Kreia is perhaps the grayest character in Star Wars history.

>>52475386
>MUH GREY

>>52475386
It's spelled 'grey', you fucking yank.

>>52475386
She believed that people gained strength from conflict. If she was in wh40k, she'd be the particular brand of crazies known as... Istavaanians, I think?

Obviously it was written for her to be at least semi-right. But I also think her opinion of the Force was something entirely reasonable. I'd kind of liken it to someone real-world discovering that God-capital-G exists, is totally omnipotent, and yes, totally aware that bad things happen to good people. The reason is ????Fuck you I'm God???? and/or utterly inscrutable because He is to us as we are to grains of sand.

I think in such an instance a measure of bridling and rebellion (and revulsion) might be expected, even if it might be taken utterly for granted for someone who grew up with such knowledge and was taught to just accept it as natural.

>>52475495
superlative adjective

>>52475386
>>52475507
This character sounds fucking wild

>>52475454
I thought she actually hated the force, and saw in the Exile (and in whatever Revan discovered post-KotOR) a possibility of life without the force. Why she hated the force is what I'm more fuzzy on, though looking at the games it could be that she felt that the force wills those who uses it to extremes (the overly passive and rigid Jedi and the power-lusting and destructive Sith). I think she felt the Force acts like a god who predestines those who live in it, and she hated that idea.

That's my stab at it, at least.

>>52475386
I'd fug her.

>>52476302
She saw the Force as a sort of preplanned path for everything in existence, one that allowed for great pain, and did not care that it did.

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>>52475386
Is Kreia like that 'no conspiracy for social justice' copypasta now? Just with some blank spots to put in 'grey' and 'gay' and 'stupid' and other template positions to support that premise?

I prefer the less dramatic, more philosophical interpretation I've read suggested on other threads in the past. Basically, the idea Kreia never intended to destroy the entire Galaxy or transform the Exile into some magic bomb that would destroy the Force in the blink of an eye. Instead, the idea Kreia did achieved what she wanted to do: transform the Exile into a vessel that would continue to spread her beliefs.

This is one of the reasons I love KOTOR2. Its like a classic, each time you read it you learn something new and may even realise you've completely misunderstood it for decades. Kreia, in truth, says so little about her intentions that we're left filling in all the gaps. It just becomes so easy in light of Nihilus to assume she wanted to turn the Exile into some magic doomsday device, even when she never outright stated as such. Kreia despised Nihilus and treated him as naive. Nihilus was the typical "magic bomb" solution to the question of "How do you destroy the Force?" In the course of the game Kreia did a lot to talk the Exile out of seeing Nihilus as powerful, but rather wanted her to see Nihilus as a slave to his own hunger, a failure, in effect.

In contrast, the Exile actually listened and learned. In Kreia's own world, the Exile had become her true heir and come to believe the same as she that the Force needed to be "destroyed". Why is this so? Because the Exile turned away from it. That's what Kreia wanted. If the entire Galaxy turned away from the Force the way the Exile did then Kreia's dream would be realised. By destroying the last of the old Order, the Exile set the stage to found a new Order, one not governed by the Force, but governed by the one who had stepped away from it.

That, in my eyes, was Kreia's goal. And she achieved it.

(1/2)

Now, whether or not the Exile eventually went on to continue Kreia's teachings is another story, as a lot of Kreia's faith in the Exile can be attributed to the fact Kreia was nuts. I think by the end of KOTOR2 the Exile had become the first of the New Jedi, but I don't think she believed what Kreia thought she believed. The Exile had reconnected with the Force, she was no longer hiding from it. However, since Kreia loved her because she had stepped away, I don't think Kreia ever really accepted the Exile had embraced it again, all the way until the bitter end she clung onto the hope the Exile would continue to shun the Force. We see this in the ending itself where Kreia is going "You are beautiful to me, Exile" and such despite that we, the embodiment of the character, have spent the whole game shaking our heads at the Jedi and, finally, Kreia when they all accuse us of being dark even when we're trying to be good.

Kreia is just, simply, insane. She wants everyone to be like the Exile and has made the Exile the only Jedi left standing, so the only one who can pass on the Jedi ways, "ensuring" the Jedi all become like the Exile. Massive misjudgment on Kreia's part, but that's part of the tragic element of her character in a sense, for she just never wanted to accept the "canon light side ending" truth that in the end the Exile had become the first of the new Jedi, not the first of Kreia's Jedi.

But, hey, you have to extend a crazy lady who's about to die a bit of sympathy.

What I want to see in the comics is simply a scene that justifies Kreia's obsession with Malachor. I'm willing to put it down to her obsession with knowledge the same way a librarian is obsessed with a library. But, I'd really like to see a scene where Revan pledges himself to the Sith within Trayus Core. Or even a scene where Darth Revan battles his apprentices after they discover what he has become and only Malak is left standing, jawless, and is then forced to submit to the Sith too.

2/2

>>52475386

Maybe she just liked chastizing people.

>>52475495
No.

>>52475386
I played an "Exile" type in a FFG SW game. Jedi Guardian who survived Order 66 and went into hiding, cutting himself off from the Force as much as he could.

What he realized from this time was that the Force wasn't a defining feature of him, more a tool he could draw upon to help people in need or himself to help people.

He found a text harking back to Kreia's teachings and while he was intrigued at first he became more disgusted with her contradictory rhetoric and hypocrisy, as she stated "APATHY IS DEATH" and yet walked through life taking no sides, ignoring all others and only trying to further her own goals.

He also came to discover that there is no "Light Side" or "Dark Side" of the Force in the traditional sense, as while both certainly exist, it is up to the individual who can use the Force to determine the balance within their using of it.

The Force is not aware, not sentient, it doesn't influence anyone. The individual uses the Force in the way they wish, and to blame the Force for failings, bad luck, evil, is just weakness within the person themselves.

So Kreia, while on the right track, fell to her own hubris and weakness.

>>52478357
I mean, the point was that Kreia was semi-right but still, like you said, fell to her own hubris. In a way, she's the heroic revolutionary fighting against the Force, but in another, she's wholly selfish, and doesn't like the Force for the same reason she doesn't like Bao Dur or the droids-- its something that she can't manipulate. She can control it the way any other force user can, but its an unknown variable, and even worse, something that can potentially control her.

For someone whose entire life is manipulation, betrayal, and lies, the idea of ultimately answering to an inscrutable God would be fucking terrifying.

Anyway, Kreia's great. KOTOR 2 needs to be canon again, somehow.

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I see your old lady and raise you the only currently canon gray force wielder.

BENDU!

>>52478371
That's the irony though. The Force gave no fucks about her at all. It was her own insane need for affirmation that made her fall to the Dark Side, then go into super crazy territory when she was betrayed (which if anything was the most intervention the Force had on her life - Dark Siders be Dark Siders yo, they betray and backstab like motherfuckers) and then she was desperate to find a way to "kill the Force" even though she knows full well you can't do that.

She simply could not accept that she was an entirely average person in a galaxy filled with titans, like her former apprentice, Revan. She was "just another Jedi/Sith", and her mark on the universe was less than the students she mocked.

