>Orcs >Suposedly super strong >Supposedly numerous >Supposedly

Narrative/Thematic reasons.

>>52409993
sub 89 IQ

>>52409993
Logistics.

>>52410010
Oh come on, everything happens because of narrative and thematic reasons, we are talking about fictional worlds here. It's always the writers fault.

>>52409993
>Supposedly
>Supposedly
>Supposedly

combine a lot of assumptions with the fact that orcs have next to no infrastructure, no advanced metalworking, combat training or grasp of tactics beyond the zerg rush. All they can do is hit harder then a dirt farmer and breed

>>52409993

Someone has to be the jobber for the fantasy world.

They actually do great at raiding lightly guarded settlements.

>stronger
>more numerous
>warrior culture
>still lost
Yep sounds analogous to the Aztecs to me

Because they are usually less technologically/magically advanced then the other races.

>>52409993
I2

I'll see myself out

>>52409993
Same reason barbarians generally lost to organised states. Logistics, strategy, and a sense of tactics that contains more then raiding party and headlong rush.

>>52409993
>>Suposedly super strong
>>Supposedly numerous
>>Supposedly great warrior-culture

None of these except warrior culture is actually a constant, though. LotR orcs were overshadowed by Uruk-Hai, for example.

>>52409993
Just look at africa. it's a wartorn continent you could saw that sub saharan africans are a warrior culture but that doesn't mean they are ever going to conquer and rule anything.

>>52409993
>>Suposedly super strong
Nope.

>Supposedly numerous
Yea, and that's also the only thing they have going for them.

>Supposedly great warrior-culture
Nope. They're cowardly and backstabbing, only finding the courage to fight against a bigger foe when they have the advantage of numbers or are being forced to do so by a bigger orc.

>Why do all orcs suck so much?
The question should rather be, why do fantasy authors suck so much?

>nobody even knows what setting is being discussed and is just shitting on their keyboards and clicking "post"

>>52410417
You get screamed at if you answer with "depends on the setting", even if its appropriate.

>>52409993
because they are bigger and more numerous, so it's gonna take more to feed them all. logistics will fuck them over.
also, they aren't very smart and humans got better technology, better quality weapons/armor.

>>52409993
Lack charisma and comunication skills.
Lack inteligence.

Also Tolkein Orcs were just goblins created from undead elves.
Need to return that flavour.

File: хованский.jpg (146KB, 1280x853px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 1280x853px

>>52409993
One of three:
>orks invade elves
>elves ask humans for help
>orks btfo

or

>orks invade dorfs
>dorfs ask humans for help
>orks btfo

or

>orks invade humans
>orks btfo

They are unlucky to exist alongside humans, and are dumb enough to pick a fight with either them or their allies.

>>52409993
If you're talking about D&D, ultimately it's because Gruumsh is a buffoon who only knows how to destroy. Their strength is not that great and their numbers are not that large. Every orc uprising has been quelled.

>>52410183
I agree with the above anon.

Individual one on one battles might be won by the thoughest motherfucker around.

Wars are won by the people with the best logistics, technology and strategy. No matter how much of a badass motherfucker you are, it doesn't mean shit if you don't have enough food to eat or the know how to make or maintain your weapons.

On a side note, that is why 40k orks are successful compared to other orc equivalent. They have LOGISTICS trough the Orkoid ecosystem which terraforms the land to provide Orks with food. They have TECHNOLOGY coded on a genetic level and they have STRATEGY... ok maybe not this one.

You only hear about their losses rather than their victories, and that any massive horde will fall apart due to infighting and be fractured into clans again.

An orcish Horde that complelely razes the north of a continent but eventually falls due to infighting still completely destroyed a massive section of a continent.

Also, you don't hear about them winning because there are little to no survivors to tell the tales. When people survive an orc attack and beat them back, that's when you hear about it.

>>52410183
>barbarians generally lost to organised states

Laughing_Sea_Peoples.WebP

>>52409993
In which setting?
In LotR they aren't super-strong, have no great-warrior culture, are actually UNIVERSALLY shorter then humans, and only have numbers as their advantage.

>>52409993

because strong and numerous rarely defeats discipline and tactics

>>52409993
>>Lose to everyone all the time
but they don't

>>52410748
>HFY+slav
nuclear mix
>calling orcs "orks" outside of Warhammer
Come fucking on

>>52411127
Because they are goblins.

>>52409993
Numbers and warrior code vs technology. Orcs almost never use guns, and almost always fight someone with guns.

>>52411172
An orc IS a goblin in LotR.
See? Depends on the fucking setting.
So which setting is OP talking about? D&D? If it's even just D&D I can help answer his question, but he needs to narrow that goddamn shit down.

It's not hard. He just needs to type in like four extra words in the post for fuck's sake.

>>52411202
>An orc IS a goblin in LotR
And this is why bringing up a LotR goblin in an orc thread is kinda silly.

Orcs were written as German analogues, and much like the krauts no matter how they talk about their military history they tend to lose wars because they overreach and declare war on everyone around them until they get beat up again.

>>52411221
So which kind of orcs are they then?

>>52411170
>calling orcs "orks" outside of Warhammer
There is a difference? It's like arguing about deamons/daemon/demon or elf/elve. It literally doesn't matter, nor should you care about it.

>>52411170
They're called orks in shadowrun too.

>>52410168
Beat me to it.

>>52409993
They get ganged up on by the more civilized races. That's just what happens when you're a dirty no good orc.

