an emotionally stunted madman that tries to be the kind of hero he is not.

>>52889888

With the scores of posts I've read with people moaning about wound tracking breaking too hard, this is clearly needed

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>>52891101
Why are infinity players so cringy
they game is blatant weeaboo with yiff bait with overly complex rules.
go get mad at some glam metal

>>52889805
I'm glad I left before 6th dropped. 40k is getting worse with every single rewrite.

>>52894520

How are you WFBfags still this assblasted?

>>52899194
>Opposed stats are too complicated
Now even a single grot can casually hand a bit on a fucking bloodthirstier
>Initiative is too hard to remember
Well now whoever charges goes first

>But now how will my Titan be hard to kill?
Remove the Wounds cap. 200hp Titans you need a fucking page of paper to track the HP of one unit now.

>>52899270
I am so glad that you know the titan rules. please spoil us with the superheavy rules which you seem to know so much about

>>52894941
we get to keep our books though so really it's fine.

i imagine a lot of us will just be saving the voucher for getting 8e books.

If I want to do an all bike space marine army, who would be better, Dark Angels Raven Wing, or White Scars?

>>52899194
>>52899270
Doomsaying at its finest. The official rules arent even available yet.
It's gonna be fine, and still very fun. All of you fags shitting yourself over nothing are still gonna play the game and forget you ever freaked out over nothing like a bunch of babies,

>>52889888

>Codices are not valid anymore

It always wierds me out when people say shit like this.

It's an edition change- codices always get overruled in edition change. How many of you retards are still using the 4e CSM codex or the 5e Guard codex in 7th edition?

Such nonsense.

>>52896015
we already know modifiers for some things are in.

something like a +1 to wound rear and -1 for the front would be easy to implement

>>52899503
i mean pretty much every other company always does that with all their updates.
backwards compatible edition changes seemed strange to me when I was new ro 40k

>>52895672

That you Nightfaux?

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>>52899005
What if their 40k army builder app had a wound tracker?
That or idk, maybe use pen and paper?

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In preparation for 8th edition I want to bring out the nids again (last I played them was early 6th). Do I rebase these fuckers to 32mm so they stop falling over? Or is that insane?

>>52899807
just put some weights in the bases, man

>>52899807
>Do I rebase these fuckers to 32mm so they stop falling over? Or is that insane?
if you want to sure.

though the typical fix of glueing weights in the underside of the base might be easier.

>>52894688
>>52894728
the facebook page says no 2d6 sadly but they'll have something else aside from the 2 wounds. I want it to be a re-rollable save but it'll probably be the 5+ invulnerable save

>>52894544
>All the changes are good things
I wouldn't go that far. Most of the changes can be good if properly executed. Some are just good, some are just bad. I'm suspicious that GW will be able to do well, given their recent work.

>>52899503
>It's an edition change- codices always get overruled in edition change.
Overruled, sure, but still compatible. The last time even current-edition codices were made completely incompatible by the new edition was when 3rd came out, in 1998.

>>52899696
>people complaining about having tonal write down wounds
>play tzeentch daemons
>have to roll for and track at least 25 spells
>also 5ish random wargear

But no, tell me about tracking a few numbers.

>>52899807
Add 1 penny or a nickel to the bottom and that should solve it

>>52891753
What do you rewards it with?

>>52889805
>Grey Knights and Space Wolves still exist

I don't like it.

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>>52889805
>be Renegade & Heretic player
>8th edition

I am fucking TERRIFIED right now. I modeled a LOT to IA13 rules. I have Marauders, Renegade Ogryn, about 200 something militia mutant rabble. I have three entire fucking R&H armies.

I am fucking terrified.

>>52900021
It might be nice if we see invulnerable taken before armor, especially with armor saves getting reduced now, could be cool to see on termies but it would also mean a lot of models would have to see their invul saves reduced

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>>52894477

So if T7 is the equivalent of AV12, how will this proceed?
Land Raider T9 W12 3+? 2?

Since it the T comes from the front armour, how will they influence everything else? Like a Russ?

