Why is cyberpunk as a genre used less often than space opera?

>>52701562
Because by its very nature it is massively more limited in what can be done with it.

Most people can't run it without it being a poor adaptation of blade runner or ghost in the shell .

>>52701562
Because it sucks.

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>>52701562
I think that space opera—or whatever people are actually running—is more malleable because it generally has fantasy elements.

The space games I've played briefly acknowledge the physics of the FTL travel going on and then they get into exploration.
And if space fantasy/opera/etc. does anything, it gives you maximum opportunity to explore new cultures and worlds.

Also, Star Wars is more popular than Blade Runner.

>>52701562
It's a one note genre.

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>>52701562
Because space opera is basically nobledark fantasy set in space.
Cyberpunk is more along the lines of grimbright dystopia, which is a rather specific and niche genre - not everyone can pull off a proper grimbright, to be honest.

>>52701562
Because cyberpunk is becoming more real every year and it's not that fun to live in.

>>52701562
space opera is often modern fairy tales. cpunk is grimdark (at best nobledark).

>>52704220
>nobledark
>>52703563
>grimbright

I lovehow peopel use yhese terms randomly and no coherent unanymous
Definition has been made.(i vote cyberpunk to be nobledark btw)

>>52704349
>i vote cyberpunk to be nobledark btw

And I vote locking stories and genres down to some stupid grid is pointless and oversimplifying.

>>52701562
Cyberpunk is naturally limited to the GM's understanding of technology, or at least to his understanding of other writers' assumptions about technology. It requires a lot of brainwork space opera doesn't necessarily have (though can still benefit from).

Plus, space opera allows for some pretty fun stuff which you just can't do in more earth-bound genres. Unless you're some stuffshirt I Hate Fun math robot, making the jump to hyperspace is fun for everyone.

>>52704428
>And I vote locking stories and genres down to some stupid grid is pointless and oversimplifying.
that's like sayng that i can't call someone straight or gay because it's oversimplifying, of course there are some inbetween cases, but most of the times a setting is one of the four, which doesn't mean it's just that, because there is a lot more to a setting then its tone, but it still is a fair dexcription.(if instead you meant not all cyberpunk is one or the other, then yes, we were talking about stereotyped cyberpunk)

>>52701562
Because Star Wars made more money.

People tend to go too dark with it, tends to sour the average persons opinion.

>>52701562
Because Cyberpunk is a far smaller genre with less possible stories.
(Not to knock it, i prefer cyberpunk to space opera)
The thing is, cyberpunk comes with more and stronger underlying assumptions, both about the genre itself as well as the stories being told:
Cyberpunk plays in the near future, 20XX, with visible holdovers from today
Cyberpunk has strong noir influences, so crime and the underbelly of society is a common theme
Cyberpunk often has an individualist and anti-establishment edge to it
Cyberpunk is somewhat hard scifi, most of the time

Space operas on the other hand are a far wider field, with a far wider range of acceptable things:
Space operas can play in 2185 or a long time ago, in a galaxy far away
Space operas draw from a far wider array of inspirations
Space operas range from anti-establishment to very 'patriotic'
Space operas can range from hard as diamonds to soft as butter scifi

Plus, space operas often center about a cast of main characters, aside from the lone protagonist in cyberpunk.

Because we already live it

>>52704349
>I lovehow peopel use yhese terms randomly and no coherent unanymous
>Definition has been made.(i vote cyberpunk to be nobledark btw)

You need a better keyboard app.

>>52703521
Yes. But it doesn't seem to have stopped people from playing Space Opera games.

>>52705322
sadly enough that was on desktop

>>52703563
Dat filename

I think it's because it takes place '15 minutes in the future', we keep overshooting in one place, and lagging behind elsewhere, so it's tough to make a product that doesn't feel dated in two years. Additionally, these days, action/espinoage and cyberpunk look pretty close to each-other (and from the Bond movies of the era, maybe in the 80s/90s too).

So all you got is themes. Humanity, identity, etc.
Or you're wallowing in the filth - roleplaying in the world that we hope isn't reality next year. The distance that Space Opera (or Fantasy) gives lets you enjoy the ride more.

>>52701562

Writting settings reliant on social commentary is harder than settings based on people dresses in strange togues firing lasers at each other.

>>52701562
Because it's monotonously edgy and un-versatile, and if you wanted to experience it all you'd have to do is make a dark CSS theme for facebook.

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>>52701562

Cyberpunk, at its core, is a horror story. Horror is extremely difficult to pull off well. The best cyberpunk stories are all existential horror.

Because of this, cyberpunk tends to do one of two things. It either hits far too close to home, or it goes over the audience's head.

