Banlist update 4/24

>>52870832
Top is banned? Poor legacy guys

Wow this is huge for tournament organizers.

>>52870832
I don't think that this is going to a popular ban in the slightest. Twin-tier in unpopularity is my guess.

>>52870959

Should have included Brainstorm as well. It was always stupid to ban it in Modern for logistics reasons while leaving it legal in Legacy. (FWIW, I agree that it should be banned for logistics reasons)

Daaaaaaaamn

>>52870959
Unpopular for people who play Miracles.
Popular for people who had to play against Miracles.

>>52870979
At least at my shop, I don't think I've ever had or seen a game go to time against miracles.
It might be a player skill or casual vs competitve thing, and I admit that its a biased sample, but I've never actually seen the logistics thing really come into play.
>>52871003
Hey, I'm on DnT, and I actually kind of like playing against miracles.

>>52870832
Ahahahaha
Fuck yes, it took them long enough.
Miracles babbies have had a ban coming for a long time now. And banning Gush might make Mentor decks less prevalent in Vintage too. All in all, good shit.

>>52870979
>It was always stupid to ban it in Modern
But brainstorm was never printed in a non supplemental, post Mirrodin set

*Distant REEEEE from Miracles players heard in the background*

>>52870979
Brainstorm is not banned in Modern. It's just never been legal.

>>52871154
>>52871258

Was referring to Top in that second sentence. Poor structuring on my part.

>>52870979

>>52870979
>Brainstorm should be banned

Nigga if you don't wanna play Blue just go to Modern. Your win/loss ratios by at least an order of magnitude if you're a non Blue player.

>>52871204
>legacy Jund players slowly load the bullets into the chambers

>Miracles banned via top
I got it when it was just a standstill deck. It was my first real deck. F

Finally, control is dead in every format.

Took them long enough.

>>52871451
We still have Tron in modern

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>>52871531
>Tron
>control

Question...
If top is banned in Legacy, does that mean it is banned in Commander as well? I ask cause I am pretty sure they share a banlist.

>>52871585
No. Separate banlists.

>>52870832
Does this mean that I should just go out and buy a bunch of deathrite shamans?
I also have no idea what to do with DnT now.

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Dear Legacy,

Your queen courtesan may be banned, but here in Pauper we've got plenty of comely, buxom girl-next-door strumpets you can slake your Blue lusts on for a dime. Come join the Pauper whore's alley! Vintage-kun is invited too I think he might be reeling from the Probe and Gush restrictions.

>>52871585
Welcome to the internet. I assume you've been living under a rock for 10 years?

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>>52870832
> Top finally banned

MY DICK IS ROCK HARD RIGHT NOW!

>>52871666
To be fair it was a really comfy rock.

>control is no more

How does this make you feel?

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>>52870832
>Standard is still a two deck format
>sfm cheating out a batterskull on turn 3 at the earliest is still somehow too powerful in a meta with 1 mana 7/7s
>destroying a legacy archetype
>restricting vintage staples that aren't overly oppressive

>>52871794
You dont unban stf because literally every deck running white would run it. Death shadow is good but they had to play cards beforehand to make it powerful

I have 12 post. I used top. So great against miracles now my game just got weaker too..

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>People going crazy over top ban
>no one caring about massive Vintage changes
What did the Mtg community mean by this?

>>52871851
4/4 lifelinker still isn't good enough for modern. SFM has lost power over time and is the same level as bitterblossom.

>>52871872
No one plays Vintage. Hell, barely anyone plays Legacy.

>>52871902
Sfm would gross in death and taxes and coco decks. Basically a free tutor

joe lossett streaming his suicide when

>>52872009
Right, but the power of DnT comes from using vial to break symmetrical mana denial.
You don't have the most unfair thing that the deck can do in modern. SFM would be great, but junk would get more out of it, I think, and at least before I switched to the legacy version, I had a lot of trouble with goyfs and other random big dudes without Mother of runes.

>>52871872
Legacy is the format everyone pretends to play. Nobody cares about Vintage.

>>52870979
>>52871003
>>52871086
I doubt that any of the faggots that are celebrating this even plays Legacy. This is a really dumb decision by WOTC.

i had 2 sitting in my old stack of commons and i didn't even know. ;_;

>>52872055
Death shadow junk would probably be the best deck in the format

I'm done with Magic now. I've disagree with pretty much every single ban since Twin got the ax, and this is their most retarded decision yet. I'm sick of this stupid bullshit.

>>52872322
That really sucks anon. But desu you had pretty shit taste. Twin and Miracles? #cancer

>>52870832
>Gush re-restricted.
That took longer than I expected.
>it was so we could keep monastery mentor at four of
Good decision

>Top out of legacy
That's kind of sad, the only legacy deck I ever bothered to purchase in paper.
A couple years ago I had to sell the damn thing to fix my car.
At least there will be fewer indecisive fucks trying to play a high decision deck and going to time every round.

Wow, it's fucking nothing. Why is wizards messing with dead formats when no one will come over to standard?

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>>52870832

>Felidar Guardian not banned

>>52872408
>At least there will be fewer indecisive fucks trying to play a high decision deck and going to time every round.

I blame the ban almost squarely on these people.
>Whats the best deck?
>Well depends on what you want
>The best deck.
>Miracles but you may no-
>Miracles it is!
>...
>Ugh need to top a 3rd time to remember what I put back at the begining of the second main

>>52871604
>I also have no idea what to do with DnT now.
'keep on winning' seems correct.

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>>52872055
>You don't have the most unfair thing that the deck can do in modern.
don't i?

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>>52872379
Those decks rewarded tight play and good decision making.

Maybe you're just a huge fucking faggot.

>>52871604
>I also have no idea what to do with DnT now.

Throw it in the trash.

>>52870832

We have another thread up you mongloid

>>52872542
Miracles did but was a bitch to play against.

Twin didn't. Most boring deck ever.

>>52872584
>Twin didn't. Most boring deck ever.

Shows how shitty you are at the game, not surprised you thought they were cancer.

>>52871794
>>Standard is still a two deck format
For 5 more days only.
We don't what will change with Amonkhet

>>52872584
I'd tell you to go back to Hearthstone, but Wizards is dumbing down this game for people like you, so you may as well stay.

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>>52872691
>We don't what will change with Amonkhet

LOL

Standard players everyone.

>>52872691

Probably won't change much. I don't know what the pros have been brewing in secret, but most of the internet has been pretty in the dark for competitive brews that I have seen. Albeit I only look at a couple sites, I doubt there is much out there for standard.

>>52872322
You disagreed with Eye being banned in Modern? Really?

>>52872743
Who? Where? I don't play standard for now

Big sorry DDFT guy. You will be missed.

>>52872781

Why would standard change, they didn't print any playable answers to the two top decks.

>>52872824
I think people fail to realize that cat combo only gets better with new sets.

Nothing is rotating out, there's literally just more cards to make it more oppressive.

>>52872824
>>52872882
>>52872774
What about Standard becoming a one deck format?

>>52872904
Could be.

>>52872904

There is a lot more hate for Mardu Vehicles than there is for Copycat, so it very well could be a 1 deck format, with everything else being tier 2.

>>52871794
>destroying a legacy archetype
They've done this a billion times. Not that big of a deal. Survival anyone? Omnitell with DTT?

>>52872824
But they did print an answer, it's just that answer dies to shock and it only in green

I'm calling it now, they have one shot to see if Amonkhet somehow ruins the Cat Combo (spoiler: it won't, and it's already been about a month overdue for banning) in PT this weekend, and if there are still no answers it gets banned in the next announcement.

>>52873065
There's a black one too

>>52872322
>be a modern player
>nothing happens in modern
>cancer died in legacy
FUCK WIZARDS!!!

RIP Miracles, you won't be missed.

>>52872533
Not reliably enough to make playing a bear worth it.

