Is he lawful good done right?

>>52869352

Nah he's lawful stupid

>killing the mad king was wrong because you stabbed him in the back

>>52869352
yes

>>52869352
Yes actually. He didn't understand the concept of betrayal and when it happened to him he was surprised even though he set himself up for it super hard. The fact that he was willing to blindly trust everyone and told Circei of all people to do the right thing and let Stannis take the throne highlights it. He didn't understand why she wouldnt leave or why Baelish crossed him. It just didn't occur to him it would happen.

>>52869561
To anyone who doesn't understand why Ned has a problem with what Jaime did, imagine a secret service agent shooting the president and sitting down in his chair in the Oval Office.
>But that president was gonna nuke Washington DC!
Yes, but Jaime didn't tell anybody about that. Just imagine what it must have looked like from Ned's point of view. Jaime was literally sitting on the Iron Throne, his sword still covered in king's blood.

>>52869843
To be fair, why would he expect Littlefinger to betray him? In the show he may be obviously evil, but everyone trusts him in the books. Jaime even thinks he should be made Hand of the King.

>>52869941
Jaime in the books doesn't really have a head for anything that isn't being a swordmaster

>>52869352

He's a decent example of a Lawful Good character written by someone who really doesn't like Lawful Good or settings where that's a good alignment to have.

Ned's a pretty good guy but he's like that player who rolled up a paladin and was expecting to have a fun adventure when his GM decided unexpectedly to run a much darker setting.

>>52870060
I'm gonna need to borrow this analogy anon.

>>52869941
>To be fair, why would he expect Littlefinger to betray him?
Petyr told him so himself.

>>52872801
Catelyn told him Littlefinger wouldn't hurt them. Would you rather trust your wife or the guy who told you not to trust him?

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>>52869561
Yeah why should he be annoyed at a man that made the kingsguard seem dishonourable.

>>52872866
If I'm not trusting the guy who told me not to trust him, then I do trust him to tell me how much of a bad idea it is to trust him, which would make me a hypocrite.
Does Ned strike you as a hypocrite?

>>52872866
To be fair it's left ambiguous so far wether LF actually coerced Joff into beheading Ned or if he decided to do so on his own. There's many signs which points towards the former with LF wanting to start a war, as well as opening up the door for him to get married to Cat, and at the same time cover up that he was a treacherous dick to Ned.

The signs against it are that Joff hasn't needed such coercion before. He told Sansa that her father was a traitor, and he decided to kill Bran all on his own (even if it was because he overheard Rob say that it would be the merciful thing to do), and he wanted to appear as tough in front of the crowd.

>>52869352
yes

>>52869913
Then he didn't tell anyone because?
Is he retarded, what did he think would happen, while you stopped him from murdering hundreds of thousands of people?
What a dick you are

>>52869561
Literally honour before reason, the man

>>52869561
>swore to protect the king
>kills the king
Anyone with a brain won't look at that cuck with good eyes. If he can't do his job, and if his sword swings around depending on his mood, it means he is quite literally a criminal and should be hanged.

>>52870060
>Ned's a pretty good guy but he's like that player who rolled up a paladin and was expecting to have a fun adventure when his GM decided unexpectedly to run a much darker setting.
Nice.

>>52874759
The question then becomes one of those annoying types. Is it better to betray an oath or, through adherence allow an atrocity?

honour cant bring back the dead anon

>>52874811
Ask the council what to do I guess. I dunno, there must be a way to dethrone a shit king.

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>>52874973
Civil war or House Blackfyre

>>52874811
It's almost like it's meant to be a difficult moral quandary without a simple answer.

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>>52869913
>>52872932
>>52874759
Okay, but doesn't anyone find it odd how he gets all upset that Jaime betrayed his oaths, when Ned was literally fighting a treasonous war against his king at the time?

>>52875147
Ned didn't swear to protect the king, fuckward.

>>52875147
>Treasonous
The king doesn't just get to do whatever the fuck he wants. And Aerys did exactly that - his son stole Ned's sister, and then murdered his father and brother. Aerys broke the feudal contract publicaly, and the rebels would have none of it.
Jaime was a special case, because he was sworn to protect the king (not to murder him), his father just turned traitor and sacked the city he was supposed to defend, and Jaime didn't even try to defend himself from Ned.

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>>52875147
No not really they both have different scenarios and point of views as the other anons have stated. From his point of view Jaime killed the king because he didn't want to protect the king or die defending him choosing the easy way out.

Can we all agree that Stannis Baratheon was a Dark Lord and What Brienne Tarth did was action of a true Paladin.

>>52876530
boring bait

>>52875147
I mean the last three king guardsmen fought to the bitter end in the tower of Joy.

>>52869352
He's lawful good done wrong. He was the Retard of Retards.

Ned - Lawful Good
Jon - Neutral Good
Arya - Chaotic Good

Davos - Lawful Neutral
Tyrion - True Neutral
Melisandre - Chaotic Neutral

Stannis - Lawful Evil
Daenerys - Neutral Evil
Cersei - Chaotic Evil

>>52869941
It's really true that people trusts him in the books. They just don't fear them since he is apparently powerless compared to everyone else.

>>52873113
Littlefinger literally stabbed Ned in the back. He betrayed him no matter if he wanted Ned dead or just out of scene in the Wall.

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>>52878265
Put someone else as neutral evil cersei and daenerys are the same in my book.

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>>52878265
>Stannis - Lawful Evil
Stannis is Lawful Neutral.

Stannis Baratheon is a dour and rigid man who believes in honor and duty above all else, causing him to have few friends. After a notorious smuggler brought his castle food relief during a siege, he knighted the man for his heroism, but had his fingertips chopped off as punishment for his past crimes, since "a good deed does not wash out the bad". He has a reputation in-story for being completely dedicated to justice and duty, the latter of which is the only reason he's making his bid for the Iron Throne, as it is required of him as the rightful heir.

>>52878866
>and yet he resorts to witchcraft/magic/dark rituals in order to further his goals
>even killing his daughter
>really anyone that had "royal" blood
>killing people for personal gain is neutral now
fuck off back to tumblr

>>52878866
>literally uses dark magic
>literally kills his daughter

His motivation was lawful, in the strictest, biblical sense, but his tactics were evil.

>>52878437
Littlefinger?

So is ASoIaF actually worth getting into or just a meme?

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>>52879081
I'm O.K with littlefinger.

>>52879144
The first 4 seasons are kino, the next two are okay. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded.

Also, reading the books is for LITERAL virgins.

Littlefinger will be king of the ashes, screencap this post

>>52879173
Hey look its /tv/
>>52879144
But yeah hes pretty much right first four series are alright which are books 1-3 which are alright. 4-5 are pretty slow paced and who the fuck knows how 6 will be or if seven will even be released.

>>52879173
>>52879213
I was referring to the books but alright, sometimes it's hard to see whether /tg/ dislikes something because it actually is shit or because it is something that normies happen to like so if you aren't being contrarian about it you have shit tastes.

>>52879229
Books are what I put in my post 1-3 books are good while 4-5 is just him slowly building up plot. The wait is such a bitch for his next books.

>>52879229

The books are pretty good. 1-3 are pretty great, and I thought 4 was pretty good. 5 sucked though.

>>52879229
I don't think that the books are bad because normies like them, I don't even think normies like them. I think they're bad because the show is a better adaptation of the story than the books are.

>>52874811
>honour cant bring back the dead anon
Only if you're doing it wrong.

>>52879360
This is just asking for me to shitpost the bad pussy meme.

At times yes the show does it better at other times, holy fuck what were they thinking.

>>52876793
But not inaccurate.

