Do you agree with del Toro?

>>52684358
Sure

>>52684358
Disagree, but purely on the usage of terms. Sue is a purely derogative term, so not applicable in situations when such character does not impede quality.

As much as i love my boy torro
No i dont agree

Thats just what normal story characters are.

A mary sue is specifically a character who impedes the chosen tone of a narrative.

Regular characters can push or pull on a chosen narrative but they reach mary sue territory once they have begun to detract from the story and become negative influence.

If every character is on a mary sue spectrum, then that defeats the purpose of labelling a character a mary sue

Personally i think people use the term too liberally which reduces its effectiveness as a label

No. A character that is unique for the sake of being unique is a shit character.
Like someone playing a cross dressing tiefling with multi-colored eyes and hair.

>>52684454

That kind of thing is more a symptom than a cause of sueness, which I think might be his point.

In the right context, with the right group and players, or in the right story, almost any concept can work. The question is how much effort it takes to get to that point, and whether it's worth it.

On that scale, a cross dressing tiefling with multicoloured eyes and hair barely seems like an issue for me, as long as it's being played by someone skilled enough to make them all elements of an interesting and coherent character.

>>52684358
Not really. A Mary Sue is essentially a character with no flaws, weakenesses, and is perfect in every way. Not only does that not really allow for conflict, it's just bad storytelling. And before someone gets on me, even Superman has flaws and internal conflicts that make him less than perfect.

I mean, even Jesus had flaws and internal conflict.

>>52684450
>If every character is on a mary sue spectrum, then that defeats the purpose of labelling a character a mary sue
This. Being a "Mary Sue" is basically a point-of-no-return for a character exhibiting so many of specific kinds of traits. Characters can be flawed or cliched, but there's a limit to this that if you cross it you're officially a Mary Sue.

What del Toro is saying is equivalent to, "a character's serial killer-ness is a sliding scale." No, it really isn't, because once you exhibit enough traits akin to a serial killer, you become one. Full stop. You can't be "sort of" one, just like how you can't be "sort of" a Mary Sue. Only people who misuse or overuse the term seem unable to grasp this.

>>52684446

In terms of twitter's restricted character limit del Toro is right but with more room to discuss I agree with you.

A character can be an overpowered idol of perfection and with one writer be a sue while another can create something good, or at least inoffensive/important to the story.

>>52684358
Mary Sue got so overused that i don't even know what it means today (it was supposed to be a perfect girlfriend for the protagonist isn't it?) so it's makes sense being perceived as a scale

Is Tom Bombadil a mary-sue?

>>52684608
No, because he didn't do much

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>>52684450
>Implying Mary Sue can't be fun and best girl.

>>52684618

Yeah if Tom had just sneezed and brought all the good people back from the dead and wiped out all traces of evil in the world then he would be a sue.

As is he's just a strange side character.

Absolutely, see Sherlock Holmes

>>52684499
Jesus would be a really fun character

>>52684358
Yes.

>>52684358
The way I see it, a Mary Sue warps the story around themselves to the detriment of the narrative and the characterization of others.

>>52684358
Yes, but also no. As has been mentioned Mary Sue is a pejorative. It only refers to things that are bad for those reasons.

That said, he's not wrong. Hellboy, a character he has worked with relatively extensively, is pretty "Mary Sue" but still works within the narrative.

>>52684608
Not really. Especially if you realize he is a personification of Tolkiens catholic view of nature.

>>52684608
>>52684618
No, because he didn't give a shit, which was his flaw

>>52684358
Disagree, but he has to be working off of a different definition than I am.
I was under the impression that a Mary Sue, as codified by that one woman who wrote the story, was the writer masturbating to their self-insert and how cool they wish they were

>>52684599
>i don't even know what it means today

I don't think you ever did.

Extra credit! Guess the context!

it's a "response" to "misogynists" criticising Rey in TFA

>>52684358
No. It is not a sliding scale, it is a boolean variable. Sues are a quality impediment. Consequently, if something is not a quality impediment, it is not a Sue.

>>52684729
That is just factually incorrect, Tom Bombadil was a character he created for his children, nothing more.

The term "Mary Sue" has lost any meaning but "Character I don't like"

>>52685302
On /tg/ maybe, elsewhere it's still a valid term.

>>52684888
Well she is a fucking Mary Sue.

>>52684358
He is right, but understanding that requires that one know what "mary sue" actually means, which of course, most of the posters in this thread do not.

Nope, a Mary sue by default breaks a story by destroying existing rules and characterization to make them look good.

And by stricter definition a sue is also supposed to be fan made. An original creator making a wank fantasy protaginist is just an author self insert.

People got a bit too liberal about throwing it around and now the definition is muddled, but the original mary sue concept is basically unsalvageable.

>>52685752
The please enlighten us.

>>52684599
You never knew the definition, retard.
Jesus christ. What orifice did you pull this shit out of.

>>52685302
Mad Reygay detected.

>>52684450
To be fair Mary Sue was originally a purely fanfiction term. Though I feel it it has not gone to "lost all meaning" territory there are several different definitions for it depending on the medium and genre you are talking about.

>>52685906
I'm sorry I forgot to append "And Force Awakens was a shitty nostalgia pandering movie with boring as fuck characters", you retarded sperg

>>52685522
As were Anakin and especially Luke, but your characters don't have to be good to be fun
Sadly, Rey was neither.

He has a point since a lot of people use the term even if the character doesnt' impede quality. Like when the word is used by people who were just memed into hating characters that are really talented or charismatic or something

>>52686039
>Luke was a mary sue
Are you completely retarded?
He spends 90% of ANH being useless and being saved by everyone. Literally no other character even likes him.

>>52685853

Here's an essay someone wrote on the subject http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.xhtml

>>52684888
>>52686043 here. Actually I change my mind after reading this. His point is shit.

>>52684511
>No, it really isn't, because once you exhibit enough traits akin to a serial killer, you become one. Full stop.

I don't think in that case it's about having "enough" traits.The only one that matters there is actually killing people. It's easy to put a full stop on it because there's one important trait that instantly makes all the difference.

i think that guy, in the few characters twitter allowed him, is trying to use the word "mary sue" as a character that has all the characteristic of a mary sue(no flaws, etc.), minus being fan.created and being narrative-breaking by definition.

it would be quite stupid of him to say "something that makes the story bad by definition does not make the story bad". You should guess he's trying to convey a different, more meaningful, message and argue with that rather than tripping on your vocabulary autism.

>>52685264
Going to be really hard to prove an intpretation of a character whose nature is left vague by the author factually incorrect. I'll go ahead and let you try though.

I will admit, that the initial character was inspired by a toy his son played with iirc, but that isn't the end of the character. Gandalf was inspired by a postcard of Odin, and he is neither a postcard or Odin.

>>52684454
>cross dressing tiefling with multi-colored eyes and hair.
>unique

nigga wut?

>>52686148
It's not an interpretation, he literally put tom in there just for his kids and he even stated so in one of his letters. Now setting aside that you're a moron, the hobbits are the society closest to what JRR tolkien's ideal world was, they were the purest expression of his beliefs, this is also in his letters, and other associated material his son has released to the public, next time you make a fucking claim make sure you know what the fuck you're talking about.

On the topic of Mary sues, if not directly related: Can you have a well written character that is a bit "flat"?

Most people argue that characters need to learn something and grow and change significantly over the course of the story. But what if the character changes very little? And learns almost nothing from his ordeal? What if the characters personality causes him to have very obvious flaws that are not rectified at the end of the story, so they become a Mary sue or bad character?

>>52684685
Remember, when someone asks you what Jesus would do, ransacking a temple is perfectly fine course of action.

>>52686217
Provide the letter that's proof of your claim.

>>52686285
Go google it yourself you lazy fuck.

>>52686254
Paul from Dune is probably the closest thing I can think of

>>52686254
that just makes your characte rmore realistic

>>52686254

Their isn't anything inherently wrong with a character being static rather than dynamic. Some people really are so set in their ways that no amount of life lessons will break them or their habits.

>>52686386
>>52686405
This is Good to know, thank you anons. Perhaps my character might finally make his way out of the backpages of my notebook

>>52684446
>>52684450
I feel we summed this up quite nicely.

But I would argue that a mary/gary sue, someone with no true challenge and all the cards, can sometimes make a story fun in itself.

or does this type of character have a different name? Because in that case they wouldn't impeding the narrative.

>>52686271
But only when driving out capitalists.

>>52686217
Tolkien also left Tom vague as an almost clairvoyant "screw you" to those fans who would come to obsess over the details of his worldbuilding, and insist on trying to have everything make perfect sense.

>>52686039
>Sue
>trains entire movie
>loses a hand and goes into a coma
k.

>>52684358
No

>>52686112
There's more to a serial killer than just killing. There are characters who kill many people, but always do so in the context of battle. That is not serial killing.

>>52686039
Others have spoken for Luke, but I'll come out and say that Anakin isn't a Sue either. He's just really badly written in general. There's at least a vague outline of a proper story arc to all the shit he does, charting his corruption by the Dark Side, his estrangement from his mentor and master, and his eventual fall from grace. Putting aside the quality of the writing, does the idea of a character giving in to their worst nature strike you as particularly "flawless"? The guy murders children, for fuck's sake, and swears loyalty to an Evil Overlord. He's not perfect in the slightest.

>>52684358
Yes, kinda, sorta. I understand that the term these days is commonly used to mean any character that's powerful, successful, good-looking, and healthy, and you can certainly write stories about such characters that are engaging. In fact, some of the worst stories I've ever experienced didn't have these types of characters but were rather written by people who were just good enough that they realized that they couldn't write about such characters, resulting in still bad stories that simply didn't feature them.