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>>52478382
Grays also confirmed for best force power: turn into literally lightning storms.

>>52478389
>She was "just another Jedi/Sith", and her mark on the universe was less than the students she mocked.
I don't know anon. Exterminating two super secret clubs and rebuilding one of them leaves a pretty big mark in history.

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Kreia was blatantly selfishly evil and doesn't become morally ambiguous just because the writers say she is when that's not backed up by anything that actually happens in the story.
KotOR II was as bad as the prequels.

>>52478357
>He also came to discover that there is no "Light Side" or "Dark Side" of the Force in the traditional sense, as while both certainly exist, it is up to the individual who can use the Force to determine the balance within their using of it.

Too bad this is factually wrong

>>52478605
>Too bad this is factually wrong
Explained the Bendu then?

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>>52475386
>give a homeless guy 5 space dollareedoos
>"you've ruined that man's life because of unforeseen risks that you couldn't possibly be aware of that are entirely your fault even though he should've known the risks better than you. Nothing unexpectedly good can ever happen, if you don't predict it then it must be shit."
>"Also I was kicked out of both the jedi and the sith for questioning their teachings which is good, so don't ever question my teachings. Seriously, don't try to argue with me, I'm the writer's mouthpiece so every dialogue option that disagrees with me is retarded."

>>52478697
>unforeseen risks that you couldn't possibly be aware of
Right, because you would publicly hand money over to someone in the street while standing in a ghetto.

>>52478963
The homeless guy seems to think it's a good idea and he lives there. I didn't approach him.
If it's so dangerous, why didn't he know better than to beg for money? Or, at the very least, to be more subtle about it?
Hell, maybe he learned a valuable lesson from getting mugged and his life will be better for it.
I can't predict every dumbass thing that might happen to this random hobo, so I may as well just give him 5 spaceland funbux and wish him the best.

Kreia would cream her pantaloons at the thought of the Grey Paladins. Not fully, but enough since there is the whole 'people on the right path' thing.

>>52478633
Shit story writing.

>>52479126
>Shit story writing.
Times are changing old man. The force can no longer be viewed in simple black and white

>>52475386
I mean if you rewrite parts of the universe to make a character right yeah, they're gonna sound pretty wise.

By the way can we stop having a run of this thread every second month?

>>52479196
In the primary SW series, it has never been anything but.
Only the video games, to justify a dark side protagonist, and the EU material, to create dramatic fodder, have brought up this concept that people latched on to like the OT never happened.

She was a bitter old hag who got buttmad at the force because her apprentices kept beating her up with it.

>>52479196
>The force can no longer be viewed in simple black and white
It's literally that though.

>>52479233
Only because the Jedi space church is so large and insistent that they're views are correct.
Other races develop their own space traditions and don't seem to fall into the GOOD vs EVIL as easily.

>>52479204
In the OT, the dark side doesn't really have an existence beyond Palpatine and those in service to him.

If we are still using movie canon only however, Dooku, on the other hand, is a pretty good example of how you can be a "gray jedi/sith" (or "ambidextrous" force user, however you want to put it) without being corrupted or evil in the least. Indeed, he was a voice of reason when faced with the jedi, and the galaxy burned because they ignored him.

I am aware that in the EU Dooku was a lot more evil, but then again in the EU we also have much nicer dark siders as well...

>>52478605

Contrary to EU memes, there doesn't seem to be "aligned" force powers in movie canon. Luke force choked and Yoda used lightning just fine (though it may have been an absorb/discharge type effect).

>>52479286
>other races
How any of those are mammals without natural weapons or armor and a long gestation period?

>Only because the Jedi space church is so large and insistent that they're views are correct.
No.

Getting imbalanced one too many ties makes you into an insane space monster.

There's no subjectivity to it.

Look, I'm not a moral absolutist but the 'verse is.

>>52479318
Yes and no.

Force choke as a DS power is retarded, but Force Lightening is very much Sith.
(Also kind of dumb if you go beyond the scope of the movie as it does nothing of value in an extended fight against multiple people)

>>52478697
This. Fuck Kreia, and fuck the way they tried to present her as some voice of reason. She's just regular selfish and regular asshole, ie real-world evil instead of comic book evil.

>>52479292
>In the OT, the dark side doesn't really have an existence beyond Palpatine and those in service to him.
There are only five force users in the OT anyway. Space Kermit, Desert Hobo, Impressionable Farm Kid, Cyborg Dad, and The Most Powerful Man in the Galaxy.

>>52479355
So what you're saying is the light side turns you into a homeless person or homeless mutant, while the darkside gives you bitching robot parts or supreme power?

>>52479358
At the cost of not looking like a corpse.

>>52479358
>>52479368
I gotta say, I was very frustrated to find out the reason teh Emprah looked weird wasn't "the corruption of the dark side," but rather "I hit myself in the face with lightning bolts for 30 minutes straight."

>>52479358
If you're concerned with what personal gains the force 'gives you', you've already picked the dark side. And yes, that would be the correct choice for what you want anyway.

>>52479392
I am pretty sure the jedi take younglings voluntarily (both re: the parents and kids), so they probably do woo them over with what force training will get for you. You can apparently just up and leave at any time to study the dark side and they won't bother you as well.

>>52478605
Going by the films, it's right. The Force doesn't seem to have its own will, but instead to reflect the wills of those that are a part of it, great or small. The 'dark' side is just a reflection of the people that use it and influence it. Thing is, the Force DOES seem to also influence people passively. The more you indulge in extremes, the more you'll find yourself encouraged to indulge in extremes.

>>52478436
Not as of the prequels. Like all things her accomplishments were buried under the sands of time.

>>52479406
I thought they just boop boop booped the parents

>>52479392
Sure, you have fun in your dumpster. The cyborg space wizards will be elsewhere.

>>52479018
>I can't predict every dumbass thing that might happen to this random hobo, so I may as well tell him "fuck off, I don't know you".
ftfy.

>>52478697
>give homeless guy credits
Kreia gives you a vision of him getting killed.
>don't give homless guy credits
Kreia gives you a vision of him killing someone.

In either scenario, just run to the next area and look, no body, homeless guy is just standing there. Apparently Darth Treya the Sith lord of betrayal is not entirely honest in her teachings.

>>52476624
What pasta is this

I am unable to nkt be baited by SJW rhetoric and also am a sad, stunted individual who enjoys getting mad on the internet

>>52479924
There's a guy who randomly spams the same copypasta and the same picture linked to the OP, talking about how there is 'no conspiracy about social justice'. There is never, ever any relation to SJ stuff in the copypasta. He turns up every year, gets banned. It's that time of year for him.

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>>52475386
She wasnt grey you shit. Her plan was essentially a force biological weapon. She was sith, but pissed about nihilus' boys club and her former apprentice being shits so she essentially rebranded until the end when she returned to sith. In fact the only difference in her sith credo was to use reasoned and planned evil instead of some retarded space nigger acting like a force beserker, flinging themselves at the jedi looking for fights.