One of the major themes in *punk is a feeling of helplessness. Lack of agency is ripe throughout most of these stories, and as mentioned, it hits far too close to home to most people and gives a slightly unsettling feeling. Mix this with its scifi wonder, and the whole thing has a very strong feeling of depersonalisation. This brings us to the second most common theme. Depersonalisation is rife in these stories, which, again, is rather offputting to the audience assuming they even notice it in the first place.

The two biggest films in the cyberpunk genre, Ghost in the Shell, and BladeRunner, both have these two main themes.

BladeRunner has highly oppressive overtones throughout the whole of the film. The architecture is oppressive as it is impressive. The weight of society weighs down upon the citizen's shoulders as they meander through their lives. Deckard doesn't really have a choice. He doesn't want to be there. But he can't escape it; and so he does what is expected of him. Mix this with the sense of wonder in the scenery, and the whole thing feels like a dream.

Ghost in the Shell is even worse. The entire film is about a middle aged japanese woman tumbles down even further into the rabbit hole of depersonalisation disorder. The film reflects this: it is transitory with unconnected scenes, she seems mute and unrefined and without emotion, the whole film is deadpan, and throughout it there is a feeling of futility and hopelessness.

Depression. Lack of agency. Depersonalisation. Futility. Hopelessness.

Audiences do not like these things. Space Opera may borrow from the visual thematics cyberpunk used heavily, but it isn't limited by its emotional scope.

>>52701562
there's no good system for it

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>>52701562

"It's time for the hacker to hack things!"

>20 minutes of 1 player doing the hacking, playing in the cyberworld, while the rest does nothing because none of them are hackers.

>>52701562
Because it requires futurised outdated tech instead of future tech like space opera.

Look at shadowrun it's a shit show the more it's been modernized

>>52709734

>thinking this is how hacking works

Guarantee you a bard/face could break into a secure network or server faster than a computer security expert with zero social skills.

MESSAGE TO FAGSHITE AND PARAPLEGIC AND ALL THE OTHER DICKHEADS!
BETTER LUCK THIS TIME! TRY AND REMOVE MORE THAT 20% OF THE
PROTECTION THIS TIME YOU USELESS CUNTS! ISN'T IT TIME YOU STOPPED
PULLING YOUR DICKS AND LEFT YOUR BEDROOMS AND GOT A REAL JOB?

GET OUT OF OUR CODE YOU FILTHY HACKERS 8-) BITCHES

>GM cyberpunk campaign
>ends up feeling like modern day crime-themed campaign but there's some robot limbs

How do I stop being a shitty GM and make cyberpunk feel like cyberpunk

>>52709920

See >>52709616.

>>52703563
>>52704349
If these terms are to be used for anything, its settings, not genres. cyberpunk can be grimbright, or nobledark, depending on what the author intends to convey. Same goes for space opera.

>>52709734
>"It's time for the hacker to hack things!"
Which is pretty outdated by now, especially when you consider how ubiquitous digital devices are, and related crime would be.

If anything, the difference between The Hacker PC and another PC who uses incidental hacking programs as part of [whatever their schtick is] should be how the former enables the entire job/mission/whatever in a world of constant surveillance just by existing - the better your Hacker, the better your targets can be. Seconds-long hacks like distorting someone's cybereye vision as you get to cover or go in for the kill should be part of everyone's arsenal.

>>52709920

You leave shit and rants that the programmers sometimes left in the code.

https://tcrf.net/Skullgirls/Unused_Text#Hidden_Developer_Comments.2FRant

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/eco-phantoms/trivia

https://tcrf.net/The_New_Tetris

>>52710133
Yes but that still basically equated to just a skill, unless you eliminate the whole hacker class you would still need one to do anything in-depth.

>>52701562
I can only give you the reason for happening in movies:

Space opera is set in vast amount of nothingness and the inside a metal/plastic house
Cyberpunk has a fuckton of elements that needs to be there to meet cyber terms, and the punk terms, and that's expensive.

>>52703563
>>52705122
>>52709297
>>52709616


These guys get it. I think you don't see it as often because honestly it's just harder to write and understand. I do disagree there are a limited number of stories, every setting is in theory "unlimited" but yeah...shit's hard man.

>>52710300
>Yes but that still basically equated to just a skill
It has been done that way previously. That doesn't mean it can only be done that way.

>unless you eliminate the whole hacker class you would still need one to do anything in-depth.
That depends on how you define 'in depth', and where you decide it's necessary.

>>52709909
What are you on about, gobshite

Because we live in Cyberpunk

>>52713222
>this meme again

>>52701562
People want an escape and Cyberpunk is closer to your real life than Space Opera

>>52704137
This.

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>>52709784
This. "Hacking" is just the exploitation of others' stupidity in relation to electronic security, sometimes in the actual software and hardware of their security, but far more often in meatspace. 20 CHA will get you into much more secured information than 20 INT.