>>52872824
>Mentor could have been decent
>But no, there must never be a good answer to planeswalkers

Is this the worst B&R Update of all time?

I mean it basically says they're fine with the two most popular formats being one-deck formats while two barely populated formats are regulateable because the secondary market doesn't care about them.

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>>52873343
it's not fair

>>52871086
Why the flying fuck was Gush unrestricted, goddamn.

>>52871585
Nah, though people do get angry if you take too much time fiddling with it.

>>52873387
Modern is doing fine. We dont need more bans

>>52871872
>why does no one care about the format whose main playerbase is online
Mate, paper vintage is something only oldfags or rich idiots with more money than brains have access to.

>>52873807
No, but we need unbans.
UNBAN TROLL
FREE MY PEOPLE
LEBENSRAUM WHEN
REEEEEEEEEEE

>we are banning top because it makes tournaments take too long
>Legacy
>tournaments
Something doesnt add up here.

>>52870832
>Standard:
>No changes

Oh boy, really looking forward to another year of Mono Gideons.

I literally bought a Top for 8 euros last week. Fucking wizards, at least it was for edh.

Any chances that this ban will reduce Cavern of Souls' price in the future?

>>52874015
Likely not. Outside of a copy or two in miracles, the cards didnt have much overlap. Id certainly say now is the time to pick them up off some grieving miracles player

>>52874015
No. Cavern is too much of a good card by itself, it's not like it was just played in opposition to Miracles.

>>52874011
Doesn't Amonkhet's use of -1/-1 counters kinda fuck Gideon over?

>>52874094

What in standard would use -1/-1 counters? Almost nothing.

>>52874044
I meant caverns as in anti-miracles tech, not played in miracles.

>>52874048
>>52874187
>>52874044
Caverns does nothing. It just gets a single guy in, only to get Plowed, Terminus or blocked by million mentor tokens

>>52872824
As if they would print an answer to a planeswalker or a combo involving one, as if. Or god forbid, they would ban one. How long did it take them to ban Jace in modern again?

>>52871585
>does that mean it is banned in Commander as well?
If they ever did, I'd personally mail MaRo my whole card collection sprinkled with anthrax

>>52874094
almost everything in Amonkhet use "-1/-1 on creatures you control" so I doubt it'll change anything

>>52874316

The game is overdue for something like R - Instant - Deal 5 to a planeswalker.

>>52873963
you not recognizing by far the best format

Ahahahahaahahahaha Standard is deeeeeeeeeeeeead

>>52871364
Who?

>>52871451
UB Teachings, Standstill, 4c Czech Pile, Grixis Control, Standard Copycat, Lantern Control, Lands...

>>52871794
>>restricting vintage staples that aren't overly oppressive
gush was pretty bad m8

>>52871451
>>52874783
most prison is also control so add all bloodmoon decks for instance

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There already was an extremely efficient answer to Copycat, right the fuck here. Amonkhet isn't going to magically change things by having another one that's three times as expensive and dies to literally any interaction. Amonkhet would need to print some truly heinous answers to even think about evening out the mess WotC has made, and guess what, slightly upgraded fucking Ruinous Path isn't that.

Cat should have been banned. Standard is not going to change. I don't know what the fuck WotC is thinking.

>>52874864
I still like to keep slamturn1moonandrideittovictory.decs that use the card as a means to buy time for a combo or beating face with whatever (stompy, painter) and actual prison decks (Lantern & co) separate but arguably yeah.

>>52874868

Manglehorn is a card for copycat, not to beat it. It's far more effective against Mardu Vehicles - this is going to be a one deck format.

>>52871562
Yes. It's a combo deck for 3 turns, and then a control deck for the rest of the game. If you run 4 Karns, how could you not be control?

>>52875146
It's not even a combo deck. It's just straight up a ramp deck.

>>52874868
Reprint torpor orb or put its ability on a stick (hushwing I think?)

>>52870888
I was hoping WotC would see how Harsh Mentor changes (or doesn't change) legacy before banning top.

>>52874094
Sorcery speed + target creature = laughing Gideons

"While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs."

BUY JACES
BUY JACES
BUY JACES

>>52875246
Reminder that ramp isn't an archetype nor a gameplan but a means of executing it.

>>52874868
>dies to interaction
New hot meme

>>52875401

"Ramp into big shit that your opponent can't handle" is definitely a gameplan and implied by the word ramp.

>>52870832
F

>tfw your poor friend has been saving up for like 2 years to finish miracles
What do I tell him?

>>52875492

At least he was saving his money and not buying cards here and there, r-right anon?

>>52875458
Your opponent being unable to handle with your shit is their fault, not a function of your deck. You can ramp into a tap-out control game plan (Tron), a one-shot kill (Scapeshift), swarm beatdown (Elves) or just a beefy midrange plan (Nic Fit), just saying a deck ramps is saying fuck all.

>>52875507
Aside from counter balance the rest of the deck is expensive in the right places. Its not like jtms FoW and the fetches are losing value over this.

>>52875401
Reminder that you're a fucking retard and your arbitrary definitions mean nothing

>>52874706
That doesn't change the fact that Legacy doesn't have tournaments.

>>52875507
No he literally just finished it , he's been wanting to play it for so long, really feel bad, I don't think he knows yet, he literally just picked up the last tundra he needed on eBay like a week ago

>>52873343
But...it IS a good answer to planeswalkers?
You drop it, they crew a vehicle or tap some artifact or do anyfuckingthing other than tap a land or use a walker ability, redirect to their walker.
If it activated on a walker, it'd make them completely unplayable while it was around unless those walkers all had +3s

>>52875722
>>52875538

>>52875538
>>52875722
hes right
you are wrong

>>52875538
>tron
>anything but midrange

God damnit tg stop being retarded. What does tron do when it goes up against a control deck? Oh yeah it plays beat down and jams threats down the opponent's throat.

>>52875981
Prevents the opponent from winning then turns the tables with Karn/Ulamog/Ugin? Just like in every other matchup. Tron wins the long game every time, it's the Nahiri/Grixis pilot's job to beat face asap. Tron's wins are just less deterministic and maybe some turns slower without Emrakul.

>>52876058
Just because they win the long game doesn't mean the deck is slower or more controlling. It means their threat density and value is higher.

>>52870832
I'm surprised, one would've guessed they would wait how harsh mentor deals with miracles in legacy before killing the deck.

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>>52876058
>Prevents the opponent from winning then turns the tables with Karn/Ulamog/Ugin? Just like in every other matchup. Tron wins the long game every time, it's the Nahiri/Grixis pilot's job to beat face asap.
Nigga do you even play modern? In control and combo matchups RG Tron IS the aggressor/beatdown, that is their fucking job because combo ignores the board and control outvalues you.

>>52876260
>because combo ignores the board
So what? You can't outrace any combo deck with any Tron draw that doesn't involve interaction, any clock is useless if you can't stick an early active Karn vs Ad Nauseam or Valakut (assuming no bolt after -3) and have Nature's Claim/Warping Wail/Slaughter Games/yard hate or whatevs.
>control outvalues you.
Haha, yeah good luck outvaluing back to back Karn, Ugin, Ulamog, Wurmcoil, recurring World Breaker if no Path to Exile.

Turn 3 Karn is not "aggression", even if Uxx cannot (realistically) deal with him once he hits the board.

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> Aaron Forsythe@mtgaaron 14m14 minutes ago
>The catalyst for B&R changes to ANY format is player feedback (then we go to data, design theory, & testing). So thank you for all feedback!

4 fucking months of people bitching about a LITERALLY 75%+ two deck format isn't god damn feedback but the vocal minority (of the minority that are legacy players) who wants to kill Miracles which is a deck whose % points are in the single digits over the next deck fucking is? In a format that is, by your fucking words, "protected" so that players who invest the fuckton of money needed to play (because you are shiteating fuckfaces that won't abolish the reserved list) don't commit sudoku when the decks they spend thousands and years building are wiped from the format? Did I mention also that Legacy has the most diverse and balanced playing field? Guess it's time to through that fucking shit out the window like what they did with modern and standard.

