Warhammer 40,000 General /40kAoSg/

>>52880867
First for hating AoS but loving the sound of 8th.

>>52880903
NECRONS, CLOWNS, AND BUGS GO HOME!

Does anyone really hate the AoS rules right now? I gave them a once over when they came out and thought they were fine. I thought it was the complete rape of the setting that upset people.

What new factions do we want in 8th?

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>>52880867
>tabula rasa approach with 12 pages core rules...
would love to hear what Andy Chambers thinks of this.

>>52880903
I get the feeling GW learned from the AoS release and has sorted out the good and bad changes to use for 40k

I kinda want to see the narrative battles more. See what kind of stories we can invent. All predicated on balanced units of course, but imagine a battle where you deploy 2000 points of guard in a column in the center of the board, then have 1000 points of Boys try to ambush them from both table edges.

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They fix Orks now?

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repeat of fourth edition, tanks are fucked

>>52880903
Motion seconded.

>>52880929
They have no variability. Shooting > 1st Deathstar Charge > Else. Only modifier is if your rules are newer, you're better.

>>52880929

Rules for AoS are great, but they wouldn't apply well to 40k.

>>52880867
>>52880903
AoS can fuck off but I am ready for 8th edition
Fight me

>>52880933
Didn't Chambers think current 40k is way too bloated which it is?

Are formations kill? Whered they say this?

I, for one, welcome our new AoS overlords.
Because at this point 40k can only go up.

>>52880950
Orks will be much much less fucked according to all the confirmed changes.

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Can I get any input on my basic bitch conversion? I wanted to get some depth on the bases so I'm goin to paint the conduit bits up like pipes and maybe add some aquilas and rivets to them. I wanted to make it look like Celestine picked up the banned off a dead Guardsmen sprawled on the pipe but I haven't quite finished that yet.

>>52880950
Yes but just the nuorkz who are bigger than your current orkz wich are obsolete now, box of five models for $50 burgerbucks

>>52880932
None
Fucking balance what we have
Unless tau auxiliaries become a separate thing

>>52880953
>Implying they are not already fucked
>Implying they will be worse
Way to prove you don't play 7th

>>52880932
squats and an entire vespid army

>>52880972
>Didn't Chambers think current 40k is way too bloated which it is?
he was gonna introduce some major changes for 4th, but GW didn't let him.
So they parted ways and he wrote Straship Troopers for Moongoose instead, with what is rumored to be basically the rules for what could have been 4th edition 40k.

>>52880984
I think the flag should point up a bit more.

I'm out of the loop, what's confirmed about 8th so far?

>>52881018
How were the rules for that

>>52881022
That was the best angle I could get it. The thing was a massive cunt to get glued on.

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> All the Imperial Armours are kill.

>>52881036
https://pastebin.com/HRHAyNQu

>>52881036
14 FOCs

>>52880932
Hrud, Rak'gol, or a Tau-friendly but not necessarily allied Demiurge.

>>52880932
Y'he'vesa GET!

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>>52880979
Oh you sweet boy, you don't even know how wrong you're

>>52881036
summary of the twitch stream
>>52878313

>8th edition FAQ:
https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/New-Edition-of-40K-FAQ.pdf

>play Night Lords
>give 3-5 penalty to fear
>totally worthless in 40k
>new edition coming
>changes to leadership as a whole
>its the 8th edition

Eighth for the Eighth boys!

Who am I kidding? Fear will still be 100% ignored by fucking everything and we'll be further reduced to the "lol raptors!!" legion instead

>>52880984
>Sisters of battle on titan sized toilet rolls/10
Why tho?

>>52881074
A "Xeno Mercenaries" codex would make me moist.

>>52881058
Everything from Forge World is getting updated too.

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>>52881083
Not him, but 40k has been downhill for a while. It needs a shake up, if only so that we can get the equivalent of experimental dnd 4e that leads to the much better 5e.

>>52881096
>Formations are gone
>Formations are fucking gone
>FORMATIONS ARE FUCKING GONE

ALL PRAISE TO THE GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND. BACK TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF FOC, THANK FUCK FOR THAT.

>>52881053
never played it myself, but I heard good things about them.
Downloaded them a while ago, but haven't gotten around to reading them yet.

The game only had three factions though, so it didn't last too long.
There are still people looking for miniatures from it from time to time though.

>>52881083

I do enjoy how nobody is really singing the praises of AoS or 8th but rather assuming 7th is so bad it couldn't possibly get worse.

>>52880867
To be fair, I'm sure I could fit all of 7th Edition's core rules on to 12 pages too if I didn't include any special or model-specific rules. Move everyone 6", each unit can only shoot one unit once, then roll some bones and charge.

>>52881127
I'm painting them up as pipes, it's to make them more dynamic.

>>52881148
not just FOC but 14 different types of FOC with their own special rules!

>>52880984
Why are they all standing on waterslide tubes?

>>52881148
Did they actually say formations are gone? They just said "heres 14 FoCs"

>>52880997
after the current dex, will buy without thinking twice, if they fit the current aesthetic.

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I can't wait to see this cute guy's new rules :)

>>52881181
Well every book that the formations are published in is being invalidated.

>>52881196
Kek, stop ruining the meme

>>52881107
Still better than WB rules wise, at least. Fluff wise I prefer WB, but the NL TL rules seem pretty okay to me. Raptors as troops is somehing I'd gladly swap Possessed as troops, since raptors can spam fast meltaguns with melee and deepstrike capability.

>>52881170
And I'm sure only 3 of them will actually be useful.

>>52881240
>"b-but muh New Games Workshop tm!!!"

>>52880867
I've got a question about power levels, which I've been thinking about since I messed around with the DoW 3 beta. How strong is one space marine compared to an ork? Can they routinely carve through multiples before being over come or is it a more closely contested fight than that? Asking in context of either the lore or the table top games.

>>52881275
Lore Marines go through Boyz like a hot knife through butter. On the table? Dice games dictate varied results. Specialized Marines vs. Specialized Boyz usually goes to the Specialized Marines pretty hard though.

>>52881220
Oh yea, they're better than the WB rules for sure, which sadly isn't saying much. What's funny though is thatword bearers are in last place, leaving Night Lords to be second to last, which is 8th place. Shit, at least we get stealth. Hell, our relics are decent (SBP is busted on a tzeentch Prince), and our Decurion is pretty solid. I don't really use raptors as troops much because I'm always using a Warband, though.

Still, all that's going away with 8th, so here's hoping.

>>52880867
I thank Guliman everyday for the impending AoSification of 40k. Long live the Age of Guilliman!

Anyone know how long FW will lag being GW? Excited for 8th but a little sad that my R&H will be unplayable for a while. So glad to have more than 1 army though.

>>52881220
One day anon, possessed might be as good as gal'vorbak from 30k.

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Loving all the negativity. It makes me feel better about myself when people get sad about nothing :)

Losers crying over 8ty edition already are in the same boat as SJWs crying about random comments on Facebook :)

>>52881240
I think it'll depend a lot on the faction. I wouldn't be surprised of we got something similar to Castellans that encouraged loading up on basic troops, but had a tradeoff of needing more HQs and not having as many Elites.

>>52881329
They said in the live post that FW are all day one release as well.

