Now that the dust has settled, who was in the wrong here?

>>52490552
Horus

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>>52490552
Oh you

>>52490552
Magnus ruined everything, for everyone, forever out of sheer arrogance and retardation.

Russ followed the orders of his absolute Emperor-appointed superior without asking questions.

I think the answer is pretty clear.

>>52490639
>I think the answer is pretty clear.

That Lorgar was the worst Primarch?

>>52490649
No, the worst Primarch was Curze, from any rational standpoint.

The man knew EXACTLY what he was going to become, and he did NOTHING to prevent it. He just moped around because "boo hoo I grew up on a shitty planet full of murderers and learned to talk from the screams of the dead and dying."

I would otherwise say Angron, but he's way more of a force of nature than anything else.

Lorgar isn't the worst, because Lorgar only fell because he trusted his best friend and his adopted dad after the Emperor metaphorically bitched-slapped his entire legion with mind-powers (ironically proving the very omnipotence and power that Lorgar always claimed he had) and told them "Why aren't you like your brothers? They're the good sons, you're just terrible." Because he loved the Emperor SO MUCH, when the Emperor rebuked him, he was a completely broken man and extremely easy to manipulate into worship of the Chaos Gods by those he cared about.

Lorgar is far more of a tragic character, because he turned out the way he did because he was just as manipulated as Horus was, and went from being a paragon of virtue and faith in the God-Emperor to a completely and totally irredeemable Daemon-Primarch. He had a hand in his own fate, but neither was it simultaneously within his control.

Magnus on multiple occasions tried to prevent the Horus heresy and then submitted to the authority of Russ. Until they started fire bombing his planet and all that shit cause Russ didn't call dad back and double check

>>52490552
The dust didnt settle yet. Thousand sons are still kicking.

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>>52490795
I think the point is that Curze was powerless to stop it.

Other than that I agree with you, although I think Angron could have gotten the nails out with help if he wasn't so angry all the time and let people help him.

>>52491287
Wasn't it a choice between a primarch with the rage switch broken on and a vegetable primarch with Angron and the nails?

>>52490552
Yiffs are always wrong.

>>52491482
Or the best option: putting Angron down.

>>52491287
Wasn't it possible for his Librarians to suppress the effects of the Nails?

>>52490804
Underrated post.

>>52490552
Everyone.
>Emperor never talked about the webway which
>Magnus ruined (along with huge swathes of Terra) out of retardedly high levels of hubris so that he had to be brought in by
>Valdor, whose golden ass always had to be on the fence and so never put his foot down hard enough with
>Russ, who despite his loyalty got extremely trigger happy after getting a rubbing and a blank weapons check from
>Horus, who capitalized on everyone's misery to kidnap thousands of psykers and off a couple of loyalist regiments on the side

The big debate is how to serve out the portion of the blame. Magnus gets a pretty big share of it by actively fucking shit up and moping later, but Prospero as a planet and a people was damned by all of them together.

>>52490552
Almost everyone in 40k is wrong, and evil, and usually stupid or blind to the obvious. That's kind of the point. It's literally the worst of all possible worlds.

>>52490795
>Angron
>The single worst deal experienced by any primarch

I'm glad you see reason. Angron got absolutely shafted while Lorgar just proves that the emperor could be an idiot when the situation demanded

>>52491482
>>52491933
They could not be removed without destroying the emperor's expensive, broken but still kind of functional demigod general and while the world eaters librarians could force him back to a more lucid state it was costly, only got harder to do as he degraded and there simply where not enough left after the edict and nails experiments.

Big E ultimately decided it was better to let angron go and presumably work out how to spin his inevitable death when it happened. He was unlikely to survive the nails long enough to see the crusade end

>>52491287
>I think Angron could have gotten the nails out with help if he wasn't so angry all the time and let people help him.

They literally couldn't. Angron's nails replace parts of his spine and brain.

>>52494093
And the Emperor, with all his space-magic and super-science, couldn't work out a way to regrow that part? Or at least reprogram them to remove the pain and "can only feel good when angry and killing" bits?

>>52494151
If he could, he would have magic'ed fully grown and emotionally healthy Primarchs to begin with instead of making test tube babies, wouldn't he? Fucking use your head before you post you faggot.

>>52494151
DAoT tech was some fucked up shit - the Emperor was good at a lot of things, but the intricacies of a lot of tech wasn't really his wheelhouse - he's a god-level geneticist, not so much an engineer.

He probably could handle the reproduction Nails that were put in the World Eaters' skulls, but the originals were beyond him, or any of the magi that looked at them - as >>52494062 said he decided to just keep Angron around as basically a monster on a chain until the Nails killed him

>>52494042
The least the Emperor could have done is intervene and helped out Angron's army, even if it was planting himself between them and the high riders and saying "okay stop this shit".
Just goes to show how the Emperor valued conquering the galaxy over his sons.

>>52490552
Everyone: Magnus has a slight problem of his own Hubris, Arrogance and Self-Importance.
Russ was a triggerhappy hypocritical primarch who was provoked way to easy
Horus was just an asshole here,
Emps was actually quite reasonable, everything considered, I can't see what he did wrong here actually

>>52490795
I think the idea of Curze was that he was just as much a force of nature as Angron, just as much a slave to his nature as any of the other Primarchs, it's just that part of his nature was knowing he'd be a fuck up.

>>52493983
I don't believe Magnus deserves that big a piece of the blame, he fucked up hard but given the information he had his choices were entirely logical.
Tzeentch is the one is primarily at fault but other than him almost all of these catastrophic errors can be traced back to the Emperor being unable to just explain things to people and just arrogantly assuming that no one would ever go against his orders. In that sense Magnus resemble him quite a lot.

Russ isn't particularly at fault either, he like Magnus got played by Tzeentch and made the best choices he could with the information he had.

>>52490639
Russ took what had already been fucked up and destroyed any hope of recovery and made things even worse by indirectly causing the death of Malcador and the Emperor's internment on the golden throne.
Had Magnus been brought in alive like the emperor initially instructed Magnus would have been stuffed on the golden throne and would have been able to maintain the astronomican and possibly even manage the warprift he made, without that mankind is now even more doomed than initially.

In that sense Russ and Magnus had the opposite problem, Magnus' inability to follow orders led to damnation and Russ's inability to think critically about them sealed the deal.
Both problems could have been averted by the Emperor simply explaining the reason behind his orders to them.

>>52490552
The Emperor obviously. From the very beginning.

>>52496109
You are a legit retard. The Emperor told Horus to tell Russ to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the order. Russ followed orders handed by the Emperor through Horus which he had no reason to doubt especially considering that the Emperor INFRONT OF EVERYONE told Magnus that he will destroy him in he caught him practising sorcery.

>>52494330
He never told Magnus WHY warp magic was bad, he never told Magnus WHY he shouldn't use it, he never told Magnus WHY he needed his talents, and he never told anyone else anything that could have averted the whole thing because it made his actions make sense instead of just seeming like a fucking tyrant throwing orders around arbitrarily.

If he'd told Magnus warp magic was bad because the evil super daemons would do horrible shit to you and everyone around you, Magnus MIGHT have cut it out. If he'd told Magnus that he was needed to help create a stable, safe way through the warp that didn't take chances of daemons and time fuckery, Magnus might have trusted him to do the right thing.

If the Emperor had told Horus literally anything at all about his plans, Horus might have trusted him more than a spooky space voice that gave him visions of the Emperor fucking up the Imperium forever.

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>>52490552

>>52496143
That doesn't really change anything though, Russ still made a bad situation worse by blindly following orders, ruining any hope of recovery from Magnus's mistakes.

Don't get me wrong though, I see both Russ and Magnus as victims of fate (Tzeentch) and the Emperor's arrogance.

>>52496202
I too feel sorry for Mangus, but we're talking about Magnus here, anon.

>>52491654
TGGI

>What is known is that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the battered and bleeding figure of the young Primarch surrounded by scores of alien corpses, high in the northern Desh'elika Mountains. History does not record what species these aliens belonged to, but many Imperial scholars believe them to have been Eldar who attempted to kill the Primarch, due to some psychic foreknowledge of the plague upon the galaxy he would one day become.
>Scores: 5. A group of 20 or more items.
"Scores" of elite Eldar assassins couldn't kill a child?

>>52494151
No. He comments to Arkhan Land that he could have removed them, once he understood what they were doing, but doing so would kill Angron, they were too far advanced, and DAoT tech can be retardedly hard to stop.

>>52490552
The emperor wouldnt listen as Magnus tried to warn him of the Horus heresy. He simply condemned his use of psychic powers. I blame the emperor for this shit show. Yes, Magnus defied the emperor's explicit orders, but in the end, it is the emperor's pride that destroyed everything.

>>52496206
He is suppose to follow orders. He is a commander whose sole task is to be the Emperor unquestioning executioner. He was fulfilling his function. Anything less than that is treason.

Russ simply did nothing wrong. He is innocent.

>>52496660

No one said they were elite. They could have been guardians who took their own initiative at the behest of a young gun leader who got a premonition. Formal Eldar intervention in the GC and HH eras were either of a diplomatic nature (Eldrad's warning to Fulgrim) or of a military nature backed by huge commitments of amassed strength and logistics to a singular location or region.

>>52496805

The edict says to bring Magnus before the throne for judgment. Russ did not bring Magnus before the throne for judgment.

We could have a conversation about how Russ unnecessarily exacerbated the situation until it spun wildly out of his control; but as far as a basic argument goes, Russ fucked up the entire point of the mission.

>>52496804
>ignore the emperor's warning not to use magic
>use forbidden arts to tear a hole in reality in the imperial palace
>in the midst of a daemonic hellstorm, scream that the empror's most trusted general is actually a traitor and that magic totes rules
yes, clearly it is the emperor's pride doing the damage here

>>52496804
>>52496891

A much less arrogant person would have reflected on the nature of the Emperor's order (why the FUCK would the most powerful PSYKER in the GALAXY ban PSYCHIC POWERS despite being a PSYKER) and realize that there must be a good reason why the Emperor wants him to do everything the hard way.

But Magnus was not such a man. Magnus had an ego the size of Russ's dick.

>>52497009
From Magnus' perspective there was a pretty obvious reason, to placate the growing distrust in psykers within the Imperium and to thus keep the peace internally.
It's not even totally wrong.

Also even i agree that Magnus' had problems with his ego so it seems weird you'd go on to imply he has none.

>>52490799
Because sending messages through the warp are so easy and clear...

>>52496805
If Russ had stuck to the original orders Malcador would be alive, the Emperor wouldn't be stuck on the golden throne and Magnus would be atoning for his fuck ups instead of running around destroying the Imperium as a Daemon Primarch.

Russ fucked big time.

>>52490552
The Cyclops. Defending Magnus at this point is just people trying to be edgy

>>52496891
Well yea. If Magnus pulls off such an outrageous show, maybe, as his father, you should at the very least consider what he's saying before dismissing everything he says as lies. In all his infinite might and knowledge, I expected more wisdom from the leader of man kind.

>>52497121
I'm almost certain all these posts are just one really butthurt space wolf player since it's always the exact same half arsed non-argument.

>>52497066

>From Magnus' perspective there was a pretty obvious reason, to placate the growing distrust in psykers within the Imperium and to thus keep the peace internally.
>Magnus wanted to repair the image of psykers as individuals who believe they are above the law (legal, natural, whatever) by breaking the law.

His POV is fucked, he realized it was fucked in hindsight, and he felt so bad about it that he wanted to do the equivalent of a Primarch slitting his wrists on livestream. For all of Russ' touted abilities of introspection into the characters of his brothers, he should have figured out that Magnus was in full suicide mode and just needed to talk to an equal and a friend.

>>52497162
Maybe he did. I mean, I'm still not sure which is canon anymore: That Russ launched wholeheartedly into murder mode, or that he really didn't want to do it, but orders were orders.

I know each of them were canon at one point, I just don't know which one is NOW.

Let us not forget that the Emperor also consorted and made deals with the Chaos god's but on a much grandees scale than Magnus and while also being fully aware of what the chaos gods were unlike Magnus. And not unlike Magnus it also blew up in his face but again on a much grander scale.

Most of this could have been avoided by j
Being less arrogant and realising they might not always be right.

In many ways Magnus and the Emperor are quite alike.

