/osrg/ - Old School Renaissance

>What's your favorite OSR setting?
Something homebrewed that fosters a good local community.

>>52337370
>What's your favorite OSR setting?
I love using the AD&D cosmology and packing it in with a lot of real-world mythological powers. I'm not a fan of D&D gods so I exclude them generally.

Sadly I've never been in a game where the players get to a high enough level to travel the planes though.

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>>52337370
>Question: What's your favorite OSR setting?

The Monks of Cool, whose tiny and exclusive monastery is hidden in a really cool and laid-back valley in the lower Ramtops, have a passing-out test for a novice. He is taken into a room full of all types of clothing and asked: Yo, my son, which of these is the most stylish thing to wear? And the correct answer is: Hey, whatever I select.

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hirelings and weird NPCs

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>>52337503
I approve.

It's stupid as hell, but I approve.

In regards to last thread:
The problem of a wizard with high con catching up to a fighter in HP is moot if you're using AD&D hit die. MUs still have d4 while fighters get d10.

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>>52337370
I like Dark Albion.

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>>52337508
>While I don't use sorcerers, I think it'd be kind of thematic to have them roll randomly for their spells each day/adventure. The magic-user would plan and deliberate over what spells he should use and cast while the sorcerer would have to work with what he got, even if it was three instances of Magic Mouth.

I could get down with that. Maybe random ranges and damage types as well.

And you sometimes explode.

>>52337554
I have one in my game who shrieks about how SHIELDS ARE NEITHER ARMOR NOR WEAPON and keeps spitting on people for not washing often enough.

>>52337582
I don't like it that, to the extent players have control over where their abilities go, magic-users are likely to highly prioritize constitution, meaning that magic-users tend to be good at constitution checks, which belies the frailty a low hit dice size is supposed to impose on them.

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>>52337646
Well that is excellent then.

Any Exploding Death Men yet?

>>52337639
I like the wild magic surge mechanic in 5e, something like that would probably work for causing random effects and sometimes explosions. Something like, every time you cast a spell you roll a d20. If the number rolled is equal to or under the level of spell you're trying to cast, a wild surge happens.

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I'm trying to make an OSR setting and it's fucking tough cookies.

>>52337815
Not yet, those are planned for later. But I am glad you saved my shitty class inspired by another anon.

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>>52337851
Well the other anon was me, so I'd feel terrible if I didn't save it. And it did trigger a bunch of other anons, so clearly, it's a great idea.

>>52337847
I think that's neat, but it still makes the spells predictable.

Wizards have nice orderly spell lists. They're like the guy in tacticool armour with bandoliers and carefully labelled pouches and hand signals.

Sorcerers are like these guys.

>>52337850
This will probably be an annoying reply, but it's only as hard as you make it, Anon. You can just go with a small hexmap's worth of regular medieval fantasy to start with, you don't NEED anything more to play. And if you WANT more gonzo and peculiar stuff, just add it as you go along, in the margins of or outside the first hexmap.

>>52337939
Yeah, my thinking was to make them like M-Us but with an ever-changing loadout of spells plus the minute chance of exploding into a fireball if they trigger a wild surge. Not sure how I'd randomize spells without putting in a whole lot of work changing them up, possibly a random roll determining the level of the sorcerer to use when casting the spell, so you can cast Fireball as a 1st level Sorcerer? Hell, combine it with the wild surge chance roll, indicating how much of a handle you have on the spell.
>Get 20 on Sorcerer die, cast Fireball as a level 20 caster, basically act like a magic shotgun
>Get 2 on Sorcerer die, cast Fireball as a level 2 caster, your handle on the spell goes awry and smoke starts spewing out from all your orifices due to the wild magic surge
Something to that effect.

>>52326020
>Due to their small size and skills at dodging, halflings have a bonus of -2 on their Armor Class when being attacked by creatures larger than man-sized.
Pretty sure this should read "+2 on their Armor Class" or "-2 on to-hit rolls" since you're using ascending AC everywhere else.

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>>52338131
Well, I did just post 100 spells

https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-100-orthodox-spells.html

So you could go:
1. Roll 1d100
2. Consult table. Get spell
3. Roll 1d4 for [dice] and multiply it by 1d6 for [sum] and hey, presto, that's your spell for the day.
4. Hooray!

What's a good way to do equipment and encumbrance?

I like simplified versions. Something like light items and daggers are one point, medium items and weapons are two points, armor is like 3 points and so on. Add your strength modifier to how many items you can carry. Everyone gets a base of like 10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx3KD9Xo1fg

>>52337503
Spears or really cumbersome pikes seem like a Truer Form of weapons than broadswords.

>>52338662
What about the goblin punch version?

