>he doesnt know how to do redeemed demon or to solve the orc

Hellboy is literally the harbinger of the apocalypse and will bring about the destruction of the world. Not the best example.

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>>52600049
>>52600049
That's wrong. He died a hero and went down to hell without destroying anything, except Queen Nimue, who was about to unleash the ogdru jahad.

>>52600049
Isn't that just his weird stony hand? From what I understand, that thing is gonna end the world whether it's affixed to his elbow or not.

>>52600217
So what your saying is that his death is what guaranteed the safety of the world?

Still not selling me on this.

>>52600318
No, I just disproved both of your points. Hellboy was not the harbinger of the apocalypse and did not bring about the destruction of the world. Stop moving the goalposts.

>>52600563
Fuck you, they're my goalposts I'll do what I want with them.

>>52600049
He's also such a righteous soul that flowers have grown from his blood.

Doing a redeemed right is with a holy sword to the neck. Solving the orc baby right is killing it.

Fucking done. What else you got, bitch?

>>52600895
I dont know. It's just that ironic paladinposting was taken at face value by newfags who try to fit in, which really grinds my gears

>>52600895
I got some beer. You uh...you like beer?

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>>52600035
If this an issue for your paladin, he's clearly worshiping the wrong god.

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>>52600895
3.5 stopped being a thing 9 years ago, palifag.

>>52600917
>ironic

What if I told you that ironic shitposting is just regular shitposting?

>>52601058
Joke's on you I was merely pretending to bring down the quality of the discussion with my nonsensical and inflammatory drivel.

>>52601097
The joke is on you, beacue you failed to pretend.

Rolled 12 (1d20)

>>52601134
Or did I succeed in pretending so thoroughly that I forgot I was merely pretending and transcend into really doing it, like some sort of Daniel Day Lewis of shitposting?

>>52600049
Hellboy is also the blood heir to King Arthur and destined to SAVE the world.

>>52600035
Try uhh, NOT painting them with same tired brush?

They attack you, kill em. They start doing evil things (such as causing suffering or being conservative) and refuse to attempt to redeem themselves, kill em

other than that you treat them with same level of respect you would any other sapient being.

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>>52601239
>They start doing evil things (such as causing suffering or being conservative)

>>52601254
Reality has a non-evil bias :^)

>>52600035
>orc baby problem
what is this ?

>>52601314
Oh hey, it's palibro!

>>52601336
Nah, I'm not into gygaxian-style '''''''good''''' that says the best thing to do with a reformed evil guy is kill him before he backslides. I was just making a tweaked-for-thread jab at the guy baitposting about calling conservatives evil. the full /pol/ version would be Reality has a liberal bias.

>>52600318
Sure, but he saved a lot of people on the way.

Considering it is the almost guaranteed end of every paladin to die protecting the innocent, putting his exceptional power to good use while consigning him to a literal dead end job ensuring he dies early long before he has a chance to apocalypse, seems like the greatest possible good out of the situation.

>>52601239
Being conservative is Lawful

>>52600035
>thinking annoying metanarrative solutions are better than getting it "wrong" in-character

>>52601254
Conservative says "benefit for the wealthy and traditionally valued, even at the cost of detriment to the poor or those that cannot fit those values." Selfishness to the point of harming others is textbook DnD evil, just as valuing tradition and authority over individual needs is textbook Lawful.
US Republicans are as iconic Lawful Evil as you can get.

>>52601371
That doesn't mean you arn't evil yo.

>>52601398
gets it

>>52601359
well, i guess i meant more of a 'Refuses to amend ways, and continues to be hostile, and is showing, without doubt, that they will have lethal intent'

I'm a martial pacifist, studied a great many martial arts for the sole purpose of fucking up the guy who wants to fuck me up. Show me lethal intent, and i'll put you under without mercy. and the third time, for the same thing, i've had to tell you stop being an asshole, i'll punch you. Other that that we'll be good.

actually if you've read the comics recently, the "twist" of Hellboy is that he indeed ends the world.... long long after everyone is dead due to other reasons.

him ending the world causes it to reset to a new beautiful world, and the souls of humanity reincarnate and have a paradise to live in.

this was always what Hellboy's demon-father intended when he had the Hand of Doom affixed to hellboy's hand, and is the major ironic twist of the entire series.