>>52409993
>Lord of the Rings
These orcs are more like goblins ("orc" in fact being the Westron word for goblin) and they were shorter then human beings, still decently strong, but not super human by any means. Even the Uruk-hai were described as being "almost of man height", so the biggest ones were still pretty short.
>D&D 1e-2e/AD&D
Orcs are actually still closer to to the LotR version; short, bandy-legged, antagonistic bullies. They were also LE in alignment back then. Not super-strong (mildly above average strength). No great warrior culture.
>D&D 3e-4e-5e
Taking notes from WarCraft's popularity, orcs get stronger and tougher then humans and are now taller, though still hunched over. On average stronger then the average human, but not actually super human, and not any better fighters. They also loose the organization and infrastructure of the older orcs, so now they walk around using inferior weapons and armor or even no armor at all while not really gaining anything in return. Warrior-culture is there, but it's really closer to "raiding culture", and they don't actually organize or train very well. Intelligence also drops pretty hard from previous versions too.
>WarCraft
Stronger then humans and have a warrior culture, but everything in WarCraft is the equivalent of wrestling kayfabe; it literally stops mattering the instant the words stop getting uttered and the abilities of the characters instead match the needs of the plot.
That said, orcs are more dangerous here then in other settings considering they fought several major wars with the other races combined and did a good job each time. They loose to keep the setting going.
>Warhammer
These orcs are stronger (but a strong human can still match them), tougher (but a tough human can still match them), but holy SHIT are these guys dumb, even worse then the later D&D orcs. They're also terrible at organizing and prone infighting even worse then other examples, sometimes literally in the middle of battle.

File: sviggitius swootius, I'm coming for that booticus.jpg (381KB, 2048x1365px) Image search: [Google]

381KB, 2048x1365px

>>52409993
>celts
>supposedly super strong
>supposedly numerous
>supposedly great warrior-culture

>Loses to everyone all the time

Feels good being Roman, i guess!

>>52411393
>Warrior-culture is there, but it's really closer to "raiding culture", and they don't actually organize or train very well.

What's even the difference?

>>52410039
You are asking why a race that has all the traits necessary to be a impressive army keeps losing and have it's shit pushed in.

Defeating a small army formed by mild mannered civilians begrudgingly drafted into service, meek of physique and coward is not a great feat for a hero. Defeating a large army formed by raging, hulking monsters bred for war and violence is a great feat.

Is not that they have this traits and yet they lose. Is that they were conceived to lose and then given this traits.

Now if you want a IN universe reason, they will depends on the setting and circumstances because there's no unified explanation to why orcs lose.

>>52410034
>>52410022
this two have very good points that can be sum to lack of organization and strategic mind. In LOTR, this is the case and without a master to whip them or control them with dark magic mind control, orcs can't even organize in large numbers, they will fight and segregate in small tribes, or just scatter.

>>52410044
Further drive the aforementioned point home.

Often orcs are defeated by cunning or mcguffin. Seldomly by raw strength and numbers. Strategy, and being skilled rather than brute, play a role in both macro (defeating an orc army) and micro (normal human defeating a single orc) scales.

>>52411393
>>Warhammer
>These orcs are stronger (but a strong human can still match them), tougher (but a tough human can still match them)
why are orc models so huge and swole then?

>>52411413
desu Rome had the best warrior culture.

>>52411117
Lol, people still believe viking could do anything but prey on weak monasteries and surprise attack dying kingdoms then fleeing.

>>52411483
you see my point though?
Discipline and organization gets you longer than being big and mean.

They mostly lack the mental capacity for tactics, strategy and logistics.

>>52411293
there is. Daemon is a greek word that originated the later word Demon, though they mean different things.

Ork is exclusively used by warhammer 40k.

>>52411442
There's significant differences.
The difference between a raiding culture and a warrior culture are contrasting between the...let's go with the Nordic forefather cultures (Danes, Jutes, Geats) and the Romans.
>Norse
They have warriors, but didn't have any better military organization then anyone else. Mostly they traveled a lot, which sometimes led to trading and sometimes lee to raiding. Their warriors aren't trained or drilled, they just recieve individual instruction of varying quality. The Danish kings have bigger and more expansionistic armies, but not any more so then any other nation at the time, nor are their armies better equipped or trained.
>Romans
You can't advance in citizenship, social status, or politics without joining the military first. The military is equipped with standardized equipment whenever possible and goes through a fairly standardized training regimen that still remains flexible and incorporates new tactics that they find useful. Every leader is a former soldier, as is every full citizen. Landownership is granted by military service.

Rome is a warrior culture.
The Nordic forefathers are a culture with warriors in it.

File: 1482218043733.jpg (95KB, 720x520px) Image search: [Google]

95KB, 720x520px

>>52411488
sea-people.
From the bronze age collapse.
Though one theory is that it was a soldier revolt of so called "runners". a class of lower class warriors that specialized in killing chariot crews after the chariot had been disabled by another chariot.

>>52409993
>>52410056

How would a game represent a race of jobbers? Like what sort of abilities would they have? that makes their jobbing useful for a team or group?

>>52410080
>Favored Enemy: Protagonist's Parents

>>52411481
Aesthetic reasons.
Go look at actual stats if you don't believe me; even in the RPG orcs weren't impossibly strong, and humans were of comparable strength or greater depending on the unit in question.

Or did you never actually PLAY either of these games and instead just looked at the pretty pictures?