You are an idiot. Kill yourself. 9/11 got me to reply.

>>52479957
Kreia's teachings were grey. The early ones, not so much the 'hey, wouldn't it be funny if you annihilated the Force itself?' part.

>>52476109
She's from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2, she's your mentor and first party member. Something you learn real quick about her is she manipulates people, and has no qualms about it. Even wanting the Exile to manipulate others, but never be manipulated by another not even her.

Does the dynamic seem different between Kreia and a female Exile and a male Exile?

>>52480031
The main gender difference is that she cautions you against thinking with your dick. Repeatedly.

>>52475386

She was objectively wrong. Disney said so. Disagree, and the Disney thought police will make you disappear in the night.

I loved what kreia did, and thought she was a giant fuck you to allignment systems in games. That isn't to say her implementation as a fuck you was without flaw.

I'd love to see Obsidian get access to the mass effect IP and do a giant fuck you to the Paragon/Renegade system.

Imagine one scenario where taking the renegade, "fuck the rules" option results in tragedy that the rules are designed to prevent. And then in another story (definitely not the same scenario/quest), taking the paragon "the rules have a purpose" approach results in the bad guy getting away and causing a tragedy.

My one problem with Kreia is that when she did things like this, it was in the same instance, so there literally was no right answer. Either way you went, you were railroaded into a bad result.

>>52480039
Yeah, I think that's the only difference really. Their dialogue doesn't change except regarding Handmaiden and blindchick. Interestingly she doesn't warn a female Exile about romancing Disciple or even Atton

>>52480107
Why would she need to?

>>52480078
>I'd love to see Obsidian get access to the mass effect IP and do a giant fuck you to the Paragon/Renegade system.
Play Mass Effect Andromeda.

>The exiles are demanding access to the outpost.
1. Yes
2. Yes (sarcastic)
3. Yes (serious)
4. Tell me more.

>>52480107
IIRC she warns you a lot about Atton initially, and then after she puts him completely under her thumb she doesn't give a shit. If you romance Atton that's just one more tool she has to control you.

>>52480147
True.
Sion is the best husbando, and you should play a female exile just for the romance dialogue he has.

>>52480215
You forgot the female only option:

5. Visible Confusion

>>52480215
Obsidian saying fuck you to morality systems results in games like Alpha Protocol (that has way better facial animation than MEA; I know I'm beating a dead horse, but this game was gorgeous for a 2010 AA).
I wish we got more games like Alpha Protocol. I want to make people drink bleach to gain the friendship of the local CIA agent again.

>>52480227
Ripped for her pleasure.

>>52480265
I loved Alpha Protocol. The story, I mean, I can barely remember the gameplay. It's one of the few rpgs where I felt my choices really mattered in the end. Most of the others go for "Well if you made X choices, you get ending X, and if you made Y choices, you get ending Y", or even "Well it's always ending Z but one dialog line is different".
Too bad it went by unnoticed.

>>52479991
They were not. They were reasoned not amoral. The game insists that everything be done for a good reason instead of the call of the murderhobo.

On narshadda you get talked at for messing with the beggars. It is because of what it gets you, not why you do it. That isnt grey, its manipulative. She manipulated you into doing shit. Listen the the monologue on dantooine before the beginning of the end. Listen to her words.

The end of all things is not good, it is not grey, it is evil. It is the unwilling murder of all things. Congrats, you are evil, she was just too cool/too pissed to use the title sith until she figures out that power through that title is to be respected.

Play the game and this time listen to the dialouge.

>>52480856
That *is* grey in the SW universe.

>>52480886
Massbmurder isnt grey in any universe. Even 40keks

>>52480936
>40k mass murder
What is it? Your personal flavor of evil? /your dudes/ and their special snowflake form of evil?

>>52475386
kreia worshipers are the worst star wars fans, worse than prequel defenders, worse than those 3dcg cartoon lovers

>>52480936
No, but planning your actions is. You're supposed to just go by instinct and intuition. Thinking about it and deciding to base your actions on careful reasoning? For a forcer, that's pretty fucking grey.

>>52482168
So Darth Sidious is grey?

>>52478357
>He found a text harking back to Kreia's teachings and while he was intrigued at first he became more disgusted with her contradictory rhetoric and hypocrisy, as she stated "APATHY IS DEATH" and yet walked through life taking no sides, ignoring all others and only trying to further her own goals.
How is that hypocritical?

>>52480666
I can't beat the octogenarian guy who can take eight shotgun blasts to the chest and outpunch my melee-specked character.

I sure wish I could see more of this story.

>>52482306
He's a lot more grey than Maul.

>>52482370
Keep on truckin'. There's always a way to win and the game is worth it.

>>52482385
He's WAY more evil than Darth Maul, what are you talking about?

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>>52482168
Planningng your actions makes it premeditated. more evil

>>52479383
It never was consistent if Dark Side changes your appearance or not. Personally I prefer to do it the way that there is no physical change but many sith want power and so will experiment on their own bodies to see if they can squeeze a little more.

>>52482326
Because she was apathetic about everything except herself, so she effectively killed herself.

>>52482746
That's a very strange definition of apathy.

She cared tremendously about the PC and aggressively took action to shape him according to her desires. She was a teacher and cared greatly about philosophy and teaching. She didn't care what you *did* with her teachings, what conclusions you reached, so long as you listened and *thought* about what you were doing.

>>52475386
Gray jedi are just a gay attempt to have the best of both sides with none of the consequences, and anyone who plays one should be shot, then quickly hung before they die from the shot.

>>52482802
Made me lauhj

>>52482802
I think they're mostly an attempt to add some nuance to an otherwise boring setting.

>>52479355
I like you.

>>52479392
Well, time to perfect my badman cackle.

Moo hoo ha ha.

>>52482456
Palpatine isn't evil

>>52479991
They were not "Grey" she was seducing you to the dark side.

>>52484075
>Palpatine isn't evil
People see Star Wars as a simple good vs evil plot and so try to inject philosophy into it with this "Empire did nothing wrong" nonsense, but they entirely miss that Star Wars is about how in confronting evil we can become it ourselves.

>>52482780
No, she didn't. She was using the Exile as a tool to try and accomplish something for herself. Her entire being was focused on "killing the Force" which was an impossible task. Her saying apathy is death and then being apathetic is just one of the many, many things she did wrong.

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>>52484538
Surik: "Did you love me?"
Kreia: "I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you. I would have let the galaxy die. You are more rare than you know, and what you have taught yourself must not be allowed to die. You are not a Jedi. Not truly. And it is for that that I love you."

>>52477934
That's all I really got out of her character. A sense of smug superiority to... literally everything.

>>52484075
Palpatine is pure evil

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Vergere did it better.

> "A lightsaber is an interesting weapon. A blade unique in the history of warfare. A paradox, not unlike the Jedi who wield it: those peaceful warriors, who kill in the service of life. Have you ever noticed? The blade is round. It has no edge. But it is a lightsaber—which means it is nothing but edge. There is no part of this blade that does not cut. Curious, yes? Symbolic, one might say."