>>52881107
Isn't fear decent in 30k since marines dont get ATSKNF and other morale ignoring rules?

>>52881107
I for one hope the edgelords get squatted. I know it's not your fault and I know their lore is kind of sort of interesting but I've not met IRL an NL player who wasn't a truly obnoxious cunt (sample size 5).

>>52881369
Off topic post, this is 40kg not 30kg

>>52881365
Holy shit. I was not expecting that.

I hope this edition makes people rage quit so I can buy armies from cry babbies

>>52881365
I'm waiting for them to conveniently "forget" the Vendetta

Are the rumors that there will be plastic Steel legion true?

It amazes me how but blasted people are about as Vehicles getting monsters creature rules, considering that monsters creatures are statistically more durable than all vehicles, and have been for years.

>>52881395
Yes, it is very exciting. I am worried about my >>52881203 plague hulk of Nurgle, as it is no longer available on the webstore. They did specifically say that "all of your FW models" will be getting rules.

>>52881369

Yes, that's a big thing in 30k, and arguably NL biggest strength.

>>52881383

>5 NL players
Holy shit. I'm literally the only one in my group.

>>52881430
They were never true.

>>52881329
You should have your new 8th Ed rule sometime near 9th ed

>>52881432
In AoS even out if print models got rules

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So I recently started to look into the Badab War again.
>see this

Where are the Badab War books? Did FW only sell them for a limited time to begin with?
Or am I a silly cunt that just can't find shit?

>>52881431
It's the
> but muh immershun
crowd, for the most part.

>>52881275
On the tabletop, one basic marine is probably worth around three basic ork boys. In the lore, he can beat dozens of them.

>>52881482
Out of print

>>52881431
I'm going to enjoy charging my vehicles into things and tying them up in melee.

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>>52881475
Thanks for reinvigorating my boner good sir :)

>>52880997

It's funny that your trying to be a downer and posting le-ironic epic dank maymays but as someone who played orks for 8 years and quit 2 years ago since the game got so bloated and generally shit what you suggest would have me buying "nuorks" again.

>>52881482
Just get the PDFs for fluff. All codices are invalid for rules shortly anyway.

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>Angron has fanboys who want to paint him as a dindu
>literally the only way to do this is to make The Emperor, all the loyalists, the entirety of human race and every objectively good and positive value in the universe be evil and impure
>they take that route anyway
Derp for the retard god, amrite?

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>>52881475

Not all of them no have an oop wood elf model with no rules. Pic related.

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>>52880867
Wanted to pick up a Deathwatch Kill Team box. Should I just wait until 8th Ed comes out?

>>52881437
it is 5 over 20 odd years, like 1 in warhammer club at school, 1 in my post school bumming about, 2 at my old LGS and 1 at my current group. I don't mind playing with them but as people holy fuck.

>>52881504
Vehicles will probably have a special rule that lets you just disengage with them.

But otherwise, absolutely. Now I can actually crush heretics beneath the armored treads of my Land Raider instead of just making them move 2d6 inches.

>>52881540
NO FUCK YOU EMPEROR BETRAYED ANGRON AND MY LEGION WHAT THE FUCK YOU FUCKING TRAITORS HORUS DID NOTHING WRONG

>>52881170
And every new release will add even more and probably Faction specific ones!

Maybe even with limitations for what you can choose to keep it fluffy!

Maybe even give them unique faction-specific rules for it!

>>52881540
I dunno, I like Angron BECAUSE he's basically a complete fucking retard who did everything wrong. Really the only defense you can give anything he's done is that he was just too insane to know better.

>>52880929
its definitely the butt hurt over whfb being replaced by AoS. AoS actually has pretty sweet rules that I think would make 40k much better. Shooting first is way too good in 40k right now, and the back and forth system that AoS uses would fix this.

>>52881579

Ah, ok. I've literally never met another NL player. My one friend was always EC, the other guy I knew played Black Legion, and my other friend played 1ks. Other than that, I think I've seen one WE and 2 KDK as far as chaos Marines go.

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>>52881611
Mortarion dindu nuffin rong. It was all Typhon's fault

>>52881503
thanks
>>52881529
I already got them, but was hoping to put the dead tree version into my bookshelf.
I just buy the books I like/seem worth it to me and the Badab wars have a lot of fluff in it that I really enjoyed.

Oh well... guess I won't have to spring for them then.
Thanks, guys.

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>>52881540
>Borderline insane as a result of the Nails and a horrible life
>Emperor teleports him away from the decisive battle in the slave uprising and refuses to send him back
>Could've just fought alongside his son and deployed his own forces
>Everyone Angron cared about in his shitty life died without him
>Angron is now truly insane

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>>52881058
will this cat ever find happiness?

>>52880932

croneworld and rak'gol

>>52881611
>EMPEROR BETRAYED MY LEGION
The war hounds got fucked by angron. Just like the death guard got fucked by mortarion, and the word bearers got fucked by lorgar.

The emperor didn't slaughter the command staff and drill nails into the skulls of every trooper while banging on about how much he hated the nails.

>>52880932
Imperials and Rebels

>>52881636
You can still just shoot first in AoS, the melee game, where shooting is king, and you can shoot into melee, while in melee.

>>52880932
>Exodite Eldar
>Squats/Demiurg/whatever the fuck GW calls them now
>chaos xenos
>Red Corsairs supplement/tactics

>>52881527
>>52881196
Third orkfag here, can confirm.

>>52881240
Probably about one or two might be useful generally, and each Grand Alliance will have their own FOC's that are pretty useful and fluffy, and then each faction will have their own actually useful and played more often than not FOCs.

>>52881662
>The Emperor is supposed to risk his personal forces against an army that was fully capable of killing a Primarch for a bunch of irreparably damaged bloodthirsty killers
>when he already brokered peace with the planet's rulers

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>>52881336
Yeah the "it's totally AoS guys" arguments are becoming more and more hilarious. >>52880867 is a good example. Provides a screenshots which confirms that : The core rules for 8th edition, which DOES NOT include the rules for how you build your army for each type of play and other things, are 12 pages.

The rules for AoS, which DOES include how you build your army, are 4 pages. So the basic, core rules for 8th edition are already at least three times more complicated than AoS. Hell I doubt the core rules for 7th edition, without the pages for army composition, missions, weapons and wargear, etc are much more than 12 pages.

Next up you'll have AoS haters claiming 8th edition is exactly like AoS based on the fact both systems use D6, mark my words.

>>52881611
>literally wept at what he had done the second his mind was his own again
Kek, Chaosfags have literally no legs to stand on or should i say arms

>>52881798

>three times the pages is three times "the complexity"

I genuinely can't imagine being this dumb

>>52881823
Why would they stand on their arms? Is that a gay thing?

>>52881846
Yet you don't use full stops? You seem pretty dumb to me.

>>52881547

Nice, what is he? A Wardancer?

>>52881136

But they were nice books, I doubt a PDF will do them justice.

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>>52881862

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>>52881676
>The emperor didn't slaughter the command staff and drill nails into the skulls of every trooper while banging on about how much he hated the nails.

True. But he caused the emotional predisposition that lead to this self destructive behaviour.
The final battle that he was in could have been a cathartic moment for Angron.
Instead it cemented the cynical outlook of a disturbed personality by shattering all his hopes and ambitions and putting him into the exact situation fighting to escape from again just as a slave to another master in an even bigger war.