T9 W10 4+?

>tfw Raiders/Trukks T6 W4 4+

Will jink still be a thing? How about Fliers, how flimsy will they be? A Valk for ex will still be T7, but how do you reckon the wounds/save will look due to its status as a plane?

>>52889805
When will Rak'gol get an army?
And if the answer is never, will my Jokaero-heavy Inquisition army still be viable in 8th Ed?

>>52900462

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russ gets a special rule to treat it as tougher from the front as it's especially notable in how varied the sides are. 14 vs 10 and all.

>>52900462

I wouldn't expect a linear expansion from the dreadnought, they already said heavier vehicles would have dozens of wounds and that toughness was uncapped for them too.

>>52900536
Yeah, like the Gorkanaught, which for it's size really should be a lil' super heavy, just like how the Malcador is.

These examples are all conventional vehicles.
Naught I'd expect something like T8-9, W12-18

Don't forget the lack of high S weapons in this game, so things can't get too crazy when it comes to vehicle toughness.

>>52900320
They've said Forge World models are going to continue being supported. I hope this means Renegades and Heretics.

Not least because I'm building a 100-strong army of them too.

>>52889805
I'm a pretty big grognard but I actually like a lot of the changes so far. Still worried about:

Overwatch - would prefer this didn't return, takes too much time to do another round of shooting and wound allocation every single time you charge.
Sieze the initiative - this can fuck off
Two turns in a row bullshit - will not work in a shooty game
Nothing so far to fix the timing problem where if I kill a unit in your phase i'ts amazing, that unit, after being invulnerable to shooting, is now free to act again and probably engage something else.
If I happen to kill the unit in my turn they can now be shot at during your turn and are probably fucked.

>>52899503

Have you ever been around for a new edition in 40k? With the exception of 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd, every other rules edition took along the currently released codexes until new ones could be released

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>>52900500
Rak'gol won't get an army because FFG owns them. Same reason we'll never get kits for these beautiful bastards.

Your jokaero should be fine, but why you run an army of alien chimps is beyond me.

>>52900524
They're trying to de-bloat the game, so I doubt particular vehicles would have their own special rule applying modifiers to it. High wounds/toughness and good saves are the equivalent their combined facings.

The dread has rear AV10 like most things.

>>52897944

As someone who plays 30k that statline looks terrifying as it's just a straight up better mechanicum robot

>>52900597
>Nothing so far to fix the timing problem where if I kill a unit in your phase i'ts amazing, that unit, after being invulnerable to shooting, is now free to act again and probably engage something else.

They'll likely go with 'You attack in your own turn in melee, like how you do with shooting'. Rather than each person getting 2 melee fights for every 1 shooting phase.

>>52889854

I would say we do, we know it's going to be 12 pages long. We've seen examples of the unit profiles. We've seen about as much as we can see without actually having seen the rules.

>>52900630
what the fuck caused the falling out between FFG and GW

I wonder how they will handle poison shit like splinter weapons.

>>52900614
How is releasing the information you would normally find in a codex for free en masse a problem at all? You'll still get to buy whatever the equivalent of battletomes in 40k are for your fluff and any special rules, but moving to this model is only going to make the game more accessible.

>inb4 muh sekrit club

>>52891853
They only got plastic models because of the box set. Everything else will be resin for HH. They're not getting anything else for 40k, mate.

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>>52900659

due to the removal of initiative the two most likely outcomes are the charging unit strikes first throughout the combat / the unit with the highest movement value strikes first after the first round.

What I'm interested in is how frag grenades will affect this, since so many things have them

>>52900672

They didn't really fall out, FFG's X-wing game is becoming so popular it's now a direct competitor so GW decided to stop letting them print money with their licences.

>>52900672
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/9/9/a-new-path-forward/

They signed a ten year licensing agreement in 2007 that expired this year. Unfortunately this shit happens when you're sharing IPs. I don't think there was too much bad blood.

Also FFG has no need for the Warhammer IP any more because it's making hella bank off Star Wars via X-Wing, Armada and Imperial Assault, not to mention the RPGs. No reason for them to renew it.

