Warmachine/Hordes General

>>52686235
New CID when?

>>52686589
19th

New edition when?

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Picture is all the models I own

So I am trying to figure out what jacks I should expand into/ stuff I need to get. I am considering the new battlebox, although I am not exactly sure if that is a great move, especially since I do not really want Malkeus.

Casters I plan on having are:
Kreoss 1-3
Reznik 1-2
Sevirus 1-2
Durst
Tristan 2
Reclaimer 1-2
Harbinger

I know for sure I need Fires of salvation, but what is a good next purchase?

>>52688228
Each edition seems to last 7 years, so come back then.

A lot better than GW changing editions every few years

>>52688228
M3 is the best edition yet retarded aos shill

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So if you could change anything rule wise about your faction or the game as a whole what would it be?

>>52688426
Storm Lances, probably.

>>52688426
Maybe a limit on power up?
I mean, I don't want to go back to mk2 loljacks again, but hell.

>>52688340
>namefag
>projecting this hard
>calling other people retards

>>52688426
Fucking everything.

>>52688312
Of course it's a lot better. While I end up shelving some models between editions, it's not like GW where you are literally forced to buy new models because your old ones are no longer legal themselves, have illegal wargear options, or do not follow proper WYSWIG rules.

>>52688426
Have sprays only require the initial target to be in LoS. Then we can get rid of this whole immersion breaking crap where a model 3" inside a forest is hit, but everything else downstream is totally fine despite sprays ignoring walls and other forms of cover. Something like a house, obstacle, or structure, I can see.

>>52689789

you don't need LOS to spray any model other than the one you're, it's just that you can't spray completely through a forest or a building.

>>52689887

*you're targeting

apparently I had a stroke half way through that post

>>52689545
>replying to ad hominem with ad hominem
>replying to "suggest a constructive rules change" with "SCRAP THE GAME ITS SHIT"
Real hot contributions towards a productive discussion there, eh

>>52688426
Rework Cygnar read: Haley2, Storm Lances and a couple of friends in such a way that they aren't guaranteed starting board control and a devastating alpha against every goddam list

>>52689887
That's my issue though. I can understand not being able to spray through a building because it's large, solid, and there's no room for stuff like fire to lap around. But a couple of trees should not protect you from getting roasted like the heathen you are.

tl;dr I hate playing against Wormwood and I can't seem to beat him with my Amon/High Reclaimer pair. Really wish I could just burn his stupid feat to the ground.

>>52689931
Best thing to do with a wreckage is scrap it. You can try fixing the dents, the wheels, try adding decals, but nothing's gonna change the fact that the ride smacked itself into a ditch. The entire thing is too slapped on and each "fix" is yet another paint job fix on a wrecked vehicle.

The whole game needs a skorne tier fix and at that point, you might as well trade in. It doesn't help that PP has no way to manage CID well, considering they can't even maintain the forums. Sure, pagani is there, but he's but one man.

The fact that the only discussion worth having are rule changes is an indicator for how fundamentally messed up things are at a base level and everything ties to everything else.

>>52688229
Severius 1 is always agood starting point.
A Redemmer and especially at least one Reckoner and Devout are a must. For Units the Flavor of the Edition ared Idrians with UA. If you want good support for cheap with two shield guards take the visgoth Roven unit.
If you take Sevi1 please get Blessing of Vengeance for him. Its more or less an autoinclude with this caster. Malekus is also quite good if you have flame weapons. Also for solos: get vassal mechanics and vassals of menoth also the covenant and the monks are good too.

>>52688426
Nerf Journeyman and Haley2.

Give a slight buff to some of Cryx's infantry, and to a large number of non-Khador warjacks/warbeasts, to make large base lists even more viable for factions that don't have Harkevich.

Literally everything else is fine.

>>52688426
I'd remove those 2 pages of terain LoS rules and replace them with a single sentence aong the lines of "terrain blocks LoS as if it were a model of a specified base size". I hate this goddamn mess of an existing rule with a passion, mostl because it is NEVER used.

>>52690096
It's not just a couple of trees tho. it's a Dark Forest of Evil Trees. Probably stout Oak, the kind they made warships out of. After breaking upon the rocks of a couple of nature's mightiest guardians perhaps your puny flame should go out! :D

>>52690118
this post is so far from reality it's crazy. Is all this anti PP shit posting done by one guy?

>>52690879
>Is all this anti PP shit posting done by one guy?
For as much as I dislike that kind of paranoia, you are probably right. The timeframes, the posting styles, it all just fits too well.

It seems somebody's plan to move to Guildball or whatever didn't work out. I wonder if it's the same guy that basicaly posted his agenda of ""overthrowing"" PP on the new forums.

>>52690879
It's very obviously one guy.

There's only ever one of them at once. They have all the same retarded, insane arguments. They have all the same responses to being rebuffed or disproven.

There's no real question that it's all the same dude. The real question is where he came from. Is he an AoShitter who got buttfurious when he saw the recent sales figures that put Warmachine above AoS? Is he a Cryxbabby who is gravely insulted by the idea that he'll have to use his brain this edition? Is he an indignant Infernal who can't handle the sinking of the only place where people listen to him? This we can never know.

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Koslov looks like fun. That said, fuck these new battlebox plastics, the injection and mold lines are a god damn nightmare.

>>52691068
Well, it must not be me then because I don't even know/care/play AOS. There must be more people then. Although given how slow these things move there might only be handful of people total left.

I didn't play cryx, nor did I start a new game beyond shadow war Armageddon last week.

Chill. It's ok to cling to shitty things, just don't delude yourselves into believing that what you are clinging onto isn't problematic at best.

>>52691165
They aren't new. They just have dyes in them

>>52691192
>but your gameis probelatic!!!

Then go play Armageddon. Or talk about Armageddon. Or jack of to Armageddon. I don't give a shit. You will be happier there and we will be happier once you are gone.

>>52691214
Fair enough. I haven't started a new army since Mk I so all I remember are their old shitty pewter.

>>52688229

Get Idrians and UA.

Get two Redeemers to go with Tristan.

Get a Reckoner.

With those added to what you've got, you'll have a lot of options open up. The Reckoner is the default warjack for most casters, and the Tristan boat (him + 2 Redeemers) works well with just about anything. Idrians are one of the (if not *the*) best non-cavalry infantry unit in the game.

>>52690096
How are you playing Amon? I tend to mulch him with Amon since I can stop basically all of his spells, and counter-feating and trampling through his feat, while not negating it, does reduce its potency.

>>52691496
He runs mannekins up, uses hellmouth on my jacks to group them all together, and basically whittles down my lights a little bit at a time or just assassinates Amon. It might just be my list though. What kind of list are you running?

>>52691234
I do. Rarely. And no, I will not be happier there, nor will you be any happier. Apparently there's more than me so you'll have to deal with those.

>>52691243
Yeah, the lack of the khador gap was a welcome change. It's back on their resin models, so have fun with that.

>>52691068
If it's the same guy as a few weeks ago, he was the same guild ball shitter.

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>>52691534

I found I was initially concerned about the Woldwyrds, but with two shield guards they don't do as much damage as you might think.

>>52691565
Haven't played GB since season 1. Although I hear it's pretty good now.

Also new teams on horizon.

>>52691590
The list I run up against doesn't have Woldwyrds. He runs this:

https://conflictchamber.com/#bo1b5v5K4Q4MdH4kbF0U5e5e5f5f

Circle Army - 75 / 75 points

!!! Your army must include a Steamroller objective.

(Wurmwood 1) Wurmwood, Tree of Fate [+27]
- Ghetorix [21]
- Megalith [20]
- Pureblood Warpwolf [17]
Gobber Tinker [2]
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4]
Wrong Eye [17]
Farrow Bone Grinders (min) [5]
Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5]
Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5]
Shifting Stones [3]
Shifting Stones [3]

is the Khador Command Book up yet?

>>52691953
Wurmwood becomes a lot less scary to Amon without Woldwyrds, since he can't punish you for using Fortify against his Hellmouths.

What are you running?

>>52692040
https://conflictchamber.com/#b21b_-0d171S1S1U1U1q1q1q1q1r1L3C3t3t3z3z3B3B2_30

Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Creator's Might

(Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29]
- Castigator [12]
- Castigator [12]
- Crusader [10]
- Crusader [10]
- Dervish [7]
- Dervish [7]
- Dervish [7]
- Dervish [7]
- Devout [9]
- Vigilant [9]
The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Wrack [1]
Wrack [1]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Choir of Menoth (max) [6]

I might just be bad at the game. What is your fortify target? The Indicter?

https://conflictchamber.com/#b51b0G4E0w3y3y3y4L0w4k752V31

Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points

(Kaelyssa 1) Kaelyssa, the Night's Whisper [+29]
- Banshee [18]
- Hydra [15]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
House Shyeel Artificer [5]
- Hydra [15]
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19]
Dawnguard Sentinels (max) [18]
- Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard [4]

I want to mix up my Kaelyssa list and was thinking of something along the lines of this one. Can I get any feedback on it?