>>52497204

Whats canon was Russ waited 45 minutes for a call back after leaving a few voicemails and then he commenced the siege because he felt personally offended. Thats like your tabletop buddy deciding to bombard your house with rotten eggs because you couldn't return his text messages over a busy afternoon. What we do know about Russ' actions come off as petty at best.

>>52497162
Would you break the law to try and save the life of you brother? Or the save your father from your brother?
I think most people would and Magnus is no different.

>>52490649
This
>>52490639
He fucked up big time, but he was loyal and wasn't told much of the dangers of the warp, he made a mistake and it cost him a fuck load, he wasn't overly arrogant or an asshole

>>52497259
Exactly. Magnus did what was needed to preserve the imperium and warn his father.

>>52496882
>look at me I am retard who uses outdated lore

No, you moron, the edict reached Russ with a demand that he murder Magnus. The Emperor PERSONALLY gave Horus the command and Horus relied the order with his authority on top of the Emperor's.

There is no buts or if. Russ did nothing wrong. It's not his fault that the Emperor trusted Horus to be his messenger.

>>52497113
Oh my god another retard.

MoW says, OUTRIGHT SAYS, that the original orders were to kill Magnus. Russ got no other orders.

>>52497343
>"Son stop sticking your head into the swirling daemon vortex."
>"You can't tell me what to do Daaaad!"
>*sticks head in daemon vortex*
>*super secret project explodes in endless tide of daemons*
>"...Get the Wolves."

Magnus did nothing right.

>>52497603
Oh if only, Emperor never told him it was a swirling Daemon vortex, as far as he was concerned it was the source of the very powers the Emperor had given him at birth.

Also his reasons for delving deeper were undeniably noble, he was trying to save Horus and when that failed he tried to warn the Emperor about it.

Jesus you are so thick headed.

Also if Magnus is at fault for these things despite having no knowledge of what the consequences would be or what he was actually doing (because the Emperor never told him) then Russ is at fault for the death of Malcador and the Emperor's internment of the golden throne as well as Magnus' ascension to daemonhood.

Also the fundamental rule of 40k lore is that it is unreliable and self contradictory, as far as I'm concerned the new version is Imperial propaganda meant to make Russ look better.

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Who was in the wrong here?

>>52497603
Or rather
>Shit, Horus is about to become a traitor to the Imperium and get warp-empowered
>Shit, I failed to convince him to turn back
>Shit, he's the most charismatic of us, and one of the strongest warriors
>Analyze current Primarch status
>Angron: Angry towards Dad, will defect sides
>Curze, Lion: Edgy crazy fuckers, might turn sides
>Alpharius: Can't be sure. Legion is adept at guerrilla, and if turns, could be extremely dangerous
>Perturabo: Butthurt about Dorn being Praetorian and getting to reinforce Terra. Extremely good at sieging.
>Lorgar: Yeah, this fucker is totally on Horus's side after what happened to Monarchia
>Fulgrim: Don't know, but his marines have been acting more arrogant than usual. Fuck fuck fuck.
>Sanguinius, Dorn, Guilliman, Vulcan, Ferrus Manus, Russ, Corax: Hate them or love them, I can trust them to be loyal.
>Khan: Bros for life, but I don't know about his loyalty.
>Mortarion: Shit, he's pissed that Father is totally a psyker.
>Analysis: All Space Marines are loyal to death to their Primarchs. More than half the legions could switch sides, plus auxiliaries. This could mean being defeated if we get caught by surprise.
>Sorry Dad, need to completely ignore your orders because whatever your secret plan is, THE IMPERIUM IS AT STAKE ON THIS ONE.

>>52497767
The answer is always Lorgar.
Lorgar is worst Primarch.

>>52491933
The Nails were built from knowledge given by Khorne. Guess what happened.

The Nails eventually killed their librarian hosts.

>>52497727
He was so arrogant his Legion literally kept daemons as pets. He didn't even consider why there might be a giant magic wall in his way, or why the totally trustworthy multi-eyed bird man would want to give him a power boost to punch through it. And then he didn't even have the balls to just walk out and commit seppuku in front of Russ, choosing instead to take his whole planet and Legion down in the most retarded way possible.

Magnus did nothing right. All he had to do was listen and use a fucking Astropath.

>>52491933
I thought the librarians had the opposite effect, and that just being around them caused his nails to act up

>>52497888
They were able to do a sort of Séance and combine themselves into a gestalt warp entity that could breach Angron's clouded mind and bring him back to semi-sanity. It would always end in most of the participants deaths.

>>52497801
>"I'm sure bursting into the palace at the head of an endless tide of daemon after pinching through this obviously superfluous giant magical wall will make me seem totally trustworthy."
>"What do you mean I fucked everything up."

If Magnus had listened the Emperor would have been able to personally crush Horus before he got Warp-roided into his super form.

>>52497883
Right except they had no idea they were Daemons because the Emperor never told anyone that Daemons existed, they thought they were warp constructs they had made themselves out of raw warp energy.

>>52497883
Also do you know nothing about the lore?
The whole reason Magnus did what he did was because an Astropath would have been too slow and Horus would already be wreaking havoc by the time the message got through.

Lastly, how was Magnus supposed to know the barrier was anything important and not just another weird warp anomally when the Emperor never told him about the webway project.

And again the Emperor insisted on never telling anyone about the malevolent beings in the warp, and so Magnus again didn't know any better in regards to trusting them.

>>52498014
He knew Warp intelligences existed, they were just thought another type of xeno. Also he traded an eye to one years before the HH.

>>52498094
>He didn't use an astropath because it would be too slow

Except it wouldn't have been, the whole Prospero debacle got started months before the HH. And Magnus clearly recognized the Emperor's wards as wards.

>>52498110
They didn't know most of the stuff in the warp was evil though, since the warp entities had been doing their best to deceive them and with the Emperor refusing to enlighten them they didn't have any better information to go on.

>>52498185
Now you're just talking out of your ass, it's explicitly stated that Magnus' did not recognise the barrier as man made and yes it would have been too slow as inter-Segmentum messages can take months to deliver and Prospero is in the Ultima Segmentum not Segmentum Solar.

>>52497801
>>Fulgrim: Don't know, but his marines have been acting more arrogant than usual. Fuck fuck fuck.
That seems perfectly innocuous. There's no reason for alarm.

>>52490552
Everyone, it's a tragedy.

>>52490552

The art director who made it look like a paintjob I used to see at the floors of roller coasters.

>>52498323

Alternatives:

>Break these ward and daddy's law
>Stay still and continue sending messages to Terra and other neighbors
>Mobilize the legion and prepare for Dorns inevitable call to war - analyzing the fates and scheming like a Farseer

>>52498403
You aint wrong about that.

>>52497767
Somehow Khan

>>52497767
>balcony doesn't break

>>52496143
>The Emperor told Horus to tell Russ to arrest Magnus
That's not how things were told in Inferno. Emperor asked for a Censure Host, composed of SoS, Custodes, SW and some contingents of the Imperial Army. They all had to meet before going to gether to Prospero. Russ reached the rezenvous point before the Terran group and then was met by a delegation from SoH, which brought a missive from Horus to Russ.

>>52490552
Neither of them. Magnus only sent a message to the Emperor warning him of Horus. Not his fault the Emperor didn't have good defenses set up against the Warp.

>>52498441
I mean those aren't mutually exclusive and he was probably planning on doing all.

Besides in the position he was in breaking a rather innocuous barrier and a law that was pretty hypocritical seems like a rather small price to pay to prevent a massive empire wide rebellion.

Again things only seemed this way because the Emperor never told anyone about the extremely sensitive project he had going on, so Magnus had no way of knowing there even was anything there to fuck up.

No matter what happened we can a agree that Horus did nothing wrong right? He never wanted to be a rebel or a traitor. He was the perfect son. The closest to his father any of the primarchs were.

Horus was poisoned with space ebola aids and then told by his piece of shit brother that his dad was becoming everything they had fought against for hundreds of years during the black crusade. Horus is the real tragedy here.

Thats why the emps didnt kill him... and saved his soul for when the imperium needs him most again.

>>52498665
Is this some bizarre deflection tactic?
Well taking this at face value, though Horus is certainly a tragic figure there was a turning point at which he went from well intentioned but misguided to truly evil, for Horus it was shortly after his corruption at the hands of Erebus just as for Magnus it was his arrival at the planet of Sorcerers.

>Thats why the emps didnt kill him... and saved his soul for when the imperium needs him most again.
And that is about retarded enough that I could see GW do it. So go share your fan fiction with them, they might even hire you.

>>52498585
Shitty Forge World canon < Actual Codex fluff

In Wrath of Magnus it comes right out and says it's his fault he's a daemon, no matter how much he whines otherwise. It wasn't Russ or the Emperor who made him do deals with daemons and ignore Nikea, it was his own utter surety in his genius and control.

>>52498914
Remember that all 40k lore is unreliable, what you are reading is the imperial perspective, the FW books are far more neutral and factual, and quite frankly a lot better written.

Also the Emperor is still a hypocrite here cause he also made deals with the Chaos gods and also had them backfire spectacularly because he was also absolutely sure in his own genius and mastery over the warp.

>>52498914
Prospero Burns also has nothing saying the Emperor told Russ to kill Magnus.

You can not like BL or FW, but their Prospero narratives are much better than from a supplement.

Who cares, 30k and Horus Heresy is a poorly written shitshow anyways.

>>52490552
whoever made this image so blurry

>>52498981
>The Emperor did deals with Chaos

According to... Chaos, who as we all know are an extraordinarily reliable and trustworthy lot, who also stop their endless wars with each other to hand out ridiculous amounts of power to a random mortal with absolutely no way to take it back. I'm sure doling out obscene amount of psychic power to a mortal is something, say, Khorne would have no problem with.

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>>52499104

>>52490639
This is the only correct answer.

>>52497767
Angron for grabbing the railing too hard. That shit's expensive, Angron. Stop it.

>>52497953
If the Emperor had been even remotely honest with the primarchs about the nature of the warp, or about his secret plans Magnus might have listened to him.

>>52499133
Well if you can choose to ignore that lore, I'm going to choose to ignore that crap from WoM.

Besides if we assume that it is true than the Chaos gods would have had the deal work out almost perfectly in the end, after all the Emperor is a corpse, his realm is in ruins and they got back at least half of the power they gave out in the form of the traitor Primarchs as well as vast armies by which to further spread their power.

>>52499220
Stop replying to yourself.

>>52499257
I'm not ignoring the gods' claims. I'm saying they're as plausible as their claims to Horus to be harmless spirits being bullied by the Emperor and totally uninterested in the material realm.

>>52499364
And I clearly just explained to you why they are in fact quite plausible.

>>52499431
No, they aren't. Not only are the gods mortal enemies and not inclined to grant power to the same guy (since the Bel'aloe incident), they never give out goodies they can't take back. One of them is explicitly against the idea of trickery and witchcraft in general. They don't do that kind of thing.

>>52499527
Right but as I explained they totally did have a way of taking back the power used to make the Primarchs and that is by corrupting the Primarchs.

Also Khorne was totally on board with scattering the Primarchs so clearly he isn't always against deceptive plans and tricks.

>>52499633
>"BRING ME THE WITCH'S HEAD! BLOOD AND SKULLS AND SKULLS AND BLOOD AND BLOOD-"
>"Excuse me Mr. Blood God, I'd like to make a deal with you. I need some extra psychic witchcraft to make some sons who I totally don't plan to use against you guys."
>"SURE, I'M ALWAYS HAPPY TO HELP AN UP-AND-COMING PSYCHIC LEADER INSTEAD OF TAKING HIS SKULL."
>He actually thinks this is plausible.

Alternative scenario: they were lying through their teeth, as most of them regularly do.

>>52498658

>I mean those aren't mutually exclusive and he was probably planning on doing all.

He wanted to surprise the Emperor and have the Emperor stop the HH with him by his side. Thats as far as his planning went. Then he broke the entire thing and sulked for like 10 weeks.

>the Emperor never told anyone about the extremely sensitive project he had going on

Trust the Emperor. Magnus didn't, and hundreds of thousands of people died for it in its immediate aftermath. Before Prospero, there was absolutely no legitimate reason for anyone in the Imperium to doubt the will and the wisdom of the Emperor.