>>52900710

I think grenades will do nothing with the exception of very specific defensive grenades like the ones plague marines and Tau have.

>>52900710

Eh, I'm leaning towards them doing it the Age of Sigmar way. Where people just fight in melee in their own turn.

>>52900635
they could build the front stronk, rear weak thing into the core rules as a modifier. Most tanks have that.
then the few excpetions like landraiders and monolitys can get a special rule that says the rear modifier doesn't apply.

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>>52900710

> We can shoot in and out of combat like AoS.

> MFW people are throwing grenades at each other in melee instead of actually hitting each other.

>>52900650
you can't forget the core rules are changing as well.
its better in 7e, how it is in 8e remains to be seen.

>>52895558
Eldar are as tall as or taller than marines.

>>52900659
Maybe, I kind of really like that as an elegant solution.

But we also know you can spend command points to 'interrupt and attack before your opponent' which leads me to believe they also copy pasted the Sigmar 'players alternate choosing a melee unit to attack with' mechanic.

>>52900710
my speculation is charging through cover removes the striking first, unless you jave frag grenades.

>>52900770
>We can shoot in and out of combat like AoS.
has this been confirmed anywhere?

>>52900462
T7 is the AV10 equivalent, anon. Russ will likely be T7 as well, thought possible T8 to count for the fact that it had AV14 unlike a Dreadnought.

I've just realised.

> WS 3+.

Fuck, space marines are hitting gretchen on the same roll as a fucking bloodthirster now.

Could they not have kept the WS table? It wasn't exactly rocket science, how dumb do they think we are.

>>52900630
Why wouldn't I run an army of Alien chimps with melta-plasma-flamer rings

>>52895672
>>52895774
what the shit is this

>>52900770
False.

>>52900818

The table that 99% of the time just meant '3+ or 4+'? The table barely affected anything.

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>>52900811
No, the opposite has been confirmed.

>>52900689

Its not, I'm just saying you're being pedantic for saying this isn't unprecedented in 40k after 1995

>>52900813
so a rhino will be T7 with what, 4 wounds? What about a trukk? T7 W2?

>>52900630

FFG owns nothing of the various RPG games they made using Games Workshop's IP.

Think of it more like how the Blood Ravens are Relic's baby, though since DoW has been so popular GW has acknowledged them.

>>52900813

Well a Dred was AV 12 so I'd be more inclined to say T5 is AV 10.

>>52900738

you attack on your opponents turn like normal in AOS

>>52900846
good stuff, given the prevalence of shooting in 40k, that would be retarded.

>>52900843

I know you probably all play marines, but for some people who liked a bit more variation yes it was important.

Ok so, WS/BS have been made static. BS was always this way sortof, but this finally frees up WS to be more than just 3/4/5s to hit.

They've stated these aren't set in stone, there will be modifiers. What I'm thinking is that things like Stealth and Shrouded are now hit modifiers (or at least I wish). Stealth gives -1 to hit, Shrouded gives -2 and they stack. A marine shooting a stealthsuit would hit on 6s, not 3s.

>>52900851
considering a dread has 8 wounds now and they used to be the sam 3 HP I'd expect them to be ~8 wounds as well in 8e.

>>52900904

>conscripts might not hit space marine captains on 5's, fucking travesty!

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>>52900880
I'm hoping it doesn't go that far. Pulse rifles go from stripping hull points on a 5 to wounding on a 4. Given that vehicles now have saves, would that be a fair trade? Especially since armour modifiers will be a thing.

Also, at what point do we reckon that will start? So many guns, it can't be S4. S6 and up maybe?

>>52900847
I wasn't the anon saying it was unprecedented, I just weighed in because I'm struggling to wrap my head around all the salt of codexes getting squatted. I own a bunch from across five editions, so the earliest ones are completely useless in games terms but they're still full of awesome fluff and art, which is where most of their value to me comes from. It's not wasted money. Although if you wanted to make the argument that the quality of GW's art and fluff has gone down and proportionately the value of a codex's contents outside the rules have fallen, I wouldn't disagree.

