MTG LEGACY GENERAL

First for paying respects to DDFTguy.
You didn't deserve what they did to you.

You can play a control deck in _________.

>>52880305
EDH

>>52880263
F

>>52880263
RIPIP in piss.
in other news with top gone my matchups got way the fuck better.

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>>52880240
>Miracles: The Match-Up Everyone Should Know
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-to-defeat-miracles/
STOP TAUNTING ME REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>52880305
the past

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>Top banned, miracles gutted

>>52880454
DDFT guy is crying right now anon, feel bad, even know everyone is god damn partying over miracles being deader then dead.

>>52880240
I don't play Miracles, but top didn't deserve this. That shit's rough, man, I don't think R&D has a clue what they're doing anymore.

>>52880478
>but top didn't deserve this
top more than deserved this

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I can't even remember the last time I was this genuinely happy. Pic related, mtgsource's miracle thread.

>>52880440
underrated

>Wizards listened to the cucked and retarded shit players
>Instead of the actually superior legacy players that warned peple we should fucking ban terminus
FUCK

>>52880657
>wizards is run by casuals, for casuals
no shit.

>>52880240
Nothing of value was lost

>>52880680
But it was fucking obvious.

Again, I guess skill isn't allowed and only retarded tier decks, can't have you using your 90+ IQ goy!

Fuck miracles. I'm glad top is gone. Condolences to DDFT guy, but top had to go.

>>52880657
>>52880745
>Control babs still desperately jacking themselves off under the pretense of """""skill"""""

>>52880745
>Spinning top and cracking fetches until I find my terminus
>"Skill"

>>52880784
>t. modern player

Top was a good addition to combo, midrange decks to not be fucked by RNG as hard, I have seen it played as 1-2 in goblins too.

Terminus made miracles beyond fucking retarded because there is a slight difference between 4 mana sorc speed wrath and 1 mana instant "better wrath", but again modern players can't grasp this concept, or the fact that countertop had been a thing for years and never OP until miracles.

>>52880806
>Proving the problem is 1 mana superwrath
Woah thanks for proving me right anon!

>Get to LGS ready to play Legacy tonight
>realize I didn't bring my deck in the parking lot
>drive home in disappointment

Guess I'll have to wait two weeks to play Miracles-less Legacy. I wonder what I should prepare.

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the drama from miracle players is just so sweet
check reddit or DTB thread if you want a laugh

>>52880832
Terminus is not a problem with top banned, your argument is shit, it was shit two weeks ago, and wizards knows it.

>>52880918
>lmao lets lower the skill of the format and make non-blue decks even more clownfiesta RNG bullshit
>Instead of just banning terminus

Ok, thanks for proving to me you have a peanut brain and are a certified subhuman, get a trip

>>52880948
Stop projecting so hard anon. At least it was not my deck the one who got fucked

They probably should have banned Terminus instead of top.

>>52881012
Top is a way better card than Terminus.

Post-ban Diary, Day 1: I'm trying to move on. Picked up a set of Infernal Tutors on MTGO and played a few rounds with ANT. The magic just wasn't there. I got desperate and swarped the tops in DDFT for Chromatic Spheres. It went about as well as you'd expect. I don't know how much longer I can hold out in this format.

>>52881064

The point of Legacy is to play with good cards.

>>52881012
I have doubts the deck wouldn't still be tier 1

>>52881089
That's why all the p9 are banned

>>52881089
So they should ban the weaker cards? That's just silly.

>>52881077
m8 try dredge since its back to running rampant with it since miracles ate it.

>>52881064
>Top is a way better card than Terminus.

And banning it completely kills Miracles instead of just nerfing it significantly. Banning tops also hurts a lot of other decks incidentally.

>>52881114
>I have doubts the deck wouldn't still be tier 1

It would be significantly worse, and probably not as oppressive.

>>52881077
>Let autist Tumblr post
Grow some balls

>>52880240
Now that the cancer that was control is dead, I'm ready to jump into legacy. What are some fun beatdown decks in this format I can build?

>>52880478
>I don't play Miracles, but top didn't deserve this.

The top is one of the worst, most annoying designs in the game. It had to go. It slows the game down so fucking much.

>tfw only played stupid fringe combo decks on xmage
>get fucked by Miracles fairly often
>that glorious feel when the bane of your Legacy existence is gone

I'm gonna buy into a paper deck now.

>>52881202
Truthfully not really any outside of eldrazi. Pure aggro and beatdown stuff was outclassed by delver awhile ago. So eldrazi if you want ez mode and delver if you want something that doesnt lose to combo.

>>52881202
Elves

>>52881202
Eldrazi. Without any 1 mana boardwipes you should be able to thoughtlessly dump your hand and swing away!

>>52881162
You didn't actually disagree with the sentiment that Top is a better card.

Are you saying you'd prefer a stronger card stays legal because it keeps a deck alive and instead have a weaker card be illegal to play to just hurt the deck?

That's not how a banned list works.

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>mfw none of my decks got hurt from top banned

Can't wait to see the salt from my meta when I still win with goblins

>>52881249
>slotting ancient tomb into a Modern deck is now the best deck in Legacy
really titilates the brian

Fuck, what do I do with my sideboard now that I don't have to worry about Miracles? Sneaky Red up in this

>>52881244

Please give us some of your spicy combos

>>52881177
>not getting that it's a joke
Grow a brain desu senpai.

