Are dragons birds, or are they mammals?

Warm blooded reptiles.

>>52668828
>is a lizard a mammal?
Excellent question.

>>52668828
Neither. Dragons are six-limbed, warm blooded entities with scales. They're closer to birds than mammals, but they're clearly their own kingdom.

>>52668874

This. Dragons only make sense as their own group. Which also opens up interesting room for exploring variants and other forms of draconic life.

They're Chordates.

>>52668828
No.

They're mother fucking dinosaurs.

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>>52668874
>>52668892

>>52668828
Insects

>>52668828
Successful chimera of everything.
If you are talking about D&D dragons, read Draconomicon.

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>>52668874
>their own kingdom
Slow down, cowboy!

>>52668828
>Poor Little Primate Boy

>>52669009
This brings memories of an old comedy show that had a sketch about a group of knights who killed dragons to sell their meat.

>>52668828
They are their own class of animals. Six limbs, laying eggs, warm blooded but at least the same level of intelligence as humans.

>>52668828
Neither, it goes like:

>Mammalia
>Aves
>Reptlia
>Whatever fish are...
>Draconia

Didnt the 2e Draconomicon answer all these questions?
I seem to remember fully detailed drawings of skeletal structure and all that fun stuff....
Off to my library to see if that's the right book

>>52669447
>Class Draconia
Belong to the Chordata Phylum: Warm blood, scales, egg based reproduction, 4 chambered heart. 4 fingers per limb plus a dewclaw.

Most Draconia creatures have six limbs, but in some cases, a pair of them can have evolved to become merely vestigial.

Most known orders:
>Iveria
Wyverns and Drakes, forelegs become vestigal, high developt wing, usually good fliers with loner behavior.

>Verus Dracus
Literally true dragons, most of the fully formed six limbed dragons, but also include pseudo-dragons.

>Serpens
No visible external limbs, or just wings.

>>52669555
This is starting to sound like Monster Hunter. Which is totally fine by me.

>>52669555
Don't forget Longs:
>Sinodraco
Serpentine bodies, no wings, use magic for flight.

>>52668828
Considering that they have 6 limbs i say they are an early branch of reptiles that split of together with mammals but are a sepparate group.

>>52669683
Shouldn't this be a Familie within Serpens? they seem to have the same overall morphology

>>52669738
No.
Those are Ichtio-Dracus

Dragons that grow from a fish-like larva form, to amphibious horned serpentine form to a four-legged serpentine lung as they age.

They fly by using a magical sediment that gathers in the form of pearls arround their necks.
These pearls allow them to manipulate lightning and electromagnetic fields.

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>>52668828
Dragons are for loving and protecting.

>>52669009
Based Laius dropping truth bombs left and right.

>>52668858
Depends. Is the lizard a proto-mammal from the Synapsid family line?

>>52669555
Dragons are known to have many evolutionary spinoffs as well, Griffons, basalisks, cockatrices, and the sapient kobolds are theorized to be evolved from scaled and plumed draconis ancestors

>>52668874
>their own kingdom

You mean their own class?

>>52670636
Dragons are for rape.

>>52668874
>their own kingdom.

WHAT

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>>52669279
There was a Disney movie about that too.

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The problem with trying to outline the dragon taxonomy is that it will be very setting dependent. For instance, in PF lung dragons are one of the true dragon types and called Imperial. However, D&D has a fuckton of different dragon types from small dragonets to drakes to wyverns and linnorms and a whole bunch of other types.

>>52671055
>Griffons, basalisks, cockatrices,
>dragons
Uh, how about no. Unless this is the WItchers sometimes shitty lore.

Mammals.

>>52671359
No, that's Elves. get your fantasy right.

>>52668874
>kingdom

Dragons aren't animals, cool.

>>52671475
Elves = the rapees
Dragons = the rapers

They're magic.

>>52668828
neither, they are Archosaurs like Crocodilians, Pterasours, and non-Avian Dinosaurs,
https://youtu.be/bTWmoKRkxC4?t=32s

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>>52671827
Are you implying Avian Dinosaurs *aren't* Archosaurs?

Because that renders the whole of Archosauria paraphyletic, and we can't have that now can we?

>>52668874
>>52668921
Certainly chordates, but not tetrapods. Meaning they descended from something other than fish. Perhaps they're some kind of hagfish?

