Essays on mind and matter

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>>52866129
Learn to overcome the fragility of your skull

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>>52866612
Why u no cybernetic society!?

>>52866129
>>52866612
Why can't there be something between those two or combining their virtues? I love the whole "learn to surpass your limits" part of Hive, but I fucking hate the fact it's engineered as a state to suck hard and keep people low. Meanwhile Drones are all fine and dandy "everyone profits", but they completely lack the awesome overcoming aspect.

And so I always end up stuck with Gaians as the best faction, despite them lacking any of those two aspects, but making it up by not sucking.
>Inb4 feeding to mindworms
Don't care

>>52868137
What your describing is what the Spartans should have been, individualistic militant exceptionalism

Unfortunately Spartans and Faith's Believers just didn't get characterized well in the game

>>52866720
You are redundant

>>52868182
>What your describing is what the Spartans should have been, individualistic militant exceptionalism
>Missing the point this hard

Also
>Individualistic
>Militant
What gave you impression I want that?

>>52868182
They are perfectly characterised: a bunch of military nutjobs and a bunch of fundamentalistic nutjobs. Couldn't be any better.

Or this is some thinly veiled /pol/ right from the morning?

>>52866720
Aki, I appreciate your gift of Information Networks but let's remain friends, okay?

>>52868224
Both factions are more nuanced than that. Remember on planet everyone is a nutjob
>>52868213
You were describing it. Society centered around exceptionalism, personal development, but without being a rigged game like hive

>>52868137
>tfw everytime I play Gaians I end up spamming boreholes, polluting like there's no tomorow and taming all the mindworms and boils that come. Then I send them over my enemies.
>Can't play straight nature loving hippies.

>>52866129
Yang was a hypocrite, he speaks of sacrifice for the greater whole then sets himself at the top of the pyramid. He stacks the deck so that not only does he stay in charge, it's impossible for anyone to ever grow. His ego is so titanic he can't even allow for the possibility of being surpassed, despite how talented and brilliant he is

Pravin Lal did literally nothing wrong, save for his taste in architecture.

>>52868258
Oh, so you are not just missing the point - you are simply retarded.
I want a collectivistic, commune-based faction that BOTH takes care for all members AND operates on the principle of bending your own will over the problem and self-improvement.
And you are handling me bunch of gung-ho "guns for everyone" idiots as a solution. Reading comprehension much?

And not the other anon, but there is zero nuance in Believers. They are made of the edgiest traits imaginable and still stands out in a game made from political carricatures. In fact, they could be only worse if they were combined with Spartans' gung-ho attitude.

>>52868279
>Not planting forests
>Bothering with boreholes
Seriously, nigga?

And let me guess - you don't know how to gain free "clean" minerals, don't you?

>>52868280
>Yang was a hypocrite
I don't think he is a hypocrite as much as he doesn't give a single fact about other people. His writings are exercises in self-reflection which outer universe (as everything outside inner universe which is Yang) can witness and appreciate.

>>52868291
>Implying anyone ever claimed Lal did anything wrong
/pol/ autistic screetching doesn't count, so why are you defending a guy from non-existing attacks?

>>52868291
He didn't let his cloned wives kill him

>>52868314
Because nobody will mention him otherwise, he's boring as fuck.

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>>52868279
>2017
>He still doesn't know how to handle eco-damage

>>52868309
>a single fact
*a single fuck obviously

>>52868182
>individualistic militant exceptionalism
>modern military

Pls.

>>52868279
So you don't build Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests? Don't plant trees? Or construct Centauri Preserve, while playing as fucking Gaians?

>>52868279
Not sure what version of the game are you using, but most of them are bugged with really nasty bug.
There is a bunch of eco facilities and secret projects that WON'T FUCKING WORK, unless you experience a fungal bloom caused by eco-damage before building first of those.

So to make the game work as intended, you need to force a fungal bloom BEFORE you build any of those:
Tree Farm, Hybrid Forest, Centauri Preserve and Temple of the Planet; or finish building Pholus Mutagen secret project.

Each of those facilities (aside the secret project) gives +1 free minerals FACTIONWIDE. So assuming you are not shit at base management, each base of yours provides AT LEAST +2 free minerals, as all of them have Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest.
I've once managed to have a base producing well over 200 minerals/turn with zero eco-damage. Six boreholes, two build on mineral deposit, entire area covered in forest and fuckload of satelites, plus all the non-sucking facilities adding bonus to minerals.

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>>52866129
whoo! I just dumped 25 bucks into my GOG wallet and I'm on a spending frenzy!

PREPARE FOR MAXIMUM COMFY!!!

>>52868597
psst, hey kid!
https://www.gog.com

>>52868137
>Why can't there be something between those two or combining their virtues?
Because they belong at the extremes which are mutually exclusive.

>>52868299
Daily reminder that Miriam's concerns over the societal implications of the tech tree were completely justified.

We must dissent.

>>52868306
>>52868325
It's not about not knowing how, its about not *wanting* to control eco damage and letting the planet to spawn free units for you.

>>52868661
lol...
yeah... i played 'em that way too

>>52868672
I mean fuck, if hippies have such a huge problem with industry we should put them in charge of running the industry and meeting production quotas/making a profit.

>>52868650
This. There is nothing 'edgy' about the Believers so I don't know what game that anon has been playing. Miriam is the only one who asks 'should we' instead of 'could we'. She's the voice of reason in a world blinded by hubris.

>>52868137
>>52868213
>>52868258
I think it's important to remember that Santiago was the one behind the Cloning Vats. You know, the one about turning people into cogs in a machine. She be crazy, yo.

As for Yang, I think he does believe what he preaches, he just doesn't give a fuck about anyone but himself. He has bottomless EMPATHY, but zero SYMPATHY.

That said, I think his general musings on nihilism and self-improvement hold a lot of weight as a personal philosophy. It's just that his eusocial model is completely batshit.

>>52868291
Lal was the greatest humanitarian of the bunch, but by god is he dull. Just listen to his description of the Rec Commons of the Peacekeepers.

Which is why I generally like Morgan the best. By god, he aced that Charisma score...

>>52868682
>Its like, lol, okay little girl
>You can have my magic hardhat
>You are now in responsible for the lives and careers of over 10,000 people
>10,000 people are depending on you with their livelyhoods
>Good luck!

>>52868695
I'm not like Yang.
I feel shitty when I do immoral things.

>>52868626
Not him, but explain us all how the fuck you can't combine following things:
Egalitarian utopia
Self-improvement

Because apparently there must be some special, secret magical reason why this is impossible and sadly it only exists in your head

>>52868694
"It was never the streets that were evil" is easily her best monologue. It shows that she is more than just a fundie luddite. She doesn't blame technology itself, but the societal changes they bring.

Now if only her AI wasn't completely dumbfuck....

>>52868694
>Using 3 thousand years old scriptures created by late Bronze Age shephards as a basis of solving problems
>Voice of reason

And before someone says something about "lel, fedoratipping atheists" - I happen to be believing and practicing Catholic. And Miriam still fucking sucks as delusional theocrate.