Fuck this shit, Wizards has been making shit call after shit call for a while now but this takes the fucking cake. I hope they get a wake up call sooner rather than later but I have no idea what is even enough to make those fucking massive faggots budge, clearly the mass exodus out of standard pre and after bans wasn't enough.

>>52876448
Why do you faggots always cite Karn? No shit Karn isn't "aggressive" in that he doesn't win on his own. What about t3 wurmcoil or t3 worldbreaker or t4 ugin or t4 ulamog? When you cherry pick of course you can pretend a deck is whatever archetype you want.

>>52876566
>What about t3 wurmcoil or t3 worldbreaker or t4 ugin
In most matchups they stabilize the board for you either by sweeping or the board or denying good attacks, World Breaker's #1 function is to keep you alive vs manlands and fliers, the fact that he's an "aggro play" vs Valakut and friends is secondary.
>t4 ulamog
Pretty christmasland and can be used as an aggressive line vs the relevant decks, yet Ulamog wouldn't see play if he didn't have double vindicate on cast to, again, stabilize the board.

>>52876653
>ah yes let me just play this wurmcoil/ugin/ulamog/worldbreaker against control to stabilize against their no threats on turn3/4

are you retarded?

>>52876748
>ah yes let me just play this wurmcoil/ugin/ulamog/worldbreaker against control to stabilize against their no threats on turn3/4
Well if you're playing vs control of course you're going to run them out just to use your mana and not because you're the beatdown, what the fuck man.

Will Monastery Mentor drop in price now please?

>>52876827
>of course you're going to run out your threats and beatdown the enemy but you're not the beatdown

I can't even believe someone could be this fucking stupid. I'll say it one more fucking time you mongoloid. Tron doesn't win vs control by answering the control player's threats. They win by trickling a steady stream of "let me 2 for 1 you while also playing a threat you must answer" creatures.

>>52876913
Tron beats control by playing Tron lands and just paying the 3 for Mana Leak.

>>52876913
How do Karn, Ugin, Oblivion Stone, spot removal of your choice, Ghost Quarter on manland not answer the control player's threats? Reversely, how exactly do any one of former except for Ugin win the game? Board being empty on turn n and your having something to commit to it doesn't prevent you from answering Snapcaster/Nahiri/manlands/Tasigur on n+1-10. If the Grixis player plays a turn 2 Tasigur, your turn 3 play's function as the everything but the beatdown -party is then to either answer it or blank it (Wurmcoil).

>>52877051
You can answer control players threats, however you are a much faster deck
Most of the time you are windmill slamming fatties that drain them of all of their resources as fast as possible, not waiting to kill their shit

>>52877051
Jesus fucking christ they DO answer the control player's threats but that isn't how they win. You play fat fuckers that eat their shit and force them to have an answer.

>>52877229
Ohhh I see. Control decks aren't control decks, because they run winconditions. Even if 80% of deck is committed to play effects that say "destroy/exile thing X".

>>52876843
> $14 is too expensive
Find a different hobby

>>52874783
>>52874864
There is only one good deck in that nice list of yours and it's 4c Czech Pile.

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>>52870832
>Legacy:

>Sensei's Divining Top is banned.

>Vintage:

>Gitaxian Probe is restricted.

>Gush is restricted.

STOP FUCKING MY DECKS YOU GOD DAMN INEPT SHITS I SWEAR TO FUCK YOU ALL DESERVE TO GET COLLECTIVELY SHOT
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>52877273
Fuck off Rudy

>>52871851
>because literally every deck running white

So, none of the good decks?

>>52877258
So Jund is control too now? Last time I checked most of their deck was killspells and hand disruption
Interaction =/= Control newfag, even if Randy Buehler says otherwise

>>52877345
>permission is the only type of control

>>52877273
Foil, nig nog

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To this day it fables me how they missed the cat combo, I saw the fucking mongoloids that comment on mythicspoiler 10 minutes after the card spoiled put 2 and 2 together but the "paid professionals" working 2 years in advance didn't.

Jesus fuck, if that isn't Wizards in a nutshell I don't know what is. Just plain, gross incompetence.

>>52874816
Not worse than Shops, which they hit last time because it was too oppressive except now that problem is going to be even worse because Mentor got fucked hard with this banning.

What's the point of hitting a deck for being oppressive if soon after you're going to hit another deck and make the first even more oppressive as a result?

So this B&R announcement has utterly destroyed Wizards' credibility. Everyone knows that Felidar Guardian should have been banned, everyone knows that Modern needs strong blue cards and Death's Shadow is a little too much, everyone knows Legacy is about as fun as a format gets, and there's only like 2 Vintage tournaments a year. So what do Wizards do? They leave Standard and Modern to rot, shake the absolute fuck out of Legacy, and dare to touch Vintage while claiming that a small sample size is the reason they're leaving Standard alone.

Everything about this B&R is backwards.

>>52877361
Yes

>>52877394
but anon they don't need to fix an infinite loop it will fix itself :^) that's how card games work right? The super strong cards just stop being strong if you print two counters to them!

>>52877419
This is factually incorrect

>>52875736
God fucking damnit. It never ceases to amaze me how players will just decide they want to play a deck and buy it without ever proxying it up.
If you want to play miracles, fucking print the cards out, sleeve them up and find someone to play with. People who shell out thousands of dollars just to be able to experience a certain deck's gameplay are autistic fucks who's personal identity are defined by the types of decks they decks the own.
I'd tell your friend get fucked, retard.

>>52877397
agreed
we should write a strongly worded letter

>>52877453
Why bother, just do what everyone else is doing and stop playing the game. Even my LGS owner has admitted that Standard is basically dead at his place now, after fervently denying it for months.

>>52877446
Define control without including every interactive deck under the definiton

how many modern decks use top? always wanted to pick one up for edh but it wasn't worth the price.

>>52877530
Most of them would. None of them can.

>>52877521
Deck that takes the control as opposed to beatdown role in most of its matchups, so Tron, Uxx, BGx.

>>52877530
>modern
>top

>Two decks make up 68% of Standard's Meta

Has it ever been this bad?

>>52877611
Cawblade desu

>>52877578
>control takes control :^)
>BGx is control
At least try dude

>>52877448
Magic players are fucking retarded man. They've been fed the most ridiculous lines of bullshit by the community:
- look at how big my collection is
- you need to play with real cards even if the format isn't fucking sanctioned
- buy a deckbuilder's toolkit or intro deck because it's going to get you addicted; because it sure as fuck isn't going to teach you how decks work

I can't tell you how many people I know who own "gauntlets" in Legacy or Commander, which are one of each deck of the format so they can "test". Well they fucking suck at the game, so it's done them no good. They just want to have every fucking deck available so they can look like a nice guy so they can lend decks to people - which is fine, if it wasn't a colossal waste of fucking money.

They just need goddamn goals in this game and getting good is too hard so they set goals like finding new shit to buy.

>>52877572
>>52877592
i see it's already been banned there. maybe prices will drop, then.

>>52877648
Not my fault you're not willing to go with established definitions. Just about every game of Magic has the aggressor and the defender, the deck that is the latter most of the time is a control deck.

>>52871794
Yes. A 4/4 Lifelink Vigilance that never dies is more powerful than an agro player's 7/7.

>>52877611
Yes. Cawblade, Affinity, and a bunch of old shit from way back in the day when combo decks would just stomp.

The significance of Standard bannings with Copter and Emrakul isn't so much that it's a Standard banning, it's a Standard banning and the creation of their new policy of basically "shaking up the format" if it ever gets stagnant.

But then they don't even fucking dismantle Copy Cat as a deck DESPITE ACKNOWLEDGING IT AS A MISTAKE AND A PROBLEM and letting Gideon, Ally of Fuck run rampant.