>>52692098
The Indicter is typically the Fortify target, yeah -- moves it up to ARM 23, and Sacred Ward on it protects it from spells even when I switch to the choirboys singing Battle.

I periodically consider swapping it out for a third Templar to get the extra Shield Guard and another jack with the extra inch of threat, but overall I'm pretty happy with my Amon list.

And I'd suggest trying him with an 8+ heavy list at least once (I mean, at least proxy it once....). I strongly prefer stacking heavies, as there's a lot of stuff that can do significant damage to a Dervish that will do a fraction of the damage to a Crusader (or Templar, or Indicter), and thus is usually harder to be "whittled down".

That Wurmwood list has a lot of heavies that can't quite kill two Crusaders a turn, and no (reliable) way to move them outside of retaliation range. I think the full heavy version would do a lot better.

I might be wrong, but I think a large reason why this community is shrinking is that tabletop gamers like options.
This game doesn't allow for any of that beyond paint scheme.
Players really want to make their armies unique and you simply can't do that in WMH.

>>52692594
Rather interesting.

I've always wondered, is the Hydra + Phantom Seeker thing actually good?

>>52693184
I've killed Iron mom with it before, so if your opponent forgets about it, it can be good

>>52688426

Remove Belphagore from Bethayne and make him a normal character beast with a Bond for Bethayne that grants the Metamorphosis effect. Then give him a spray or combo strike or some reason to exist.

>>52690998
>>52691565

The weird thing is Guidball is right up there with Arena Rex when it comes to a side wargame since you get can get a handful of models and be "done" with it.

There's no reason for there to even be a fight in the first place.

>>52693231
Huh. I guess the Hydra does have some use, then.

I wish there was a way to make it function better without Kaelyssa. It's actually my favourite looking Ret warjack.

>>52693380
Well you could go with the jack marshal build like I did. Load it up with 3 focus that it keeps between turns, when you want to attack Lanyssa or someone like Thyron allows it to charge for free, you use concentrated power to give it +2 melee damage, and you choose Crush as the marshal ability. All that shit results in a P+S19 warjack with 3 attacks and 3 focus, you can also use smash and grab to headbutt if you need a bit more damage.

>>52692981
I'll give it a go then next Wednesday at my club night. Thanks man.

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>>52693045
That didn't stop mkii's success. mkiii was just poorly done at every level by the people in charge. It's going to approach its first year soon and it's still playing catchup to what it needed to be.

>>52693045
Nice try. We've been recovering for a few months now.

I'm almost glad the Mk3 launch was so terrible. It weeded out a bunch of shitheads.

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>mfw the troll has to reply to himself out of desperation

This is the best shit.

I never want this guy to leave, his one-man crusade against Warmahordes is top tier quality.

>>52693366
>There's no reason for there to even be a fight in the first place.
Precisely. I'm happy for the actual GB players, they seem to be having a lot of fun with their game. Not my cup of tea, but who cares. It's the shitposters who think that GB is their super sekrit elit club that are a blight upon both communities.

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>got my trollbloods whelps today
>5 models
>only came with 3 bases
This doesn't seem right

>>52694190
2 are meant to go on your Mountain King ;^)

>>52694190
PP parts replacement is really excellent though. send them an email and they'll sort this out for you.

>>52694190
Sounds like a mispack. You can either go through parts replacement or ask around for bases. There's usually at least 1-2 players in any given community who own a shitton of spare bases. I know because I am that player.

>(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Tiberion [22]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Tyrant Rhadeim [9]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]
Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13]
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]

>(Mordikaar 1) Void Seer Mordikaar [+29]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Cyclops Shaman [8]
- Despoiler [19]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Void Spirit [4]
Void Spirit [4]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]
Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13]
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4]

Reminder of the glory of the Skorne.

>>52691165
Mine turned out really well! My northkin shaman was sort of a mess though

Grymkin will dominate ? Go !

>>52695596
They'll more or less do the equivalent of a pubstomp. People who've played them before or have experience in general will be fine. But newer players, or those who haven't played them will get faced with "gotchas".

>>52695596
They'll kill people who don't have their pairings set up to deal with either a Neighslayer/Dreadrot spam or Piggyback jam. The only warlock they have that's really a headache is the Heretic, the rest have answers that you can play into. Once you learn how to bait Arcana to where they do nothing until you've done what you want to do, or make your opponent eat through clock, they just become annoyances. Time will tell if the good stuff in the faction is enough but right now they seem like a flash in the pan.

>>52694091
No one is samefagging

>>52694091
Also have a (you) since these generals are so fucking slow

>>52688229
Been playing Menoth since Mk1, so hopefully this helps.

The new battlebox isn't that great, honestly, especially if you don't want Malekus. Repenters and Castigators are just bad (the former being gutted by Choir no longer providing hit buffs and the latter by virtue of not being able to Combust on charge) and Revengers are usually lacklustre. Only casters who really want arc nodes (both Seves) are better suited by Blessing of Vengeance.

Get Idrians with their UA. They are currently the best unit PoM has and see frequent play with most casters. Second unit choice should be the 3-man character unit Visgoth Rhoven. Learn to love them, even if you don't really need Eyeless Sight. The unit is good because of two extremely good Shield Guards, not because of Rhoven himself.

As for jacks, Reckoner and 1-2 Redeemers are a must. As odd as it seems Redeemers are one of the better anti-armour choices, since with choir buff and full load of focus (from Tristan) they will scrap heavies doing three boosted POW14 hits each. The problem is getting them to hit, but Reckoner + Aiming will get you up to RAT5, which is enough to hit Khadoran steel on 5+.

As for solos, Wracks and Hierophant. They'll have their place in most of the lists you make in the future. Allegiants of the Order of the Fists are also extremely good right now, being very self-sufficient and hard to remove. That makes them perfect zone holders in the current SR.

>>52696562
>Been playing Menoth
>since Mk1
IT'S PROTECTORATE REEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>52693045
What about all those people who make fluff-accurate marine chapters?

>>52693045
I think warmachine suffers from MtG syndrome. It's highly competative and no one wants to loose so the best meta gets figured out quickly and if you want to go big in torunament you just have to fallow it.

>>52698089

They are few and far between and playing 30k the obscure version of 40k no one plays.

I need to buy a token set. Muse on Minis, Broken Egg, or some other option?

>>52690138
>>52691462
>>52696562
Alright I think my next purchase then will be tristan 2, if only to give me a different playstyle while I buy the reckoner and redeemers.

Any other jacks that are good to have multiple of then?

>>52698122
And like MtG, it's best played in small, casual groups where the meta is less vicious, instead of at big organised events.

>>52693045
A good modeler/devoted fa/tg/uy uses green stuff to do up his models to look differently. While the warcasters are named characters, there is nothing stopping you from making the infantry and jacks your dudes.

For instance your unit of stormblades without the UA is lead by Sergeant Simms, a noble who is working his way up the ranks.

Paladin Dominus has gained much honor by taking down one of Cygnar's warcasters, while he never got the killing blow, his heroic strike against General Nemo won the battle of the black river.

Topper the Grolar warjack has lot of affection by the warcasters who use it. It gets so excited when it has won the field of battle it unbalances itself and falls over. The dings and dents are just seen as a side effect of a powerful warjack.

Make of this game what you can, there is nothing stopping you making it about your dudes besides lack of imagination.

>>52699549
Hving used Muse tokens for most of Mk2, I have to say: Go with standard PP or selfmade tokens. It's more flexible and you have to carry less stuff around. And you don't have to buy new tokens everytime something in the game changes or is released.

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So the BANE CID is starting in two weeks. What can we do to help warriors, knights and riders?

>>52701498
It would be very painful.

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Eyes on Trollbloods: Pupils or no pupils?

>>52701303
I use the Muse tokens, and like them, although honestly they're not a huge upgrade over the PP ones.

I had a set of the Broken Egg tokens. My review of them is "fuck Broken Egg".

- They came with the really fucking obnoxious backing material still stuck to the acrylic, which I had to peel off of every goddamn token before playing with them (Muse tokens do not come this way), and it was stuck on in such a way I could either chip the tokens using something like a hobby knife to get the things started or shred my fingernails to get the fucking things off.

- They're only printed on one side, and black on the other. The Muse tokens are two-sided. I found out that the Broken Egg tokens were one-sided when they arrived.

So, fuck them. Get the Muse stuff if you want fancy tokens, but don't be in a hurry to do so.

>>52701498
Do warriors need help anymore?

>>52701839
I just bought the muse stuff. DGI's $50 free shipping kicked in when I added a pack of those base stamps Jay so lovingly shilled at the beginning of the latest episode of Chain Attack.

Honestly, I'm too lazy to make my own tokens. Hell, I'm too lazy to finish my brickwork bases I've been working on, and the stamps sounded like a less time intensive procedure than laying the bricks on the base one at a time with modeling paste as mortar as I've been doing.