>>52602072

Hang on, is Hellboy finally finished then? I can download and read it from start to finish?

>>52602072
This.

The beast is not meant to end humanity but the Ogdru infested corpse of the world.

>>52600035
Ez, just kill them and don't give a fuck because you shouldn't care about alignment unless you're a Paladin.

>>52600925
Beer. We like beer.

>>52603817
Hellboy's own story is complete, but B.R.P.D is still going. check in on the Chronological Mignolaverse threads on /co/.They'll be able to provide it.

>>52600035
The orc baby problem is not a problem because orcs are not evil. Reminder: if you insist all orcs are evil, you're shitting on Tolkien's grave.

>>52600318
By dying before he could personally cause the apocalypse fucked over the 'plan' destiny had, giving Humanity fighting chance.

>>52603817
We still have the big finale of the whole Mignoliaverse but otherwise yeah Hellboy is done.

>>52601324
It's a hypothetical Paladin Falls scenario. The Paladin encounters an orc baby and must decide to kill it or spare it.

There is no way to "do it right" because it's an artificial scenario where the correct answer is whichever one you don't pick. You kill the baby then babies are always innocent and you've just forsaken your oath. You fall. You spare the baby then orcs are always Evil and you're facilitating all the wrong it will do when it's an adult. You fall.

It and similar situations are just a malevolent Kobayashi-Maru test favored by mean-spirited GMs who think they're teaching you some kind of lesson.

>>52604820

I never understood that kind of situation. Why would killing a monster babe make any Paladin fall? Monsters are evil, even their offspring. There is no evil in that, nothing to make you fall.

>>52600318
No, the apocalypse is happening anyway, he's just not involved.

>>52600035
>how to do redeemed demon
The being made out of pure, materialized evil stops being a being made out of pure, materialized evil and therefore disappears.

>solve the orc baby problem
Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. They'll remain a risk factor regardless of good upbringing. Unless we assume the D&D universe is a behaviorist-Marxist utopia where man is utterly mallable and the Soviet Orc prevails above all.

So the orc baby problem is like the /tg/ version of the trolley problem, right?

>>52605249
And the B.R.P.D actually has a chance of stopping it considering Johann killed one of the Ogdru Jahad

>>52604820
Why not just, you know, ask your god?
>I fall down on my knees and grasp my holy symbol with both hands. I yell out the name of my god followed by "Please guide your servant gracious one. What should I do? Give me a sign!"

>>52605302
>An orc baby is born in a trolley, his mother dies during child birth
>The trolley heads for a spit, with five people being tied down on the trolley's current path and only one person being tied down on the alternate path
>You are traveling faster than light, therefore time and causality no longer apply to you and you can retroactively raise the orc baby. In other words, you will have tried your best to raise the orc as a good person before he is even born
>But you and your adopted orc-son have, due to messing with time-space, ended up in Plato's cave where you can only see the shadows of good and evil and not the eidolon themselves
>You can climb out of the cave, but you'll have to reach the top of Hilbert's Hotel to properly see the eidolon
>Hilbert's Hotel has an infinite number of floors, and construction workers are constantly building an infinite number more
>Halfway through Hilbert's Hotel, in room number infinity, you meet Jesus who directly states that the orc must choose the path where five people are tied down
>In the opposite room Plato asks if Jesus says this because it's good,or if it's good because Jesus says this
>Meanwhile Camus tells you to give up on ever reaching the top floor and to just enjoy the walk upstairs
>What path will the orc baby's trolley choose?