However, I still use the term only for fanfic self-inserts. Conan the Cimmerian isn't a Sue to me even if he's the strongest man in the world, and the best fighter, and incredible in bed, and instantly great at whatever he decides to do, because he's the main character of sword and sorcery stories. He's supposed to be all of those things. When little Timmy decides to write his own Conan comic and inserts a character which very clearly is Timmy but even better and stronger than Conan, and who instantly gains Conan's friendship for no reason what so ever, then that is a Sue.

>>52687082
Then wouldn't a more accurate term be 'serial murderer?'

>>52687109

Mind you, going just by first move vs first movie...Anakin does a fair bit more.

I man, the pre-teen is the entire reason the planetary invasion fails and can take part in a sport that literally no other human can do because he's That Good with the force + beat out many veteran pilots despite having his stuff sabotaged so he's got a multi-minute slowed start.. Rey...gets saved and manages to beat a guy who was busy bleeding to death in a fight.

I don't think TFA was a great movie (Decent but nothing spectacular) but Anakin was a right little shit of a mary sue in his first movie.

>>52686039
>anakin
>mary sue
the fuck. You do realize that Mary Sue =/= character is incredibly powerful? Anakin fucks up everything for himself. The prequels are supposed to be a tragedy.

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Guillermo del Toro is a raging faggot who can't write or direct and the only reason people even associate with him is because they feel sorry for him.

He is Hollywood's special needs student.

>>52686355
I wanna call you out on that but Paul was established in the beginning as someone who was learning to survive and thrive so really everything he did was an extension of that.

>>52686057
Did we even watch the same movie? Because he spent a good portion of it wiping out stormtroopers in a daring raid on the Imperial superweapon then outflying the entire Rebellion and making a shot nobody else could.

>>52687374
See >>52687282 - all the fucking up comes in the later movies. In the first he's a ridiculous Sue, up to and including being Jedi Jesus.

>>52686881
Well, there's the characters that exist as such in order to support the story. One-Punch Man and Drizzt are actually good examples of this. They spend the better part of the story being observers for the most part, and only step in when the plot requires them to. The real quality and substance of the story comes from the other characters and their conflicts.

>>52687466
>Because he spent a good portion of it wiping out stormtroopers in a daring raid

He shot, like, three dudes and ran away crying.

>outflying the entire Rebellion and making a shot nobody else could.

With the help of a space ghost and a smuggler who saved him from certain death.

You should really watch it again. Great film, a nice refresher from the cookie-cutter horseshit you clearly favor.

>>52684358
In Dune everybody is a Mary Sue. And when everybody is a Mary Sue then nobody is.

>>52684358
No. Mary sue is specifically termed for characters in fanfiction. In original works a character who has all the same traits isn't a 'mary sue' they're just poorly written.

>>52684358
He's technically correct in that those sorts of traits that are commonly associated with a Mary Sue can be used as a sort of gauge, but his conclusion is flawed.

It's similar to a character's height. A character can theoretically be any size, but you want to pick a size that fits well for your genre. A character who is 6 inches tall only fits if they're a mouse in a world of talking animals, and the story centers around that. Someone who is 8 feet tall is going to be really tall and stand out in a crowd...unless it's the future and gene-modding makes 8 a pretty typical height. Someone 50 feet tall would be fine in a superhero story, but just gets silly if you're trying to do a down-to-earth detective drama.

It's the same thing with Mary Sues. A girl with green hair and cat ears might not be a mary sue in a cyberpunk world where that's a very low-level gene mod, but she absolutely will be a mary sue in a historical noire or whatever.

The traits that are common to Mary Sues are the sliding scale that defines your tone. It's when those traits don't match it that the character becomes a Sue and therefore an impediment to quality.

>>52687082
In the context of battle it would be a parallel killer.

I thought Mary/Gary Stus were simply self-inserts

is that not what they are

>>52687762
I think it has to be a super-cool self-insert. Like, Peter Jackson showing up in Bree is a self-insert but you don't see him rescuing frodo Frodo, with Gandalf going "Oh kind stranger who I just learned is Isildur's true heir. Forgot the whole send-a-midget-to-Mordor plan, I want you to take the ring and rule the world"

>>52687762
No, it's a little more than that

My friend ran an online DH campaign where the interrogator that gave the team the missions was a self insert, or at least heavily based on himself. Only I knew because I knew him IRL. however the interrogator in question was kind of a gloryhound promotion seeker, and he wasn't portrayed as a likeable person, it even particularly competent. The party quickly, and rightly became quite wary around him.

When push came to shove he fucked up by arrogantly underestimating the chaotic cult's numbers, got a separate acolyte cell massacred, and died in an explosive martyrdom - only after getting shot in the sound and being unable to escape, though.

If he had been a mary sue, he would've instead been scouted by the Knights Indicator, or something.

>>52687979
Yay phoneposting

>or even particularly competent
>shot in the spine

>>52687082

The only thing that defines a serial killer is the speed at which he kills. I don't remember the exact numbers, but basically if you bring a shotgun to the mall and kill 12 people you're a spree killer. If you kill 12 people separately, over the course of a year, planning out each death meticulously, you're a serial killer.

So the only relevant characteristics of a serial killer are number of people killed, and amount of time between each killing. Technically a hitman who kills people on contract is a serial killer.

>>52688041
>A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people,[1] usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant break (a "cooling off period") between them.[1][2]

>>52688543

Yeah, I figured. Just didn't feel like adding "serial killer" to the list of stuff I googled this week.

>>52686271

>High Concept: Son of God, Destined Savior of humanity.
>Trouble: Can't get along with merchants

>>52687533

One Punch Man also has the defense that it's a parody of action anime and Saitama being impossibly overpowered is the punchline to a lot of jokes.

>>52684499
This. If we start going down this "sliding scale of autism" crap, we dilute the meaning.

>>52684499
Sues can also have flaws. The thing about them is that they are endearing.

>>52684358
Fuck no.

>>52687282
Yet I would still argue pre-teen Anakin isn't a Sue, on the grounds that The Phantom Menace doesn't really pay him any special attention, outside of his contributions to the overall plot. Other characters acknowledge his deeds and potential, but it's never in the slavish, pandering way that a Sue usually recieves. If memory serves, most of the Jedi Council are skeptical of Anakin's status as the Chosen One - he has to earn their respect.

But again, that's more because of poor writing - TPM doesn't pay *any* of its characters any special attention. There's a serious lack of clear protagonists in that film, or a clear central conflict. It's tough to say how Anakin might have fared if TPM had actually been written well, but I'd say he actually comes off relatively well, despite the film's overall flaws.

>>52689087
Well they're job interview flaws.
>I just work too hard
>I care too much
>I always think I'm right

>>52689271
>wins podrace no human has ever won before
>first time in a fighter plane blows up entire space station of bad guys

Yeah nah, get your personal biases out of the way. I've never seen the new star wars movies but I'm sure she receives the same treatment

>>52689317
>wins podrace no human has ever won before
Because humans have shit reflexes, but Anakin had the Force to shore up that weakspot.
>>irst time in a fighter plane blows up entire space station of bad guys
By accident, not because he was good at it.

>>52689317
Meanwhile, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon duel with a Sith warrior, Amidala and her bodyguards retake Naboo's royal palace, and Jar-Jar leads the Gungans in a giant battle as a diversion.

Every character contributes in the climax. TPM has a mountain of flaws, but placing undue emphasis on Anakin is not one of them. It might have been better if it had, come to think of it, but that's a whole other argument.

>>52689389
>most midclorins ever
Destiny outside of his own actions, chosen one just because.
>by accident
So his flaws don't actually hinder him. They help. He's so incompetent he wins because he's the one who wins.

Sounds sue.

>>52689468
>Destiny outside of his own actions, chosen one just because.
Welcome to Fantasy fiction, don't eat the fairy food
>So his flaws don't actually hinder him. They help. He's so incompetent he wins because he's the one who wins.
His flaws are that he's an overeager child who nearly got himself killed. Because of destiny, he wins, because this is a fantasy story, and destiny wins. You cannot fight Fate.

>>52689437

Yet people say that Rey is a mary sue when Finn honestly does a LOT more in the Climax than she does. She engages with her personal story but affects the actual main plot very little other than 'Being there too'.

>>52684358
Yes

>>52685906
>Reygay

Wasnt he Jarlaxle's pet psion?

>>52689468
Having high midichlorians is the ONLY thing Anakin has going for him, though. Everyone else is either a space-knight, space-royalty, a droid, or a lucky idiot. Take away his Force gift, and Anakin is just a child mechanic in way over his head.

>>52689539
I would also argue that Rey isn't a Sue either. She's just really badly written in general. Her motives are incoherent and confusing, and her Force powers are a total ass-pull, but like Anakin, no-one in TFA is falling over themselves in adoration of her, and there's the vaguest outline of a story arc in her journey. It's just muddled by sloppy plotting and Abrams' obsession with style over substance, making "cool scenes" instead of a coherent, meaningful narrative.

I think most of the people who accuse Rey of being a Sue can feel that there's shit that's wrong with TFA, but they don't know how to articulate that feeling. So they latch onto what they do know (Mary Sues) and trumpet it to the heavens. Their instincts are right. It's just their conclusion that's awry.

>>52689685

>her Force powers are a total ass-pull

I think we just call that 'Force powers'.

>>52689705
t. someone who has never seen Star Wars

>>52684675
>cocaine addict that often mistreats people and acts like a jackass, even to the only person that spends a good deal of time with him

Sherlock Holmes has enough flaws to justify not being a Sue. He's not a perfect, idealized person. He's just REALLY good at his job, which is fitting for the story. Herakles isn't a Mary Sue, even though he's the strongest man that ever lived.