>>52411564
>Or did you never actually PLAY either of these games and instead just looked at the pretty pictures?
Of course I only looked at the pictures!
Who the fuck can spend 200£ on miniatures, more on paint and brushes AND have the patience to paint it all AND find someone to play with when you are 14!?

Real adults have no interest in age of sigmar.

>>52411591
Fair enough, but next time when you aren't aware of the actual fluff or rules behind something perhaps not make assumptions about it until you have better information.

This is actually a good general policy for life in many other respects too.

>>52411611
Yeah, why would I assume that Huge McBeefy is stronger than Joe Blow?
INSANITY!

File: 3643443621f988979dedc8af14202330.jpg (95KB, 513x720px) Image search: [Google]

95KB, 513x720px

>>52411488
Not Vikings, Sea Peoples.
Y'know, the shirtless barbarians who ended 7 of the 8 great Bronze Age civilizations in a mere 50 years and crippled the Egyptians beyond recovery.

>>52411630
Later on average orcs were stronger then the average human unit, but not super humanly so. Another reason it's not really that helpful is that they're bigger but also tend to think raw hides and fur make for good protection against swords, crossbows, and guns.
Being bigger but not COVERING your bigger bits while still remaining vulnerable to stabbing means all you're really doing is hitting harder while making yourself a bigger target, and that was kind of the downfall of a lot of cultures that fought more organized warrior societies.

And since "strategy" isn't even pronounceable by most Warhammer Orcs, size is literally their only advantage and everything else they have puts them in the back foot pretty hard.

>>52410136
I always thought that they were related to africans, not injuns.

I want to have orcs with warrior culture more similar to that of Bushido code.
But I don't know how to implelent it correct.
Do they also more proficient in arts just as samurai were?

>>52409993
Because they are based on Germany in both of the World Wars.

>>52411564
Dwarfs match Orc strength in canon.

Orcs at their highest swoll limit are ridiculously strong though. They just have to live long enough and keep fighting to reach it.

>>52412377
Samurai were artists because society dictated it.

Religion and war mix for most cultures. The Shinto faith dictated a reverence for the magnitude of how every single thing is basically a Fey being and you being a cog in that gigantic ethereal mechanism that can become the mechanism itself by being open to life as a whole and maintaining dignity. As a result dying with glory is as important as success in life as is important as mastering all the facets of peaceful life.

That and in a culture where warriors are top dog and you want to maintain peace for at least one generation, you need non-violent competition combined with a pride in pursuits that are solitary just to keep shit functional.

Orcs already have a belief in spirits. They just need hobbies. American Indians on the coast would take blankets their wives weave and sew designs, buttons, and objects into them to tell stories that could be used both as a blanket and as a tapestry decoration, that'd be a good one. So would self-tattooing, and love of music.

>>52409993
Using common "tribal orc" version:
>Strategy
>Tactics
>Logistics
>Industrial complex
Most fantasy settings are high medieval, so during/after first "industrial revolution", meaning that other guys can throw a lot of advanced good steel equipment at tribal orcs.

Orcs may field great light infantry, that can mostly only fight as unorganized swarm/horde, and they will be facing charge of armoured knights in terrain favoured by knights.
On top of that "good" kingdom is more efficient than orcs so they could use proportionally more of its population in a war, and superior logistic means that humans/dwarves/elfs could potentially bring more forces to one battlefield than orcs despite overall lower number of troops.
As lack of adequate supplies my be one of most important limiters on orcish army size.
Warrior culture is detrimental to war fighting as death of commander creates power struggle and possible disintegration of troop under his command.
If we factor magic orcs may have some kind of shit tier shamanism while humans and elfs will throw arcane magic at them

Personal strength is just irrelevant in mass combat, adherence to orders, team work and discipline is what wins the day, not individual action.

Turmoil from within main reason for it in my campaign setting, they're dangerous if someone can manage to unite them as one but that's not an easy task.

>>52411591
The rpgs are literally free. Some are even good.

>>52410168
>Implying this stops them from chopping through most squads anyway

>>52411564
When you say Orcs have strength comparable to humans are you talking about regular old humans or space marines, or are you not talking about 40k?

File: consider the following.jpg (29KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 600x600px

>>52409993
>Why do all orcs suck so much?

Their culture is tribal based, and they rarely are able to have settlements larger than a large village. Additionally, their concept of warfare is mostly based around individual feats of heroism, they cooperate poorly and rarely use formations - and don't even ask about things like logistics and organization. Finally, loyalty is personal rather than national, so when a great orc king dies, all the tribes and their smaller kings fall out immediately.


Basically they're the Germanic tribes before they got their shit together.

>>52412445
This is true, but that's only the strongest orcs; most regular orcs do not.
>>52412992
I would have typed "orks" then, not "orcs". There IS a difference between them, though GW has been trying as hard as they can to turn Fantasy into 40k for nearly a decade and half now.
Generally I don't talk much about 40k; no point when the half of the board does it without my help and has said everything that could possibly be said in addition to saying shit that certainly DOESN'T need saying.

>>52411393
this post was actually helpful to me

File: 1490577301437.jpg (216KB, 728x1025px) Image search: [Google]

216KB, 728x1025px

Post different kinds of orcs

>>52413124
It's not that helpful, honestly.
There's nothing I typed out that couldn't be found out with a few minutes of Googling and reading, so I can't really take credit for any of it.

>>52409993
Didn't they rekt the spanish marines crimson fists?

>>52413154
these two renditions have singlehandedly made me not want to read whatever story this person has put together.