>>52668828
technically they are insectoid bats

>>52668828

>cassowaries are only half the height of a human

>>52671944
Nigger they lay shelled eggs that don't desiccate outside of water, that makes them amniotes and amniotes are sub-clade of tetrapods

Unless you are arguing for convergent evolution between dragons and all other amniotes (reptiles/birds/mammals) in which case you have a pretty big parsimony problem unless you have a mountain of evidence proving convergence

>>52672050
They clearly have six limbs, which exclude them from tetrapoda.

>>52672075
Couldn't the wings just be an evolutionary divergence that caused the anterior pair of limbs to grow into two, while far enough down the tetrapod line as to be included there?

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>>52671928
my bad, I forgot that the whole of Avemetatarsalia are Archosaurs.

In most of the setting that I have done where Dragons exist, they are fire breathing Utahraptors with wings.

>>52672002
perfect height to rip your balls off with their claws.

>>52672134
I just prefer to omit six-limbed draconids from my settings completely. Wurms, wyverns, and lungs all sit neatly as archosaurs, but six-limbed dragons would need to have undergone a mutation and somehow survived and bred with either an extra accidental pair of gimpy limbs, or half their forelimb bones divided into two pairs. That or they're not tetrapods.

>>52668828

Neither. I always have dragons fit here:

>Class - Reptilia
>Subclass - Archosauria
>Infraclass - Dracosuchia (cousins of the Pseudosuchias, which are crocodilians, and Ornithosuchia, which are dinosaurs and pterosaurs)
>Orders - diverts into land-based, sea-based, air-based from here

>>52672315

Or... their ribs adapted to create wings.

>>52668828
They're buff snakes. All snakes gain a feature from the list every hundred years they manage to survive.

>>52672576
Dragons evolved from cobras?

>>52672722
more like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(genus)

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>>52669555
>Serpens

Pic related?

Fuck that noise.

Dragons are living concepts, less than gods but ore than beasts.

Their bodies amalgams of real biology forcibly merged and reinforced by raw magic to contain the essence and perform their role expected of them, as such various regions sees various dragons.

Their lifespans as long as their legends, invulnerable to all but fabled weapons, legendary heroes or clever tales.

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>>52671450
>Uh, how about no. Unless this is the WItchers sometimes shitty lore.

You mean the original Chainmail lore?

>>52673363
Dragons were created by Tiamat to vengance on the gods for murdering her mate. They're simultaneously magical and reptiles.

She also created Sphinxes, Hydras, Merfolk, Scorpionmen, Centaurs, Storm Demons, Giants, and more. She was the mother of monsters.

>>52668828

Cephalopods.

I don't know where to use Coatl and where to use Dragons, and what meaningful and thematic differences I can use for either.

>>52672558
>Pseudosuchia
>"fake crocodiles"
>actually contains crocodiles
lol biologists

I've been doing quite a bit of thinking about dragons recently, I'm glad this thread came up.

I imagine them as six-limbed dinosaurs, something shaped like a very large raptor (Can't be meaty like a t-rex because it needs to fly - also probably hollow-boned) with bat-like wings (Feathery ones if you like that more, as it'd make more sense).

I was thinking about how they'd hunt and fight recently, taking into account they'd be a pretty smart animal if you didn't make them outright sapient. I figured the fire breath would be a kind of last resort, like an octopus's ink, which they'd use rarely for offense and more to keep attackers off of them. I thought they'd be more like hit-and-run style attackers since they could just swoop by and slash with their talons or whatever and then fly off. Fighting head-to-head would probably go poorly since they're probably a little fragile, due to the hollow bones.

>>52673823
Oh, meant to ask what you guys through about that sort of thing. Normally I don't go too in-detail about the scientific qualities of mythological beings, but I really wanted dragons to make sense.

>>52673415
And yet neither of those are considered dragons in any other edition after the shit proto D&D was scrapped in favor of actual D&D.

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>>52668858
Dude, dragons are mammals in some settings, or closer to mammals than other reptiles, like anon here said >>52670695
In Monster Hunter some "dragons" have fur and ears. They are not mammals, but they are way closer to mammals than a dinosaur would be.

>>52669447
Reptiles are paracladistic

>>52668828
>6 limbs
>hard outer shell
>lay eggs

Obviously insects

>>52674057
In monster hunter most things are called Wyverns of some class. Some of those are closer to dinosaurs, some are closer to mammals, some are closer to fish.

There's an entire separate class for true dragons in monster hunter. It also isn't the best example when Dragon is also an element.

>>52673090

Yeah, but dragon wings are NOTHING like that. They're structure is obviously derived from extra limbs.

Dragons are just their own thing. Created by whatever created the world.

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>>52668828
>Are dragons birds, or are they mammals?