>>52900866
Really? Then maybe it's just the fact that the RPG market is much nicher than the vidya market, which is why we're seeing Blood Raven tutorials from St. Duncan this week but we're never gonna see the Storm Wardens from Deathwatch get similar treatment. GW acknowledging the Blood Ravens and milking DoW for all it's worth potentially brings people into the hobby, whereas I'd wager most TTRPG players are already familiar with it at least to some extent.

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>Dreadnought is no longer a vehicle
>High weapon skill no longer affects your opponent's hit chance

kms

>>52900922
What? 12/12/10 vs 11/11/10 = both T7 W8?
How does that make any sense, unless the Rhino (somehow) has a worse save?

>>52900904

Actually, I played SOB. It basically never mattered beyond 'Is it 3+ or 4+' except in the most extreme cases.

>>52900985

Yeah, a MEQ.

Even then a 3+ or a 4+ can make quite a bit of difference.

>>52900880
No, using 7th's To Wound chart, T7 is quite literally AV10. This means they used the Dread's rear armor for it's toughness in 8th.

>>52900950

Well AV10 vehicles usually have exposed crew. A Rhino would be T6 at the least.

>>52901008
>sisters
>MEQ

You really underestimate the difference between T3 and T4.

>>52895335
Morale is changing so it's not make or break, its (wounds taken in turn)+1d6=additional wounds taken from morale loss
I'm gonna assume Guards are going to have lower morale to boot for numbers
Commissars will have a field day

>>52901008
The only thing sisters have in common with MEQs is a 3+. SoB are GEQ with a 3+ instead of a 5+.

>>52901048

Really? So one point of T makes all the difference but there's no difference between WS 3+ and WS 4+?

>>52900596
I am afraid we will get "just use cultists" and "generic ogryn but with chaos" and "just use imperial guard leman russ"

I love and depend on my BS-2 tanks and infantry. I don't even buy them armor.

>>52901066
Sisters have WS3

Unless you mean the WS chart, which is just retarded because a Guardsman could hit a Bloodthirster as easily as a Chapter Master.

So is this the new general for now?

>>52901066

Sisters HAVE WS 3 through 7, depending on the model.

>>52901090
>>52901109

Forget about the Sisters, I was making the point that they should have kept the WS chart.

He said T 3 to T 4 made a huge difference, well by that logic so does the difference in WS we are now loosing in 8th edition.

>>52900916
>Orkz hitting on 6+/4+
Ayyyyyy

>>52900950
it'll probably be like shadowar. shooting only uses the actual modifier stat.
Strength based modifiers only in close combat.

>>52900916
Who said stealth or shrouded even exist?

I've seen nothing so far that makes me want to actually get back into the game or give GW money. It's all just deck chair rearranging rather than fixing the problems.

Anybody else thinks giving Terminators and any other spammable infrantry multiple wounds is a bad idea? I play pure Deathwing with 3-5 squads usually and I'm not looking forward to the book keeping during the match. Just give them S5 T5 and ways to lessen armor reduction.

>>52900980
i would expect lower AV becomes lower T. since its essentially about how hard it is to damage.
HP were functionally wounds already.

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>>52894564
My dear goyim, don't you know you should buy all new marines? You'll have so much more fun if do. Promise

>>52901225
They could just make it so you always remove whole models, so you only track whether a single model is wounded or not.

>>52899457
That's all White Scars are about, so...

>>52901082
probably initially yeah. but FW will likely start doing IA 3rd editions as GW starts dropping 8e codexs

>>52901203
Nobody, but assuming they keep them and the cover system in. But I never understood it.

>Invisibility spell
>Makes you invisible
>Hit on 6s
>Stealthfield technology
>Makes you invisible
>Ups your cover save

>>52901225
Stormcast Eternal Liberators have had two wounds since the start of AOS. Nobody I've heard bitches about record keeping for them, and they're the baseline troops, not even elites.

>>52901247
they've done this in a few other editions so its likely.