>>52500060
>Trust the Emperor.
Right and then Leman Russ did trust the Emperor and made things even worse.

>He wanted to surprise the Emperor and have the Emperor stop the HH with him by his side.
Also you seem to be making up more shit, that was never Magnus' intention, he simply made rash decisions because he thought time was of the essence.

Why do you have such an intense hateboner for Magnus though and why are you so convinced that the Emperor can do no wrong? Like it seems downright personal the fervour with which you insist that Magnus was pure evil.

Also why would you even want a version of this story in which Magnus is pure evil and irredeemable from the start? A tragic fall from grace is much more interesting of a story than a simple black and white conflict with moustache twirling villains and good guys in white hats.

>>52499956
Khorne gave Lorgar, who is a psykers, his power when all four chaos gods ascended him as is clearly stated in WoM.
Khorne is a hypocrite like all the Chaos gods and is not at all above doing downright Tzeentchian things.
He is certainly not above working with a psykers if it also involves fucking them over in the long run.

>>52500231

>Right and then Leman Russ did trust the Emperor and made things even worse.

If he did, he would have trusted Constantine Valdor's judgment.

>Also you seem to be making up more shit, that was never Magnus' intention, he simply made rash decisions because he thought time was of the essence.

Magnus said he wouldn't break the Edict, a law enforced by the Emperor's word. He broke the Edict, and through this illegal act violated the Emperor's own law. He did not trust the Emperor's authority.

Magnus wanted to warn the most powerful psyker in the galaxy what the second most powerful psyker in the galaxy only just discovered. How arrogant can you be to assume that someone almost infinitely more powerful and wiser than you to not already know? He did not trust the Emperor's power.

>why would you even want a version of this story in which Magnus is pure evil and irredeemable from the start

Except Magnus was not pure and irredeemable from the start. Arrogance is not evil.

>>52491482
Not in the most recent canon.

>>52500282
Lorgar is a Primarch who worships Chaos as a pantheon. A choice prize even if you don't believe he just did a ritual himself like with Angron.

Again, you fail to supply any proof beyond the word of a pack of insane and thoroughly shameless liars that the Emperor ever did any deals with them.

>>52498094
>>52498014
He's got his lore from TTS. Just stop guys

>>52500317
Except you're clearly trying to make him out to be irredeemably vile in all aspects, when in reality he is a much more nuanced character.

Also pretty much every single other legion also violated the Edict of Nikea.
He was also completely right in that the Emperor actually didn't know about Horus, so kind of a shit example there.

Besides the Emperor is a total fuckup in almost every regard, he is not wise in the slightest and most of the things that went wrong in the Horus Heresy are the result of his negligence or arrogance.

Again I must ask, why do you insist on jerking yourself off to the Emperor about how perfect and infallible he is? When by every single account he was a deeply flawed character.

>>52500445
Circumstantial evidence my man, do you understand what it is?

>>52500445
It still shows that all of the Chaos gods are capable of working together, same with scattering the Primarchs.
Why is it then so unreasonable for them to work together to trick and fuck over the Emperor?

>>52500541
>Circumstantial evidence my man, do you understand what it is?
Something worth jack shit.

>>52500648
Wow look at this idiot right here.
Do you have actual autism or something? I mean that must be it because you seem to only be able to understand something if it was written out in big bold colourful letters.

>>52500541

>Except you're clearly trying to make him out to be irredeemably vile in all aspects, when in reality he is a much more nuanced character.

Maybe thats because you find his arrogance vile but don't want to admit how pride and arrogance are core pillars of his character. Similarly, being a 'nuanced character' doesn't absolve him of blame - which you seem to really dislike.

>Also pretty much every single other legion also violated the Edict of Nikea.
>Its okay because other people did it too.

>He was also completely right in that the Emperor actually didn't know about Horus
He knew about the heresy. He didn't know the exact timeline of the heresy or who the actors exactly were. But that didn't matter because the heresy is inevitable. Magnus tried to warn the Emperor of an inevitable event to justify sorcery. Instead, Magnus could have use his power to scan the fates and change the outcomes of Calth or Istvaan V. That wasn't what happened.

>Besides the Emperor is a total fuckup in almost every regard
Oh. You're one of those people.

>Again I must ask, why do you insist on jerking yourself off to the Emperor about how perfect and infallible he is? When by every single account he was a deeply flawed character.
No one said perfect or infallible. No one brought up the Emperor's flaws - except you. This conversation is about Magnus' flaws and your inability to accept that Magnus doomed himself with his own arrogance when other available options would have been sanctioned, viable, and ultimately better choices.

>>52500591
They work together against a threat to them all. Therefore they would work together to help someone else.

Logic.

>>52500282
>>52500445
>>52500591
>>52500723

The funny part about the Chaos narrative is if you accept it, then essentially a human being tricked the Chaos gods with false promises. Why would they lie about being tricked, if it reveals that they can be tricked? If you accept the Chaos narrative, you accept that the Chaos gods share all the same emotions of a mortal - fear, pride, arrogance, hate, admiration - and are therefore only gods in the scale of power that they wield.

Which means they have the capability to lie. Which means its very likely that part of this crafted narrative is in fact a lie. And some of them really like lying.

Lorgar was really gullible, you see.

>>52500723
They work together against a threat to them all.
Therefore they would work together against a threat to them all by deceiving the threat and screwing them over in the long run.

Shit checks out.

>>52500823
That's not how the Blood God rolls, yo. And you have yet to provide evidence they weren't lying.

>>52500793
Holy shit you should become an Olympian because those were some impressive mental gymnastics.

>>52500710
Right so Magnus was completely correct in that the Emperor didn't know Horus was going to betray him.

In general you seem to insist that absolutely everything is Magnus' fault though, that he is solely to blame and that no one else did anything wrong.

Magnus was a virtuous individual brought low not only by his hubris and gullibility (which did play a part) but also by the deceptions of the gods, the Emperor's arrogance and his brothers blind loyalty.

>>52500940
What they said matches up with what happened, there's your evidence.

>>52500940
Right, except I don't know the time all the chaos gods scattered the Primarchs so as to subtly and slowly corrupt them through their upbringing? That's a long term plan that involves trickery and deception.

>>52501018
No, it doesn't. It makes Chaos seem less obviously evil for its dupes. There's no evidence at all the Emperor required their power to make Primarchs.

Everyone is at fault.

This is why I dislike BL stories so much. Every book tries to make all parties the reasonable one, but you can't. Reasonable people don't get caught up in genocides.

I think this is why Angron and Khan get the universal praise in BL books. Angron is and never will be righteous while Khan faffed about in the fringes causing no controversy.

>Emps made a deal with the Chaos Gods for the Primarchs

What the fuck exactly did the Emperor promise them?

>>52501760
To spread chaos worship throughout mankind.
Which is exactly what they ended up getting in the end, or at least for about 50% of the Imperium.

The Emperor first and foremost. Magnus was the first primarch he made contact with, he was probably the closest primarch to the emperor because of both being tied to the warp so much, as a reward for his faithful service big E was planning on having him sit on a throne for eternity as a living battery.

>>52490552
Both of them, they fucked up in different ways while trying not to. In the process they ruined each other.

>>52499133
>According to... Chaos,

Why do you keep saying that you piece of shit? It's according to the Emperor's companion who was with him when he made the deal.

>>52498585
>Inferno

FW HH books are written by an in-verse character as historical documents. They are not reliable lore sources.

>>52502614

>Red books are not reliable lore sources

Then nothing is and everything is either conjecture or a lie.

>>52502529
>for eternity
Pretty sure it would only be necessary until the completion of the human webway.

>>52502723

Pretty sure the human webway was intended to be powered by the golden throne too.

>>52502685
Nope.

Only codexes and novels are reliable. The former is an out-verse source and the latter is from the PoV of guys who were there.

>>52497583
have you read inferno?

>>52503651
Kendel's writing doesn't interest me. She wasn't there when the order was given, Heck, she doesn't even write down what Mangus actually did to invoke the Emperor's sanction.

>>52502578
No, she speculates that maybe he made some kind of agreement, and maybe that energy was used for the primarchs. The only one who says Chaos helped make the Primarchs is a daemon prince, who are well known for their honesty.

Honestly, use your head. If Chaos had the power to make Primarchs they would just have done that to begin with instead of corrupting the Emperor's. Daemon Primarchs are their best henchmen, there's no way each god wouldn't make more if they could.

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>>52503384
>30k codexes are not reliable source of 30k info

>>52503772
What seems likely to me is that the Chaos gods had the raw warp energy to to power the creation of the Primarchs but lacked the mastery over creation to shape that energy as well as the Emperor could.

>>52503772
If it is implied or stated from multiple different characters it is probably true, it's the basic level of writing one would expect from BL.

>>52503850
They all get excited about the opportunity to corrupt Guilliman when he returns (except Khorne who just wants his skull). Primarchs are something more than just Warp energy, they're unique confluences of fate that can even throw Kairos Fateweaver's visions off. They're beyond Chaos' power to make. Heck, Chaos can't even make Space Marines, they have to steal them.

>>52503775
They are not codexes. They are written as Kendel's historical records. The bitch wasn't even a part of 95% of the HH events. She is not reliable.

>>52503772
Nope, she doesn't. Stop lying.

He tells her to hold the Gateway to the Gods since due to him taking their power he is weak against them. Also the Fire Angel, idiot. Remember what his death revealed.

> If Chaos had the power to make Primarchs they would just have done

There is no need since Primarchs are on par with Greater Daemons and Chaos has billions of these. Heck, there are daemon princes that are more powerful than the primarchs (Doombreed and Be'lakor. Even a single animal daemon was more powerful than the Emperor himself (Drach'nyen).

You are dumb as rock if you think that Primarchs ranked high in the power scale.

>>52503915
What obnoxious headcanon. Why the primarchs and space marines are important? Because they make for great agents in real space where the power of Chaos is limited. Other than that, Primarchs are nothing.

Abaddon hammered that point when he proved his supremacy over the Daemon Primarchs or when Draigo one shotted Morty.

>>52490804
You mean in the lore right, because it would be horrifying if there are some real thousands son running around.

>>52503926
What the fuck is a Fire Angel besides a loyalist SM Chapter?

>>52504080
The psychic guardian construct that was created when the Emperor brain-blocked the memory of Molech and his deal with the Chaos Gods from the minds of the Primarchs.

>>52503985
>What obnoxious headcanon. Why the primarchs and space marines are important? Because they make for great agents in real space where the power of Chaos is limited.

Now thats headcanon. Chaos had a firm hold on the materium well before m32, well before DAoT, well before Slaanesh, well before humanity evolved from apes. Old lore even states that one of the most feared of all beings in the warp are Chaos Farseers.

They want Primarchs because they are super rare gamechangers. Otherwise they would just make their own. They can't make daemons on par with Primarchs because such daemons keep trying to unseat them and failing miserably, or are too dimwitted to pursue their own devices.

Why even treasure Magnus, half blind to his own arrogance, when theres Kairos Fateweaver, who has literally seen all things past and future? Why value Mortarion so much when he resisted the touch of Nurgle so violently compared to the other daemons? Why keep Angron when Bloodthirsters are a dime a dozen?

It is because they are so special that the Ruinous Powers cannot create these special beings themselves.

>>52503926
>Drach'nyen was more powerful than the Emperor

No it fucking wasn't. It was the only daemon that could even stand to be in his presence for more than a few seconds, but it lost its fight and got shoved in a sword. Be'lakor is a joke that lost to a single company of IF and the Legion of the Damned.

Primarchs are so powerful the gods take a personal interest in them, as shown the moment Guilliman popped back up. All the Chaos Gods learned about it quickly and immediately focused most of their attentions on him, and he's just one of them.

>>52504151

Tzeentch also tried to get to Lion'el with the Changling.

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>>52503926
>There is no need since Primarchs are on par with Greater Daemons and Chaos has billions of these.
The fuck are you talking about? Both in fluff and rules Primarchs are more than capable of taking on greater daemons.

On the table Bobby, Horus, and Angron can whoop greater deamons without breaking a sweat.

>Chaos has billions of these
[Citation Needed]
It costs a significant fraction of the god's power to birth a greater demon. Additionally, Primarchs can stay in real space indefinitely, while for Greater Demons it takes a tremendously difficult ritual to bring them into realspace for just one battle.