Neither, they're synapsids; a genus of "primitive" mammal-like reptiles that possess the qualities and traits of both lizards and reptiles.

I suppose if we needed a "real world" contemporary relative to compare to: Dragons are more closely related to monotremes and maybe marsupials?

>>52674297
>Sail eventually splits off into two wings, muscles develop to manipulate them as such

It checks out

>>52674321
So metallic dragons were secretly the most realistic anatomy

>>52674321

The sail of dimetredon and other "sail back" synapsids is a rigid extension of the spine, not an articulated set of limbs with a humerus, radius, uldna, phalanges, etc.

Dragons don't fit in with earth taxonomy.

Sometimes the correct answer is none of the above.

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If you really want to pedantic about this, Dragons are likely closely related to the group of mammal-like synapsids, like
Dimetrodon considering we know they live in colder climates, it stands to reason they know how to regulate their internal body temperature.

>>52669009
>mangafox
/a/ is looking down on you, fa/tg/uy

>>52674507
>>52674297

I like this line of thought

>>52674378
Six limbs isn't possible for any kind of vertebrate as we know them.

Unless a six limbed Permian fish akin to Tiktaalik evolved covergently to it, which isn't that outlandish

>>52674051
I find your strict compartmentalizing of dragons incredibly boring.

The Cockatrice and the Basalisk are a paired animal and are considered dragons. Not True Dragons, but still dragons.

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>>52674640
Which is ironic considering we found an actual "Cockatrice" in the fossil record

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>>52668828

They're inorganic creatures spawned by elemental storms you fucking idiot

>>52668874
If by
>there own kingdom
You mean
>spawns of satan
Then you are correct.

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>>52674297
>Dragons are more closely related to monotremes and maybe marsupials?
Very good.
You could get away with scales, fur, spikes, poison barbs, egg laying, milk production, it even gives a good excuse for the weird Monster Hunter furred wyverns and Elder Dragons

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>>52674057
In A Song of Ice and Fire it is never pointed out clearly, but when the dragons hatched from their eggs on the pyre with Daenerys, two of them were attached to her breasts, as if she was breastfeeding them, while the third one waited. So the dragons from that setting might be able to produce/consume milk.
Might be that they are monotremes as this anon pointed out >>52674297

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Yes.

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>>52677016

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>>52677037

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>>52677056
I really like this body plan over the typical style.

>>52677069
Oh man, that's really close to what I had imagined for a more realistic dragon. Maybe the arms'd be a little bigger so they could support weight, but that's pretty damn good.

>>52677069
>>52677492
Gore Magala, Shagaru Magala and Gogmazios do share this wing-arm-leg style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgYPYJhmVV0

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>>52671944
I remember a fake-umentary series broadcast on Animal Planet when I was a kid. Pic related was in the first installment, living in the Cretaceous period. This had made me think that evolution from a prototype like this could've been possible for dragons.
Still, your idea is pretty damn creative. It accounts for Gigginoxes from the Monster Hunter franchise, at the very least.

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>>52674297
Ma paleontologist nigga

>>52669009
>Mangafox

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>>52669555
>Serpens lactus

>>52668828
Mammal like reptiles

>>52671944

Are they chordates? I feel like you could sell me on an arthropod model.

>>52674149

kind of my thinking

>>52678479
here

>>52674297
>>52675954
The platypus is electrosensitive, right? That explains dragons hoarding precious metals right there. It's not out of greed or malice, it's just a very soothing, uniform electromagnetic field because they're such good conductors. It's dragon ASMR.

Webbed forelimbs could easily evolve into wings over enough time as well.

>>52668828
Dragons are chimeric monsters with elements and aspects of multiple animals. They have wings, horns, manes, whiskers, fur, scales, horns/antlers, claws/talons, ears, ridges, fins, spines...

>>52672722

No. Many organisms have found ways to flatten their ribs (some for gliding, some for fitting under small gaps, some for display, etc). Over time, dragons just evolved to the point where their wings were more developed than mere gliding ribs.

>>52673363

This is almost as gay as dragon-girls. Almost.

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Dragons = seraphim. They are ANGLES.

If you didn't know this beforehand KILL YOURSELF

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Dragons = seraphim. They are ANGLES.

If you didn't know this beforehand KILL YOURSELF YOU FILTHY GODLESS SCUM

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Dragons = seraphim. They are ANGLES.

If you didn't know this beforehand KILL YOURSELF

For death is come up into our windows, and is entered into our palaces, to cut off the children from without, and the young men from the streets.