>>52412992
Orks in rogue trader they have unnatural strength/toughness 2x (and some other advantages, but those are the big uns relative to this discussion). Both of these things are possible to get as a "normal human". You just need money or just you know, the balls to turn your gellar field off for extended periods of time. Things rogue traders have in abundance.

>>52413309
That'd be a terrible shame, seeing how it's from the best /tg/ related Manga running

>>52413361
the material being a comic book only makes my decision easier. I will not suffer such visual atrocities in a primarily image based form of entertainment. God only knows how bad the actual writing is.

>>52413361
>the best /tg/ related Manga

Couldn't agree more. Anyone who hesitates in checking it out is doing themselves a disservice.

>>52413361
>>52413550
do your farts echo too or is it just your bullshit

File: 1464871623217.gif (3MB, 350x263px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 350x263px

>>52410417
>he can't discuss fantasy memes, only settings

what are you? stupid?

>>52410909
>Every orc uprising has been quelled
>Current setting, the Forgotten Realms: Kingdom of many arrows

Every D&D setting has some example of an Orcish land that they conquered and claimed for themselves.

>>52410136
The Aztecs also lost because they were an evil empire and all of the other natives rallied behind the Spanish to fight against the Aztecs because "Well these conquistador guys seem a bit iffy, but nothing could be as bad as the Aztecs"

>>52413622
>something is popular on tg
>it must be because it's bad
kek

You keep enjoying your obscure hipster trash kiddo ;^)

File: 1465258761085.jpg (61KB, 530x600px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 530x600px

>>52413954
>"but nothing could be as bad as the Aztecs"

>>52413954
I wanna say shit like "well, the weren't evil PER SAY", but honestly the Aztecs were pretty unpleasant guys.
Their obsession with human sacrifice is kind of alarming, though apparently by the time the Spanish arrived they had been in decline for some time.

>>52413622
>>52413309
You really are a moron if you're gonna miss out on it just because you don't like the kobold/orc design.

>>52413997
>>52414133
yeah, nice interference mate. Sorry I'm not interested in your shitty comic book.

>>52414053
>I wanna say shit like "well, the weren't evil PER SAY"

Please don't. The word is se, not say.

>>52414144
Well, whatever, it's your loss. I'll be, you know, enjoyin life over here while you get mad that popular things exist.

>>52409993
I made Green Orcs in my world the result of a curse on a group of humans. They try their best to live a functioning human society, bu the curse obfuscates their understanding of how to do so. They plant rows of crops... crops of brambles and weeds with poisonous berries and bitter leaves. They fence in animals... jackals and vultures who just run away and eat their food. They build tall buildings... out of sticks and spit, and they always fall apart. So they always fall back on attacking functioning human towns, stealing their food, squatting in their homes, and making vague curses.

Anyway that's just my world, but I think it answers your question pretty well. They always lose because they're cursed to be incompetent.

>>52413154
I fucking hate the Japanese media trope of "Kobolds=Dog People", "Orcs=Pig People"

>>52414242
Orcs=Pig People is not a japanese trope though.

Or did you think they were literally the first ones to realize orc=porc?

>>52414242
I quite like it.
I find orcs being pig people to be more interesting.

File: Kobold_and_flowers.jpg (66KB, 468x617px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 468x617px

>>52414242
I fucking hate the American media trope of "Kobolds=Lizard People", "Orcs=Green People"

>>52414242
Neither of those are uniquely Japanese, and standard D&D interpretations are every bit as unfaithful to the myth.

>>52413997
I don't necessarily equate popular with being good, some things are just a matter of taste. Pop music for example.

That said, dungeon meshi is legit cool. I think the story and characters are even more interesting than the art style which is unique and cutesy but nothing special.

>>52411633
Wasn't Sea People the regional nickname of the Phoenicians/Carthaginians? Those weren't exactly barbarians.

>>52414335
If anything, them being on the sea meant they were constantly exposed to new technologies and ideas, and being on a ship requires significant degrees of cooperation and planning, both essential in out playing opponents militarily.

>>52414378
Plus, you know, if you actually read the slightest bit about them you'd know they were a race of sophisticated city building merchants whose wealth and power practically made Carthage Rome's archnemesis throughout much of its history.

>>52411242
>Orcs were written as German analogues
No, absolutely not, and the only people who claim this are intellectuals who feel the need to justify their absolutely retarded studies in meaningless subjects by making allegorical claims where no allegory actually exists.

It's also a common myth that Tolkien said that there were no allegories at all in his story, which he didn't. He did deny exactly what you described, however; that the story itself was an allegory of things he had witnessed in his life. He did not deny that his personal experiences had colored his work and that there was allegories to be found within the work, such as the hardships of war, or the corrupting influence of power.

It's a timeless tale, not some redundant reselling of contemporary events.

>>52414394
What? I was agreeing with you they weren't barbarians in any sense besides "not speaking greek"

>>52414335
Carthage wouldn't exist for another 400 years and the only link between the Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians is that Phoenician cities were relatively unmolested.
None of the written accounts say "please send help the Phoenicians are coming"

>>52414432
Not until Hannibal.

>>52414301
And also originally pinned kolbolds are more dog like.

>>52411506
>though they mean different things.
That's debatable. They definitely did mean different things at one point in time. But contemporary usage would indicate that daemon, at least in common speech, is an alternative spelling of demon.