Standard is a shitshow and probably the worst handled format in the entire game, no joke.

>>52877692
Technically Top was never banned in Modern. It was just never legal.

>>52877729
You know, Batterskull is often just a really fast T3 creature. It's excellent on T3 or any other turn it drops, but very often, decks in Modern are fast enough that they'll just kill the germ and you're not going to have enough mana to bring it back out before you're dead.

>>52877692
Don't count on it.
For one, the only way cards that are six years or older ever see a price drop is in a reprint, and Eternal Masters was about a year ago, so I reckon it's already back to its pre-reprint price.
Second, it's a hot EDH card.

>>52877695
>Not my fault you're not willing to go with established definitions
The established definition of control is permission/kill strategy that runs its opponent out of resources
> Just about every game of Magic has the aggressor and the defender
Blatantly false
>the deck that is the latter most of the time is a control deck
Being slower =/= control

>>52877811
>The established definition of control is permission
Wrong.

>>52877745

Felidar Guardian is utterly mindboggling. Even if it was intentional I have no idea how they would think a 2 card Infinite that was playable as early as Turn 4 in a format with some pretty weak Control options would not just run off.

At least there are a few more spells that can hit Gideon, now.

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>>52877906

>>52871652
i fucking love pauper.

>>52877938

How much longer do they need to see the combo dominate in Standard?

>>52877784
The games when you lose to DSJ and other fast decks were decided the moment each player drew their first 7 cards. If the DSJ player has a perfect hand, there's not a card in the world that can win you the game, so plan instead for those games where your opponent has anything less than a perfect hand. In these situations, the game can often drag on to turn 5 or longer, and Batterskull is king in those games.

>>52877745
I can't wait to see what a shitshow the pro tour is
I've been testing standard and I can't even think of a deck that counters it and I just keep coming back to "why not play cat?"
It's not just that it goes infinite, it's that it can dig and stall very hard and do those both at the same time
It's stupid and so are planewalkers

>>52877938
>killed Aetherworks Marvel because people complained about dying to Emrakul on t4
>Copy Cat can kill on t4 just as easily and is a better deck because you don't need to run shit like Marvel that can miss
>everyone fucking hates it
>Kaladesh Standard is probably one of the worst Standards in recent history, two deck format and neither deck makes for interactive games
>deck lives through the PT and could very well live through PT Amonkhet as well

No justice.

Wizards could have mitigated Standard going to shit if they had put in the effort to playtest outside of their in-bred in-house testing.

It would have cost them money and effort but it would have saved the format.

But they know players are addicted and won't actually stop playing. Or to be clear, you can fix your fuck up and people will return as if nothing happened. And ultimately, it will have been cheaper to fuck up and fix it than to have paid to make sure the boat stays afloat. It's not just Wizards, every company with a loyal following does this. Consider how many people suffering with drug addiction successfully get off compared to the number of people who can't; it's an addiction mechanism these companies exploit.

A Masters product never significantly solves any problem in terms of price or supply for the long-term yet when they come out the most prominent and outspoken parts of the community immediately jump on Wizards' dick to thank them for pissing in their mouth.

I seriously discourage people from playing this game. I feel like I would be wasting their time, money, and love.

>>52878065
>players are addicted and won't actually stop playing
This is false. My LGS is a graveyard for Standard, and FNMs have switched over to Modern recently.

>>52877258
You are a moron, truly. Interaction is not "control" and 80% of tron is not fucking kill spells. Tron is removal stapled to fatties, they kill your shit while developing a board, then beat you down while stopping you from recovering, almost like how a midrange deck operates, funny huh?

>>52878065
I really think the Pauper kids are right. Wizards doesn't care about the format at all, and that's what lets it shine. I wish LGS' would give it some support.

>>52878100
I've seen more people come for legacy than standard in my area
The only people that come for standard are the pros in my area coming to test stuff

>>52878065
>But they know players are addicted and won't actually stop playing.

Supposedly that's why Copter and Emrakul were banned to begin with; because LGS couldn't even fire of FNM Standard tournaments anymore due to how low attendance was. But, like, how much higher can attendance be now in this stale as fuck current format that it's allowed to slide?

I'm completely off the boat. I've sold the majority of my binders and am in the process of selling off the rest now before WotC decides to reprint the last few valuable cards I have in some shitty Masters set of 10 value cards and the rest being Limited fodder.

Moved completely to playing Shadowverse. The meta gets fucky sometimes but at least I can build meta decks every time a new expansion is released completely f2p thanks to vials.

>>52878100

Outside of the biggest store in my area Standard is all but dead, too.

>>52877578
>actually saying that Jund is control
It's midrange, just like Tron.

>>52877397
>no one plays standard because it's a shitty 2 deck format
>Well, we didn't get a lot of feedback on the format so nothing changes lmao

>>52878180

I'm thinking about just chugging along on a budget mode until the next set so I can play a Grixis Deck with Nicol Bolas in it. Then I'll sell off my cards and just maintain mid power level Commander decks for game nights with friends.

>>52878100
They will come back. A huge majority of them will come back if Wizards unfucks themselves and tell themselves that Wizards learned to love them (not their dollars) like a shitty girlfriend who wants you back.

That's the point, they won't stop playing i.e. spending money. Look at all the people who leave and come back who ask day after day how to get back into the game.

They'll move to Modern or some other format and the store will adjust and suffer the brunt of Wizards' fuck ups but if something changes, they'll switch right back to Standard forgetting that it was ever bad. And Wizards doesn't give a fuck about their stores anyways so they don't care if the store closes as a result of their retardation. Stores close all the time because it's a shit business to be in.

>>52878251
If these players have already transitioned to Eternal, it's gonna be a real hard sell to get them back to Standard.

>>52878251
>They will come back
Why would they? Player retention rate has been dropping for years, there's no reason to think that'll change now.

>>52878342
I actually really hope that the next set is complete trash, so that it end's up being the final nail in the coffin for Standard.

>>52878436
So long as players keep buying sets and rationalizing that next set will be better Standard will never end.

>>52878327
>If these players have already transitioned to Eternal
That's what I'm saying. You're buying a different drug but you're still using the same fucking drug dealer and one day everyone who moved from heroin to cocaine will come back to heroin and as a bonus, they're also buying cocaine. Most people don't have the balls to just pack up and leave; it's not their fault, there's a lot to love about Magic - it deserves your love; and Wizards exploits that love. Don't get me wrong, the company deserves to make money; it's just that instead of making a good quality product they've reliably produced broken shit year after year, like Nintendo. And I think it's absolutely insane that anybody would transition to Eternal as it's just a financial shitshow and just a bad purchasing decision because the prices are so goddamn high to begin with.

>>52878342
Well I've been saying that too for many many years. And no matter how fucking bad it gets there's always enough players who are too stupid to let go and they'll always anchor down and the community builds around them. Nothing shore of the store dying will change them; but often some wide-eyed person opens up another store; or you live in a city that has an established store that sells a variety of products and services. There will always be an outlet. They have so much money because of Hasbro backing them they can come back; this isn't some casual death like a video game studio or author dying; someone will find some way to milk the ever-present addicts.

>>52878436
Amonkhet is nothing but underpowered trash with nut-Mythics.

>>52878513
>but you're still using the same fucking drug dealer
Nah man, you're buying singles instead of packs. There's a difference. Plus, if you already have 1 good deck, lots of players are just gonna stop buying every season like with Standard and buy cards less and less.

>>52878513
You don't know anything about business if you think Hasbro backing them means they can magically fail and not be shut down.

>>52878563
>you're buying singles instead of packs
Where the fuck do you think the singles came from, the aether? It seems weird to me how so few people realize that the secondary market IS what magic is and should it cease to exist so will the game and by extension by supporting it you are supporting the game and Wizards.

Magic has "died" two times at my store.

Once was a combination of Chronicles and Statis-decks. That destroyed regular play but sales continued.