>Jacen: "Stay away from me, Vergere. I mean it."
>Vergere: "I believe you. But what matters your meaning? How will you prevent me? Will you slay? Will you maim? Cripple your friend Vergere? No? Break a bone, then—above the wrist, if you don't mind. It should heal cleanly enough to be a merely temporary inconvenience."
>Jacen: "Vergere—"
>Vergere: "Inflict pain. Twist my elbow. Pluck feathers from my crest. Otherwise, sit down and show me your ribs. Orders not backed by force are only suggestions, Jacen Solo."

>Vergere: "Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion…but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness—true greatness of any kind—requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."
>Jacen: "But—but the dark side—"
>Vergere: "If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."
>Jacen: "Me? No—no, you don't understand—the dark side is, it's, it's, don't you see it? It's the dark side. The dark side…"
>Vergere: "The only dark side you need fear, Jacen Solo, is the one in your own heart."

>>52475495
I have something you can yank

>>52485316
Was Vergere the most fedora Star Wars character?

>>52475386

Her whole point was that because the Force and destiny were bound up with one another, destroying the Force would "free" everyone from whatever destiny had in store for them.

Her whole notion about the Force and destiny is a response to Jolee Bindo's comments about the Force and destiny in KoTOR 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdR93ilzrvA

The only problem with this is that the OT shows that a person has a choice, and Vader is redeemed because he chooses not to kill his son, and not to allow the Emperor to do it. Destiny isn't written in stone, no matter how Jolee or Kreia might view it.

As for Kreia berating the Exile over their choices? It's merely to get you to pay attention to your choices, that they can affect more than is intended - but the take away shouldn't be that you should never act for fear of the consequences, because not acting is a choice too.

That, and she's a bitter old cunt.

>>52485316
>It's another "Re-writes to make my mouthpiece the wisest character in the galaxy" episode

>>52480856

Bear in mind that none of your choices for quests in KoTOR 1 or 2 are done for altruistic reasons. You do them because they grant you XP and gear rewards, which make you stronger.

It's a meta-comment on how there are no good or evil choices if your choices are both meaningless, and only serve to make you (the protagonist) stronger.

>>52485631
>>52480856
Of course, this is only a problem if you're stupid enough to define morality based on altruism.

>>52485631
>Bear in mind that none of your choices for quests in KoTOR 1 or 2 are done for altruistic reasons. You do them because they grant you XP and gear rewards, which make you stronger.
No, I did them because it makes me feel good to help NPCs

>>52485532
>The only problem with this is that the OT shows that a person has a choice, and Vader is redeemed because he chooses not to kill his son, and not to allow the Emperor to do it. Destiny isn't written in stone, no matter how Jolee or Kreia might view it.
But Anakin was destined to destroy the sith, the prequels said so.
"Fuck nice things." - George Lucas

>>52485868

I occasionally experience amnesia where the prequels are concerned.

So, yes you are correct, the PT ends up adding weight to Bindo and Kreia's view of the Force/destiny.

>>52483066
No, It's not it's an attempt to shit on Star Wars, because whiny fucking children in adult bodies cannot deal with what is perceived as objective morality, even though morality was never exactly objective in Star Wars in the first place.

>>52475386
>muh grey

>>52485631
>muh meta
>muh 4th wall

Fuck off back to TV Tropes

>>52476302
>I thought she actually hated the force, and saw in the Exile (and in whatever Revan discovered post-KotOR) a possibility of life without the force. Why she hated the force is what I'm more fuzzy on, though looking at the games it could be that she felt that the force wills those who uses it to extremes (the overly passive and rigid Jedi and the power-lusting and destructive Sith). I think she felt the Force acts like a god who predestines those who live in it, and she hated that idea.
The Force keeps causing the Jedi and the Sith to rise up against each other and drag the entire galaxy into their wars.

Because Star Wars writers are hacks who keep making the exact same conflict play out over and over again, and KotOR 2 decided to acknowledge that and make it a plot point.

>>52483066

Gray Jedi are literally an attempt to blur morality in a setting that is divided into objective morality. Its good for at least one, maybe two mindfuck stories. Then it gets boring because characters who claim to be gray will always claim to be right because they are the most contrarian, when instead a talented writer can craft characters to live and fight based on the conviction of their beliefs for good or ill.

Kreia is interesting because her obsession with being right drives her to do terrible things; and it is her acknowledgement of the nature of her terrible deeds which complicate her core nature - a figure who wants to encourage people to be the best person they can be, as opposed to simply what they should be.

But to overcomplicate Kreia into a literary critique into the morality of Star Wars is "millenial's first attempt into grayality" which is hilarious every time I see it. The weakness of Star Wars morality isn't that its simple and boring, its the failure of a story to convey the morality of war as a multi-faceted saga and touches an affected civilization at all tiers of life - instead bottlenecking conflicts into stereotypes or rock-meets-scissors-cuz-paper-doesn't-exist scenarios.

>>52486090
>The Force keeps causing the Jedi and the Sith to rise up against each other and drag the entire galaxy into their wars.
who told you that

>>52486106

The Holonet told Kylo Ren many things.

>>52485316
>Orders not backed by force are only suggestions, Jacen Solo
That's just standard Sith talk.

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Was Atton Rand right about the Jedi?

"At least the Sith are honest about what they're killing for. The Jedi are pacifists... except in times of war. They're teachers... except when it comes to telling their students the truth. And when they save you, it's only so you can suffer more."

>>52486106
That's her entire worldview.

>>52486203
Yeah, it's Kreia's worldview. You said it like it was true.

>>52486200
I love Atton but he's never even been a Jedi, what the hell does he know

>>52486181

No, it's actually correct. Authority comes from force, or the threat of force. Whether that force is physical or peer pressure or whathave you doesn't matter. There is still some amount of force being used to coerce people to behave in a desired way.

That you or I follow that behavior without being forced to is irrelevant. If we chose not to, we would become targets of that coercion.

>>52486090
>Because Star Wars writers are hacks who keep making the exact same conflict play out over and over again, and KotOR 2 decided to acknowledge that and make it a plot point.

Woah dude! We're so meta and shit; that's fucking clever! Really activates my almonds!

>>52486273

>what is TFA?

>>52486100
>Then it gets boring because characters who claim to be gray will always claim to be right because they are the most contrarian

This the general problem with relying on metatextual shit to be interesting; it's not inherently interesting and the rest of the plot cannot really take it or leave it

>>52486227
Oh. No, I meant that specifically in the context of "Kreia's reason for hating the Force".

>Jedi drones will support this decision
How can you defend this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EtByaOxiwE

>>52487686
Are you stupid?
Nobody, whether they think the Jedi are right or night, supports that decision by that particular Jedi Council, they were just as bad as kreia.

Kreia is one of the worst characters to exist in Star Wars because she doesn't make a lick of fucking sense in the context of the universe, and only got away with her bullshit because of author fiat.