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>>52701562
Not sure if this is a common problem, but I rarely run cyberpunk, because I have three people in my gaming group who have wildly different ideas about what "true" cyberpunk should look like, ranging from Deus Ex to Johnny Mnemonic to Shadowrun. While Deus Ex and JM guys tend to be willing to roll with whatever I do with the setting, Shadowrun guy gets super autistic, so I just don't run cyberpunk unless he isn't around.

>>52713753
>Shadowrun guy gets super autistic,
What does he get autismal about? Magic, working as deniable corp black-ops teams?

>>52713753
This is interesting to me--
After seeing all the fantasy settings, I was prepared to see cyberpunk come in different flavors.
However, most do seem to feature prominent neon lighting.

>>52713295
>implying it's a meme

I bet you work for the corps

>>52713962
Corporation don't yet have enough power or influence to rule places openly, at least, not in first-world countries, so yes it is a fucking meme, and will remain so until a corporation takes over part of Europe or of America.

>>52714036
Like what happened around 1900 with United Fruit?

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>>52713815
He just has a general list of items that must be in every cyberpunk setting or it isn't cyberpunk in his mind. He thinks that in a "true" cyberpunk setting:

1. Corporations need to control literally everything. Any governmental body should be a puppet-state at most.

2. Drug use should be rampant to the point of being commonplace and generally accepted by society at large.

3. The PCs should be little more than cogs in a machine. Even at higher levels, they should possess very little real socio-political power.

4. The setting needs to be grimy/dirty, with a ridiculously high poverty rate. As an example of what I'm talking about, he thinks Deus Ex isn't cyberpunk because it's aesthetic too clean/streamlined.

There are more, but I can't recall them off the top of my head. If a setting misses any one of these things, he doesn't consider it to be cyberpunk, and gets really peeved at anyone who does. Ironically, this means that most of the cyberpunk genre codifiers and IPs that inspired Shadowrun aren't cyberpunk in his mind.

>>52714045
Is it in effect today? No? Then, the answer is no.

>>52714045
South America isn't really America, you know that. Only the US and Canada count.

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>>52713815
>>52714055
>Magic
Oddly enough, he doesn't consider things like fantasy races or shamanistic magic to be vital to a cyberpunk setting. I should bring that up to him sometime.

>>52713902
>I was prepared to see cyberpunk come in different flavors.
It does, though the differences or more subtle than with fantasy. For example, Ghost in the Shell and Blade Runner may all look superficially similar, but once you dig deeper, you'll find that there's actually a lot of important differences.

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>>52714055
>he thinks Deus Ex isn't cyberpunk because it's aesthetic too clean/streamlined
Not to mention you play as the police.
Doesn't make him any less of a disagreeable schmuck though.

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>>52714055
Those four points help create the backbone of a good cyberpunk setting. In a romantic/classic Cyberpunk story the protagonists are the revolting element that twists and bends the rules of a world where rules are hurting the common man.

With that said, you run whatever cyberpunk world you can get players to enjoy. That's the beauty of writing your own stories and having players in them.

>>52701580
True only if you have 0 imagination to work with

>>52709734
It's their fault they've made shit-tier characters unadjusted for the type of game being played.

>>52714096
It is though. United Fruit is essentially the mother of all megacorps. Also Sao Paulo was way ahead in terms of being a cyberpunk dystopia.

>>52710133
This is basically the main reason I make sure that my players have either watched Sneakers or GITS; even Gibson moved past the "I have never touched a computer" shit and his post Neuromancer books are still good cyberpunk.

>>52714055
Really, I think this attitude, and even the less autistic version of it >>52714192 expresses, is why cyberpunk never managed to take off as more than a niche genre. With fantasy, for example, writers delight in subverting and switching out tropes and "essential" fantasy elements, with the results still widely accepted as fantasy; but with cyberpunk, if you don't follow all the codified, minute genre rules, it's not "tr0o cyb3rpunk." Sure, you have stuff like "post-cyberpunk" that's just cyberpunk but not keeping to all the autistically specific requirements, but the very fact such works have to identify that they're not cyberpunk proper still shows the problem that makes non-nostalgia fetishists stay away from a promising genre reduced to a stale corpse of a stock setting. The only remaining value cyberpunk still seems to have within wider culture is as a source of aesthetic motifs to be sampled and referenced by works that know better than to tread into a genre as fascistically overbearing as its setting.

>>52703563
>>52701580
this

>>52705122
Good points all.

>>52713590

The other big one I experienced as a sysadmin was the dreaded USB Stick in Parkinglot Attack.

Shit works too. We'd have to run a workshop occasionally about not sticking USB sticks that weren't from work into machines. It never stuck.

By the way, if you were ever audited by the IRS and then your identity was stolen after, I'm so, so sorry.

>>52714151
>Not to mention you play as the police.
Only in the beginning really.

Regardless, I think he meant Human Revolution/Mankind Divided, because the original doesn't really have much in the way of clean/streamlined places. But in the prequels it's also only there to provide a contrast. The beautiful and clean Upper City of Hengsha literally overshadows the filthy crime-ridden Lower City.