It came back briefly for a couple years building up to death with Onslaught, because casuals just got really salty about tribes. So events stopped after that.

And now it's built up again. Starting with the M10 surge. It's been going since then thanks to pushes with Commander and Deckbuilder Kits and the video games. And it's going to eat shit again; I would dare say it died with Khans.

But throughout it all, the same people came back or persisted playing the game occasionally in the store on a Sunday. Those people were always there buying product, giving the owner justification to order. The kitchen table players continued to buy throughout it all even when there was no actual sanctioned play going on. The singles were maintained and were constantly moving.

The store remains because the owner isn't a retard and it's a diversified business and has never depended on Magic to keep going. Magic has always been profitable for the owner but he treat it like milk at the grocery store - sometimes you lose money with it, but you fucking need it because it gets people through the door.

That's the thing... it gets people through the door. There will be big ups and big downs but the industry won't let it die. Wizards doesn't care about stability or the emotions of its customers because they won't stop coming back.

>>52878738
Old Singles, (I.E. the singles that are played in Modern) come from nowhere. When people are looking for copies of Aether Vial, they don't go cracking open packs of Darksteel.

>>52878738
>T. Rudy

The last format with a real control deck just killed it. End of an era.

>>52878604
Hasbro can just fucking fire everyone at Wizards working on Magic and hand all the Magic properties to another comapny or hire new managers.

I promise the Magic brand will never die and because players are complete fucking retards who don't pay attention to whoever is at the helm, they'll keep buying it.

It happened with Fallout. Spiderman movie rights have been thrown around to who knows how many studios. Star Wars, no matter the shitshow of the prequels people are continuing to buy this shit. Do you think Brian Herbert cared to maintain the quality of the Dune property? If the Colonel was alive today he'd lose his shit over what KFC has become.

>>52873343
>Mentor could have been decent
If it were not printed in Red, perhaps.

>>52878035
Didn't you know? The common curse, the artifact-hating hill giant, and harsh mentor will OBVIOUSLY make everything better.
Despite the fact that there was better already around and it didn't help.

>>52878888
Not to mention the thousands of non-store owner people who have built their careers/lives around Magic. Those people have no other skills in life (Kibler, PV, Martel, LSV, and Sperling are all exceptions) and they'll stump for the game forever just to keep their lifestyle going.

I'll be honest with you people. I don't play Legacy or Vintage. Just doesn't happen locally.

Hell, it doesn't even happen in the big city, sanctioned play I mean. The only people who play Legacy are the people sitting at home over a couple beers.

And yet we're talking about it. I'm talking about it. And I feel that talking about something that has zero impact for probably 95% of Magic players just gives credibility to Wizards looking as if they "care" or are "looking busy" when in reality they're probably just looking on Reddit, seeing that someone posted a photo of a sign that says "Ban Top" outside their headquarters, and thought it would be a good PR move to kill the card or their upper management asked about it and said it would be a good PR move.

Everything about this reeks. Who the fuck actually cares about Vintage. I mean really. What is more important, Vintage players or fucking Standard? I don't know; I don't know how often Legacy or Vintage fire online or if the numbers online dipped because Top is so degenerate. But I doubt this was a data-backed move.

Need more data :^)

>>52878964
For a while I was mad that Kibler had all but moved on from MtG to Hearthstone, now I can hardly blame him considering WotC is trying to make their game the same uninteractive shit. Can't fault the man for going where the money does.

>>52879165
As far as I'm concerned Kibler is the only prominent player with some balls. He said it was going to shit and after being ignored for years he actually left.

He came back to spoil Bonfire of the Damned for Modern Masters, which I was kinda disappointed in. Yes, it was a good joke, but I wish he told the company to go fuck themselves and he's not going to use his meme to help them anymore; not when they reprinted a fucking Limited-breaking card into Modern Masters. Bonfire was only going to ruin games it was a bad idea all around.

>>52879251
>caring about limited in a fucking Masters set

Are you for real?

>>52879165
Putting your eggs from Wizards to Blizzard is akin to going from hoarding Seances to hording Sin Prodder, both are equally retarded.

I know this is going to sound fucking cancerous but I'm glad for the change in the meta

>>52879251
I still don't understand why they need to make a fucking reprint set limited friendly
You have Conspirancy for limited experience and it's actually pretty good, just reprint every fucking card that needs reprints in the Master sets

>>52879293
Hey, I don't actually care but you can now take a hard look at the people saying Modern Masters is a "great Limited set" and say they have no fucking clue what they're talking about. Entreat is also a bad fucking idea too. If you ask me there's no way the format can be great when someone can just break the game with those cards.

>>52879293
Is there another aspect to care about?
If you say the reprints, I'm going to laugh at you.

>>52879351
>just reprint every fucking card that needs reprints in the Master sets
Or Commander where it won't do any damage at all.

Oh wait, can't have non-Commander players buying the fucking Commander product. Let's just fill the decks with dogshit even Commander players don't even want.

Even though it's developments job to balance cards it feels like there hasn't been an interesting card or mechanic in a long time
Everything has just felt bad for a while

>>52879351
Because limited is the reason people open packs.

I still think the masters sets being limited run and twice the price of regular packs was a fucking mistake though. Drafting MM was fun, but not at the heinous price tag they put on it.

>>52875340
>Harsh Mentor changes (or doesn't change) legacy before banning top.

Harsh Mentor would just get
A. Countered
B. Terminus (maybe they lose 2 life)
C. Go to live life as a farmer

You can't just beat Miracles with one card. That's why the deck reigned supreme for so long.


>>52871364
>legacy Jund players slowly load the bullets into the chambers
Aka "I'm so boring I like to play Modern but in a more expensive format"

>>52872798
This, RIP in peace my friend

>>52877394
I read that for most of development, the cat blinked creatures, but they changed it at the last minute for undisclosed reasons.

>>52879670
>I read that for most of development, the cat blinked creatures, but they changed it at the last minute for undisclosed reasons.

Holy crap, if you're serious - it really proves that they just can't learn a lesson, no matter how many times it bites them in the ass.

>>52879670
If you are referring to the Fat Sam article that talks about the Cat and mentions how they missed it then he says that it SHOULD have said "creature or artifact" as opposed to permanent, it was an after the fact comment he made.

Even if what you are saying is true I would argue that that is even worse and only proves further incompetence and lack of thought on their part, I mean that is literally the story of how Skullclamp got made. They can't weasel out of this one.

>>52879670
>>52879835
see
>>52877938

>>52879670
To be honest I'd rather they push cards to say permanent more often for the sake of interaction - flickering universal permanents is not a common interaction and it would be nice to have more o fit. You can still push cards like that and avoid the interaction it has with Saheeli. On the flipside Cruel Mentor should say "permanent"; shit should shoot Planeswalkers in the face.

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>>52880148
>Cruel Mentor
Wow what a stupid bitch

>>52880148
>Cruel Mentor
Nah, I get why they did what they did. It would read:

1R
If your opponent activates the minus ability of a planeswalker they control, destroy that planeswalker.

While walkers are cancer, and that card would be good, it would be horrible in Wizard's baby format, particularly with how pushed planeswalkers are at the moment.

>>52877397
This, desu.

>>52880484
It's their own damn fault for shoving Jace and Friends down everyone's throats. They pushed them to have a marketable face and characters for MtG so they could whore it out on merchandise, movies, funko pop dolls, all that fucking garbage at the detriment to the actual game.

I'm at the point where I hope the game crashes and burns with player attendance rates at tournaments reaching all-time lows and streamed tournaments being so boring the viewership plummets.

>>52880638
Where's the ruling on that?

>>52880484
I know they're completely against interaction especially with Planeswalkers, but it just strikes me as an intrinsically shit move by not letting Harsh Mentor shoot a Planeswalker. It's just such an awful move that I can hold it up as the prime suspect proving that Wizards doesn't give a fuck about interaction and is pushing a dumbed down retard-product to sell to crybabies. It offends me that they clutter the stupid line with all the types; they did it recently with another card but this one, this one specifically could have shot Walkers. It could have been the less-garbage Hexmage and STILL not be good enough to check Walkers.