Also, fuck the whole "I want to be neutral in the force" bullshit. Until episode 7, no one in Star Wars movies ever referred to 'the light side' of the force. It was 'The Force', and 'the dark side of the force'. The force was not inherently good, it was just the collective expression of life. The Dark Side of the force is not evil, it is just the ability of negative emotions to overwhelm people and get them stuck in a feedback loop of cruelty.

>>52480107
I like to think it's because she doesn't want male Exile getting involved with her daughter.

>>52487737
or not*

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>>52487748
That is were you are factually wrong. That Jedi Council were in the right as the they were following the will of the force.

>>52487815
Except in the case of the council 'the will of the force' is what was designated as such by a writer who wanted to make a point. Which is the entire problem of KOTORII, it wasn't written by someone who wanted to tell a story in Star Wars, it was written by someone who wanted to turn Star Wars into a strawman they could deconstruct.

>>52484538
I'm sorry, but what is the definition of 'apathy' that YOU'RE using?
As far as I know, she cared tremendously, and strove heroically for an impossible goal against all odds. Would you call Don Quixote 'apathetic' too?

>>52487893
Doesn't seem like much of a problem to me, familius.

"greyness" isn't exactly new in SW, people who think that the SW movies are about simple dualism of good vs evil don't get it. Maybe you could stick by that if you only look at the OT, but the PT, hamfistedly, shows us how the champions of good can cause the same sort of damage, and even enable truly bad men to do even more damage.

The Jedi never mastered their emotions, they shut them off. That is why they failed Anakin. None of them could see it until it was too late, Obi-Wan, who was like a brother to Anakin, his master and mentor who was constantly around both him and Padme didn't figure out they were fucking for YEARS.

Luke succeeded where Mace Windu failed. Mace Windu didn't get it. He was playing Sheev's game of power politics. Luke knew what love was though, he knew that through positive emotions he could accomplish far more than he could through just negating his emotions altogether just because some of the bad ones could cause harm.

Then of course TFA totally forgets that message, erases and reverses the only thing that had any value in the prequels which explained what Luke had that the old Jedi forgot.

>>52487936
TFA is going its own story route. It's pretty much guaranteed to end with a lesson about 'harmony of the dark side and the light' in the force, talking crap about the power of embracing emotions. Until TFA no star wars movie ever even said "The light side of the force".

>>52487975
TFA didn't either it just said the light, as in positive emotions?

>>52487975
TFA was a lost cause when the gave it to JJ.

>>52482802
Gray Jedi can be the most dangerous. If you have a savvy character who takes a pragmatic approach to problems and walks the line of moral ambiguity with a slight lean towards good, you essentially have the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor. Slip more to the wrathful side and you get Capaldi.

>>52487921
Imagine if someone was writing another new Star Trek movie. Now imagine this writer hated large scale governments like the Federation.

So the writer decides he's going to write a deconstruction of the Federation. Fair enough, there've been some decent stories in that direction over Star Trek history. Except instead of actually deconstructing it, he decides that all replicators are powered by powdered remains of disintegrated convicts who peacefully protested the Federation's influence over its member states.

The writer has just invented bullshit to justify why the thing he doesn't like is crap, instead of bringing up genuine ideas that exist in the setting and asking us to consider them.

And now because of one writer being an idiot and not quite understanding what he's writing, there are a shitload of people who treat it as fact in the federation that all replicated shit is powered by political-prisoner-dust.

That's why I don't like KOTOR2. It adds stupid concepts that are contrary to the actual interesting ideas in the setting, purely because one writer did a ham-fisted attempt at deconstruction that didn't work.

>>52487989
Don't get me wrong, I actually liked TFA for what it was, but it constantly had characters talk about 'Light'. The fucking fucking teaser trailer's only words were Snoke saying "There's been an awakening. Have you felt it? The dark side. And the light."

>>52488046
I think most of that blame can be shifted to the publisher/producer who pushed an impossible release date and forced them to cut over 60% of the content.

>>52488095
Having read what the cut content was? No. It didn't fix any of the problems I had with the story.

>>52488114
I'm sure you got every single bit of dialog or story that was supposed to go with it, too?

You can't just assume because they had to force a script re-write to shortcut the plot holes that the whole thing was a crapshoot.

>>52488094
Everybody who talkd about light wasn't a jedi though, gotta remember that and only Snoke, Leia and Kylo "Failed Jedi" Ren, said anything about the light, but yeah I see your point.

>>52488180
My problem isn't the plotholes, my problem is the overall concept and premise.

>>52488046
>he decides that all replicators are powered by powdered remains of disintegrated convicts who peacefully protested the Federation's influence over its member states
>"I don't like your alleged strawman, here's my strawman in response"

lol

>>52488218
It would have been better if the writer had not been a shithead, yes. But obsidan hasn't really had many gold stars have they?

>>52488046
But that isn't remotely what he did.

KOTOR 2 doesn't even say Kreia was right, and it's entirely in your remit to conclude that she was wrong, and/or crazy, and her views of the force were biased, clouded, or just bitter.

And the story remains as an excellent story with larger than life heroes, the battle between jedi and sith, and some novel takes on the pre-existing features of the setting. No political-prisoner-dust required (unless Nihilus gets hungry).

>>52488548
It was buggy as fuck but I loved Alpha Protocol. It was a place where Obsidians normal writing style worked fantastically.

>>52488647
I've had trouble with the dialogue being timed/unpausable. That shit annoys me, even if I understand why.

>>52488509
That's not a strawman, it's a comparison intended to make it a bit clearer why I dislike the story. It adds new things into Star Wars that work entirely counter to the basic premises of the story.

>>52488632
Except for the multiple occasions it does show her to be right. Like the begger who - depending on if you were a dick or not - either mugs or helps someone. And the time the Jedi Council are utter assholes just to show "Oh no, the Jedi can be bad guys too!" because what they're doing makes no sense. Or the vast number of times Kreia gets away with shit just because the plot decides she does.

>>52488684
Yeah mechanically it was pretty weak. Pistol/Stealth was the most ridiculously overpowered combo the game had, to the point doing anything else was just foolish. But it had fantastic dialogue that, for the time, was amazingly interactive and genuinely made me feel like I was a small part of a much larger setting. Little things like having to present yourself socially to the people who had influence over the areas you were operating in, who were upset with you if you did stuff before going in to talk to them.

>>52488752
>because what they're doing makes no sense.
Because they were arrogant who refuse to own up to any mistakes they made. The sheer fact they lump the jedi exiles with other fallen jedi who turn sith lords speaks volume of this.

>>52488632

You're easily entertained if you thought it was an excellent story. It was basically a straightforward romp with the side plot.of "Let's Play Who Is The Biggest Asshole."

And Kreia is right in the context of the story because you had to kill her. Whatever your character chose to become, she remains correct because you proved her right by slaying her. She won, and your deeds and memory with always resonate with the aura of her will. In time, more and more force sensitive will question the will of the force, pursuing ends unto themselves.

She is the snake in Eden, and you bit the Apple. And through you, the living shall be made to suffer.