You are dumb as a rock if you think greater daemons are as dangerous as Primarchs.

>>52504146
>Now thats headcanon. Chaos had a firm hold on the materium well before m32, well before DAoT, well before Slaanesh, well before humanity evolved from apes. Old lore even states that one of the most feared of all beings in the warp are Chaos Farseers.

Nope, the Pylons and Daemon Cages were still keeping Chaos generally out. Try to keep up with the lore. Chaos needed mortal agents to come into reality.

>They want Primarchs because they are super rare gamechangers.

Only in real space.

>Otherwise they would just make their own.

They don't have to. They can create way more powerful beings.

>They can't make daemons on par with Primarchs because such daemons keep trying to unseat them and failing miserably, or are too dimwitted to pursue their own devices.

Nice heacanon but Doombreed and Be'lakor are both stated to be mighier than the Primarchs.

>Why even treasure Magnus, half blind to his own arrogance, when theres Kairos Fateweaver, who has literally seen all things past and future?
>Why value Mortarion so much when he resisted the touch of Nurgle so violently compared to the other daemons?

They are trophies and nothing more.

Tzeentch and Nurgle have more powerful servants around like M'kar.

>Why keep Angron when Bloodthirsters are a dime a dozen?

Angron ranks lower than Doombreed who was a guy with a horse. Angron so weak that Abaddon made him kneel.

>It is because they are so special that the Ruinous Powers cannot create these special beings themselves.

Be'lakor exists. Your argument is invalid.

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>>52504151
>No it fucking wasn't. It was the only daemon that could even stand to be in his presence for more than a few seconds, but it lost its fight and got shoved in a sword.

Yes, it is. The Emperor tricked it into the Custodes but the text says that ir was beyond the Emperor power to destroy and it will kill him no matter what.

>Be'lakor is a joke that lost to a single company of IF and the Legion of the Damned.

Still more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs. The Chaos Gods just abandoned him in crucial hour.

His defeat is less humiliating the the Daemon Primarchs'.

>Primarchs are so powerful the gods take a personal interest in them, as shown the moment Guilliman popped back up. All the Chaos Gods learned about it quickly and immediately focused most of their attentions on him, and he's just one of them.

Again, as sport and a trophy.

>The fuck are you talking about? Both in fluff and rules Primarchs are more than capable of taking on greater daemons.

Nope, Skarbrand was more than a march for Girlyman and he isn't front the First Host.

>[Citation Needed]

Picture related. Now do the math.

/v/fags leaves

>It costs a significant fraction of the god's power to birth a greater demon. Additionally, Primarchs can stay in real space indefinitely, while for Greater Demons it takes a tremendously difficult ritual to bring them into realspace for just one battle.

Not anymore. If you noticed the Pylons are few in number these days and the walls of reality are thinner than ever before.

>You are dumb as a rock if you think greater daemons are as dangerous as Primarchs.

Billions vs a dozen.....

I will take billions.

>>52504240
Be'lakor sucks, you idiot. He straight-up failed miserably in the last thing he tried, which was teaming up with Shon'tu to take the Phalanx. His minions got rekd, Shon'tu died, and the Chaos Gods considered him so insignificant that they wouldn't even give him more daemon armies in the middle of the Warp. A single company crushed him and sent him howling back home. A Primarch would have torn through them all by himself.

>>52504325
Skarbrand used to be straight-up Khorne's favorite and the most powerful Bloodthirster of all, and Guilliman wrecked him. That job goes to Ang'grath the Unbound these days, and Lorgar, the weakest Primarch, kicked his head in.

Your bullshit is obvious, even to a Chaos player like me.

>>52504332
>Be'lakor sucks,

Yes, and? Still more powerful than the daemon primarchs. At least he wasn't defeated by a single punch.

> single company crushed him and sent him howling back home.

No, he was wounded and surrounded IF and LotD. He choose to escape into the Warp and most likely go to plan B.

>nd the Chaos Gods considered him so insignificant

Nah, they just like to see him suffer. Usually daemons come to the party by themselves with no orders needed. The Chaos Gods must have forbidden the daemons from helping him knowing of his plan to topple Abaddon.

>>52496196
First, Magnus came and went into planets destroyed by sorcery he knew the risks and just plainly ignore it because he thought he knew more than anybody else so that's not fucking excuse everybody knew of this risks and kept this studies within what the Emperor allowed (astropaths, navigators, etc) and even Marines that faced this dangers like death guard and space wolves, even those willing to do new studies like the white scars thought this should be done with extreme care and limitations, Magnus said nah and went to bathe in the lake of shit and sorcery

Secondly, no Magnus did knew of this beings and faced some of them, he didn't cut it out he kept strolling trough sorcery with no regards to safety and security, also the Emperor couldn't afford to anyone outside his own personal to knew of his project, even less the son that communed with the beings residing in the warp, everyone knew Magnus liked to expend a shit load of time doing sorcery and even continued to practice it after Nikea

No again the primarchs had a strong presence in the warp, it was too risky to share any information on the project them.

>>52504366
>karbrand used to be straight-up Khorne's favorite and the most powerful Bloodthirster of all, and Guilliman wrecked him.

Not anymore. There are more powerful BTs.

And Girlyman didn't fight him a straight up fight. When they were engaged, they were matched.

Girlyman running while blowing up the Templar's power sword that was buried in Skarbrand chest is what ended the fight.

>at job goes to Ang'grath the Unbound these days, and Lorgar, the weakest Primarch, kicked his head in.

Awakened Lorgar who was a powerful psyker who put Horus to pause and defeated Daemon Fulgrim. You should learn your lore.

>>52496660
And yet was captured by a simple human slaver and lobotomised, Angron is a complete failure as a primarch

>>52504428
by IF and LotD

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>>52499247
Could you imagine what his room was like? What a mess, I bet he left clothes and dirty socks everywhere.

He's probably got a massive bed which he doesn't make every morning
I bet he was the was the worst mannered primarch by far.

Probably didn't eat his vegetables either, and probably drank milk straight from the jug


Worst primarch.

>>52504497
As a child*

>>52504428
No, he isn't. He fails to exceed the daemon primarchs whether on the tabletop or in the fluff. Magnus alone makes mincemeat of that loser.

>Nah they just like to see him suffer.

Nice headcannon you got there.

>>52504484
Skarbrand didn't lose any of his power, just his mind. And he still couldn't beat Guilliman. Lorgar hadn't learned to use his psychic powers yet, he was attacked in the middle of his enlightenment. He still kicked the crap out of the Skull Throne's own guardian no problem.

>Defeated Daemon Fulgrim

No, he defeated the daemon that was temporarily hitching a ride in Fulgrim's body. You know, the one Fulgrim later manhandled into submission from inside a painting?

Primarchs > Daemons. Deal with it.

>>52504676
>No, he isn't. He fails to exceed the daemon primarchs whether on the tabletop or in the fluff. Magnus alone makes mincemeat of that loser.

Nope, his dateslate states he is the most powerful and greatest of the daemon princes.

Heck, even in the Ahriman series a Thousand Sons daemon specilist who have summoned Doombreed and have been in the presence of Magnus comments that Be'lakor is way more powerful than any daemon he encountered before.

>Nice headcannon you got there.

Nope, it's his backstory. The Gods enjoy thwarting Be'lakor.

>>52504676
>Skarbrand didn't lose any of his power

He was exceeded by a slew of more powerful BTs.

>And he still couldn't beat Guilliman

The fight wasn't allowed to continue. They were evenly matched. Girlyman decided to run.

> Lorgar hadn't learned to use his psychic powers yet,

Yes, he did. He comments that he finally became a full primarch unlocking the power within.

>No, he defeated the daemon that was temporarily hitching a ride in Fulgrim's body.

Still counts as a defeated Primarch.

>Primarchs > Daemons. Deal with it.

Nope.

>>52497801
No anon the rational thing to do was take your legion to Terra ask, arrive with all your shit into solar system personally and ask for an audience and the warning of Horus betrayal, then help Rogal Dorn to fortify Terra before Horus arrives instead of LoL let's use daemon powers to send the message, him arriving Terra would had make Russ rush to Sol system as well and then you would had 2 more legions on Terra when invasion happened.

>whine about Be'lakor being forced to retreat against Imperial Fists and Legion of the Damned when he ran out of forces
>Conveniently forgets that Abaddon's adventuring party defeated Angron, Mort, and Magnus

Hypocrisy....oh oh oh.

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Meet Iskandor Khayon the Black. Named "The Black" by the Thousand Sons for his many crimes against their bloodline and former legion.

One of his titles is Kingbreaker. Earned after helping Abaddon break Magnus, forcing the primarch to kneel before the Warmaster in defeat.

>>52504759
>His dateslate stats he is the most powerful and greatest

Except both rules and fluff prove that's just another exaggeration. Magnus or Angron would have slaughtered everyone on the Phalanx by themselves. He's always failed.

>It's his backstory

No, his backstory is that he's unwitting pawn in their struggle.

>Skarbrand was exceeded

No, he wasn't. He was the most powerful to the extent he actually managed to damage Khorne's armor and was only defeated by the Blood God himself. There's never been a single bit of fluff of any BT exceeding him. Ever,

>Guilliman decided to run

Because he was in the middle of a battle in enemy territory, moron.

>Yes he did.

He unlocked himself *after* kicking the daemon's ass, moron.

>Still counts as a defeated Primarch

No, it doesn't, because that daemon was inept as fuck and soon wrangled by the actual Primarch soul. It only achieved anything by surprising Fulgrim at a very low point.

>Nope.

Nice headcannon. Pity daemons keep getting stomped by Primarchs, huh?

>>52504641
I would think that Russ would have been the 'dirtiest' primarch, his room probably would have had half naked women covered in wolf skins stewed around the place with half eaten bones and ale tankards from last night's party.

I don't even want to think about what Curze's and mortarian s rooms would have looked like.

>>52504811
Except he never defeated them. He impressed or bargained with them to gain their support. The Eye of Night to Mortarion, fighting in the pits for Angron, etc. Except Magnus, who literally just told him to piss off so he had to go talk to Ahriman instead.

>>52504919
Someone post the footstool story for this guy.

>>52504913
>Except both rules and fluff prove that's just another exaggeration. Magnus or Angron would have slaughtered everyone on the Phalanx by themselves. He's always failed.

I don't think so.

They would have failed in more humiliating fashion like when Abaddon bitch slapped both them.

>No, he wasn't. He was the most powerful to the extent he actually managed to damage Khorne's armor and was only defeated by the Blood God himself. There's never been a single bit of fluff of any BT exceeding him. Ever,

And with that you reveal you are talking bullshit.

Angry-roth was created to be Skarbrand replacement and his superior in every single way.

In Vraks lore and the Bloodoath campaign book it says that he is the mightiest BT who sits on the top of the First Host.

>No, his backstory is that he's unwitting pawn in their struggle.

That the Chaos Gods love to mess with.

>Because he was in the middle of a battle in enemy territory, moron.

So the fight wasn't concluded.

>He unlocked himself *after* kicking the daemon's ass, moron.

Before that.

>No, it doesn't, because that daemon was inept as fuck and soon wrangled by the actual Primarch soul. It only achieved anything by surprising Fulgrim at a very low point.

Nope, more skilled considering that he didn't get defeated and captured by his OWN men like Fulgrim did.

>Nice headcannon.

Just canon.

>>52504675
>child
That killed several eldar aspect warriors which are way above and beyond some enslaver that needs to go around the desert to capture new slave ergo not even a slave Lord just a guy with a transport vehicle

>>52504956
Wrong that was during the planning of the 13th Black Crusade. And Magnus ultimately fell in line.

I am talking about while they were prepping for the 1st Black Crusade. Abaddon went around to all the Daemon primarchs and demanded that they acknowledge him as Warmaster. All agreed save three. Magnus, Angron, and Mort. He defeated them all and forced them to kneel. Source is the Talon of Horus.

Your primarchs are bitches to a mortal.

>>52505021
Anon stop embarrassing yourself, the other anon already proved you wrong, now you're just grasping straws

>>52505091
Except I have lore to back me up and ready to post it. Point out what's wrong so I can post the lore and prove that you both are clueless cunts.

>>52505060
Kek you actually regard ADB's fankwank as canon?