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>>52868189
*Autistic binary*

>>52868250
Why u no cybernetic? U cyber nao. Iz better.

>>52866129
No way fag

>>52868721
Same anon as We Must Dissent here.

Her religious scripture stuff is bullcrap. But she also shows that she "gets" people and society. Her technological woes are based on a fear of the authoritarian nightmare it brings, not on it being UNNATURAL GAY LIBERAL ATHEIST

>>52868710
If you self improve to become superior to your peers, the egalitarian society becomes impossible. They are mutually exclusive concepts.

>>52868708
Not the anon you are replying to, but that's the deal - Yang doesn't give crap about this or that set of morality. It doesn't matter if you are using religion, sociological reasons, survivalism or any form of agenda to justify your means or goals. Because in all his nihilism, he's also the only leader to openly declare that all that matters is efficiency. Nothing else. Looking for justification is just pointless waste of time and trying to play some stupid "moral card", rather than doing what should be done. And if then those morals drag you down into picking less efficient choices - you've crippled yourself.

If anything, it's Yang's total lack of ANY morals that makes him stands out. The ultimate goal-oriented thinking.

>>52868710
I don't really see what your problem is. Just play as Domai and get all that Eudamonia jazz while also researching things like Ascetic Virtues. You get a paradise while also promoting Yang ideas for the individual.

>>52868745
Here is a plot twist, you mongoloid. EVERYONE improves.
>B-but you can't!
You also can't have ultimate egalitarian utopia. But you can strife to achieve one.

>>52868721
Philosophy doesn't have best by date. It doesn't suddenly turn untrue just because it's old. Miriam asks what being a human means, and that is not edgy.

>>52868752
But Domai, or rather his faction, is entirely about "yeah, sure, we will change the world around ourselves to get better, why should we change?". Eudamonia is all about this as a concept - you are happy, because the world around you allows you to be happy and not because you've learned to be happy regardless

>>52868748
Not the anon you are replying to, but well said. Yang's point is that there is no universal law or formula for morality or happiness. It's all about perception.

In his view, you can live the crappiest life imaginable, but you can consciously self-delude yourself into feeling good about it. And if you do that, then that's great. You use less resources while still feeling happy. You have reached the most utilitarian outcome.

>>52868756
So you agree with my point that I the mongoloid and you cannot coexist in an egalitarian society, hmm?

>>52868766
Then play as Yang and strive to promote individual happiness. Again, I don't see the problem here.

>>52868762
>Using religious scripture as a basis of your society isn't bad
Miriam asks to ignore everything and just follow believes, blindly. Because if you are not sharing HER vision, then you are not worth even being called a human and don't deserve that compassion of hers.
I mean it's not a rocket science to realise anyone running fundie group is by default bad.

Let me ask you this - would you be ok with all the same crap as Miriam does if she was instead Miriam Abdullah, using Koran instead of Bible? Or if she was Miriam Goldberg, running with Tora? Because what I've noticed over the years is a MASSIVE projection of people based solely on the fact she's white and Christian.

>>52868710
>Not him, but explain us all how the fuck you can't combine following things:
>Egalitarian utopia
>Self-improvement
Simple. You can't take them to the extremes like both factions do. Hive exists solely for self-improvement of ONE person, Yang. Not so extreme but still uneven self-improvement leads inevitably to formation of elites which following trend of self-improvement focus on securing resources and opportunities for themselves (to improve themselves further) and hamper it for others. Egalitarian society on other hand limits the height of self-improvement but spreads it evenly. Society you have depends on the balance (or inbalance in this example) between these goals.

>>52868772
No, because you are trying now to bend your own arguments. Also, your logic loops aren't even funny.

>>52868790
The original anon (but not the one you are replying to) and here is a riddle
Which part of word "utopia" you don't understand?

>>52868789
Her faith is a source of strength for her, it doesn't matter what she believes in.

>>52868806
'U'

>>52868801
I'm too stupid to understand your argument, what chance do I have for self improvement in your egalitarian society? You'll leave me behind with certainty - unless you choose to retard yourself, of course...

>>52868768
I don't think it's about self-delusion. Delusion implicates that you are lying to yourself. And the point of Yang and what he does himself is instead to just ignore the bad parts or the hardship. You don't say to yourself "Oh, it's great that I'm living in an overcrowded bunker". You just don't think about it at all, thus the problem cease to exists.

Granted, it takes a massive mental exercise, but Hive has big advantage over everyone - Yang makes sure the new generations entering the system get this mindset incorporated from the moment they are born. It's like that rogue AI from old Polish short story - "With each generation, there will be less and less opposition, because more and more people will consider the current state of affairs as normal and desirable"
Callous, but efficient.

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>>52868833
The only reply you are going to get

>>52868811
>it doesn't matter what she believes in
What kind of dumb logic is that? I guess, being devout satanist and sacrficing people would be okay too as long as it brings her strength.

>>52868811
Are you retarded on purpose? It's what this anon >>52868865 said. It makes a FUCK HUGE difference.
Just compare Believers with Cult. The only real difference is the religion they adhere to.

And it changes EVERYTHING about them

>>52868851
...you're incapable of defending your point even to a self professed moron?

>>52868886
What I admire about Miriam is her humane philosophy. It doesn't matter to me personally whether it stems from Christianity or Islam, as that anon insinuated.

>>52868721
> 3000 Year old bronze age scriptures
>Practicing Catholic

The Holy word of god would not have an expiration date, except you keep fucking it up papist.

>>52868911
Are you Protestant or just American?

>>52868721
>the word of God, the basis of the christian faith has an expiration date
Francis please leave.

I find it interesting that the "end goals" of each ideology seem to antiquated even in the game.

The Believers for one but even Spartan survival aspect seem so irrelevent when you have nano fabbers and can change the sea level.

What would a modern "good" alpha centauri game look like?

>>52868956
That's because Santiago be crazy. Her only idea is a military and nothing else. And not just a cool, individualist military either. Mass cloning of indoctrinated cyborgs is her deal.

>>52868956
Identical, except Lal's "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master," is even more poignant, and the Free Drones and Data Angels are made into a single new faction, and that faction is full of dribbling anarchist retards.

>>52868956
>What would a modern "good" alpha centauri game look like?
Like the original, just remastered.

You cannot fix something that is perfect. Like the new Planescape:Torment: just fix some bugs and redo the graphics.

>>52868956
>What would a modern "good" alpha centauri game look like?
It would be considered so offensive its developer's buildings would be burned down, designers executed by screeching SJW crowd, their relatives and house pets sterilizied.

>>52868930
Atheist, actually.

>>52869005
American?

>>52869010
Nordic, but I fail to see how that's relevant?

>>52869017
I've seen this weird inclusive mentality in countries where sects weren't historically persecuted or were tolerated for centuries namely protestant countries.