>>52713590
The best scene in Sneakers
>I really like the sound of your voice and there's one word I really like the sound of and I'd like you to say it. It's passport.
>Passport?

Seriously though imo the console cowboy is mostly a superficial archetype. Low life, high tech can be done just fine without.

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>>52718068
>By the way, if you were ever audited by the IRS and then your identity was stolen after, I'm so, so sorry.
Explain.

>>52703563
>nobledark
>grimbright
stop using these terms.

>>52718445

Government workers and tax attorneys are fucking retards: they kept sticking USB sticks they found in the parkinglots into their computers. They had shit that would automatically install onto the machines. Trojans, key loggers, etc. Occasionally, one of them would get stuck into a server at this one office. No idea if anything was stolen or not.

I kept reporting it to my and their bosses and trying to clean up after.

>>52718558
Jeez. I should go work for the government. Mediocre pay, great benefits, and I'd easily be smarter then 90% of my peers in the technical department if this is the kind of shit they pull.

>>52718591

But then you'd have to work with government employees. Meaning, you'd have to play by their rules and on their level. They don't hire smart people because smart people seem stupid to them. Why? You don't do things their way.

I no longer work for those fucks and am so much happier.

>>52718558
God, I have no idea why people think free USBs they find is a good idea. Isn't that the theory behind the cyber attack against Iran a few years back? Though, tax attorneys might have their heads up their own ass too much to think about common sense. Open source intel is another thing people very much underestimate; way to post a pic of your office with a server and identifying marker outside of the window.

>>52718591
Private suits are just as stupid about computer security. That trick would work at any office, period.

>>52701562
Because you don't make settings based on the reality you live in.

Because most groups want an excuse to spout Monty Python, Avengers, Dr. Who and Star Wars references, whereas cyberpunk is generally too dark for that.

>>52718793

Protip: most attorneys have their heads up their own assholes and lack common sense.

>>52714055
>1. Corporations need to control literally everything. Any governmental body should be a puppet-state at most.
>2. Drug use should be rampant to the point of being commonplace and generally accepted by society at large.

He must not like Ghost in the Shell very much.

>>52711891

That's a message that was put into something for hackers to find.

>>52718897
Pretty much this.
We live in a cyberpunk setting. But with better public sanitation.

>>52709616
This is a good point.
It's horror, but not in the way that most people think about it.
The horror isn't fear of death, it's fear of losing your self.

Runners/punks/street samurai/whatever always have the option of quitting and getting a mcjob with a mcappartment in a mcneighborhood finding a nice mcwife and having a socially responsible number of mckids.

>>52718068
Kind of want to play a game as a bunch of sys admins/middle managers who have to try and stop hackers from figuring out what the company is keeping in sub basement 12.

Any anon can recomend an action cyberpunk game playable with miniatures?

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>>52714192
I agree that they're good guidelines for cyberpunk, it's just that he considers them all to be dogma, and spergs out if any one of them is missing.

>>52715335
tr0oth

>>52720119
A few months back, my group and I were talking about running a cyberpunk campaign. He wanted to do Shadowrun (surprise surprise) but he's a shit GM, so the rest of us voted on GitS. He hadn't heard of GitS before we mentioned it, so I loaned him a copy of the 1995 movie and mistakenly told him it's my favorite cyberpunk setting. He said it was a good movie and all, but definitely not cyberpunk and he spent an hour or so telling me exactly why (can't say I was really paying attention though; he lost me at "GitS isn't cyberpunk").

On a side note, what did you guys think of the ScarJo movie?

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>>52725440
Infinity would probably be your best bet. I haven't played it though, so I can't speak to how good it is.
http://infinitythegame.com/

>>52725764
i´m looking for a RPG not a wargame.

i allready play to infinity and i´m looking for run a rpg using my minis

>>52701562

Because it's dead.

You see, cyberpunk as a literary movement was about THOSE fears about the future (and some hopes) in THOSE years.

Now we're way past that. On one side of the coin, we kinda didn't fuck the planet (I mean, not at the levels they tought inevitable, at least), people don't starve in the streets, governements didn't strip our rights, no third world war as of now.
On the other side, you know what cyberpunk was about? Rebels against the system, or at the very least resisting the corps.

But you're probably reading me through an android device, possibly done by a korean multinational with more money than many african nations, so you can see how it ended.

Cyberpunk isn't really dead because tech marched on (tough yeah, that aesthetic is absolutely unthinkable); it's dead because not only the corps won big time, but we don't think it's that bad (myself included, I'm not doing a lecture here, just stating why it's dead and will stay dead).

>also GITS isn't really cyberpunk. It's cyber alright, but it's everything but "fuck the estabilishment". Hell, it's EXACTLY the contrary, it's about protecting the estabilishment and BEING the estabilishment. The interesting fact is that the manga is satyrical as fuck of society at the same time. But oshiifags wouldn't know that.