I'll still end up using the PP tokens for stuff like power up or journeyman focus just to have different looking tokens representing things.

>>52701923
>Do warriors need help anymore?
The Minifeat on the UA could do with being changed. It's not all that useful - most of the time if you're taking Bane Warriors, it's because you want to smack up Warjacks and Beasts, so a minifeat which encourages you to kill infantry (in an infantry-light meta) doesn't do a whole lot.

>>52701814
Cannonically, they have no pupils (or, rather, they do, they and the iris are just also white).

>>52701923
UA costs too much. 4 or 5

Why are they having a CID period for a few fucking units? Half of every faction needs a complete rework and they're focusing on 3 cunting units for a while?

>>52702988
fuck you

>>52703213
>Aww man I have to dust the Banes on my shelves AGAIN ;_____;

>>52702988
This is exactly why they won't do a Skorne-style overhaul for every faction. All it would do is open the door for autists worldwide to screech "why not this too!?" Little bitches cry about it every time their favorite models aren't at the top of the pile.

As for you, put on your big boy pants and remember that the majority of MK3 is in a good place.

>>52703298
>This is exactly why they won't do a Skorne-style overhaul for every faction.
Also it's a shitton of work to do right. And the playerbase also appreciates a certain level of stability, so chainging half of the models in the game at the same time is a bad idea for multiple reasons.

How is the Cygnar battlebox?

>>52703351
>Also it's a shitton of work to do right
Is it fuck. All you do is look at an underperforming unit, ask yourself what its job is, then nudge a number or two to help it do it. That's pretty much what they did to Skorne.

>Keltarii
They're designed to be an anti-shooting unit. So make them close the gap quicker with +1SPD.
>Swoosemen
They're supposed to be the go-to melee unit of the entire faction, but their MAT is garbage and they do no damage anyway. They were literally worse than Nihilators, and Nihilators aren't even supposed to be a go-to melee unit, so bring their MAT up to the "this thing is meant to hit" level, and change their mini feat to damage output.
>Ferox
Cost too many points, so bring them in line with every other heavy cavalry with -1PC.
>Handlers
All they did was bring them closer to what they were before they nerfed them into the ground in the first place.

It'd take a basement dwelling virgin like 20 minutes to produce a respectable half dozen or so changes to each faction.

>>52703733
>Nudges a number or two
>Has zero experience balancing a game system with hundreds of variables and no knowledge of upcoming releases that must also balance against existing models.
>Forgets to take diabetes medication
>Slips into coma, only commenting again when MK4 is released.

>>52703796
Yeah because I'm sure the company that made you fail a charge if your target was knocked down has poured over every possible interaction in the game to make sure that +1SPD to Keltarii is perfectly safe and does exactly what Keltarii need. Suck muh dick fagtron.

Since the black 13 unit has some of the characters with caine 3, can they be used together in a list?

>>52703879
Nope.

>>52703831
Doesn't that really confirm the concept? If a company that's devoted towards balancing and making the game work can fuck up, why would some random ass person convinced he knows best be able to make incredible changes without any issues?

>>52703892
We know that some things are complete shit. So what's the harm in bumping a number that helps them do their job?

>>52703899
Because it's very, very easy to bump them to the point that they are massively overpowered.

>>52703935
>HEY GUYS COME PLAY WITH MY SUPER SPECIAL UNIT I BALANCED MYSELF!!!! IT HAS 20 IN ALL OF ITS STATS. IT IS THE BEST BALANCED THING EVER!!!!!!!!

>>52703935
>NOOOO DON'T BRING THEM DOWN FROM 16 TO 15 POOOOIIIIINTSSSS
This is literally you.

>>52703899
So you want kneejerk balancing based on what some random retard thinks over incremental balance cycles? And you cannot see why that is stupid?

Two questions then, can Ace be taken for cane3 in a merc list or cygnar only?

Gunfighter, if you have a sword on the model and are in melee, can you attack with both the sword and gun as if you had 2 swords?

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>>52703831
>>52703899
>gets called out for being stupid
>refuses to wear big boy pants
>keeps posting

>>52704040
Cygnar only.

Even though you have gunfighter, you're still making a ranged attack, so you have to make one or the other. You either need an ability like Dual Attack that lets you make both or an ability like Point Blank that makes the gun a melee weapon to attack with both.

>>52704040
Ace is not a Mercenary model, thus he can only be incuded in a Mercenary list if either:
1) A theme force explicitly allows him.
2) A theme force is played with a Warcaster/Warlock that has a bond with that jack.

Since such a theme force currently doesn't exist, the answer is no.


A model can only ever make melee or ranged attacks during its combat action. Unless of course it has a rule stating otherwise.

>>52703991
A whelp with 20 on all stats will be fine. Don't strawman

>>52704031
>kneejerk balancing
It's been almost a fucking year you actual retard.

>>52704031
You have to see why the random retard had that impression. This is why I don't trust the CID. PP has to make a judgment and they don't have the man power or the skills to sift through and analyze the issues.

God, we are easily the most autistic out of all the /tg/ generals.

>>52704053
PPIDF is strong in this one

>>52704163
I estimate it will take at least 4-6 more months until the trolls get bored.

>>52704183
I've quit trolls 6 months ago

>>52704145
And we are still playing the game as it was released.Oh wait, we don't.

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Check out my insanely bad all gun mage list.

>>52704212
And it's still not good.

I'm not sure what point you are trying against him

>>52704212
Wow that comment had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that PP aren't balancing their game.

>>52703625
It has Maddox, a Lancer, a Firefly, and an Ironclad.

Maddox is playable. She's oddly similar to Stryker1, but has a more offense-oriented focus.

Lancers are rarely played.

Fireflies show up in a lot of lists because they buff the many other sources of lightning damage in a Cygnar list.

Ironclads are good for a lot of casters, and the kit that comes in the battlebox can be used with the upgrade kit to make Gallant (although, honestly, the base Ironclad is probably more useful to have).

It's a solid B+/A-. Only the Ret and Circle boxes are really better as a start to an army. If you're talking power vs. other battleboxes, it's fine, too, but not as good as Khador's.

>>52704254
That is indeed not very well constructed. It lacks any sort of focus.

>>52704270
>And it's still not good.
Speak for yourself. I'll head to a torunament in a few hours and have a bunch of fun with it. Like I had the last few times. If you cannot do that I am sorry. But then again I am not. You don't even play the game anyway.

>>52704271
That guy was complaining about PP not balancing every single model at once. I explained the obvious issues with that plan. Then he sperged. I hope this explanation amkes understanding that post chain easier.

Still no Khador command book?

>>52704163
/wmg/ has always been shit

>>52694303
That's not a Makeda! Anon, stop.

>>52691165
The Mk3 battleboxes were cancer, ya. Their older plastics are really really bad, but their newer mixed plastic and pewter sculpts seem much better, technically speaking. It doesn't help they get released seemingly haphazardly from when they were developed. I think the Desert Hydra was their first attempt at the new plastic kits in the vein of nu collossals and the grolar/kodiak kit? The quality is absolute garbage, and it was released almost side by side as Loki and his generation of sculpts, which are far better. The Forgeseer sculpt has me helpful working with their minis won't be such a fucking chore.

I put up with PP's mini quality when the company was newish and the games were smaller, but the continuing poor quality along with the scale of the game has kind of worn out its welcome. The Mammoth is a super good example of them just not giving a shit about designing something for playability or transport. Thing is fucking nightmare, and a nice mini isn't any fun if half it spends the majority of the game as a paperweight off to the side while you use a proxy base or its missing its magnetized head or something.

>>52704852
>That's not a Makeda! Anon, stop.
While I acknowledge her strength, I think Xerxis1 rolling every dice currently in my possession is stronger. Mordikaar just handles bullshit like incorporeal models or Rocketeer spam or Storm Lances better.

>>52704912
>Storm Lances
How does Mordikaar deal with them?

>>52704377
I've said this before. You can have fun with bad things. It's ok to like bad things. Madness lies in believing something is good purely because you like it.

>>52704927
Just throw Void Spirits at them. Lances can't touch them, and they can one shot the first with ease, and stand a good chance of killing another with the teleport. The Cannoneer or Shaman can safely go shoot one too.

>>52704927
>>52705023
Archidons are also very good against Lances. They're immune to their shooting, and can outthreat them with Rush.

>>52705283
They are, but I honestly think a pair of Void Spirits (maybe 3 of them ;^)) will do it better, and be better in more matchups. I'm not a fan of the 'don outside of casters who actually want to use Sprint like Makeda3 or Naaresh. It's good, but not a casual auto-include.

>>52705394
I think Mord runs them better himself in the sense that he can make them immune to free strikes, which can be mighty useful on a flying model. He might not personally benefit from Sprint, but the actual heavy does decent work under him.

>>52705420
But what can an Archidon do without any real support? Just because you're not taking free strikes doesn't mean you're getting any work done.

>>52705480
Killing support or lynchpin models and sprinting away, making an assassination run, or possibly getting lucky throws on heavies.