>>52604820
What I never got out of that was how is it an issue? I can just take it with me to church to a higher up, or call uo my god on a prayer. When you're part of his hand picked squad (paladin), you can do that shit.

>>52605393
Everyone is too distracted by hypotheticals and the barbarian smashes the trolley.

>>52605414
Does this prove Camus right though? Was the trek to the top of Hilbert's Hotel futile, meaning that finding enjoyment in its futility is the only way to cope with it?

I still don't know what the fuck is happening in the Hellboy universe. I wish it would just be consistent with its prophecies instead of like seventeen overlapping and contradictory ones. Really ruins the whole rebel against your own fate vibe the setting has.

>>52605393
I talk to the people bound to the track and redeem them if they are evil, thus ensuring their souls go to a good-aligned plane when the trolley runs them over. Then I kill the orc child before the evil inherent in his race can take hold. All these actions are LG and make more sense in-universe than any other option.

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>>52605473
It has been incredibly consistent with its prophecies, it's just playing with the whole "prophecies are tricky things" trope.

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>>52605513
the god of nonexistent dilemmas and moot points sees you've made a decision, a cardinal sin in his domain, and you are struck by his wrath.

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>>52605459
nope, socrates is right, because the oracle told him so

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This thread is silly.

>>52603928
How about Cuban cigars?

>>52600934
>using a shit edition for your "muh wife's green son" strawman
>not raising a dozen healthy human children instead of an ugly sub-80-IQ rapelet.

KYS

>>52601239
>They start doing evil things (such as causing suffering or being conservative)

Too obvious. Grima Wormtongue was a multiculturalist liberal, Aragorn was a conservative.

>>52605350
>>52605405

Asking your god is inaction in the face of Evil. You fall. Taking the baby to a Church means the baby is executed by them. You are complacent in the death of an innocent. You fall. Or they try rehabilitating it which is impossible because orcs are evil. It grows up and kills someone and it's your fault. You fall.

It doesn't matter what you do. The GM wants you to fall no matter what, so you fall. The orc baby is just a fake pretense

>>52601438
>I'm a martial pacifist, studied a great many martial arts for the sole purpose of fucking up the guy who wants to fuck me up. Show me lethal intent, and i'll put you under without mercy. and the third time, for the same thing, i've had to tell you stop being an asshole, i'll punch you. Other that that we'll be good.

You sound like a fat cunt and if you tried to talk shit about my Trump hat I'd put my 1911 in your face and laugh at the time you wasted.

>>52601398

It's not selflessness to take what others have gained and redistribute it. It's selfish not to work and to want another's profit. Commies GTFO.

>>52605872
How is asking for guidance Evil?
You might as well make the wizard permanently lose all his spell slots if he ever makes a non-magical attack.
You might as well make the Druid permanently lose all class abilities if they touch or are touched by a forged metal item.
You might as well make clerics lose all their spells and abilities permanently if they perform an evil act (why only Paladins?).
You might as well make all Bards lose their spells and performances if they sing a bad tune.
You might as well make sorcerers permanently lose their casting abilities if they try to cast divine magic.
You might as well make rogues lose all their class abilities and sneak attack if they don't steal something every week.
You might as well make Barbarians lose their rage ability if they act calm and rational in a stressful moment.
You might as well make fighters... actually fighters are already what happens when a class falls.

>>52605977
Why are you nitpicking me on this? I'm not defending it. Im just pointing out what the GM will say to these arguments. It's not a valid moral quandary by any standard. It's just the GM being a jerk because they think the fall mechanic is a great method of screwing with players.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ondonti

>>52605872
>Inaction
But I am acting. I am acting to perform exactly what my god wants in this situation.

>>52605872

So the orc baby exists purely to make Paladins fall. In which case, take the hit, and kill it so no other Paladins will fall as a result of its machinations, then go on a crusade to slay ALL orc babies, everywhere, to ensure as much conservation of good in the world as possible. Damn yourself to save all.

Also play an Eldritch Knight instead, they're fucking rad.