>>52879229
Subplots need to be their own separate books

>>52869561
>killing the mad king was wrong because you stabbed him in the back
because you swore to protect him*

>>52879229
I burnt out on the series by the third book. That said the if you like the idea of a really cynical take on high fantasy which is focused on the lives of powerful people it's absolutely worth giving it a shot.
Martin has a lot of weaknesses as a writer but I think he's really good at evoking the feel of political intrigue (even when the intrigue doesn't really make much sense under a microscope).

>>52878942
>>52879081
As far as D&D alignment goes, performing evil acts for good ends is neutral, so fuck off.

>>52879081
>>52878942
>literally kills his daughter
Only in show, so not canon yet. Book Stannis can't kill her even if he wanted as he is miles away from her. And aside from that he give disposition to his men, that in event of his death they should make her queen of 7 kingdoms. He does not sound as someone willing to kill his daughter. More likely his crazy wife will do it without his knowledge.
>literally uses dark magic
So what?
Magic is not necessarily evil in setting.
There are many practitioners from maesters to shadowbinders, faceless and red priests.
And what is worse:
Sending thousands of men into battle or killing one guy with shadow magic?

>>52879562
killing one guy with shadow magic.

>>52878942
>he thinks the fucking show is canon
LMAO

It's like talking about the elven bitch from the The Hobbit film. Grow up you cuckmaster.

>>52879144
Absolute trash don't bother. I feel like I wasted my time after finished it. The show I didn't even bother to finish it, just literally skipped 3 seasons until the last one because its so fucking bad its unwatchable.

At the end of the day, it's all about ice and fire, which is predictable, boring, and completely diminishes the reader's excitement.

>>52879766
>At the end of the day, it's all about ice and fire
is this a metaphor or something or are you talking about the whole story being about literal cold ice and hot fire?

>>52879844
The whole shitshow is about dragons facing the ice zombies. Snow mixing with white haired purple eyed diarreah inducing bitch.

Boooring. I thought Martin was going somewhere else when I started the series but now I realize it's going for a classical greek ending. I feel like I wasted my money on the books, and my time on the show(even if I skipped over half of it, if it wasn't for /tv/ I couldn't have endure it). Fuck this.

>>52879844
The ultimate fate of Westeros and probably the world will be determined by the war between the white walkers and the humans who have dragons. If you don't know what the white walkers are, they're murderous humanoids who wake up shortly before winter starts and try to eradicate all life with cold and brute force. Anyone they kill rises as a zombie, the zombies and walkers can only be killed by fire or something that effectively contains fire's essence.

>>52879964
>>52880028
This, it's literally ice zombies vs fire breathing dragons. At least that's what it's leading to.

>>52880142
This. So everything that happens doesn't really matter because the outcome is really determined.

>>52880028
Showfaggot detected. There is no such thing as "white walkers" or "walkers", they are called Others.

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>>52880142
>>52880028
>>52879964
It's pretty obvious thats what its leading to, although it is getting worse the more it drags on.

>>52879404
>bad pussy meme

And I could just as easily quote the Daenerys shitting scene from the books.

The highs of GOT beat the highs of ASOIAF any day

>>52880426
>tfw we didn't get the giant chain in blackwater

>>52869561
Ned's beef with Jaime was that he only chose a side at the last possible second. He had no idea about the wildfire stores and Jaime sensibly never told anyone, so from Ned's point of view Jaime just acted like an honorless dog who swears his loyalty until it no longer benefits him.

>>52880426
no way

>no zombie bears
>no ice spiders
>no chain of Constantinople in blackwater battle
GOT is absolute trash.

Ned was a decent LG character but the author loves to subvert tropes for no other reason than to subvert him. This is why Ned does after being set up as a protagonist, this is why Robb dies after being set up as a protagonist, this is why everyone betrays John and why the last time we see Daernarys she's shitting uncontrollable with everything she's accomplished undone.

>>52880588
>this is why Robb dies after being set up as a protagonist,
How the fuck was Robb set up as a protagonist? He's literally the only one of the Stark Brood to have 0 PoV chapter narration; everything that happens around him is told from Catelyn's point of view. If you didn't realize he never stood a chance, you weren't reading very carefully.

>>52880588
>why the last time we see Daernarys she's shitting uncontrollable with everything she's accomplished undone.
No way bro, that was one of the best scenes of the entire saga.

>when you spend 5 books building an army, and in the last chapter you lose it all
Top kek

>>52879144
>>52879229
It's not really worth getting into with the book series remaining unfinished. They're good books, but fuck the waiting for George R. R. Martin to either finish them or die. Books 4/5 are the roughest of the series since it's all build up for the climax, but the last book came out 6 years ago and no one knows when the final 2 will come out. Anyone thinking that there might end up being a lot of plot holes or just unsatisfactory parts since the author started the series in 1996 and it's still unfinished?

>>52880635
I think he's purposefully doing it to fuck with people.

Thing about it, several super long running "series" went unfinished by its author.

Wheel of Time
Tolkein had unpublished works
Etc

>>52879144
Books are great.

Show varies from good to great for the first 4 seasons, then it really starts to collapse but has a few good moments in 5 and 6. The deviation from the books eventually becomes unforgivable, the biggest change being that the apex villain of the books is a Nietzschean ubermensch with vast knowledge of the world and of dark magic, the show seems to be gearing him up to be a side villain who is simply a dull belligerent warmonger.

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>>52880744
I agree, basically Martin has no option but to stall.
Think about it, he's hit the Half Life 3 threshold, nothing he can possibly produce could be as good as the hype has made it out to be by this point. The reality simply cannot live up to it, so he has two options
>Release it, have it not be perfect and go down as a fucking hack, then spend the rest of his days hiding from Nerd hitmen who are enraged that he didn't close that plot hole/have their character win/do another shitting scene/ect ect
>Stall until he dies of natural causes and be known as the writers of The Greatest Tragically Unfinished Fantasy Series EVRAR, then spend the rest of the century getting sucked off postmortem.
Which'd you pick?

>>52880618
Robb was set up as a protagonist by being the son of tbe martyred good guy who fell in love with a woman of unsuitable station for him and married her over practical considerations of state.
Ned chose honor over pragmatism, a heroic trait. Ned died
Robb chose feelings over pragmatism, a heroic trait, Robb dies.
Daernarys chose charity over pragmatism, a heroic trait, insert diahorea quote
Pragmatists last longer. Idealism of any kind eventually gets them killed.

If you want to go into show territory, Stannis' idealism about the law and duty gets him killed.

John's idealism about the wildlings gets him murdered (but he gets better because it was also a pragmatic consideration)

The series will end with Sansa and Littlefinger married as king and queen. And then Sansa will poison little finger starting it all again.

>>52880635
The show will be the canon ending anyway, he doesn't need to finish the books anymore. He backed himself into a corner.

>>52880833
>Robb was set up as a protagonist by being the son of the martyred good guy
That was John S(mith).

>Ned chose honor over pragmatism, a heroic trait. Ned died
So did John S(mith).

>Robb chose feelings over pragmatism
And so he died.

>Stannis' idealism about the law and duty gets him killed.
While in the book, his lawfulness is what keep him and his army alive.

>The series will end with Sansa and Littlefinger
HAHAHAHA

Worthless characters with no value to the overall actual plot.

>>52880833
>Robb was set up as a protagonist by being the son of tbe martyred good guy who fell in love with a woman of unsuitable station for him and married her over practical considerations of state.
None of that sets him up as a protagonist. You might want to look up what a "protagonist" is. Alternatively, you might want to just stick your head even further up your ass, since it's quite clear that you can't read even the basic kind of literature that is ASOIF. Robb was never a protagonist, BECAUSE ROBB GOT NO FOCUS YOU STUPID SHITHEAD.

>>52880833
Robb had no chapters you idiot. He couldn't possibly be a protagonist when he isn't part of the story focus. All we learned about Robb was from Catelyn chapters and from the Lannisters chapters. Otherwise Robb would be a literally who to everyone, it's like claiming Rickon is a protagonist. He doesn't have his own chapters.