Under feat they're also very good at holding a zone and generally being in the way.

>>52705748
Everything they can do, Ferox can do better honestly. And a throw on a heavy is largely worthless when you have no follow up imo desu senpai. And don't forget the RNG14 Ghost Shot from the Shaman for picking off support. The 'don just feels a little redundant and underwhelming to me. Flying and Ghostly is a powerful combination, but not here.

What are some list building / gameplay tips for Naaresh 1? Just got him and would like some guidance.

>>52706910
>Blood tokens
Even if you transfer damage to a beast, your warlock is still considered to have taken damage, therefore you still get a blood token.
>Field Marshal: Pain Response
Attack him with a Handler, you automatically hit due to Flagellant, then transfer the damage to a beast to put Pain Response online automatically.
>Movement
The Tyrant Commander can give Naaresh +2" while full advancing. This applies while using Cyclone and Sprint, allowing Naaresh to move crazy distances around the battlefield. Charge 9", Cyclone 8", Sprint 8". That's 25 god damn inches in one activation. No one expects the downtown flag domination.
>Lamentation
Do NOT try and force this spell to be good. It's a great spell, but damn son you'll get yourself killed with that shit. Leave it on yourself since you basically upkeep for free, and forget about it. Sometimes it'll do something fun.
>List building
Blur helps dangerous infantry like Swordsmen+UA get across the field so they're a great inclusion. Also, fucking TITANS man. On feat turn they can kill just about anything, and nothing can kill them. Try not to fall too deep into the trap of spamming lights to try and make them hit like heavies for a turn.
>Fury
Since transferring damage away works out really well for Naaresh, you want to camp harder than most. The easiest way to do this is to bring Zaadesh along for the ride since he can cast your more intensive animi like Rush. This means the Gladiator won't benefit from your feat, but whatever man.

>Anon's sample list he pulled out of his ass
(Naaresh 1) Master Ascetic Naaresh [+32]
- Agonizer [6]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Cyclops Savage [7]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Tyrant Zaadesh [4]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13]
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4]
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer [6]

>>52707216
I should've put an Archidon in there. Take out the Savage and a Master Tormentor, throw in an Archidon and a Gobber Chef or something.

So I've always gotten the impression that Skorne are generally the least popular faction, but it feels like they're the most discussed faction on here. Funny how that works out.

>>52707286
4chan is nothing if not contrarians

>>52707286
Last Steamroller I went to was 4/16 Skorne.

>>52707216
>Field Marshal: Pain Response
>Attack him with a Handler, you automatically hit due to Flagellant, then transfer the damage to a beast to put Pain Response online automatically.
You can also use Praetorian Swordsmen, Bloodrunner Master Tormentors, and Bloodrunners to proc Pain Response easy.

>>52707286
Skorne are probably one of the two most popular Hordes factions.

>>52707372
That means they have to hang really far back and make full advances due to not being able to charge your stuff, THEN they're stuck behind your beasts. It's much easier to do it through Naaresh. T1 cast upkeeps, T2 start passing off Pain Responses. And don't forget that with Pain Reponse online, beasts can use tramples to move quickly in an arbitrary direction without paying fury.

I really wish Naaresh had just one more thing going for him. Maybe his WB points are underestimated. 32 is a big chunk more than the usual 28.

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Finished painting up my Trollbloods army for the moment. Don't have a Krielstone yet, but that's what I'm looking toward next.
Trollbloods Army - 22 / 25 points

(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
Troll Whelps [4]
Trollkin Fennblades (min) [9]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5]

Troll flesh is really fun to paint.

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I want to play Rahn's Roundear Pinball this weekend. Would this be decent?

>>52707216

>The Tyrant Commander can give Naaresh +2" while full advancing. This applies while using Cyclone and Sprint,

Fun fact, but +2 movement does not benefit during Sprint.

>>52708141

Disregard this. I was specifically thinking of the interaction of Escort with Sprint, which doesn't you the +2 movement because Escort specifically says it's only during normal movement. The Ty Comm ability has no restriction.

>>52708124
I guess.

Not sure why you want that Hydra in there. You've got mega doomer guns covered with Hyperion and the Manticore is far better at slicing things up.

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>>52708124
>Rahn without Discordia

I don't understand.

>>52708559
No Sentinels for Dissy to babysit, and there's nothing to cut for the three points to upgrade the Hydra.

>>52708528
Hydra's just in there because I'm trying to get myself to paint it up, and it's nice to give the Artificer a gunjack to chill with while he looks for Magno Blast openings. I suppose a Manticore and a Soulless on one mage unit would save me some painting time.

Battlecollege is telling me to give Kaya2 a Woldwatcher to keep her ass from dying, but I feel like this is inefficient for lower-point games. Could it work in a 25 or 30 point fight?

>>52709041

I wouldn't recommend it to begin with. She's going to have Shadow Pack up all game, which is more than enough to keep her safe in most games. Besides, any list with a decent ranged assassination won't be phased by a single shield guard.

>>52707976
The hell is going on with the aspect ratio of your picutre, though?

>>52709041
Just don't give her a woldwatcher. She didn't need them before, she doesn't need them now. You'd be better served arguably be a Sentry Stone and Mannikins.

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>>52709637
That was me trying to edit the picture down to not be as hueg

>>52704116
A whelp with 20 in all stats is not fine, and you are shit at balance for thinking so.

>>52704116
>>52710924
UNBREAKABLE CHARGE LANE BLOCKER
YOU CAN (NOT) ADVANCE

>>52710924
for 20 pts single small base model with no attack, no tough? Eh, it will be fine.

>>52711672
20 health though
20 in all stats
ALL STATS

>>52711709
Can any list handle being 20pts down completely though? Yeah sure, the super whelp is practically invincible, but it can't occupy both zones or multiple flags. If the FA is 20, even then the regular list can only take 3 max.

>>52712053
playing out of theme is playing 20pnts down.

>>52712053
Well you can just take a Mountain King and sacrifice it to get like 5-8 Welps.

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>>52712111
the fact that playing things as printed means playing "down" disgusts me.

>>52712164
I'm proposing more of a whelp like model rather than replacing the whelp. Yes, at that point it gets ridiculous.

>>52712111
Aren't there some factions that don't want theme all the time though? I think Trolls are one of them.

>>52712732
trolls only have the 2 themes so far. all their tournie wins (few though they may be) have been in theme. PP doesn;t want people taking character jacks or mercs, so they've crazily disincentivized playing out of theme.

>>52712796
>all their tournie wins (few though they may be) have been in theme
Which one? Power of Dhunia?

>>52713376
Yeah, 3rd place at Adepticon IG was 3 Power of Dhunia lists. The reason it's taken isn't because of the free points, all you're getting are whelps or shamans, but because you don't have a super awkward turn 1 bumbling with the Krielstone.

>>52712796
It's not crazy just yet, especially with the coming SR scenario changes. Oracles, Power of Dhunia, and others like them are going to get kicked in the nuts if there are multiple scenarios that can't be contested by beasts/jacks. I think the biggest issue right now is that there are factions that don't have enough incentive yet to stay out of theme. Things like Khador character jacks, Hellmouth, or the Sentry Stones.

>>52713627
Well, that's what you get when you build on an unfinished foundation.

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GUESS WHO NIGGERS

>>52714951
Stop yelling Tiberion I'm right here

And I thought we came to an understanding about weapons in the house

>>52708920
>it's nice to give the Artificer a gunjack to chill with while he looks for Magno Blast openings

True. I feel like the Hydra's gun is kinda blegh, though. POW15 is nice, but it's not really that harmful to warjacks and it's overkill on solos. It can maul most medium based models but, with one shot, it doesn't make much impact on units of them.

You can boost the damage, but Hydras always feel like once you start spending focus, you never have time to fill her up again. Theoretically you can put a POW15 boosted shot out each turn, but realistically your Arcanists are going to be too busy putting focus on your other warjacks, and you'll often need to boost to hit anyway.

>>52717056
Not the same guy, but that's where the Jack Marshal advantage comes into play. The thing is RNG 15, so if you get to aim, that's a POW 17 shot at effective RAT 7. Any time you have to move, you can still get the +2 to RAT from the marshal.

>>52717107
Huh, that's true, I forgot about Take Aim.

You can't do that and move, though, so if you get the +2 RAT from Strike True you're firing at POW15. Still, that's not bad, and RNG15 might take people off guard even if you remain stationary most turns.

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>>52713376
>>52713627
Good grief, these lists are all the same.

>>52718747
Well not entirely
Mark is using an impaler with Clanadra
...for some reason

>>52718813
That stuck me as well.

He already has Far Strike from the Bombers. Why pay 11 points for critical smite?

>>52718873
Starcrossed set defense?

>>52718747
You know, at times I'm glad my store isn't all that competitive
I play trolls and these lists look really really boring
>you can spam beasts, spam beasts, or... spam beasts

>>52719245
Well, long as you don't claim trolls are fine it's all good.