>>52689705
I meant an ass-pull in that they come out of nowhere, with no prior setup or explanation.

Anakin is established to have Force powers before the podrace. It's clear that all the Jedi masters are trained in the ways of the Force. And Luke is shown training with Obi-Wan. None of the Force powers demonstrated by these characters are gained on the spot. They all have clear setups.

Rey doesn't. She uses the Force like a master, without any prior instruction or training. She's shown using extremely specific Force powers, without even the excuse that she heard stories of Jedi doing similar things. She's never picked up a lightsaber in her life, yet can best a trained swordsman on her first go. It's a huge asspull.

But that doesn't make her a Sue. It just makes her a badly-written protagonist.

>If Rey was a male character he'd be categorized as 'boring' instead of mary sue but instead she gets sperged on because muh strong female character

>>52689498
>you can not fight #4,5 and 6 being made first
I know the thematic constraints. I'm saying he has specific characteristics of a sue. Are you trying to say there's a dividing line where the character becomes a sue when they get fate/destiny but aren't the fated one?

Also we're all making a weird mistake of thinking rpg characters are equivalent to other forms of fiction.

>>52689717

I've seen plenty of star wars.

I wasn't hugely impressed by TFA (They played it really safe so it ended up very similar to ANH) but I wouldn't really call her force powers any more of an asspull than what Anakin or Erza has managed.

Her main thing was getting into the mind of someone who already was linked to her mind-to-mind and pulling off a jedi mind trick (Not even on the first try). Ezra on the other hand was doing Force Pushing/Bullshit Jedi Acrobatics without prior training in high stress moments and Anakin was so good at precog he somehow won that race despite starting multiple minutes behind everyone else with a pod racer made of junk parts.

It's more than what Luke did early on but then, Obi-Wan and Anakin in later movies pull off more than what Obi-Wan and Darth Vader did in ANH too. That's mostly a difference in production.

>>52689833

>She's never picked up a lightsaber in her life, yet can best a trained swordsman on her first go. It's a huge asspull.

A swordsman who had been shot in the gut (And the movie shows several times that it's still bleeding), taking a hit in a prior fight AND is in the middle of a mental breakdown. She had basically every advantage she could and she still spent most of the fight losing.

They had a fight earlier in the movie too when he was healthy in body and mind. He utterly shitkicked her with a single motion.

>>52689685

>no-one in TFA is falling over themselves in adoration of her

I'd argue Fin and Kylo do, which is fine because they're the main characters and that shit happens. Orange Yoda is as well, but that's Force bullshit and everyone gets special when the Force is involved.

It's Han's sudden attachment to her that I think really rubs people the wrong way since it actively fights against his character. He's always had a surly outer shell and barely trusts anyone, yet when Rey gets involved he starts blowing her fairly quickly and even invites her on as a partner. This is also after she super quickly learns how to pilot the Falcon after being a malnourished desert scrounger with no experience in starships.

Then again, I also agree that I don't think she's that much of a Mary Sue and that really the whole movie was weirdly disjointed and poorly put together, which isn't surprising since they basically slammed episode 4 into 7 so hard that it just became a shittier rehash for 4.

Plus if we want to get into annoying forced diversity shit in 7, I'd rather complain about how we were supposed to be sucking Phasma's dick for being a strong, independent trooper who needed no man only to have her say like 5 lines and literally dumpstered. What was the fucking point? Why even make merch of her?

>>52689873

Yeah. I'd call her 'A bit dull and in need of more development' myself.

Finn got his motivations a LOT more explored and was much more crucial to the plot. Her stuff mostly felt like 'We want to set her up for later movies'. Sorta like how Darth Bitchfits wasn't actually important in the climax but it set him up for later stuff.

>>52689873

Jyn Erso is the boring one. Rey is at least somewhat charismatic. And they call her a sue for having inexplicably good competence, not for being too boring.

>>52687762
They're a self insert that warps the narrative around themselves to cater to the author's wish fulfillment.

>>52689910
I was in the room at comiccon 2015 when they were verbally fella ting Gwendolyn Christie over MUH STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS ASS KICKER

My main concern was how the fuck they were gonna have any time left for the side characters like Hux or Phasma when they had three title characters and you knew the legacy characters were bound to have some screen time also.

Lo and behold she is completely irrelevant. Given the amount of cheering when she was announced though, they played the hype train pretty well.

>>52686271
He didn't ransack it, he neither stole nor sought after something in hurry. He cleansed the temple of the profane.

Theft is bad, horse-whipping people for selling birds is A-OK.

Almost all of Kafka's characters were basically self-inserts and he was one of the best writers ever. Being both a great author and depressed man, he focused his flaws into them heavily and made them relatable and likable in the face of shit like The Castle and turning into a Bug and and the whole law process of The Trial etc.

I think it takes a really good writer or at least some sort of inner effectiveness to write a good self insert character.

On Luke Skywalker, he was a whiny little teen when the movie starts. He goes through temptation, gets angry, etc. He doesn't get his powers instantly and develops them over the movies after training. I think one great scene is when he tries to get the X-wing out of the swamp and he just cant seem to do it. He has to really reflect on things and develop himself to move forward.

>>52687466
>Did we even watch the same movie?
You obviously haven't seen it at all.

This is the classic defense. You can't refute Rey's obvious Mary Sue status so you try to drag Luke into it. This has already been addressed and you are very wrong.

>>52684511
>What del Toro is saying is equivalent to, "a character's serial killer-ness is a sliding scale."
And how many bodies have your favorite actionmovie characters racked up?

Anyone who killed as often or as readily as your typical RPG character would be viewed as a psychopath.

>>52693653
That typically depends on the context of the killings, though, in a world like today's, that is correct.

>>52689903
>A swordsman who had been shot in the gut (And the movie shows several times that it's still bleeding), taking a hit in a prior fight AND is in the middle of a mental breakdown.
Wouldn't this just make him stronger? I was under the impression that the Dark Side is fueled by pain, and Kylo was feeling a lot of it at that point.

>>52687282
>Mind you, going just by first move vs first movie

Something you absolutely should not do.
We already knew how Anakin turned out when viewing the Phantom menace. The bright vibrant child should contrast the crippled old warrior in your mind.

>>52694043
Fueled by hate, he was TRYING to turn the pain into hate but failing because he was a fuckboy in emotional turmoil.

I think Del Toro has a point. A bad character who would be a mary sue might me more less be indicative of a bad character and might be more a indication of a bad narrative tone or just a bad story.
I think often Sue is a term people tend to just give to a character they don't personally like.
This also explains why sues are the most hated type of character around the gaming table is because often times the presence of such characters undermines the rest of the party.
A sue character has a hard time working in a game like shadow run where everyone is supposed to be working as a team. When a player plays one they directly run against the tone and genre of that game. HOWEVER a Sue character might work well in a game like exalted where that is the entire point of the game.

>>52694043

In the movie you see that his ability to use the darkside well is VERY flawed. Vader was fuelled by hate and pain but it was a very focused thing. Darth Bitchfits was lashing out constantly and at everything about him when things didn't go well.

>>52694176

>Darth Bitchfits

Did Ren ever earn the title of Darth? I don't think he was a full fledged Sith. Makes his ability to stop a plasma bolt in the air for so long that bit more impressive.

>>52694250

the powerlevels were all over the place in that movie.

Ren was simultaneously a super badass with the blaster freeze but also supposed to obviously be conflicted emotionally and kind of pathetic

Rey was supposed to be ANH Luke-tier "barely ever even heard of the Force" but keeps pulling out advanced tricks anyway

>>52686881
Being overpowered and lacking flaws does not a Mary Sue make, it's whatever traits such character has that impedes the tone of the narrative that makes them.

>>52694290

Yeah, I think a lot of the Mary-Sue accusations come from that powerlevel shit. I feels like they tried to squeeze an entire trilogies worth of power gain into half a movie.

Ren was a badass until he took off his helmet though, and Vader stole the entirety of Rogue One with only two scenes worth of screen time.

>>52689903
>A swordsman who had been shot in the gut (And the movie shows several times that it's still bleeding), taking a hit in a prior fight AND is in the middle of a mental breakdown. She had basically every advantage she could and she still spent most of the fight losing.
It's Sasuke v Itachi all over again. Especially since Kylo Ren does not act like someone with a serious injury. At no point does he behave like someone who is both injured and physically exerting themselves.

>>52684599
The term derived from a satirical Star Trek fan fiction back in the 70's poking fun at bad self-insert characters fan fiction authors frequently created for Star Trek, where a flawless girl named Mary Sue was the newest shipmate aboard the enterprise and quickly became the center of the crew's affections and could do anything.

In other words, it is a character whose purpose is some level of wish-fulfillment by an author who creates a character that steals the spotlight and disrupts the tone of the story so they can live out their fantasies vicariously.

>>52694386
>gets to use anakin and luke's lightsaber
>gets to pilot the falcon and then just fucking take it
>gets to use force powers
>gets to wear obi-wan's clothes
Sounds like vicarious fantasies to me

>>52694290

>Rey was supposed to be ANH Luke-tier "barely ever even heard of the Force" but keeps pulling out advanced tricks anyway

I think part of the issue well...we don't know how advanced the tricks are BUT the EU has sorta left us conditioned to think that mind-affecting stuff is pretty advanced.

I think they intend for them to be a fair bit more simple than the EU treated them, what with Erza picking up mind tricks real damn fast and using them constantly. That and his 'Didn't even finish padawan training' master having them as a basic trick.

>>52686039
>Anakin and especially Luke
>Mary Sues

I guess every protagonist is a Mary Sue, then.