>"H-He forced them to bow down to him."

Then why, in his own supplement, does Magnus just flat-out ignore Abaddon when he comes knocking? That's not the behavior of servant to a master.

>Magnus fell into line.

Wrong. Abaddon was terrified by the prospect of Guilliman awakening and tried to have him killed before it could happen. Magnus thought it sounded like a good time and didn't kill him when he had the chance.

>>52505143
>Kek you actually regard ADB's fankwank as canon?

The moment you start doing that you admit that you lost.

>Then why, in his own supplement, does Magnus just flat-out ignore Abaddon when he comes knocking? That's not the behavior of servant to a master.

He fell in line before Curse of Wulfen says that Magnus became an ally of Abaddon and they both planned the Fenris invasion.

>Abaddon was terrified by the prospect of Guilliman

More like pissed since it might derail his plans. Magnus was happy since he has another target for his revenge.

And that isn't even relevant.

>>52505021
>Angry-roth was created to be Skarbrand replacement and his superior in every single way.

Ang'grath is the top dog *because* Skarbrand is no longer in Khorne's service. Not only are you talking out of your ass, but even if it were true Lorgar, weaker than Guilliman, bitch-slapped Ang'grath before coming into his full power.

>Before that

After it. Lorgar hadn't received his Chaos-roids when that fight occurred. It was a test to see if he was worthy of Khorne's esteem.

>Nope, more skilled considering that he didn't get defeated and captured by his OWN men like Fulgrim did.

Fulgrim allowed them to capture him to prove a point. Lucius realizes that mid-story, and Fulgrim breaks out of his shackles the literal moment he feels like it.

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>>52505138
Not even other chaos players are supporting your claims, anon just stop it is for your own good.

>>52505206
>He fell in line before Curse of Wulfen says that Magnus became an ally of Abaddon and they both planned the Fenris invasion.

No, it doesn't. It was Magnus' personal project.

>
More like pissed since it might derail his plans. Magnus was happy since he has another target for his revenge.

And Magnus doesn't share Abaddon's goals and makes no effort to kill him when he could despite the Warmaster's wishes.

>And that isn't even relevant.

The mere risk of a Primarch returning is enough to get attention of the gods and force the Warmaster to send a massive invasion force just to prevent that from happening. Which is routed the mere hours after Guilliman shows up. Abaddon's chosen henchmen get whooped, freak out, and try to run away.

They fail.

>>52505231
>Ang'grath is the top dog *because* Skarbrand is no longer in Khorne's service. Not only are you talking out of your ass, but even if it were true

You total bitch. Read the Vrak lore. Angry-roth was created specifically to replace Skarbrand and Khorne made him superior to Skarband in ever aspect.

And you idiot Skarbrand is said to be the most devoted servant of Khorne. You are trying to be a weasel but come out as dumb.

>After it.

BE-FORE.

Do I have to start posting excerpts? think I have to.

>Fulgrim allowed them to capture him to prove a point. Lucius realizes that mid-story

Him being KO'ed in the floor says otherwise.

>>52505311
>No, it doesn't. It was Magnus' personal project.

False. The Alpha legion operative says it was a joint project by Abaddon and Magnus in Curse of the Wulfen.

>And Magnus doesn't share Abaddon's goals and makes no effort to kill him when he could despite the Warmaster's wishes.

Except that Magnus tried to use Girlyman to lead him to Terra to invade it and then kill him.

>The mere risk of a Primarch returning is enough to get attention of the gods and force the Warmaster to send a massive invasion force just to prevent that from happening. Which is routed the mere hours after Guilliman shows up.

Because of the hope and unity he brings not because of his personal strength,

>Abaddon's chosen henchmen get whooped, freak out, and try to run away.

False. The Black Legion dudes weren't afraid of Girlyman. The book has them fighting him courageously.

>>52505289
That's some nice fallacy you got going there. Truth is truth regardless who supports it. What matters is proof.

>>52505325
Ang'grath was created to *replace* Skarbrand. He's never been shown to exceed him, and even if he did that would only make Primarchs more powerful since Lorgar kicked his ass.

>BE-FORE

WRONG!

>Him being KO'ed in the floor says otherwise.

His breaking his bonds in an instant says you're an idiot. Lucius himself realizes it was nothing but a game to Fulgrim and they were deluded to think they could really take him against his will.

>>52505411
Posting excerots from novels and sources because the other anon is a failure.

>After the Canticle City came the Illumination, when we battled those who would not swear allegiance to the Warmaster and sought to end our rise. During that era we traversed the Empire of the Eye, ending the Legion Wars with our ascendance above the Nine, and one by one the primarchs bowed before Abaddon. Some willingly, some only grudgingly, and one who had to be brought to his knees. But all of them bowed in the end: Lorgar, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Angron, my father Magnus... even Mortarion, who came closest of all to slaying us through his holy plagues.

-Talon of Horus

Book 2 is coming this year. Looking forward to some Primarch busting?

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>>52505391
>Except that Magnus tried to use Girlyman to lead him to Terra to invade it and then kill him.

Magnus tried to use Guilliman to get to the Emperor, dumbass, in the process displaying more accurate foresight than Kairos Fateweaver. Killing him was Plan B after getting to the Golden Throne fell through.

>Because of the hope and unity he brings not because of his personal strength,

Because both.

>False. The Black Legion dudes weren't afraid of Girlyman. The book has them fighting him courageously.

>"The last of the heretic Sorcerers lost his nerve, barking orders at his underlings to cover his retreat from the shrine.
>"Leaderless, reaped like corn by the seemingly unstoppable Primarch and his allies, the last of the Black Legionaries turned and fled. Not a single one of them would escape the Fortress of Hera alive."

You're an idiot.

>>52505426
>Ang'grath was created to *replace* Skarbrand. He's never been shown to exceed him, and even if he did that would only make Primarchs more powerful since Lorgar kicked his ass.

Shown? You mean you didn't read the part where Khorne is said to have made him stronger than Skarband.

Considering that you continuously lie like nobody should trust you on the novels since a single line sentence in the Vraks book is too much for you.

>>52505460
A Chaos Sorcerer boasts to the Imperial Inquisition that his master is invincible and makes Primarchs bow to him.

The actual Black Legion supplement makes clear Abaddon either negotiates with or impresses the Primarchs. They do not treat him as an overlord, to the point of blowing him off when they feel like it.

Reading comprehension is not your thing, is it?

>>52505524
>Magnus tried to use Guilliman to get to the Emperor, dumbass,

So how does this contradict what I said? He used him to try to invade Terra.

>Killing him was Plan B after getting to the Golden Throne fell through.

He planned to get his revenge on him all along. As in kill him.

>Because both.

Nope, Abaddom defeated Primarchs before. Girlyman is no different. It's the unity and hope Abddon would struggle to defeat.

>You're an idiot.

No, you are the idiot. Read the parts at the start before the battle was lot.

>>52505580
>So how does this contradict what I said? He used him to try to invade Terra.

Abaddon wants Guilliman dead right away, Magnus doesn't care about his wishes.

>Nope, Abaddom defeated Primarchs before. Girlyman is no different. It's the unity and hope Abddon would struggle to defeat.

Abaddon defeated Primarchs according to a guy locked in an Imperial dungeon explicitly reciting propaganda on his behalf, trying to demoralize the Inquisition.

>No, you are the idiot. Read the parts at the start before the battle was lot.

They attacked Guilliman, lost, then ran away screaming. A Terminator got casually picked up and crushed. Another got punched through a wall by a sickly, poisoned Primarch just returned from death. Abaddon's chosen Primarch-killers never had a chance.

>>52505569
>A Chaos Sorcerer boasts to the Imperial Inquisition that his master is invincible and makes Primarchs bow to him.

Khayon doesn't lie and his reputation as the KINGBREAKER is known even to his brother Ahriman. Like he said lying serves no purpose because

A) he didn't come all this wy and gave up everything just to lie
B) it serves no purpose. Whatever he is going to reveal to the Inquisition won't save them from the Crimson Path

>The actual Black Legion supplement makes clear Abaddon either negotiates with or impresses the Primarchs. They do not treat him as an overlord, to the point of blowing him off when they feel like it.

10K years after he broke them in battle and earned the right to be Warmaster. A Warmaster has to be a diplomat as well as warlord. Wasting resources rebreaking the Primarxh on the eve of the 13th would be unwise.

>Reading comprehension is not your thing, is it?

Coming from you that's rich.

>>52505569
Anon do you really take seriously anyone who wholeheartedly believes in ADB aka the new C.S.Goto writing? Just ignore him

>>52490565
correct.

>>52505673
>Abaddon wants Guilliman dead right away, Magnus doesn't care about his wishes.

Insubordinate suburbanites? In Chaos? Woooow.

>Abaddon defeated Primarchs according to a guy locked in an Imperial dungeon explicitly reciting propaganda on his behalf, trying to demoralize the Inquisition.

That's not what Khayon is doing though.

>They attacked Guilliman, lost, then ran away screaming. A Terminator got casually picked up and crushed. Another got punched through a wall by a sickly, poisoned Primarch just returned from death. Abaddon's chosen Primarch-killers never had a chance.

Doesn't matter. They fought him courageously trading blows with him until the battle was lost. That's when they started to rout.

>>52505734
ADB writes and edits codex lore. So he is a step above CS Goto.

>>52494257
>Just goes to show how the Emperor valued conquering the galaxy over his sons.


That's literally the only reason they exist.

>>52505771
>ADB writes and edits codex
Don't lie anon, he hasn't written shit for codex and GW has actively proof him wrong at any opportunity

>>52505808
He wrote the new Index Astartes and edited the Black Legion supplement.

So get a clue or get lost.

>>52505683
>Khayon doesn't lie and his reputation as the KINGBREAKER is known even to his brother Ahriman. Like he said lying serves no purpose because

He's being tortured and assuredly executed to deliver a message. Abaddon wouldn't waste him in such a way if demoralizing the enemy wasn't important. You yourself said he fear hope and unity. With that in mind, which is more impressive:

"Yeah, we negotiated with the Primarchs they're mostly on board."

"My master beats up PRIMARCHS with one hand tied behind his back! You Imperial lapdogs are doomed! DOOMED I SAY!"

>10K years after he broke them in battle and earned the right to be Warmaster. A Warmaster has to be a diplomat as well as warlord. Wasting resources rebreaking the Primarxh on the eve of the 13th would be unwise.

He took the title of Warmaster *after* the 1st Black Crusade, and no one *within* his Legion contested his right to it. The supplement is quite explicit.

>Doesn't matter. They fought him courageously trading blows with him until the battle was lost. That's when they started to rout.

They fought the good guys and were winning. They fought the good guys + Guilliman and lost immediately. Then they tried to run away and died anyway. And these were the guys Abaddon explicitly sent to kill him.

>>52505842
>new Index Astartes
>new

Lol.

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>>52505426
>He's never been shown to exceed him
Both in fluff and on the table Angered Roth is stronger than Skarbrand. He's an Apoc only unit.
>and even if he did that would only make Primarchs more powerful since Lorgar kicked his ass.
Exactly.

In the crunch the only thirster which can top Primarchs is Ann'grath, who's a GMC that's 888pts. All others, including Skarbrand, get whooped. And this is the strongest of greater daemons, who was created by Khorne to be an extra special super weapon. And fluffwise he was beaten by Lorgar, who was one of the weakest of his brothers.

Crunchwise because of I5, 40k Bobby has a small chance of killing Ann'grath before he can even swing. And he costs more than twice Guilliman. Unless Ann'grath get's lucky stomps, it would be a pretty even match. Ann'grath more attacks, but Guilliman has better saves and gets to re-roll misses because of tactics and hatred.

Either way you cut it, crunch or fluff, GDs on the whole are much weaker than Primarchs.

>>52505749
>Doesn't matter. They fought him courageously trading blows with him until the battle was lost. That's when they started to rout.

>The were courageously getting stomped tuntil they ran away screaming.
>While Loyalist Know No Fear

Wow, sure seems like some bonnafied Primarch-killers to me,

>>52505891
>He's being tortured and assuredly executed to deliver a message.

He isn't bothered by it. His voice is calm and he is enjoying himself.

> Abaddon wouldn't waste him in such a way if demoralizing the enemy wasn't important.