>>52881290
There are tons of possible criteria for 'raw power level'.

A bunch of cards are on the ban list not because they are super high power level, but because interact with other cards too powerfully.

You could argue that top isn't too powerful for legacy, but a 1 CMC instant speed wrath++ is.

"Not gutting sub-tier 1 decks as a side effect" should certainly be a factor in determining bannings.

>>52880425
>How to defeat miracles

Ban Top lol GG EZ

>>52881202
go play dredge faggot, mill your deck for a fuckton o dudes and proceed to shitstomp others to death with super zombies.

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>>52881399
r8 my memes no h8 plz m8

>>52881589
o-oh my, thats some seriously spicy maymays.
I never thought i'd see a green storm deck.

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>>52881153
>since miracles ate it

>>52881589
>Mostly the same forest art except for a few ones that aren't.

I'd be less upset if they were just all the same art, if you want a single one then just stick to it.

are those teeth on crossroads?

>>52881399
Red Sneak is one. I guess the others are more tempo. I run a Temur Delver deck that can combo with Tibalt and Loam, and usually ends up braining my opponent with Hidetsugu's Second Rite. Mr Toad's Wild Ride is also magnificent

Honestly, I don't think Miracles deserved to get hit that hard. I would have liked to see DRS and Terminus go instead, Top hits too many niche decks and Terminus is exclusively used by Miracles. What concerns me more is the precedent that WotC is setting with such dramatic bans. I don't really feel as safe buying into legacy now that I know WotC is willing to take such a heavyhanded approach.

>>52881589
Never mind the deck, where'd you get those dice?

>>52881702
>Mr Toad's Wild Ride

Ooo, a Fluctuator Deck. Oh god that reminds me Fluctuator jumped up in price by 400% once Amonket was announced.

>>52881772
at this point i'm now currently expecting force of will to go next if they were that hellbent on getting rid of top, then legacy is finished.

I play Manaless, but fuck Wizards.

>>52881841
>FoW ban
It isnt an oppressive card unless you exclusively play turn one or lose combo decks

>>52881841
FoW doesn't hold the entire format hostage.

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>>52880305
PAUPER MOTHERFUCKERS

So who's on board for u/w stoneblade gotta use them tundra and have and b2b

>>52881797
Well the spindown in the top left is from the duel decks anthologies and the greenish one I got in a bin. The dark green ones part of a set of plastic dice I dont remember where I got that set, just some game shop ages ago.

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Don't worry Miracles players, I found the perfect Top replacement.

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>>52882006

>>52881927
Sorry they're banning every land in the game because fetching lands and tapping them artificially lengthens the game and puts a constraint on tournament organizers, while the one land a turn limit confuses new players.

Cheerios is now the only playable deck.

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>>52881772
I love how this argument keeps cropping up.
>I'm just worried about the *precedent* that's been set
Maybe the price is too high. WotC can ban anything they want, and there's not shit you can do about it but bitch on the internet how afraid you are.

>>52881631
It was a labor of love. goes off turn 3-4, has very little resilience without recycle and honestly my record when I bring it to events is around 30% wins. I was also the only miracles player in town so thats the post miracles winrate.

>>52881589
Nice forests

>>52882032
blood moon is gonna shit on this deck now.

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Thread theme
https://youtu.be/8Ya8SSbs_L4
By the way, some guy beat his girlfriend nearly to death over the top ban lmao

>>52883754
>some guy
Yeah you. Get help

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We can either take out a card used only by the deck we want to hit, or something key to the format that allows non-blue decks to filter without Brainstorm and friends. Hmm

God I just realized how fucking insane this format is going to become over the next few months. Maybe even weird new shit will spring up.

>>52884005
yeah I'm pretty hyped to see what's gonna happen

>>52881077
Im drinking your tears from a bendy straw to savor the flavor

>>52883851
They also wanted to ban top cause of slow play. You clearly haven't played against enough retards to actually be somewhat relieved about this.

>>52884157
Not parent but nope, people that play legacy at my LGS tend to understand how to play.

>>52881077
is it time to go back to street wraith?

>>52884180
Wow must be nice living in magical pro tier player land. Seriously playing against a shit miracles pilot was fucking grueling made me want to blow my brains out

>>52884218
Well the legacy players know how to play, the modern are about half and half, and the standard players are bad.

>>52884255
that's the dumbest post I've seen all day

>>52884255
My shop allowed for 5 proxies on most legacy nights, so it was kind of modern tier

>>52881589
I've played your older list on cockatrice, can confirm it's fun as hell.

>>52881202
12 post and big red are the 2 off the top I can think of.

>>52881202
Check the starcity legacy event a few weeks ago. Alot of decks to watch

>>52881589
This looks awesome, can you post a text version? I can't tell what's main vs SB

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A lot of raging has commenced this day.

>>52884157
I guess not; most people near me that play legacy know their decks and have a good enough understanding of the format to be timely with their top spins. It's annoying that everyone has to suffer because of some clueless muppets/dicks playing the clock as much as their deck.

>>52884489
I don't blame that guy, I think Wizards fucked up bad on this one. Did Miracles need to take a hit? Yes, definitely. Did it need to be completely castrated and have a lot of niche decks get hit hard as a side effect? Absolutely not.