>>52878356
That's what I said.

>>52880824
>Which'd you pick?
Release.
Just to witness impotent autistic rage among disappointed ultra fans

>>52880824
Honestly? Release, I want to see it end as the author envisioned it. But, you are most likely right about how things will pan out.

Who /aegon/ here

>>52881376
>raises paw

>>52872866
As a Baelish, trust the man who says he's a scoundrel to be a scoundrel. He counts on you disbelieving him, but hopes for otherwise.

>>52879170
This is a good image

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>>52880824
He only has himself to blame for his current predicament.

>>52879641
Empirically wrong.

>>52880819
Who

>>52882072
Patchface, the Cthulhu preacher. He is the final boss.

Not him by the way, but everyone that has read the books knows about it.

>>52880833
I'd love that end.

>>52872801
On top of his wife saying he was trustworthy, I think Ned probably saw that as a kind of exaggeration.

I can't describe it any better, but I just get the feeling that Ned didn't really see the weight of what Baelish was actually saying and only saw it as a casual day-to-day warning.

>>52882118
Haven't read the books due to shenanigans. Thanks.

>>52882072
Euron Greyjoy

by the beginning of book 7, Euron:
>possesses the only suit of valyrian steel armor in the world
>possesses a horn the valyrians used to enslave dragons, sent with victarion to meereen to steal one
>only living man known to have traveled deep into valyria
>is a warg and possibly a greenseer
>has consumed enough shade of the evening to be nearly clairvoyant
>has a faceless man working for him
>has the entire Greyjoy fleet and the Redwyne fleet approaching the same location for his blood sacrifice
>sacrificing a large number of brainwashed priests and warlocks from around the world who have been forcefed shade of the evening to see his true form
>foreseen as an eldritch abomination or godslayer in visions from multiple characters (aeron, patchface, melisandre, daenarys, etc)
>likely going to sack Oldtown, where Sam happens to be carrying the horn of joramun which might be capable of destroying the wall
>also where the hightowers have been locked away in their tower casting spells for years
>also the world's greatest storage of information, although Asshai likely has more magical information

TV Euron just makes dick jokes

>>52882252
book 6 I mean

>>52882072
Euron Greyjoy.

>>52882252
Show!Euron was a major disappointment. I couldn't believe it, when they fucked up Kingsmoot, one of the best chapters in the series.

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>>52882320

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>>52882334
>mfw those are actual lines from the show

>>52879229
The books are good if you get really invested in the world or like long, slow, albeit well-written stretches of pointless exposition and descriptions of useless shit. GRRM is much better at creating a world than he is at actually writing a decent story. Interestingly, I'd say his short stories set in the world are by far much better.

>>52882252
But in the books every single Greyjoy except Theon were awfully written.

>>52882985
>He doesn't like Victarion chapters
What's your excuse?

>>52883060
Not the anon you replied to, but I honestly think that the Dusky Woman and that one Red Priest they find are the only redeeming parts of that whole sailing arc.

>>52883060
Victarion chapters are amazing in how terribly written they are. They seem like they were originally thought up by a ten year old, and GRRM thought they were a great idea, so he slapped them into his book and threw his shitty prose on top.

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>>52882334
I cannot fucking believe this was approved. That line was actually written, and re-read by editors many times before being kept in the final script. And not one person spoke out? Is this supposed to be funny? This is meme tier writing.

>>52883115
You think he stopped caring

>>52874973
Yeah, literally the way it happened. A rebellion followed by an execution. A monarch's right to rule isn't drawn from consent of the governed, nor is it dependent upon his being a good ruler. He rules because he has the proper blood for it, and if he does a shit job his followers will murder him and replace him with someone else, Caligula style baby.

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>>52878942
>back to tumblr
>puts show canon on the same level as book canon

>>52880563
It's almost as if it's cheaper to write some crazy idea on paper than it is to show it on screen.

>>52878942
>"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

>>52885875
It is but looking at GoT's budget, they have it easier than most.

I always felt movie boromir came off a little more NG, but he's definitely LG in the books.

>>52885875
With TWD having a Giant fucking tiger, that doesn't look uncanny valley, I hardly think Otherworldly Demonic forces and Zombie bears are out of the question for an HBO show that is nearly as or more popular.

>>52885948
That's not Boromir.

>>52878942
>go back to tumblr
>says the showfag

Even /tv/fags laugh at that.

>>52885957
Reminder that none shall ever top the Governor.

Reminder that Brian Blake may still be alive in the show.

>>52880588
It's not even that. GRRM literally has no clue what he's doing. He's like the reverse Robert Jordan, who autistically overplans everything, even in a meta sense. Something like Jordan literally wrote the ending of all his 13 books first and knew more or less how he was going to get there and what was going to happen along the way before he started.

GRRM on the other hand, said once in an interview that when he started the first book he didn't intend to kill any of the POV characters, or introduce new ones aside from what he had. Next thing you know he's written himself into a corner where he's got no choice but to kill Ned. He had no clue when he started his first book that he was going to be killing his main character at the end of the same book. This is not a guy who has any actual plans for what he's doing. He's just writing and then putting out his own fires as he goes.

Which is why he'll never finish the series. He has no idea what the ending will be, how to get there, and is hoping that dying tragically before it's finished will keep people interested and engaged by his series far longer than they would if he simply finished it with some kind of halfbaked ending. Tolkein once said they should never make a movie out of his books, because he felt like cinema would never be able to do them justice. GRRM let them make a show of his books while he was only halfway through his series, and it's now overtaken him. He doesn't care about his story, only being famous for it, and in a sense the show misdirects from how mediocre he is, and now trying to find out how to end it so the masses don't lose their shit is HBO's problem not his.

>>52885990
Reminder that I really don't care, I'm just along for the ride.

>>52885957
Oh I'm sure it's possible, but sometimes you gotta make cuts. I'm not trying to suck GOT's dick on this, but there's a lot of shit from any book that will be cut to save time, money or just because why bother if it isn't necessary. Think of how many characters get merged together into one character so they only have to pay one actor, and the audience only needs to keep track of the one line.

>>52886012
Judging by how badly D&D screw up before they overtook the books, I'm betting GRRM could do better than them still.

>>52886048
I honestly think they could have done better with a lot of the shit in the books, they had the money available they just preferred to use it for star power rather than quality animations.

>>52886079
Oh absolutely true. But don't forget we're watching an R rated soap opera, not an action show, or even an actual fantasy. Incest, betrayals, people coming back from the dead, court intrigue, hell get a few people amnesia and it would need to star Joey Tribiani. With that mindset star power, costumes and makeup is far more important than special effects and action.

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>>52886012
>Tolkein once said they should never make a movie out of his books, because he felt like cinema would never be able to do them justice
I'm not going to argue he was wrong, but LotR did a lot better than most books ever manage.

>>52886012
Horhe taking his RR after Tolkien instinctively makes me hate him

>>52886129
Don't disagree that he probably never expected cinema to be able to do what those movies did, but I'm more interested in how he viewed his own works compared to someone like Martin. Tolkein didn't want someone screwing it up because he loved it so much and was so invested in it. Martin just wants a paycheck and his face on TV. Now I'm not saying that he's a monster for that, I get this is a job, but he's basically writing pulp so he can make money, and a lot of people act as if he's this great artist with all sorts of grand ideas and unshakeable integrity.

>>52886116
Which is why I stopped watching after mid season 3, hell half the reason i watched was to see Emilia Clarke's titties.

>>52886175
>a lot of people act as if he's this great artist with all sorts of grand ideas and unshakeable integrity
Normies don't read yet the series being books first seems to add a sense of legitimacy to them

The idea this is basically a R-rated soap opera for an audience that thinks itself above soap operas is the correct way to view this, I think

>>52886194
I watched someone stream it and it just bounced off me.