>>52725818
Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun are both pretty good. Although, if you do Shadowrun, make sure you're running one of the newer editions; the older ones were crunchy in the extreme.

>>52725932
I like 4th of 5th personally. I'm kinda salty that they stepped back from the wireless world and tried to go back to cables and such. I liked that SR4 was embracing growing technologies and fears of the real world.

>>52725818
Infinity again though it uses abstract range, so the minis are just decoration.

Interface Zero 2.0 is probably your best bet, given that SavWorlds is a wargame system turned into an RPG.

>>52725688
I remember hearing that it didn't quite get the source material, much like GitS '95.. It can't possibly be as bad an adaptation as the Aeon Flux movie.

>>52725907
It's dead because the authoritarians won. A punk in the 80s would be horrified by the anesthetized youth of the aughts.

Somewhere along the line a generation of people decided there was too much to lose if civil society went down the tubes. Cyberpunk did not anticipate just in time globalism and the damage it did to independent states. Now every urban center around the world is permanently four days away from utter chaos due to starvation. Corporations have a gun to the heads of every government worldwide with these supply and inventory shenanigans. Look what happened to Venezuela after Maduro pissed off his local businessmen.

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>>52725818
It'll have its own RPG soon, runned by Modiphius.

But since its just a mish-mash of 80s cyberpunk animes with a bit of "modernized" aesthetic, Cyberpunk 2020 will worked greatly.

>>52726043

Possibly. Personally I'm thinking more about the corp-tech angle. We like pervasive tech and don't think thinkering with is worth the effort.

But in general I'm less pessimistic than you.

(funnily enough I was realizing that in a sense we're a little more optimistic about technology than we've been in recent decades. Perhaps up to 60s)

>>52726051
>>52725932
Niggas did you read the bit where he said he wanted one that used minis?

>>52718558
Any suggestions for how a cyberpunk individual could practically benefit from a USB parking lot strike?
Seems like it would be a fun experiment and opportunity for some irl rping.

Maybe use it to get security/loss prevention shift schedules from a store and then walk out with merchandise when you know the coast is clear?

>>52726124
I use minis in my 2020s campaign

>>52726124
Did you read that bit where he said he wanted an RPG?

>>52726432
Yes, he said he wanted an RPG that used miniatures. That's Interface Zero, not CP2020 or SR.

>>52701562
it's fairly difficult to game with genres whose moods require you to be powerless, in general. Horror is a very niche gaming genre for the same reason, really. People end up playing cyberpunk games where you're an all-powerful whatever tackling whatever with the spirit of adventure, but at that point there's very little actual weight given to the genre. And getting players to accept the fact that they cannot approach situations as if they're an adventure is a very difficult thing.

Here's how to make Cyberpunk work today, with the retro feel, no problem.

As far as fashion goes, that goes through cycles regularly, don't sweat that part.

Which brings us to the tech.
The computer I'm writing this on is unbelievably fast compared to what the writers of the time imagined, it's clean, it's quick. In a couple of years, I'll probably driving a VR interface (if that doesn't end up sucking)

Not very punk.

Here's the thing. That computer? It's CPU has a second computer in it that Intel can make do things. In order to function with todays tech, the amount of corporate (and government) trust you've got to have is huge, and unless you're a corporation (or government), there's no chance you can audit it.

You're trusting Intel/AMD
Whoever owns the factory the system board/cpus was assembled at
Apple/HP/Toshiba
Probably Microsoft/Apple
Every certificate authority your browser trusts.

If you wanted to rebel, you aren't going to do it on a macbook pro. Not gonna happen on a surface - most of our computers ship cryptographically locked to their operating systems (look at your phone).

So you've got corporate runners, with the latest and greatest, and if you live in a world where they can send a wetwork team if you get annoying, you're not going to trust that you're gear isn't gonna get you killed or worse.

So, youre phone, your rig? You (or someone you trust with your life) built it, it's slower than the corporate rigs, heavier. Might even look like a VHS deck (I don't want know the process size for something like this - http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-Semiconductor-Manufacturing/)

My point is, the Cyberpunk future didn't happen as advertised because 1) things haven't gotten that bad, yet and 2) Most of us are owned by the corps.

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>>52701562
Cyberpunk? It's trademarked.

http://www.worldtrademarkreview.com/Blog/detail.aspx?g=7301168d-8d89-47d6-bd42-30844a0f542c

We all cryptopunks now.

>>52727889

That's the most ironic fate a word could ever fall on.

>>52727985
What about "literally"?

>>52725688

Honestly? If I had not gone over Ghost in the Shell's media in general during the last few years, I probably would have given it a 8/10, possibly a 9/10. The movie is really well shot as well as properly structured, the script is also very great. Whitewashing... honestly, while having an asian actress for Motoko would've been better, Johansson does her job quite well.