>>52694368

>It's Sasuke v Itachi all over again.

What?

>Especially since Kylo Ren does not act like someone with a serious injury.

They linger several times on his bloody hands, blood dripping on the ground or the mark he leaves when he leans against a tree briefly.

He's also staggering about a lot more than he was in previous fight scenes. It seemed pretty damn clear to me when I watched it.

>>52694421
>we don't know how advanced the tricks are BUT the EU has sorta left us conditioned to think that mind-affecting stuff is pretty advanced.
Luke wasn't using mind tricks until Return. According to the official timeline, that's 4 years after he saw one for the first time, and 1 year after he started training with not just any Jedi Master, but Yoda himself. If it took him an entire year to get the mind trick right with the best Jedi of his very long age teaching him, it should take Rey a bit longer than...well, no time at all.
>>52694456
Naruto reference. Sasuke is fresh, hale and hearty, and motivated to win and kill his opponent. Itachi is exhausted, dying, nearly blind, and throwing the fight so as not to hurt his opponent too badly.
Itachi had Sasuke up against a figurative and sometimes literal wall the entire fight.

>>52694514

Yeah, hence why I said 'I think they intend'. Erza picks them up very rapidly and they were a trick that Kanan already knew, despite never finishing his padawan training.

Which I think is part of the issue. Force powers in the original trilogy are VASTLY different in dramatics than force powers in the Prequel Trilogy/Video Games/TV Series/EU.

So the exact details of how hard something is often gets a bit iffy when Luke was working hard to call his lightsaber with the force on Hoth but NoNameMcMookJedi can jump 20m and force push without too much issue in the TV series.

>>52694555
>Force powers in the original trilogy are VASTLY different in dramatics than force powers in the Prequel Trilogy/Video Games/TV Series/EU.
>dramatics
You've hit the nail on the head. Shamus Young called the Force "magic that is literally powered by drama" because of it's connection to emotional states and social interactions.

OT is like LOTR: magic is pretty lowkey, like what Gandalf mostly did, until ZAP MOTHERFUCKA
PT is a wuxia tale mixed with Romance of the Three Kingdoms: everyone is kungfu fighting and flipping 17 types in the air and landing on a single block of cheese

>>52689539
The metric to measure a Sue is not how much they contribute to the plot, its how much their presence unduly warps the plot around them. Rey has several sue-moments (I won't say such the whole movie because the whole moving reeks of being written by committee, so every character tends to have wild swings in tone). Such as how she just happens upon the Millennium Falcon, just as Han and Chewie show up and want her to be their first mate cause she's just that cool I guess. Or how she just happens to have a great connection to the force and specifically items owned by Luke Skywalker cause she totally isn't related to him or anything. Or how the Kylo Ren just happens to become totally obsessed with her and just has to have this Literally-Who force-sensitive like she's the most important person ever. Stuff like that, the narrative just warping around her for the hell of it even if it messes with the tone or plot, is what makes a Sue.

>>52689903
>They had a fight earlier in the movie too when he was healthy in body and mind. He utterly shitkicked her with a single motion.

that was before she uncocked her potential. then suddenly she inexplicably uncocks it and goes on to spontaneously reverse his mindrape back at him, making him look like an impotent little bitch who couldn't get it up to save his life without even having to shoot him first, before mind-controlling her way out of there like she was a 60 years old master jedi rather than someone who didn't even think the force existed mere days ago

100% she would've wrecked his ass in that saber fight even if he just stepped out of a relaxing steam bath following an energizing full-body massage

>>52692568
So she's a Rule 63 Boba Fett. Cool-looking minor characters who exist solely for merchandising isn't exactly a first for Star Wars.

>>52694724

>before mind-controlling her way out of there like she was a 60 years old master jedi rather than someone who didn't even think the force existed mere days ago

I don't think the master jedi would have failed the first time. Anyway: Her force shenanigans are still more low key than Ezra's (Even before training he threw someone across the room with the force a couple of times.)

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>>52694421
>>52694555

>Erza
>Kanan

>>52694646

Yeah, which is why I often have issues with the whole 'Her force powers powers make her a mary sue'. The force has never been remotely consistent with it's depiction. It's all about the story.

There isn't really a hard and fast 'X is particularly difficult' and the same two characters fighting each other in two different movies don't work remotely the same with the force stuff they do. Let alone other characters.

>>52694856
Don't worry, they aren't canon anymore.

Reminder that 99% of EU is monetized fanfiction and deserved to be nuked after 40+ years of running amuck.

>>52694856

Ezra Bridger and Kanan Jarrus. Two of the protagonists of Star Wars: Rebels. One of the big things that makes up the current Canon.

>>52694899

Actually, they are canon. Made after the nuking.

>>52694928
How long until you think EU is nuked again? Another 40 years? In preparation for Ep. 8?

I just want Based Revan canon again ;_;

>>52694889
It was hardly just the force powers that made her a mary sue. In almost every scene she was in she was the best person in the room at everything she tried her hands at, including the things other people were specialized in. She was a godlike pilot unlike anything seen in the series up to that point, her insane flight with the millenium falcon making her better than or at least as good as whatisface. A better brawler than anyone she encounters, including the ex-stormtrooper main character. A better marksman than the stormtroopers she encounters, whom she guns down trivially. Better understanding of the millenium falcon than Han Solo himself; probably better than chewie as well. Spoke ten billion languages. Could repair or hack any piece of hardware she came across. Broke herself out of imprisonment like it was no big deal. Then of course she out-force-powered the best force-user she came across after just learning about the force then beat him in a lightsaber fight as well for good measure. Probably a bunch of stuff I forgot as well.

>>52695084

>A better brawler than anyone she encounters, including the ex-stormtrooper main character.

...we never saw them fight. She also had exactly...one melee brawl (Outside the lightsaber duel at the end) with a pushy asshole who the movie doesn't says has any military training himself.

Said lightsaber duel had her almost lose despite having basically every single advantage she could on her side.

>>52686952
>capitalists
Money lenders that profane the sacred temple with their ursury, you commie filth

>>52686355
A major point of Paul's character is that for someone with vast power, he paradoxically has very little actual agency, so his characterization naturally seems a bit flat. But even within that it's easy to see that he's a generally good natured person who would be happy with a simple life. That's why his power weighs on him so much, and why he tries to escape it.

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>>52694966
He already is.

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>>52695758
Yeah Jesus loved capitalism

>>52696147
No he isn't, not yet, and Revan was just a fucking sue after the games were over.

>>52696254
>Mandalorian Wars not only confirmed to be real but confirmed to be lost to the Jedi in a landslide

You think they're just gonna come up with a new Sue?

>>52696295
No, they don't need one, especially not Revan, I loved playing him, but if they go the Revan route seeing another writer fuck it up even more than Bioware and it's associated employees have, it would seriously just piss me off. I sincerely hope they do something new because as interesting as revan was, he was literally an Anakin carbon copy fights a war and falls to the dark in the process, difference is not even love could save him, because he had nobody before a mind wipe.

>>52694421
>the EU has sorta left us conditioned to think that mind-affecting stuff is pretty advanced.

No the main films did a perfectly good job of that, Luke doesn't use any sort of mind trickery until the very last film in the original trilogy despite having first seen it in the first movie. By TFA logic he should've just mind controlled all those stormtroopers into handing over Leia.

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>>52684358

These posts, >>52684446 and >>52684450 basically got it right so I'm just gonna post the worst case of a Mary-sue I can think of.

Pretty sure it's intentional though at this point so as to facilitate a self-insertion power fantasy.

>>52684358

Calling a character a Mary Sue implies a lack of personality beyond "perfect" traits, so I'd have to disagree.
Wish fulfillment through strong characters is perfectly fine - you don't get too many stories about janitorial work, after all. Some things and some people are just more interesting than others. We humans just prefer our heroes to be human, which in turn requires personality and, inevitably, flaws.

>>52684358

In the context he, and critics of Rey, are using the term, he is absolutely right, but they are both misusing the term.

>>52684358
The problem is that people are getting Sues and non sues mixed up. "Oh this character can do something noone else can do? They MUST be a sue even though they have all these other obvious character flaws!"

Calling a character a Mary Sue is like calling someone a cuck on 4chan, it's overused and has lost all meaning,

>>52694456
>They linger several times on his bloody hands, blood dripping on the ground
So? Kylo does not fight like a person who is injured. In fact his way of swinging his sword would indicate that he's entirely healthy.

>>52696675
>By TFA logic he should've just mind controlled all those stormtroopers into handing over Leia.
When does anyone in TFA ever exert control over more than one person at a time? Rey, after having been intimately connected with the better trained Kylo Ren's mind, manages to pull it on a single trooper. Ren himself does a little probing, don't know if that freezing trick is mind control or physical control. And that's it, yeah? No one mind controls the troopers to stop their assault on Maz's castle or anything. You're grasping at straws there buddy.

>>52697114
You might want to rethink that. His 'sword' has no (or marginal) weight, he can move it without the same exertion of, say, a knight with a ten pound broadsword in the same situation.

>>52697173
>gyroscopic forces don't affect handling.
Check out this nerf herder.

>>52697173
It's not that he's able to swing it effortlessly. It's that he's not fighting the way an injured man would. He's careless and aggressive. Normally when you're injured you become more defensive and careful.

You might say something stupid about the dark side bluh bluh fueled by rage bluuuuh. But that still doesn't work as the OT handled this much better. When Vader was struck down by Luke in Return he was just feebly defending himself, he didn't try to make some kind of retarded swing right back at him.

>>52697237
>He's careless and aggressive.
Because he's fucking pissed and is trying to end the fight before he passes out from bloodloss.