>trolls are fine, every faction places somewhere or another
>internal balance motherfucker, do you know it?

>>52713627

Legion actually has been pretty quick to accept Oracles despite not having Hellmouth access.

It also helps that Legion's character beasts are tied to good casters minus Azrael.

>>52719299
Trolls are fine.

Nah Trolls could do with some revisions. But the samey list thing is only really an issue at the highest levels of competitive play, or with people who want to emulate that. Being 100% optimized doesn't really matter much at your average LGS.

>Went to my LGS and played a couple of Skorne games
>Played Mordikaar vs the ghost pirate Cryx theme list
>Got my shit pushed in
>Played Xerxis1 v gun bunnies
>Got my shit pushed in
No but seriously fuck this faction. It's a melee centric faction that can't get their stuff across the table, and even when it gets there it doesn't do enough. Xerxis1's control range being 10" is so fucking stupid considering he wants you to spam dudes.

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>>52721471

>Can't win vs MK 3 Cryx
>It's not even an actually good list, it's meme-tier pirates

I don't think the faction is the issue.

>>52721605
So what do I do against the theme being led by Denny1? Even a meme tier theme list being led by the game's single best best turd polisher is going to go places. My Ferox just ate her debuff and died to meme tier guns, I couldn't touch his incorporeal unit because I forgot to bring the Skorne caster with Spellpiercer oh wait there isn't one, and his fuck ton of low POW shots chewed through my victim statted Swordsmen. I was dropping 4" templates on his infantry but what's the point when he brings back 3 of them every turn who get a full activation? Then he pops his feat that makes Haley2 look like fucking dogshit and I lose my board.

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thoughts on this list

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>>52701498
>>52701923
>>52701966
>>52702724


Bane Warriors are definitely underwhelming considering their cost. They hit incredibly hard, but anything at range above pow 7 blasts wrecks their shit. They have issues with delivery in terms of their speed and survivability vs ranged attacks. Ghostly kind of helps with their accuracy; allowing them to get easier back strikes.

I definitely agree that the UA minifeat is pretty underwhelming and pretty inconsequential. It feels like I'm paying a massive amount of points for Tough + a few extra attacks. I've never had the minifeat be relevant in a game before because the bane warriors do not want to be engaging easily killable light infantry. They take down heavy low-def/high-arm targets, and occassionally park their asses near something for an ARM debuff that requires no rolling.

Be cool if they gave Banes back Stealth as a minifeat. I think I understand and accept that having stealth natively is pretty busted, but I think there can be a Retribution MHSF-style compromise where they keep their original rule, but get it as a 1/game instead of an 'always active' rule.

Barring that, any sort of minifeat that gave a buff to mobility would be pretty neat. I like the idea of Reposition on Banes as well- lets one spread out the ARM debuff.

>>52721471
So you dropped stuff that's bad at dealing with the opponents list and then you got salty about it?

Yes, it must be the faction's fault.

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>>52721668

You have a point- Denny 1 is probably the best caster left in Cryx. I was assuming a different caster.

As a Cryx player, one Skorne model I hate seeing on the other end of the table is the Extoller Soulward. It gives Magical Weapon AND Eyeless Sight. Fucker strips away most of the defensive tech Cryx has to offer. Also remember to RFP the unit leader in the ghost pirate unit- you shut down their reanimation pretty hard.

Against Deneghra 1, if you can bait your opponent into using their feat defensively rather than offensively you're in a good place as well.

>>52721887
The Xerxis list would do even worse against Cryx, and Mordikaar would get obliterated by bunnies.

Skorne feels like I'm playing control in MtG's Modern format. If I've brought the right stuff and have it at the right time, I stand a chance. If not, I'm going to get rolled. It's like my things aren't a big enough problem that my opponent has to worry, meanwhile I have to worry about my opponent's stuff.

>>52721946
I had a Soulward, it was giving eyeless sight and magical weapon to a Cannoneer every turn and dropping 4" templates, but what's the point when those models just keep coming back?. This also means that my Cannoneer cost me 20 points because the Soulward is just a Cannoneer UA that's doing jack shit.

And Skorne has no RFP on anything worth bringing. Off the top of my head we have:
>Hexxy1's feat (works on infantry only)
>Hexxy2's Hellfire
>Zaal2's Annihilation
>Razor Worm's drag below
>Reptile Hound's animus (target melee beast only)
Know what all of these have in common? They're shit.

>Against Deneghra 1, if you can bait your opponent into using their feat defensively rather than offensively you're in a good place as well.
And if I can't bait my opponent? I just have to lose by default?

I don't know how to beat that with a list that isn't custom built to counter it.

>>52721471
No offense, but maybe you could try sucking less.

>>52721052
This a tournament game. The faction is horribly imbalanced. Stop and pull PP's PP out of your mouth and think a little.

>>52722197
That's really constructive.

>>52722250
So is the endless "hurry my faction sucks, I LITERALLY cannot win ever at all!".

>>52722277
Well I've been told in previous threads that as Skorne you may as well not bother trying to beat bunnies because it can't be done. Then I tried to beat them and got crushed. I think I'm yet to beat them outside of squeaking Molik Karn onto his caster and spiking one time.

>>52722355
Hve you tried playing Zaadesh?

>>52722401
He isn't on sale in the UK for another month. He's a very strong consideration though.

>>52722417
Hm. How about Makeda2 with cats or anything with an armor buff / aradus / a krea?

>>52722242
>This a tournament game.

Most of the people in this thread have never played at a tournament, I reckon, and almost certainly never a big one. It would be more accurate to say Warmahordes is a game with a very high ceiling of play level.

I agree that Trolls need rebalancing so that they can play a greater variety of lists on the competitive scene. Playing the most hyper-optimized list rarely matters at the level most people play on, though, and most factions break down into two or three lists when you get to the top tiers.

>>52722474
Every meta going above 8 people will have a tournament. People will practice for said tourneys. Tourneys are inevitable part of the game. That's why metas get pushed to 75pts.

Tournaments matter. That's why the game became popular in the first place, because GW abandoned that scene.

>>52722467
I probably need to just stop using Swordsmen and expecting them to do anything. So much of this game is threat ranges, and 10" at base is just garbage when there's so few ways to get them across the table.

I was a fool for thinking that +1MAT and mini feat weaponmaster would make a unit playable. Not a single one of the 4 Skorne players on discountgames this side of the errata has used a unit of them, and some of those were 3 list events.

>>52722184
>Hexy1
>Shit

>Soldier has the exact same animus as Hounds

>Hydra exists and murders shitloads of infantry no problem, plus has snacking naturally

>Morg2 not bending Ghost Fleet over hard with his feat, and also making Bunnies hate life too

Fuck man, I'm pretty sure even my questionable Xekaar tier list has game into both of those lists.

>>52722634
>Not being able to deliver Swordsmen

Jesus.

>>52722618
I agree that tournaments matter. I enjoy them.

But I know for a fact that a lot of people either don't play in them, or only play in casual, friendly tournaments, and the games they play are completely unrecognizable when compared to those operating at the highest skill tiers.

People play at 75pts because they prefer it, it allows for more options.

>>52722634
Not necessarily. But you can't expect them to do well into a high-volume shooting list.

>>52722701
Eh, he might be new.

Troop delivery is actually an acquired skill in this game.

>>52722701
Once again that's not constructive. The blaster bunnies tear right through them, and the unit is pretty much useless once whittled down. Not even Ferox stand a chance against the 19" threat range of gunners.

So do I have to just run Morghoul2 in every single pairing ever?

>>52722727
>Troop delivery is actually an acquired skill in this game
Apparently one that not a single player listed on discountgames has acquired. Or is 17 points for 11 MAT7 PS12 weaponmasters not very good?

>>52722887
Stop giving your opponent incredibly profitable spray lines?

I mean fuck, man, even ignoring Swordsmen, Xerxis takes a unit of Centrati and makes them ARM24 against shooting every single turn.On average boosted dice, none of the guns in that dwarf list do any damage. And on delivery, they do 3/4s the Colossal in damage, even if it's under feat.

Never mind the practically unshootable Tibbers is, and the damage he wrecks on their shit.

>>52723102
>Stop giving your opponent incredibly profitable spray lines?
There's zero way to do that without holding most of the unit so far back that even if your opponent doesn't kill them, you can't profitably mini-feat.

>ARM24 against shooting
So now I'm taking an Agonizer AND a Krea to support my 18 point unit when the Krea is completely unnecessary against just about any other gunline.

>Never mind the practically unshootable Tibbers is
My opponent's artillery dealt 12 damage to him with a single shot from about 2 miles away. Like dude he's just a Sentry with 2 extra boxes. You pay for the damage output, but he has to get there first.

>>52722705
And none of that matters about quality of stuff PP has put out. PP does not regulate casual play. It doesn't matter if casuals play without scenarios or play unoptimized list. PP's hand is off that, but on the tourney scene. That's why they have rules, iron gauntlet and streams. They have control and view over what's optimized and failing at the top, but they are so bad at it.