Inventory Slots and Encumbrance
You have a number of Inventory Slots equal to your Strength + 2 (from you backpack). Most items take up one Inventory Slot. Two-handed weapons take up two inventory slots. Armor takes up a number of slots equal to its Defense bonus (or AC-10 in some systems). Negligible items (small enough to put inside your closed mouth) take up none. Coins and gems never take up any Inventory Slots.

You gain 1 point of Encumbrance for every Inventory Slot in excess of your capacity. In addition to getting Encumbered from carrying too much, you can also gain Encumbrance from wearing armor. Each point of an armor's Defense bonus in excess of +3 (or AC above 13) incurs a point of Encumbrance. Encumbrance is applied as a penalty to your Movement, Stealth, and Dex checks. (It doesn't actually decrease your Dex, it just makes any Dex checks more difficult.)

>>52337693
>to the extent players have control over where their abilities go,
>tend to be good at constitution checks,
I bet you like NWPs, too

>>52337850, >>52259593

>>52338717

I don't like how it makes strength so important, but the rest of the rules are pretty much exactly what I wanted.

Bit more Goblin Punch shills on here then I expected.

>>52338316
>since you're using ascending AC everywhere else.
*Hssssss* didn't he sort-of promise to fix the AC?

>>52338833
>didn't he sort-of promise to fix the AC
Oh, I'm not sure. I wasn't paying too much attention last thread.

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>>52338803
Well, Strength has to do something (other than adding or subtracting damage). It doesn't add to attack rolls in the system.

We've established that there are at least four of us.
>>52281717
>>52281768
>>52281916
>>52282047
>>52282043

>>52338849
Not last thread, the time before that.
Pretty sure he offered to have both ACs listed.

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>>52337584
Is it in the trove somewhere?

>>52327468
It would be near the right amount of gonzo.

>>52338833
>>52338849
>>52338877
I think he was talking about switching back to descending AC at one point. Not sure where he ended up though.

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Reposting in the new thread. I wrote a post about Elementals, how to interact with them, and what they can do for you. It's... probably not what you think.

https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-what-does-elemental-want.html

It's probably one of my favorite posts yet, even if it does include pretentious bullshit like:

>[Ice elementals] loathe fire elementals with all the bitterness of an atheist invited to a maudlin heaven.

Still, it does explain storms, acid, and glaciers in what I hope is a unique and interesting way.

>>52337639
>>52337847
>>52337939
>>52338131
Heck, I'm just gonna roll everything up into one post and shill my shitty, rarely updated blog while I do it.
https://dmnoises.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/my-take-on-sorcerers.html

>>52337584
That art is fucking great, is the setting good?

>>52339172
Yes! It's in the Settings folder in the Supplements folder.

>>52339689
I like it. It's very not-Europe-y, if that's what you're into.

>>52339666
Is there supposed to be any mechanical advantage to sorcerors? Faster leveling, or something?

>>52339838
Generally casting spells at higher levels with the chance of a wild surge doing something more beneficial. A lot of their theme is "live fast die explosively".
Upping their hit die to d6 or allowing them to wield weapons other than daggers, darts, and staves could be good ways to make them a little more desirable than a wizard.

What do you guys think of randomly generated creatures?

>>52339969
Low opinion. It leads to messy, stuffy settings.
...not quite kitchen sink, but bad for the same reasons.

And honestly, monster design seems important enough to want to do well.

Old thread is extant.

>>52340180
I was thinking more like, the world is filled with your typical mundane creatures and fantasy monsters, but then there's also some randomly generated creatures in there. I was thinking like the titans and forgotten beasts and some of the demons from dwarf fortress.

Yeah if you tried to randomly generate every creature that would feel like shit, I agree. But like say a dungeon has 1 big and tough randomly generated creature to fight

I was thinking about just generating a world in dwarf fortress, going into legends mode, picking a titan/forgotten beast at random, and coming up with stats for it

>>52340186
>Old thread is extant.
Old thread is archived.

>>52340257
>I was thinking about just generating a world in dwarf fortress, going into legends mode, picking a titan/forgotten beast at random, and coming up with stats for it
This is perfectly fine, but only because it's (mostly) deliberate creature design.

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>>52339969
>>52340180

I think if you try to generate the ENTIRE creature randomly, then yeah it will end up kind of shitty.

But if you have a specific archetype or chassis for a creature in mind and give it a few random possibilities I think it can be quite good. Check out the Small God monster entry here.

>>52339969
>>52340180
>>52340654

I like it. I don't do it often, I'm content with the staples, but occasionally I really want to throw a curveball in, so I randomly roll a monster and then come up with a way the world sees it (is it a myth, is it a common problem, is it a thing like based Owlbears where some wizard got smashed) and knows of it.


Also, I enjoy it as a toolkit because sometimes I want to random-gen an entire setting with Donjon and it's cool to random-gen monsters with it, and then just put it all together. It's like a puzzle. It's fun.

>>52337370
>What's your favorite OSR setting?

Wilderlands of High Fantasy.