>>52901299

I hope so, the idea of 3 Predators with 1 wound each rolling around in a squadron doesn't fill me with joy.

>>52900818
AOS dumb my friend.

>>52900960
Vehicles no longer exist at all.

>>52901322
You could do that now with a bit of luck.

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>>52901203
USR that will make the cut
>Shred
>Relentless
>FnP
>Skyfire
>Move Through Cover (movement not halved)
>Stealth

USR to be dropped
>Interceptor
>Lance
>Melta
>Armorbane
>Stubborn
>Poisoned (replace S value with dice roll)
>Shrouded

Pinning? We've got 12 pages of rules to work with. I just want Psychic shit to remain as fun as it is, but I can see so many spells up and disappearing.

>>52901359

You could but they only had 3HP not 10 wounds or whatever Preds will end up with.

Is this the /40kGeneral/ now?

>>52901367

They'll keep melta I think because so many weapons are named after it.

Probably something like 'against weapons with the vehicle key word you can re-roll to wound'.

>>52901376
Weapons will also do more damage per shot, so in theory it would work about the same.

>>52901392
/AgeofWarhammer40kGeneral/ now

>>52901322
i reckon we'll have MCs and tanks working like AoS monsters and have their own damage chart that cauaes them to lose states and weapon damage as they take wounds. A predator on 1 wound is probably a crappy unit.

>>52901367
Psykers are one of the absolute shittiest parts of 7e so I sure as hell hope it's getting changed entirely.

>>52900729

Also have just launched a new rank and file fantasy wargame called Runewars. Have played, very fun.

>>52901406
Or half range they deal more wounds.

>>52899194
7e was better than 6th, but worse than 5e.

>>52901338
No armor values???? If I shoot the back of a Predator it's the same as the front?????

>>52901338
vehicle is almost certain to be a key word. For easy interaction with what every they do for melta, haywire and poison weapons. as well as stuff like tech preists.

>>52900320
Sounds like your own fault for being so heavy into experimental rules.

>>52901427
it was speculation in an earlier thread but D6 damage or 2D6 at half range is straight forward and likely seeming way for them to go.

>>52901421
Thankfully, my gaming circle is made of mates who write casual, fair lists. No cheese for us, and I hope our fun isn't spoiled by those who needed a crutch to waac.

>>52900960
There's probably going to be special rules that effect To-Hit Melee rolls

>>52901438
maybe.
we know they're using modifiers for rolls now and we could get facings in that form.

+1 to wound rolls from behind or something.

>>52895383
I think you test on a d6 now, so without modifiers marines simply can't run away.

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>>52900960

>he thought walkers were vehicles

>>52901497
moral is now like AoS battleshock.
minis now run away on an individual basis and just become casualties rather than some form of falling back.

>>52890735

Wat?
Tell me more. Read all the FAQs and didn't see anything about this.

>>52901449
I've played them since Eye of Terror and always adapted as necessary. I just really liked the latest. Bought the special edition of the book and all.

>>52901138

Honestly, toughness matters a lot more than the WS chart.

>>52900278
>Even after buying your models and painting them you're still spending money on them

>>52901322
Seems like the way they're doing it now, Predators are finally going to be viable again.

>>52901225

Since actual 2 wound terminators have existed for 2 editions now (longer if you count obliterators) you'd realize that it's not a big deal since you have to remove wounded models first.

some more info from Pete Foley's twitter.

Alternating activations for combat like AoS appears to be in

Guard still have platoons

Legion & Chapter traits still around

Scatter dice gone along with templates

Fliers work like all other minis, each has own special rules

Psychic phase has changed, reveal coming later

Cover saves add to saving throw— AoS style

Can't shoot into or out of combat

Digital and physical books at launch, they have made lots apparently

Chaos and Imperium books similar to Grand Alliances in 40k, xenos more granular

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>>52900846
>No more D weapons
Good.

On another note, if meltaguns work like in Shadow War: Armageddon wouldn't that mean they've become superheavy flamers? In AoS multi-wound attack are applied to the whole unit and not per model, so if my Fire Dragons do d6 wounds each won't my enemy's army just melt away? Will my dream of a Fire Dragons-only army finally happen?