>>52868956
Sparta suffers from planet not being threatening enough.
Because of this their philosophy of having a society entirely centered on survivalism and being ready to make war doesn't feel like it's coming from a place of authentic need in the early game (unless they start next to yang or miriam).
Miriam is very Christian fundamentalist flavored in the game, which feels off given the extremely multinational nature of the mission and the fact that most factions are based on philosophies rather than ethnic/religious communities that dominated on Earth.
I'd tweak her so that her faction is more about preserving the cultures and traditions of Earth in the face of factions led by radicals who want to completely reimagine society. I'd also paint her faction as being generically religious rather than specifically Christian.

More generally I think that the game should have mechanics which reflect the flow of people and information. The importance and threat that this flow poses is already a major theme in the game (and would be even more significant if it was made in today's interconnected world) but it isn't really modeled in game. Perhaps you could have some sort of 'open society' score, with more open societies getting bonuses to efficiency, economy and tech but being more vulnerable to espionage and foreign ideologies.

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>>52868650
Agreed.

>>52869071
>More generally I think that the game should have mechanics which reflect the flow of people and information. The importance and threat that this flow poses is already a major theme in the game (and would be even more significant if it was made in today's interconnected world) but it isn't really modeled in game. Perhaps you could have some sort of 'open society' score, with more open societies getting bonuses to efficiency, economy and tech but being more vulnerable to espionage and foreign ideologies.
One way to do that would be having neutral AI cities under Peacekeepers control from where other factions could convert people or get resources from trade, great people/specialists and information. They could serve as neutral ground for ideological warfare and proxy wars.

>Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is ours, chew and eat our fill— CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

This resounds to me the most. Why should we preserve for the future when the future is finite and there's no guarantee they will appreciate what we did? In the end the even the stars will all die. Eat drink and consume.

>>52869683
Well, because you don't want your children to starve is a good reason.

>Already we have turned all of our critical industries, all of our material resources, over to these...things...these lumps of silver and paste we call nanorobots. And now we propose to teach them intelligence? What, pray tell, will we do when these little homunculi awaken one day announce that they have no further need for us?

She is right you know.

>>52869750
>things...these lumps of silver and paste we call nanorobots. And now we propose to teach them intelligence? What, pray tell, will we do when these little homunculi awaken one day announce that they have no further need for us?

Bribe them with nanoopium we drugged them with all since the beginning. One quick fix and they are docile and loyal again as usual.

>>52869782
Why don't you let Nanobatman solve all of your problems?

>>52868280
>What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

And:

>My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?

>>52869814
I would if I could

We must dissent

>>52869982
This.

>The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesteryear. But it was never the streets that were evil.

Greatest truth, evil is in people and how people use technology.

>>52870026
>Evil is in people
>People breathe air

>>52868911
>Miriam
>Humane
>Le righteus true believers!
>Die heretic!
Truly, Protestants are retarded

>>52868920
You know the major difference between Catholics and everyone else in Christianity?
The utmost focus is put on New Testament and not being cunt, rather than the "wrathful God Almighty, let me smite you for wearing wrong clothes" from the Old one.

>>52868942
>Be Protestant
>Extensively wank about Augustine idiotic philosophy and extensive reinterpretation of Christianity into religion of cunts
>Pretend that's the true spirit of the religion
>Ignore it was just one really twisted faggot who misinterpreted half of the shit and then Luther "rediscovered" his bullshit as "true" and "pure"
Cry me some more about not being faithful, heretic.

>>52869017
>How it's revelant I was rised in a (even if nominally) Protestant country with deeply rooted cultural quirks when I'm looking on a Protestant interpretation of Christianity and why it would affect my perception
I don't know anon. I don't know.

>>52869750
No, she's the classic reactionary that is so fucking panicked in any forms of change or something beyond direct control, with easy-to-digest explaination she will instantly start beating the drum of "We must dissent".
This and of course lagging behind the technological race so hard she needs to find some solid excuse for own people why they are still building tinfoil habitats by hand when everyone else is using nanotechnology and AI for that. Because nothing gives better "moral upper hand" than pretending others are just evil and corrupt by not being as weak as you are.

>>52870923
So what, you think ignorance is bliss?
I bet you think the dark ages were a happy and prosperous time, too.

>>52866612
john cena?

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>>52871256
The fuck it even has to do with my post?

>>52870923
>The utmost focus is put on New Testament and not being cunt, rather than the "wrathful God Almighty, let me smite you for wearing wrong clothes" from the Old one.
>I will follow the law but the law is in the old OT so I will ignore all that happened. Oh and you cannot divorce if you are cucked even through Jesus said it was okay because reasons.

>>52871004
>No, she's the classic reactionary that is so fucking panicked in any forms of change or something beyond direct control, with easy-to-digest explaination she will instantly start beating the drum of "We must dissent".
>Anon really thinks it's a good idea to give AI to nanorobots
I bet you think Skynet was a good idea too.

>>52871558
Not even him, but by your logic, we should still adhere to slavery, stone people to death for planting two crops side by side and burn them for wearing clothes made of mixed fibres.
After all, that's all in the Bible.
And precisely WHY you should use millenium old religious scriptures to govern your life

>>52871558
>I will follow the law but the law is in the old OT so I will ignore all that happened
Isn't Christianity about forgiveness and redemption and being able to step over past mistakes and make them right? That's what you should do with old dumb laws.

>>52871591
I bet you don't even know how much of your life is already governed by AI systems, but since prevailing image of popculture, you think the only AI possible is murderous robot/computer trying to wipe out humanity.
Which in my book perfectly fits the image of stupid reactionary that will always cry about progress, not even noticing how he's already using those hateful modern applications

Also, did you at least notice that within reaches of SMAC, AI is considered on par with citizens? Or you've intentionally skipped 1/3 of the game's lore?
Or, since the evil AI is so evil and murderous - this apparently doesn't apply to humans, rigth? Because humans can't use nanobots as a weapon! They are too moral for that.
Oh, wait, they've shouldn't develop them in the first place, since, you know, technology is EVIL!

>>52871598
>>52871639
>I don't know why those applied so instead of researching the reasons I will pretend they never happened, like all laws had the same context or the same motives

>>52871256
>I bet you think the dark ages were a happy and prosperous time, too.
Well, he can't have any opinion on something that never existed.

>>52871646
>AI systems we have in our world are on par of self sentience like in a fictional futuristic setting
kys

>>52871477
you are referring to Augustinian teachings, which teach that there is no inherent conflict between faith and reason.

Miriam seeks to halt progress by stifling scientific advancement for the sake of protecting society. I merely alluded to the fact that this exact type of thinking was what was prevailent during the medieval period of history known as "the dark ages"

>>52871803
Each time you write a green text post you lose 50% of remaining credibility points

>>52871835
>The only possible advanced AI is a murderous machine that will proceed with wiping out humans
You were saying something about killing yourself?

>>52871646
the problem isn't that we think that AI will be "evil", its that we believe they will be modeled after humans, and like humans, be self-serving. While human beings are capable of acts of charity and generousity, it certainly isn't the norm, in fact the biological imperitive seems to exclude the notion of peaceful cooexistance.