I don't even play Miracles but I feel for that dude.

Just switched bug delver back to rug delver. Back to stifling and bolting. No need to run abrupt decay now that miracles gone. Counterbalance tops shut down 85 percent of my damn deck. But now....

>>52880240
Do banned cards get more or less expensive?

>>52884997
Less usually.

>>52884997
less more often than not

>>52884997
Less, doubly so for something like Top that only recently got a reprint. It'll probably eventually climb since there'll always be a market due to seeing play in Vintage and almost any EDH deck ever.

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IT'S TIME TO SLEEVE UP

DESERTGORGER DRAGONLAND

>>52885035
>>52885045
>>52885056
Thanks.

I have a bunch of old cards that I really need to get rid of, and I think I have 3 old Tops, including a foil.

>>52885109
Coming up with names for it's almost as much fun as the combo. I think Worldscorcher's my favourite so far.

>>52885109
THE SPICE MUST FLOW

>>52885109
What's the combo?

>>52885424
Worldgorger+Animate Dead bounces all permanents an arbitrary number of times, use this to get Desert triggers until they die.

>>52885424

Animate Dead (or Dance of the Dead, for backup) targets the Worldgorger Dragon, it comes into play, your board blinks out, including the Animate Dead. Worldgorger goes back to the grave, everything blinks back in. Sunscorched Desert (or Piranah Marsh, for backup) pings your opponent. Animate Dead targets Worldgorger again, and the combo loops.

All your land also blinks back into play untapped so you could also generate infinite mana.

>>52885450
>>52885457
Thanks. It seems fast.

>>52885482
Unlike other reanimator style combos, it kills on the spot, but it's probably more fragile than the traditional RB Reanimator strategy.

>>52884204
I actually already have 2 semi-funational lists, just trying to tweak numbers and feel things out. Still trying to figure out if they do anything better than ANT/TES, but even without top, doomsday has some advantages over other storm decks, primarily in its ability to win without storm. Lab maniac is still good for beating hate. I can't say the deck is anywhere near what it once was, but my hopes are a little higher than earlier today.

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>>52884255
>>52884301
Do all legacy players have their head shoved up their ass for a constant supply of fart sniffing?

>>52885482
It also has the ___fun ability to force draws when it's losing by setting the loop up without a damage source.

>>52885592
Is that legal?

>>52884489
Anyone using the word faggot needs to be ignored.
>inb4 sjw
Nothing to do with political correctness

>>52885607
The only rule about infinite loops is that you have to take any decisions you can within the loop to end it. So you wouldn't be forced to, say, Decay your Animate Dead, but if there was another target in your graveyard, you'd have to reanimate that instead.

>>52885669
Could be another target in the opponents grave too.

>>52885703
Good point.

>>52885109
So what are we playing?

4x Careful study
4x Dark ritual
4x Animate dead
4x Crop rotation
4x Entomb

Could that be the package, add in brainstorm, FoW, daze for protection. Any tutor for Animate Dead or do we just add in Griselbrand, reanimate and call it a day?

>>52881202
>the cancer that is control
Stay in modern.

>>52885109
I had a WGD deck from last year. i dont know what im doing.
// LGC WGD

// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
3 Lotus Petal

// 7 Creature
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Griselbrand
2 Snapcaster Mage

// 6 Enchantment
4 Animate Dead
2 Necromancy

// 20 Instant
4 Force of Will
2 Entomb
3 Brainstorm
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Cunning Wish
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Dark Ritual
2 Intuition

// 18 Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Piranha Marsh
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Shivan Gorge
1 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Mountain

// 6 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
2 Faithless Looting


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

// 7 Instant
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt

// 4 Sorcery
SB: 2 Meltdown
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

>>52886216
Why Reanimate when you can use Dance of the Dead and Necromancy? A couple of Griselbrands are ok. I wouldn't Crop Rotation just for stretching manabase, just have more fast mana like Lotus Petal. You can add things like Oona as finishers for when you miss your pinging lands since you get infinite mana by tapping your lands each time Worldgorger brings them back.

>>52886216

Personally, I was going to run this
4 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Griselbrand
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
3 Dark Ritual
4 Hapless Researcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Piranha Marsh
4 Sunscorched Desert
6 whatever-else lands to smooth out black/blue. Maybe even Underground Rivers or Gemstone Mines if I want to be cheap.

Well, as much as I loved her, I have to stay proactive in these dark times. What's the closest thing to a hard control deck that doesn't feature memeforge mystic? Am I just going to have to play bug goodstuff now?

>>52886552
Silly anon, there is no control deck now. If you attempt a control deck you are just going to get fucking raped by DRS, Liliana of the Veil, and Leovold

DRS
>counteracts Snapcaster
>quick ramp, quicker kill
>turn 2 Leovold
There is no possible way to play a Control deck now

>>52886605

If there is no alternative, I'm prepared to try four color miracles with janky shit like natural selection and spy network to try and replicate a fraction of the power that top had. It can't end like this.

>>52886552

Play Belcher. You get to control how much time the matches go.

>>52886552
I guess we're looking into the weird territory of stuff like Loam, Lands, Nic Fit, Pox and Staxx?

>>52886619
DRS ban imminent

Then we go down the rabbit hole of ban the next best thing regardless of how the format is because people got so used to bannings.