>>52414402
Although among the oddities of The Hobbit compared to The Lord of the Rings (presumably Tolkien hasn't yet fully visualized his world by this point) was the mention orcs/goblins may, in fact, have been the ones to invent tanks, airplanes and bombs, which Tolkien was known to have been very traumatized by in the war.

>>52414402
>It's also a common myth that Tolkien said that there were no allegories at all in his story, which he didn't.
It's in the cover letter for the Silmarillion. He said he never intended to put any allegories towards actual peoples in his work, but by the nature of writing he may end up doing so without conscious effort, or at the very least others would interpret as such from his work.

>>52414283
>Orcs=Green People
>American media trope

What is games workshop

>>52414686
I could have sworn that I heard somewhere that they weren't originally green.

File: 03_UH_01.jpg (49KB, 600x240px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 600x240px

>>52414767

Gygax and Co. made their orcs green. Colors varied quite a bit. Tolkien's were a veritable rainbow, ranging from pale, sallow skin to almost black.

But because there's a huge overlap in the Fantasy Author and tabletop gaming community, it became the codifying trope.

>>52414899
>Gygax
It originated from Warhammer, to differentiate orcs from normal human guys they colored them in bright green.

File: Melee race with I2.png (185KB, 405x532px) Image search: [Google]

185KB, 405x532px

>>52410168
Initiative 2

>>52415031
Then warhammer was supposed to make a computer game with blizzard, which they backed out of the last second, and then we got warcraft, which kept the green look.

File: tumblr_n9jax1s4wo1tgidfpo1_1280.jpg (345KB, 870x1280px) Image search: [Google]

345KB, 870x1280px

>>52415067
It's pretty obvious Blizz wants their orcs to be brown now, considering almost every major Orc character the past few games has the "pre-corruption" brown skin.

>>52409993
Remove the numerous part and they're ok to wreck humans from time to time.

File: 1443069332625.jpg (13KB, 310x502px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 310x502px

>>52414767

They wuz goblins and shit - tolkein orcs are small of stature and manky of skin ton and the most important plot point of Lord of the Rings regarding them: Orcs/goblins can't stand sunlight while the sun literally shines out of elven assholes.

Elves are miraculous, they perform miracles; orcs/goblins are revolting, they refuse to be ruled by aristocrats.
Elves are glamorous, they weild glamors; orc/goblins are wasteful, they've been pushed out into the uninhabitable wastelands
Elves are terrific, they inspire terror; Orc/Goblins are pitiful, they inspire pity.

File: SR5-1920x1080.jpg (738KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

738KB, 1920x1080px

>>52411506
WRONG.

File: smug orc.jpg (127KB, 450x511px) Image search: [Google]

127KB, 450x511px

>>52409993
It's almost like your rich human leaders have been lying to you to perpetuate a racial divide so you keep fighting orcs instead of joining together to overthrow them.

>>52415207
Cool doesn't really relate to what i said, but alright yeah. Goblins also weren't originally green. Ya point?

File: 1445695675422.jpg (25KB, 321x322px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 321x322px

>>52415207
I want a goblin harem.

>>52415201
This. It's a common trend with "Mighty Warrior" races where htey get slaughtered in droves when there's a lot of them but are incredibly intimidating and dangerous when there's only a few.

Somewhat truth in fiction I guess. The Romans decimated the Goths in most engagements. But a skilled warlord could probably thrash a legionnaire in a 1v1.

>>52415336
gonna get diseases

>>52415336
http://luffy316.blogspot.com/2017/01/goblin-diaries-goblins-in-basement.html

Have fun

>>52415031
Also to give the army an overall more unified look, since orcs and goblins didn't have any uniforms or regular gear. And then GW found it funny and ran with.

>>52415448
Not if my stripper pole is a Rod of Remove Disease

>>52415156
Frankly, fun as it is to whine about them turning into SJW and wanting to use the orcs to send some kind of convoluted political message, I think it's far more likely they just realized Warhammer was growing in popularity and wanted to keep themselves distinct.

>>52416097
Anyone who unironically thinks Blizzard is taking an "SJW" angle with their orcs is just projecting their pet politics into the game.

The simple fact is some of Blizzard's writers want to make them actual bad guys again and others don't, all with the added baggage which comes from the fact they're a PC race.

>>52416298
>Anyone who unironically thinks Blizzard is taking an "SJW" angle with their orcs is just projecting their pet politics into the game.

Fucking this.

>>52409993
Gods and/or rings

File: 1419727745196.gif (118KB, 301x400px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 301x400px

>>52409993
>G*rmans
>Suposedly super strong
>Supposedly numerous
>Supposedly great warrior-culture

>Lose every single fucking war they participated in (the Boxer rebellion doesn't count, that wasn't a war but a curbstomp)

Truth is stranger than fiction.

>>52409993

Soldiers are superior to warriors

>>52409993
Its simply impossible to become numerous relative to humans without agriculture unless orcs have some kind of enormous metabolic advantage. Like photosynthetic skin for example.

>>52409993
Who keeps making all these fucking samey threads?

>>52411481
The orcs that are impossibly swole are big uns or leadership. These orcs should by fluff standards be stronger than any normal human could ever be. Younger orcs would normally be as strong as strong humans unless sick/starving/very young.

>>52412628
Implying that low tech societies similar to tribal africa were inept at warfare or the execution of strategy and tactics is ahistorical. Africa gave as good as it got fighting against colonialist influences such as steel and gunpowder era Europe when africa still relied on the arrow, spear, and shield. Most places that didnt die instantly to invasive diseases resisted colonialist powers admirably and effectively up until around the age of repeating firearms such as bolt action rifles.