If AI are like us, they will want to grow, develop and expand, and might come into conflict with humans. If our creations are indeed superior to us, we may find ourselves at their mercy, in direct competion over resources or embroiled in a conflict over mercurian ideology.

>>52871846
>Augustine
>teach that there is no inherent conflict between faith and reason
Are you sure you didn't confuse with Thomas Aquinas?

Because the very core of Augustine teaching is "who cares about anything, salvation is all you need to bother, and only faith leads there, so stop thinking - believe!".

>>52871925
>its that we believe they will be modeled after humans
>My only source of information what AI even is is solely based on sci-fi literature
Jesus fucking Christ, I know people are shit at this subject, but this is going too far.

>>52871858
>it's only a possibility an self aware AI going rogue and wiping all humans
>so as a complete retard I'm going to play dice with odds that may result in the extinction of my species. I will never roll a 1. Never.

>>52871951
aahhh, crap.
busted.

>>52871976
>My only source of information what AI even is solely based on sci-fi literature
>while talking about a fictional universe inspired in sci-fi literature
Fuck off retard.

>>52871976
Stop trying to use the term artificial intelligence as if it were anything other than a sci-fi term or programmers wank.

The word intelligence implies that a program is capable of problem solving and learning from new experiences. A program, no matter how sophisticated, can't do that.

>>52871853
Stop posting nonsense then I don't need to point it out.

>>52872016
Yes, because we should ignore real development in the field, so you can have your fictional wank.

>>52872030
Oh, so I'm suppose to stop, while you can claim retarded bullshit about "the AI would be just like humans and humans are inheritently evil and corrupt".
Fuck off already

>>52872033
You didn't use green text this time :^)

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>SMAC thread
>Everything goes fine
>WE MUST DISSENT!
>Autistic screetching commences
Every fucking time.

I still hope there will be a day people will ignore the obvious bait related with dissent-posting

>>52872113
Hear hear! Mirriam brings nothing good to this world or any other. Her teams of shitposting probes should be ignored.

>>52872079
The term AI had a predefined meaning in science fiction before people started to refer to good programming practices as "Artificial Intelligence".

It means SENTIENCE. If you use the word Artificial Intelligence to refer to something else, (outside of programming jargon) you are using the word incorrectly.

>>52872113
Jeesus, my life in a nutshell. How did I grow up to be so passive aggressive and contrary? Why do I perceive people in a group and people as individuals as separate identities?

>>52871397
Does moot hate John Cena?

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>>52872166
>If you are referring to the real deal, you are doing it wrong
>I, on the other hand, shitposting about fictional counterpart, have the upper hand and can say whatever I want

I think a lot of the issues with Mirium in-game would be fixed with some very slight changes.

Mostly in her aversions and AI.

Have her Aversion be Power, rather than Knowledge. Her worries are all about using inventions for evil ends (And no core faction has it as an aversion). So her worries are about seeing people bringing our armies of cutting edge gear and weapons of mass destruction.

Have her AI be less damn warmongering. Have her focus more on her real strength in her Probe Teams. She will steal everyone's tech and build up her forces. All while being VERY willing to attack anyone who brings out a superweapon like a planetbuster or who starts a war with a faction significantly weaker than their own. Perhaps (If you wanted to make an actual mechanical change) swap her +25% Attack to +25% Defence to make her more of a slow build military victory rather than initial blitzing.

I'd also make Fundamentalist a bit less 'It's all about faith' and more about 'A fanatical focus on your faction's theme'. So fundamentalist morganites have gone full Ayn Rand for example. As right now it's an approach that only really feels fitting for the Lord's Believers, which I don't feel helps the game.

That would fit better with her fluff, imo.

>>52872308
Not him, but yes it is you mongoloid.

AI in Mass Effect would be like the Geth, not like AI in Starcraft computer opponents. It's obviously that AI in this case (which is what Miriam warned about) means SELF AWARE.

>>52872113

Superior probe teams.

>>52872375
Also not him, but the AI in SMAC, as already mentioned, counts like regular citizens. Just read through techs when AI is finally achieved and all the techs related with it, especially the economical ones.
In short - they count as people, not as machines. Meanwhile, Miriam performs reactionary screetching, because lo and behold, it's not a human being, but acts like one! We surely must dissent.

And then people wonder why nobody but contrarians like that stupid bitch.

>>52868698
More like :
>Since you are whinning so much about nature's pristine beauty being raped by our factories, YOU show us how YOU make people happy WITHOUT tearing a new one to Gaia.

>>52872444
>Meanwhile, Miriam performs reactionary screetching, because lo and behold, it's not a human being, but acts like one! We surely must dissent.
She desperately needs her own Sexual Optimizer

>>52872444

Mind you, AC was a bit before we could have Stellaris-style 'Oh shit, AI uprising' easily included in such games.

Mirium would sound a LOT more reasonable in a game like Stellaris where various techs can potentially end civilisation for everyone without the player's help.

>>52872444
>Meanwhile, Miriam performs reactionary screetching, because lo and behold, it's not a human being, but acts like one! We surely must dissent.
Taking into account that this being could wipe out humanity with his self making factories and much more powerful mechanical brains who don't age and can calculate much faster and with much precision I'm sure those fears are well justified.

>>52872553
>B-but the AI just MUST rebell eventually!
>I-it just must
>M-miriam is right!
Kys

>>52872325
These are all really good changes. And I can't recall seeing them suggested before so bonus points for that.

>>52872571
>the AI has a chance of rebelling and ending all life, but I'm sure it will never rebel in the who knows how many years of our existence in the future. Surely.
Kys

>>52872556
Taking into account people are perfectly capabe of wiping each other and yet they don't do, but assuming a machine would do that solely because it's not a human being is just retarded.
Those fears are completely unjustified, because they assume from the very start that:
- AI acts like a human being
- it thinks like a human being despite obvious differences
- humans themselves are evil with no exceptions, thus the AI must be evil with no exceptions
This is precisely where being Protestant fundie leads - you start with retarded assumption that only few chosen are good and noble and solely because God wills it, then you spread it into all other assumptions and in the end it leads to situation where you don't even assume any other option than the murderous AI abominations wiping out humankind
This also indirectly answers previous question by random Scandinavian anon what difference does it make from what country does he originates and what is the local religious tradition.

>>52872571
I have to agree with this guy. These wild expectations of a crazy woman make no sense.

>>52872571

I didn't say it must. Just that the game sort of neuters her arguments with it's mechanics preventing tech having accidental or unintentional consequences. You can't have gene engineering accidentally make a hell of a plague or an AI uprising (Even with the exceptionally creepy self aware cities) or an industrial accident with your new nanofabber eat half a city.

I mean, in real life, america dropped a nuke on itself. By accident. It's sorta fortunate that it didn't go off.

>>52872623
>Taking into account people are perfectly capabe of wiping each other and yet they don't do
Please try to wipe out the USA. I'm waiting. Oh you can't? Then kill yourself.

> but assuming a machine would do that solely because it's not a human being is just retarded.
Ignoring the problem is that not only it isn't a human being so it doesn't have our racial preservation value, the problem is that it's completely superior to a thinking human. You are retarded.