>>52886209
Haha, yeah, I tried to keep interest after season 2 kept fucking up, and I couldn't even make it to the Red Wedding, honestly. The only parts I cared for aside from Dany's, were Ned's and Jon's, because their interactions were more interesting because they were so honorable in such a shitsack world, whereas the entirety of the books interested me, even if some of the characters were annoying in the extreme, Sansa for example.

>>52886315
>Sansa
Didn't they try to turn her into some feminist hero?

She was probably the most annoying character I've ever seen since the Widow in Deadwood.

>>52869352

He's the practical difference between paladins and vanilla knights demonstrated: the knight gets to keep his powers and abilities if he bends the rules, which can be very useful in times such as these.

>>52886332
Not. In. The. Books.

>>52886332
Wasn't Sansa literally romantic idealist meets the real world? Her dashing prince is a dickwad who killed her father and as far as she knows her whole family is dead because of that dickwipe. Shes literally there to have her worldview shattered.

>>52886490
Yeah, and while she does grow out of it, somewhat, in the books, to the point that she recognizes that littlefinger is using her, she is not the feminist power fantasy she is in the show.

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>>52885932
"I need twenty good men"

>>52886490
The thing about Sansa is that she, like others, grows. As of post-SoS & including the WoW preview chapters, she's learning plenty under Littlefinger's wing. She was always an observant one, now she's growing to be Littlefinger 2.0.

>>52886822
Considering the number of people she has seen killed up to that point, she is very much so in a learn or die situation. Especially after what Littlefinger pulled in book 5

>>52878866
>a good deed does not wash out the bad"
Oh god. That fucking onion allegory that appeared everyfuckingwhere.

>Durrrr I think I'm a little bit rotten and fresh at the same time
>Hurr durr, an onion that's rotten on one side is not half-fresh, it is rotten durrr
>Uhhhhhr, are we certain? What if the core is still fresh?
>Oh no, this onion I was about to eat is rotten on one side!
>Durrr, better cut it off and eat the part that's fresh

It doesn't mean anything! It's nonsense! Complete fucking nonsense!

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>>52887457
>morality is Absolute.

>>52887484
Martin doesn't say either or. The statement about Sam eating the fresh part of the onion could be taken as Mel being wrong, and the good in people still being good regardless of what bad they've done. But then again, he also had to cut off the rotten half, so how is that supposed to relate to people?

The answer is that it doesn't. It only relates to onions.

>>52887540

God, I bet you fucking think Dijkstra is a villain.

>>52887593
What little I played of Witcher 3 made it very clear that he's not.

>>52869352
>any GoT character
>"done right"

I shouldn't think so.

>>52886490

Sansa is the flip side of the coin to Arya. Sansa wanted to be treated like an ideal noble woman like in the stories, and Arya chaffed against and rejected that image, wanting the life of a boy and an adventurer. They both got exactly what they wanted and came to realize that the life that they yearned for is actually shit because the society that they live in is shit and even the people they perceived as having everything routinely suffer horribly.

Sansa journey also reflects Arya's in that she gains a form of power as a way to fight back against the horrors her wished-for life is visiting on her, but where Arya gains outer power via violence, Sansa gained inner strength, the ability to endure anything, show compassion even help others find hope. When she led the ladies in the Red Keep in prayer while Cercei was drunkenly talking about their immanent gang-rapes, it flew in the face of Cercei's entire reason d'eitre, that being that the only way a woman can be safe is to have power, and the only way to have power as a woman is via control.

I'm actually going to be really let down if Sansa ends the story as just another manipulative controlling politician. As Arya has gone down darker and darker roads in pursuit of revenge and the hope of taking control of her life, Sansa has consistently risen above the horrors and endured instead of falling back on violence, manipulation or betrayal to keep herself safe, and its made me root for her more and more while I've grown more and more worried for where Arya is going to end up. If she just ends up wielding "soft power," the way Arya wields a sword and bludgeons her way to a better life with it, I feel like her whole arc will have been a waste of time.

>>52887593
I was thinking that he walks a fine line between Anti-hero and villain.

>>52887730

He's not really either, which was kind of my point.

>people actually think ol fat george and his FAT PINK MAST writing is good

lol

>>52887758
Well, the witcher never really makes things cut and dry, which was oddly refreshing among video games, for me, at least.

>>52887803
What are you referring to? I read all five of ASoIaF, and do not remember such a line anywhere in it.

>>52869913
Yeah, but if you were busting into the oval office to kill the president anyway, and found him dead, why would you care?
>"Yeah but Ned dislikes him because he was sworn to protect the king"
Yeah, and Ned was supposed to serve the king, and yet he lead a rebellion.
At best he's angry over semantics, and at worst, just dislikes him cus Jamie is arrogant and wants a reason.

>>52888309
Because Jamie swore an oath, that's all there is to it. If Ned had known WHY Jamie turned on the king he might have seen it another way. Jamie is still an idiot for not telling anyone until Brienne, but Ned's not wrong for condemning him based on what he knew.

>>52888309

Robert DIDN'T care, that's why he married Cersei and the fucking Lannisters are still one of the most powerful families on the continent even though they backed the Mad King until the last possible second and bought their place in Robert's court with the deaths of innocent babies.

Ned walked into a room and saw that a Lannister had taken a shit on the sacred oaths of the Kingsguard and had sat upon the Throne of the Realm with a king's blood still wet on his blade. Ned declared his rebellion openly, he fought by the rules of war and within the code of honor and chivalry, and he had just cause for his actions by ancient laws and rights going back to the earliest days of Westeros. From Ned's POV, Jaime killed a helpless old man by betraying the old man's trust and a sacred oath because his side was about to lose, sat in a sacred place he had no right to sit in with a profaned blade in his hand, and was rewarded for switching sides before he lost.

His hatred for Jaime was not semantic, petulant or rationalized. He had good reasons. The fact that he doesn't have all the information because Jaime didn't deign to share it with him for personal reasons which were entirely understandable and sympathetic (even if they are childish and stupid and arrogant as well) is why the situation is tragic.

>>52882334
Fuck hell, it's like if Flashheart from Blackadder had a stroke

>>52887593
I dunno, the algorithm is still massively bloated and overcomplicated for such a simple task.

Even with all these arguments about which character was in the right and when that was, we can all agree that Joffrey was the biggest cunt, right?

>>52888665
Oh he was definitely a right little cunt, but I'd nominate Cersei, because she not just evil she's also an incredibly arrogant idiot.

Obligatory:
>Tyrion reflected on the men who had been Hand before him, who had proved no match for his sister's wiles. _How could they be? Men like that... too honest to live, too noble to shit, Cersei devours such fools every morning before she breaks her fast. The only way to defeat my sister is to play her own game, and that was something the Lords Stark and Arryn would never do._

>>52888665
>Joffrey
>Biggest cunt
Even in the books, Ramsay did more evil shit than Joffrey ever did, and Euron is about to overtake Ramsay.

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>>52887668
This. Sansa is one of my favourite characters in the books, because she's like little Ned. She can't swing a sword like him or command armies, but there's a great inner strength in her. She's compassionate and kind, even towards the people who don't deserve it, and she doesn't break even despite being in some very shitty situations. If I was married to Joffrey, I would probably fucking kill myself.
And they absolutely ruined her character in the show. She's powerless there, except for the rare moments where she gains agency - and she uses it to feed a man to the dogs or to threaten people.

>>52888879
I can't think of any agency Sansa showed in the books except maybe convincing Joffrey not to kill Dontos.

>>52888846
Yeah but ramsay only comes into his own in AFFC and ADWD, and 99% of people stop reading the series in AFFC

>>52888915
Not the point. No agency > bad agency.

>>52879381
ask Stannis
oh wait
you can't

>>52879173
Littlefinger has never really failed and his plan goes from the 1st book/season
No shit he's going to win or die horribly

>>52879641
spotted the paladin

>>52888915
It's not even a discussion of how much agency she has in the books, let's just look at the show.