>>52689833
>She's never picked up a lightsaber in her life, yet can best a trained swordsman on her first go.
One of my favourite things about TFA - and this goes over the heads of so many casual critics - is that in the beginning of that fight she is wielding the lightsaber in the same manner as she wields her staff. She isn't trying to 'cut' with it, she tries to jab with it, and catches Kylo's strikes on the tip as you would if you were stave-fighting. She doesn't know shit about lightsaber fighting, she just picks up a weapon and tries to use it in the manner which she's used to, and she's on the back-foot almost the entire fight.

When she does turn it around, it's only after a pretty obvious 'use the force' moment. You can tell it's happening, because Kylo says the words 'the force' and then she closes her eyes while the Skywalker theme swells in the background. After that she starts fighting properly.

Now, we saw earlier in the film that she was able to access the memories of the previous owners of the lightsaber when she touched it. It's not too great a leap of logic to think she could access some of the fighting abilities of those previous owners as well, so long as she used the force to do so.

This last bit, about accessing the skills of previous owners of things, also explains most of Rey's character. She doesn't fly well, until she's spent some time on the Falcon's console, perhaps tapping into the flying skill of Han or Chewie. She doesn't fight well, until she's had some time to tap into the fighting skill of Luke or Anakin. This could be her talent: accessing the impressions of people left on objects. It even has an in-universe name: Force Psychometry.

>>52697264
Nah man, that's how he always fought. There was no thought behind it.

>>52697237
What part of Kylo Ren's character previously established in that film makes you think that he's a rational person, who will fight in a rational manner?

>>52687533
Well, Drizzt is basically the medieval John Wick, so...

>>52686254
Spike Spiegel

>>52684450
>Personally i think people use the term too liberally which reduces its effectiveness as a label

Same goes for all the -ISMS in fact if we take a look at the current politics.

Getting called a racist nazi has lost the edge is slowly becoming a meaningless insult due to people going on about micro-aggressions and how much of a Hitler you are for asking from which country someone is from.

>>52697237

>fights like a fucking idiot

Did you even watch the movie? Of course Kylo Ren fights like a fucking idiot. He IS a fucking idiot.

>>52692568
>verbally fellating Gwendolyn Christie

do you...do you know what "fellating" means?

or do you know something about Christie that we don't?

>>52697276

Honestly, if they make that officially stated it would be pretty cool.

Though honestly I'd really like to see her get a more glaive-like lightsaber. It's a cool look that would fit well with her prior staff experience.

>>52694514
>Luke wasn't using mind tricks until Return. According to the official timeline, that's 4 years after he saw one for the first time, and 1 year after he started training with not just any Jedi Master, but Yoda himself. If it took him an entire year to get the mind trick right with the best Jedi of his very long age teaching him, it should take Rey a bit longer than...well, no time at all.

I can't imagine how Yoda would teach Luke mind tricks given they have nobody to practice them on.

>>52697276
Or she could just be badly-written, by a writer and director who has gone on record saying that he was more interested in creating cool individual scenes than any kind of coherent narrative.

>>52697629
Yeah but there's other people realizing the next movies and they could very well decide to retroactively use that explanation, just the same way Vader retroactively became Luke father

>>52697443

In Rebels the kid Ezra uses mind tricks on animals, and Degobah has plenty of wildlife to practice on. Obviously it's not as direct as human testing, but if you imbue the right idea then the student should be able to extrapolate to a more advanced target.

>>52697629
>he thinks 100% of realizing a film comes down to the writer/director

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>>52684358

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>>52693653

I'll have you know that a man can kill an entire town's worth of people without being a psychopath!

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>>52697968
Have an actually non-retarded response to the retarded shit you posted.

>>52684499
Conan the Barbarian does not have any flaws relevant to the stories he stars in, is the best at everything he does (from combat to ninja, from sailing to being a king), and is generally considered an awesome character.

A Mary Sue is simply a character the author is both in love with and incapable of getting the audience to agree. Any character can be a Mary Sue if written by a sufficiently incompetent nitwit, but no character is inherently one. But obviously some are more challenging to write well than others.

There are no Mary Sues, only writers who fall short of their characters.

>>52697132
>When does anyone in TFA ever exert control over more than one person at a time?
When does anyone in any Star Wars film up til TFA display the ability to use jedi mind tricks with absolutely no training whatsoever beforehand? It's the force bitch I ain't gotta explain shit!

>You're grasping at straws there buddy.
Or maybe I was exaggerating things to further emphasize my point. The fact you couldn't pick up on that and then chose to take what I'd posted extraordinarily seriously indicates you may have autism.

>>52697173
>knight
>ten pound broadsword
How did nobody sperg out at this already?

>>52698339
Mmm Conan had some poor judgement sometimes regarding alcohol and women, in that order, with got him in trouble, but then he usually got out of it by virtue of being awesome. Some times he just had sheer luck and didn't die. Its a flaw if it doesnt really fuck you up? Its plot armor having "luck" the few times you really were going to die?

Genuinely asking.

>>52698478
>When does anyone in any Star Wars film up til TFA display the ability to use jedi mind tricks with absolutely no training whatsoever beforehand? It's the force bitch I ain't gotta explain shit!

When does anyone TRY without training? I mean, we've no evidence either way about the amount of training that force stuff takes and Ezra does a pretty good job of showing off that you can do force stuff without training (Considering he ragdolls storm troopers with the force before he gets any training)

>>52698506
>I mean, we've no evidence either way about the amount of training that force stuff takes
Given the fact there was an entire order of warrior monks dedicated to training people in how to use their force powers I'd assume there probably does involve some amount of training.

>MUH EZRA
Nobody cares!

>>52698552

>Nobody cares!

Why not? He's a canon example of using force powers without training without being a chosen one like Ani.

>>52698555
>Why not?
Because he's an irrelevant side character that most people have never heard of, you really think most of the people ITT had a clue who you were talking about when you were just using the name by itself without context? You really think he can be placed on the same level as Luke? The fact you have to reach for such an obscure example just shows how weak your case is.

>He's a canon example of using force powers without training without being a chosen one like Ani.
And he's also an extremely recent example from when after Disney took over the franchise and drove it right into a brick wall.

>>52698628
>And he's also an extremely recent example from when after Disney took over the franchise and drove it right into a brick wall.

Absolutely nothing in Rebels can even be half as bad or retarded as 2/3 of the EU, so even if you combine Rebels + TFA + Rogue 1, it's still a net gain.

>>52698800
>MUH EU

Nobody cares you autismo.
Movies only.

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>>52687397
>can't write or direct

>>52693258
Sometimes even the Son of God has to kick arse ... FOR THE LORD!

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>>52698628
>after Disney took over the franchise and drove it right into a brick wall.

>>52684358
I think what he's really saying here is that many of the traits that people attribute to Mary Sues are not negative. This is true.

A character that can do something special, for example, is not a bad thing. I wouldn't call them a Sue simply for that, but many people would.

>>52698810
>Movies only.

If TFA and R1 is being driven into a brick wall, then the prequels went full fucking Torquemada on the franchise.

The Disney foster home might not be seventh heaven for SW, but compared to the abusive meth head parenting it suffered at the hands of George...

>>52699051
>Legitimately believing the Disney movies are better than the prequels.

Sad.

>>52699080
Redditdrone detected.

>>52699196
>Supports souless Disney schlock
>Accuses others of being Reddit

>>52684599
Mary Sue was an original character in a comedy fanfic of Star Trek, she was the best at everything, everyone loved her and she had a dramatic death where she sacrificed herself to save the Enterprise.
It was a satire stand-up of the many self-insert fanfic that had come before.
The name, Mary Sue, was taken to be a short-hand to refer to all such characters. Who turn the entire story around to be 'their' story in exclusion to the story itself.
It's a loosely defined term that is often used to brand something as 'bad' without providing an actual reason, or to even avoid as to providing one.

>>52686271
The temple is justified.
Cursing an out-of-season fig tree to death for the crime of being out-of-season on the other hand.

>>52699519
Fucking figs. Never play by the rules, that lot. Somebody oughta give 'em a what for.

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>>52684358
Jesus, we can't talk about the usefulness of Mary/Gary Sues before we agree on a fucking definition.

Until then this thread is pointless.

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>>52684358
i've read the words "sliding scale that enables tone/genre narrative choice" like ten times now and i can't parse it.

how does a character being an overpowered self-insert enable tone? tone is how the work feels, it comes from the prose/visuals/audio.

other than trying to troll nerds who use the term "mary sue" too much, i'm not sure what his point is?

>>52686271
What's wrong with trying to stop the commodification of religion? Also, ransacking is kind of a weasel word that implies Jesus stole from the temple, which He did not.

>>52697912
>He thinks a movie can survive being written by committee and directed by a hack and still be good

>>52700080

Mate if he took some sacks and ran at any point then he ransacked. Not up for debate.

>>52699519
It was a fig tree. They're literally not important. You can go chop one down right now. In fact I think I will. Fucking figs.

>>52700052
Looks like he looked at the guys who were grossly overusing the term, and thought that's what the term's supposed to be all about. So he thinks it's just about the character being extraordinary in all kinds of ways, missing the whole wank fantasy self insert thing.

>>52684888
Somehow I knew this had something to do with Star Wars.

Can Disney just burn to the ground and have all of its IPs become public domain please? I want somone who gives a fuck about Star Wars to make it.

The absolute worst part is that Rey just stole other character's parts.
It would be have far better if Po stayed with Finn so HE could have flown the millenium falcon.
It would have been better if Luke was introduced in the final scene force pulling the saber instead of Rey. It would have been a great scene if you had seen Rey struggling to pull it and it comes flying towards her, then past her and into a hooded figure's hand in the background.