>>52605977
>You might as well make fighters... actually fighters are already what happens when a class falls.

Only in shit editions. Fighters are godkings in 4e and 5e. Pretending this is still 3.5 is done only for the eager of insecure Wizard players and greedy Fighter players who want more shit.

>>52606024
"Something something your god is displeases you had to ask about something so obvious. You fall".

I don't think you guys are understanding what I'm saying. These rationalizations I'm giving are intentionally flawed and half baked. That's because the GM who gives you the orc baby scenario wants you to fall and will say /anything/ to rationalize it. He will not hear any protests or justifications because in his mind whatever decision you make is the wrong one by virtue of him wanting you to fall.

>>52606116
Then I ask the GM if I can change my class and stats to a barbarian because Paladins were not obviously wanted in his campaign. If not I murder the GM in cold blood with the excuse that "If I fall for killing an orc baby I might as well get arrested for killing a man baby".

>>52605977
>fighters are already what happens when a class falls.

>be wizard
>have no spells left and being overwhelmed by goblins
>desperately strike at one with a dagger
>fall
>suddenly feel a tingle in my chin as my beard recedes into my face
>only have a moment to realize that without my conduit for mana I'll never be able to use magic again before the secrets of the universe are lost from my mind
>muscles bulge as I become capable of picking up a sword and wearing armor
>as I fight off the goblins I'm left wondering if it was worth it

>>52605909
The people actually making redistribution happen aren't the poor, they're always rich people of a different persuasion than their political opponents. The super wealthy are the ruling class in a liberal democracy, all political movements with traction have at least /some/ rich people behind them.

>>52606116
What if my god isn't a god of being nice?

>>52606385
"Your god is harsh but fair and does not accept harming innocents. You have killed a child for this sins of his parents. You fall."

The orc baby GM will move the goalposts as much as he needs to make you fall. >>52606162 is the only real answer to this kind of GMing.

>>52600035
>orc baby problem
Depends on the setting. If orcs are all evil (because fantasy setting), are made by an evil god to do evil or the players are only shown evil ones then killing a den of orcs shouldn't be any different from removing a wasp nest.
It's the GM's job to provide examples the players can base their conjecture on.

>>52600035
Solving the orc baby problem is easy. Solving where to dump all the orc baby corpses, on the other hand...

>>52607557
A sausage factory. Done.

>>52607634
Brilliant!

But what about the sudden outbreak of sausages poisoning the peasantry?

>>52607681
>peasantry
The strong ones will survive. Call it eugenics.

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>>52600035
Hellboy doesn't know how to handle his circumstances, though.

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>>52600035
So what the fuck did Hellboy do to deserve going to Requiem?

>>52607992
>implying HB has to do anything wrong in order to suffer

>>52608122
>implying he didn't go chasing nazi demon vampires to slap their shit

>>52608559
I think he meant that his character was defined by self sacrifice, and that suffering is part of what makes his character relatable.

>>52600035
So, I never really fully understood this in the movies, when he escaped through the portal, was it just by change that he slipped through, and there's millions of apocalypse-bringing demons on the other side of whatever portal they were opening up, and he was just a lucky (unlucky) one? Or, did the demons predict the portal being opened and planned on sending him through?

>>52612476
chance*

>>52600217
>>52600563
>>52605249


Just because he went to hell doesn't mean he still won't cause the TRUE apocalipse on earth. Many may try to cause sub-apocalipses (like rasputin), and some of it may happen naturally, but in the end it's still hellboy's destiny to bring the end of the world.

>>52612476
Hellboy is a demon. Calling demons from hell it's not that hard in that universe. The portal wasn't to hell, but to a plane where a chtulhu-like thing lives/sleeps, and that is problably much more dangerous than demons.

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>>52612476
Don't know about the movies, but in the comic his summoning turns out to have been timed to connect with the angels of God smashing the lab of his father, who was grafting the Right Hand of Doom onto Hellboy. The angels destroyed it all, Hellboy's father died, but Hellboy got sent out into the Earth to survive.