>Sansa cooking up an escape plan with Dontos is cut from the show
Sure, it turned out later that it's been Littlefinger's plot, but she gets points for trying. This is not in the show - Sansa is simply led away.
>Sansa is married to another psycho rapist, and she gets raped repeatedly.
>Sansa enters a rivalry over Ramsay (?!) with another psycho.
Women being catty to each other in the show is a running trend, by the way, even if it's directly opposite to ther relationship in the books. See Arya and Waif.
>Sansa denies Littlefinger's help, only to beg for it two episodes later.
>Sansa needs help from Podrick, of all people, to
>Sansa begs for Jon's forgiveness. For what? They never interacted in the entire show.
>Sansa yells at Jon for no reason, later admits she doesn't know what he's talking about.
>Sansa decides that it's time to display what a feminist hero she is, and feeds a man to his own dogs while she watches.

It's really obvious that there are characters D&D like (Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Renly, Arya) and the ones they don't (Stannis, Sansa, Melisandre). I could go on and on about their faux-feminism that's actually very fucking sexist, but I won't unless prompted.

>>52882252
>Euron's Greyjoy, known as a Crow's Eye
>has a special Crow's Eye he hides
>in show he has both eyes
what

>>52889119
>No dragonbinder
>No shade of the evening
>No warging
>No creepy ship run by mutes
>No godslaying
>No blood magic rituals to sacrifice Iron Fleet and summon a kraken
JUST

>>52889134
Euron was literally the only good part in the latter books and they just removed everything good about him in show

Maybe they didn't want him to be a zoophile or something

>>52889112
i prompt ye out of curiosity

>>52878265
I think that almost none of these perfectly apply, and Game of Thrones is a perfect example of why alignments are stupid if you care about three dimensional characters.

>>52880824
I think option one here is basically what happened to George Lucas

>>52887593
I hope if we *ever* get a sequel that his legs being broken twice by geralt is canon.

>>52889535
What? But the prequels weren't even on par with the original trilogy.

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>>52880635
>Anyone thinking that there might end up being a lot of plot holes or just unsatisfactory parts since the author started the series in 1996 and it's still unfinished?
Is he gonna get hit by a van

>>52889751
Did you not read option 1? He's talking about all the nerd hate for lucas because hes a hack.

>>52889778
I know, but the example was that it just wouldn't be perfect and thus not live up to the hype, not that it would be a total piece of shit.

>>52869352
Yes
And he gets what lawful good characters usually get if the DM doesn't go out of their way to "make the good guys win".

This brings me to why the first part of ASOIaF is stellar in comparison with what comes later. I had the sense that no one was trully safe, good guys don't necessarily win and the story is not as obvious as usual. But then everything went back to standard good guys who do good things win and bad guys who do bad things lose.

>>52889915

the problem is that the story is all about how moronic decisions can come back to bite you.

people in ASOIaF don't die because of some bullshit moral war, they die because they fuck up with stupid mistakes

>>52879144
I'm following it just to see how Martin tries to resolve the convoluted mess of a plot I also hope that show and book plotlines differ. Season 6 was shit. It gets worse with every book/season in my opinion, but it's not bad enough for me to drop it. Yet.

>>52878942
>>52879081
lol, showfags are retarded

>>52879641
who was a traitor and usurper

>>52869352
Good - Isn't Selfish [ + ]
Lawful - Respects Order [ + ]
Now my lawful description might be vague, so let me explain in more detail. He respects laws of his ancestors, their traditions and does his duties all the time, dodging none. For me that is lawful, he lives by the code of his ancestors.

>>52889915
>>52889957|
>Assuming GRRM is honest about killing people off for making stupid, in character decisions.
>LookatArya.jpg
Come on, if Gurm was fair, she'd be dead like 5 times over. I'm pretty sure he even said somewhere that because his wife liked the character, he's never going to kill her off.

>>52879641
More than one. Also, kinslaying is bad, m'kay?

>>52891245
Usurping is the greatest crime, more than cannibalistic crastering

>>52891188
She comes pretty close, to be fair most people don't want to kill kids and arya is what like 10 in the beginning of the story?

I don't know why I even care at this point desu I just want to see the story end.
Dunk and egg stories by George are better than Game of thrones anyway

>>52888879
>Sansa
>compassionate
>treats Tyrion like dogshit

Yeah, no. Fuck Sansa. I can't wait for her to die.

And just to be clear, I'm talking about book Sansa. I stopped caring about the show ages ago.

>>52889915
It's actually different. The message is that bad guys suffer consequences too. Initially they should how the backstabbers win over the loyal but they also show how said backstabbing screw them over long term.

>>52889174
>Wyman Manderly

>>52892589
>Treats Tyrion like shit
Things that never happened.

>>52875274
He was a direct vassal of the king, he certainly took some kind of oath.

But the kingsguard oath is obviously a whole other level of solemn in the setting. Reasonable people recognise that in the real world rebellions happen and treaties sometimes get broken.

>>52892589
>>52892912
For the crime of not being excited about forced marriage to an old ugly dude, this bitch deserves incredible death.

>>52893033
Also, book Tyrion isn't exactly Peter Dinklage, he's extremely repulsive

>>52893251
And his family murdered her father, her mother, her brother and (as far as she knows) her sister. And now they want this ugly dwarf to make babies with her, so they can steal her ancestral home.

>>52889734
uhhhh anon Djikstras dead, serves him right for trying to doublecross Thaler and Roche

>>52869561

From Ned's perspective Jaime backstab the Mad King in the back the moment it was clear the Crown had lost the war. Without knowing about the wildfire, it seems like a case of backstabbing his way into the graces of the winning side.

Otherwise you could question why he didn't turn on the King sooner and stop the war?

>>52883115
Victarion is a little retarded so it makes sense.

>>52893602
How dare you

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>>52894423
>implying

>>52893441
Thats only one path though did CDPR state this?

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>>52893602
>a little
Thats an understatement
>"I WILL SAIL THE DOTHRAKI SEA"
>Nigga its a metaphorical sea because its grass

>>52894948
Could you blame him? How often you hear a plain called "a sea" in geography? Killing a man who mocked him for this mistake was a dick move, though.

>>52893602
Victarion may be a retard, but he's a loveable retard.

>>52895067
Yeah I can because he was too stupid to pay attention to his maester like the rest of his retarded brothers (except maybe euron). I know theres other examples of him being dumb too I can't remember at the top of my head.

>According to George R. R. Martin, Victarion is "dumb as a stump"[6] and "a dullard and a brute

>>52893033

All the Starks deserve death. The series would be better off without them.

>>52887825
That's when Sam shags Craster's daughter in the swan boat.

>>52895851
Why was that important

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>>52878942
>showfags

>>52880588
>this is why everyone betrays John
Jon deserves everything that happens to him.

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>>52880426
>Daenerys shitting scene

I...what?

>>52897037
He's using it to make fun of the sex writing, which critics like to latch onto.

>>52897280
It makes sense in context, but the book detractors love to bring it up anyway.

>>52893024
No his father took an oath, but was executed. Ned became lord before he swore himself to the king.

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Name a better baker

>>52886012
GRRM has said that he knows how he wants the overarching plot to play out. He knows how the game ends; he just doesn't know which minor pieces make it to the end of the game. They live and die according to what would make the overarching plot most reasonable.

>>52897445
The Rat Cook.

>>52869352
>Killed in the first act because all the main characters are sick of his incessant moralizing
Yeah sounds about right.

>>52878866
I think that Stannis should be chaotic good. Alignments don't always perfectly fit, but Stannis was a person who truly wanted to protect the realm and be a good king, and he would do everything in his power to uphold the family line.

>>52897525
If he didn't care about the law he would have let Renly become king. The only thing that can possibly make him chaotic good is if Melisandre convinced him that he must become king by any means possible in order to be Azor Ahai and save everybody from the great darkness.