This quote from american psycho comes to mind to describe him
>My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone; in fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others.

>>52881846
Well you are the guys judging a game's complexity by page count, so I hoped it was an argument you would be able to understand.
But appearently you're only allowed to do that when you're comparing similiarities between AoS and 8th.

>>52881720
you can shoot first with 1 unit, then it bounces back and forth until all units have shot. AoS captures the feeling of a battle way better than a full control turn based system.

>>52881924
>>52881788

>>52881798
>Hell I doubt the core rules for 7th edition, without the pages for army composition, missions, weapons and wargear, etc are much more than 12 pages.

Wew lad.

From the first rules page where the stat profile is explained to the last rules page is currently one hundred and three pages. This is excluding everything about mission rules, special rules, equipment, and terrain.

What GW are doing here is paring down around one hundred pages of basic principles, phase rules, and unit type rules into a little over one-tenth of that. Even assuming that you could already drop maybe ten pages by just taking out the pictures of random armies, that's a lot of work. Even dropping the unit type rules only brings it down to 57 pages.

>>52881941
That sounds a lot better. The amount of turn one firepower some armies can put out has the potential to wipe a ridiculous amount of points off the board before they can even do anything.

>>52881941

> AoS captures the feeling of battle way better...

> Double Turns...
> 360 noscope bows...
> Everyone in a scrum in the middle...

Yeah... I believe you...

>>52881788
The point is not to save those gladiators, the point is to guarantee Angron's loyalty. He was going to put Angron in charge of what amounted to a twentieth of his forces. The emperor wouldn't have lost many soldiers, anyway. He had the twelfth legion and a fleet with him.

>>52881949
Yeah, hearing your dad is a coward who made peace with the enemies you've been doing damn well against despite being a random gladiator sure makes things better.

>>52881949
Be that as it may, the whole situation showcased a remarkable lack of empathy on the Emperor's side.
Not even a few session of family therapy...
I mean come on. How do you expect a guy to feel after what the big E did to the big A?

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I'm sceptical. Compared to other lightweight skirmish rulesets like Song of Blades and Heroes and Open Combat, AoS is pretty fucking poor.

I have a load of old Marines from Rogue Trader to 4th edition in various states of dilapidation, might salvage them into an easy to paint force like Astral Claws. Not that they'll be much more than cheerleaders for the next big plastic kit™

>>52881972

When will people realise they're doing this to cut costs in rules development. It's not about making the game better for us or more concise its just them following their mission statement to its logical conclusion, ie. 'we're a model company not a games company'. They make all their money from the models, so they want to cut rules to the bone but still give people a 'game' so they can sell Timmy his 3 Riptides.

50 Pages is a concise and precise rule set, 12 is an oversimplification and 4 was a joke.

>>52881148
As if we ever needed Formations to spam units!

>15 Heavy Tanks in an army is still perfectly possible in a guard army, just leave 120 points for vets.

Hopefully they announce that they're axing squadrons as well. I love my tanks, but honestly parking lot players make me sick to my stomach. TANKS DO NOT FIGHT LIKE THAT!

>>52881941
What? No....


"In your shooting phase you can shoot with
models armed with missile weapons.
Pick one of your units. You may not pick
a unit that ran or retreated this turn. Each
model in the unit attacks with all of the
missile weapons it is armed with (see
Attacking). A er all of the models in the
unit have shot, you can choose another unit
to shoot with, until all units that can shoot
have done so."

Those are your dudes shooting. Not your dudes, their dudes, your dudes, their dudes.

>>52881997
>>52881998
>>52882005
Then blame shitty writing. Honestly, i myself find it hard to believe that The Big E himself couldn't have personally come down there wearing nothing but a loincloth and stared everyone to death.
Also, Emps being a shitty dad was never in question, though it comes from expecting his centuries old demigod sons to not act like fucking manchildren. He DID care for Angron, and i remember reading somewhere that he commissioned a way to remove the Nails from the Thousands Sons, and literally as soon as they found it The Heresy started and everything went to shit.
Angron, and his fans come off as huge whiners, blaming literally everything else. Just say Angron was insane and be done with it.

>>52881874

I think it's a she, actually. Pretty sure those are bewbs. It was just a generic hero/lord I think, and I had always liked the model but never saw it in store. Then when GDubs put it on their Last Chance list, I finally ordered it. I just used it as a Hero because at the time, Lords were wizards or you were losing.

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>>52881432
I may not like my tanks no longer playing like proper tanks. But at least this baby might finally have a place in my army!

>>52881973
this has been my biggest issue with 40k, and I've played for over 15 years. The rules have changed a lot here and there but the one thing that has never been adressed is how fucking OP it is to go first in 40k, like you said you can wipe out half the guys army before he even moves.

In AoS both players do their movement, then both players shoot, then both players charge, then both players choose which combats they want to resolve first. People who say AoS has no tactical depth must not be very tactical people.

>>52881988
40k has a lot more shooting than AoS, so it wouldn't turn into a big scrum shit fest (not that theres anything wrong with that, faggot).

shooting into and out of combat also makes perfect sense, but I dislike how theres no penalties for that in AoS. You should be able to hit your own men accidentally, and if you shoot out of combat then the guy fighting you should get an attack bonus of some sort.

>>52881941

What?

>actually being so fucking stupid you couldn't read 4 pages right

GW's core market of easily pleased consumers, ladies and gentlemen.

>>52881220
Honestly senpai word bearers have the potential to be pretty nasty. Daemon summoning is pretty powerful

>>52882115

For someone that doesn't play is it mandatory that you do the shooting phase then charge phase? Like can an army just try and shoot-phase as long as possible or try and charge phase as soon as possible?

>>52882106

Oh yeah I see now, I think it may just be an old 5th to 6th edition Lord. The horn made me think she was part of a command group.

>>52882103
>>52882136
thats how me and my friends play it, since AoS encourages you to use house rules that make your game more enjoyable. even with the actual written rules you still roll to see who shoots first instead of 1 guy getting to move/shoot/assault before the other guy can do anything.

>>52882104
>Angron, and his fans come off as huge whiners, blaming literally everything else. Just say Angron was insane and be done with it.
People who are invested in an army and an army's background defending their chosen faction against being reduced to a single clichee laden adjective is hardly whining.

Deathguard are more than just zombies.
And Thousand sons are more than just another flavor of undead.

'being done with it' seems like a phrase oddly out of place in any hobby, where the whole point is to waste time in the first place.

>>52882192
You don't need to shoot if you don't want to, but you can't shoot after assault has been declared.

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>>52882104
The entire reason I chose to rebut what you were saying was because I feel disgusted when people try to act like shitty writing isn't the culprit for everything wrong in HH. It's stupid to place blame on the primarchs when the emperor is written as a remarkably stupid psychopath. I wouldn't even care if the emperor were just a psychopath, as long as he wasn't a STUPID psychopath. FUCK that's bad writing.