>>52337370
>What's your favorite OSR setting?
Post-Tolkien New Weird stuff. Yes I'm a fucking hipster.

>>52341563
If that's the case, then literally everyone on OSR is a fucking hipster.

What happened with zak s (in terms of content quality)? I've been reading these in this order:
>motbm is uninspired as fuck, just a exercise in information delivery with some cool factor shoved in in strategic chokepoints. Forces a story. Layout is serviceable but boring and aseptic.
>rapl is interesting and has a few great bits, but feels lazy, incohesive/incomplete. No low level adventures. Excelent layout/illos without looking busy
>vorheim is *top notch*, cover to cover - except the layout

The rules and random tables stay excelent, but the content feels lazier and tamer with each new book...

>>52341720
That's funny, I've had almost the opposite reaction to all of those. Although I wouldn't call any of his books bad content.
It seems as if he gets his friends to come up with ideas or write parts of his books, so maybe that's the stuff you don't like?

Back in old-school games, there were many enemies that nonmagical weapons couldn't harm.

How can you have the party face these enemies without such weapons, build up tension and challenge, without still utterly annihilating them?

>>52341848
Not 'bad', but uninspired or plain standard content. And I'm a big fan of false machine, so that's not a problem.
What's so good about motbm? Granted, it's big and has flavor, but that's it.
Vornheim is a (vaguely defined) setting, plus a city, plus 3 awesome adventures with ramping difficulty with interesting monsters; plus you get tons of DM tools, tables and the like - in a limited page count.

Vorheim feels like a dude grabbing you by the neck and yelling "i played this and it was awesome, here's how you can do it too, LOOK". It's no perfect and some wording can be grating (specially stats), but that's it.
Motbm feels like a wedding invitation under the door saying "welp so here is this game content, good luck with it".
For ex. the Cannibal Critics feel like something a guy in art school would force upon his non-artsy players. More like a vague... thing, than the mindblowing creativity + excellent gameplay you'd expect from that combo of authors.

>>52342051
Wolvesbane, garlic, holy water, sunlight... standard equipment list stuff.

What is the most contrarian sort of deity (or force or philosophy) that you could see backing paladins, short of purely opposite day stuff like good fiends and good undead?

>>52341720
Dunno, I've seen nothing but near-unanimous dicksucking of the guy and his work. Personally I think they're "just okay". A little too vague and artsy for me to do anything but cannibalize the bits I like and then ditch the rest.

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I have three v. important questions:
- what do you think of baremaidens.com?
- what do you think of dungeon synth?
- what do you think of this?

>>52342931
I don't understand the first two questions, but that's pretty damn neat.

>>52342931
>what do you think of baremaidens.com?
It's porn.

>what do you think of dungeon synth?
Pretty boring but alright if you haven't found any better background music for a session.

>what do you think of this?
Looks like some I'd draw while desperately brainstorming for a session I forgot to prepare earlier.

>>52342931
i like a bit of summoning but any attempt to go any further into dungeon synth i seem to find a whole lot of music that just fucking sucks
I should like it, dark, lo-fi music about fantasy, but I just can't do it.

>>52337370
>What's your favorite OSR setting?
TSR: I can't choose just one.
OSR: I dunno, maybe the one Faster Monkey used for Lesserton & Mor/In the Shadow of Mount Rotten
Other (/tg/): Dominiarian Ice Age
Other (vidya): Skyrim
Other (literature): Demon in The Mirror

>>52339969
I think the Monster Extractors for DCC would work for that system but not much else.

Has anyone got the Blood and Treasure 2e monster book?

>>52342931
>not into it, blond women with big tits dressed up for nerds is even more tacky than regular porn
>don't like low tempo music
>Neat. Seems a bit small but the style doesn't get in the way of content, iconography is clear. Has some funny shit in it like merchants in pots. Would be interested in more.

I want to run a game with wilderness travel between towns and dungeons, so I'm thinking of running a point crawl with each point being an interesting place / landmark, and the edges (lines) being landscape travelled between those landmarks.

I need help with ways to make regular european terrain feel nuanced. How do I vary woods and hills? Are there some resources for making this interesting and fun?

Stuff like darker denser woods, older woods with bigger trees, parts of the wood with certain flora, etc.

>>52338717
>Coins and gems never take up any Inventory Slots.
Not the guy who originally asked, but this is literally the exact opposite of what I would consider a good encumbrance system. I'd even prefer something like
>armor sets base movement rate
>nothing else you carry matters for encumbrance purposes until the referee calls you a mong
>coins and gems are meticulously calculated like a sperg based on the weight of real-world coins and carats of gemstones

And that's not something I'd call an ideal system. It's just that how much loot you can carry is the *crucial* factor in an encumbrance system.

What's your opinion on letting players having more than one character? Because a lot of the old tales have parties with like a dozen dudes, but nowadays it's good if I can scrounge together four assholes that don't flake.