Orcs getting bopped eternally by warhammer Empire and others is literally just plot armor and/or game mechanics not accurately representing what "should happen realistically". Just my opinion tho.

>>52413361
Can confirm.

File: 7127024128a02b1a6b677010.L.jpg (31KB, 500x186px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 500x186px

>>52411564
>humans were of comparable strength or greater

Only if they were huffing Chaos.

>>52409993
IQ of 55

>>52415207
To be fair, the modern orc trope goes

1) Tolkien (another word for goblin, corrupted elves) plus Uruk-Hai (Orc/Human halfbreeds who are incredibly strong, tough, and wear heavy armor)
2) D&D 1st Edition (Hulking tribal pigmen, which is where anime gets that idea)
3) AD&D (Hulking tribal neanderthals) plus Half-orcs
4) Warhammer 3rd Edition (Hulking tribal neanderthals with green skin and tusks, essentially a halfway point between D&D and AD&D)

And then WarCraft took Warhammer's version and put it on the internet, and had the idea of good guy Orcs as opposed to the "always chaotic evil" template that had existed since Tolkien. And thus, the iconic "orc" identity was formed, and everything that followed either mimicked it or was written as a reaction to it.

Kind of like how Shakespeare didn't write the original telling of Hamlet, but his version was THE version.

>>52414242
This. This so Fucking much.

File: orc.png (342KB, 460x600px) Image search: [Google]

342KB, 460x600px

>>52413154
Porc is best orc.

>>52420481
Agreed.

>>52411393
Well that's not fair to LOTR orc. If memory serves men tended to be pretty damn tall, even by real life standards. And the were taller still in older ages. Hell, wasn't Turin Turambar like 7' or just about?

>>52420481
>>52420842
Nope.

>>52420481
Makes it easier to find rations in dungeons, that's for sure.

>>52419403
They bloated the orc size out of proportion in the years. Bosses were always bigger, 'tough

>>52421086
Your memory doesn't serve. Or a ranged from the size of hobbits to about a head shorter than Men, and while it's true that Men in the elder days were taller, by the third age those of Numenorian descent were the only ones who still could be claimed to be taller than the average humans today and Aragon was exceptionally tall among even among them; which is from where he got the name Strider.

>>52419403
>>52422299
Hey remember that time Grimgore Ironhide came up and beat the shit out of the best empire fighter and the Archeon the Evechosen
Because reasons?

Orcs, Apish and Boarish?

>>52412377
You do realize that Bushido is bullshit invented by people who had grown up never knowing war nor would ever know war in their lifetime, right?

That, and later used as a form of jingoistic propaganda to fluff up the newly minted Meiji Empire.

>>52412602
Sure, society dictated it as in, there were no more wars to be fought and there's only room for so many bureaucrats. The rest of the samurai in the Edo period were more or less told to pound sand and lived on subsistence wages from their lord and by making umbrellas.

You're also highly overstating the impact of Shinto and completely forgetting about Pure-Land Buddhism.

>>52424120
By then, GW already did not have any good writer left.
Is sad.

>>52424120
I sure do! I think I still have that White Dwarf somewhere.

>>52414053

Everyone always goes on about the human sacrifices, as if it's somehow worse than political assassination and the like.

Let's see you guys negotiiate with a giant feathery snake god

>>52424579
If I recall correctly, the giant feathery snake god was actually the only one who was against human sacrifice. So he might actually be a little easier to negotiate with.

>>52424728

Well shit.
I hope the one they did all this sacrificing to was worth it then, because the big snake is the one people usually remember first.

>>52409993
They're usually commanded by more powerful or more intelligent beings (Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, etc). Without clever leaders that bring them success, or strong ones who force them on, they aren't smart or dedicated enough to accomplish much beyond poorly-planned raids for food, weapons, slaves, and so forth.

>>52424579
>Let's see you guys negotiiate with a giant feathery snake god
I laughed more than I should.

>>52414242
It dates back to D&D first edition, mate.

>>52418308

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War

>>52420184
>corrupted elves
That's Jackson's not Tolkien's. Tolkien's origin is uncertain.

>>52414283

My orcs are multiple colors -- grays, greens, black, yellow ochre, red... goblins too (I also throw in little bits of random freakishness like horns/antlers, Cycloean eye/third eye, a hoof,, maybe two, hairlessness/hirsutism/scales/patchy combo, etc).

>>52414283
>Kobolds=Lizard People
They're more of a "scaly dog-people".

>>52427572
>rainbow orcs
So gay

>>52426606
Jackson never gave an origin. Tolkien gave several, but corrupted elves is the one actually proposed in the silmarillion, so most go with that

>>52424120
I fucking love the idea of a black orc just running over all the chosen and aspirants, bowling through all the mutants and beastmen and spawn and trolls and all other manner of bullshit just to deck Archaon in the face then run.

>>52424795
It was the sun. They gave sacrifices to the sun god to give him strength because his brothers and sister were the night sky and would murder him and destroy the world if he was weakened.

>>52428374
Jackson explained it in Fellowship with Saruman talking to the uruk leader. Also Azhog is handsome (for an orc) because he wanted him to be one of those ancient corrupted elves.

I am really tired of noble savage orcs and rapist orcs. Unfortunately, it seems like most settings want them to fall into one of those catagories.

>>52428438
That's why I love Warhammer's orcs.