>>52881998
>enemies you've been doing damn well against
u wot

he'd been doing horribly against them all his life and was about to get slaughtered in the mountains when the emperor showed up

>>52881431
it hurts me, I enjoyed the vehicle rules but I'm willing to try this

what really doesn't run for me is the lack of synergy between factions

>>52882231

That seems like it'd really gimp any non melee units like guardsmen or Crons or Tau. Is it across the board assault or unit by unit? I can't fathom why you wouldn't be able to shoot as a tau fireteam off on the flank when nobody is assaulting you because down the line someone is assaulting the kroots.

>>52882211
Nothing wrong with that, but this was all about whether people liked the AoS rules, not your homebrew.

>>52882211

>thats how me and my friends play it, since AoS encourages you to use house rules that make your game more enjoyable
>this game is better, we ignore the mechanics duh

Jesus mate, you and your brainiac mates could play something like Song of Blades and Heroes and tinker with that, you'd enjoy it more.

>>52882115

Anon, there's no fucking way anyone should be able to shoot out of a combat.

That is just the dumbest shit I've heard all day.

>>52882243
Not the person you're responding to, but: He did fucking great with the resources he had. Yeah, he was basically doomed, but Wrecking Shit to Manpower ratio was high.

>>52882230
I see what you mean.
Also, The Sons are far more tragic imo.
>>52882232
>let a chaos worshiping cuck edgelord with daddy issues write the dad character of 40k
What did GW mean by this?

>>52882268
You have severely misunderstood how rules and phases work

>>52882288
>>52882304
fair enough, but even the base rules (guidelines) for AoS make for more entertaining game than just "lol I went first half ur army is ded XDDDD"

>>52882306
it makes perfect sense tho, stupid yes, leaves you vulnerable to the guy your fighting yes, but can physically be done.

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>>52880867
So they mentioned in the stream that Chapter Tactics would still be a thing with certain rules and force org charts to reflect the differences between the Chapters for the loyalists.

Is it safe to say that CSM will get the same thing in a similar manner to Traitor Legions?

>>52882327

Nigga
>>52882192
>For someone that doesn't play

What I am wondering is if the charge phase or shooting phase are across the board or unit by unit. Unless a shooting unit like an artillery piece gets to participate in the shooting phase but come charge phase it cant' do anything but sit idly by.

>>52882338
>"lol I went first half ur army is ded XDDDD"
That's GWs fault for not being able to balance shit. And really you only encounter situations like this against certain armies/lists.

>>52882342
yes

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>>52882323
Dan Abnett is a chaos fanboy with daddy issues?

>>52882268
well overwatch exists, and armies like tau have supporting fire for overwatch. but to keep the game as simple as it can be they have phases for all of this stuff just like any other game. You do all your shooting in the shooting phase because it removes complications and arguments.

>>52882338

So if an Orc was about to cave your skull in you would happily lean over and shoot something 50 meters away?

It can't be done, a persons own survival instinct would make it impossible.

>>52882323
>let a chaos worshiping cuck edgelord with daddy issues write the dad character of 40k
>What did GW mean by this?

I like how ADB writes, I like that he tries to humanize the traitors, it eludes me who thought that such a huge chaosfag could be a reasonable choice to write the leader of the loyalists

Will this affect Kill Team?

Are there Kill Team rules in pdf form in the links? Spent half an hour and couldnt find them...

Every list should deploy at least 70 Basic Troops or about 6 to 14 squads of basic infantry. Discuss.

>>52882366
it is GW fault, and I believe they're trying to fix that with this new edition, which is why im excited for it.

at this point I think any change to 40k will be good, im sick of 4 armies dominating the scene and games being decided by what you brought instead of how you played.

>>52882403

Do you mean shadow war?

>>52882203

Nah, def a character of sorts. I'm fairly certain is was "Wood Elf Lord with Sword and Spear." I'm glad I got it, though.

>>52882377

Alright thanks for the clarification. So it's kind of asymmetrical when it comes to the chronology - you're left to assume some of the shooting happened during the melee, some of the melee happened during the shooting. I assumed the phases were more about proximity, can't shoot units in melee like I heard for warhammer fantasy (With the skaven unique business with their slaves), but that just meant you wanted to close distance ASAP as melee or keep distance ASAP as ranged.

>>52882383
>it can't be done
ever heard of self sacrifice and heroism? just because you can't fathom making an unselfish move doesn't mean everyone else is physically incapable of doing so.

>>52882375
>Dan Abnett wrote Master of Mankind

>>52882409
70 is way too many.

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>>52882383
>So if an Orc was about to cave your skull in you would happily lean over and shoot something 50 meters away?
What, the ones with I2? I bet I could finish my breakfast before he could finish raising his fist!

Let's talk release dates. What day are you expecting 8th pre-orders/release?

I'll say May 27 book pre-order and core rules/factions updates sneak peek and June 3 is actual release day with full rules release/books on sale.

>>52882355
It goes like this

>Movement phase, everything that wants to move moves
>Shooting phase, everything that wants to shoot shoots
>Assault phase, everything that can charge charges

Repeat for each player on each turn.

If some Kroot get locked in a fight, they fight each assault phase, but the shooting phase still happens every turn for everyone else

>>52882418
Tomato tomahto, yeah, Shadow War

>>52882403

GW Kill Team was basically a bland excuse to chuck two old unpopular sprues together, basically died when Shadow Wars was announced.

Heralds of Ruin Kill Team will probably carry on.

>>52882438

Your fucking brain couldn't move fast enough you idiot, once they're in melee they're like a few feet away from each other within 1 or 2 seconds he's going to be on you. You can't aim and shoot a rifle under that stress in that amount of time to any accuracy.

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>>52882389
>let's give some depth to the traitors, they are half of the most important figures in the setting after all
>ok, i like where you're going with this...
>also the Emperor is literally evil and incompetence incarnate and here's my special OCDONUTSTEAL daemon that's totally stronger then him

All these people complaining about AoS who've clearly never played it.

>b-but muh lore!

The lore wasn't good enough to convince you to keep WHFB alive was it so you clearly didn't care that much did you?

I'd rather have a good game with shit lore than a shit one with good lore.

>b-but muh complexity!

Being complex doesn't make a game good. 40K is easily one of the most bloated systems on the market. It's clunky and full to bursting with 30 year old mechanics that serve only to detract from the game and that GW's competitors dropped from their products years ago or never had them to begin with.

That fact that GW seem to have finally recognised this and are doing something about it is great news.

>>52882437
yea pretty much. its a table top game so your imagination has to play a large role in how it all goes. Obviously a guy with a machine gun isn't going to shoot 1 bullet and then wait for his enemy to shoot back, but if you rolled 30 dice for each guy with a gun it would just be silly.

>>52882415
They're trying to fix it in a way that doesn't actually address why it happened. It was a problem because of shit like Eldar being able to spam scatbikes.

Getting tabled turn 1 is also, at least in part, dependent on how the table is setup. With enough cover and los blocking terrain it's difficult to pull off.

>>52882409
Depends on the game size, but I would agree that about half of any given list should be infantry of some sort.

>>52882451
I2 doesn't matter if he's charging you. Hits first on the charge.

>>52882464

It's just there was a game called kill team released a few years ago as a PDF.

SW will be unaffected as far as I know since everything is in the book. They might not sell the templates anymore though but there are a lot of 3rd parties that do them.

They have their own thread with a scanned book, the ebook isn't out until Saturday.