>>52885637
Go back

>>52886659
I was thinking you could use Isochron Scepter alongside Brainstorm or Enlightened Tutor to get a similar effect. Maybe throw a Scroll Rack or two in there.

>>52886552
I think Weismann-style control is dead in Legacy for now, but there's plenty of janky prison decks out there. If you want something with a learning curve to sink your teeth into, try Parfait.

>>52885174
make it BG with crop rotations to find the desert and you can call it crocodile rock because the dragon vaguely resembles something that could reasonably be considered a crocodile if you were really, really drunk.

>>52886697

>loam
Too many creatures for me
>lands
I've been strongly considering this deck. I dislike not playing many spells, but if that's what it takes to play control in magic then so be it
>nic fit
I love this deck, but I'm not comfortable with not having top. Top is that decks unsung hero
>Pox
Will always be for shitters
>Staxx
I don't despise my opponents

>>52885637
Then what is it, faggot?

>>52886779

>play spellweaver helix binning ponder and terminus
>delver player wipes his own board if he wants to find one of his 6 copies of abrupt decay
>inevitably finds it and proceeds to shit down your throat for trying fun things

>>52886825
>I love this deck, but I'm not comfortable with not having top. Top is that decks unsung hero
Yeah it does sting. We either use something like Sylvan Library and accept that it dies to our Pernicious Deeds or just use the slots for something completely different. So many suggestions going around, but I dunno that we'll find what we need until after the dust's settled.

>>52886798

>for now

Unless we get a "We're Sorry" from Wotc followed by a rescission of the Top ban, it's more like forever. You just have to look at the cards from Amonkek to see that.

>>52886659
Its over. Have some dignity and give up.

>>52886825
Loams fun

>>52881797
He got them 3d printed.

>>52881946
This is one spicy shitpost.

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>>52885234
Underrated.

Any new cards to improve my Cheerios deck? Now that Miracle is dead, I want to take advantage of the confused meta to play memes.

>>52883754
falsified and sexually deviant towards the same sex

Guys my tops aren't working what the fuck do I do?

>>52886552
Get over it and join combo to show >wizards how wrong they were.

Bonus points if you play Storm or Dredge

>>52886619
Czech Pile *is* a control deck.

>>52887511
DESU if the deck isn't called some sort of Dune Reference, we fucked up.
Anyway, I really want this to be a thing now

>>52888360

I was thinking of playing some games with dredge. Most people that are happy about the top ban don't know what oppressive really means. Is FKZ and Iona still the go-to or is flayer better

Welcome to Deathrite Shaman: the Format.

>>52885109
>T1 Swamp Entomb
>T2 Desert Animate Dead
It checks out.

>>52888640
>turn 2 in a miracles-free legacy

>>52888640
You forgot the FoW shitflinging

>>52888777
>Blue
>Legacy
You're thinking of the wrong format friend, Vintage is the only format where people play blue.

>>52885637
>>>/r/eddit

Is it time for high tide to make a comeback? One of its worst match ups is gone.

>>52889690
Admittedly, miracles being gone is going to probably create a wave of weird shit that was being pushed out by the existence of a good, popular control deck.

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>>52884467
I dont think I ever had a sideboard.

>>52887483
Why would I get spindowns 3D printed? Theyre everywhere.
I got the metal dice ages ago as a gift. I dont know where they are from.

>>52880305
Modern, Legassy, Vintage

>>52886320
Its dead. Control is finally fucking dead everywhere. We did it

>>52886825
>>Pox
>Will always be for shitters

wow, rude

>>Staxx
>I don't despise my opponents

If you played Miracles you did, you just wanted to hide it with a good deck. Staxx is just saying "fuck you" to the person's face.

>>52890404
I will give you a reply out of pity.

Does anyone have a stax list? Preferably including Ravages of War.

>>52890976

Here you go, senpai. This is a top-8er from 2016 (all the other ones using that card were from 2008):

25 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Wastes
9 CREATURES
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
23 OTHER SPELLS
1 Banishing Light
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
SIDEBOARD
1 Banishing Light
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Humility
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sphere of Law
2 Wrath of God

People need to stop saying Control is dead.

Almost every aggro deck in Legacy is aggro-control or aggro-prison, which is another way of saying "aggro-control."

>>52890404
And to think you only had to whine incessantly about it for about 15 years! With relative ease!

>>52891108
No Tabernacle?

>>52891108
Neat, thanks.

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>>52881589
>looks at a nice deck
>mfw noticing the teeth

>>52891297
No prize support in legacy so we play for teeth.

>Control is dead
>What is Bug
>What is delver
>What is landstill
Delusional Miraclefags kys plz.

>>52891345
>Delusional Miraclesfags
>Not saltmining modernbabbys
Look at how many people care about teeth anons teeth. Someone post the whitebordered LEDs, the time is right for easy (You)s

>>52890841
>If you played Miracles you did, you just wanted to hide it with a good deck. Staxx is just saying "fuck you" to the person's face.
>W-why does everyone hate us? Staxx is a legitimate strategy

>>52885637
Faggot

>>52890959
No, the pity is saved for you Control babby. Better go trade those tops for Deathrites, its Midrange from here on out.

>>52891132
We'll change that soon enough
>>52891133
Dont make me call Aaron Forsythe. Ill get Brainstorm banned too.