>>52488821

Jedi by doctrine cannot be arrogant..They embrace lives of humility and isolation entirely for this reason.

>>52488884
>Jedi by doctrine cannot be arrogant
Jedi by doctrine always defend the republic yet when the mandalorians wage war where were they?

>>52488927
They recognized that there was something bigger going on and wanted to wait before they acted.

>>52488927
"We are keepers of the peace. Not soldiers."

>>52488752
>Except for the multiple occasions it does show her to be right. Like the begger who - depending on if you were a dick or not - either mugs or helps someone.
Goodness, it's not like a sith lord has ever manipulated anyone.
>And the time the Jedi Council are utter assholes just to show "Oh no, the Jedi can be bad guys too!"
Nor has that ever happened, not even in the movies themselves!

>Or the vast number of times Kreia gets away with shit just because the plot decides she does.
Name one that is implausible for a sith lord based on manipulation, deception, and betrayal to have accomplished.
>>52488862
Unlike the deep and complex movies, I'm sure. It was an excellent star wars story. It had good and evil and forceusers who stood astride the galaxy and cast shadows centuries and megaparsecs long. But all you have to do is go "nah, I don't think so" and raise your jedi order differently.

>>52489091
Well, I suppose letting yourself be shot does keep things from becoming violent.

>>52489159
>>Name one that is implausible for a sith lord based on manipulation, deception, and betrayal to have accomplished.

Faked a force bond.

A force bond is meant to be a deep, complex binding of two individuals that links their fates together. The sole reason that players are never given a chance to kick her off the ship (despite her being an absolute bitch to everyone and everything) and do things themselves is that she is force bonded to you to such an extent that if one of you die the other may die as well.

But then you can kill her yourself. And no one ever talked about force bonds becoming undone, so we have to assume the bond was not the case, and she faked it.

But the reason you believe the bond existed in the first place is when she had her hand cut off, your own hand felt like it was "dipped in lava". So she's a Sith who apparently can make someone she can't even see experience such pain they fall to the floor and nearly pass out, while dealing with the pain of having her own hand cut off, just to sell a deception.

>>52489166
As a general rule of thumb, the main instances we've seen of Jedi going to war typically end up pretty poorly for everyone else.

>>52489386
actually the bond they had was real

>>52475386
>She became a Sith, but was betrayed by that Order
Aren't they all? Isn't that how they operated?

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>>52485281
Anon, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.

>>52489435
I just did a little more reading since it's been a decade since I played the game.

Apparently the force bond is meant to be real. But then that makes no sense because there is never any indication you are even uncomfortable when killing her later, and last I checked all the Jedi Masters you talked to about it said "Fuck mate, no idea if you can break a force bond like that".

If you broke the bond, it would be nice if the game said something. Since it didn't you have to assume the bond (if it existed) still exists.

>>52489576
>If you broke the bond, it would be nice if the game said something.
The master from korriban was supposed to explained the nature of force bonds but was cut from production. Overall the bond is cut when one of them strays to far from when they align themselves. (If good it means the bond is broken when one of them falls to the dark side, If the bond you made was when you were in the darkside then it is broken when one of them falls to the lightside.)


>Since it didn't you have to assume the bond (if it existed) still exists.
During the jedi conclave meeting in the darkside it shows itself one last time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y

When kreia stabs herself

>>52489386
She doesn't fake it (though given, again, that her portfolio is deception, betrayal, and lies, if anyone in setting could, it's her)

And it's been a bit over two years since I last played it, and I played it with the restored content pack, but I think she explicitly tells you when it breaks.

>>52489424
The Jedi are pacifists... except in times of war.

>>52485281
Only from a certain point of view, my friend.

>>52485372
No.

>>52489482
Is palpatine our guy

>>52490407
Good and Evil is Objective

>>52485372
that was Obi-Wan

>>52493929
how

>>52494440

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

>>52494513
Wise as always.

>>52493847
No they are subjective

>>52480051
Lucas also hated it.

Honestly, I've spent time playing with a write-up of how KOTOR/ToTJ could fit into the current Disney mold. Instead of having Kreia be "muh Grey" she works better as a sort of Nihilist towards the force who is butthurt because she was rejected by both the Jedi and Sith. She's a great manipulator and that's about it.

But then again, I see Revan as the Jedi Order's Alcibiades than "the one who could walk both sides"

>>52495590
Everyone hated kotor 2. That's why they always butchered it when its always mention

>>52491256
Yes

>>52495590
>Lucas also hated it.

Which further means that KoTOR2 is the best piece of Star Wars media, at least aside from A New Hope and Empire

>>52482370
If you've put enough points into martial arts, equip a pistol then spam 3-punch combo followed by point-blank shot. He'll be stunned long enough to start the next combo.

Is Alpha Protocol actually good? Anyone know where a good torrent of it is?

>>52487748
>her daughter
No one is talking about one of the most subtle and brilliant little twists in the game.

>>52495808
Max points in martial arts, but I was a fool and took shotguns instead.

>>52479336
t. Someone who didn't choose both options in multiple runs, thus missing the point of that whole scenario

>>52496653
Fool

>>52488094
To be fair, Luke did mention "the light" in RotJ during his attempts to sway Vader during their duel, and in a similar context that implies "side" being appended.

>>52488884
Priests by doctrine can't have sex, with children or otherwise. They embrace lives of abstinence and self-control entirely for this reason.

>>52499128
Be quiet

>>52499128
No such thing happens

>>52487686
Listening to the masters talk, "the end of the force and the end of the jedi", it's clear who was really afraid.

The jedi of this time, were less students of the force and more dogma. During the time of the movies, Grey Jedi (Jedi who don't completely follow or believe the Jedi teachings) like Qu-Gon-Jin could operate in the order even if they got on the council's nerves. But in this time, Grey Jedi like Kreia get kicked out, she wasn't even exiled for believing differently, but because all of her students fell. These guys were so focused on placing blame, they never tried to look for a reason, to find the source of the problem and fixing it, because that meant looking in a direction, they didn't want to.

And here they do it again. The Exile was the one person who could fight Darth NIhilus, simply because she was immune by virtue of being similar. Common sense should've told them that, if they had succeeded and fought him, they would've died, easily, then the whole galaxy would've followed.

The Exile was a wound in the force that lived, she represented the idea that their entire outlook in life was wrong, she existed beyond the sphere of their knowledge and limits of their beliefs and they thus tried to destroy her, not literally, but effectively. As before it was the same, instead of trying to understand, they placed blame and thus punishment.

>dude fuck the force lmao
>uses the force all the time

hypocrisy 101

>>52479911
Kreia is just an ordinary contrarian in her teachings. She wants to play devil's advocate and fight you on what you believe to make you question everything like she does, but she gets mad when you turn that questioning on her because it means you're noticing that she's manipulating you. She doesn't like things she can't manipulate.

Honestly, her actual philosophy is about as deep as a highschooler who has just discovered nihilism, but to be fair that's probably the age people were at when they first played the game. Going back and playing that for the first time later in life tends to lead to finding Kreia to be childish and vapid.