Frankly, experience and evidence have led me to believe they never had those huge player groups to begin with.

>>52342369
>>52337503

>>52344694
>What's your opinion on letting players having more than one character?
Fine as long as you bring 2/adventure at most.
>they never had those huge player groups to begin with.
Those huge groups were "everybody who hung out at their FLGS, and their uncles."

>>52344737
All right, fine, but those huge groups would either have had to come back for several more sessions, or play like twelve hours at one time, in order to get through all those big dungeons with big bands of enemies with their hugeass parties.

Nowadays it takes my three-man group fucking four sessions exploring a single two-story manor.

>>52344324
>How do I vary woods and hills?
Generally speaking, you don't.

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>>52344762
You could drop mid-dungeon (mid-session, even) in or out and have you character conveniently appear or disappear.
Same deal if you died mid-session, but had other characters outside the dungeon.

>or play like twelve hours at one time, in order to get through all those big dungeons
>it takes my three-man group fucking four sessions exploring a single two-story manor
Chesterton's Fence. You (or someone before you) took out rules that ought to have stayed in.

>>52344822
But specifically, I want to in order to make choice of place to go meaningful.

How does different parts of sherwood forest differ from eachother?

>>52344956
I don't see how the presence of a caller makes things any faster: it just moves the problem one level lower, you needing to all tell the caller what you do rather than the DM, without truly solving a thing.

>>52345178
The caller makes most decisions on his own.
Any consultation that happens is minimal.

You're welcome to give the caller suggestions, and the caller is welcome to ignore them.
If the caller has your character (rather than the group) do something, you can say "no."
If the caller has the group do something you don't like, you can elect a new caller.

>>52342931
>what do you think of dungeon synth?

As a child of the 80s, I know deep down in my heart that synthesizers are actually for lamers, like bisexual dudes from Europe with ridiculous hairdos that we all make fun of.

>Learn to play a real instrument, wuss!
- Teenage Me

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What are the best books on D&D's history?

I hear mixed things about this one, but god damn I can't help but judge it by that wonderful cover.

>>52345161
Google 'weird forests' or something similar and loot ideas from their pictures. Check out tmblers about the woods. Go for a walk in a big park or the woods if you've got one near by. There's a huge amount of variety in most woods. Enough to give you a few different descriptions for encounters anyway.

>This part of the forest is densely packed with tall, thin white barked trees that bend in the wind.
>Here a massive weeping willow grows over a chunk of jagged rock, obscuring what lay beneath it.
>Ancient tree roots are exposed along the slope of this hill, thick and gnarled.
>New growth packs this part of the forest, smaller scrub and young trees over rotting stumps.
>The fallen fir needles in this part of the forest cover the ground, preventing much undergrowth.
>The remains of a rusted out metal chariot rest overturned in a ditch. Mosses and corrosion spread through its frame.

Shit like that. That's just behind the house where I grew up.

>>52345986
It was a car not a chariot, but you get the idea.

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>>52345477
I've heard good stuff about this one.

>>52345477
Playing at the World >>52346220 is the best one, bar none. If you don't like autistically meticulous lineages of where shit like AC and initiative came from you'll want to skip a lot of the system section while reading, but it's there if you do want it.

>>52346220
>>52346839

Any chance of getting it in the trove?

>>52339516
>I'm not sure what this could be used for, but it seems like something an Orthodox Wizard would do.
Seems like a good way to transfer memorized spells.

>>52347272
Don't know if it's in the trove but it's def. available in PDF (have seen the physical book and it's brutishly huge and unwieldy) so shouldn't be impossible to get it

Does anyone else gravitate to OSR not for the style of play, but the rule simplicity? I'm currently homebrewing a version of LotFP that takes a lot of cues from 5e to give my players more of an ongoing campaign with their characters instead of high death terror. Rave/Class separation with bonuses, higher HDs (but lower AC from LotFP).

I tried and tried to get them into the OSR mindset, but it just isn't working and I'm not about to introduce a whole new system. Also I don't think 5e is simple enough, as most of them just casually play.

Any advice on things to keep and things to tweak?

>>52349057
Something like that, only my system of choice (AD&D 2e) really isn't that simple. But I like its rules a lot more than those of later editions, and prefer it even when otherwise not doing an OSR game.

>>52349057

Yes, a lot of people are here for that reason. Some of the crotchety grognards hate it, but it's a valid approach as long as you focus on the dungeon crawling.

>>52349057
>Does anyone else gravitate to OSR not for the style of play, but the rule simplicity?
At least half the thread population these days does this. (Your own question comes up roughly every other thread.) It used to mostly be people who came for the play style, but you see more and more people going "ree muh grog high-lethality playstyle, bluh blur shitters, the Primer is for fags" now.