If GW made a poorly balanced game I can't get too mad at it because they constantly pushed that that's not their focus. Hell, bloodbowl outright tells you certain teams are hard mode.

PP is being bad at the job they told us that they would be good at. That's why tourney data and tourney level imbalance is so important for PP and no one seems to be getting that.

>Horgenhold Artillery Corps
>Brutal Damage - Extra dice to damage

>Praetorian Ferox
>Brutal Charge - +2 to damage

Yup, this makes complete sense to everyone. You've done a great job in making sure your game isn't needlessly ad hoc in places, PP :^)

>>52723192
>PP is being bad at the job they told us that they would be good at.

They seem pretty good at it to me.

The factions are pretty balanced against one another right now. I think some tweaks should be made within certain factions, to make them more variable, but the overall balance of the game is healthier than it's been in a long, long time, and certainly better than any other game on the market. Save maybe DZC.

>That's why tourney data and tourney level imbalance

There's not really much imbalance at the moment.

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>>52723414
>Brutal Shot: extra damage
>Brutal Charge: extra damage
>Powerful Charge: extra hit
WOOOOOOW REALLY, TWO "CHARGE" ABILITIES THAT DO DIFFERENT THINGS WITH THE SAME TRIGGER? SORT THIS OUT PP

>>52723806
Problem is that "pretty good" isn't good enough. This isn't mki to mkii transition where the game changed at every level. This is more mk 2.5 with point bloat. Even if they couldn't make everything good, they've actually managed to wreck perfectly fine things that have stood the test of time. I mean, how the fuck do you bungle up the charge rule? Laser throw was added why? It's not like they addressed the issues of power attacks generally sucking compared to straight attack either.

And this is after months of shittalk from them about how everything is playtested and balance would be better than ever. Believe me that no faction needed an entire rewrite at start of mkii. They didn't ruin mediocre casters like madrak 1 to skornegy meme tier, they didn't make day 1 spam issue list either. This is also on top of not fixing bad shit that was bad since day 1 like kossites.

Again, poor internal balance equates to bad faction design.

>>52723997
What "trigger"? All I see is the word brutal doing different things on different models. It's inconsistent.

Is this a reasonable first army for a player still in the process of getting good? Im playing Khador.

Sorscha1
Wardog
Destroyer
Juggernaut
Kodiak

Man O War Stormtroopers 4 grunts and leader.
Widowmakers. 3 grunts and leader.
comes out to 37 points.

I also own Strakov but have more experience with sorscha.
My main opponents are Circle, Gatormen, and Cryx.

>>52724307
>Brutal Shot: extra damage
>Brutal Charge: extra damage

Both "Brutal" abilities do extra damage. Don't see the issue.

>>52724242
>Even if they couldn't make everything good, they've actually managed to wreck perfectly fine things that have stood the test of time.

>balance would be better than ever

Balance is better than ever.

>poor internal balance equates to bad faction design.

I agree. But most factions are in a better place than they were prior to MKIII, in terms of balance.

I agree that the start of MKIII was rushed as hell, and things aren't perfect as they are, but the current status quo, right now? Far better than MKII. Trolls need some revisions, and I'm sure they'll get them, seeing as shit is being errata'd more regularly now.

>>52724242
>Believe me that no faction needed an entire rewrite at start of mkii.

There are tons of things that should have been rewritten in MkII. Like, the entirety of Cryx and large swathes of Cygnar were blatantly overpowered.

You've got grass is always greener syndrome, son.

>>52702988
They aren't. The CID is for Steamroller 2017, the battle engine stuff launches a week later, and with it the Bane theme and bane models. Presumably all of these will last till the 5th week is over.

>>52724743
And we traded 1 cancer for another with jacks v banes. Again, the claim that the game is better is bullshit.

Also cygnar was shit. Mercnar was a thing for a reason. Stormwall, haley 2, gunmages were the only good thing from cygnar. Cygnar only placed because cryx killed all the competition for them and they killed cryx exclusively
Inb4 "see mkii was also bad"
It's not better in mkiii either

>>52702988
>Half of every faction needs a complete rework

That's some insane hyperbole.

The vast majority of Khador, Cygnar, Menoth, Ret, Convergence, Circle, Legion, and Skorne are fine right now. At most, some of these factions need one or two of their units/casters tweaked slightly. Ret and Convergence need absolutely no adjustment, as far as I can tell, literally everything in them works perfectly.

Cryx, Mercenaries and Minions need some small changes. Trollbloods are really the only faction that requires a solid looking at.

>>52724594
A weapon has PS15 and brutal damage. What's the damage roll?

>>52724850
>And we traded 1 cancer for another with jacks v banes.

One army dominating, mostly through one unit, is a much worse state of affairs than warnouns now being viable. Back in MkII listbuilding was even more limited than it was now.

>Stormwall, haley 2, gunmages were the only good thing from cygnar.

Almost all Cygnar's casters are good you moron. Haley2 was just retardedly gamebreakingly good. And frankly, that stuff was good enough to make Cygnar completely OP.

If you think the game isn't in a better place than it was during MkII you're flat-out retarded. There are no longer any factions that are completely beyond the others, and no longer any that lag utterly behind. Listbuilding actually varies now, despite the sordid meme that it's 'jacks only' - I mean, have you actually looked at any winning lists lately?

You're just whining for the sake of whining at this point.

>>52724913
15 with an extra die.

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Posted once more. This time from a computer with pictures.

Is this a reasonable first army for a player still in the process of getting good? Im playing Khador.

Sorscha1
Wardog
Destroyer
Juggernaut
Kodiak

Man O War Stormtroopers 4 grunts and leader.
Widowmakers. 3 grunts and leader.
comes out to 37 points.

I also own Strakov but have more experience with sorscha.
My main opponents are Circle, Gatormen, and Cryx.

I don't mind losing every game. I just wanna make sure to not lose it at list building.

My opponents use Asphyxious3 and Bloody Barnabus.

>>52725010
Nope, it's +2 to the damage roll so 17+2d6 ;^)

>>52725021
Are you an idiot? Brutal Damage is an extra die. Brutal Charge is +2.

>>52725021
No it's not you idiot.

Brutal Damage gives you an extra die on damage rolls.

You're thinking of Brutal Charge. Just because you can't keep this shit straight doesn't mean everyone else has the same problem.

>>52725020
Yeah, that's fine for getting started.

I'd look into Beast 09 maybe, or Ruin. It would be a good idea to get that Shocktrooper squad up to a full unit.

>>52725937
>It would be a good idea to get that Shocktrooper squad up to a full unit.

By which I mean, get the officer. He's great. Immunity to knockdown is one of the most useful abilities in the game.

>>52725020
Get a Mano-War Kovnik. You need Desperate Pace to get them across the battlefield.

>>52724968
>One army dominating, mostly through one unit, is a much worse state of affairs than warnouns now being viable.
Ok, now it dominates through multiple factions spamming one model. So the cancer has spread.

>Almost all Cygnar's casters are good you moron. Haley2 was just retardedly gamebreakingly good. And frankly, that stuff was good enough to make Cygnar completely OP.
That sure was a lot of Stryker 1, Stryker 3, Caine 1, Haley 1, Darius, Kraye, Nemo 1, Nemo 2, Nemo 3, Constance, Sloan, Sturgis we saw in the meta. Yup, so good that no one played them.

> There are no longer any factions that are completely beyond the others, and no longer any that lag utterly behind.
Circle, Khador, Trolls, Minions, yup, those don't exist. Not at all.

You are just being delusional at this point. It's just same cancer, different shit.

And if you want new shit, the 2016 Steamroller is one, and don't you fucking dare excuse something as being ok design because you can choose not to play 2 of the scenarios.

>>52726475
>Ok, now it dominates through multiple factions spamming one model.

Not even close. Maybe look at winning lists sometime. Despite what le epic maymays may have told you, jackspam is not what every faction does.

>cygnarshit

We saw plenty of Stryker3 and Cain. Constance and the jack casters were the only ones you never ever saw, because Constance was just poor and warjacks weren't viable in Mark 2. They're all fine, they just weren't nearly as good as other options, like Haley2 and Terry Crews.

>Circle, Khador

Neither completely dominates. Many people at the moment don't even consider them to be in a tier of their own. Khador, Cygnar, Circle, Ret, Menoth, Convergence and Skorne are on relatively even footing right now. Cryx and Legion are slightly below them, but not to the point where it makes every game a foregone conclusion.

>Trolls, Minions

If you think either of these is in the same place Minions and Ret occupied in Mark 2 you're completely delusional.

>>52726475
>Circle, Khador,

Neither of which are represented among the top March Adepticon players.

Trollbloods are in there, though.

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>>52726638

>Legion has been scoring in the top three in plenty of events since November and double placed in Adepticon
>Since November holds more top 3's than Khador, Protectorate, Skorne, Convergence, and Retribution and is only behind Cygnar and Circle
>/tg/ still treats it like it's low to mid tier

>>52727052
/tg/ is shit at Warmahordes. This is no secret.