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Every fucking day I do this.

sometimes I wake up and it's still good

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I have never been happier with a ban announcement in my life, Control is dead! BTFO of their own format, its over control babies, you have no format to hide.

>top banned
lmao i still keep winning turn 1-2 90% of games with my cheese deck that has gone under the radar for years. Fuck miracles

>>52891153
I'm curious too. Maybe just budget reasons?

I was gonna drop the grand to buy dnt and get into legacy. Do I do it now or let this smoke settle?

>>52892950
>Ravages over Armageddon
>budget reasons

>>52893026
Good non-miracles decks can only increase in price (especially those with previously unfavorable matchup). Those miracles players have to switch to something

>>52893108
My concern is elves will get better.

Does Burn take a real hit from this? Miracles was a really good matchup for it and I feel like without a control deck forcing combo down it'll be a lot more common to face T1 Sire or Griselbrand. Burn occasionally ran Top but I dont think thats the biggest hit.

>>52892919
>things that never happened

>>52893340
turn 1 combo deck that instead of having 4 of each combo piece has at least 12 of each combo piece with force of will/daze cover and 4 x free mulligan cards
>:^)

>>52884599
If it needed a ban at all, it needed to be top. Wizard's doesn't ban payoff cards, they ban engines and enablers. If they banned terminus they're saying "the mechanic miracle is a mistake that is too strong for legacy play', which is retarded since in any deck without top it's barely playable. Top was a one mana selection engine that enabled instant speed one mana wraths and a two card soft lock. It was obviously the card that made miracles good. Wizards shouldn't pussyfoot around with bans, that's how shit like necropotence avoided a ban for years.

I'm glad they finally banned Top. Painter, Doomsday and Nic Fit were too dominant. They all deserved to die.

>Bought playset of new Amonket counterbalances.
I just

>>52893851
SCG was offering exchanges on theirs

>>52892357
Next translation when

>>52894028
Never ;_;7

>>52893616
This is why im actually upset about the ban. I could give a shit less about Miracles as the majority that played it were autists but Painter and Nic Fit were just barely playable and now they are dead. Although strangely Blood Moon just got a lot better so maybe Painters still viable?

>>52894080
Really?

>>52894109
>Nic fit
Giving a bug list a try with brainstorms and its working out alright, or as alright as it was before. I was running 2 SDT anyways.

>>52892919
DesolatorMagic detected. Go back and play with your cpu, fag.

>>52894340
had to google who that even is

>>52893571
This is incorrect thinking. Top is not too strong on its own and is valuable to many non-miracles decks. If WOTC wanted to gut miracles, they had 3 cards to choose from. Terminus, Top, and CB. 2 of 3 are only used in 1 deck. Assuming they'd all make miracles equally unplayable (near enough to true for my purposes) and the only motivation for the ban is to gut Miracles, then objectively Top is the only wrong choice. Since they didn't do this, they were either ignorant of the positive effects of Top on the format (likely, since they don't care about legacy) or they wanted to duck with decks besides miracles. The "top makes rounds go to time" argument is weak because it wasn't Top, but Top in Miracles, that did this. It was Top in the hands of 30% of the field that did this. Any non-top ban that guts the deck also slashes the number of Tops in tournaments, thereby slashing the number of rounds that go to time due to top.

TLDR: Top is only too good when partnered with CB and Terminus. Banning either of those would have the same effect on miracles without effecting myriad fun t2/t3 decks.

>>52894109
I think it's playable, but about as good as High Tide probably. Mono reds not going to be viable anymore

>>52881870
>inb4 they ban counterspell or something redic

Pauper is pretty fair but I think playing 4 ponders and 4 preordains is pretty op

>>52894444
Control is fair in pauper though there's no reason to ban counterspell and a good portion of control lists don't run 4 ponder and preordain.

t. Creature less UB teachings player

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IT'S MY TIME

>>52894395
>what is burn

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>>52894395
>Mono red through the breach
>unplayable

>>52889960
https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/games/dice/

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>>52880425
> gif
> about 8 colours
> still has dithering
That's the real REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>52893108
>those miracles player have to switch to something

Now I know I don't speak for all miracles players but I'm dropping the format for the time being. I have PSI that I might take to some small game nights but I'm gonna wait to see if a U/W/x control deck appears to make me want to play again.

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>>52881202
You got a lot of (you)s

>>52887095
Does the top ban really hurt nic fit that much? I've been slowly picking up some of the cheaper pieces I didn't already own between modern purchases the last few months because the deck looked like a lot of fun. It'd really suck if it did die as collateral damage from this ban.

>>52895919
Some versions didn't play it before anyway.

>>52895919

The junk version played 2-4 tops. The other versions are complete shit, don't let anyone tell you different. It's not dead, but significantly hurt because it turns out deck manipulation is pretty important in a midrange deck that doesn't have access to brainstorm and friends

>>52888436
Loosely remembered
>On my homeworld, sea power was key. Here on Arrakis, I must somehow find how to use desert power.

A Wyrm that Cleanses the World, brought to serve by a force of Life and Death, to achieve Desert Power? We have Meme Magic here the likes of which God has never seen, Muad'Dib.

Is Legacy dead now? I feel like this ban has shaken the faith of a lot of people in the format.