I don't mind the preference per se, but a lot of you guys sure have a salty-ass attitude in here

>>52349057
Death at -10 instead of 0. Keep your traps similar to each other.
Tack on simple and generous! rules to abstract parlay, surrender, and retreat.
And remember that the "OSR mentality" asks more of the referee than of the players.

>>52349057
>Rave/Class separation
Noice.

>>52349203
Lol. Fuckin autocorrect.

>>52349203
Everyone's the same at a rave, maaaaaan
Unite across class borders!
PLUR

>>52349219
>first L is capital
Whenever I see this I fill with doubt. I know you to be phoneposter,
but wish to believe you emoted throwing arms up in exhaustion.

>>52349186
>the Primer is for fags

What's wrong with the Primer? It seems like pretty sensible advice what it has.

>>52345477
There is "Of Dice and Men" as well as the "Designers & Dragons" line of books.

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>>52349284

>>52349334
I'm not sure I understand.

>>52349284

It attracts some criticism, mostly from the anti-grognards it seems to me, that it's too political and and pushes "the one right way to do it" too hard, and has kind of a strawman of "new school play."

>>52349284

Not the same guy but if we're talking about the Matthew Finch one, I have some issues with it.

Mainly the way he presents modern-style versus old-style games. He makes it sound like rolling dice to detect traps (for example) is a new thing. I don't want to tap every wall, floor and ceiling with a 10' pole. I want to take a turn to say my character does that and then roll a d6, just like it says in my copy of Basic.

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>>52349492
It's a mnemonic for the False Dilemma fallacy.

>>52349749
What false dilemma do you think it gives?

I briefly ran an OSR-style game (though in 3.5, part of the problem with it, if I ever did this experiment again I'd probably use AD&D) in a homebrew roguelike dungeon setting.

I was running another campaign in a homebrew setting at the time and I decided to do another, simpler campaign for funsies set in the same world.

The gist was that the setting's trickster god was bored and sick of the other gods so he decided to uplift a mortal to godhood. He asked the other gods who he should give the gift to, and they gave him shitty answers, until he asked the god of war who was like "test them with a trial only the hardest fucker on the planet could win" and the trickster god was into that, so he made The Mad Jester's Labyrinth.

It was basically the old West Marches archetype but a massive dungeon instead of a frontier setting, that continually repopulated and changed so it was never fully cleared (I was working on items and such to make it less of a slog for people past the first couple levels)

Hyper-lethal, no hand-holding or fudging rolls, enforced wandering monsters and similar shit. Minimal gameplay outside the dungeon, mostly just buying items and healing and shit.

And at the bottom of the dungeon was a golden apple that bestowed godhood on the one who ate it. Operative word being one. So no matter how big the party that wins the challenge is, only one of them gets the prize.

Take B/X

>wisdom -> willpower
>everybody has d8 HD & max level 6
>fuse MU and Cleric, require Intelligence 18
>thief > ranger, refluff a couple skills into outdoorsy shit
>mechanize alignment
>pay royalties to use fluff and the word hobbit

Perfect ME game?

>>52349284
>What's wrong with the Primer?
I wasn't saying anything was wrong with it, on the contrary, I was saying shitters keep complaining about it. I don't know why exactly but I get the impression they're angry that he knows that there's a right way to play (old) D&D in the sense that the system is designed for a certain type of play, and he refuses to be mealy-mouthed about it or waste time stroking egos and saying "of course every way to play is equally valid and beautiful". But the Primer's all about enthusiastically promoting a play style, so even if you believe that all ways to play ARE equally valid I don't see that there's any reason for butthurt.

>>52349810
The False Dilemma is:
OS is only "role play," NS is only "roll play," there is no "middle ground."
Incidentally, "OS is only role play" and "NS is only roll play" are Faulty Generalizations.

>>52349951
>>inb4 strawman and fallacy fallacy

You could avoid a lot of this by trimming down the rhetoric jargon on a Chinese motion picture message board.

Otherwise I agree.

>>52349989
It /is/ jargon, but you really ought to know it.

False Dilemma: pretending there is no third option
Faulty Generalization: building off false assumptions

The name was a snide joke. I agree with the primer conclusion, but not with its argument.
Strawman: attacking an argument that wasn't actually made
Fallacy Fallacy: assuming that incorrect arguments must support incorrect conclusions

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>>52339666
Ooh, neat.!

>>52339736
Thank you.

>>52348076
>Seems like a good way to transfer memorized spells.

Holy shit, Anon, I didn't even think of that. Nice work. I award you 1 bonus HP healed at your next lunch.

>>52348076

Who are you quoting?

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>>52350708
It's the 100 spells I posted here.
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-100-orthodox-spells.html

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>>52350904
And if they get to uppity, toss some of your Exhaustion at them.

Orthodox Wizards are jerks.

>>52350806

Ah, I thought it might be something on the blog, but it wasn't in the blog post that was linked in the thread post that he was responding to.