But to elaborate often Planeswalkers get card advantage with every ability they do. Without a Harsh Mentor they just run over things protected by an idiotic lack of interaction with them.

If you shot a Mentor with a Planeswalker's ability, the Mentor still fucking dies. Or if you make a 2/2 token, you still got value even though your Walker is dead. You can even + a Planeswalker and voila, it survives AND you've net advantage.

I'm just... really mad. I think Harsh Mentor could have been an eloquent design that would signal a move to interactive gameplay with Planeswalkers (regardless if it was good or not) and they actively sabotaged it. It's obvious they know like you say. It's just sad. It's just sad that you have proof they're not interested in making the best game possible anymore or their definition of "best" includes "not pissing off people who value red-colored-rarity above all else".

>>52880148
>>52880373

Technically Harsh Mentor can shoot Planeswalkers in the face. You can redirect the damage from the player.

>>52880638
Do you really think I'm not aware of that and needed to point it out?

We're not completely retarded here unlike Reddit.

>>52880672

>306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.

>>52880708

I was just linking your post because you had the card image for people to refer to in regards to the rule.

>>52871531
Kill yourself

>>52880556
Why do you care so much? I just play commander with a few buds, laugh anecdotally at the new sets, and pick up the occasional single that I need.

The problem with magic is that people keep bitching about it. Let casuals have their format, play whatever format you happen to like and shut out irrelevant white noise. Every casual who stumbles into a thread like this will wind up parroting nonsensical opinions of autists to try and sound cool/knowledgable around their casual friends.

For example, Eldritch Moon/SoI were moderately interesting sets with a few cool cards, and moderately interesting flavour. People bitched nonstop about Sylvan Advocate, Tireless Tracker, Emrakul and how it was a ripoff of bloodborne. In hindsight, at least they were trying to do something neat, and while the Emrakul thing was about as obvious as it could have possibly been, the set still has neat artwork, cool flavour, and a few hit-or-miss mechanics.

What do you really expect, Mirrodin 3.0: The Jacetice Ass Blastening?

>>52880677
This is true, but Standard isn't meant to be played by turbo autists and experienced players. While Wizards actively sabotaging other formats, and making Standard the marquee format says otherwise, the point in the first place was to have an isolated format where new players could interact with eachother and have fun, without dealing with my Ghave infinite combos on t3, or getting trainwrecked by some legacy reanimator deck.

Where things went downhill was when standard prices started to spike, then immediately plummet after a set's rotation. You can chalk this up to Wizards pushing the format too hard and attracting the wrong kind of people. Now? They're literally telling older players to fuck off to commander and let new players wallow in their baby format. It's the only way to purge the rampant price-gouging from standard, or at least force "competitive" players to buy a bunch of their garbage for alienating everyone else.

>>52880797
Except the problem is that the only format that currently ISN'T being shit up on some level by incompetent higher-ups is casual.

>dude why do you care that your hobby is becoming garbage and unrecognizable in a desperate bid to attract new players lmao it's almost like you're a human being with attachments kek

Fuck off.

>Now? They're literally telling older players to fuck off to commander and let new players wallow in their baby format.

Yeah m8, can't forget about all those new players hitting up the GPs and playing at the PT.

You're retarded.

I'm a bit of a Magic newb - does this mean that through to the next release there will be no bans in standard other than the 3 listed on site previously or in the case of an emergent ban?

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>>52879670
>People in standard is angry that a deck forces them to interact
>Waaah where is my interaction!!! Copycat so uninteractive!!!
???

>>52880872
>8
so you know the b& list?
these are added too it or shit is removed accordingly. So lets say you play legacy, top is now banned in that format in addition to all the other stuff on the normal ban list for that format.

>>52880797
>>but Standard isn't meant to be played by turbo autists and experienced players.
>Every pro level event and all major coverage is now purely Standard focused since Modern got the axe in the Pro Tour department

Really activates your almonds. You can't have it both ways, you can't have a format receiving all incentives for pros to break it and solve it as soon as possible and at the same time having the same format be an entry point/playground for the casuals. This shit does not compute.

>>52880905
What I'm asking basically - Are Gideon and Cat still in the format until the next set is released or is there going to be another banning after the PT or do they typically happen periodically when needed.

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>nobody cares about pauper
>especially not wizards
At least they will never fuck with it

>>52876827
Literally what the fuck am I reading

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KEKTROL MEMERS BTFO ETERNALLY

>>52881004
There's another banning after PT. They're almost definitely going to hit the cat but Wizard's been pretty retarded so who really knows.

>>52880797

I don't think anyone complained about Tireless Tracker. It's actually a well balanced card at 3/2 for cmc 3. If it was 3/3 it would be ridiculously strong.

Sylvan Advocate was a bitch because before there was no good instant speed answer for it. It dropped down later on in a game and became a 4/5 that now pumped up your Lumbering Falls(when it was played in Bant type lists) to huge numbers and you couldn't even hit the Sylvan Advocate with Grasp of Darkness at that point. Oh Grasp it if they drop it early? Sure ok but then they Grapple with the Past accelerating their Delirium count and grabbing it back.

Emrakul being the problem because there was literally two reliable targetted ways to kill Emrakul before they took over your turn and fucked over any sorcery speed answers you had in your hand and any Instant speed answers you had had to be another card type that wasn't Instant. Sinister Concoction was one and the other was Stasis Snare which were the two best answers you could play when an Emrakul hit the field after cast. If you weren't playing Black or White then you were in the wrong colours back then. Mind you right now there's more avenues to attack Emrakul(gravehate, Disallow, more Ob ring type things etc.)

>>52881004
Due to recent changed there are 2 dates to update the b& list, before and after the pro tour. They can still ban something but only after the pro tour is over.

>>52881024
Pauper will never be widespread until somebody (namely Wizards) lays down what the paper rules are and fucking reprint Oubliette.

>>52881004
There will be another Banlist update in 7 weeks.
The PT is in 5 weeks.

Do the math, if cat and vehicles dominate the PT and nothing from Egypt is good enough to beat them, then they have a good change to get the axe and Wizards got 2 weeks after the PT to decide

>>52881090
I don't see why they'd hit the Cat before Gideon. Isn't Mardu still the most played deck?

>>52881120
No, Cat has emerged to be better and the new set only cements that.

>>52881081
MAGIC: THE TAPPENING

WEW LAD

>>52880850
>(you)

>>52880949
Admittedly that's a mistake, placing all the focus on new product, but that being said, the issue is the Yugioh conundrum. Do you power creep until the game is unrecognizable, or do you scale things back with each new format? I think wizards is fine with ivory tower game design, and with the new standard, new players can feel good actually playing, while older players can back in their accumulates knowledge and objectively superior cards. I'd much rather that scenario, as opposed to inaccessible mechanics a la pendulum summoning and extra deck spam that ONLY reward new players.

>>52881120
Cat is more played and more popular, the only reason is not a single deck format is because of the banlist fear.

4c Cat got a + 60% winrate against everything in the format regardless of the techs used to defeat it.
Mardu in comparation got a sightly over 50% winrate against 4c Cat if you go first and got a solid opener, and only 50% or below against other decks (which is irrelevant anyway since nobody plays anything else) and basically less than 30% to win if Cat got a godhand or if you bricked. The match up is THAT bad.

Also 4c Cat costs around 100-150$ less to build than Mardu.
Basically the ONLY reason you would play Mardu instead of 4c cat is if you literally can't into "control/combo" because you're retarded, or if you have mardu cards and don't have 4c car cards.