>>52882475
arm chair psychologists are the best. are you trying to tell me that in the history of war, no human has ever sacrificed themselves to save another human? or have you simply forgot what emotions are? whens the last time you ever felt love for someone?

>>52882503
Why would you let slow orkz charge you.

>>52882484
>Being complex doesn't make a game good.
Neither does being "fast and simple". Literally nobody thinks 40k isn't bloated, they just don't want it to be overly simplified.

>>52882438
>>52882383
>>52882338

LotR shooting into combat sort of made sense. Trying to pick out a Terminator fifty yards away whilst someone tries to turn you into a chainsaw kebab is fucking dense.

>>52882451

New edition will basically have chargers striking first, with exceptions for terrain and the odd special rule like grenades imaginably.

>>52882366
Lol do you tourney?

>>52882534
It has nothing to do with emotions. Try aiming at something while being hit in the face with a stick.

>>52882488
scatbike spam ruins the game as a whole, but getting tabled turn 1 is more because of multiple blast weapons getting to tee off first, I think. yes cover and terrain is a huge X factor, but it still happens too often for us to say that going first ins't the biggest advantage in the game, or at least one of the biggest advantages.

>>52882534
>mfw medal of honor recipients who jumped on a grenade were just unlucky clumsy fucks who tripped

>>52882552
Does it matter? Most armies aren't going to table you turn 1. Shit like eldar being able to fuck your shit in turn one is because GW wrote a shit codex for them.

>>52882534

Sorry mate but you're quite dim apparently. Uninhibited shooting in/out of combat is just really lazy rule mechanics from a self-proclaimed toy company.

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>>52882383

>>52882551
>>52882562
>getting charged by huge ork
>see your buddy about to be killed 50 feet away
>say fuck it and turn to shoot a desperation shot
>ork runs you through your chest
>your shot hit
>your friend is saved
>you can die happily

but this literally physically metaphorically cannot ever happen ever right?

>>52880932
consolidate Skitarii and AdMech (there's no way this isn't going to happen)
consolidate Inquisition, Sororitas, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes

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>>52882534

Fuck me, this is yielding some gold.

> SnapShot

> He was a guardsmen born with special powers. He was a better shot than all his classmates in the Imperial academy. He served in the special Orc hunters fighting squad and personally killed Mork in melee while doing the mad minute on Gork from across the battlefield.

>>52882582
>multiple blast weapons getting to tee off first
Not really that much of an issue if you position your army half decently.

Granted I'm not against a back and forth turn, honestly I'd prefer it. I just don't think it's the solution to the problems 40k has. They can have the best core rules in the world but that won't matter as long as the make one or two armies broken as shit.

>>52882615
>Uninhibited
which I agreed with in my original post. You should be able to shoot in and out of combat, but there should also be penalties for doing so.

>>52882552

Do you tourney?

Why when it's apparently so dull, putting half your army back in the box?

If not, why bring them up?

>>52882634
Not often enough to be a consistent game mechanic, where you can happily snipe targets while an ork rips you apart.

>>52882582
Scatbike spam is also easily fixed with errata to bring it back to the 6th edition days of 1 heavy weapon for every 3 bikes in the squad.

I'm and Eldar player and I think whoever the hell wrote that was high as fuck or just wanted something to grind tau into the dust.

>>52882615
>Hey lets add even more boring and uninteresting rules to make our game "more realistic"
>I'm sure fans will enjoy more "realism" in exchange for longer and less smooth games.

>>52882649
the broken armies is another huge part of why 40k is shit atm, so I really do hope they address that as well. having some armies be better than others in every way is just ridiculous, all armies should be able to beat all armies on any given day. I don't mean an army of troops should be able to take out an army of knights, but orks should be able to table eldar as often as eldar table them.

>>52882634

It's a possibility, but you're not thinking hard enough about the mechanics of completely free shooting in/out of combat in a wargame.

>>52882548
Nothing we've seen makes it seem simplified.
AoS is just as complex, but the complex has been shifted to be more forgiving to non-autists and actual battlefield choices.

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>>52880867
So if there aren't going to be templates in 8th what boon will the Iron Warriors get for their Legion Tactics?

>>52882657

Shooting into combat, yes with a 50/50 chance to hit your own men, the shooting squad needs to pass a LD test and the squad in melee has a negative to its LD for that turn.

Shooting out of combat should never occur, with the exception of a special character but even then it seems stupid.

>>52882478
I only read Helreach, which was pretty decent as far as 40k fiction goes

Though to be honest I think most Black Library fiction is shit.
There are some good books, but most of the writing is pretty terrible.

>>52882740
I've said multiple times it shouldnt be free shooting, there should definitely be penalties.

lowered BS, attacks of opportunity from the unit you're engaged with, being able to hit your own men accidentally etc

4 pages of rules is a meme perpetuated by people who don't play AoS and have no understanding of how it works.

If you include rules for matched play and missions AoS has 14 pages of rules, 8 without missions.

And then you have the fact that every unit in the game has self contained rules and abilities, as do the individual factions and wider allegiances.

This all cuts down on how many rules the game itself needs and saves needlessly repeating information.

>>52882715
They're never gonna achieve evenly balanced armies ever with the amount of unit variety there is, but it should be damn easy to make them more balanced that it is now

>>52882548

Good job I never said that then ;^)

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>MFW DakkaDakka are doing a better effort of pre-release discussion than you lot
Step up chan, you are making fools of yourselves

>>52882793

Well in 40K we have 100 pages of rules, we don't count every codex when we say that so why should we do the same for AoS?

>>52882783
Maybe they'll just be able to roll twice and choose the better when rolling the d3/d6 to figure out how,many hits the template weapons get. Would also have the bonus of making them better with flamers and non-ordnance blasts.

>>52882783

>+1 to hit for using mental models!
>rerolling 1s for screeching IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT through a tin can!

>>52882478
Some pretty shitty green text "evidence" there.

>>52881387
Oh fuck off, it was a comparison.

>>52882747
But in AoS from what a lot of professed AoS players have said, literally any army can beat any other army. If that is the case why bother building an army if your choices don't matter?

I can't win a MTG pro tour with my draft deck but I don't think that's unfair.

>>52882487

Looking into it the phase system doesn't sound all that bad. I can understand the whole

I assume a player's turn involves every unit, not "A's unit #1 goes, B's unit #1 goes, A's Unit #2 goes"?

>>52882790
That's because it's mostly failed writers and autists projecting.

>>52882657
Couldn't they just do something simple like say that you can't shoot when you're within the range of any enemy's melee attack options? that way unengaged models in the back can still shoot, but the ones getting the heads stoved in are too busy trying to not die.

>>52882784
>KDK can shoot their own faggots to generate extra blood tokens

yessss

>>52882790
It's cheap scifi. IDK why people complain about bad writing. you know what you're going to get going in.

>>52882841
I'm sorry?

>>52882681
>yfw they literally only did it because they had huge empty spaces in the new Eldar bike sprue so they tossed scatter lasers in the holes and changed the rules to match the box

>>52882792

So to smooth out the 12 page game, you're going to add a fistful of modifiers to remember for the rare occasion where a miniature might want to shoot out of combat. Except because you've made it a mechanic now, so every Devestator/Fire Warrior squad will use it to shoot out of combat most of the time.

Smart.