>>52897379
I'm a little afraid to ask, but what's the context?

>>52897643
Not him, but she contracts dysentary, or some sort of similar disease, and keeps shitting by a river she's camped nearby. It's something of a metaphor for her previous battery of stupid decisions, ones that make sense at the time, but due to her incredible ignorance (like how crapping in your water supply is going to make you sicker), she winds up fucking herself over enormously.

>>52897643
Danny rides er dragon for the first time, it ditches her in a desert, she gets food poisoning and spends days shitting herself in a desert while the dragon eats nearby children, both of which GURM describes vividly.

>>52897703
>>52897725
I thought it'd be something weird/gross, but glad to see it's just normal dysentery and stupidity. Thanks for answering my question, dudes.

>>52897643
>>52897280
/tv/ and /lit/ like to bring it up there's also the pink mast mentioned earlier in the thread.
It's from book five which is easily the worst.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmKhGqWcJGY

>>52879844
The entire story is based on the Robert Frost poem "Ice and Fire"

>>52882252
Dragonbinder binds slaves, not dragons. It makes people follow you

>>52897888
More like Jon Snow is literally born of both Ice and Fire as he is both Stark and Targaryen. The story is a song, and it's a song about him.

>>52899309
And he was born amidst a storm, is Jon the prince that was promised?

>>52879173
Arya will probably assassinate him for betraying her father and starting this whole mess.

>>52879484
Using D&D alignment system, killing a innocent little girl is evil, it doesn't matter that you're saving the entire universe by doing it.

>>52899386
>And he was born amidst a storm
Yes, if the storm is the war that started because his mom absconded with Rhaegar

>>52899539
>killing a innocent little girl
never happened, showfag

>>52898059
Preston, leave.

>>52899576
Yeah I never got why people blame Rhaegar, Lyanna wanted some Targaryen dick and Ned knew it, why he didn't tell Robert that his sister fucking hated him I will never know.

>>52899683
Robert was a little delusional when it came to his future wife as you can see when he comes to Winterfell. Also, I'm prett sure all Targs are bananas, you just can't easily tell with some of them

>>52899683
>and Ned knew it
Did he now?

>>52899743
After the tower he certainly did. Not so sure about before

>>52899771
"After the tower" was way too late.

>>52899791
True that. I was responding to the question in general

>>52899724
Well from all indications Rhaegar was Sane, but yeah Robert was delusional, Ned should have been king then maybe things would have turned out better.
>>52899743
Yeah, I think he did, it's unlikely in the extreme that she would have made Ned keep her baby boy alive and safe if she were a victim of rape, at least in my opinion. if you're talking before he found her in the tower, maybe, maybe not? in any case, it doesn't matter, Robert would have gone to war over it regardless of what Lyanna wanted, and Ned had no choice if he wanted justice for his father and brother..

>>52878265
>Arya - Chaotic Good

Jamie is Chaotic Good.

>>52900212
He may be on the road there, but he's still quite a True Neutral in my opinion.

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>mfw Stannis lands the Iron Throne and beats back all threats, ensuring his reign for decades to come

>>52900543
He's going to die in the books and is dead in the show.

>>52900372
>Jaime
>Neutral
At every point in the books he is chaotic, unless you look exclusively at flash back.

>>52901459
"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

>>52901459
>Mad King begins plan to blow up the bastion of civilization
>Torn between his loyalty to his station and the people
>He accepted the burden of the most heinous of crimes to safeguard the people
>Kills the King and all involved in the plot to burn down the city with magical fire
>Keeps his silence
>Suffers

How is this not a Paladin?

>>52901622
Well, he threw a little kid out a tower, intending to kill him. If he was ever a paladin to begin with, which I doubt (you're not allowed to associate with evil beings, and House Lannister is chock full of them), he fell then.

I scanned posts for a long time looking for a way to work super ordinant beings into this thread before I realized that's not Boromir.

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>>52875147
Had Jaime killed the Mad King in single combat, Ned wouldn't have much of a problem with it. It was the dishonorable way of doing it and the whole keeping the throne warm thing that got to him.

Ned also carries a few resentments with him, he probably killed many loyal knights that were only doing their duty, including Ser Arthur Dayne, not only killed but also killed in a dishonorable way, and most of these things are kept secret, boiling inside him.

Having a knight of the Kingsguard play such a dishonorable part on the conflict, coupled with his own dishonors, made worse after he got to the Tower of Joy, probably did not sit well with Ned.

He is Lawful/Good, alright, but he was not perfect. That's why I agree that he is Lawful/Good done right. Pic related is the opposite.

>>52902084
>Ned wouldn't have much of a problem with it. It was the dishonorable way of doing it and the whole keeping the throne warm thing that got to him.

So he saved the city and sat in the chair, he has no problem with the murder, rape and infanticide of the Mountain.

Or more dishonorable than fighting a war against the king with the intention of killing him.

No, Ned was Neutral Good at best. Jealousy is harsh.

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>>52880833
>The series will end with Sansa and Littlefinger married as king and queen. And then Sansa will poison little finger starting it all again.
The fact that this sounds like it could happen upsets me greatly. But it would be a nice ending.

Also, Brienne of Tarth is an anomaly, she should be dead since day one, she is actively trying be a paladin in a setting were it is certain way to get yourself killed.

>>52902127
>he saved the city
Literally no one knows about that

>he has no problem with the murder, rape and infanticide of the Mountain
That's one of the reasons he hates Lannisters to begin with

>than fighting a war against the king with the intention of killing him
It's 1) a war of revenge 2) against the king who broke feudal agreement in the most crazy way possible

>>52879562
>And aside from that he give disposition to his men, that in event of his death they should make her queen of 7 kingdoms.
Shireen Baratheon, the Stone Queen.
Shit, I kinda wish that would happen.

>>52902084
>Had Jaime killed the Mad King in single combat
The Mad King's idea of single combat is roasting someone over an open flame. In real single combat, Jaime would have gutted Aerys all the same.

>>52902229
Honorable people can survive as long as they don't play the game of thrones. They're no more or less likely to die than any knight who doesn't break.

>>52888352
Ned wouldn't even give him a chance. That oath of the kingsguard was practically sacred to him. Like fuck he's gonna listen to a traitor.

>>52903212
>Honorable people can survive as long as they don't play the game of thrones.

No they can't, honorable people get killed. To put it a different way, rigid people can not survive. If you cling firmly to any rigid belief you will fall.

>>52903555
>No they can't, honorable people get killed.
Ser Bonifer the Good is still alive, as are Randyll Tarly, Balon Swann, Tytos Blackwood, Ser Barristan, Brynden Tully, Hotah, Elder Brother, and the kindly man, all of whom have their own uncompromising principles.

All you need to do to survive is to back a winning horse or else be very good at what you do.

>>52903684
>All you need to do to survive is to back a winning horse

No, you need to be quick and smart enough to change to whichever horse is leading. There is no winning horse, just the race.

>>52888430
Bless this post.
I was having trouble articulating my thoughts and so didn't post, but you nailed it.

>>52874759
>>52879475
Swearing to protect him doesn't mean shit, the Praetorian Guard of any ruler not only serves the ruler, but the realm as well. If the leader is about to do something so retarded that he needs to be taken out for the good of the people, then he needs to be stabbed in the back/shot in Dallas.

This is why alignment systems are stupid, because only drooling mongoloids like Stark follow them. People by instinct are consequentialists, not deontological.

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>>52904440
He's right. If Ned Stark was more like Sharpe and could fire 3 knights a minute, he would be king by the end of the week.

>Pic related, Ned during the war

>>52869352
That's a funny way to spell STANNIS BARETHEON

>>52904928
Stannis is lawful to a fault but he's hardly good or evil

>king has been cucked
>king's children are not legitimate
>queen plots to murder the king to cover up this fact
>declines to tell the king to protect the queen and her children
Ned Stark was neither lawful nor good.