>>52885109
ADD
ANIMATE DESERT DRAGON

>>52897261
What are you talking about? Everything is still burning after the ban, legacy forums probably weren't this active in years with people returning, discussing potential changes to decks or simply bitching.
I sympathize with players of fringe decks that used top but overall it was a hugely postive change.

>>52885109
Should call it Cremator.

>>52897005
I want to build this deck just so I can alter the dragons to be shai huluds

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Hey guys how's it going
I play pox

>>52880240
I can't believe they killed Painter even more. That deck already was a corpse.

Very very new to legacy. I was just wondering why Moat was so expensive. Did someone just buy them all out or something?

>>52898355
Yes. Or a lot of them anyway. It's on the reserve list so it will not be reprinted.

>>52881147
They shouldnt ban cards usable in multiple decks if they can shit on the oppressive deck by banning a card that is used less

After this ban and the last year or so of releases and bans I'm more and more glad I never physically bought into mtg and only ever played on Cockatrice

>>52898296
Gatefag here, i can't wait to watch people cry as black takes over legacy in force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_EtDaA_nyM

>>52898652
Why the fuck

>>52898652
Ah fuck I Cant Believe You've Done This

>>52886905
Shows you're a mental midget.

>>52898652
Omg starving children in africa could eat that wtf

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>>52892357
>Oh this looks neat
>Google it
>v.2 c.10 by SAZ (223d ago)
>223d ago
Fuck. Every time.

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>>52898296
Shardless with kavu cure as my side-bitch

One of my friends loved playing Miracles, but he loved playing Show n Tell, so he wasn't crushed by it.

>>52891321
why the fuck would you play for teeth

>>52883754
I live in Dartmouth. I hope it pops up on the news soon so I can confirm.

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apology for poor english, I am russio

when were you when Miracles was kill?

>was sat at home opening fallen empires packs when LSV ring
>'anon, sensor top is kill'
>'no'

>>52897005
>Desert Power
I really like this. Not too on the nose, but still referential.
Fuck, I might just get into this.

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>>52899530
> not “(1): Take the top three cards of your library and rearrange these cards as you please. Return those cards to the top of your library.
> Tap to draw a card. Top must immediately be put on top of your library. No spells may be cast between drawing and moving Top”

>>52897005
>Bless the Maker and all His Water. Bless the coming and going of Him, May His passing cleanse the world.

>>52894393
Yes it is. Top is ridiculously strong. It allowed you to filter 3 bad draws over and over again.

And with shuffle effects, it sculpted perfect hands way too often. Fair decks don't have a chance.

>>52902465
It is strong. It is no stronger than brainstorm. It was a much needed consistency tool for non-blue decks. It was not too powerful in decks not built to abus it, like miracles. Name a deck besides miracles the card was oppressive in.

>>52880240
>What're y'all brewing now that Legacy is free from the Miracles stranglehold?
All I can tell you is that it's gonna be a Gruul summer.

>>52900118
don't forget, "If your library has fewer than 3 cards in total, then your entire library is to be rearranged in such a manor as described earlier."

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>>52880240
>What're y'all brewing now that Legacy is free from the Miracles stranglehold?

not currently pending any changes because all the cards that were good against miracles are also good against delver, stoneblade, czech pile and etc.

i MIGHT run quad-tutor helm combo out of the side for memes.


>mfw i woke up and saw the b&r update tho

>>52902465
>Fair decks don't have a chance.
I'm trying to figure out if you have some really odd idea of what "fair" is, or if you've never played legacy. Arguably the most fair deck in the format was DnT and it was double digits advantage vs every deck that plays top.

Top wasn't a problem by itself, its that the miracles shell was built specifically to take as much time as possible so it could make a big entreat.

>>52903309
>Arguably the most fair deck in the format was DnT and it was double digits advantage vs every deck that plays top.

i'd say 55-45 given equal skill in piloting d&t vs miracles. you have the advantage but only just so.

double-digits for every other sdt deck tho.

>>52898571
>playing on cuckatrice

>>52898904
>being this much of a faggot

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http://www.cinemablend.com/games/1646489/clueless-mom-tries-to-sell-sons-rare-magic-the-gathering-cards-quickly-regrets-it

>mom takes son's old magic cards and puts them up for auctions without his approval
>comes back and finds out they are worth thousands
>some guy looking at the auction notifies the son
>all hell breaks loose

funny and sad at the same time

why don't parents have some respect for their children and value their valuables

my mom chucked all my fucking Lego sets in the garbage one day

>>52904943
Stop using your mom's house as storage space.

>>52902399
>Tell me of you homebrews, Usul

>>52902591
And there's calls to ban brainstorm. If you're already comparing it to brainstorm then that in itself displays the power of top.

Miracles needed to be nerfed badly. And they killed my omnitell so don't tell me it wasn't fair.

>>52904943
>why don't parents have some respect for their children and value their valuables
Typically, they're under the assumption that if it's not a car or a house, it's fucking worthless.

>>52899530
Isn't it both a poly and a mono artifact?

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>>52907372
>Pono

>>52907439
Anon you can't just post memes this obscure, most people won't understand them

So why does Wizards hate control so badly?

>>52905324
Miracles needed a nerd and they elected to use a nuke instead of an equally effective surgical strike. Sorry you're too retarded to understand that.