Unfortunately, I have read the original.

Even though it stays really close to the source material, the issue is the obviousness of some questions, and missing others entirely - which are in and of themselves the soul of Ghost in the Shell as a work (especially as a cyperpunk piece of media).

Don't get me wrong, it's a great movie and probably one of the best anime live action adaptation's I've seen. But it pales in comparison to its source material.

>>52726043
It's more that Venezuela was in a downward spiral since a few years and Maduro decided to do all the wrong actions. He didn't even piss off the local businessmen - Venezuela's main money source was the government's own operations. When it was badly administrated, suddenly people didn't quite manage to get what they needed and it all started going down the drain.

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>>52729179
> If I had not gone over Ghost in the Shell's media in general during the last few years, I probably would have given it a 8/10, possibly a 9/10

As someone who's never watched the anime or had any real interest in it I have to say I actually didn't like this movie that much. It was boring, predictable fast food entertainment. It reminded me a lot of Tron: Legacy. It looks and sounds pretty but that's basically it. What little depth you could find was just clumsy attempts at themes other, much better movies handled far more intelligently. I know expecting another Tears In Rain moment is unfair but this movie felt more like it was just paying lip service to its themes on AI and trans-humanism rather than earnestly playing with them.

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>>52729480
Spot on analysis with a spot on image and filename. Nice work.

>>52725818
skip the shit tier RPG and just add a state for charisma and intelligence
>>52726016
it does not use abstract ranges, but it uses range bands which determine the weapons optimal firing range

>>52729480
Fair enough, I guess. Honestly I enjoyed it more than other movies, but that might be just me.

That said, the manga handles the same themes (and many more) much better with notes by the author on philosophy. It's a great read.

And I'm judging this work from what it is - it's attempting to be a Hollywood blockbuster of an anime adaptation, I was expecting much much worse, so I guess my expectations are skewed because of that.

>>52729539
>it does not use abstract ranges,
The RPG does.

>>52729179
>probably one of the best anime live action adaptation's I've seen
I'm sorry to hear that, anon.

>Even though it stays really close to the source material
I think there's a difference between "staying close to the source material", and "aping the visual elements of the source material". Everything they copied was only skin deep; no meat or bones to prop it up next to the material it was taken from. So when they started changing and adding to that, all you're left with is some predictable, intellectually uninvolved, but very pretty visuals.

>Whitewashing
Doesn't even come into why the movie was a poor effort, imo. People really got irked by it, but it's a fake controversy.

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>>52725688
I thought it was surprisingly on-point, given Hollywood's usual treatment of anime. As a heads-up, I've only seen the 1995 movie and S.A.C., haven't read the manga, seen the other movies, or seen Arise. I found the whole mind manipulation angle to be a unique and interesting way to approach the setting. GitS has always dealt with the crisis of identity in an increasingly impersonal world, but we've never seen it applied to the Major in quite this way though. In past incarnations, she may have questioned her identity, but never to the point of being mind-hacked into thinking she was a completely different person from who she really was. This also led to some interesting things in the story, like how she's always giving consent with a name that isn't really hers, meaning that, from a legal standpoint, she was never giving consent in the first place. I also found the scenes with Motoko's mother to be very poignant and well-done.

Does the movie have problems? Definitely. Is it as good as the source material? Nope. But it does good enough that I think it can stand on it's own merits. I think the main reason for all the bad reviews is that people went in wanting/expecting a slow, thoughtful movie like the 1995 one, which is something it was never going to be, primarily because it wouldn't have been able to make its budget back. The 1995 movie made roughly $2.3 million, which translates to roughly $3.6 million in 2017. The 2017 movie had a budget of $110 million. It was going to have to be an action-thriller to make that back.

>>52729179
>Whitewashing
You'll notice that most of the people complaining about this aren't familiar with the source material, and are just assuming that because she has a Japanese name, she has to be asian. IIRC in every incarnation, Motoko's and most of the other characters ethnicity is left intentionally ambiguous.

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>>52731140
>people went in wanting/expecting a slow, thoughtful movie like the 1995 one
A movie doesn't have to be slow or introspective to be well thought out. You might consider certain scenes poignant; I felt they were overdone and out of place - that generally the movie failed to grasp any underlying ideas present in earlier works and replaced them with generic hollywood schlock tropes. The garbage truck driver's death vs living with the loss of his real memories was particularly disappointing as a pointless minor change.

> IIRC in every incarnation, Motoko's and most of the other characters ethnicity is left intentionally ambiguous.
Not consistently. Western faces in the manga are explicitly different from standard facial features.

>>52725907
plenty of people starve in the streets. It just doesn't really make the news. Or they are sent to jail first.

>>52725932
I swear by shadowrun. If you strip out the magic it still works just fine. Keep the magic in and you have one of the best American RPG settings ever imho.