Post Orcs

>>52428419
Wasnt he talking about the half man origins of uruk hai

>>52428438
Well what else could they be? A well rounded and believable people? Might as well just make human barbarians then

>>52428461
These are basically rape-orcs without the sex.

>>52428530
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgXPRxmHk6Q

>>52428546
And there is a problem with that?

>>52428565
The fact that your post makes it sound like warhammer orcs aren't falling into one of these two categories.

>>52428581
>no noble savages
>no rapists
Literally what you asked.

What setting have the most intresting orcs?
I mean not noble savagesfrom warcraft, not dummb killing mushroom machines from Warhammer and not 'evil' race from Tolkien.

>>52420184

Were there any orcs in the sword and sorcery stuff between LoTR and D&D?

>>52424579
>>52424795

The Human Sacrifice was to keep the sun moving and in honor of Xolotl (who was a partner of Quexicotl in the initial creation of life in the present world); a badass Doggod who chaperoned and protected the sun from being eaten while it passed through the land of the dead each night - he was also in charge of the spirit doggos and axolotls who chaperoned human spirits on their journey through the underworld so in general he was a good doggo to appease.

Aztecs also held that the reasons the Toltecs weren't around any more (and they basically deified and incorporated the toltecs into their mythology in a generally positive light) was because they didn't sacrifice enough people and the 4th sun got eaten and had to be recreated/reborn... but the 5th sun (our current one) didn't move until an act of mass murder of the other gods by an aspect of Quezicotl, Ehecatl the god of the winds, was performed, with Xolotl dying last because he didn't wanna die and was a skilled enough shape shifter to avoid being murdered the longest. The Aztecs then really doubled down on the ritual killings to keep the sun moving through the night and to feed Xolotl who accompanied the 5th sun on its journey to stop it being eaten again and to avoid haivng to die again himself. In exchange Xolotl sent his emmissaries, the axolotls and the hairless Xolo dogs, to protect human souls passing through the underworld (note: a lot like how the black dogs of the british isles work as psychopomps).

>>52428595
This is why I said that they are still basically rapists-orcs without the actual sex. Just imagine everything about them and add dicks. They are de-sexualized, but the concept of the brute that takes things by force is the same.

>>52409993

Getting every non-orc civilization against you tends to do that.

>>52428607
TES?

>>52411393

>Wrestling Kayfabe

Is that why every human in WarCraft that isn't an old person looks like a professional wrestler?

>>52428438
At a certain point you're going to want to look into something that isn't an orc to fulfill your desire for a strong/tough race. After a certain point you're asking for fish that don't need water to breath because that's been overdone. Look at dolphins. Fucking look at the sadistic sea-rapists. This is what fucking happens when you try to force ideas onto an established concept.

>>52414170
>Please don't. The word is se, not say.
Uh oh, watch out guys. We've got a man here with some basic latin and he's not afraid to use it.

>>52414053
>Their obsession with human sacrifice is kind of alarming
Yeah, usually is, that.

>>52424579
>Let's see you guys negotiiate with a giant feathery snake god
I'm certainly willing to try! What do I roll for that, INT?

>>52428683
I'm fine with Tolkien's orcs though.

File: MorgulArmy.jpg (43KB, 707x289px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 707x289px

>>52410044
This is something I never understood. When Tolkien gave us our modern interpretation of orcs he made them rather disciplined industrialist with a knack for metalworking and engineneering.

Why do most reinterpretations show them as ooga booga savages?

>>52428635
You by that definition everything but the noble savage is a rapist savage.

>>52428635
>basically rapists without the actual sex
That word you keep using... I don't think it means what you think it means.

Humans have been doing violence for a long time Anon. We've got words for lots of different types. And I mean LOTS. There's actually a stupefying array of words to distinguish and quantify prettymuch any kind of violence you're capable of imagining. Warhammer orcs are down with most of them, just not that one.

>>52428730
But orks rape the local environ with their spores. Quite viciously.

>>52428619
They never actually sacrificed to Xolotl, but to the sun itself, who was either Huitzilopochtli or Nanahuatzin, depending on the version of the myth

>>52428716
Tolkien's orcs are not particularly disciplined or industrious on their own. If you look at orcs "in the wild", like those in Moria or the ones encountered in the Hobbit, they're a pretty ragtag bunch. What you've got in the pic there represents Sauron's army - if a giant fiery eyeball with mind control powers tells you to start making armor, or march in straight lines, you're going to do it, even if you normally wouldn't tend to.

Both versions owe something to Tolkien, is the short answer. The evolution to savages as the "default" orc can probably be blamed on Gygax, and those who imitated him.

>>52428716
Because it gets across their incompetence and chaotic sicietal struxture better. Orcs are always shit without a non-orc leader

>>52428722
Not every savage takes everything by brute force. Not every savage solves every issue with violence, or is the violence itself.

File: dennis.png (729KB, 578x420px) Image search: [Google]

729KB, 578x420px

>>52428744
>But orks rape the local environ with their spores. Quite viciously.
Metaphors are NO BASIS for a system of orc classification!!

>>52428800
Its still rape if its a plant anon.