>>52907843
Miracles already had tons of nerds

What's the verdict on burn with Harsh Mentor?

>>52908600
Harsh mentor is good sideboard, it was set to really kill miracles dead. Without Top you still have victims in deathrite and fetchlands.

>>52908699
Do you have a list?

>>52908733
No but its burn. I imagine the biggest personal choice after grim vs no grim is which sets lightning bolt will be used.

>>52908808
Thanks

>tfw dredgepro
>tfw you feel for the top

Man now I can play favorite meme. But at what cost...

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Neat!

>>52880240
F

>>52909692
>Tfw Odyssey was my first set.
>Tfw my first experience with Magic was incomprehensible garbage when you're 10

>>52894709
Nowadays this would be rare and wouldn't have trample.
Fuck.

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>>52907536
desu I'm just glad someone got my obscure meme

>>52880918
Terminus is not a problem with top banned, neither is counterbalance

Banning top condemns terminus, counterbalance, and a handful of decks from being playable

Banning terminus just makes miracles need better answers to board state

>>52881374
Graveyard hate

>>52881589
I remember this deck, really nice use of green storm

Is it consistent?

>>52911236
Not at all. The deck is turn 3 on the nuts and even then its maybe 15%. Two of the major pieces give your opponent a huge advantage, the deck is stonewalled by recycle getting stopped and recycle can and will just kill you 20% of the time.

That said the deck is really fun when it goes off, the salt was real when it worked

>only 1 foil protean hulk left on MCM
So is this it? Are people gonna sit on these dumb things until the end of time?

>>52911900
when it got banned i bought like 140 of them from my local players with like 10 cents each. Laughing my way to the bank.

>>52907811
They think the PT should be on national television so needs to be dramatic.

>>52912116
I only got one foil because I found out too late.
They're going for 10 bucks a piece now on mcm, so you already made a fuckload, damn man.

>>52881870
whats your pauper decks?

i have muramasa tron, affinity, mono blue delver and goblins. wanting to make infect and black discard as well.

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>>52908699
>Without Top you still have victims in deathrite and fetchlands.
death & taxes is the biggest harsh mentor target

>activate vial
trigger shock you
>activate mom
trigger shock you
>activate jitte
trigger shock you
>activate port
trigger shock you
>activate wasteland
trigger shock you
>activate karakas
trigger shock you
>activate sfm
trigger shock you

imperial taxes will probably be the standard going forward because it has access to harsh mentor for the mirror and magus of the moon for everyone else.

RIP Top
October 1st 2004 - April 24th 2017
Long did he reign

>>52893489
>>52893340

>>52897005
less go desert power

anyway. is this deck a new thing or are we just brewing a tier 2 fun combo deck ?

>>52913084
sure dont believe me I dont care because I know its real :)

>>52913142
>it was real in my mind

>>52893489
4 serum powders
4 FoW
4 Daze
Some number of islands.

So whats the shitbrew?

>>52913142
Show me your deck sucka.

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Isn't funny how there can be a deck loved and played by thousands of people and then it's completely gone from one day to the next

>>52913915
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

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>>52913993
All that cardboard will be lost in time..

>>52881772
Agreed. It's surprising to me that there are morons in this thread that are happy with this terrible ban.

>>52884489
That guy is right, though.

>>52913915
despite what spike tryhards will tell you Miracles is still a deck
in fact I heard of people that play decks that aren't tier 0

>>52884489
>this is what exmiracletards actually believe

>>52885637
turbofaggot

>>52903132
Also don't forget, "if anything targets this artifact with an effect that would destroy it, place this card in its owner's graveyard. You may not cast it from your graveyard unless something explicitly allows you to."

>>52893108
>implying we're not quiting
What control deck should I switch to? Also, Wotc is clearly going to go ham on the format and treat it like Modern: The best deck is going to get a ban each year to spice things up.

>>52893616
Don't forget about the format-warping 12-post. That deck's a gonner.

>>52914493
>place it in its owner's gravyard
>not discard
2/10

>>52880240
>banning top instead of just banning either counterbalance and terminus
Even if they wanted to 100% kill miracles it would be preferable if they banned both counterbalance and terminus, there's no point in banning top.
>>52911174
>banning top kills several decks
>banning terminus does exactly what it should
Exactly. Top isn't a problem without terminus either, but instead they banned the card out of the 3 that would kill miracles that made the least amount of sense.
>b-but miracles maybe would have survived as a much weaker deck
If you fuckers really hate countertop so much than you could have banned counterbalance too, it's not like it's any better banning 1 card instead of 2 when that 1 card relegates the other 2 cards to unplayability.
>>52894444
Ponders aren't even that good without fetches desu
>>52914319
I really wouldn't say that miracles is still a deck with top gone. It's not like when invigorate was banned from infect and the deck's plan was basically the same. Miracles plan WAS top. You can still play a deck with miracles, but it will be a totally different deck, not just a nerfed one.
>>52893571
>If it needed a ban at all, it needed to be top. Wizard's doesn't ban payoff cards, they ban engines and enablers.
this is objectively a stupid, nonsensical and indefensible policy. There's no reason why top is considered the enabler rather than counterbalance or terminus and there's no reason why "the enabler" are the cards that should be banned. In pauper they simply banned all combo decks by actually banning the cards responsible for the combos. Compare that to modern where combo decks are allowed, but aren't allowed to be good and so every combo deck just prays on its opponent not being able to interact with it well.