>>52882838
I'm actually okay with this. Do I get any boons if I make nine of my friends beat another to death for "not being as good friends as the Ultramarines"?

So are they discontinuing Elysians or something? FW has them listed as 'no longer available'.
I just bought a Tauros Venator and was looking to get some vets to go with it...

>>52882926

Oh yes, you get +1 bravery for the turn!

>>52882914
I dunno, after Ynnari I just assume someone at GW gets off to making the most bullshit rules they can for Eldar.

>>52882909
I have seen all sorts of stories/media torn apart into shitty green text of the posters opinions shoved in and the things exaggerated to help their cause regardless of the actual quality of the said media.
It proves nothing.

>>52882914
I don't have any new bikes so I wouldn't know that. I had to go steal scatter lasers from my falcons and wave serpents when I got the new codex (obviously can't steal them from war walkers) magnets are awesome btw.

>>52882823

Because AoS is a different game with a fundamentally different structure.

Dismissing it because "it only has 4 pages of rules" demonstrates that you don't understand how it's rules are laid out.

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>>52882969

>>52882958

FW does "last chance to buy" so if they are out of stock, they are simply restocking or repairing the mold. I have that page set as my home page and they haven't put anything there for months. Last items to be discontinued were some Dreadnought stuff and some Knight bundles.

GW's FAQ also said all current FW models will be supported in 8E.

IDIOT!

>>52882969
Oh it is beyond a doubt that Kelly (who plays Eldar himself and writes their codex every time) gets off to making his army the most brokent thing there ever was.

If you don't like the new rules what's stopping you from still playing 7th edition?

>>52882878
the combat phase actually does go A's unit#1 B's unit#1. As a result you can kill off certain things before they get to attack, but both players are aware of this and will choose their combat orders accordingly. Since theres no iniative in AoS, this is how they resolve fighting.

lets say 3 units from each player are engaged in 3 seperate assaults.

>player A chooses unit 1 to attack player B's unit 2
>player B decides to use his unit #3 to attack A's unit #2
each unit can only make its attacks once, so you basically get to take turns striking first in different combats, and the fun part comes in deciding what you want to do with that. should your lord attack his units of elites first? or should your elites try and wipe out a dragon he has? etc

>>52883007
Also plays nids

>>52882715
>armies should be able to beat all armies on any given day. I don't mean an army of troops should be able to take out an army of knights, but orks should be able to table eldar as often as eldar table them.
That's simply not going to happen. Think about the complexities of making sure that any two armies, which are not mirrors of each other, can table their opponents with equal probability in a game where movement and use of cover are not predictable or automatic in any way. Now take that same amount of effort and double it just by adding another army, because now you have to balance A against B AND B against C AND A against C. Then double that effort for a fourth army (A vs B, C, D and B vs C, D and C vs D), and so on. This isn't even including the possibility that some of these armies can mix and match.

Some armies are always going to be more difficult to play at a high level or more reliant upon good rolls. The best you can hope for is a game where the strategies/armies/lists with the highest potential upside are not simultaneously the easiest to pull off effectively.

>>52882993

I don't dismiss it because it has 4 rules, I dismiss it because of double turns.

> INB4 he tries to explain the tactical depth of the double turn.

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>>52883005
>All current FW models supported

I can't wait to see what pic related does in 8th.

>>52882892
they could do a lot of things, and that would be one that makes the most sense. Guys that are piling into a melee but not actually fighting would still be able to shoot stuff

>>52883015
You don't get /tg/

>12 page core rules
Am I right in assuming 200+ pages worth of special rules then, like AOS?

>>52883038
They broke the mold for it.

My guess is they might go plastic and stick it in the 8th CSM dex.

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>modern 40k

Miss 1 HQ 2 Troops and a bit extra like a Dread, a Predator and some Assault Marines.

Can't believe people still gobble this up.

>>52883022

Yeah, anyone that knows any other competitive game will know this, but I suspect many 40k players don't actually know anything about any sort of competitive game, 40k or otherwise.

Even something like Starcraft, with only three factions, cannot achieve 50/50 balance. Fighting games are the best examples: they get constant revisions and some characters STILL have bad matchups. Their balance is still good because top tier characters are basically the ones with the most 50/50 matchups and the fewest under 50% chance to win matchups. You can also do well if you have good matchups with everyone except for unpopular characters like giant grapplers like Zangief, as those characters tend to be unpopular and have poor matchups against everyone else so you'll never encounter them (just an example, I think SFV Gief isn't low tier ATM).

>>52883005
Phew, was starting to panic there. Cheers.
plastic Elysians to replace dead Cadia when? Or even just new Catachans

>>52881924
Lol. Typical dindu argument. "It's not his fault, he was a good boy. He was about to get his life on track."

Fuck personal responsibility, I guess.

>>52883015
A slowly dwindling pool of like minded individuals who are willing to play a dead game.

>>52883038
>yfw it becomes CSM's premiere flyer due to not having to land and having better T and W than the Heldrake

CLAW ARMADA IS A GO

>>52883015
Because nobody denies 7th has it's share of problems. People just wanted and update that fixed those problems without over simplifying things.

>>52883061
Same. Wish people would just play smaller games. 1500 back then is like 750 now, and people insist on playing 1850 or 2000.

Made all the worse when 1 HQ and 20 marines can cost you 800 points, but the other guy is bringing like 100 conscripts and 5 tanks.

>>52883022
I suppose thats true, having perfect balance is impossible. But they could do it in a way that would be arguably shitty for consumers....if eldar win because they bring X to the table, then just give orks an X that will drastically increase of their chances of winning.

if eldar dont field X but orks field X, orks will have a great chance of winning. you'd have to give all factions an X and the rest comes down to lists and luck. in tournaments and competitive play you'd just have to balance X vs X, since both players will most likely have X.

>>52883058
Do the Traitor Legions use normal Drop Pods? I could see recent renegades using them easily, but I'm not familiar behind the original traitors and their use of them.

>>52883061
>what are low point games

>>52883072
>plastic Elysians

I would love for this to happen so I can buy their grav chute bits on eBay for cheap and stick them to gas mask Cadians and make Harakoni Warhawks.

>>52882873

mate wat

why would you rather face only the strongest shit over and over than have diversity?

>>52882822
>pre-release discussion
there's no "better" when it comes to baseless speculation

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>>52883058

Did they really break the mold? Source? I have a recast, but I was tempted to get a proper one because the recast was a little rough.

Given that they're all over the place in Eternal Crusade, I wouldn't be surprised.

>>52883112
Yes.

>>52883086
>mfw

>>52883095
Really? Most people I've talked to at my LGS want to burn 7th and piss on the ashes.

>>52883061

Most of them don't know any different.

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>>52883038
I wanna see what this does more. The one upside to being a heretic - we get all the cool FW toys.

>>52882472
>Tactical Squad
>unpopular

>>52883112
Yes, but they don't currently have rules for them.

>>52882970
Good thing i'm not aiming to ''prove'' anything then.

>>52883116
>something nobody ever plays because gen X grognards want to use their entire 20 year old collection

>>52883136
Yeah we still know so little real information we're basically just a bunch of monkey's flinging shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

>>52883162
I'm sorry your local community is shit. Mine has no problem playing different point values.