>>52504165
desu, star wars was a childrens movie

>>52504280
Irrelevant. We're talking about KOTOR2, which is billed as being deep storytelling when it isn't.

>>52475386
You can basically narrow down her philosophy to 3 lines.

Certain levels of chaos are necessary for personal growth.
Don't pet burning dogs.
Death to determinism

Philosophies to live by IMO.

>>52504568
Shame /tg/ never understood that

>>52504568
I thought she was basically "I'm your gradeschool teacher, except the only thing I like more than making you learn is adversity. Adversity builds XP- uh, character."

>>52506363
Which she was right in the end

>>52507470
Yes. I always adore games that include in story the mechanics of gameplay.

>>52496027

Alpha Protocol is okay, if you like James Bond/Jason Bourne type spy fiction. You might not like the way dialogue is on a timer, and you should definitely play with a controller because the hacking minigame is unplayable otherwise.

>>52507540
People often say the opposite

I always thought of the difference between the dark side and light side as being whether or not one gives into their gutteral feelings. I imagine getting hit in the head by a stray baseball thrown by a child. A Jedi gives the ball back to the child, scolding him for not being careful. A Sith full force throws the ball right at the bridge of the kid's nose in anger.

But this literally empowers the Sith. I always thought that was a cool dynamic. The Jedi are responsible and wise protectors, but it's very difficult to protect against the cruel and hedonistic Sith because they are so powerful for not holding back at all.

>>52485532
>That, and she's a bitter old cunt.
um, yeah, pretty much this. Dark Jedi yo. They aren't sith, but they tend to be just as douchey.

>>52509608
Didn't one of the early E.U books states that the light side won simply because it fought as a collective whole while the dark side lost because the fought as individually whole?

>>52509663
False accusation. Not all dark jedi are like that

>>52509146
And they are right.
>muh meta
Fuck off

>>52504466

Maybe the point is that it's deeper than most Star Wars stories, and that's why it's appreciated.

>>52475386
>/our x/
Kill yourself

>>52512654
>implying he's wrong

>>52503910
>Quigon Jin was a grey
What?

>>52512851
Many jedi masters and even some on the council thought that he was a gray jefi in the way he operated and disobeyed the council

>>52509146
I literally don't understand why. Can you explain it?

>>52509608
I always got the impression that the dark side required less XP to level, but the light side had a higher level cap.

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>>52513943

>>52512045
Some are worse.

>>52513414
Palpatine beating Yoda (at best an arguable tie) kind of defeats that idea.

>>52514035
>Palpatine
Palpatine is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to Sith.

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>>52475386
>Kreia

TODAY I WILL REMIND THEM

G
B
2
/
t
v
/

>>52517275
What

>>52503910
>Quigon Jin was a grey

Is Grey just Chaotic Good?
I mean Quigon did go against the establishment and jedi order. but he was doing it for good intentions. But then again his direct actions would be the swinging key that toppled the Jedi order with teaching / admitting Anny in the force. Should have left that fucking runt in the desert

>>52518485
Grey is a term that describes a character with more than 10 Wis and or Int

>>52504112
She admits it her itserself

>>52515398
Made me chuckle

It's honestly such a shame we couldn't fug her. You just know she would have been a total hottie in her youth. Probably would have attached herself to anyone showing her the slightest bit of kindness after being backstabbed so often.

>>52521585
She had a husbando, anon. Sure, they weren't married, but that's beside the point.

>>52512851
There's a bit of a confusing issue with the EU's "gray" stuff, as there's actually two different versions.

There's /tg/'s nightmares - the "we use the dark and light side equally because we're speshul and can't fall" type, and the "uses only the 'light' side, never the dark, but disagrees with the Jedi Council on how things should be done. That's the type that Qui-Gon Jinn and Jolee Bindo are.

>>52523035
What's kreia position

>>52524018
Neither of those.

She's pretty much pure dark side, and will openly admit to having been Sith if you ask her.

>>52524018

Destiny, and by extension, the Force, have brought the galaxy nothing but cycles of misery as various Force cults try to control the galaxy. If the Force were to destroyed, there would be no fate or destiny, and the cycles of Force cults would end. And maybe people would be free to make their own choices.

Or everything would die, and that's a small price to pay for not having your destiny dominated by the Force ("light" or Dark).

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>>52475386

>>52524109
My god

>>52512851
He a dark jedi

>>52524109
>>52525136

Kreia would turn people much more easily if she used Sith powers to change her appearance to her young perky pornstar self.

>>52487997
But Capaldi's Doctor is miles more Light Side than Ten or Eleven.

>>52514035

Yoda could have won that fight without extenuating circumstances.

He really only had one shot during the Coup, and that's why Palpatine spends the whole fight forcing distance, Yoda's on a timer, and Palpatine has reinforcements coming.

With his characteristic wisdom, instead of charging back and getting killed, Yoda fucks off into the galaxy.

>>52524018

She's a Sith that disagrees with Sith doctrine.

The whole conflict in KOTOR 2 can boil down to "Fuck your immature Sith bullshit, keep being evil over here, I'm gonna go win for once you cock mongling edgelords."

>>52527971
>The whole conflict in KOTOR 2 can boil down to "Fuck your immature Sith bullshit, keep being evil over here, I'm gonna go win for once you cock mongling edgelords."
The funny thing is, Is that she won

>>52528161

We can argue a bunch about the philosophy of Kreia; But she leaves the world either satisfied or vindicated.

>>52528413

As long as she leaves the world, she can feel whatever she wants.

>>52528413
Which ending is which?

>>52529710
Lightside. She leaves both Satisfied and her teachings are vindicated

>>52513402
Something about being self-referential

>>52531395
Idiotic

>>52531395
Doesn't seem very convincing? Or at least, I still don't understand it.
It feels more like good writing and actually acknowledging the conditions and rules of the setting they lay down in the game.

Mass Effect was another one I was mildly pleased with, back in the ones I played at least, because they acknowledged the fact that- being an action-RPG protag- you killed like a billion dudes and were just incredibly badass, rather than just watching you kill 100+ people every mission and move you from mission 1 to mission 2 without comment.

>>52524018
I think she's a doggystyle gurl

>>52533838
Lewd

>>52480215
According to a friend of mine over half the conversation choices he made wound up flirting with people.

>>52475507
Legit point. I like you anon. you can stay.

>>52509608
Palpatine, Dooku and other smarter sith fly in the face of such vision of Dark Side. Why they clearly were using their own emotions to powerup during fights they also overall used them less often than Maul or other brutish type sith. Instead they had some big goal in mind that they were pursuing at the time.

Palpatine especially. He was hiding under the nose of the whole Jedi Order constantly keeping himself in check not only emotionally but also with the use of the Force. That arguably needs more self control than even jedi way.

She was a dried up old cunt who just wanted to be loved and appreciated.

>>52538398
*vindicated

>>52538659
Same thing.

>>52477643
>Nihilus was the typical "magic bomb" solution to the question of "How do you destroy the Force?"
Nihilus would have also destroyed all potential for life, which was not her goal.