>AI acts like human beings
>Human beings can be evil
>An AI however is completely superior to a human being which means an evil AI could easily kick the crap of humanity
If you stopped complaining about muh fundies like an autist and turned on your brain, have you already figured out what the crux of the matter is?

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>>52872729
>Missing the point this hard
>Baiting this strong

>>52868721
lel, fedoratipping atheist

>>52872862
>lose argument
>muh bait
The fact remains that self awareness to machines is a terrible idea. If in Stellaris, Drones and Robots are okay, Synths is a recipe for trouble.

>>52872729
>Please try to wipe out the USA. I'm waiting. Oh you can't?
Are you stupid enough to start nuclear war over your arrogance? Please, sterilize yourself, make humanity a favor.

>>52871976
Meh, the issues we got with current AIs are that they're tools that perpetuate their creator's worldview. We got no reason to assume that this would change in AIs capable of more independant action.

At some point we'll get an AI that's programmed to not think of, plan or perpetuate the genocide of all WASPs, so from a technological perspective Skynet is inevitable while WASPs or folks from non-WASP races steeped in WASP culture work in tech.

>>52872975
>anon is incapable of getting the point
Since you are retarded let me explain: a human going rogue is not as big of a deal as an AI going rogue.

You could for example get out of your chair and decide 'I'm going to wipe humanity!', but all you would do is perhaps shoot a few people before getting shot down by a fat cop who was eating donuts.

>>52868721
You're not very good at practicing it, are you? I bet you dont even sing or do Reconciliation and yet celebrate the eucahrist.

t. New convert

>>52873013
Since you are retarded let me explain: you don't have to give AI more authority and control than feel comfortable. That's not very hard for your chicken brains to understand, I hope.

>>52873077
>anon is circling back now
>pops an argument he didn't make before
>it's still a retarded argument
Tell me anon, how are you going to make sure a self aware machine who is more advanced than a human being will only act in your human perspective?

>>52873161
I'm not even that anon. I just find your retarded green texts amusing.

>>52873205
>I'm not him, really
>I will however act retarded and call you it instead, surely that will make you look retarded
Yeah... I don't think this is working as you think it would anon.

>>52873077

So you are following her philosophy?

Miriam's point isn't that such tech will ALWAYS be misused inherently. She wants people to be very careful and safe with tech rather than rushing ahead without considering the right ways to make sure it's safe.

I mean, the University has extra drones due to just how little they do that and how much the non-scientist population gets fucked up as a result.

>>52873247
>I don't think
Don't try thinking too hard, you are bad at this.

>>52873273
Nah, I was just giving you a friendly hint. But I guess you missed it again, so why bother?

>>52873256
>So you are following her philosophy?
>Miriam's point isn't that such tech will ALWAYS be misused inherently.
> ALWAYS
Nope. Most people don't want to use it for malicious purposes. It's up to us to ensure it won't fall in the wrong hands. Her ramblings are lies and fearmongering to win political points.

>>52873310
Not enough greentext, friend

>>52873359

>It's up to us to ensure it won't fall in the wrong hands.

The issue there is that it's the wrong hands developing it in the first place. See: The University, which has 'Bad ethics and safety' literally as one of the game mechanics for them.

If that's who was developing most of the advanced tech about here, I'd be pretty worried too.

>>52873038
>Neofite
Kys already

>>52873452
>The issue there is that it's the wrong hands developing it in the first place. See: The University
They aren't as bad as Yang or Deidre

>This entire thread
Holy shit...

I now regret bumping it from page 9

>>52873359
How are her rambling lies and fearmongering when they are correct?

Do you Miriam is fearmongering if she tells you it's not a good idea to create a zombie virus or black hole generator?

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All this talk of collectivism makes me heave. Whoever brings me the heads of Yang and Domai get 10 million energy, per head!

>>52873452
>Le wrong hands argument
As in - any other hands than Miriam's, so she starts bitching how technology is bad and evil, because she doesn't have it herself?

>>52873256
They're not really treating them badly but rather it's an extremely meritocratic system where status = knowledge and its advancement.

The less capable just get left behind. Of course, the less capable riff-raff might also be worried about EXTREME TECH 6000, when you consider it could very well be just like luddites staring at Ayys descending from the sky.

>>52873523
See why you mustn't dissent, anon

>>52873546
>Domai
>Collectivism
Seriously, nigga? Seriously?

>>52873522
>>52873555

They literally have bad ethics as one of the major mechanical/fluff points for the faction. To directly quote:

>extra drone for every four citizen (lack of ethics)

>>52873573
>University
>Lack of ethics bullshit
>Hive with actual lack of ethics
>No mechanics around that
Brilliant

>>52873573
It can't beat lack of ethics in Hive or hippy mindworm police

>>52873603
>t.Zachary

>>52873603
>No mechanics around that
Hive is simply more efficient with its social engineering. IIRC they get less votes too.

>>52873603

They do, actually.

>+1 Industry (brutal serfdom)
>-2 Economy (little political freedom)
>May not use Democratic politics.

He's just evidently a lot better at it.

>>52873573
Exactly in the same way that any kind of extremely rationalist society does, really.

Rationalistic science-based people are not the types to ask should you do a thing. All they ask if it comes up can it be done.

Or do tell me, how often do you see engineers doing debating sociology or other humanitarian (moralistic) causes?

>>52873664

That's because there's no reason to debate sociology or other psuedosciences; they should be rightfully ingnored and their practicioners purged.

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>>52873628
>>52873640
>No penalty for running totalitarian regime

>>52873664

>Or do tell me, how often do you see engineers doing debating sociology or other humanitarian (moralistic) causes?

A lot, honestly. I mean, I'm doing a research project for IT myself at uni currently. The amount of ethical stuff we need to do before we even get to consider doing any human testing is massive.

>>52873687
Actually there isn't but that's because the Hive is fanatical collectivist. People won't digress with your rule if they believe themselves to be no more than little cogs in your machine.

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>>52873745

It's (Sorta. Legalism is more complex and wider than the Hive shows it to be.) based on the Chinese philosophy of Legalism, which is very nasty and brutal but very good at enforcing law.

>>52873708
>ethics in engineering

What a shit program. It's STEM, you're already better than the peons, you should be expected to act like it.

>>52874374
I guess it's pretty nice in University if you're one of the scientists. Less so if you're one of the guinea pigs.

Why does the Free Drones get drones?

>>52873603
So are you saying Zakharov actually has ethics?

>>52874553
They ask them to join their cause

>>52874520
>Less so if you're one of the guinea pigs.
In every society it's better be at the top than at the bottom

>>52874553
Because they aren't as good as they think they are.

>>52874583
"We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled.

But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any
particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in
a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events
of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose
meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

—Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED"

I think I will take being a poorfag in Miriam's base, thank you very much.

>>52874611
I would like living under Miriam too, seeing as I'm sure she wouldn't do things like the Self Aware Colony.

>>52874553

They get -1 Drones per base. So they are pretty resistant to it.