>>52899309
Jon Snow is LITERALLY half stark, half dayne.

Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
>>52899386
>believing prophecy
>>52899649
Why would the valyrians have a horn to control dragons when they can ride and tame dragons anyway? They had a mighty slave empire and it's hard to keep slaves in line with just dragons but you'd end up killing a lot of slaves. It makes sense that the horn pacifies people and makes them follow orders.

Plus euron used it at the kingsmoot and then everyone voted for him in a surprise twist

>>52905095
>Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna
that does not make sense whatsoever

>>52905116
We don't know the exact date of her birth and we know that she has been lied to about things from her past, she was told she lived in braavos but she remembers a lemon tree, braavos does not have lemon trees.

When the small council tries to have Dany assassinated Ned is very angry and quits as hand, why would ned do this for a small child on the other side of the world? Killing dany could save tens of thousands as it would prevent a dothraki invasion. He did this because he promised Lyanna he would protect her daughter, her daughter is Dany.

Ned is shown to hardly think about Jon, and he hasn't thought about Rhaegar in years. How could you not think about Rhaegar in years if you are raising his bastard son in your castle? You could not think about Rhaegar in years if his child is hidden away safe in essos.

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>>52904928
>>52904969

Lawful Neutral, good and evil are irrelevant what matters is the rule of law, evil must be punished and good must be rewarded.

He would make a good King.

>>52905058
>Your sister getting pregnant means you got cucked
>Keeping a political hostage from birth means you got cucked
People really need to remind themselves what cuck means.

>>52879173

>reading books is for virgins
>playing with and posting on a board made for DnD and toy soldiers is for real alpha males ONLY

>>52905197
Ned isn't king m8. Bobby B was the one who got cucked.

>>52905156
>Ned is shown to hardly think about Jon
When Ned's in the black cells, he agrees to join the Night's Watch to be with Jon. I think there's even a line about him wanting to tell Jon something.
Meanwhile, it's made pretty explicit in the Tower of Joy flashback that Ned was with Lyanna when she gave birth and that she died in childbirth. How would Ned have transported the infant Dany to Sir Willem Darry at Dragonstone? It was about to be besieged by Stannis's forces.
The chronology and geography do not fit that narrative at all.
Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar because Jon looked like a Stark I guess and Ned was used to having him around. He probably reminded him of Lyanna more than anything. Where does it even say he hadn't thought of Rhaegar? He talks about Rhaegar with Robert in one of the first chapters.

>>52905058
Cersei was horrible, but Robert was really no better.

>>52905159
I tend to think that evil is omnipresent enough in Westeros to taint most of its inhabitants, but Stannis is a hypocritical asshole.

>>52905274
He also probably agreed to join the night's watch to not be executed, seeing Jon is just a bonus.
Ned did not transfer Dany, Dany was taken by Ashara Dayne, who faked her own suicide and took Dany to essos. Ashara Dayne was also the mother of Jon, and Brandon Stark the father, Ned and Ashara swapped babies and went their seperate ways.
Still not thinking about Rhaegar despite raising his child is really weird.
"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not"

Here's a video series that explains it a little better than I'm doing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc&list=PLCsx_OFEYH6un7-8efHOg-UL5WdQ9gLSN

>>52905322
I know Robert was a dick, but letting your king get assassinated is not a lawful thing to do.

>>52905357
Being complicit in the slaughter of the entire royal family probably isn't either, so I doubt this would be the breaking point.

>>52905347
Viserys was 8 when Dany was born. He clearly would have known if Dany was not actually his sister. He blamed her for not being old enough to marry Rhaegar. He wouldn't have said shit like that if she was his daughter. Even Targaryens didn't fuck their daughters. Viserys was mad, but not daughter-fucking mad.
And that still doesn't explain how Dany would have met up with Viserys and Darry.
There'd also be no reason whatsoever to hide Jon's parentage from him in this case.

>>52901557
Precisely, so he stops giving a fuck. In flashbacks he hadn't gotten to that point, but every current time period in the books he is full blown chaotic, although his good-evil scale differs greatly.

>>52905387
War is hell. It's not pretty, but preventing a future war by getting rid of the old heirs is not necessarily an unlawful act. Letting Robert get killed was treason. Treason is unlawful.

>>52905058
What are you on about?
Ned chose mercy for the woman and children, good.
Ned also chose to uphold the law and righteousness, and both would soon have told Robert, AND did tell EVERYONE when he died. Lawful.

>>52905433
Eh, law doesn't matter one way or another, in a setting with laws as bad as Westeros'.

>>52905463
Right before he died, Ned lied about Joffery being legitimate, even though he knew that Joffery was illegitimate and the Lannisters were evil. He selfishly did this to benefit himself and his daughters. At best, Ned is true neutral.

>>52905534
I think that protecting one's family allows one to avoid the "selfishness" accusation.

>>52905534
Didn't he want to avoid civil war tearing the realm apart again, which surely would have happened if he pitted the throne against the richest, most powerful house?

>>52905534
No single act, especially born of desperation and despair, defines alignment. The man was Lawful to the core, and even to save the lives of his family he could barely say what he said.

>>52875147
The king was literally calling for his head over nothing. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would meekly submit to that if they know they can fight back.

>>52905618
He was sworn to House Baratheon, accepting a Lannister bastard as king is treason.
>>52905631
It was not merely a single act. Ned selfishly allowed Robert to be murdered so he could protect Cersei and her children.

>>52902084
He goes to the tower of joy after king's landing is sacked and the war basically ends (I think it was even after Stannis takes Dragonstone which was a LONG time after the sacking cause they needed to create a fleet first for that)
So all those honorable king's guard knights were still alive when he runs into jaime

>>52905692
>Ned selfishly allowed Robert to be murdered so he could protect Cersei and her children
What? He had 0 inclination that Cersei was anything but a selfish, but weak, woman. She was a non-threat in his eyes. That's like saying you, personally, allow every murder that occurs everywhere, because you didn't stop them.

>>52905389
Viserys also said they lived in Braavos, but they couldn't have. How could he have known if she was not his sister? He's 8, they aren't very smart at 8 and she grew up looking a lot like him.
>There'd also be no reason whatsoever to hide Jon's parentage from him in this case.
Jon, if he was known by all to be the legitimate child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne would be the heir to winterfell and starfall (in dorne)
The Daynes would want to keep their house and Catelyn and her children would want winterfell. It's unfair of Ned but it makes everyone a lot happier if he says Jon is his own bastard then if he tells people the truth.

>>52905716
>hey Ned it's me Littlefinger. Cersei killed your father figure, tried to kill your son, and is gonna kill your bff.
Yeah, he had zero idea that it was going to happen.

>>52905788
Except he never did that and even if he did, Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn, Lysa did, nor did she attempt killing his son, that was Jamie and then their first son, Cersei had nothing to do with it, and finally not even Littlefinger knew the bitch had poisoned Robert's drink so the boar would kill him, so nice trolling but go the fuck away.

>>52869352
ned isn't lawful good. he's moral weary.

>>52901747
Like the kid!

>>52901747
>you're not allowed to associate with evil beings
3.PF, please go

>>52901747
He fell and now he is trying to atone and regain his honor (and paladin status)

>>52905721
Not who you replied to, but how is it believable that Visery wouldn't know his own sibiling at age 8, but Dany vividly remembers a lemon tree out of nowhere? Wouldn't Dany be younger, and thus more likely to mistake the lemon tree for something else?

>>52886129
CARBOT A CUTE
CUTE!

Does anyone else think that R+L = J is extremely cliche?

>>52911352
Even if it is, it was very well done and very well hidden so i'm not sure if you're criticizing or just pointing it out.

>>52911535
In the show was obvious as fuck, though.