>>52727052
Personally, I don't think it's low tier, I just think it has more internal issues than a few other factions.

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>>52727052
That's a nice Rhyas.

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>>52727420

>not popping the Twins feat and start fucking Saeryn mid thrust.

>>52727456
That obviously comes later, after several nights of hot dickings have been transmitted from one twin to the other by the IK setting's weird siblings magic.

It's a shame most of the Twins' fluff is post MKI. Back in those days them sharing a lover is something the writers wouldn't have shied away from. They wrote Denny's sloppy trencher BJ after all, and Skarre's pirate booty was constantly implied to be taking a galleon's worth of sea dog D.

>>52727456
Shifting gears for a second, would twins run a children of the dragon list well? I knwo it means no Zuriel, but he's less than spectacular anyway.

>>52727738
Possibly. I'm not a huge fan of the twins' epic variant, to be honest, I find them kind of corner-casey and hamstrung in weird ways.

The lack of Zuriel certainly isn't a problem. There isn't too much he does that a Carnivean doesn't do.

>>52727738

No one can run it well. It's a garbage theme that runs counter to Legions strengths and rewards playing .

Independent of that you are allowed to bring character beasts into themes if your warnoun has a bond with it.

>>52727768
I like him for being a steathed heavy arc node, but yeah, a carni can pull beatstick duty in his place, if not a little better.

>>52727420
>>52727456
Man, why are their feats so lewd?

I can't think of any others quite as exploitable as these.

Do the Cygnar electric bounces completely ignore electric immune units? Or do they bounce to the electric immune units and just do no damage?

>>52728044
Ignore. Confusion might be had because in Mk2, they did not ignore them, they just did no damage.

>>52726475
>That sure was a lot of Stryker 1, Stryker 3, Caine 1, Haley 1, Darius, Kraye, Nemo 1, Nemo 2, Nemo 3, Constance, Sloan, Sturgis we saw in the meta. Yup, so good that no one played them.
Most of those are good and played. You need to pay attention to actually good Cygnar players to noptice though.

>Circle, Khador, Trolls, Minions, yup, those don't exist. Not at all.
Those are some balanced factions. No idea what you are trying to say here.

>>52723182
Krea is required against gun lines period? I don't mean to be a dick but if you can't see how added more support to cetrati to literally make them an unlikable deathstar is good I don't know what to tell you. Like 80% of the people I play against their list just cannot kill a full cetrati deathstar.

>>52724874
Eh, as a Ret guy Garryth and Ravyn could use a slight tweak to bring them up from "literally never used", but yeah, I agree we're in a pretty good place.

>>52700961
Dervishes and Repenters often work great in pairs. Dervishes are super cheap. Reliable and have a def of 13 with pow13 sidestep/parry swords. Make that pow 15 with a choir and you have some cool upfront melee jacks with base mat7. Repenters are also cool as they are super focus efficent and can reliable hassle or even destroy heavy jacks behind shields. Als can get up to pow 15 and pow 14 flammer. If you have something like speed buffs repenters can become a literal nightmare for infantery that has steahlt or cover.

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>>52723182

>>52730284
Cetrati don't hit hard enough to be considered a death star.

Noob question - I'm looking at the Devastator and Demolisher, and the description for armored shell states they go down to armor 19 if they perform an attack that isn't a headbutt/trample/etc; this means the Devastator's Rain of Death and the Demolisher's shoulder guns also cause them to become armor 19, correct?

>>52732559
Correct. Otherwise it'd say "if it makes a melee attack" or something along those lines.

>>52732491
That's retarded and you know it.

Crystal Chronicles was legit fun

>>52730888
Personally I think squishy assassins will always be low tier due to the amount of risk they open the player up to.

Ravyn needs a rework though, yeah. For one, there's no reason why she shouldn't have 7 focus - she's not personally powerful at all. Now that Ossyan is the shooty infantry man, she should be redesigned into the shooty jack captain. Change Locomotion to Energizer, give her something that improves battlegroup RAT, etc.

>>52732644
I'm just saying, he's bitching about taking support pieces while playing fucking Skorne. Might as well bitch about needing a table.

>>52733156
Upping the cost of Cetrati to 39 points to make them 15/24 still feels very extreme. The only Xerxis list on discountgames has no Krea.

>>52733219
To continue, the main issue for me is the complete lack of flexibility in the Krea. It can ONLY protect you from guns. The Agonizer on the other hand has much more utility, not to mention is smaller with a bigger bubble. I daresay that Tibbers can do the Krea's job much better. Stand him behind your Cetrati and suddenly your opponent can't CRA into them since Tibbers will just tank it. Now they're ineffectively pumping POW12 guns into 13/22 Cetrati, at which point the Krea is just 7 points of overkill that you don't need. Here's the 3rd place list at the Las Vegas Open that I'm copying now. It's pretty close to what I was using already, except this doesn't have the Swordsmen, quite likely for the reason I've since discovered; they just can't make it across the table, at least with Xerxis. Makeda2 might be a completely different story with Dash, Deflection, and Elite Cadre Vengeance for them.

>(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Tiberion [22]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
Tyrant Rhadeim [9]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]

How do I make Feora2 work? I've attempted bringing Reckoners, Vanquishers or buffing Redeemers with Firestarter. I haven't tried out Cleansers or Sunbursts.
Should I just ignore her feat and cram as many jacks in her list as possible?

>>52706910
Check out the WarroomPL channel on youtube. They have a video of a game from a German tournament where a really good player plays Naaresh. His list is rather interesting.

>>52721471
Xerxis has always been pretty dogshit against most if not all the Cryx casters. The only Xerxis build that actually ever worked was Mk2 Fist of Halaak Incindiarii spam against very specific cryx lists.

Try a caster like Rasheth next time with some Extoller soulward support, you'll have a much better experience.

>>52733286
>the main issue for me is the complete lack of flexibility in the Krea. It can ONLY protect you from guns
That's a problem but there are in fact two solutions here:
1) Only put the Krea into your anti-ranged list.
2) Play ADR.

>>52722634

Have you considered screening their approach with stuff like Karax?

>>52733286
The Krea becomes a lot more interesting with a drake (or soon Chiron). In a mirror I ran my drake into melee of a molik karn
and the Krea charged him on turn 2 under xerxis 2's feat, and she took him out. It's anti shooting until it becomes a Mat 6 pow 14/16 weapon master. It also has eyeless sight, and thats a decent gotcha for cloud walls once in a while.

>>52734415
>ADR

Skorne really likes having specialists with all the "___ on a stick" pieces.

>>52723182

Krea has always been a staple Skorne unit, it's easily been one of the best models available to the faction throughout every single edition of the game, copping multiple nerfs every edition until PP realised they fucked up bad and rebuffed it.

Krea is good, both at delivering stuff like Ferox/Cetrati/Tiberion, keeping your Warlock alive from downtown snipe attempts, and also as a minor control piece.

The Krea has pretty much always gone hand in hand with Xerxis1 lists outside of the Fist of Halaak spam.

>>52734415
>Skorne
>ADR
I just don't think that Mordikaar, Naaresh, or Xekaar are up to the task of competitive play. And I do have a Krea in my anti-ranged list. That list just isn't Xerxis. It's Makeda3 ;^)

>>52723182
>My opponent's artillery dealt 12 damage to him with a single shot from about 2 miles away. Like dude he's just a Sentry with 2 extra boxes. You pay for the damage output, but he has to get there first.

You know most people bring a Krea with Xerxis, really helps the titans get to where they need to go and gives you an opportunity to medicate/heal chip damage off your beasts.

>>52732501

Cetrati aren't a death star their sole purpose is to exist so Xerxis doesn't get his ass raped. Medium base and a 10" CTRL means Xerxis needs a brick wall in front of him so he doesn't get ganked.

>>52733286
There's no Krea because the player had 3 lists and it's probable against any gunline threat he was planning to drop his Morghoul2 list into it (which also has a Krea).

>>52734680
So why tell me to include a Krea in that one list to make Cetrati unkillable, rather than ask whether or not my other list has one? You people are fags.

>>52733286

One of the aspects of Warmachine is it's balanced around building multiple lists to play in a draft format.

You build multiple lists to complement each other and achieve specific goals. If you need a list to deal with lots of high powered shooting like dwarfs because your other lists will get their shit pushed in by it, then you do just that. You can either adapt an existing list to do better, or do what Trevor did with the Skorne lists you linked and build a 3rd list that can fuck up a gunline pretty good.

>>52734700
Because you're complaining about playing Xerxis into a gunline. The list you're playing with was made by the player with 0 intention of playing it into a gunline like Bunnies, that's what his other list was for.

You're copycatting his list and dropping it into fights it wasn't designed for, then bitching about it and bitching when told how to adapt it to fix it against the matchups you're trying to play it into.

See why everyone thinks you're an idiot?