My bigger question: Why are they opposed to Green policies rather than Police State? They are people who all rose up against oppression and cast off the Hive.

Having them hate police state would also make the AI more likely to actually fight the Hive. Right now they don't have any philosophical opposition that the AI can make use of.

>>52874639
I can't tell if you are sarcastic or not, so I will just reply to both interpretations.

Yes, Miriam's base is probably pretty nice is you tow the party line of Christianity. So long as you (pretend to) are a believer, you're fine.

But in case you were being sarcastic, the very video of the Self-Aware Colony is her rallying against the notion.

>>52874642
Yangs drones are happy through.

>>52874611
>I think I will take being a poorfag in Miriam's base
Duly noted, heretic

>>52874642
I also never understood this, but the in-game (and pretty shit one if you ask me) justification is:
They don't mind pulling China to achieve thier utopia, which means they don't give two squats about nature.

The real explaination:
Balancing. They are already OP as they are, with Green being enabled they are just ungodly powerful.
Still doesn't stop me from switching the faction file to represend that you've just described: no Police State, enabled Green.

>>52874674
Yes, I was being serious. I know she was rallying against it and I agree with her. Like those other draconians techs.

>>52873522
Deidre isn't particularly bad. She's pretty brutal in war, but her actual society is never shown as anything but generally pleasant.

>>52874642
>Why are they opposed to Green policies rather than Police State?
To show they favor industry over ecology? It would make sense for them to hate Police State given their history with Hive but receive only halved bonus from Green economy.

>>52874683
Pardon?

>>52874720
Gotcha. I couldn't be sure in this thread of Zakharov fellatio and fedora-tipping.

>>52874686
At least Domai is a good faction to add to the game, unlike, say, the Data Angels. Fuck 'em.

>>52874642
>Why are they opposed to Green policies rather than Police State?
They are free drones, a lot of industry is their staple.

>>52874763
>Deidre isn't particularly bad.
I don't believe you. Sparta Command, nevar forget.

>>52874781
From all SMAX factions, Domai and MAYBE Consciousness are fine. If you squint, Cult is passable, fluff-wise at least. Data Angels and Pirates are a fucking joke.

>>52874802
Lot of industry =/= no Green
Meanwhile the lack of Police State should be an obvious choice

>>52874767

I think the issue is as >>52874686 said, balance. The 'No green' is a balancing thing more than it is philosophical. Considering even Yang can choose to run a green society if he wants. SMAC was fun but it had some balance issues they clearly tried to work around with expansion factions.

>>52874806
>Missing Spartans
I love the irony of it all. The most gung-ho, combat oriented faction wiped without even KNOWING they were at war.
All assisted with Santiago's boasting about importance of intel and data

>>52874806
Spartans are just mad that all their posturing and militarism got shitstomped by a hippie and her pets.

>>52874829

Cult I think would have worked fine as just 'What the hippies are if you go fundamentalist'.

I think that Fundamentalist was honestly a really poor choice when only a single one of the factions is really religious in the core game and even the expansion only brings that up to two.

>>52874763
Except by the fact they defend those brain eating worms.

I sincerely would stay away from any society which considers living near xenofungus.

>>52874850
>>52874859
I simply don't see appeal of pagan hippy bitch. Her using mindworms and native fauna is the last nail in the coffin. She would make a good slave though.

>>52874781
Miriam is a heretic and most people who like her are heretics

>>52874830
SMAC was pretty balanced. It's SMAX that is utterly out of whack when it comes to balancing mechanics. Domai, Aki and both Progenitor factions come with absurd edge over everything else. Even if you scratch Progenitors as intentionally OP, you are still left with ungodly powerful Domai and Aki.

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>>52874882
>>52874886
>not taking advantage of the local wildlife
Next you're going to tell me that using wolves for hunting was a mistake.

>>52874886
Stay mad, Santiago. Go read Heinlein and cry instead.

>>52874910
The irony of your words...

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>>52874886

>>52874945
To be fair, the Progenitors usually have to go solo.

>>52874945

Eh, Human Hive was pretty OP. Mostly due to them seriously undervaluing 'No inefficiency'.

>>52874962
>Stay mad, Santiago
I don't play Spartans but I purge hippies one of the first

>>52874957
Wolves cannot mind rape and then put ravenous larva in your brain while you are alive through...

>>52874965
Yeah, but they can't pop-boom.
Any faction that can't pop-boom is by default seriously weakened.

>>52874986
>Purging literally one of the most based factions of both vanilla and expansion
Spotted contrarian.

>>52874957
We don't hunt people with wolves. And we certainly don't use wolves for agonizing death through brain eating.

>>52874987
So what are you saying? Mind worms would be ok, if they would just brutally rip your throat?
Seriously mate, stey mad, but at least don't make a laughstock out of yourself

>>52875011
Nope, hippies are trash and deserve to be turned into fertilizer for their favorite fungi

>>52875015
>Implying combat-trained dogs weren't a thing
>Implying they aren't used even today
>Implying it makes a difference how you die
>Implying being mauled isn't one of the most gruesome ways to die IRL

>>52875033
>So what are you saying? Mind worms would be ok, if they would just brutally rip your throat?
Hell yeah, just like shooting someone is okay but using chemical weapons isn't.

>>52875058
I see it's you, dumb greentext poster. No wonder your posts are retarded.

>>52872623
>Taking into account people are perfectly capabe of wiping each other and yet they don't do

Clearly you've never worked in a care home before.

>>52874886
>>52874986
>>52875044
>Hippies
Can someone explain me why the hell people call Gaians hippies? They have literally NOTHING to do with counter-culture, if not being a direct fucking opposite of it.

>>52874962
>The irony of your words...
Atheist Swedes are the same kind of garbage

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>>52874987
No, but they can rip your throat out and eat your baby. Any animal is dangerous if you don't know what the fuck you're doing, but the Gaians prove there's a way to handle them without running headlong into a CoC bad end.

>>52875015
>We don't hunt people with wolves.
Excuse me?

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>>52875072
>Get rekt to the orbit
>HURRR GREENTEXT DURRR

>>52875119
>Excuse me?
We use them mainly for guard duty and searching, not to eat brains of living people. It must be hard for a /d/egenerate to understand the difference.

>>52875152
Another retarded greentext from green loving hippie, how fitting

>>52875155
>Still pretending it makes a difference if you are mauled and your head torn off in the process or just get larval implantation in your brain
You die horribly in both cases, and you are seriously trying to build your claim in some retarded "logic" of "B-but dogs won't kill you"
They will fucking rip you to shreds if ordered to. And unless you will have enough cold blood in yourself and a gun, you are going to fucking die.

>>52875103
Because americans can't handle nuance, so anything related to nature MUST be hippie.

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>>52872571
>>52872610

>>52875177
It's getting boring, buster. At least try to pretend you have some arguments in your sleeve

>>52875206
Yep, chicken brain /d/egenerate doesn't get it.