Wait, CTRL-F doesn't find what he's quoting in the PDF either. What's the thing that you weren't sure what it could be used for, and that he suggested it could be used to transfer spells?

Better quoting is needed!

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>>52350992
It's in the blog article. I didn't put all of my "here's why I wrote this and what I think of it" comments in the PDF because they didn't seem useful.

Bah. Quoting.

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>>52350633
Probably a good way to ignore apprentices, too.
Stick a random insight (or spell) in, leave them to ponder it, fuck off for a month.
Spares the Orthodox Wizard plenty of misappropriated time.

>>52350931
Ah, snap. I was fetching an image about pondering and fixing some phrasing.

While I'm at it though, I'll leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHLw2lyLnA8

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>>52351034

Ah, I see. You know, it would have been less confusing if, at some point, one of you guys had linked the actual blog post that you were discussing instead of everything but.

>status: kinda peeved, actually

>>52351034
>I didn't put all of my [...] comments in the PDF because they didn't seem useful.
The annotations gave more intent than I'm used to seeing without bogging down the rules.
I would almost say they were more useful than the spells, and they were certainly more interesting.

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>>52351115
>it would have been less confusing if, at some point, one of you guys had linked the actual blog post that you were discussing

It's right here:
>>52350806

Ah well. The confusion has got this thing more discussion than it's ever had to date, so... hooray?

Let that be a lesson to me. Don't post stuff politely. Make vague statements or clickbait URLs and see what people do.

I see no way in which this cunningly laid plan could ever fail.

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>>52351158
Thanks. Part of the joy is giving players a short spell description without any intent or notes and seeing what they do.

"Can I use Anklecrusher to open a door? Make myself a seat? Dig a hole?"

"Oh, wait, can I bounce this spell off a mirror?"

That sort of thing. My notes list some of /my/ ideas, but as >>52348076
shows, my ideas aren't close to exhaustive.

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>>52345401
>bisexual dudes from Europe with ridiculous hairdos that we all make fun of.

I've always disliked the gold standard because the ridiculous inflation of prices with gold pieces is kind of lore breaking and lame. Like hundreds of gold for a horse? Kind of ridiculous.

So instead I'm moving to porcelain coins. Pretty standard units of measurement that can be low-value as well as being massed for bigger transactions.

The question is; especially since I'm using a money spent on things other then upgrades = xp houserule, what should the cost of stuff be?

>>52351325 c >>52332563
Set prices literally wherever.

If you /really/ need a baseline, Athas has ceramic coins IIRC.

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>>52351325
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/currency-in-osr-games.html

You can use gold, or seashells, or special novelty hats made from rare birds, but if the players don't have a way to evaluate the relative worth of things, and you don't have a good way to estimate the value of something, it's more or less wankery.

So pick your favorite equipment table, decide how much some things are worth in whatever real-world currency your players are familiar with, and scale from there. You will need to use some feynman approximations.

>>52351325
Who knows? Every game has a different price list and they are usually so oddly thought out that it leads to situations where a lantern and 300 chickens cost the same.

I kind of like LotFP's price list though, only because there's some semblance of effort put into how much stuff should cost to benefit the game. Still, the aforementioned problems exist. I'd say that you just have to come up with one yourself if you want it to work well and not just acceptably.

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>>52351325

I made this screengrab of Vornheim for posts like this. Personally, I recommend using the silver standard like LotFP does, rather than the gold standard. You can make up a price list for literally anything, steal it from other OSR games, or even outright snatch it from [non-OSR D&D Edition].

I keep a lot of my old d20/3.x stuff around just for this reason. I even have a pirate d20 game called Skull & Bones that has real world conversions of currency for the "Golden Age" of piracy.

But, Vornheim's little guide is helpful for when you don't have material prepared.

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>>52351531
>You cannot amplify the heat, so a candle's flame cannot melt an iron bar, but you could transfer the icy cold of a glacier to a campfire and extinguish it.
"Cold" is relative, but heat is an absolute and quantifiable description of energy.
As written, what's to stop you from subliminating air to melt an iron bar?

...meant for >>52350806

>>52351325
>>52351531

Additionally, I recommend non-OSR, non-D&D games as an alternative. King Arthur: Pendragon if you're looking for a more English take on wealth and whatnot (so, pounds sterling and all that). We ended up using KA: P's wealth and prices to convert the prices of the very poorly put together A Song of Ice and Fire RPG (the Green Ronin one).

This is also helpful, but not always useful for games outside the "medieval fantasy" milieu:

>http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

>>52351683
>>52351703

No problem. It happens.

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>>52351683
>"Cold" is relative, but heat is not

This spell list has the spell "Screaming Teeth" on it and this is what you're rolling to disbelieve?

Ok. Here's how it works.