>>52725932
>if you do Shadowrun, make sure you're running one of the newer editions; the older ones were crunchy in the extreme.
This is the exact opposite of the truth. 1e and 2e are the lightest SR editions.

>>52726159
That works. But its not really about making money. Its about taking money.

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>>52731590
>The garbage truck driver's death vs living with the loss of his real memories was particularly disappointing as a pointless minor change.
I will agree with you here. I think that it would have been more effective if they showed him the picture with him and the dog and the ad that the image for his wife was lifted from. Or, if they didn't have time for that, just make him a different character with a different interrogation scene and make the chase scene the only thing lifted from the 1995 movie.

>Not consistently. Western faces in the manga are explicitly different from standard facial features.
I haven't read the manga (though I'd like to at some point), but in the 1995 movie, Motoko's nearly identical to the Puppetmaster, who is almost certainly caucasian.

That being said, GitS is a setting where superficial aspects like race and gender can be changed with relative ease, so complaining about anyone's ethnicity is ridiculous.

>>52725818
try out Nova Praxis?

>>52731871
>That being said, GitS is a setting where superficial aspects like race and gender can be changed with relative ease, so complaining about anyone's ethnicity is ridiculous.
This. One of the main themes of the whole GitS franchise is the dissolution of the body as a focal point for identity; you can look like whatever you want and therefore become a superficial image alienated from any heritage or native culture. Also, in the new movie, wasn't Motoko shown to be Asian before being put in the ScarJo cyborg body? That would be an almost ham-fisted commentary on how East Asian women try to make themselves look white and "whitewash" themselves, from cosmetics to outright plastic surgery. You'd think the SJWs would be all over that except that you wouldn't, because all they care about is finding things that look offensive at first glance without bothering to make a single inquiry into the context of the source material.

>>52732016
Oh come on. The preference for white skin is an Asian culture thing, they aren't trying to become whitey.

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>>52732117
I know preferring light skin is an almost universal cultural trait, I'm talking about actual plastic surgery to have more Caucasian-looking features. And even if you and I know Asian women trying to keep their skin light isn't part of trying to look "White," Western cultural commentators don't, which is why I pointed out it was almost too obvious the writers were trying to make a commentary on something the Western media has made a big deal of before. Yet it still went over the SJWs' heads.

>>52701562
Because cyberpunk is grounded in reality and as such requires a lot of research to be believable.

Space Opera is basically just fantasy in space which makes it much easier to write about.

Both of them get equally mistreated though.

>>52701580
Space opera is the limited genre. Just look at Star Wars.
There's very little that can be done with it beyond "the prophecy" or "an ancient evil awakens".

Dune may be the only example of a space opera that managed to escape falling into fantasy cliché, but that's because Frank Herbert actually was a good writer who didn't let himself be limited by stupid genre conventions.

Cyberpunk on the other hand has a lot of literary potential but there are few authors who manage to provide the quality needed.

Arguably the lines between cyberpunk and dystopia are fairly blurred. Blade Runner is the prime example for cyperpunk done right, yet it was never part of the cyberpunk movement.

You could make an argument that Philip K. Dick is the actual father of Cyberpunk, rather than William Gibson.

A Clockwork Orange is very similar too, yet also came well before the movement.

Even Metropolis has a lot of similarities.

>>52703563
>>52704220
Stop posting, please. It's embarrassing.

>>52709616
Basically this.

Cyberpunk is just a fancy name for dystopia that takes cues from film noir.

>>52714036
Yeah, let's just ignore how Nestle keeps buying the worlds drinking water supplies.
Or how Apple somehow manages to transform masses of people into drooling consumer zombies every time they release a new device.

>>52731871
>in the 1995 movie, Motoko's nearly identical to the Puppetmaster, who is almost certainly caucasian.
Manga almost always have noticeable differences between Japanese/"regular" people and outsiders that anime rarely ever details.
Using the anime as a benchmark is sorta silly.

>>52732181
The classic asiatic eyelid is commonly seen as rural or bumpkin, especially in Korea.
It's like a Chinese man keeping the long topknot well into the 20th century.

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>>52732382
Except that instead of a hairstyle or fashion, it's a characteristic of their racial biology. Pic related might be a better example of how Kpop stars try to look like American bimbos.

>>52732181
>>52732366
>>52732382
>>52732551
[autistic weeaboo screeching]

>>52732604
k.

>>52732551
the eyelid procedure is pretty tame, it's about as extreme as an ear piercing. that old haircut is so bad what the fuck

>>52732633
The point is that they're viewing traits of their own race as ugly and trying to emulate those of others, specifically the West. I'm not claiming or trying to argue that that's a bad thing; my original claim was that the movie was clearly trying to comment on this phenomenon, and that it's the kind of thing SJWs in theory should love. Whether you think it's perfectly fine, or not nearly as prevalent as the media claims, the fact is that it's something the liberal media has made a big shit over for a while, and that's all that matters to what is or isn't obviously intended to be commentary in a Western movie.