>>52700165
He didn't. He just grabbed a horse whip and started fucking shit up.

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>>52687466
>Luke's big moment
>gets help from an entire fleet, saved from certain death by a friend he previously thought had deserted, and was aided by the force ghost of his dead teacher

>Rey
>gets no direct help from anyone in the final confrontation except maybe Chewie, but even Chewie's blaster bolt only made Kylo angry
>Still wins despite having less experience with a lightsaber then the fucking storm trooper

That's on top of every single one of her mistakes being a net positive and her spontaneously gaining force powers without training. By the end of the movie she's as powerful as Anakin was in Episode II sans light saber ability. She's so poorly written it's hilarious.

>>52697968

While I'm not certain I agree with the gender based conclusions of this post, I DO agree with a lot of it. Batman and, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Conan are perfect examples of brazenly Mary Sue characters. Batman's closest thing to a flaw is 'he's secretly a jerk and also kind of arrogant', but for literally DECADES this never came up.

I think it has a lot more to do with the internet giving pseudo intellectuals access to a wider array of information than anything else, like basically every fucking problem that's come up socially for the last fucking decade.

>>52700165

He did not, but this is still an underrated post.

>>52700260
>It would have been better if Luke was introduced in the final scene force pulling the saber instead of Rey. It would have been a great scene if you had seen Rey struggling to pull it and it comes flying towards her, then past her and into a hooded figure's hand in the background
That's so hackneyed that it hurts.

>>52698628

>Obscure.
>Currently airing star wars series.

>>52700350

>gets no direct help from anyone in the final confrontation except maybe Chewie, but even Chewie's blaster bolt only made Kylo angry

...he was bleeding everywhere throughout the entire fight and he'd already taken a hit in the fight with Finn.

>>52697309
Which John Wick? because I would argue that Drizzt qualifies as neither, and anyone who had actually read any of the books would know this.

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>>52686254
pic-related, I guess

Another way of doing it, though I can't think of any examples right now, is where rather than the character changing over the course of a work, the audience just finds out more about them. That probably wouldn't work in tabletop tho

>>52684358
No, Mary Sue is an unambiguously bad label that people have erroneously started applying to anything that is even vaguely grandiose. It isn't just a goddamn descriptor, it is literally an insult, a direct accusation of poor quality.

Fuck off with this apologism.

>>52699519
That was arguably a prophecy/analogy combo for the Jewish people who did not accept him as Messiah.

>>52684358

Nowadays people use the term to mean "character is competent and capable".

So it's kind of lost its meaning as a negative label.

>>52708514
Being that he wasn't real and there is no such thing as any kind of god or a son of a god, I'd say that it doesn't matter.

>>52684358
Rey is a shitty unpleasant character because of her sueness.

>>52711574
Wait a sec,
What religion or philosophy do you guys proscribe to?

>>52686039
Yes because a farm boy who's good at shooting creatures that are about the size of the exhaust port on the death star being able to put a torpedo into the exhaust port on the death star is direct equivalent of Rey being able to fix a ship she has no fucking experience with and no engineering knowledge of better than the guy who owned it for decades.

But you do have a decent second point.

>>52711638
There is no proof of Jesus being alive at all in any historical records that aren't part of the bible, or dated to a time long after he was supposed to have lived and died, there are no birth records, no death records no proof at all that a mythical carpenter existed and being that he was supposed to have lived and died in a Roman province, that's extraordinarily unlikely.

>>52711692
>Rey being able to fix a ship she has no fucking experience with and no engineering knowledge of better than the guy who owned it for decades.

The movie explicitly states she's spent years playing around with the Falcon's internals. The example of her having "better understanding than Han himself" is her being aware of an idiot mod the junkyard alien installed because she was personally there for its installation. Han had no idea it was there and had no reason to suspect so in the first place.

I used to love Mary Sue threads. We'd all get together and laugh about cringey Sonic OCs and other stupid stuff. Now it's just a bunch of bitter spergs who just spew cuastic venom about a character whose greatest narrative sin is she's predictable and kind of boring.

>>52711724
Well I'm not arguing with you, however it was like 2017 years ago. It's a miracle we have any records from that time period. And like a lot of people wrote about him, I think it is a bit more far fetched to say he didn't exist than even if he did but wasn't what he said he was

>>52711799
>Christianity started 2017 years ago
Nigger do you even time?

>>52711830
Yea 1 AD was the canonical birth of Christ
...right?

>>52711881
>Religions start at the exact birth of their head
No.

>>52711799
No, like 3 people, at most, wrote about him. All of them were born after he was supposed to have died, and they're all second hand sources not direct records from a first hand account. It's also really not a miracle that we have records from Rome because the Romans had very thorough records and many of them are still in existence today. It is not a far fetched idea to claim he didn't exist at all because there is nothing written or recorded about him until about 90 AD at the absolute earliest.
>>52711881
No, 0 AD was a year, although, I'm pretty sure nobody used the AD system until Emporer Constantines time, which was about 300 AD give or take.

>>52711914
But like all twelve of his apostles wrote about him.
But due to the craziness of the Roman Catholics and just time in general we lost like 8 of them.
Plus i count four John, Matthew, Mark, Luke

>>52712036
There is no proof that any of the assholes you pointed out there existed either, because, and here is the shocker, the bible isn't a historical record, it is a book of mythology.

>>52684358
Yes, Gary Stu could be an excellent Flash Gordon type, but a miserable read in stories meant to be about flawed people fucking their lives up like Fight Club or Trainspotting.

>>52712036
Implicit bias

>>52712088
Due to that book of mythology though we know a little bit more about those fishermen and carpenters then bob the random fisherman.

We know that all of the the Bobs the fisherman existed even though we have no records of there lives.

Even though some parts of the Bible are false. The book is not blatantly fiction, and shows us the life's and works of some normal people of that time period.

It's kind of conspiracy theorizing to just say that there is no way nor proof that they could have ever existed, because we have at least a pinch of proof that they probably did

>>52712389
Buck up on your English skills there, Anon.

And, No, the entire book is false, it tells us abso-fucking-lutely nothing about the lives of anyone in any time period it's books describe, period. I can tell you this, because no historian worth their salt, thinks what you do.

It's not conspiracy theorizing, the conspiracy existed for at most 2000 years more likely 1700, because the most powerful organized religions both suppressed and held back historical and scientific advancement quite openly, and not all of the reasons they did so are clear, and, in fact, some of them still try.

>>52712389
>We know that all of the the Bobs the fisherman existed even though we have no records of there lives.

You are monstrously incorrect.

It was extraordinarily easy to fake an identity up until modern times and even to an extent still is. Criminals could get away with impersonation for decades without even a chance their identities being compromised. The idea of ordinary people existing in a narrative being proof of the narrative is farcical, and is exactly why Socrates opposed the teaching of Homer. A fiction is still a fiction even if you attempt to frame it in a known time period. The narrative of the bible is in no way proven merely by the fact that the collective peoples of the jews and romans also existed.

>>52712587
>Socrates.
Was a weirdo who was sentenced to death because he simply wouldn't stop placing fedoras on the heads of his city's youth, even when nicely asked.

>>52712679
Sophists get out

>>52700350
I would accept all of that Rey bullshit if they excuse it as her having stolen the knowledge from Kylo.
She was force sensitive but only got this miraculous knowledge after Kylo, who had some knowledge but also is a noob, inadvertedly let her inside his mind, he opened up, taking of his mask and getting unconfortably close to her kinda gave me the feel that he was so eager to get the information and was so used to just toying with weak minds that he probably never learned to defend his minds.

I keep this headcanon anyway, in order to keep my sanity.

>>52713145

Honestly I'd lean towards Rey not being able to mind read like he did solo. She took advantage of his massive psychological instability but he made the connection.

>>52702605
Compared to the actual main films it's obscure as hell.

>>52699051
The prequels still never had people doing jedi mind tricks without any training beforehand, it stuck to the idea that untrained force sensitives are just unnaturally good pilots and that's it, I mean that's all you saw with anakin and luke. Then with rey the fact she's an untrained force sensitive means that she has all the powers, immediately, like a fucking superhero.

Also as bad and incomprehensible as the plots in the prequels were at least those movie actually had their own plots rather then just doing shitty re-treads of the original trilogy but with much worse characters.

So to all the people sperging ITT over the term what should we refer to characters who are so overpowered it ruins the plot as? Should we just call them poorly written and leave it at that? Seems a bit vague, there's lots of ways a character could be poorly written.

>>52713275

Mind you we only see two untrained force sensitive people who are father and son and both manifest in the same way. It's hard to draw hard rules from a small sample size with common links.

>>52684454
And yet that wouldnt be a sue if they were reviled for each trait separately, let alone together.

>>52694411
Star wars is always hard to justify people being or not being sues. The force connects all, and it basically moves the plot however it wants. If rey is powerful enough then force-touched artifacts should litter her path.

>>52713171
I think once he made that connection anything was available for her to get, that is, if he himself was not pushing his mind the wrong way all along, leaving it wide open for any force sensitive to probe him back.
She went for his emotional buttons but It would be a small stretch to have her rip other stuff out.

Sure, this rises the question of why don't Jedi just ... mind meld ... in order to learn the ways of the force? Maybe the process is too painful, to violently pull information out of someone else's mind. Maybe it is way too inclined towards the dark side.

I don't know, I may be just making excuses to make a character that kinda is a mary sue make sense in some way.

>>52713648

Eh, I think it's a reasonable assumption that a mind link flows both ways. As for why Jedi don't do it...I don't think an order that is big on 'No emotional lack of control or intimacy!' is in favor of a situation where you have no ability to hide your emotions and is staggeringly intimate.