>>52869352
Much as I like Eddard, he was definitely leaning toward lawful stupid.
>Hey-a Cersei, I'm just here to tell you that I'm on to the whole incest thing that you've got going on, just a friendly warning. You might want to give up your cushy lifestyle as queen before your hubby finds out.
>Is surprised when this goes badly

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>>52911786
Man fuck the show for not showing Sansa being part of the problem. She's so Naiive that she runs to Cersei (because she wants to stay with Joffrey) and tells them they are about to leave soon. Forcing Cersei to go into maximum coninving bitch mode.

>>52911784
Oh well the show sucks compared to the books, lol, but thats always the case.

>>52911352
because it's a fake out

R+L = D
B+A = J
>>52910988
Part of the Dany story is that she misremembers a lot of her past and has been lied to a lot. Quiathe tells her she has to go back.

>>52915830
The timeline literally disqualifies your theory and just in case you're an ever bigger idiot, Stark genes are Dominant, Targaryen Recessive, if Dany were Lyanna's daughter she would look like a Stark not a Targaryen.

>>52916146
Where is this official and confirmed timeline?

Keep in mind the author lies to the readers, why do you expect he will tell the truth here.

>Stark genes are Dominant
Proof? Targ genes so strong Aegon turned out white despite being born to a brown salty dornish woman

>>52916207
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events
This is extrapolated from specific dates and times as laid out in the books and supplementary materials.
Brandon was dead LONG before Jon was conceived, and Dany was born a year after the Tower of Joy happened. R+L=D is literally impossible, and since Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he is the proof that stark genes are dominant. Sorry you're wrong. George didn't lie this time, no other person could be Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, it is Jon, no matter what you might think.

>>52916414
>Brandon was dead LONG before Jon was conceived
Says who? Jon's birthdate is not known, only roughly. Ned could've passed Jon off as a few months, maybe even a year younger than he was.

If you believe the official story apparently they somehow smuggled an 8 year old, a newborn and a boat full of loyal men out of an island under siege from the entire royal fleet. Not to mention it makes no sense that Rhaella could've been pregnant. Aerys died over 9 months before she "gave birth" and he had sent them away from King's landing a while before he died.

>>52916606
George R.R. Martin says so, did you even read the timeline?!
Jon's birth year is 283 same as Robb. Dany'[s 284 as provided by MULTIPLE sources throughout the novels, the tower of joy happened in 283 Daenerys is not Lyanna's child she is Rhaella's and Aerys' child.

The official story is correct, they escaped during a storm, have you ever been on a sailboat, or hell any boat during a storm? you can't see shit even two feet in front of you! how would stannis or any of his captains see them?

No, he died after he had impregnated Rhaella, Daenerys was born nine months after his death she was just born the next year, less than nine months later. go somewhere else with your illogical bullshit gotten from a complete moron on youtube.

>>52917162
aren't all sources on dany's birth + flight from dragonstone provided in-universe by dany herself

>>52917361
I already told you, no, and you'd know the sources if you had actually read the books. Since it seems that you haven't, do as I said and go away, I tire of explaining this to you.

>>52907332
Carlooooos

>>52917460
>no, and you'd know the sources if you had actually read the books
I have.

>do as I said and go away
Are we giving each other advice now? Hang yourself.

>>52917785
No you haven't, I refuse to believe someone who has the ability to read could be as stupid as you seem to be. Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, period, Word of God, and evidence from the fucking text prove you wrong, this is one of the big reasons why youtube should be destroyed. As for hanging myself, no.

>>52917860
>No you haven't.
And you molest little boys.

>Word of God, and evidence from the fucking text prove you wrong.
The Words of God states that you were seen molesting little children in your backyard last week.

>As for hanging myself, no.
Pedophiles (and people who repeat shit while providing no evidence) deserve death.

>>52917981
You're just a fucking troll, then, as I provided plenty of evidence taken directly from the text, and from GRRM's mouth. and thanks for defaulting the argument to me, personal attacks = instant debate loss. Go back under the bridge.

>>52918048
>provided plenty of evidence taken directly from the text
You claimed this, but did not provide any.

>from GRRM's mouth
You claimed this, but did not provide any.

>nd thanks for defaulting the argument to me, personal attacks = instant debate loss.
You were the first person to make a personal attack. The irony is rich. Child rapist.

>>52918080
I said you seemed to be stupid, not that you were in fact, stupid. What I said there is not a personal attack, it's simply a metaphor. I also might add that you first made a claim, the burden of proof, in this case, is not on me to prove you wrong, it's on you to prove yourself right and you failed.

>>52918173
>I said you seemed to be stupid, not that you were in fact, stupid.
You are a passive-aggressive weasel and a shit-eater if you don't think this constitutes an insult. Don't hide behind pointless technicalities. It's as vapid as evasion an claiming that fucking little children is culturally acceptable in some places, so accusing you of fucking a whimpering boy up the ass right now isn't "really an insult."

>is not on me to prove you wrong, it's on you to prove yourself right and you failed.
I am not claiming that the theory is true. I am claiming that you have not proved it false. Without either, all you have left is "it has not been conclusively proved who Daenery's mother is."

>>52918255
It isn't or it would bother me.

If you aren't the one who claimed it was true here >>52915830,
who the fuck are you and why are you posting?

>>52918299
>It isn't or it would bother me.
It doesn't bother you because you're a delusional simpering shit-eater who has decided the rules of debate work in such a way that you can throw all the insults you like without losing the debate.

* It's perfectly okay to eat shit. You don't have to hide it. We're all open-minded people here. That wasn't an insult either.

>who the fuck are you
Anonymous.

>why are you posting?
Because I'm interested in having you show the firsthand sources about the Flight of Dragonstone.

>>52918173
>You seem like you were dropped on the head as a child. Are you sure your parents weren't related?
>Fuck off, cuntrag.
>Wow, how dare you insult me like that? You lose the debate!

>>52918345
No, it doesn't because it's not true, and no, you see, in a debate the technicalities are rules, and the rules are on my side here.

Then I have no reason to argue with and in fact never was arguing with you, since you aren't the idiot who posted the crackpot theory based on 0 evidence from the text, Firsthand source is Viserys, and all the loyal retainers who spread the word of her birth and it's circumstances, after their mother died.

At any rate, I'm done here, you know it's a bullshit theory as much as I do, and that it falls apart as soon as you look at the text, and apply logic to it Rhaella is Danyt's mother, she could have a different father than Aerys but it's not Rhaegar he was nowhere near the capital and in fact dead when Dany was stated by GRRM to have been conceived.

>>52918507
>in a debate the technicalities are rules, and the rules are on my side here.
There are no rules. You are in a conversation on the internet. Robert's Rules of Debate do not apply. What you are actually doing is playing an idiotic point-scoring game where you try to figure out as many ways to cleverly imply and insinuate that you are talking to a retard, but if the opponent rises to your bait you get to decalre victory. Cuntrag.

>Firsthand source is Viserys, and all the loyal retainers who spread the word of her birth and it's circumstances, after their mother died.
This is known in a court of law as "hearsay."0

>At any rate, I'm done here, you know it's a bullshit theory as much as I do.
I can't hear you over the sound of the whimpering child you're fucking up the ass. You'll have to repeat your unsourced claims a couple dozen more times.

>>52905322
>I tend to think that evil is omnipresent enough in Westeros to taint most of its inhabitants

I suspect you are a fan of Daenerys Targaryen and her rule.

>>52905357
>letting your king get assassinated is not a lawful thing to do.

>Inform him that his is not the rightful claim to make for the Throne
>Give him several chances to withdraw his offer and be named his heir until the birth of a son
>Meet him one final time
>Tell him he will be dead in 24 hours if he does not rescind his claim
>He refuses, make jokes
>Kills him with no loss of life
>Spare a brutal, bloody battle
>Goes on to save many more tens of thousands of lives

Stannis is the mannis, long live the king.