>>52901322
Predators are going to have like 8+ wounds if Dreadnoughts are an example to go by.

>>52901756
doubt it. in SW:A they still only hit one model. That one guarsmen is just turnbofucked by the melta.

plus they've talked about needing to use the right weapon for right job. Anti tank wepaons doing many wounds but only to 1 mini would fit in with that idea well.

>>52901727
>Fliers work like all other minis, each has own special rules

THANK FUCK. This is an improvement no matter what side of AoSification you're on.

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>Mfw they are getting rid of templates

>>52901756
>No more D weapons
as expected really.
we know stats are no longer capped at 10 and mutliple wounds is now a thing. so a turbolaser or something is probably just a "normal" weapon thats like S12 2D6 damage with a -6 save mod.

>tfw scions no longer a (shitty) standalone army

>>52900818
They're will be combat mods, so assume that there is some people fighting better than others. Grots will not be as good as Marines in combat.

>New edition
>Interested in getting back in it.
>Live in a gaming wasteland.

WHY

>>52901928
>tfw lgs just started stocking 40k again
I'm sorry anon. I knew your position until last month.

>>52901941
Worst bit is the gaming group I was with disbanded back when I started college due to an actual shop opening up.
Said shop then went into pure magic and the other place that apparently ran 40k just closed.

There is nothing in the area.

>>52901774

What I meant was once they've taken 9 wounds you just rotate them round so a fresh one is facing the attacker. So even after you've inflicted 27 wounds all 3 Preds are still alive.

>>52902003
I guess?

>>52902003

Except that Tanks and MCs will get weaker as they take wounds, so enjoy have 3 preds with BS1.

>>52902003
thats assuming wound allocation still works the same which we don't know about yet.

I like that people seem to think they can just pass the wound around in a squad.

AoS forces you to allocate to the same model until death, same thing will happen for 40k

>>52902096

We assume...

I don't assume anything when GW are involved though.

>>52902119
its a reasonable assumption though. it's an easy way to stop shenanigans and something 40k itself did in previous editions

>>52902119

If they're doing shit as fundamental as taking AOS's to-hit system, cover system, combat phase and armor save system it's pretty fair to assume they'll take their wound allocation system too


Also I like it because it just works like WHFB: in 90% of cases you choose who dies in your unit, removing the hassle of trying to keep your special weapons and sergeant from being picked off because of wound allocation rules. Sniper weapons obviously work differently.

>>52891403
Tzeentch a shit
Slaanesh is much better

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>>52901825
mfw they're getting rid of templates AND scatter dice

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just saw couple leaks
It took the AOS style for stats and what not
They elimitated the to hit chart system

>>52902498
That is bullshit. We have had templates and scatter dice since forever.

>>52902919
stats are much closer to 7e 40k than AoS. only change is Movment star instead of Iniative.

the old to chart was kinda pointless, prettt much everything was hitting everything else on 4+ anyway. We know modifiers are in and they're strating outside 3+ -5+ so hitting in CC is going to be more variable.

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>>52903017
I'm sorry you had to find out this way.

>>52903181
This is fucking horrible and i'm sticking to seventh.

>>52903211
Seventh is fucking horrible.

>>52903181

...I'll admit, I'm curious about how that will work. My SOB love themselves some templates.

>>52903211
K

>>52903211
it's not that bad.
templates and scatter dice was a whole lot of work and arguement to arrive at "this 1 shot hit a random number of dudes" just saying it hits say D6 minis or all minis within X inches of a certain point is a quicker less ambiguous method of getting functionally the same result.

its not a bad thing.

>>52903299
also, it'll turn deep strikes safer

>>52903269
Pulling this this out of my ass.
But they could do templateless flamers easily by just saying they hit (or roll to hit) all enemy models in the target unit in range.