>>52713871
They do constantly, it's called a Force Bond, Master and Padawan often forge such a bond without intention and it's strength and the ease with which they form differ from force-sensitive to force-sensitive.

The Jedi also do not dislike or even dicourage intimacy, just attachment, as in valuing something so much you won't let it go. Well, they didn't initially at least, and we do not know why Kylo Ren turned against Luke, if it was over the same fucking shit Anakin fell for, that'd be fucking retarded, and however much disney may, or may not, be fucking it up, I doubt they'd be that fucking stupid.

>>52700221
Tbh I blame Abrams for this shit

>>52685264
Tom Bombadil is simultaneously the least important and most important character in the trilogy; from a story perspective those chapters might as well not exist, but from a worldbuilding perspective he helps show exactly where in the cosmology of Middle Earth Sauron and the Ring sit at.

>>52700221
Nobody can sodomize Star Wars worse than Lucas did. I'm not a huge fan of TFA, but it's hard to be too down on it considering what came before it. Also, if Rey were a one-dimensional, male, action flick, tough guy-type, he'd still get criticism, but I have to believe significantly less of it.

>>52698339
>Conan the Barbarian does not have any flaws relevant to the stories he stars in

>>52698079
There's a kernel of truth in this response, and it's that culture--not women or feminism, but culture--takes a female character as representative. And not just female, it often regards things like race as well. When white men are assumed to be the default, others are tokens, and this hurts everyone, including white men.

And it isn't limited to characters, either. You get a novel or something written by a non-white person or a woman and every literary critic and reviewer will be ready to opine about what it reveals about the "[insert race here] experience" or "woman's perspective" or something. When it gets into culture, people aren't themselves, they're tokenized and made to be stand-ins even if they don't want to be. Not to get academic, but it's what W.E.B. DuBois pointed out in his work _The Souls of Black Folks_ with the concept of double consciousness; in that work, he refers to the problem in which the black person perceives themselves as an individual, but faces a society that sees them as just another black person and attaches all this baggage to that, and a dissonance arises between the two.

The problem with the response is that it sees this state of affairs and assumes that it's natural, instead of being a cultural and historical phenomena. Sarkeesian isn't right, but neither is this guy. Ideally, we're trying to get to the point where all sorts of stories can be told about all sorts of people, but when the current cultural paradigm is to tokenize and attach baggage, that can't happen. And that impoverishes us.

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>>52697968
Batman is kind of a shit character, though.

I kind of get the feeling people mostly kind of enjoy him because he's just a meme. 'Batman can do anything!' It's funny because it's so absurd. He's like squirrel girl except without the self-awareness.

>>52698339
Been a long while since I read anything Conan, but I'm pretty sure he has tons of flaws. He's basically just a really fukken strong guy with above-average (but far from genius) intelligence. He even gets his ass handed to him sometimes, but then his opponent just leaves him for dead or captures him, only for Conan to survive and escape because, well... he's the main character. He also runs away from magic every time he gets the opportunity to do so 'cuz he just can't wrap his mind around that shit.

Pretty sure LOTS of characters in the stories he's in hate his fucking guts too, and whenever he inevitably rises to a leadership position someone usually tries to assassinate him. Then whatever group he ends up leading gets completely destroyed because of his recklessness, sometimes because the guys who hate his guts conspire to make sure he gets fucked over.

Not gonna say he isn't OP as fuck, but the guy is far from perfect. In spite of his awesomeness, pretty much everything he touches turns into shit. Of course, if he didn't fuck up then he'd just keep doing the same shit forever and it'd get really stale.

>>52715150
how is he "not right" if he's saying the same thing you're saying?

>>52697422
When fellatio is metaphorical, the penis can be metaphorical too.

Is this /tv/? Sure looks like it.

>>52717595
How is it /tv/?

>>52711724
>no proof of Jesus being alive at all in any historical records that aren't part of the bible,
You what m8? There are plenty of records about a guy that describes jesus pretty well from the Romans. Jesus, as a dude, is generally agreed upon to be a real person. Committing miracles, however, is something different entirely.

>>52684358
It's twitter man, Del Toro is very decent at his job, so you know he just has a different conception than standardfags.

>>52718819
No there isn't, not until 90 AD are there any fucking historical records, that mention Jesus outside of the fucking bible that is. No, historians do not generally agree that he existed. They only agree that a cult based around a most likely fictional Jew, rose and dominated the world for nearly 2000 years, and the beginnings of it's infiltration of the Roman Heirarchy, happened around 90 AD, there are no other records mentioning Jesus before that year, none at all, and none have been discovered that are earlier than that and they probably did not exist.

>>52718639
whole lot of /tv/tropes jargon

>>52718908
So what? Tvtropes doesn't just cover TV anymore, and hasn't for years. Most, if not all, of their terms are valid, and it can be very useful for prospective writers, whether you dislike their moderation or community is irrelevant.

>>52713436
Like the Falcon, and Luke's Ligtsaber?

>>52684358
I can understand his tweet, and wish to offer a far more expansive and considerate interpretation and counterargument.

>1. Sue-ness is a sliding scale

There are a wide variety of degrees of Sue-ness. Almost all characters have *some* kind of sue-ish trait, whether it is being the most skilled boxer in the world, or the prettiest girl in highschool, or even just the best writer, photographer, poet, or just being raised rich in a loving family, these are positive traits that can be used as a *part* of a definition of a sue.

Now the counterargument: Sue-ness *is* graded on a scale, but that scale only becomes evident once it is tipped to the point of imbalance. Being the prettiest girl in highschool *and* the world's best boxer *and* having your father own 90% of japan *and* being an accomplished omnidisciplinary scientist *and* being dark and brooding because NOBODY UNDERSTANDS YOUR PAIN is well over the tippign point, but you can understand where the problems start to mount, right?

We generally don't call Frodo a Gary Stu, despite the fact that he has, what, three major magical objects in an otherwise low-magic setting? Four if you count the mythril armor. And a sidekick who is impossibly loyal, and he's in charge of carrying the plot mcguffin because he's the only one who can resist it's corruption, as super, special and awesome as his is...

You see how far i have to reach to call Frodo a gary-stu? It's obvious that all his sue-tier traits are grotesquely overshadowed by his non-sue traits.

>2. Mary sue-ness enables tone / genre narrative choice

Ehhhh.... written Mary Sues are more like unhappy accidents of non-proficient writers. I imagine that, in twenty years, our children will be posting YouTube-analogue videos questioning why Twilight and 50 Shades were ever bestselling books / e-book downloads.

>3. Mary Sues are not a quality impediment

Gonna stop you there big DT. Adding a Sue to your story is unquestionably it's downfall.

>>52689685
She was hugged and not chewie after han died.

>>52684358

I honestly don't get what he's trying to say here. I mean, when is a Mary Sue enabling a certain tone?

>>52720016
Who gives a fuck? i never really got the impression tha Leia liked chewie all that much anyway, husbands best friend or not.

>>52698339
Conan gets his ass kicked in his books all the time. He isn't perfect.

>>52715451

He's also really, really bad with money, even if it's just implied.

>and in the end he's even saved by one of his maids

>>52697968
Its like you didn't even watch batman beyond. Bruce is literally a fuck up at everything but being batman and running a company. Every friend leaves him, he's had atleast one of his robins die horribly, another one thinks he's the joker, bat girl won't talk to him after the affair nor does dick. The only person that still puts up with him is terry and even that is just marginally.

>>52715451
>Batman is kind of a shit character, though.
>I kind of get the feeling people mostly kind of enjoy him because he's just a meme. 'Batman can do anything!' It's funny because it's so absurd. He's like squirrel girl except without the self-awareness.

Only in the Whacky Golden/Silver Age Adventures xD or the Literal Batgod Grimdark style stories.
He works great when he's an insane guy that uses his money, power and status to cope with his mental problems. Very much a super hero in his capabilities, but still flawed and relatable. And I'm talking mental problems as in "actual problems", not in the Rob Liefeld Twisted Fucking Psychopath way.

>250+ post thread where people argue about how people use the term Mary Sue wrong, while simultaneously using it wrong

Just abolish the term already, it just causes confusion.

>>52697968

Mostly right. The only real nitpick is that while Batman is angsty he really doesn't whine about it, which is a generic sueish trait.

>>52715526
Because it's not that "no one cares" about white men, nor do I agree with the implication that it's feminism that causes the tokenization; instead, both are the result of a cultural, ideological phenomenon in which the default person is a white man. The emphasis is entirely misplaced.

>>52684358
Yes.

Is kenshiro a gary sue? I mean he basically is unkillable and destroys everything he punches.

But Hokuto no Shinken is a widely celebrated Anime/Manga, does that mean that Mary/Gary sue characters can be entertaining?

>>52687749
It'd be great if we could get people calling suicide bombers parallel killers.

>>52714004
>The Jedi also do not dislike or even dicourage intimacy, just attachment.
That's why they fall

>>52723041
Thats why Anakin fell, yes, because he could not let go of Padme, he couldn't just be grateful for the time they had, he wouldn't just disappear to Naboo like Padme wanted, he had to keep fighting, like an idiot.

>>52723097
Letting go completely is failure.
Falling prey to pasion is failure.
Jedi and Sith rarely find any balance.

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>>52684358
Is Jack a Mary Sue?

>>52719107
Yes actually. Anakin/lukes lightsaber was infused with the two most significant force users in centuries, and leia, han, ben, and luke were all sensitive to different levels, which would cause the falcon to be infused to some degree.

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Does a character who has flaws but never suffers from them count as a Mary Sue?