>>52734700
Everyone is probably assuming if you're other list both has a Krea and was designed to be dropped into gunlines, you probably would've done that instead of being a fucking retard and trying to play your Xerxis1 list into horrible matchups.

>>52734602
>I just don't think that Mordikaar, Naaresh, or Xekaar are up to the task of competitive play
I think Zaadesh2 + ADR can be played into nearly every matchup. In fact, I tried.

>>52734756
>Because you're complaining about playing Xerxis into a gunline
My original complaint was playing Xerxis into BUNNIES, not a gunline. There's a vast difference I assure you.

>>52727890
Thagrosh chose his warlocks for waifuability. Note that the only other male warlock in Legion us basically an autistic war eunuch.>>52727890

>>52734954
>BUNNIES, not a gunline
And how exactly did those bunnies hurt you? Could that maybe have been by using guns?

>>52734973
>Note that the only other male warlock in Legion us basically an autistic war eunuch
He's not even male. He's not even of any existing species. He's the ultimate Harem sidekick character.

>>52734988
Conventional gunlines cannot boost their damage or come at you from 21" away. Sure Invictors can have that kind of range, but they're 2d6-10 against me. You're essentially suggesting that I spend 7 points just incase my opponent is playing Ossrum. That's the definition of something being game warping.

>>52735060
Are you fucking serious right there? No, I mean it. Are you kidding? Is this entire post chain just a very elaborate, but not very funny joke? I can't even respond seriously to your post. There is just so much wrong with it that the best way to correct it would by by restarting the universe and entering a timeline where you are not a total idiot.

>>52735060
You literally just played your list into Denny1 who is well known for putting -5ARM onto multiple targets and then shooting them off the board.

No other shooty casters use boosted damage? What the fuck do you think Lylyth does? Do Butcher1 gunlines not add a fucking dice to every single damage roll they make on feat turn as they literally delete heavies off the board?

You are handicapped in the brain department.

>>52735060
Have you like, not played many games or something? Because all of that post is wrong.

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>>52727890
>Garryth will never suck you dry with his magical black hole

>>52735060
Funny you bring up Invictors.

Invictors + Ossyan is the archetypal boosted gunline of MkIII.

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If I were looking for a unit to get to a point/zone and sit on it, should I be looking toward Kriel Warriors or Warders?
I feel like Warders are much less likely to get shot off the table, but I don't own either of them so I have no experience.

>>52735745
Hey look, it's fucking troll picture again.

>>52736056
You seem like a nice person

guys, help me with a rules thing from Unleashed:

when a warlock starts his turn, he can force his warbeast to generate fury points. He also can leech fury points to use for spells and other stuff.

My GM is playing that you cannot force the beast and leech fury points at the same turn - or, in your first turn, you can force the beast but cast no spells. Only from 2nd turn onwards you can leech the previous generated fury points to use for your stuff, while then being able to force the warbeast again.

Is this correct? Seems pretty convoluted to me

>>52688426
Give infantry a universal anti-shooting order. Advance and +2 def or something like that.
Make terrain presets, but SR 2017 already should do that.
Give option to make everything in mercs/minions friendly faction for added points, not just units with UA.
More theme forces until every model in every faction can benefit from bonus points.
Up non-theme lists by 5 points or something like that.
Reword disabled/destroyed/removed/etc. sequence bullshit. It shouldn't be so complex to kill models.
Stop things that "don't count as attack" from getting around protective abilities.

>>52736708
>Reword disabled/destroyed/removed/etc. sequence bullshit. It shouldn't be so complex to kill models.

Sorry, no.

This is actually one of the *really* well-designed part of the rules, since so much stuff triggers off of models being killed, having explicit steps makes the rules easy to apply, and most of it doesn't even come up until you have two abilities that otherwise trigger on a model being killed (or almost killed).

Now, they could name them a bit differently, sure, and there should be a term for "destroyed or removed from play", but the model death sequence is really well done.

(And I'd guess fearing WotC lawyers is why "removed from play" isn't just called "exiled")

However, they really need a "regroup" action (or activation phase) that triggers after combat action and to things like Reposition and such, so they can clean up the rules stupidity of "If something says 'activation immediately ends', you don't resolve effects that happen 'at end of activation'".

>Stop things that "don't count as attack" from getting around protective abilities.

This a hundred times over.

Also, Electro Leap should count as blast damage.

And I say that as a Cygnar player

>>52733086
>Ravyn needs a rework though, yeah. For one, there's no reason why she shouldn't have 7 focus - she's not personally powerful at all. Now that Ossyan is the shooty infantry man, she should be redesigned into the shooty jack captain. Change Locomotion to Energizer, give her something that improves battlegroup RAT, etc.

This would be excellent.

She's due to go epic, right? I get the impression that PP was setting her up as the main character of Retribution, but she's been consistently outshone by others - including warcasters from other factions.

>>52736708
>Give infantry a universal anti-shooting order. Advance and +2 def or something like that.
So they get to shoot at you for longer?

>>52736708
>Give infantry a universal anti-shooting order. Advance and +2 def or something like that.

This could be cool. 'Bob and Weave' or something like that.

I think it would also be nice if there was more relatively inexpensive armour piercing stuff you could attach to units to help combat jackspam.

Are there any other orders in the game besides Press Forward and Shield Wall? It feels like the whole issuing orders thing is kinda shit if there's only one vanilla order you can hand out. An order that tells your dudes to try and dodge incoming fire would be pretty neat.

>>52737066
It feels like Warmachine never had that period that Magic had, where a few years into the game's life, WotC cleaned up the rules and made them make sense.

>>52738802
Most other orders are unit specific, though not always unique.

Cautious Advance, Hog Wild, Double Time, and I think there's a few others.

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so I've only played historical wargames in 28mm and because I wanted to try something else I got into Warmachine with Menoth.

damn, fantasy minis are a LOT harder to paint than WW2 soldiers

>>52739842
Having trouble with that armor? You should give P3's Super Metallic Metallizer System a try!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEcKBrNJNxY

>>52739842
Nah, just different. You'll get used to it.

>>52739130
That was kinda Mk2. Mk1 was a mess in a lot of ways, and Mk2 cleaned stuff up, and then Mk3 streamlined it a bit more. The rules do keep getting better, but there are some areas that it's still puzzling didn't get fixed in Mk3 (end of activation, model heights, "any time" abilities mostly), and stuff that's now mostly a balance issue but stems from a rules problem (Electro Leaps, and specifically how the only defensive tech they interact with is lightning immunity), but they've fixed most of the egregious stuff.

Outside of those, the rules are pretty solid. Charge success/failure rules and Assault could use some tweaking, but really aren't bad compared with *every other tabletop game I've ever played*.

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So, is there, like, any fluff on this area of the world? Anything at all?

Do more humans live there or something?

>>52742071
Zu?

Not really, no. But it's going to come more into focus with new material. The next RPG supplement is about it, and many of the factions have moved into the area.

>>52742937
That's not Zu.

Zu has never been pictured on any IK map.

>>52742071
Alchiere is a focus area for mk3. It's where the United Kriels under Madrak went after the whole "we accidentally on purpose summoned the Wurm to Caen and also Barnabas is a god now" situation. Everblight also sent Kallus down there to hunt for athames and I guess to set up a jungle chapter of the Legion. Menoth has declared a crusade for the area because it's full of wildmen and Trolls now.

Shattered Spine islands is I think part of the Skorne Empire and it's also where Croaks (Anura) come from.

>>52743290
I don't think the Skorne have any presence in the Shattered Spine.

It is where the Cephalyx originally came from, though, before they became subterranean leather enthusiasts.

>>52744179
Skorne enslaved all the Anura, the ones that work for Blindwater are escaped slaves. The Ceph used to be humans that got driven underground by the cataclysm that created the Bloodstone and the Rift (the Elves bringing the Gods over?).

>>52744261
>the Elves bringing the Gods over?

Yeah, the destruction of the Celestial Bridge was what created the Bloodstone Marches.

I'm pretty sure the Skorne don't live in the Shattered Spine though. The limits of their empire are usually outlined as ending at the edge of the main landmass. I would imagine the Anura were deported, since the Skorne treat all other races like animals.

>>52744365
I just checked the forces of book. I was wrong about where they were when the cataclysm fucked them up. They were in the Shattered Spine Islands, but they weren't Shattered or Islands back then. They were a human civ called the Urus and lived in a citystate called Icthier, now lost when the Elves blew up the world.

The Skorne lore is probably in their Forces Of book and in the IKRPG book about the empire. They for sure enslaved the Anura, because croak raiders and hunters are explicitly escaped slaves, though to what extent they colonized the Islands is unknown to me at this time.

>>52724494
that seems like a really slow list for a caster as 'balls on the table' as sorscha1. Ya gotta go faster, or have more shooting to soften up your opponents warcaster so sorcha can do that 17' non linear autohitting charge thing and finish them off

>>52735060
Guys I think he's realized he's retarded.