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>>52871451
>>52871773
>>52881081

I've never understood the hatred of Control. The losses against Control decks can be brutal but when I think about those losses compared to losses against an Agro deck that had their optimal hand and steamrolled me by Turn 3 or 4 or losses a Combo deck that managed to get out their game winning combo before I had a chance to pressure them or disrupt their combo I can't help but feel the same way in all three scenarios: "There wasn't much I could do."

But then I think about how I could have played cards differently, maybe not over-extend, try baiting certain responses and I felt that of all those losses the ones against Control were the ones where I COULD have done more and/or better. Those Agro decks that obliterated me like I wasn't even there? I really didn't matter: just their opening hand did.

So I've just never understood the celebration of slowly purging the Control deck builds from Magic. You'll just see more of a different flavor of frustration.

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Why is Wizards even touching Legacy, let alone Vintage? Wizards doesn't have major tournaments for either so why introduce changes that leave people shit out of thousands of dollars?
This not even mentioning that Legacy is one of the few places where real control decks exist. Sure, they're not fun to play against, but they're fundamentally required to have any kind of decent metagame.

>>52881306
>So I've just never understood the celebration of slowly purging the Control deck builds from Magic. You'll just see more of a different flavor of frustration.

They're like Trump voters, they don't care if things are shit, only that it's a flavor of shit they like, and that the people who enjoy anything else are "BTFO KEKED."

It's exactly like the people who think "Modern is in a great spot." Its great to them, because they get to play the stuff they like and everyone else fucks off. They don't care about metagame health, attendance, or anything else besides what they like.

>>52881302
>Cat is more played and more popular

Top 8 has Cat at 33% and Mardu at 35% played in last 2 weeks.

>>52881401
You honestly expect Wizards to not make the stupidest possible decision at every venture?

This is a company who's greatest event expenditure is airline tickets and lodging for pro players because there is literally no other way they would show up to play if they didnt.

>>52881306
Yeah but at least you're losing the game quick and can either walk away or get to your SB. You're not sitting around waiting for the control guy to durdle around and every single match goes to time and you gotta piss really bad and then your next game is already starting by the time you get out of the shitter.

>>52881081
>makes the game more about interacting with the other player and making decisions rather than just jamming creatures and swinging
Great argument desu

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>>52881452

I guess I'm different that most as the matches I remember and enjoyed the most were Control mirror matches that often went to Turns or very close to it. The times when I rolled people over with some explosively fast Agro or Burn deck? I barely remember those. I went to the events to play Magic and I enjoyed that.

>>52881405

I guess so, it's just a shame because Magic is dying around where I live and I just see people cheering on the death of a core part of Magic's design since the beginning.

>>52881306
Miracles and other hard control decks are frustrating to play against because you can be locked out of the game, and just not have any outs. It's also a lot harder to keep track of card advantage, as opposed to life, for newer players.

I mean, according to some of my legacy groups at least, a lot of the problem is people not conceeding when the miracles player has a counterspell in hand, and then a 2 and 3 drop on top.
I don't think i've ever actually gone to time against miracles, but that may very well be bias, and new miracles players were absolutely the worst to play against.

I'm on DnT, so i'm a little sad that some of my worst matchups got a whole lot better, but I do play miracles and tron in pauper, so I at least understand how the game works from the seat of the control player.

>>52881664
>It's also a lot harder to keep track of card advantage, as opposed to life, for newer players.
Oh man, got to think about all those timmies and new players diving into Legacy, the second most expensive format behind Vintage.

>>52880755

The planeswalker damage redirection has always been an incredibly confusing rule, and the fact that you can't burn your own walkers is such an obscure interaction that it always trips people up when it comes up. WotC should instead have tried to find a wording for it that lets Lightning Bolt target Jace directly as if Jace was a player, even if that would probably have been equally inelegant.

And while we're on that topic, they should stop using the words "mana ability" because the newbies always think it means mana-costing ability, not mana-producing.

>>52881664

>Miracles and other hard control decks are frustrating to play against because you can be locked out of the game

But that was my point, though. Yes it sucks that a Control deck can completely claim the board state but an Agro deck can just as much have a perfect opening hand and draw into exactly what they need and end the game before you have a chance to do anything. How is that much different? You barely got to do anything in either scenario.

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>theres people
>on this thread
>RIGHT NOW
>that like "control" decks....
>decks where basically you deny your opponent the opportunity to interact and trade resources
>decks where all you do is negate stuff and all your turns are literally draw pass or PAY X MANA DO NOTHING while not letting their opponents do nothing either
>decks that constantly go over time
>decks that literally do nothing but draw and negate without thought or strategy, then your win condition is your opponent conceding to save up everyone's time
>decks that nobody has fun playing against

And these same people are retarded enough to critize wizards from culling that toxic play style from all their formats, AND instead they critize people that play honest decks like aggro or midrange where cards actually do shit, trade and you need to handle your resources and interact with your opponent board

Like common, this is not rocket science, we all know these vocal "control" players are nothing but smug fucks getting high off their "power trip fantasy" by playing counter spells and then saying LOL YOU DIDNT PLAY AROUND IT XDDD where you would had lost regardless of playing or not around stuff because they had another counter if you played other shit regardless.
Im glad Wizards steps up their game and is getting that shit out of here, I honestly believe those persons are mentally ill

>game based off magical lore
>you and your opponent are wizards
>both fight by summoning entire armies of stuff like dragons, knights, elves, etc
>whoever summoned the best stuff and used it better wins

Now.... in the head of "control" players this is how it should be....

>two wizards fighting
>one just basically just sits there and doesn't ley the other guy do nothing
>over 50 minutes and nothing happens
>honest wizards just gives up and leaves because this shit is not epic or fun at all
>"control" wizards masturbates afterwards thinking of how epic match of do sit there do nothing

Again, literally metally ill

So how many miracles chucklefugs are heading over to us stoneblade or use, ITS TIME FOR AND BOIS

>>52881306
As a Control player who knows Control players let me tell you why Control is disliked.

It has (almost) nothing to do with the mechanics as you've lined out.

It's about us. See, when you're a bad aggro player you just played a bad game of what is mechanically no different than limited. When you're a fucking bad control player you've wasted your opponent's time doing nothing meaningful, which is significantly worse than an aggro deck curving out and stomping your guts out in 3-4 turns. Incompetent control players just sit there and smear their fucking dicks over their opponent's face dragging the game along because they aren't good enough to finish the fucking job. They need assurances that they have complete dominance and end the game 10 fucking turns after they should have won if they knew what they were doing. And it's those people who fucking ruin it for other control players taking the maximum allotted time to play their goddamn deck or just ratcheting up their Planeswalker to ultimate-level when they could have just fucking won earlier but no, they needed to get the big Timmy win off an emblem for the super-lock.

It's not the deck archetype, it's shit people having no goddamn courtesy for the person sitting across from them. It's like combo, it's not unbearable if the person across from you has any fucking idea what they're doing.

In fact, that's the bottom line for Magic. Aside from Wizards ruining shit it's the fact that Wizards has done nothing to police the behavior in the community through discouraging shit-behavior. We've always been autistic shits but the moment you let other shit behavior like "investors" and sharks and prize incentives to fuel $500 decks you just added a layer of personality attributes that would poison ANY community to uselessness (and I've seen it before).

I meant uw or uwr sfm anybody? Fug

>>52881733
Planeswalker cards should never have been a thing in the first place.

>>52881832
Is this pasta? Never seen it before so it must be recent

>>52881861

You know, that's a pretty good assessment and I have to agree with it.

I currently play a silly Grixis Control deck in Standard because I want to be ready for the new Nicol Bolas card. I have a few decent wincons in the deck like Chandra, Flamecaller swinging in for 6 damage from turn 6 onward, Torrential Gearhulks recycling Unlicensed Disintegrations before punching them in the face the next turn for fatal and at times I've won just by slapping people with a few Wandering Fumaroles after everything else was exhausted.