>>52684358
Fuck off Del Toro you only made one good movie in your life

>>52727327
Grey jedi fags go and stay go

>>52695758
They were exchanging people's roman currency for the local judean currency, so that people could purchase passover sacrifices. Jesus fucked up.

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>>52696749
>>52684450

The best example and how it negatively affects the story is what Belldandy from Oh My Goddess became in later parts of the manga.

When the series was first going on the three sisters of the series often worked together or at the very least played off one another's strengths, weaknesses and personalities. As a result the series was an incredibly fun series that mixed magic, technology and everyday problems. Sometimes it escalated to more grandiose levels but it always was fun to see how they worked together to unravel their problems.

Then at a certain point in the series Belldandy changed. Before she was a sweet, kind-hearted girl with a lot of patience but a little naive and ditzy and had the potential to have a subconscious jealous streak. Then all of a sudden she just became this aloof sage that barely reacted on an emotional level and would reveal aptitudes and accomplishments never before hinted at while her sisters became more and more of gibbering morons. The series quickly became boring because instead of everyone pooling their resources to solve a problem it became:

>Urd and Skuld try something stupid and it fails
>Belldandy either sages through it or reveals a new talent, problem gets solved

And as a result the series got pretty damn boring because it was predictable. I think a problem with the term Mary Sue is that people think it's a complaint about hating on a character but it's more of people trying to warn that the story has an element that is making it predictable. Like how in the Force Awakens despite the actress being very charming I started losing interest because I guess Rey would have or quickly develop some skill to solve the problem, the good-aligned characters would immediately like her and the evil-aligned characters would want her to switch sides. And I was right.

>>52684358
I think he's using the term wrong, which arguably most of the internet does.
Having game-breaking powers/luck/whatever the fuck else a Mary Sue does not make.
It's a character that hijacks/impedes the narrative to make it focused solely on them in a way that is jarring.
It's why it's so obvious in fanfiction, because as readers are already familiar with the narrative of the world, it's easy to spot when the author is making it focus on their OC/OC with established characters name TOO much.

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>>52711692

While some crap like her being able to fly the Millennium Falcon so well as to aim a shot for Finn when the cannon lost the ability to move despite not knowing where it was pointing and being good enough with the Force a second after becoming sensitive to it to read Kylo's mind, that's not what made me decide on Rey being a Mary Sue.

It was the shit like her refusing to sell BB-8. She was raised her entire life on a planet that would have jammed the idea of "You first, second and third. Screw anyone and anything else or you die" into her head. Do you think that if she were offered a payment sixty times greater than what she got for an entire day's work she would pass it up because it might hurt someone's feelings? Someone that she never met? Didn't Luke humor the idea of becoming a Stormtrooper or just working for the Empire because the pay was good?

And it was like how every good character liked her. IMMEDIATELY. They would look at Finn and treat him like a joke and then look at Rey and decide they could trust anything and everything to her. Even Chewbacca liked her right out of the gate. Then the evil characters were immediately interested in her and just wanted her to switch sides above all else.

Or how they specified how she had never touched a gun before in her life... then was an amazing crackshot that pinged multiple Stormtroopers in a row.

It was the cheap writing that was basically screaming at the audience "YOU MUST LIKE HER, SHE'S THE CLEAR CUT HEROINE" that made it feel cheap.

>>52731015
Luke genuinely wanted to join the imperial academy. I'd imagine being a imperial soldier was a pretty good wrap if you weren't personally under vader or palpatine.

The problem with Rey as far as I seen was like you said, everyone HAD to like her immediately. Luke honestly suffers from this a bit himself, but because the first movie has so little characters for him to interact with it isn't obvious, and by the time Empire comes, you can excuse it as him getting renown during the time skip.

The kicking Rens ass and all that I can excuse, but the universe focuses too much on her too quickly. It didn't feel like she was a character who got swept up in something bigger then herself.

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>>52694340
>vader has like 2 minutes of screen time
>makes a stupid pun

>>52731236
>makes dad joke
>doesn't even know he's a dad.
I also found it odd he had his fortress of doom in the ass crack of mustafar. I mean, sure Sheev may have assigned him there just to be a dick. But this is the guy who bitched about sand. Can you imagine how much he would have bitched about lava?

>I hate lava. It's hot and burns everything.

>>52697289
I'd be pretty pissed if I looked like professor snape too.

>>52730646
What if I'm a Kreiafag? Not the guy you're quoting, but do I have to leave too?
The force is a blight.

>>52689317

>I've never seen

Well, there you go.

>>52715150

But white men wrote those stories. White men were the default, and are the default, because in America, they made up 90% of the population.

White men, therefore, were relatable.

One could say black men are overrepresented or poorly represented and that there should be more hispanic leads than black leads based solely on population.

>>52732225

>White men
>90% of the population.

...do you not know how demographics work? Even at the highest, white men wasn't even 50% of the population due to white women + non-white of both genders.

>>52684358

Agree. There are plenty of perfect protagonists out there, from Superman to the Doctor, but their stories are what make them.

>>52697276

If this is true then the movie still sucks for not explaining it.

>It even has an in-universe name: Force Psychometry.

If it's not in the movie it's not canon.

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>>52727371

No, he has flaws and the whole series is about how he isn't good enough to beat the villain ... yet.

>>52727371
nah. He is shown to have his flaws and tends to have to learn how to over come challenges. Just because he always ends up winning at the end of the episode doesn't mean he is a mary sue.

>>52684450
>If every character is on a mary sue spectrum, then that defeats the purpose of labelling a character a mary sue

Alas, if only somebody had told this to the a decade ago before they started labeling every character with Sue...

>>52684646
Using Seacats is cheating, m80.

>>52694430
>every protagonist is a Mary Sue, then

Most correct post in thread.

>>52731388
The dark side is powered by emotion (especially hate), anon. That would just make Darth Vader stronger.

>>52689685

Han and Leia rather fell over her along with Finn and Kylo. And as I mention below she really goes danger-zone when it comes to an embellishment of her traits and features to emphasize her awesomeness. Mind you I am not defending Anakin from the title of gary sue. I am defending Luke because I don't believe there was ever any meaningful claims of him being one until Rey came along and apologists for Rey tried to tar Luke with the same scarlet letter.

>>52687533

You have to also consider mary sue being outside the boundaries of just power level. Most people hold Saitama in contempt, the public hated him with sea king, the only person who really loves and appreciates him (I haven't read the manga) was prettyboy robot and bike-man.

Saitama is 100% perfect and the best at punching. And running and jumping and lifting. That's it. But he's not the smartest, not the most clever, not the most charming, people don't instantly love him and he isn't able to pull solutions out of his hat - literally it's just "need more punch". If a solution can't be found by punching he's up shit creek.

>>52687762

The term varies but I prefer an emphasis on the qualities vs wish-fulfillment. Any story that isn't grimdark will have an element of the audience or author wishing they could slip into the hero or heroine's shoes. That's part of the adventure and escape. If instead of that empathetic wish-fulfillment the lead is a literal self-insert of the author (as in, their actual self is the character. Not "They wish they were" the character) and the character has an inordinate amount of traits and features that emphasize self-inserted wish fulfillment it becomes a problem.

>>52690033

Jyn was at least written well. A thousand times more than Rey. Her charisma was limited in that her film had a much larger leading cast to compete with attention and screen-time and that her story arc was severely limited by being a single movie. So while we have yet to see how Rey will pan out Jyn had to have everything compacted into a single movie.

If she got a trilogy Quite frankly I would have preferred a Rogue one trilogy to a Star Wars sequel trilogy. I loved the cast of rogue one and while I enjoyed the tragedy of their last stand slaughter I wouldn't have minded a trilogy of their survival with episode 2 being their experiences during the empire-rebel war and episode 3 being their experiences after it. Maybe have the heavy-weapons guy rediscover the force and become their jedi or have Jyn pursue it. Or the trilogy is just the rogue one story drawn out over 3 movies. So episode one is her time with Whittaker, episode 2 is the imprisonment and experience with the rebel special agent and maybe meeting her father for the last time, episode 3 is the great assault. I'm not a big fan of the dynastic element to the force you see with Anakin to Luke to presumably Rey. It's why I really wish Finn would be set up to be Luke's heir - have it be the heroic story of a lowest of the low imperial turncoat having the heart, drive, courage and will to become the great hero. /spoiler] she'd have been able to get a lot more of a personality going.

If it wasn't Disney and was a more daring director I'd take hope with that Luke comment about the Jedi needing to end being a sign of having star wars be less pivoting around the jedi and more pivoting around the world. Since the original trilogy really didn't focus on the jedi. That was luke's schtick and only showed up with him.

>>52722003

Does everyone who is good or not evil immediately like and respect him?
Is he able to pull abilities out of a hat besides just punching things to death? Is he a master of science, tech, diplomacy, strategy and cunning, business? Does his skill in things other than punching come from a background or experience or is it deus ex machina?

The thing that irritates me the most about Phasma is that she's introduced as this super-loyal, gung-ho First Order type, and then proceeds to instantly hand over the controls to Finn and co. at the end of the movie.

She could have stalled for time at least. It could even throw a little moral greyness onto Finn (I have to shoot this woman who isn't a direct threat to me-she's unarmed and not resisting?)

>>52731596
Since you're just a sith lord who was used as a mouth piece you can stay but shut the fuck up with your manipulations.

>>52727799
I'd argue that that's commonly the case with mary sues

>>52684358
He'd need to cite some examples and then we'll see.

>>52697968
Many, many versions of Batman are garbage Gary Stus, why is this trying to act like it's somehow not viewed as a bad thing?

>>52734239
ctrl+s anon