>>52889923
>We don't know enough aboit the rules, from what I've seen, to claim they're dumbed down. Bloat isn't complexity.
Prior to these announcements I was worried they were going to go full Age of Sigmar, but what they've put out is actually making me hopeful. WS going away is a shame, but the command point things are actually going to be adding complexity.

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>>52894896
>>52894819
>>52894787

Honestly, if the new marines have those kinds of helmets, I would not mind.

Though, I prefer beakies over all other helmets. I would go full beak if I ever could. With bumpy pauldrons. Full mk VI.

I started at age 12, in 2002. My first set was a combat squad of pug faced tactical marines. Though when I first saw the original marines I dunno, I fell in love. They look to me like space knights. I love the beaks.

>>52903181
Funny I bought templates 3 days ago. Maybe I should buy a Riptide real quick as well.

>>52903211
good play your shitty edition

>>52903299
Templates are cool because it's something that differentiates the game from just being Yahtzee. Out of all of their options to speed the game up it's probably the worst.

>>52894777
What makes you think that there won't be hit modifiers in combat? Something like if opponents to his is less than yours, -1 modifier or some
Shit

>>52889805
Two wound terminators for the win!
Fingers crossed for 3 wound paladins xD

>>52903517
Unlikely, otherwise they could have just gone with a chart.

>>52901253
Yeah, but I was curious about their rules, cuz the Raven Wing seems to be good at bikes too.

>>52903529

This is actually pretty likely

Hero Characters will be 5 wounds standard most likely

>>52903545
we know to hit modifiers are in.

condensing the chart down to +1 if your WS is better, -1 if your WS is much worse gives functionally much the same thing.

>>52903694
+1 for better, -1 for under half and you have more the same thing.

>>52903211
Go back to 3/4th. It's much better. If you're not playing a current edition, why waste time with the second worst edition?

>>52903791
It's the one I started playing and it's the second most recent one. I just really like templates and armor.

>>52903825
So it's not about wanting to play something good, it's about you being afraid to leave your comfort zone. Got it.

>>52903825
I started playing back in 2nd. There were three different teardrop templates. Four if you count the psychic power one. There were four round blast templates. A foot-shaped template. One template was a set of four connected templates that rotated around each other based on D12 rolls.

Templates deserve the death they're getting.

>>52895262
I counter with 'turning rate radius' calcs and my silhouette overlaying targeting grid.

>>52895064
he's to busy being angry about things that ceased to be relevant all of 30 fucking years ago

>>52903472

Yeah, Yahtzee played on a 6x4 table with dozens of hand painted miniatures.

Totally the same without templates.

>>52903892
You forgot the odd half circle one that was used for the obscure force wave projecting Ork super science field gun.

>>52903889
Like, is there anyway I could work armor and templates into 8th? Because everything 8th seems ok.

>>52904154
No.

Follow the rules

>>52889805
The rule book got thicker over editions as they included stuff like scenarios and started bloating up with USR's to try to make things more consistent.

Now they promise confusing and inconsistent 'bespoke' rules for every unit.

Fact is, the number of rules you'll need to know to play a game will likely remain largely the same, but they'll be distributed between more sources.

We go from early third where you literally needed just the core book and your figures to eighth where you'll need your rules pamphlet, the scenario booklet, and your armies dossier.

Expect 'wha?' moments to increase over time as the system drowns in its own kruft.

>>52904205
But the "everything can hurt everything" mechanic is fucking retarded.

I have resolved myself that i will not play a single game tbis edition. Me and my friends will play 30k while it is still in 7th as well as 7th. But i dont care if it takes 4 years i will not roll a single damn dice for 8th

>>52904269
So you'll fit in fine.

>>52904214
>included stuff like scenarios
They've been including less scenarios (as well as less complex scenarios) over time, actually

3e's mission book was forty pages, it had 14 unique scenarios, several biome types as well as a barebones narrative ladder campaign. They've only been slashing shit since, and although 7e is the closest they've ever been to that with 12 """unique""" scenario types in the book, it's significantly simpler.

I hope they bury maelstrom objectives forever

>>52889805
Sounds great. Hard for me to bitch about free rules.