>>52409993
There are no orcs.
> Be human empire
> Village Donkeyass was raided by neighbouring godliness tribe living in Shitty Wasteland.
> Send a 1000 soldiers to deal with those 100 pests
> They don't take enough water and have to retreat, losing 300 soldiers to infighting.
> Reported to have met a force of 5000 especially strong goblins
> Send an army of 10000.
> Numanese soldiers mistook Lebaron soldiers for enemies. Village slut Galadriel got Dire Crabs in her public hair. 6000 injured or dead.
> Reported about 100 000 goblins twice as tall as human and thrice as strong. Let's call them orcs.
> Two Hobbit murderhobos went and convinced goblin chief to cooperate

> Two heroes not only completely eradicated orc threat, turning their chief's doomsday device against it's creators, but also rescued some weak but innocent creatures who were enslaved by orcs.
Hobbits gained dukedom, goblins gained citizenship.

Thus ended the Orc Wars of 2856

>>52420184
>(Hulking tribal pigmen, which is where anime gets that idea)
The orc/pig connection is older than that, but I agree that Japan likely got the idea from RPGs.

>>52428815
>Its still rape if its a plant anon.
"Oh, you went full Ferngully. Never go full Ferngully."

Just out of curiosity, though... do you believe a fungus is a plant?

>>52428784
>sicietal struxture
I'm not sure what a sicietal struxture is, but I think I want one.

Also, I'm calling "Sicietal Struxture" as a band name.

>>52428958
No entirely different kingdom, I was talking about the victim.

>>52428619
Not that I can find.

Narnia used talking animals, but I don't recall any pigs as baddies. Prydain had resurrected corpses from a Black Cauldron.

>>52429032
Eh, the environment wanted it and you know it.

>>52409993
Because the humans have steel they are probably using shitty Iron or wood clubs

>>52409993
Honestly I'm surprised Elves aren't the stereotypical bad guys. Sure, Orcs get persuaded to fight all the time, but Elves generally consider the other races worth less than themselves. I'm kinda surprised Elves don't enslave Orcs more often.

>>52429088
>I'm kinda surprised Elves don't enslave Orcs more often.
Because they usually follow a philosophy of "no one is worth less than themselves"

>>52411242
>>52410136
The most direct inspirations for Tolkien's orcs are usually considered to be an amalgamation of Rome's northern and western enemies, the Hun, with maybe a bit of Mongol Horde thrown in.

None of which is in any way surprising, since Tolkien was a scholar of classics, european mythology, and history (in addition to languages, obviously). LotR is, in a lot of ways, a summation of the cultural mythos of the western world, and the "Invading hordes of subhuman barbarians" archetype is just one aspect of that.

>>52429088
Only because you think you are better for some reason doesn't make you automatically a bad guy. Look at Warhammer High Elves. They are arrogant, but they will sacrifice themselves to fight against Chaos any day. It's this willingness, among others, that makes them arrogant.

File: notwrong.jpg (130KB, 688x702px) Image search: [Google]

130KB, 688x702px

>>52429151
>Only because you think you are better for some reason doesn't make you automatically a bad guy.

High Elves aren't bad guys, they're just assholes.

>>52428635
If you don't want brutes that takes things by force, why would you want to want orcs at all?

>>52429196
Because I'm not the anon that started this reply-chain.

>>52428958
>>52429074
And now I'm sitting here feeling like there's a missing link in the chain of Wacky Fantasy Cartoons From The 80's, that being an environmental fable where a Hexus-type character leads an army of orc-type baddies to cut down forests and pollute the lakes and then some kind of nature spirit raises a party of adventurers to go drop the one ring in a volcano and save the day, etc.

Actually, wait... I may have just described the plot of Wizards. Nevermind.

>>52429088
Non-elven races are so inferior that they can't even serve as good slaves.

File: secret-of-steel.jpg (78KB, 564x721px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 564x721px

>>52429084
>Because the humans have STEEL
This fantasy trope is always one that amused me, I think just because of how bizarre it is. In a lot of settings, some factions will have access to specific technologies that nobody else ever gets. Thematically, it kinda makes sense in tabletop and related genres (like PC strategy games) because it keeps the factions distinct and gives them a "thing". But it's so rarely explained.

In RL, if your enemy has access to some kind of innovation that gives them a substantial advantage, you copy that shit AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. One side may be able to restrict access to tech for a specific battle or the length of campaign, but it rarely lasts long. Much of military history is just an endless series of arms races.

There are , of course, cases from history where there were huge technological disparities (Zulu Wars, for instance), but those are more the exception than the rule.

>>52429409
You are completely correct.

One of my favorite fantasy series (the Farsala trilogy by Hilari Bell) had as a major plot point that the fantasy!Romans had better steel then the fantasy!Arabs.

The protagonists had comparable steel in six months, and had begun passing around the swords by month eight.

>>52429460
>One of my favorite fantasy series (the Farsala trilogy by Hilari Bell) had as a major plot point that the fantasy!Romans had better steel then the fantasy!Arabs.
>The protagonists had comparable steel in six months, and had begun passing around the swords by month eight.
Sure, that's believable. It could even take substantially longer than that, depending on how difficult the techniques to produce the steel are.

What's not realistic is competing factions NEVER getting it, even though they should be more than capable of doing so. I'm talking about weird scenarios like Warhammer world or warcraft, where you've got one or two factions that have exclusive access to something like gunpowder for decades (or centuries).

If you take a Tolkieny route with your orcs, where unassisted they are literally just too stupid to make or use higher tech, then fine. That's an explanation I can accept, since it has no real-world analogue. But if your orcs are capable of figuring out other types of engineering (like in WHFB where they already have torsion powered siege weapons), then the first time they salvage some artillery pieces from the battlefield, they are going to start connecting the dots and be building their own cannon and bombards before too long.

>>52429409
I knew the riddle of steel was named after conan, but now I understand a little more.