All objects have a quantity of heat in them. You can move that heat from one object to another. You seem to be able to make more of it with fire and with rubbing objects together. No one is sure why. It might be a fluid.

The Wizard points one eyeball at a thing that has some amount of heat. They then point another eyeball at another thing that has a different amount of heat. The wizard then brings the two objects together. Heat can now transfer between them. The objects do not physically move, but heat can flow as if they were in direct contact.

Also....

From a real world point of view, I'd like you to explain how you could transfer heat from air to iron and make it sublimate, without also lowering the pressure or doing some other cheat. T is your only variable. Don't be vague.

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>>52337370
Web Tool: Dave's Mapper (https://davesmapper.com/)

I'm Dave, btw. Feedback very welcome. I'm currently unshittifying the mobile version, which you can see at https://beta.davesmapper.com/

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>>52352097
Not bad. Something's awry with frDave's tile set though.

>>52352211
Yeah, he kinda purposely made some tiles that didn't mesh quite right with everything else. One of my other upcoming plans is to be able to select tiles to place instead of just random shuffling, and that might work better with his style.

>>52352342
That'd be handy. It's not a big deal though.

Overally, it's pretty neat.

>>52351808
>It might be a fluid
10-out-of-10 reference.

>but heat can flow as if they were in direct contact.
That's a really handy line. It should be in the spell.

>>52352097
>I'm Dave, btw.
Thanks for your thing!

>Feedback very welcome.
I really like it, but I've often wished you had a "no dupes" option. If I want to use, say, just Dyson Logos' tiles and maybe two-three others' whose style matches, or if I want to use the side views practically at all, I often have to click away a tile several times before getting a non-repeated one.

I mean, I realize this is because there just aren't that many tiles under those constraints and it can get to a point where only the arrangement of the tiles is random if you do it my way, but still.

>>52352097
Added.

>>52352625
Same guy here, I played around with the mapper a bit and remembered another thing that would be nice (or maybe you have it already but I'm too dumb to see it): you've got an option for selecting a tile and building a map entirely out of that artist's tiles; I'd like to have the opposite, a replace-and-exclude-all-tiles-by-this-artist option. Often I remove a tile because I don't think the style meshes well with the rest of the map I'm making, and then I'd like to be able to take that artist out entirely as an option.

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>>52352625
Interesting. Are you creating full new maps each time, or using the 'replace' button/shortcut? I recently rewrote the way the tile data was managed to make the app more efficient, but I may have nerfed the randomization by accident.

>>52352813
Interesting idea! That's gonna be a thinker as far as how to implement that, but it totally makes sense as a feature.

Pic somewhat unrelated - it's the new mobile side menu I'm working on.

>>52352865
>or using the 'replace' button/shortcut
This. Regenerating a full map every time I got a tile I didn't like seems like it would be a huge asspain.

>I may have nerfed the randomization by accident.
I don't think so. It's just that there often aren't that many tiles to choose from in constrained selections. E.g. if you're making a capped side view map using only Dyson's tiles, the same two side tiles will repeat all the way down (and mirror-flipped on one side) because apparently he only drew two non-surface cap tiles, so obviously there won't be a way to achieve more varied results through better randomization.

I'm doing dungeon design and I keep getting caught up on things like "what was this trap constructed to kill?" and "Why does this monster hang out in this dungeon?"

Will being able to answer those questions in a way that's internally consistent actually lead to a more engaging and believable dungeon delve, or am I sweating the small stuff a little too much?

>>52353116
if the dungeon has a kind of 'ecosystem' you can justify almost anything right? like this monster is hanging out here cause it likes to hunt this thing that's here etc.

depends on what the dungeon is, exactly

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>>52353030
> he only drew two non-surface cap tiles

Ah, yeah, there is that issue. Basically, the shuffling gets done as if all the tiles were a deck of cards. So if you end up getting repeats that frequently, it may just be that you've exhausted all the tiles for that set and it got to the end, reshuffled, and started over. Sorry :(

Although this probably isn't the solution you want to hear, Dyson does have a Patreon page and you could probably guilt him into making more tiles of that type if you give him money.

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>>52353116

Dungeons are made to protect things, keep things trapped, or are naturally occurring.

So the monsters in the dungeon may literally be there as a way to contain them. They can't fit through the entrances but they can move around their primary room/lair area. Maybe lesser beings are feeding/worshipping the beast.

Dungeons are also made to protect treasures, so traps and some monsters could be placed there. Later more monsters may move into them. You could also go the legit OSR route and say that dungeons are like mythical, they have traps and doors and oppressive darkness because of metaphysical reasons, they exist on their own terms, not because somebody made them.

Also dungeons can be old wizard towers, cave formations, the insides of a huge beast, etc. Not intentionally made as a dungeon. As could a prison for example. The traps and dangers are added by later inhabitants to kill intruders.