Then I'd go over and see this guy in his late teens playing against a kid who was no older than 10 or 11 who was running a jank deck. He managed to get out Liliana, The Last Hope's emblem out and had a couple hundred zombies on the field... but was focusing on just shutting everything down everything the kid tried and laughing as he played a second emblem before he swung in for a couple thousand damage. And I've seen this sperg who plays basically a pure permission Control who would play a land, do a bunch of "HMMMMMMMMMM"s for half a minute before passing.

So I guess you have a point. I also apologize whenever I immediately snuff their top deck moment, so I try.

>>52880891
The problem is that there is no good interaction. You run red for shock or you lose.

>>52880891
Format was not designed for the combo, so there are barely any good answers.

>>52881904
I agree with this.

>>52881832
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/evincars-teachings/

>>52881733

>The planeswalker damage redirection has always been an incredibly confusing rule, and the fact that you can't burn your own walkers is such an obscure interaction that it always trips people up when it comes up.

What's confusing about it? Anytime you deal damage to target player that isn't non-combat damage you may have it dealt to planeswalker they control instead. The fact that you can't burn your own walkers is because the redirection ability is only when your opponent deals damage to YOU and they get to choose whether to redirect it or not. If you deal damage to yourself you just take damage, otherwise you can use Planeswalkers as personal life sponges.

>WotC should instead have tried to find a wording for it that lets Lightning Bolt target Jace directly as if Jace was a player, even if that would probably have been equally inelegant.

Rules wise they can't. Otherwise they would have to go through each and every single red damage spell that dealt damage to "creature and/or player" and errata the whole lot. This ruling allows to keep every card functionally intact but now lets them interact with a new permanent type. Nowadays you are starting to see more removal and burn spells that interact with Planeswalkers directly. They should definitely be printing more in sets but there's generally never enough.

>>52876548
Spot the miracles player

>>52877938
>Saheeli + Cat to Win
>Or two Cats to draw the game if you are about to lose

Why isn't this cat FUCKING BANNED already?

Reminder if you play any format other than commander you are literally retarded

>>52883679

>Wizards is fucking stupid
>It's one of their pet cards
>It's not Blue nor Red

I guess one of those three?

>>52874624
Or maybe a multicolor spell that lets you reduce the number of counters on target permanent by a number.

>>52883679
Cat is "may" so it will never draw the game

>>52875369
I don't even play blue in modern and I would like to see what the format looks like with TIME in it.

>>52883692
Reminder that if you play Magic you are literally retarded.

>>52884170
So you just "May" decide to flicker cats until time runs out and you go to turns?

>>52884277
No, that's delaying the game and a judge will force you to move on

>>52878122
I would play pauper if it had support at my lgs just because its cheap and why Not?

>>52884277
You're not allowed to do that. Go read the rules standard baby.

>>52879419
Revolt actually had the potential to be good but we only got 1 playable card out of it. I can't really disagree with you anon

>>52884504

You actually got at least 3.

Renegade Rallier
Narnam Renegade
Fatal Push

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>we fucked up and made an infinite combo that can end the game T4 in standard
>but we're not banning it, lol.
>but reflector mage was too oppressive to see play

>>52883679
They can't draw the game by infinitely chaining cats. The infinite loop must have a defined end state "I repeat this loop until I have a million life", etc. If they are chaining a loop for no reason you call a judge and give them a game loss for slow play.

>>52880373
I'm more annoyed that it doesn't hit people for activating enchantments.
I don't care that there aren't that many that do. That is the one kind of enchantment hate they allow red, they should fucking give it to it.
I can understand them not wanting to put planeswalker on there because of how utterly it hoses them. Whether that is a good or bad decision is up to one's personal preferences, but it IS a completely understandable reason. There is zero reason to not include enchantments on the burn train.

>>52884643
Fucking this. I got btfo by UW Flash regularly back in Kaladesh standard, and it was even because of Spell Queller + Reflector Mage, which my janky humans deck couldn't properly deal with. But holy hell did I not agree with the Reflector Mage banning. Yeah, it was unfun to have a tempo swing like that, but Reflector Mage didn't win games on its own, and you actually had to fucking think when playing UW Flash, instead of Saheeli combo, which wins because it's a very strong 4-color goodstuff that ALSO has an oppressive infinite combo.

Wizards has fucked standard so hard lately it isn't even funny.

>>52883692
I'm not a casual and every commander group near my is made up by "those people", you know the type.The conditions needed for enjoying EDH are too specific unlike a competitive format where you can play any motherfucker with any deck and get something from it.

>>52884643
but remember, guys, just have faith in Development

It might not be an official format but
>Protean hulk gets unbanned
>All available copies get bought out within an hour
>Foils are now going for almost 100 bucks a pop

What the fuck. I thought commander only made prices increase gradually since there's no actual "meta", what the hell is this?

>>52889741
speculators are a cancer to people that just want to play cards

No one would fault you for getting chinese proxies for edh

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>>52872430
>>52870832
I need to make a cat version of this, but it's still fairly accurate.

>>52881401
>Wizards doesn't have major tournaments for either

GP Las Vegas friend :3

>>52881832
If you honestly think control is all about negates and stopping everything possible, you're retarded. Playing control in modern is difficult as fuck, the meta is fast as fuck and usually too resilient for my interruptions to do much. My meta is fairly competitive and there aren't many brews so I know everything I'm playing against, but even so, knowing what to let resolve and what to path/push/bolt is tiresome. Experienced players will bait spells to exhaust my resources and allow themselves a slot to fight through, and many matchups are a game over for me (burn) while others become a game of attrition (GBx) and others where I'm heavily favored (Scapeshift/Titanshift variants)
Nobody near me ever complains about control, because it's an archetype that should exist.
When I was learning how to play, I was explained the basic Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic in metagames, and I've never seen differently. Aggro-Midrange-Control archetypes are invaluable, it allows everyone to get a taste of what they like and what they wish to do in a game.

If this is b8, you got me.

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>>52884643
>B-but what if amonkek makes a new top tier deck and we don't need to ban it
>They (implied) said in the blog post they would ban it if it did good! (no fucking clue what that means)
>stop using logic!
>/tg/ is bad at magic!

>>52874624
That exists. It's called Lightning Axe my Boros Reckoner.

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I pulled this at the weekend... currently in ebay for £180. Underpriced?

>>52895076
Dayium nice, I think the price will go up for collectors interested in it but I personally think the layout is too ugly to be played.

>>52895076
These cards look like bootlegs, those colors are awful.

>>52895076
IFORCE OF WILLI lol

>>52881832
>honest decks like aggro and midrange
>trading in mtg
>creatures the tappening isn't always just "let's clog the board and alpha strike"
>control is just draw go mono U mono counterspell .dec
>anime picture
>talking about mental illness

I honestly assume this is no bait.

There isn't much I can tell you but to lean back and rethink what you wrote. Take some time to answer yourself "What would MtG look like without any form of removal or control?". And no, you do not have the answer to this question already. No, you are not a social reject because you are better and more intelligent than everyone else. No, your genes are no excuse for your bad hygiene. And no, your status as a social reject is no excuse to excessively indulge in escapism via anime.

Rethink your life anon. It is not too late.

>>52884643

The more I think about how they're still fine with Copy Cat the more it hurts my brain. If it was an unintended combo that was as complicated as Eggs that slipped under the radar? Maybe I could give them a pass for not banning it despite the fact they've done bannings to shut down Eggs. But it's a damn two card combo that anybody with the basic understanding of Flicker and Planeswalker mechanics would notice.

Or hell, if any or the upcoming sets had a lot of answers/hate that could possibly combat it but instead we just got more answers/hate for decks that could compete with it.

Or even if it was just a very potent two card combo... but it's a damn infinite.

I'm not sure what they're hoping for the Pro Tour to discover but I don't see anything as potent as a Two Card Infinite Combo as early as turn 4 that is nestled comfortably in a 4 color Goodstuff deck.