>>52883138

A genuine claw will have smoother pieces than a recast one, but you aren't going to have any easier of a time putting that bitch together. You're probably better off getting some dedicated model kit skinny sanding sticks and some plastic putty and sticking to the recast.

>>52882873

>But in AoS from what a lot of professed AoS players have said, literally any army can beat any other army.

That's not really true but it is true that everything in the game can hurt everything else which is honestly one of the game's strong points.

40k has lost it's way in that regard, granted 40k has a wider scope for unit types that shouldn't be hurt by certain things. Vehicles mostly but there are plenty of things in the game that can just act with total impunity if they come up against certain units or armies.

>>52883038
>>52883150

I have a feeling FW is going to take fucking forever to update that shit to 8E. Especially since it's CSM.

Get ready for day 1 Contemptor and vanilla marine rules though.

>>52883015

GW frequent customers aren't exactly the most discerning in the industry. 7th isn't exactly great either, bit like 9th Age didn't work because nothing after 6th edition Fantasy was that good.

People play in GWs, or LGSs or Clubs where there's enough people just willing to go along with what GW tells them. So let's say you have 50 players and 30 move over instantly, and new players joining them, the remaining 20 find themselves short of opponents and not gaining new members until they just dive in too.

Might get the odd pockets but GW customers are closer to video gamers in personality than Historical Wargamers or whatever. You won't see many people playing Madden 15 online now.

>>52881618
i chuckled

>>52883107
What you want in game design like that is to make it at least difficult or challenging to make X work. Part of the problem with stuff like knights, scatbikes, deathstars, and other things that I see people complain about is that in many ways they are self sufficient; bringing them is all that's necessary. When the power of any strategy is brought out by the complex interaction of multiple parts it at least restricts success to people who are good at the game.

Take the example of fighting games in >>52883068. I have no idea what is good in SFV, because I don't play fighters much, but I know that players work constantly on perfecting their combos and linking them up to juggle properly. No amateur can win just because they picked the "good" character. You have to link together complicated actions to bring out the power of any character, no matter how in or out of the meta they may be some expert on SFV correct me.

>>52883199
Current 40k has units that can't damage everything, and units that can instantkill everything.

Not that hard to see why certain units are never played.

>>52883206
They havent released anything besides Inferno in months, considering how fast FW updated their Fantasy line for AoS Im willing to bet that FW already has everything updated for 8th ed and will probably put out a pdf for all their shit. Similar reason why Fires of Cyraxis hasnt been released is because they probably changed the edition for it midway through production so they basically are waiting for 8th ed to drop and FoC to be the first Imperial Armor for the new system.

>>52883017
I'm not a fan of that kind of activation system. It seems even sillier than the IgoUgo system of shooting people complain about in 40k. Oh these guys are beating you to death? Better take a nap because Johnny McAwesome is off stabbing someone today.

It leads to unnecessary decision making continues a pattern of linear gameplay. If my Bloodthirster will survive combat he'll be going last, the least likely to survive but most damaging units go first. Initiative at least makes sense from an RPG or simulationist's point of view.

The Activation system gets even sillier in stuff like Infinity where you can channel multiple activations into one model so you can have 90% of your army spending the whole game brain-dead while your hero character is on some crazy cocktail of 37 different combat stims made from crushed soulstones mixed with the emperor's jizz.

>>52883032

Nope not gunna do that as I agree with you, double turns are the thing I like least about the game and if it bugs you that much I can't really argue against it.

I'd prefer a system similar to Infinity where instead of being a straight dice off it's based on who your general is but you can't have everything I guess.

>>52882907

I feel like half the charm of the early dawn of wars was the terrible voice acting. You aren't going to get art-house or shakespear in 40k.

>>52883104
I never play more than 1250.

>>52883061
1 HQ + 3 troops + some combination of 1 heavy, 3 light, or 2 medium units is actually just ideal for a 6' x 4' board.

The whole 2000 points meme needs to die. The game is ideally played at anywhere from 750 to 1250 points.

>>52883269

Also, names like Gabriel Angelos.

I'm surprised nobody's talking about the fact that they said the game's designed for 1000 points and upwards now.

My store (and I'm sure plenty of others) runs its tourneys at below that, 850 to be precise, and I really hope balance will still hold up at that point range.

>>52883188

I'm just letting it go as is for now. The biggest bitch is the work I need to do on the flight stem holder. However, I've seen videos of the claw assembly, and the FW one looked much better since it was based on a plastic pod, not a pre cut recast pod. Fuck, if I could even just buy the claw parts separately, I'd be satisfied.

The recast I got was Ebay impulse buy, and I'm tempted to try MI because I had little problem with the shit I got from her.

I'm talking about the Anvillus of course, not the old "Chaos Dreadclaw" monster.

>>52883150

That would be cool, though I'm drowning in contemptors from HH boxes, so I doubt I'd get a Decimator. Those butcher cannons are sick, though.

>>52883290
Considering the game seems currently focused on Apocalypse-level battles, it seems like a huge step forward.

>>52883290
Most likely. If anything balance issues become more appearent at lower point values, as armies that have units that are too expensive can't bring the tools to do anything against armies that have all the undercosted units. So the new edition might even be better for low point games than 7th

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AoS's actual rules are fine, they're simple but good

The problem AoS had was the abysmal support for the first couple of months

But 40kAoS looks to actually have points out the door

but also I'm an ork player and I will take literally anything else at this point, for the last four years I have been guaranteed to lose unless my opponent brought a "nice" list. No more.

>>52883290
Depends on how they cost things. I've felt they could stand having points costs as a whole go up for some more granulation.

>>52883290
>>52883317

> Space Marines, WS 5 BS 5 S 5 T 5 - 8 points each.

>basically the same rules as Necromunda twenty years ago
>28mm scale flyers on a six foot board

They're not going to change much are they

>>52881798
8th edition is going to be exactly like AoS.
I base this on the fact both systems use D6.

>>52883290

I always liked 750, personally. Even better when part of a slow grow league that's 500, 750, 1000, 1250, and 1500.

My favorite games are almost always at 1000/1250, though.

>>52883332

>GW going back to the thing that literally killed WHFB

>>52880950
I2 useless meme

>>52883340
>>52883271

What is 1250 now though? Troops are cheaper across the board to get you to buy more, except they come in boxes of 10 not 20 now.

>>52883336

You don't have a gentleman's agreement against flyers?

They're terrain pieces only here.

>>52883321
As long as I can still slap down my 2 fishbowl robots and have a decent enough list I'll be happy.

Having only 10 models as your entire army is pretty great for transport.

>>52883336
You really expected them to remove things like flyers from the game entirely ?

Removing certain types of units will probably always induce more rage, because people hate nothing more than models the build and painted becoming illegal to field or unsupported.

>>52883112
Lore wise all CSM use them all the time.

>>52883378
Hello, early 6th edition player. How's it going in 2012?

>>52883150
Same.

Hellblade and Helltalon fliers.... awesome.

Kytan, Brass Scorpion, Blood Slaughterers, Decimators, Plague Drones daemon engines... awesome.

>>52883349

They can't resist. They crave money and if they have to jeopardise the long term sustainability of the game to do it they will.

Most of the shareholders will be cashing out soon anyway.

Are there any good novels about Eldar?