>Kreia is gray

This fucking meme needs to die. Lets look at Kreia's motive shall we?

"They say *the Force* empowers me, but I believe *the Force* betrays and shackles me, thus my best option is to destroy *the Force* before *the Force* destroys me to earn true freedom"

Now take that statement and replace every instance of *the Force* with *my master*, sound fucking familiar? Its Sith philosophy 101. The only thing that separates Darth Traya from every dime a dozen Dark Lord is that she takes the mindset they applied to their teachers and students and applies it to the goddamn Force itself. That doesn't speak to her cleverness or her grayness, just her ego. Another characteristically Sith trait

>>52479018
>Hell, maybe he learned a valuable lesson from getting mugged and his life will be better for it.
that's her point tho, only he didn't learn from it because he died

>>52480265
this guy gets it.

Oh, an SW thread.

I wanted to ask this. What is a Force user that thinks that the Force must be subdued, bent, broken and controlled by the might of one's will, as opposed to "becoming one", " resonating", "carefully wielding", "appeasing" and such?

This is clearly some sort of "dark" side, but what exactly? Are there any examples in the lore?

>>52482306
Sidious was still following his ambition Senpai

>>52485532
Fucking Principle Lewis was a Jedi!

>>52486268
Authority can also come from respect or belief of ones ability.

>>52539755
Truly a
Great man

>>52541486
And very athletic.

>>52478371

Star Wars Rebels went to Malachor last series, finding a scourged world and a sith temple (and a Holocron with a female voice at the center of it). So even if the whole is gone, I think some parts may leak through.

>>52541928
And wise

>>52485868
But Anakin didn't destroy the Sith. That's the whole point. The Jedi were so goddamn convinced that their stupid prophecy would come true regardless of what they did because "lol the foce says so" that it directly led to their downfall. Just like Palpatine was undone by his arrogant belief that everything that he had seen would come to pass. It rhymes, like poetry

>>52545110
Yes, he did.

The prophecy was fulfilled at Endor, when he cast off the persona of Darth Vader and threw Palpatine into the pit.

>>52545350
>Killing one dude and then dying destroys an entire philosophy

Besides, the prophecy wasn't that he would destroy all Sith, the prophecy was that he would bring balance to the force. There's an important distinction there, but the Jedi just assumed that it meant he would destroy the Sith, because the Jedi were idiots and interpreted it to mean what they wanted it to. Vader just did what the Sith always do, albeit for a different reason thanks to his son.

>>52545591
>but the Jedi just assumed that it meant he would destroy the Sith
That's because it does

>>52545591
The act of the destruction of the Sith is in and of itself what brings balance to the Force.

The whole reason people didn't believe in the prophecy in the first place was because they assumed that the Sith were long gone.

But again, it's straight from George that he fulfilled the prophecy at Endor. And before you cry "not canon", JJ, Kathleen Kennedy, and Pablo all repeated that that's the fulfillment of the prophecy as well in the run up to TFA's release.

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>>52475386
Kreia was literally trying to get the Exile to fall (ostensibly again) to the Dark Side.

This isn't a matter of debate, the writer LITERALLY SAID THIS IS THE CASE.

She was just a lot more clever about it than most Sith.

>>52545691
Then why is she so proud of her when she remains a Jedi than when she falls to the darkside?

>>52545691
>LITERALLY SAID THIS IS THE CASE.
sauce

>>52545747
Because she gets off to betrayal..

>>52547105
Kreia was trying to create a new, stronger order of Jedi. This was WHY she was training the Exile in the first place. Parading the Exile in front of the remaining Jedi Masters was meant to be her moral victory over them; "I was right and you were wrong." She only killed them when it became increasingly clear what they were going to do with the exile

>>52545591
>Besides, the prophecy wasn't that he would destroy all Sith, the prophecy was that he would bring balance to the force.
Defeating the Dark Side brings balance to the Force. It's not like a "balance between good and evil" thing where the natural state is a balance of power between Light and Dark. The Force in its natural state is a balanced equilibrium with all life in the universe united in harmony. The Dark Side itself is the imbalance; it consumes, warps, and destroys those around it for the sake of its own power and growth, and the Sith follow this as a philosophy.

In other words, the Force (or the Light Side, if you want to invoke that term) is like a balanced ecosystem, and the Dark Side is like an invasive species that consumes everything in its path. Stopping it is what "bringing balance to the Force" means.

>>52547219
lies

>>52545591
>the prophecy wasn't that he would destroy all Sith, the prophecy was that he would bring balance to the force. There's an important distinction there
Canon is that the Jedi were right. The dark side is the imbalance.

>>52545643
The only really weird part about this is that Lucasfilms claims that The Clone Wars animated series is still canon and in it there's an episode where Anakin and Obi-Wan runs into personifications of the Force. There they also say that Anakin's destiny in bringing balance to the Force means to replace the current personification of balance in the Force. It was one of the worst things I think I've ever seen, and for some reason it's still considered canon.

>>52549257
Explain? Is it because the whole lightside personification?

>>52549305
Explain why it was terrible? Several reasons.
>The Force being personified by people rather than only being something intangible
>Balance in the Force being represented as a middle-ground between light and dark
>There being a "light side" of the Force when that should just be the Force
>Anakin's destiny suddenly being rewritten to be the babysitter of the Force rather than erasicating the Sith
>Them trying to save their asses by having the characters forget all about what happened as soon as they left the planet
And so on.

>>52539434
With such broad terms we can apply it to most philosophies, even the Jedi order.
>"They say *the Dark Side* empowers me, but I believe *the Dark Side* betrays and shackles me, thus my best option is to destroy *the Dark Side* before *the Dark Side* destroys me to earn true freedom"
"I don't like X, therefore it must disappear" isn't exactly a rare mindset.

>>52549654
>we can apply that to the Jedi Order too
>t. Papa Sheev
The Jedi "must destroy" quest applied to the Sith, not the Dark Side.
There's no sense in aiming to destroy what exists to some degree inside of every living thing (extreme emotion + selfish desires). Far more useful to go after those who cultivate and exploit it to the detriment of all.

>>52549876
>Far more useful to go after those who cultivate and exploit it to the detriment of all.
Direct action is not always the best way. It is a far greater victory to make another see through your eyes than to close theirs forever

>>52549876
Are you implying palpatine is wrong?

>>52549257
Those were stated to not be real beings by Dave Filoni in the commentary for the first episode of the arc. He directly compares them to the Darth Vader that Luke fought in the cave under the tree on Dagobah.

Luke had an encounter there, but he didn't actually fight Darth Vader there.

Likewise, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka have an encounter on Mortis, but they didn't actually encounter three godlike personifications of the Force.

>>52485316

And yet Jacen became the BBEG under his tutelage.

Wew such gray. All "gray" characters are either a variation on light or dark, never their own thing.

>>52515398

Oh I needed this.
Thanks anon, my day has turned to the better.

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>>52551137
Perhaps Jacen never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Jacen understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Jacen had not gone to war