>>52889805

>core rules online for free
>Promising that army books will be cheaper
>Has point costs etc

So far, so good, right?

>>52904269
On a 6+, yes, it will be retarded. But they'll probably do the 7+, 8+, 9+ thing and at that point I don't think it'll be a problem. It'd take 36 lasguns to inflict one wound on an 8W Dreadnought, and if they do go back to 2nd-edition shooting then you won't get two shots if you're shooting within 12", just a +1 to hit (which means 27 to wound a dread).

>>52904586
in the Facebook comments GW said that while conscripts can wound a landraider it takes about 500 of them to be an actual threat.

>>52900630
Okay, so, how do you kitbash together some Maccabian Janissaries?
C'mon, that helmet's gotta be out there SOMEWHERE...

>>52904645
What a waste of time then, all that will do is eat up time rolling pointless dice for a less than 1% chance to do anything.

>>52904681
better than rolling all that dice with 0% chance to do anything.

This is a good thing

>>52904752
If you have a 0% chance you don't need to spend all that time and can just move on. Now you end up rolling 100's of dice just the off chance that maybe this will be in the 1 in a 100 game you take a wound off a LR.

>>52904792
If you are doing that, you are desperate because your stuff is wiped out. Stop thinking that you are forced to roll the dice. If you don't want to bother, then don't bother and go for an objective or some shit.

You are just trying to find faults for faults sake.

>>52904792

Better than the current state where you just go 'Well, I can't do anything' when you have the meltagun shoot a vehicle. It's always been an issue with special weapons in squads.

>>52889888
>they dumbed down the rules...

I didn't realize that you've already read the rules?
Please post pics!

>>52904813
And if my opponent wants to bother? Now i'm stuck waiting on his ass.

>>52904792
Why are you so bad at tabletop games that you're in that situation to begin with? You unit throwing 100s of dice should attack something else and leave the bigger target to your dudes with stronger weapons.

>>52904850
What if it's the only thing in range? Might as well just throw those dice at it.

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>>52904846
>how dare my opponent do stuff during his turn.
>the fucking travesty

>>52904846
Yup. Rolling dice takes such a long time.

>>52904892
It's the second longest task in the game behind movement.

>>52904869
So you chose to do it then, why the fuck are you bitching about your own choice then?

>>52904966
Why would my opponent not do the same thing? If we have to have a social contract not to bother, it's a poor mechanic, especially if the goal is to reduce game length.

>>52904979
Tabletop gaming may not be fore you if you believe rolling even 100 dice is something that just takes too long in the uncommon event that it comes up.

>>52904979
the stats shown so far and the rules discussed, along with existing AOS has shown that casualties happen at high rates. All that guardsmen that you are bitching about would die in droves in return fire.

Quit bitching.

>>52905000
>>52905012
It's time that could have been saved and it adds up. really don't see why you're so enamored about rolling dice for no reason.

>>52905025
No, you roll for the low chance, not no reason. Everyone deserves a chance to play the game.

Why are you so against people actually playing the game to completion instead of just quitting after hours of play after some lascannons die?

>>52900320
>I am fucking TERRIFIED right now. I modeled a LOT to IA13 rules
Same here

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>>52905139
I just know it, I just KNOW it will be them going

"New cultist rules with the death guard book!"
>Literally cultist with FNP and BS2
>NO marauders
>no large mortars
>no big tanks or renegade ogryns

>>52905048
Because it's not interesting? He's either already lost or just throwing dice for the sake of it. It's the exact same situation as deathstars in 7e and those aren't exactly liked either.

>>52894484
no you're not, gw won't invalidate their new mkivs and mkiiis

>>52905247
what the fuck are you on about?
>>52905240
>people should just bend over and die for my fun

>>52905278
Or we could move on and play a second game instead of dragging out the first one?

>>52905288
>>52905278
>>52905247
ok so the numarines in the leak are truescale yeah? but in the leak he has a box of current short squatting devastators

so these numarines aren't replacing the marine kit, they're something else

>>52905352
They're minis of the guy who actually shot President Kennedy.