>>52726159

It basically installs a backdoor into a system so you can just waltz on in, browse about, take what you want, and leave.

It's about information, maybe money, and using this information in far more complex ways than just stealing store merchandise. Selling information to corporate competitors. Gaining knowledge.

And as for your lost prevention shift schedules, you think too small: change the loss prevention shifts to give you a window; and then remove security logs from the system after.

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>>52732604

>I don't know what I'm talking about so I've resorted to ad hominems

>>52701562
THE space opera, star wars, ran off the monomyth, recurring motifs and stories told and retold through the ages, by cultures who never interacted which other
farmboy becomes hero is a powerful tale that transcend time and space and resonates deeply within all of us, and really will be fare more popular if you can pull it off

likewise star trek was heavily based of the political climate of the time, something everyone could relate to, but by setting it in space, you could distance people from real world politics and just run with our characters, and many of the problems they chose are fairly timeless or are easily adapted to changes in real world politics

these two practically defined science fiction, and created a whole slew of followers

cyberpunk tends to be set on earth, and its most famous examples, blade runner and robocop, are very adult, not having the same universal appeal of star wars

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>>52732850
>rants about what eyelids of asian bimbos look like or what race the protagonist in a terrible hollywood anime adaption is
>calls others shitposters

>>52732953

I'm not even that guy, though. You're just a shit.

>>52727889
I get that understanding trademark law isn't "punk" but do yourself a favour and brush up on it anyway.

>>52710133
Another perspective is that the ability to hack becomes one of the basic competencies of PCs and the hacker is an expert equal when street sam is in combat.

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The quick answer is space opera is more versatile and fun. There is more you can do with it, period. The setting and range of sci-fi and magic use is completely up to the story teller. Pretty much nothing is off limits.

Cyber punk (which is the best setting for anything) at least in its purest forms is strict. There are more rules and limits. As far as the types of stories are concerned, they are almost always more mature. They force the listener/viewer/player to think about shit that isn't necessarily very "fun" in the most conventional sense of the word. Existential shit. Philosophy of identity or knowledge. Heavier shit. Most people don't want to have to think about their entertainment. The setting is our world but shittier which is depressing. It holds up a mirror to the current world and says "here is where you're headed" and people don't like that. It's cynical.

Tl;dr
Space opera is whimsical and open.
Cyberpunk is cynical and limited.

>>52733063
[autistic weeaboo screeching intensifies]

>>52732551
>>52732953

>bimbos
>literally just women

>>52701562
Because we're reaching the point where the world is cyberpunk. It's not a genre anymore, it's just contemporary fiction.

>>52731740
>1e is rules light
1e is only rules light in that it's completely unplayable by RAW
No edition of shadowrun counts as rules light, at all, period and the idea that 2e is lighter when it has even more fiddly little rules than even 3e is questionable at best.

>>52734509
Where are you getting this 'rules light' thing from?

>>52732344
Did I ever say they that we didn't have to worry? No, I just said that it hadn't happened yet, not that it would never happen.

>>52725932
They're all stupidly overloaded with rules.
5 has the best rules, but it's still convoluted.
It has shit fluff though.

4 is not Shadowrun.

>>52733407
Don't be an autistic faggot.

Too late.

>>52735173
Rude.

>>52734202
>bimbo
>ˈbJmbəʊ/
>noun: bimbo; plural noun: bimbos
>An attractive but unintelligent or frivolous young woman.

Sounds like a perfect fit for someone willing to get surgery on their freaking eyelids to look more like an imaginary ideal.

>>52731140 #
> IIRC in every incarnation, Motoko's and most of the other characters ethnicity is left intentionally ambiguous.

Isn't it explicit that Motoko's body appearance is based on a european sex doll model, so that it makes perfect sense for her to look caucasian rather than asian?

>>52725688
GitS is cyberpunk only if we speak of general genres. If we go more specific, then it's obviously post-cyberpunk.

>>52725932
The 5th edition of SR is twice as thick as the 1st edition, and it's like 98% of rules and charts. So much for it being less crunchy.

>>52726159
Getting your cyberbrain hacked while relaxing in a VR downloaded from the Pirate's Cove BBS.

>>52735857
>If we go more specific, then it's obviously post-cyberpunk.
Post-Cyberpunk being defined by technology that's slightly less dated looking is retarded shit and I blame the cogfops for this shallow nonsense.

>>52735914
It's not defined by that at all.

>>52735914
Calling anything post-cyberpunk in general is pretty stupid to begin with.

It's just a dumb label invented by hipster writers to pretend they're better than their predecessors.

>>52735914
>>52736854
Post-cyberpunk is the answer to people who have an overly narrow conception of what cyberpunk is.