>>52883339
Against such flawless logic I have no reply. You've won, good sir.

>>52883378

>that's shit mechanics
>oh well my group just happens to ignore that so it's okay

Every time

>>52883378
lel you don't play much do you

>>52883393

Flyers never existed before 2012 anyways. Just turn them into skimmers again.

>>52883425
Especially if flyers are an actual important piece of kit.

>>52883419
Path of the Archon series is a pretty fucking fantastic account of life with the Dark Eldar. Haven't read Path of the Eldar for the Craftworld equivalent but I've heard it's not as good.

>>52883005
That's not entirely true. They discontinued the plague hulk out of nowhere
Which was a shame because I wanted to buy one pretty soon.

>>52883399
>>52883428

Pretty swimmingly, or do you like 5 Vendettas fucking you ever match?

>>52883290

That's fine, just play at 1000. 150 more points isn't a huge deal unless you are a cheesy faggot who brings 50 conscripts. You get like one marine squad or an overpriced HQ for that.

>>52883439
Fliers aren't shit in 7e, literally git gud

>>52883401

>Hellturkeys are $74
>Hellblades are ~$70
>one of these has 2 twinlinked heavy 3 Autocannons and blinks around for 115pts
>its not plastic one

I'm so fucking tempted to get Hellblades instead of turkeys. They're pretty sweet.

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>>52883439
>not using anti-air
>not realizing Vendettas were nerfed anyway since the last time you played in 2012

>>52883425

Well take a hint anon, I mean take them out.

Flyers are silly in 10mm games never mind 28mm.

If you want airstrikes then have a template you pay for.

>>52883378
>>52883439

>if my """group""" doesn't ban something it immediately gets abused to fuck, no middle ground

What is wrong with you?

>>52883290
I think there is a lot to be said for refocussing the game for long term play. Make campaigns out of it. Contest zones/planets/whatever against multiple other players in a long term war. It's much easier to "balance" a long term game like that when the stronger armies are ganged up on and have to control larger area.

>>52883434

That one recently went down, right? They might just be restocking/readying for 8E. Unless they've simply stopped putting up "last chance to buy" notices altogether but kept that functionality on the site.

>>52883290
1000 points is pretty comfy right now, enough to field what you want but not everything in your book. My group finds it nice at 1500 where we have more options.

>>52883458

Vendettas only had their crew reduced to 6 and a slight point increase. They're still annoying as fuck in sufficient numbers.

Also, all this butthurt. We play how we want.

Flyers are shit, I'm sorry if you just went out and pre-ordered two of the new thunderhawks.

>tfw battlecannon Russ' will do nothing half the game because it's a single shot BS3 unit

>>52883462
>If you want airstrikes then have a template you pay for.

So much this. You don't see them making 20 foot long Space Marine Battle Barge models so that you can cast Orbital Bombardment.

>>52883495
>he thinks blast weapons are going to only do a single hit

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>>52883486

I agree 100%

This is the list I've been using, and I can't think of much more that I'd want.

>>52883495
Who says they have to be BS 3? Who says there won't be hit modes for battle cannons depending on target unit size?

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>>52883492
>losing to flyers
>one of the most shit unit types right now

>>52883515

> He thinks blast weapons use BS to hit.

>>52883371
I don't think my armies are a fair indicator since they are hoard armies but my SM opponents usually have 5-7units.

>>52883462

But GW won't take them out, so it's just another sign of a pisspoor game that you're asking me to disregard because you do whilst buying other shit.

>>52883129
That doesn't make sense. In a competitive game you are always facing someone's 'strongest shit.' Humans inherently stratify the quality of things. Even if there is a 1% variance between successes of armies I guarantee you that there would be 'unplayable shit' and an OP FOTM race.

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>>52883492
>flyers are shit, I would know since my group doesn't use them
Okay but why are they shit? The problem with Flyers in 6th edition was a lack of countermeasures against them and before you say flakk missiles just fuck off, you know by countermeasures I mean non-shit countermeasures that actually work which was a problem that was remedied by updated books actually taking Flyers into account. As it is now, any good TAC list will have a good answer to Flyers, and since 7th edition actually made them less durable by worsening the Immobilized result, a decent list should be able to deal with Vendettaspam no problem.

It's clear you haven't played in a while, so let me give you some pointers. The hot memes to bitch about here at the end of this edition are superheavies, MCs and bullshit formations.

>>52883529

> Muh flyers.
> Timmy who spend hundreds on his 10 Stormtalons.

We haven't used them in 7th so i can't say how good they are in the game but they don't belong in a 28mm game unless you have gorilla arms and a 12 by 8 table.

>>52883532
Templates are gone.

>>52883515
It actually has to hit first

>>52883524
The entire point of the edition seems to be having as few rules as possible and they've already removed unit size as a relevance to things like moral because apparently keeping track of the number of models in a unit is too tedious.

>>52883458
That's the reason my group tends to avoid flyers. It becomes this dumb area where you're forcing the other person to go out and buy a specific unit that's kitted out for anti-air just because you decided to take a couple planes in your list.

At a certain points level it becomes bearable to have a few there even if someone forgets anti-air, but it's just a mess that leads to list-tailoring arguments and frustration all around.

In the long run, they don't even add that much more to the game compared to your typical Skimmer. If all the Flyers in the game were Fast Skimmers that just had 4+ cover in the open to represent being harder to hit, they'd be a lot less annoying.

>>52883536

Yeah I agree but 40K is the game everyone plays so you just have to roll with the punches.

>>52883576
see>>52883581

They don't belong in a 28mm game, they are a money making racket for GW.

>>52883563
strongest shit is fine as long as each army has it,

if every army in 8th is viable at a competitive level that would be heaven.

>>52883589

That's what he means, no templates, so now they have to hit on BS3, so the main cannon has a 50/50 chance of doing nothing.

>>52883532
Even with them removing BS it's unlikely that the specific to hit rolls will change much, if at all.

>>52883589
>they've already removed unit size as a relevance to things like moral
Says who? they said that you'd take extra wounds if you lost combat based upon some moral roll and the number of wounds you lost combat by. Unless you're going to tell me that unit size has nothing to do with your odds of winning combat. In the case of any unit I can think of, adding extra models to the unit makes the odds of winning combat at least as good, if not better than it would have been.

>>52883589
Those rules are tied to the unit, not the core rules. Not saying its impossible you're right, but AoS has unit size mods, so, good or bad, its possible they return/stay in 8th.

>>52882873
The sole objective in MTG is to win, so having things that are objectively instant win conditions are better. Games Workshop has stated multiple times that "fun" and "the narrative" are some of the most important aspects of play. Its supposed to be a casual and fun game. And as such, everything should be sort of equal. Thats not to say that there won't be horrible match ups. If your friend brings only tanks and you don't have any melta your fucked. But your opponent bringing one model/unit (things like girlyman or a riptide wing) shouldn't completely fuck over your chances of winning.

>>52883598
>big models are unbalanced in small games
And? You have the same problem with the likes of Knights. Just don't be a cunt, actually use them at appropriate points levels.

>>52883622
>They don't belong in a 28mm game
Nice opinion, care to provide some reasoning?
>the board is too big!
is the only reasoning I'm seeing right now. Do you honestly have problems moving your models around the board?