>>52882032

Functional reprint when

>>52903132
It's funny because it's true. Why were older cards so autisitcally prepared to explain everything?

>>52912449
>Imperial taxes
I've never heard of this somehow, got a list?

>>52914817
They wanted to kill Top for a long time now and we've all known it. Top slows down games and is annoying as fuck in the hands of some players, not for its power, but for the sheer slowplay factor. In their mind, this is really bad. Legacy Players are a shitton more resilient to slow play, though, so they couldn't just shoot it like in Modern. Miracles was just their excuse to pull the trigger.
The time factor is the one and only reason.

>>52914975
Because those cases weren't covered by the basic rules yet and some autistic fuck somewhere would argue "Hwell, shince I've played a card and now have only 5 cards in hand and your Mind Twisht tellsh me to dishcard 6 cards and I cannot do so, it obvioushly doesh nothing."

>>52914975
Lack of established rules templating.

>>52915049
>target player loses next turn
Heh.

>>52882032
Reprint please

>>52915096
God, just imagine the amount of salt Time Walk could have created.

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>>52915049
>Because those cases weren't covered by the basic rules yet

This. Like, look at the original Hive. Look at this giant wall of text explaining what tokens are. Why does it do that? Because it has to. It's the first and only card that creates tokens. There were no rules for tokens, so the card itself has to explain how they work. It was like this for everything more complicated than Lightning Bolt.

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>>52915049
You know what else they could have done to prevent this? Instead of saying the amount of cards they need to discard with all the other contrived shit attached to it, they could have just as easily written it as discard UP TO six cards.

>>52915006
I believe this is a big part of why wotc banned top. I also believe it is a worse reason than simply to nerf miracles. If you need miracles another way, there won't be any decks abusing top to the extent that it slows games down. It only slows games down when you go "CB trigger, spin top, crack fetch, spin, crack, spin," every damn time they cast a spell, and take a billion turns to actually win on top of that

>>52915431
That makes it sound like the targeted player can just choose to discard 0.

>>52914984
I believe it is just death and taxes but splashing imperial recruiter and magus of the moon, and maybe some red sideboard cards

>>52915218

Dem 5 Mana 1/1 Flyers

>>52915006
>>52915482
At least if this is true, it means that we won't get many more bans.

>>52915503
Why would it be up to his decision? He has to discard up to that amount, meaning the highest amount possible, not below it.

WHO HERE /DREDGE/ BOYS
SMASH THAT MUTHA FUCKIN GRAVEYARD

Why is goblin recruiter banned? All I can find is that it's good with food chain but I don't follow the rest

>>52915605
It lets you stack your entire library. then imagine if the goblin player cracks a fetch and plays another one, then has to stack his entire library again. It's a pretty good card, maybe it deserves to be on the ban list on power level alone, but it also takes so fucking long to resolve his ability.

>>52915636
Makes sense, I was seeing stuff about the deck being able to chain a bunch of stuff together though but I don't see how that happens

>>52915594
I'm dredgin' it up to get justice for DDFT

>>52915646
You can stack goblin ringleaders every 4 cards and "go off" with food chain that way

>>52915784
With warchief that seems like it'd get absurd
sounds really fun to try though

>>52888784

Aren't force of will and brainstorm the 2 most played cards?

>>52915977
Force of will is played a ton but its the glue holding legacy together. Brainstrorm is a great cantrip but it doesnt enable degeneracy and doesnt take long to resolve.

>>52916049
>doesn't enable degeneracy
>every combo deck plays 4 brainstorms

I'm not saying brainstorm needs to be banned, but cantrips increase the consistency of combo decks by a fucking mile. Look at shitty modern combo decks like storm and ad nauseam. They are trash compared to legacy combo decks, but if they were allowed to play ponder/preordain/brainstorm, they would actually be decent. This isn't a big problem though because it also increases the consistency of fair legacy decks with free/cheap interaction. In modern you can't brainstorm into a force of will/daze/flusterstorm or whatever to counter the combo deck's payoff, so these types of cantrips would help degenerate strategies more than the fair strategies.

>>52915564
Current card templating dictates that "up to" gives a player a choice to choose a number between 0 and whatever. See cards like abandon reason, or diminishing returns for an example where the opponent is allowed a choice.

Was vengevine survival really that busted? I got into magic around late 2011 and miracles weren't a thing back then.

>>52917150
Back then it was countertop.
I had my miracles deck before then. I got it when it was just a dreadstill netdeck from cheon when he wore the adventureson shirt.

f

>>52917150
Yes. 12 power hasted turn 2. Then a bunch of toolbox for disruption

>>52904943

This isn't even a parenting issue, it's just pure incompetence as a human being

>hurrr durrr Ima auction a bunch of shit I don't understand and not even consult the Internet or anybody about how much it's worth

>Control is Control, no matter where you go.
>A counter is a counter, that's what I say.
>Removal is removal, this is surely so...
>And locks should be locks either way!
>But this control is not a home, this is not the deck I know...
>I would trade it all away if you'd come back to stay...
>This format’s not the same without you!
>It's just a cheeky brew,
>Just a cheeky brew,
>Without you...

Tomorrow is the last day you can play Miracles