- Jeremiah 9:21

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>>52681127
>>52681118
>>52681110

I hear your heart beat to the beat of the drums
Oh, what a shame that you came here with someone
So while you're here in my arms
Let's make the most of the night like we're gonna die young
We're gonna die young
We're gonna die young
Let's make the most of the night like we're gonna die young
Let's make the most of the night like we're gonna die young
Young hearts, out our minds
Runnin' till we outta time
Wild childs, lookin' good
Livin' hard just like we should
Don't care whose watching when we tearing it up (you know)
That magic that we got nobody can touch (for sure)
Looking for some trouble tonight (yeah)
Take my hand, I'll show you the wild side
Like it's the last night of our lives (uh huh)
We'll keep dancing till we die

>>52674529

/a/ can suck a dick I don't browse that cesspool.

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>>52674149
I... er... well...
He makes a good point.

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>>52681136

Our time has come, we're gonna
Walk in the sun,oh
I've packed my hopes,
We're ready to roll,
We're on our way
With a little faith we can
Step from the shadows and
Tell everyone
Turn the spotlight on
Now our time has come
Our time has come, we're heading
Strait for the sun, oh
With heart and soul,
Watch us go,
We're on our way
With a little love we know
Nothing can stop us, so
Tell everyone
Turn the spotlight on
Now our time has come
Are you ready to wish upon a star?
Well I'll be ready to follow my own heart
Are you ready to be set free?
Well I'll be ready to reach out for that dream
Just over the horizon
Our time has come, we're gonna
Walk in the sun,oh
I've packed my hopes,
We're ready to roll,
We're on our way
With a little faith we can
Step from the shadows and
Tell everyone
Turn the spotlight on
Now our time has come
Are you ready to wish upon a star?
Well I'll be ready to follow my own heart
Are you ready to be set free?
Well I'll be ready to reach out for that dream
Just over the horizon
Our time has come we're gonna
Walk in the sun, oh
I've packed my hopes,
We're ready to roll,
We're on our way
With a little love we know
Nothing can stop us, so
Tell everyone
Turn the spotlight on
Now our time has come
Can you feel the power, now
The day is ours
For you and I
There comes a time
To hold our heads high
Make a little history
Each time we dare to dream
Tell everyone
Turn the spotlight on
Now our time has come
Our time has come we're gonna
Walk in the sun, oh
I've packed my hopes,
We're ready to roll,
We're on our way
Make a little history
Each time we dare to dream
Tell everyone
Turn the spotlight on
Now our time has come
Our time has come
Our time

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>>52681157

Saw you leaning against that old record machine
Saw the name of your band written on the marquee
It's a full moon tonight so we gettin' rowdy
Yeah, we gettin' rowdy, get-get-gettin' rowdy

Feeling like I'm a high schoo-ler sipping on a warm wine cooler
Hot 'cause the party don't stop, I'm in a crop top like I'm working at Hooters
We been keepin' it PG but I wanna get a little frisky
Come gimme some of that, yum like a lollipop, let me set you free

C'mon 'cause I know what I like
And you're looking just like my type
Let's go for it just for tonight
C'mon, c'mon, c'mon

Now don't even try to deny
We're both going home satisfied
Let's go for it just for tonight
C'mon, c'mon, c'mon

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>>52681169

KILL YOUR FUCKING SELF YOU FUCKING FAGGOT

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>>52681180

Rah!
(Rah!) I have a heart, I swear I do
But just not baby when it comes to you
I get so hungry when you say you love me
(Hush!) if you know what's good for you
I think you're hot, I think you're cool
You're the kinda guy I'd stalk in school
But now that I'm famous, you're up my anus
Now I'm gonna eat you, fool
I eat boys up, breakfast and lunch
Then when I'm thirsty, I drink their blood
Carnivore, animal, I am a cannibal
I eat boys up, you better run
I am cannibal (cannibal, cannibal, I am)
I am cannibal (cannibal) (I'll eat you up) (I am)
I am cannibal (cannibal, cannibal, I am)
I am cannibal (cannibal) (I'll eat you up)
Whenever you tell me I'm pretty
That's when the hunger really hits me
You're little heart goes pitter-patter
I want your liver on a platter
Use your finger to stir my tea
And for dessert I'll suck your teeth
Be too sweet and you'll be a gonner
Yeah, I'll pull a Jeffrey Dahmer
I eat boys up, breakfast and lunch
Then when I'm thirsty, I drink their blood
Carnivore, animal, I am a Cannibal

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>>52681136
>>52681157
>>52681169
>>52681197
way to spam the thread into oblivion