Except for the fact that there was a huge chance of them just killing him. Then there is the fact that he is locked up out of sight by three inquisitors. Whatever he is going to say won't be spread to the general populace. Just these three dudes who are programmed to dismiss everything he says as lies by default. So using Khayon as a propaganda tool is a dumb idea and lying again serves no purpose.

Khayon is there as a messenger from Abaddon to the Emperor.

>He took the title of Warmaster *after* the 1st Black Crusade

Before. The 1st cemented after claiming Drach'nyen.

>They fought the good guys and were winning. They fought the good guys + Guilliman and lost immediately.

When Girlyman woke up they weren't phased. They charged toward him. It was when they got slaughtered and they couldn't damage the primarch that they started to flee since there is nothing they can do.

>And these were the guys Abaddon explicitly sent to kill him.

A sleeping Girlyman maybe. They were there to prevent his awakening.

>>52505903
>http://www.warhammerdigital.com/all-products/Index-Astartes-Volume-I.html

Clueless /v/fag.

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>>52506015
>Khayon is there as a messenger from Abaddon to the Emperor.

The Inquisitors will deliver the rambling of a heretic witch to the Emperor of Mankind. Pull the other one.

He's trying to demoralize the Inquisition.

>Before. The 1st cemented after claiming Drach'nyen.

After. Drach'nyen was the climax, and it had proved his ability to unify and lead Chaos. Thereafter he was Warmaster.

>When Girlyman woke up they weren't phased. They charged toward him.

They all froze, except one crazed Khorne Berserker. He charged Guilliman and got immediately pulped. Then they tried throwing themselves at him.

>It was when they got slaughtered and they couldn't damage the primarch that they started to flee since there is nothing they can do.

Yes, Abaddon's henchmen, the Legion that allegedly forced the daemon Primarchs into submission, couldn't do anything to a regular Primarch. Then the whole force was thoroughly defeated in a matter of hours.

>A sleeping Girlyman maybe. They were there to prevent his awakening.

So why wasn't Abaddon there in person, since he can allegedly beat up Primarchs? As opposed to, you know, convince them to follow his lead.

>>52506039

That thing is 4 years old you stupid faggot.

>>52506135
>He's trying to demoralize the Inquisition.

Both Abaddon and Khayon are smarter than that.

>After

Before. He ended the Legion Wars and proved his supremacy over the primarchs.

>They all froze, except one crazed Khorne Berserker. He charged Guilliman and got immediately pulped. Then they tried throwing themselves at him.

They were shocked for a moment but proceeded to charge the primarch hacking at him and shooting him with bolters.

>Yes, Abaddon's henchmen, the Legion that allegedly forced the daemon Primarchs into submission, couldn't do anything to a regular Primarch. Then the whole force was thoroughly defeated in a matter of hours.

It wasn't any Black Legion, you fool. It was Abaddon's original party of champions.

Lyras, Firefist, Khayon, etc.

>So why wasn't Abaddon there in person,

Other side of the galaxy. Currently directing the growth of the Eye towards Terra.

>>52506136
There is a much older version of the index. you maggot. When I said the new one I meant the newest.

So godamn dumb

>>52490552
Fucking Horus

>>52497071
Well magnus is a powerful ass psyker its not like they're using malnourished astropaths

>>52506192
>Both Abaddon and Khayon are smarter than that.

The Inquisitors are never going to wander up to the Golden Throne to give the Emperor this shit, even if the Custodes let them (hint: they won't).

>Before. He ended the Legion Wars and proved his supremacy over the primarchs.

Not according to the Black Legion supplement, which trumps any Black Library book in terms of canon.

>They were shocked for a moment but proceeded to charge the primarch hacking at him and shooting him with bolters.

And lost immediately. Then chickened out.

>It wasn't any Black Legion, you fool. It was Abaddon's original party of champions.

So Abaddon sent a marine capable of taking on a Daemon Primarch to certain death to deliver a message that will never reach the intended target. Either he's a total moron or you are.

Also Khayon by his own account got casually defeated by Fabius' clone of Horus, amnesiac and markedly inferior to the real thing. But he totally defeated the very real and daemonically-roided Magnus.

Right.

>Other side of the galaxy. Currently directing the growth of the Eye towards Terra.

Guilliman is rather a big deal. Obviously you should send the guy capable of defeating a Primarch 1v1 to defeat him. Abaddon evidently doesn't have anyone like that.

>>52506214

No shit moron the old Index Astartes is 15 years old, the "new" one you're referring to isn't even 7th fucking edition, it's 4 years old.

>>52506214
Should've said "newer" instead of "new". So fucking retarded you can't even comprehend your own lack of reading comprehension.

>>52498665
>closest to his father

i thought Sangy was the most Emperor like

>>52506318
There is two indexes. Old and new. If you can't tell between them then you are a moron.

>>52506350
>any Index Astartes
>new
>still doesn't understand the conversation

L O L
O
L

>>52506350
>2013
>new

>>52506302
>The Inquisitors are never going to wander up to the Golden Throne to give the Emperor this shit, even if the Custodes let them (hint: they won't).

Except that Khayon's plan might have been to commune with the Emperor in the same manner the Harlequins tried to do.

Khayon would have been strong enough to survive or so Abaddon could have reckoned.

>Not according to the Black Legion supplement, which trumps any Black Library book in terms of canon.

New trumps older. Since ADB was offered to write the supp but declined due to work load and decided to just edit it. I say he he has more authority over the Black Legion lore.

>And lost immediately. Then chickened out.

After a drawn out battle.

>So Abaddon sent a marine capable of taking on a Daemon Primarch to certain death to deliver a message that will never reach the intended target.

Wait until the series end before coming to judgement. Khayon clearly has a plan since he adamant that he will be taken to the Emperor.

>Also Khayon by his own account got casually defeated by Fabius' clone of Horus, amnesiac and markedly inferior to the real thing.

It was a perfect clone of Horus. Identical in everyway. So please show me where in the novel it says he was inferior. I have with me.

> But he totally defeated the very real and daemonically-roided Magnus.

Gyre commented that Khayon was increasing in power. That he is destined to be one of the greatest sorcerers. So the guy isn't in a static state.

Abaddon also got a power boost prior to the 1st Black Crusade. The second book will focus on Abaddon dealing with all this sudden power and divine pressure.

>Guilliman is rather a big deal. Obviously you should send the guy capable of defeating a Primarch 1v1 to defeat him.

It was a hasty gathered grouping of warbands that were near Ultramar. So nobody important was there.

>>52506414
>>52506388
Oldcrons.

Newcrons.

Just because Newcrons are a few years old doesn't me mean they ain't the new version of bots. You started this because you orginally thought I was referring to the older index. Admit it.

>>52496660
If Eldar were going to kill any Primarch, why not Fulgrim?

>>52490795
CURZE? He was mentally ill by inheriting the emperors judegement and being sent to the absolute worst place imaginable for someone with that trait, nostramo. I'm sure that's was no accident, thanks chaos, but you can't say he is bad or to blame. He cracked under the unimaginable pressure of being bred to be emperor judge and being forced to turn that on himself for what he had done. KONRAD HAD NO ONE.He had no one to tell him right from wrong or even someone to show him decentcey. So when he ate those people, or tortured pregnant women he only had his own conducted morals to build on. As he evolved he realized he was the evil one, imagine being bred to judge the universe.How could you live with yourself with that magnitude intellect. Konrad was a tragic primarch, but I don't think you can hold him accountable for his actions.

>>52506478
>New trumps older.

Codex > Black Library

>After a drawn out battle.

It lasted just as long as it took Guilliman to hack them apart one by one. They did nothing to him.

>It was a perfect clone of Horus. Identical in everyway. So please show me where in the novel it says he was inferior. I have with me.

It lacks his signature weapon, his memories, and all his Warp power. Horus' soul was obliterated, it was a second-rate copy of his body. It doesn't even recognize Horus' old second in command until the end.

>Gyre commented that Khayon was increasing in power. That he is destined to be one of the greatest sorcerers. So the guy isn't in a static state.

Ahriman is explicitly the greatest of the Thousand Sons and the most powerful mortal sorcerer alive. And he is weaker than Magnus, in the fluff and on the table. Ergo Khayon is no match for Magnus.

>It was a hasty gathered grouping of warbands that were near Ultramar. So nobody important was there.

Abaddon knew about Guilliman's return before Celestine and co. even entered the Webway. He had plenty of time to rustle up his forces and did so.

>>52506610
>Codex > Black Library

Source your ass?

>It lasted just as long as it took Guilliman to hack them apart one by one. They did nothing to him.

Still a drawn out battle where they stood their ground.

>It lacks his signature weapon

Wrong.

He had all his gear except the Talon. He had fucking Worldbreaker and his armor.

>his memories

He came into the room and saw the talon. You know what the clone said? "Dude, that mine". He had his memories. Stop pulling things out of your ass.

When he drew close to Abaddon he recongized him and stopped fighting.

>Horus' soul was obliterated,

The witchsight of the sorcerers present saw nothing wrong with his soul. These guys were in the presence of the real Horus.

>Ahriman is explicitly the greatest of the Thousand Sons and the most powerful mortal sorcerer alive.

Well, Khayon beat him up once.

>And he is weaker than Magnus, in the fluff and on the table. Ergo Khayon is no match for Magnus.

You don't need strength to defeat a daemon. Just a true name and a good binding spell.

Also who says Khayon did it alone. He saws WE defeated the primarchs.

>Abaddon knew about Guilliman's return before Celestine and co.

You mean as he was chasing them?

Again, only those near to Ultramar. Nobody important.

>>52506724
he says*

>>52506724
>Still a drawn out battle where they stood their ground.

It took a few minutes and they ran away.

>He came into the room and saw the talon. You know what the clone said? "Dude, that mine". He had his memories. Stop pulling things out of your ass.

He didn't recognize Ezekyle until he was about to kill him, moron.

>The witchsight of the sorcerers present saw nothing wrong with his soul. These guys were in the presence of the real Horus.

You're incredibly stupid. The Emperor's attack obliterated Horus' soul, which is why the aftershocks banished all the daemons on Terra and why the Chaos Gods couldn't bring him back as a Daemon Prince.

Horus is gone.

>Well, Khayon beat him up once.

"Muh super fanwank sorcerer can beat up Ahriman."

Top kek, Ahriman has always been the best sorcerer, from his beginnings to the Wrath of Magnus. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat-out wrong.

>You don't need strength to defeat a daemon. Just a true name and a good binding spell.

So we've gone from "Primarchs are inferior to daemons and Abaddon's bitches" to "Well maybe they used a specific vulnerability of daemons that wouldn't work on a regular Primarch" now?

>Again, only those near to Ultramar. Nobody important.

The Black Legion didn't have significant assets near Ultramar until after the Eye opened and Cadia fell. They rode on the Warp straight to Macragge.

>>52506842
>It took a few minutes and they ran away.

Prove it.

>He didn't recognize Ezekyle until he was about to kill him, moron.

Half his face was blown off. Excuse him for not recognizing him mid-battle with one eye.

>Horus is gone.

A new identical soul can be created. Fabius unlocked the secrets of the primarch project.

So what happened to real Horus soul is not relevant.

>"Muh super fanwank sorcerer can beat up Ahriman."

It's not an issue of can if he did.

>Top kek, Ahriman has always been the best sorcerer,

Yeah, and? Did I say anything different? I justy said that Khayon was among the greatest sorcerers. One of the few that Ahriman respects (and fears).

>So we've gone from "Primarchs are inferior to daemons and Abaddon's bitches" to "Well maybe they used a specific vulnerability of daemons that wouldn't work on a regular Primarch" now?

Alright, Khayon and Abaddon defeated Magnus using brute force. Happy now,

Regardless how they did it, it is still one broken primarch.

>The Black Legion didn't have significant assets near Ultramar until after the Eye opened and Cadia fell. They rode on the Warp straight to Macragge.

Apparently they do. Abaddon called in favors to gather those warbands.

>>52506944
>Prove it.

Sure.

>"Yet they were laughably outmatched in almost every regard. Swinging the Emperor's sword in wide arcs, firing off hammering volleys from the Hand of Dominion, the Primarch reaped a bloody tally as he drove the invaders back."

They couldn't even slow him down.