>>52600035
>solve the orc baby problem

with an axe duh

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>>52604820
Wrong. You follow the objectively correct code of ethics, Consequentialism/Utilitarianism, which completely removes all emotion from decision making. Therefore the right choice is to kill the Orc baby as it is most likely to grow up into a vicious adult Orc, and therefore be a net negative influence upon the world by causing further death. The best course of action is to kill it. Innocence does not matter.

>>52604820
>It and similar situations are just a malevolent Kobayashi-Maru test favored by mean-spirited GMs who don't exist.
Fixed some spelling errors.

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>>52607992
>Implying he wasn't a victim of ogdru jahad who are the Masters of the Infinite.

>>52607992
>two hellboys

>>52612924
>mean spirited and incompetent people now don't exist

All orcs aren't evil, though, and Tolkien argued against any interpretation suggesting that.

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>>52601398
>US Republicans
>a good example of a conservative party

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>he doesnt know how to do redeemed demon
It's pancakes isn't it?

>>52607737
A Modest Eugenic Proposal, if you will.

>>52614345
The only misunderstanding greater than believing Swift was sarcastic in his work is that Machiavelli wasn't.

>>52613840
>All orcs aren't evil
Depends entirely on the setting, and the GM's homebrew where all orcs are evil counts as a setting.

>Tolkien argued against any interpretation suggesting that.
He said he was uncomfortable without he couldn't ratonalize them as anything /but/ Always Evil. He never found a way to suggest otherwise in the story and this made him sad.

Besides, what Tolkien says about his orcs has zero relevance to what other writers say about their own orcs.

>>52606162
>"If I fall for killing an orc baby I might as well get arrested for killing a man baby".
kekked honestly

>>52608122
Hellboy is a top tier sufferer alongside characters like Ragna and papa nier

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>>52606162
>If I fall for killing an orc baby I might as well get arrested for killing a man baby

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>>52606162
>"If I fall for killing an orc baby I might as well get arrested for killing a man baby".

>>52605349
That's BPRD bro. BRPD is the Baton Rouge Police Department.

>>52604863
"Monster" isn't really an objective category following any specific rules.
Not only are some creatures that pcs might fight not always evil but there are often or always good creatures in the monster manuals and players might even fight against other humanoids like elves, dwarves, or even just human bandits/savages.

There are actually relatively few creatures that have some irresistible inborn malice from birth.

Reminder that back in the 3.5 days WotC statted a succubus paladin. Even being made of literal evil and chaos isn't enough to stop justice if you work at it.

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>>52601398

Republicans give more to charity than Democrats. Reddit please go.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

>>52623487
Religious people are more likely to give money, non-religious people are more likely to give time and resources.

>>52623571

From the article:
"Conservatives also appear to be more generous than liberals in nonfinancial ways. People in red states are considerably more likely to volunteer for good causes, and conservatives give blood more often. If liberals and moderates gave blood as often as conservatives, Mr. Brooks said, the American blood supply would increase by 45 percent."

>>52623571
Money is the only resource that matters, it can buy anything including the time of other persons and any goods that would have been donated

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>>52621899
Wasn't that because she got the most votes in some online poll?

It may very well have been a situation where WotC underestimated the appeal of succubi and didn't really think through the ramifications of what a good succubus meant to the ultimate cosmology.

Then again, Fall-from-Grace preceded her.

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How do you get the Orc baby home without it starving to death? Does your paladin to big heaving lactating titties?

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>>52624038
have*

Give it to the fighter? Bah! That harlot couldn't raise a child!

Remember: Objective good and evil are for objectively good and evil beings.

>>52603932
Tolkien was notorious for poorly construing the nature of orcs. What the fuck are you talking about?

>>52613556
No one said he was The Fallen One's only child.

>>52605274
>The being made out of pure, materialized evil stops being a being made out of pure, materialized evil and therefore disappears.