>>52875224
Give me all (You)s you have, idiot like you have no use for them anyways

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>>52875177
>>52875228
>>52875249

>>52875206
In fairness Mind Worms are treated as being an uncommonly painful and slow way to die even before you take into account their psychic effect on people.
Of course you still end up dead in the end and it isn't like there aren't plenty of conventional weapons of war which kill in slow and agonizing ways.

>>52875213
Well, it's.... I guess it's kind of fitting
Kind of like all the band-waggoning anything even remotely on the left side as "communism"

>>52875296
Thanks

>>52875314
As far as I'm concerned, anything goes. It's obvious Gaians don't stand any chance whatsoever in direct engagement with Spartans, but who said they even need to bother with the warfare, if they can pretty much convince the Planet itself to wipe Spartans out.
And those poor bastards won't even know it was organised series of campaigns, and not just random mind worm swarms attacking from all sides.

Daily reminder the quote from building secret project granting perimeter defense is from Spartan perspective.

>>52875213
Rather people don't bother to make special term and use somewhat fitting name of existing subculture

>>52875383
>I have no idea what hippies were
Thanks for confirming.

To provide you some perspective about hippies and Gaians: it's like calling tacos your favourite Italian food.

>>52875422
You are welcome, greentexting retard

>>52875445
And an insight for you - there are more than 2 people using this board

>>52875470
You could improve your posts by using that insight

>>52875379
What always bugs me (no pun intended) is WHY in the first place there was this whole war.

>>52868650
Yeah man, fuck teleporting, muh seoul will be taken by worst korea or some shit

>>52875721
Seeing how the first people teleported were lost, I'm pretty sure she is right in being cautious about it's use.

Keep in mind it's not an impossibility of her using it, more like a thought about the implications of what it could mean.

>>52875708
Well, Santiago decided that sooner or later there would be a war, so she'd make sure her peeps were the bestest everest at war, and then since they were so good at war they started to go to war against people so those people wouldn't be able to go to war against them, and that's why there's a war.

>>52875775
Come off it, Mirriam's concerns about the new technology don't come from any ethical level, her fear of the teleporter is in it's spiritual effect, her creed of "we must dissent" is merely a religious call for temperance rather than a legitimate call for restraint in technology, Mirriam's sin is not to care about the actual ethical dilemmas of the tehcnology, whilst Zakharov's sin is to drive his flock away from the ethical dilemmas of his technological advancements, as seen in the video for the singularity inductor.
Mirriam's a total luddite, totally unconcerend with actual ethical considerations, blinded by religion in her examination and appraisal of technology.

>>52875778
>When you go against one of the most peaceful factions in game and end up razed to the ground, while they didn't even bother to build up any army or military

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>>52875775
>Normal people
Shit man, this didn't work, we better be careful until we master this stuff
>Miriam
REEEEEE! DISSENT NOW!

>>52875964
>Science
>Ethical dilemmas
You have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.

>>52875994
The thing is, the Gaians aren't even that peaceful (obviously), they're just better at adapting. The Spartans were structuring their entire society around the militaries of old Earth, preparing to fight wars between armies. Meanwhile the Gaians looked at their new environment and resources and got to work taming mind worms and mastering psychic powers.

>>52876078
If science creates tools for the purpose of preventing the pointless expenditure of human labour then inflicting pain upon humanity is simply a waste of valuable human resources.

>>52876121
With attitude like this you are doing nothing more than risk evasion. Sooner or later you just MUST do a test with a human subject. Be it launching Gagarin in space or trying to teleport a ship across warp gate

>>52876211
Sure, but that means we've made the ethical consideration, minimizing humans risks is scientific ethics, eventually someone's going to have to brave it, but it'd be unethical to have that be our first option, if we don't have ethical consideration for our fellow man then all of society falls apart.

>>52876315
Given one of the game-opening techs is Ethical Calculus and is about mathematical logic applied to ethical dilemmas, it shouldn't bother anyone in the verse.
Which is one of many reasons why Miriam rubs me the wrong way - she ignores that, while it's pretty much the very fundation of humanity in the game and she's one of the first to adopt that tech due to starters.

>>52876089
In a lot of ways the Gaians are the mirror image to the kind of survivalism the the Spartans advocate.
The Spartans are all about the need to impose your will on a hostile environment through brute force to survive. The Gaians are all about surviving through cooperation and accommodation.

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>>52866129
Yang deserves a one-way trip on a copter

>>52876392
It's almost as if religious fundamentalists are hypocrites who are emmienintly capable of ethical gymnastics already because of the great x factor, God

>>52876392
Seeing how most of the factions are amoral, I think it didn't work.

>>52879286
Salty.

>>52879979
>Amoral
Given that ALL factions in game abandon any form of Earth morality (including even Lal), I hardly see how term "amoral" is capable of describing anyone.
Hell, even on Earth you can use that word without precising which set of morals are you using as the base for comparison.

>>52879979
I didn't say ALL religions, just fundamentalists. Who are ironically not very fundamental because their supposition that 'this is how ancient people believed/worshipped' is false.

>>52880060
How about not using people as commodies with overcontrolling technologies who mess with their very core?

I mean, something went wrong if the moral standards in the future are more backwards than those of the past.

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SO would the cyborgs trying to get their jimmies rocking be endearingly awkward or hilariously cringy?

>>52880257
Both probably, but more cringe than anything else. There's a reason they take a hit to reproduction

>>52880381
Which makes no sense to me, why no just have clinical lab reproduction? Collect sperm, insert sperm into ovum. Fuck with the technology they have they could create artificial wombs, female platforms wouldn't even need to get pregnant

>>52880122
>Muh morals
WHAT morals. I'm asking you for the 2nd time and you dodge the question.

Is it really so fucking hard to understand there is no universal, permanent, constant and global moral standard?

>>52880422
>Implying that's now slower and lower than just having sex
>Implying this is not the very reason they take that reproduction hit
At least that's my headcanon for them

>>52880257
I miss days when Jo was /tg/ regular.

>>52880422
Think of present day Japan cranked up to 11.
It's not just actual insemination that people are hesitant about it's the very idea of parenting. And I guess you can't leave the whole child rearing to machinery, no matter how advanced, because that way lies autism. The literal kind.

>>52880620
Autism would be an advantageous trait in the Cyber society

>>52880536
>dodge the question
Nice try. I just said it: using technologies such as nerve stappling, messing with people genetic makeup or minds without consent, creating AIs to control every aspect of their lives.

I would say that 'love each other' and 'treat others as you would like to be treated' is a permanent and constant moral standard. But then you will probably just tip and say 'morals are relative!'

>>52880642
I think anybody with a sliver of psychological education would disagree.
Even if we choose the favorable interpretation of the condition - preference for order and routine, literal thinking, strong specialization in one field of interest, that could be utilized for "society of experts", such society still makes them very inflexible and vulnerable in face of any adversity.

>>52880642
>Autism
>Desirable
You've just confirmed you have no idea what real autism is about and how disfunctional it makes you.

>>52880651
>Nice try
>Said the dodger
You said what's wrong, you didn't said according to what standard.