>So what happened to real Horus soul is not relevant

That's incredibly stupid considering it contained his Emperor-bestowed power, memories, and Chaos juice. Fabius made a clone of Horus body but was nowhere close to making the real thing. Ten millennia later he's still trying to figure out the secrets of the Primarchs, such as by stealing Sanguinius' blood.

>Yeah, and? Did I say anything different? I justy said that Khayon was among the greatest sorcerers. One of the few that Ahriman respects (and fears).

If he can't beat up Ahriman with one hand tied behind his back he's nowhere close to a match for Magnus.

>Regardless how they did it, it is still one broken primarch.

So broken he blows off Abaddon like an annoying telemarketer and doesn't care about the Warmaster's plans.

>Apparently they do. Abaddon called in favors to gather those warbands.

They're explicitly described as riding the surging tides of Warp energy to Macragge.

ITT: Chaos lorefags stuck in previous editions can't mentally adjust to Gathering Storm developments

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>>52507150
>They couldn't even slow him down.

I see no minutes there.

>That's incredibly stupid considering it contained his Emperor-bestowed power, memories, and Chaos juice. Fabius made a clone of Horus body but was nowhere close to making the real thing. Ten millennia later he's still trying to figure out the secrets of the Primarchs, such as by stealing Sanguinius' blood.

None of the Chaos sorcerers saw any different in the soul department and these guys know souls.

>Ten millennia later he's still trying to figure out the secrets of the Primarchs, such as by stealing Sanguinius' blood.

Abaddon destroyed all his specimens and notes. He had to start from zero. He eventually gave up and started the new man project.

>If he can't beat up Ahriman with one hand tied behind his back he's nowhere close to a match for Magnus.

But he did during the casting of the Rubric.

"Ahriman, STOP THIS MADNESS".

>So broken he blows off Abaddon like an annoying telemarketer and doesn't care about the Warmaster's plans.

A shifty snake is still snake no matter how many times you beat it down.

>They're explicitly described as riding the surging tides of Warp energy to Macragge.

Then those are the ones he can spare from his many host. Let me check the book.

>>52507267
Furthermore, you dumbass, again since you lack reading comprehension. It was Khayon + Abaddon's crew that broke the Primarchs. Khayon didn't do it alone. HE SAID WE!

>>52507267
>I see no minutes there.

And I see not a single one able to slow him down or do anything at all to make it a "prolonged battle".

>None of the Chaos sorcerers saw any different in the soul department and these guys know souls.

Proof?

>But he did during the casting of the Rubric.

So he tried to stop the Rubric and failed. How mighty indeed.

And the more you try to wank this guy, the stupider Abaddon looks for sending him to his pointless death on the eve of his greatest military endeavor.

>A shifty snake is still snake no matter how many times you beat it down.

That's why Abaddon knocked down Magnus' door to demand an audience rather than slinking away to talk to Ahriman instead, right?

>Then those are the ones he can spare from his many host. Let me check the book.

Plus Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion. None of whom could do jack shit against a Primarch.

>>52506513
Anon the newer version of the index astartes is just old index reskined, if you believe otherwise your retardation will hit levels not know by man

>>52506513
>Newcron retcon
>new

lol

>>52506513

If you heard someone say "Hey have you heard about those new Necrons?" would you think "You mean that years-old Newcron change?". No. You'd think something RECENT and actually NEW. Like, say, new Necron models coming out next month. Or the new Death Guard models. You don't just call shit from 3E "new" because it's "newer than the Rogue Trader version".

>>52507350
>And I see not a single one able to slow him down or do anything at all to make it a "prolonged battle".

Still no time given for how long it took. From the pages length it seems to have been a prolonged battle.

>Proof?

Khayon speech about the clone.

>So he tried to stop the Rubric and failed. How mighty indeed.

Ye but he beat Ahriman to a pulp for it.

>And the more you try to wank this guy, the stupider Abaddon looks for sending him to his pointless death on the eve of his greatest military endeavor.

He has Zaraphiston and the traitor primarchs at his beck and call.

And like Khayon said. Abaddon needs him the most at Terra. So there must be a plan in the works.

>That's why Abaddon knocked down Magnus' door to demand an audience rather than slinking away to talk to Ahriman instead, right?

No time or effort to waste bringing Magnus to heel. 10K years of planning cannot be afforded to be derailed by a spoiled brat.

And Magnus joined up anyways afterwards.

>Plus Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion. None of whom could do jack shit against a Primarch.

Just re-read it. It just whatever he can spare. His many host is fighting around Cadia still.

>>52507362
>Anon the newer version of the index astartes is just old index reskined

No, no, no. It has the new Space Marine lore for all the new units and new chapters. It's 100% 40K space marine related only with no mention of the HH lore.

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Horus and The Emperor were wrong. Horus for being a chaos-infected cunt, and The Emperor for being a lazy cunt.

>>52507492
>The Emperor for being a lazy cunt.
You take back this heresy. The emperor had flaws, like pride and stubbornness. But hell wasnt he lazy.

>>52495928
I like you, I won't call anyone blameless but its a tragedy and pointing fingers at anyone but the real bad guys {Chaos} only makes it worse, in a meta sense its kinda brilliant that people STILL debate on the matter though

>>52507577
The Emperor only reason for everything did was because his uncle killed dad for a trivial reason. He decided that humanity should be controlled. Can it get any more super villainy?

All his fellow Perpetuals hate his guts.
Alivia disdains him for creating the Space Marines
Olly Pius sees him as a faithless tyrant that he wouldn't waste a second on if he have to.
John-G knows him as a bloodthirsty bastard

And these guys knew him personally. Not like as a God Emperor but as a man/comrade/companion. They all agree that he is the biggest jerk that ever was but he beats the alternative that is THEM.

>>52507459
>Still no time given for how long it took. From the pages length it seems to have been a prolonged battle.

Guilliman was racing through them like the Roadrunner. When the last Sorcerer turned to run, Guilliman was already behind him. He moved at a speed "even the Ynnari would struggle to match".

>Khayon speech about the clone.

He never says anything about it being Horus' soul and power. Which it didn't have, seeing the original killed Sanguinius and the Emperor and new one couldn't stand up to a marine without even a daemon weapon.

>Ye but he beat Ahriman to a pulp for it.

So, after Ahriman exhausted himself casting one of the greatest spells ever this guy jumped him and punched him out. Wow so powerful.

>He has Zaraphiston and the traitor primarchs at his beck and call.

If he had the Traitor Primarchs on speed dial he'd have sent them against Creed on Cadia, or Guilliman on Macragge. Mortarion is explicitly off doing his own thing, Fulgrim is just lazing around until someone tells him Guilliman is back. Neither is working for Abaddon. Magnus attacks on his own initiative.

>And like Khayon said. Abaddon needs him the most at Terra. So there must be a plan in the works.

He's not at Terra.

>No time or effort to waste bringing Magnus to heel. 10K years of planning cannot be afforded to be derailed by a spoiled brat.

It's not like Abaddon on is a schedule or anything. He's known to murder subordinates at the drop of a hat, or even off warlords swearing allegiance simply for asking for something in return. He doesn't because he can't. Magnus can't be brought to heel.

>"Such is the nature of the Traitor Legions that no one individual could hope to rule them all."

-Black Legion Supplement

>Just re-read it. It just whatever he can spare. His many host is fighting around Cadia still.

Funny how that doesn't include his alleged daemon primarch minions.

>>52490552
Weren't we supposed to talkbout sons and wulvs? Why is some faggot derailing the thread with 40k/chaos faggotry?

>>52507681
>Guilliman was racing through them like the Roadrunner. When the last Sorcerer turned to run, Guilliman was already behind him. He moved at a speed "even the Ynnari would struggle to match".

Still it would have taken him more than minutes to fight through all of them.

>e never says anything about it being Horus' soul and power.

He repeatedly says that it's truly Horus. Again and again. The only things that he notes that were different than the original is that is clone is younger and doesn't carry the blessing of Chaos.

>So, after Ahriman exhausted himself casting one of the greatest spells ever this guy jumped him and punched him out. Wow so powerful.

It's his fault for not dodging.

>If he had the Traitor Primarchs on speed dial he'd have sent them against Creed on Cadia

The pylons needed to be destroyed first before the primrachs can manifest freely.

>Guilliman on Macragge.

Mort and Magnus are on it. But they are doing things on their own pace.

> Neither is working for Abaddon

But they are. What they are doing ultimately serves Abaddon's purposes.

>He's not at Terra.

Except the novel says that he was arrested on Terra and is being kept on Terra. The Inquisition is question on how he even got there.

>It's not like Abaddon on is a schedule or anything.

He is. The human psychic evolution is entering the critical point. It's now or never.

>>"Such is the nature of the Traitor Legions that no one individual could hope to rule them all."

Until someone got the mark of the Ascendant of Chaos. Of course, not all will serve willingly.

>Funny how that doesn't include his alleged daemon primarch minions.

You mean the three already trying to corrupt and murder Girlyman already?

>>52490795

Curze could see the future, not change it. No wonder he went batshit.

>>52498883

Return of Horus when?

Lulz.

>>52507795
>Still it would have taken him more than minutes to fight through all of them.

No, it wouldn't. He's a Primarch with the Emperor's sword, every swing is a hit and every hit is a kill. Meanwhile their weapons can't touch him while he zips around like Speedy Gonzalez.

>He repeatedly says that it's truly Horus. Again and again. The only things that he notes that were different than the original is that is clone is younger and doesn't carry the blessing of Chaos.

If it were really Horus it would have all his skills and be a Primarch-killer tier. A marine in Terminator armor is no match for a Primarch, especially without the blessings of Chaos. Clones in 40k are never up to the original.

>The pylons needed to be destroyed first before the primrachs can manifest freely.

*coughMagnusOnFenriscough*

>Mort and Magnus are on it. But they are doing things on their own pace.

Mortarion is explicitly not doing anything about Guilliman (though he'd like to) because he's busy on his own projects. Magnus attacked alone, separate from the Black Legion attack.

>But they are. What they are doing ultimately serves Abaddon's purposes.

By that logic the Tyranids are working for Abaddon since they're eating the Imperium and making a beeline for Terra. That's not how employment works.

>Except the novel says that he was arrested on Terra and is being kept on Terra. The Inquisition is question on how he even got there.

No, he wasn't. He surrendered himself to the Inquisition far from Terra.

>He is. The human psychic evolution is entering the critical point. It's now or never.

That's pure headcanon. Stupid headcanon considering more psykers makes it easier for his daemonic allies to emerge anywhere and weakens the barrier between realities.

>Until someone got the mark of the Ascendant of Chaos. Of course, not all will serve willingly.

Primarchs don't serve him, period. He negotiates with them to varying degrees of success, they aren't his servants or vassals.

>>52507795
>You mean the three already trying to corrupt and murder Girlyman already?

Mortarion does nothing, Magnus and Fulgrim do their own things without reference to Abaddon. They don't give a damn what he wants.

>>52504919

Curze's room was described in Prince of Crows. Decorated in cut up bodies hanging from hooks. He used to talk to them, and got pissed if anyone moved anything.

>>52508051
>No, it wouldn't. He's a Primarch with the Emperor's sword, every swing is a hit and every hit is a kill. Meanwhile their weapons can't touch him while he zips around like Speedy Gonzalez.

And yet Primarch battles take hours. We read the audiobooks where they fight marines, Eldar, and even normal humans. It takes them more than a few minutes in a battle.

>If it were really Horus it would have all his skills and be a Primarch-killer tier. A marine in Terminator armor is no match for a Primarch, especially without the blessings of Chaos. Clones in 40k are never up to the original.

In case you didn't notice it wasn't Abaddon alone. It was a whole warband and the clone was caught by surprise when it stopped fighting to embrace Abaddon only to haave Abaddon punch the talon through it.

>*coughMagnusOnFenriscough*

Using the energies he ha stolen from the Fenris system and the Wolf Spirit.

>Mortarion is explicitly not doing anything about Guilliman

Yet. Draigo comes first.

> Magnus attacked alone, separate from the Black Legion attack.

Doesn'r change the fact that they owe Abaddon their allegiances.

>That's not how employment works.

It is. He is giving them freedom of action.

>No, he wasn't. He surrendered himself to the Inquisition far from Terra.

Wrong. He was on Terra.