Spoken like someone who gets all his fantasy cues from D&D.

The idea of a demon becoming good exists throughout mythology. The official stance of the Catholic church, last it was ever brought up, is that even Satan isn't beyond redemption.

>>52623487
I mean, neither US party isn't evil. Their government is pretty much the worst thing I've seen in first world.

>>52605909
It is selfish to have others provide you goods and services and to use your position of power to not have to pay them a reasonable compensation, so that they have to rely on government handouts despite working a full-time job.
Feudalist Pig GTFO.

>>52605909
It's not redistribution if the workers had a right to that prosperity in the first place for supplying you with labor, and you refused to pay them their full due, insisting that the unlivable pittance you did begrudgingly hand over was enough and that they should be grateful to starve to death eating your breadcrumbs.

>>52605473

Prophecy has a way of turning out exactly the opposite of how you expected. Its best to just ignore them and laugh at your enemies trying to make their nefarious schemes look like your destiny as if that will make you change your mind about stopping them!

>>52605861
Conservative? He was a reactionary monarchist! Truly a scumlord! Rohan and Gondor should have welcomed those poor, oppressed Orc refugees in instead of slaughtering them. They only sacked Osgiliath and besieged Minas Tirith because you didn't let them in and it radicalized them!

>>52606084

How are 5e fighters different from 3.pf fighters? They look identical to me.

>>52625879
Viability and necessity.

Casters got hit with the Nerf bat thanks to Concentration and a reshuffled spell list and drawbacks. You can't do the crazy things as early as you could in 3.PF, and trying to do them in 5e will drive a group mad since you're building up to some supposed super power while they're getting chewed up NOW.

Fighters also get lots more attack that will do more damage than the casters and can take hits. Not as fun as 4e Find, but they at least tried to make them entertaining by making the Battlemaster.

>>52625995
Champion can be fun, you just have to fight monsters like Link. Climb on it then stab it in the eye with a crit.

And the EK is for those weirdos that like Evocation gishes, instead of realizing that the best gishes are a self-buffers not blasters.

>>52623571
That's false though...

>>52625658
>>52625735
>outlawing consensual agreements between employers and employees, and then demanding a portion of the payment changing hands as protection money on the agreements you haven't outlawed yet
>not neutral evil as fuck

Come on commies, at least embrace who you are.

>>52600035
>redeemed demon
as a catholic, this offends me.

>>52606024
That Orc baby is possibly growing more and more evil by the second, taking the time to ask for guidance is basically the same as potentially blowing up the whole world.

>>52627054
Got an issue with a Reedemon?

>>52612692
What if I'm a parent ork who ISN'T vicious, and doesn't attack people.

Isn't it my right to defend my child?

I can do whatever the fuck I want to you if you try to hurt my child, no matter how violent or extreme, without it being a reasonable example of me being a bad person.

Because you tried to hurt my child.

If that's not the case, then you should sacrifice your child to prove that someone can just let that happen.

>>52612692
With that logic, the good thing to do would be to kill all children, as the all have a chance to become evil.

I'm pretty sure there's some kinda anime villain out there with this kind of mentality.

>>52623487
An article from 9 years ago says.

>>52600035
I use Detect Evil. If yes I can slay it with a clear conscience.

>>52627054
>demons can't be redeemed
Why is god such an asshole?

>>52630702
Last time he came down to try and help us out, we tortured him to death. He got better, but it's still the kind of thing that sours a deity's mood.

>>52631332
That doesn't make sense, he wanted us to torture him to death, that was the whole point of him coming here, why would he be mad?

>>52631392
That's what we tell ourselves after the fact. Obviously he really wanted it, right?

>>52630662
Best answer

>>52626705
>Sucking porky's dick this hard

>>52604820
Get the questionable bard to kill the orc baby.

>>52633848
>you fall for shrinking responsibility

>>52601438
Toughest guy on the internet, gents.