>is a permanent and constant moral standard
>What was Nazi Germany
>What is just about any ethnic-based conflict ever
>What are religious wars
>What are religious wars between believers of religions all about treating others as you would like to be treated"
Really nigga? You gonna seriously keep pushing?
Or maybe you will realise it's utterly meaningless. Especially on alien planet. Especially among people who share two things in common: want to shape the new world their way and abandoned moral codes of the old one.

>>52880844
>You said what's wrong, you didn't said according to what standard.
I dunno you fuck, maybe the basic compassion standard that is innate of every being? The idea that someone mind raping you would be bad so you shouldn't go those with others? Gee anon, try thinking.

>Or maybe you will realise it's utterly meaningless. Especially on alien planet. Especially among people who share two things in common: want to shape the new world their way and abandoned moral codes of the old one.
Except by the fact that no matter how different societies are they all abide by the basic values such as for example that I punching you on the face hurts, so probably it wouldn't be a good idea to go punching people.

>>52880930
>basic compassion standard that is innate of every bein
Not even him, but do you realise no such thing exists?

>>52880930
>Except by the fact that no matter how different societies are they all abide by the basic values such as for example that I punching you on the face hurts, so probably it wouldn't be a good idea to go punching people
By your logic, solving problems through duels would never became a thing. And it only stopped being outright feud when any form of instuitutional governance became a thing and decided it's wasteful to have people kill each other over petty shit, as it's bad for tax income.

There is no universal moral standard, just like there is no basic compassion shared cross-culturally. You are basically pretending that deep down, ALL imaginable cultures, societies and social constructs are the same, and they are the same in their inheritent good nature.

That's a clinical delusion.
Especially when you consider what kind of nasty shit was performed in the name of "common good".

>>52880996
Not that anon but it totally is in herd/pack animals at least. We also call it empathy. It's born of the understanding that the health and well being of our group-mates is advantageous to our own survival. The laws of reciprocation are built on this. Incidentally this is the foundation for human civilization, the idea that we're better off working together.

I have no non human species that actually exist to compare this to.

>>52880996
>>52881080
I see you too are enlightened gentlemen with fine taste in headware, I tip my fedora to you sir or mlady

>>52880930
Just for reminder, 200 years ago it was perfectly fine to shank a guy if he called you names. And all in the majesty of law.
400 it was fine to burn people on stakes, because they suppsedly slept with the devil himself.
And 4000 the punishment for watering beer was death and enslavement for your family.

So what kind of "basic compassion standard innate to all beings" are you talking about?

>>52880996
Of course it does exists, any society in the world knows that if you provoke others there will be consequences so it's better to mind yourself. That's a basic level of morality that even fucking animals have it.

>>52881080
The point of duels was that you weren't entering to die, if you entered you were pretty sure you would win or wanted to avoid the consequences if you haven't. That has nothing to do with basic evolutionary morality.

Deep down, all societies derive from this primal evolutionary morality otherwise they wouldn't ever become societies.

The shit that happens for the common good is usually bad because the people who do those things don't put themselves into this consideration. Like 'let's kill all the poor' without considering 'wait what if I am poor'?

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>>52881135
>When out of arguments and pushed into a corner, start meming
You forgot to add smug anime face

>>52881158
>Just for reminder, 200 years ago it was perfectly fine to shank a guy if he called you names. And all in the majesty of law.
>400 it was fine to burn people on stakes, because they suppsedly slept with the devil himself.
>And 4000 the punishment for watering beer was death and enslavement for your family.

Why hello falacious and gross oversimplification

Why must you make a mockery of.such a fascinating subject as ancient law?

>>52881100

Triple dubs confirms empathy is real. Fuck.

>>52881212
I don't. I just point out shit was ALWAYS retarded and people always gladly killed each other for stupid reasons, even when they were technically following some highly complex moral code supposedly responsible for making them "good guys" in literal and figurative sense

>>52881190
One cannot be pushed into a corner by something full of holes built out of toilet paper and lace.

Your arguments and tbeir implications are so foolish they not only do not require a practical and reasoned response, they demand dismissal

One does not explain to the mad fool why the sky is not orange

>>52881158
Yes, because you were defending your status in the society. That's actually was a good reason to respect others.

Yes, because those people proprieties and resources would be awarded to the state. Ah and that was a good way of getting rid of political enemies.

Yes, because of disrespecting one of the cultural norms that were used to provide cohesion to the society.

None of those have anything to do with it. If you went shanking, burning and killing people willy nilly you would be a complete retard asking for trouble.

>>52881242
>stupid reasons
Maybe if you don't understand those reasons and the context behind them.

But the fact of the matter is that the moral code did provide a morality to the society, and it like all other moralities are derived from basic empathy that is innate of all social creatures.

>>52868695
Santiago's schtick is Survival at any cost. Everything not relating to keeping the Spartans alive: art, literature, science for it's own sake, personal freedom, the persuit of happiness, love is at best a distraction and at worst detrimental.

>>52881247
Funny.
So the moral compassion to other human beings works only when it's fine and dandy, but it's also fine and dandy to kill people when you see fit.
Nice "universal compassion" you've got there.
It has EVERYTHING to do with rebuking the retarded notion of "muh morals"
Morals are fluid, you've just proved it.

>>52881292
Oh, the "Handmaiden" argument. Let me then rebuke it with the Handmaiden counterargument then:
It doesn't matter what reasons standed behind killing someone. That person was killed for SOME reason. Be it bad-mouthing, witchcraft or shitty beer. All of them just as silly and cultural context changes nothing about them.

Apparently you (or the original anon) were claiming that there is universal code of morals. So either it's universal or contextual, since you are now talking about context?

Bottomline - doesn't matter for SMAC, doing all kind of shit, bad or wrong flies, and people who seriously consider Miriam as the only one with "moral core" don't even fucking understand how morality works and why using it doesn't make you instantly a "good person".

>>52881247
You've just justified three murder cases and slavery for petty and outright imainary reasons.
Congratulations on your way of claiming anything about human "innate compassion".

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>>52881245
>I still have no counter-argument whatsoever
>I will try to just call your names and your arguments silly
Literally high-school tier eristic tricks

>>52881382
Morals are fluid until a point, there is an universal evolutionary base for all morals.

For example, killing. Animals will kill their own species like for example to become the Alpha, but they won't go killing members of their pack willy nilly because it would hurt their changes of survival. It's not 'when you see fit', it's 'when you think it's necessary'.

And yes, just like fighting to be the Alpha those contexts are important to understand why those people are killed. Like for example securing resources and or spreading your culture.

I'm talking about context to show that those things happened in those exactly context, that they derived but they weren't the basic universal morality.

You may argue until you get purple, but the fact remains that biologically speaking there is a an universal morality made by basic empathy that is necessary for each society to exist. I don't even know how you are attempting to argue
against what is a scientific fact.

>>52881427
You could post I'm retarded and leave at it. The fact of the matter is that those things didn't happen just because, like wars and murders are never just because. There is a context about them, if we find this context justificable it's another matter.