>That's pure headcanon. Stupid headcanon considering more psykers makes it easier for his daemonic allies to emerge anywhere and weakens the barrier between realities.

Read the "On the Precipice" from the main rulebook, you cunt. The human psychic evolution is entering the final phase which means two things. Either humanity asends into a golden psychic race or expolde into daemons and take reality with them. Two outcomes Abaddon doesn't want since he wants to rule the Imperium not destroy it.

>Primarchs don't serve him, period. He negotiates with them to varying degrees of success, they aren't his servants or vassals.

>>52508143

How he went from Batman the Avenger to Crawling In My Skin the Primarch is quite jarring.

>>52508267
>And yet Primarch battles take hours.

All he had to do was clear a single shrine of hopelessly outmatched mooks. There was nothing prolonged about it.

>In case you didn't notice it wasn't Abaddon alone. It was a whole warband and the clone was caught by surprise when it stopped fighting to embrace Abaddon only to haave Abaddon punch the talon through it.

The clone swung Worldbreaker at Abaddon, it didn't try to hug him.

>Doesn'r change the fact that they owe Abaddon their allegiances.

They owe him jack shit. Only the Black Legion swears allegiance to Abaddon, others are allies at most.

>It is. He is giving them freedom of action.

It's not his to give. Show me an actual example of a Primarch acknowledging him as master and going to battle on his command. It's always a negotiated alliance, such as the campaign with Perturabo against the Iron Hands.

>Wrong. He was on Terra.

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

>Read the "On the Precipice" from the main rulebook, you cunt. The human psychic evolution is entering the final phase which means two things. Either humanity asends into a golden psychic race or expolde into daemons and take reality with them. Two outcomes Abaddon doesn't want since he wants to rule the Imperium not destroy it.

His plan is literally to explode reality into daemons. What do you think happens should the eye of terror eat Terra?

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>‘Well enough, inquisitor. You come with a question?

>‘Just one. In your account so far, you remain silent on one vital aspect– you’ve not told us why you surrendered yourself into our custody. Why would a lord of the Ezekarion do that? Why did you come to Terra alone, Khayon?’

>‘The answer to that is simple. I came because I am an emissary. I bring a message from my brother Abaddon, to be carried to the Emperor, before the Master of Mankind finally dies.’

-Talon of Horus

The idiot that I am arguing with for a while has been consistent lying or showing dismal ignorance.

He dies that Khayon is on Terra. (see above). Knows nothing about humanity's psychic evolution (picture related). This is what happens when you let /v/ in.

>>52508374
>All he had to do was clear a single shrine of hopelessly outmatched mooks. There was nothing prolonged about it.

And in the audiobooks it takes them more than a while likr Girlyman's scuffle his ship in the HH.

>The clone swung Worldbreaker at Abaddon, it didn't try to hug him.

Abaddon blocked it and then Horus reborn recognized Abaddon dropping his guard and drawing close.

>They owe him jack shit. Only the Black Legion swears allegiance to Abaddon, others are allies at most.

He is the Chaos Ascendant. They are not his allies, they are his servants.

>It's not his to give. Show me an actual example of a Primarch acknowledging him as master and going to battle on his command. It's always a negotiated alliance, such as the campaign with Perturabo against the Iron Hands.

Talon of Horus.

He is their warmaster and he leads with a loose leash.

>Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Posting excerpts from the novel does, moron.

"Why did you come to Terra alone?"

>His plan is literally to explode reality into daemons.

More stupidity. His plan is to ride the Eye of Terror towards Terra and seat himself as the new Emperor.

He doesn't want to destroy the Imperium. He plans to betray the Chaos Gods and forge the Dark Imperium.

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>>52508383
denies*

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>>52508452
Ops.

Different end. Here is what should have been posted.

>>52508383
>Going to Terra
>Is arrested
>This means he's on Terra now.

>>52508536
He came to Terra alone and gve himself up. Do you have any passage in the novel that says that they relocated him? Cypher was locked up in a super prison on Terra when he was arrested. So Terra has the capacity to imprison dangerous dudes.

>>52508536
He's in the South Pole that's were the main =][= office is located it's also were Khayon is jailed

>>52508440
>And in the audiobooks it takes them more than a while likr Girlyman's scuffle his ship in the HH.

Clearing a miles-long ship is not the same thing as clearing one shrine.

>He is the Chaos Ascendant. They are not his allies, they are his servants.

No, they are not. One man cannot hope to rule the Traitor Legions.

>More stupidity. His plan is to ride the Eye of Terror towards Terra and seat himself as the new Emperor.

>"Hurr durr unleashing an endless tide of daemons on the galaxy is not the same thing as unleashing an endless tide of daemons on the galaxy."

Use some actual logic for a change. If you destroy any containment on the Warp reality is going to break down no matter what you try to do. And your text supports me - the instant Abaddon kills the Emperor the whole galaxy is flooded with daemons.

>>52508452
Tbuh Archaon is the only chaos champion worth mentioning, even before AoS fiasco he's was confirmed to be able to take down all the primarchs by one of the old big ones from GW, Abadaba had to ask favors and even then he failed

>>52508609
>No, they are not. One man cannot hope to rule the Traitor Legions.
Archaon would bitch slap every dawmon primarch into submission and force them to do his bidding, the legionaries would be forced to kneel before him

>>52508609
>Clearing a miles-long ship is not the same thing as clearing one shrine.

Still would take him more than a few minutes, His fight with a dozen alpha legion assassin took more than a few minutes.

>No, they are not. One man cannot hope to rule the Traitor Legions.

Unless he has the mark. All the traitor legions are now under Abaddon's banner.

>Use some actual logic for a change. If you destroy any containment on the Warp reality is going to break down no matter what you try to do. And your text supports me - the instant Abaddon kills the Emperor the whole galaxy is flooded with daemons.

You think Abaddon doesn't know that? He has spent the last 10K planning his master stroke to seat himself as the Emperor and screw over the Chaos Gods.

I know you like being ignorant but refer to the Weeping Girl's prochecy in which she says that the Chaos Gods will destroy Abaddon for his treachery.

Or maybe ADB's blogs where he says the Chaos Gods will never allow Abaddon to win and vice versa since if one side wins the other loses what it wants.

>>52508625
>old big ones from GW

Rob Sanders isn't that big.

>>52508717
>Still would take him more than a few minutes, His fight with a dozen alpha legion assassin took more than a few minutes.

Because they caught him surprise.

>Unless he has the mark. All the traitor legions are now under Abaddon's banner.

I'm not sure you're getting this whole "Chaos" thing. The Black Legion alone swears allegiance to him, they simply have soldiers from all gods. The other Legions do not acknowledge him as anything more than a powerful warlord. Erebus of the Word Bearers thinks it's high time they got a new Warmaster.

>You think Abaddon doesn't know that? He has spent the last 10K planning his master stroke to seat himself as the Emperor and screw over the Chaos Gods.

You think he can control what he's unleashed? That's cute. If his plan succeeds there will no Imperium left to rule.

>>52508452
Friendly reminder that Grimgor beat the shit out of Mary Archaon in a retcon'd campaign.

>>52508839
>Grimgor
Anon let's not kid ourselves Grimgor was no ordinary ork warlod, for all we know he could had used his sword as a can opener and tore the beast skins with his bare hands, heroes in fantasy were on another level

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>>52508717
>Or maybe ADB's blogs where he says the Chaos Gods will never allow Abaddon to win and vice versa since if one side wins the other loses what it wants.

>Taking a BL writer's blog as canon
>When BL had the SoS extinct as of M32

>>52508968
Really all this multiple sources for 40k gets fucking tiring, they just contradict each other at the first opportunity they have, GW, BL, FW get your shit together!!!

>>52509069
That's why you take only the sources that make for the best story and string them together.
That means ADB's wank goes out the window.

>>52498186
>there are xenos creatures native to the warp, kids
>we are on a crusade to purge xenos and reunite humanity

It isn't that fucking hard to figure out.

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>>52504919
I disagree

>>52504325
The First Murder wasn't unkillable. It literally almost dies to bolter fire and Custodes/SoS beating the shit out of it until it runs away.

It could only harm the Emperor because of its nature as a daemon almost irrevocably linked to humanity and murder, like a dark shadow or reflection. And the Emperor, as powerful and as advanced as he is, is still to some degree human enough for that to matter.

In Pokemon terms, if every other daemon is Not Very Effective against him, First Murder is actually Super Effective. But it is not unkillable, or unbeatable, by a very large margin.

>>52508839
>Shitgor
>powered up by memes
>isn't even cunning compared by Skarsnik and Waaghboss Ghazkull
>End Times has his plot armor destroyed by a bigger sue and beheaded the memeboy once and for all

LOL

>>52507662
>He decided that humanity should be controlled. Can it get any more super villainy?
You do realise that Imperium was as noblebright as it could be during Great Crusade? Yes, they were conquering the galaxy and waging wars all over the place, but it was for the survival of mankind. The only reason the Imperium was created, was to save humanity. Warhammer universe is not a trek-verse with klingons and shit, you have to be ready to fight with all you've got to survive in warhammer-verse.

>All his fellow Perpetuals hate his guts.
As if their opinions matter. Bleeding hearts don't save people, people that are willing to do what is right do.

>And these guys knew him personally.
Malcador did too, and he was a better person than all of them combined.

>>52511754

God, the Horus Heresy novels were such unmitigated trash.

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>>52511766
>turn mythical Bigger-Than-Life figures into manchildren
>chaos wankery
>OC donutsteal perpetuals
>Emperor blamed for everything because muh daddy issues
>shitty bolter porn
>even more chaos wankery
>autistic characters
>autistic bolter porn with autisctic manchildren and donutsteal characters

How can other series even compete?

>>52511828

I mean... sure, that too, I guess, but mostly because it brought all the power-level space marine (of both stripes) fanwank out of woodworks and it's never stopped since, so now the single most boring thing in the setting is the ONLY thing in the setting. I'm so glad I stopped caring a decade ago.

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>>52511472
Lets see what the fluff says. The Emperor cannot kill it. Its destruction was beyond his power. It will kill him.

And the SoS weren't killing it. They were unravelling its form with their blank powers.

>>52508968
>>When BL had the SoS extinct as of M32

I hope you die painfully for your lies. No BL did not say Sisters were extinct. In fact, it was in the Beast Series that was revealed that the Sisters are a still a thing.

>>52511754
>You do realise that Imperium was as noblebright as it could be during Great Crusade?

False. Even back then it was grimdark but with a shiner coating. Genocide, oppression, and tyranny was abundant. Abominations and atrocities were sanctioned by the Emperor to enforce his rule.

> but it was for the survival of mankind.

You mean childhood trauma.

>As if their opinions matter.

It's gonna matter because Pius holds a weapon that can kill a god and he is going to Terra. He will decide in what way he will use that weapon. He might turn it on the Emperor for all the evil he has done.

>Malcador
>better person than Alivia and Pius

No way, fag.

>>52508800
>Because they caught him surprise.

Still marines and they had him on the robes. Took him a while to fight them off.

>I'm not sure you're getting this whole "Chaos" thing. The Black Legion alone swears allegiance to him, they simply have soldiers from all gods. The other Legions do not acknowledge him as anything more than a powerful warlord. Erebus of the Word Bearers thinks it's high time they got a new Warmaster.

Nope, Abaddon united the Legions under his banner. It's not just the Black Legion.

>You think he can control what he's unleashed?

10K years of prep-time on his corner. He has a good shot.

>>52490552
The Emperor. He started this entire mess to begin with.

>>52490552
>Dust
Kek.

>>52509069
>GW, BL, FW get your shit together!
why? the variety and sheer amount of fluff is one of the setting's strongest draws

the problem is twats trying to push their view as the one and only correct one

>>52514403
Actually, that's a bug that anon took for a feature. It's caused by incompetence and miscommunication between the three parties. The new management, according to LG, is making inroads to fix that.

>>52490552
If the emperor didn't travel to that moon/planet and bargained with forces of chaos none of this shit would have happened. Obviously him being on the throne is the price he payed for whatever he gained, it's his own damned fault. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR

>>52505802
He refers to them by number when talking to the Custodes. They're only his sons in their own eyes. Sad really.

>>52512522
>childhood trauma.
Wait, what? I'm afraid there is some vital piece of new lore that I'm missing. What fucking childhood trauma?