Much in the same way you'd set up little traps in the woods to catch mice if you were trying to survive, it makes sense that kobolds would set up man-catching traps near the entrances to their lairs for the exact same reason.

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Cool thread theme, I'm doing setting stuff right now.

I'm working on my first random encounters table for overland travel. Most of it is animals and monsters, but I've been considering putting a few more mundane and benevolent encounters on there too. Stuff like "Holy men on pilgrimage offer food and proselytize" or "tired Hedge Wizard offers potions in exchange for shelter for the night." Not sure how interested the average player is in those sort of more rp-focused encounters though, I'm pretty new to all this

>>52353116
Start by designing the dungeon with human common sense, then use logical monster ecology a bit further down. Many floors down, don't bother making logical sense with what's going on.

>>52353207
>>52353207
>Sorry :(
Hey man, I didn't mean to complain like that! I get that there's really nothing you can do about it, especially when I opt myself to turn the other tiles off -- I just meant it as an extreme example to illustrate why I didn't think it was an issue with the randomization. In fact, if you shuffle the tiles like a deck of cards so it only repeats on roll-over, I think you're already doing it the best possible way and I might have just overestimated the number of regular flat tiles some of the artists made, and that's why I got repeats. So rather than apologizing, be glad you designed it the way I wanted before I asked!

>Dyson does have a Patreon page and you could probably guilt him into making more tiles of that type if you give him money.
Haha, yeah. I probably should do that, but I'm really reluctant to sign up for shit like Patreon in general -- it would be nice to get though, those side view tiles are cool as fuck.

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I posted earlier about converting LotFP into a more modern 5e Style ruleset earlier for my players who are bored with the constant OSR death.

Can I get some input, feedback, shittalk on what I've got so far?

>>52353417
Oh, cool, no worries. I just didn't want to sound dismissive in case it was legit broken. The app is about five years old and a lot of the stuff I wrote back then could benefit from all the shit I've learned on the job since.

>>52353241
>Much in the same way you'd set up little traps in the woods to catch mice if you were trying to survive, it makes sense that kobolds would set up man-catching traps near the entrances to their lairs for the exact same reason.
This. One of my favorite early traps to use is mantraps that don't trigger if stepped on by a goblin- or halfling-weight creature but will snap shut on a human or dwarf, so the small upper-works humanoids can just hide them in straw and then run right over them, while pursuers get their legs chomped and get stuck. Players hate them and if there are halfling players they enjoy having one up for being small, plus it answers why creatures would trap a passage they traffic heavily. (E.g. rigging a swinging log trap to trigger every time someone opens a door you pass through yourself three times a day is preposterous on the face of it, I often have trouble justifying traps this way but at the same time I feel like it's important at least on the less alien, the-underground-hates-you early levels, so the players feel like they can understand and predict the dungeon with good play)

Rolled 24 (1d100)

>>52350806
>

>>52337503
Ideal Good: Unsuccessful, but well-intention, effort.
Ideal Evil: Blatant dishonesty.

So after 5e's ultra simple +2 through +6 proficiency bonus, and how BECMI gives a +1 through +4 for secondary targets and +2 through +8 for primary targets of weapons, I was thinking it could be neat to simplify hit progression under the umbrella of weapon mastery, and save progression under a similar system.

So it'd be simply ability + class mods. Actually, I'd prefer race + class mods, to distinguish from 5e and de emphasize ability scores. There'd be mostly primary and secondary; nonproficiency would be limited for very rare save categories that normally you get no saving throw against at all and most people don't consider a category for saving throws in any case (like energy drain, perhaps).

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>>52353116
>Will being able to answer those questions in a way that's internally consistent actually lead to a more engaging and believable dungeon delve,

Yes. If the players know what kind of traps to expect and don't constantly go "Wait, what the fuck is this doing here?", the dungeon feels more "true".

There's a ridiculous trap in the Temple of Amber in Curse of Strahd. It's a giant metal box with a lid on the bottom, in a room full of skulls.

The idea is that if you enter the room below the box/skulls and open the hatch in the ceiling, a giant, incredibly heavy metal box falls on you and closes, followed by more skulls.. You then suffocate before your friends dig you out.

If you go in from above, you have to dig through a ton of skulls to find out the box is empty. The trap door might give way while you're digging.

WHY the fuck does this thing exist? Who built it? What's the purpose? Whose skulls? Why is it off in a side passage you have to dig around to find? It's not even guarding anything.

>or am I sweating the small stuff a little too much?

Maybe a bit.

Remember to layer traps too. Ancient temple traps + endemic kobold traps + recent sorcerer traps

Traps aren't always used to kill. They are also for alerting allies. A goblin trap could just be a pile of precariously balanced metal trash. Move it in any way and it falls over, making a hell of a noise, and next turn 2d20 goblins show up with spears and daggers. The goblins put fake gold at the bottom.

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>>52353270
>I'm working on my first random encounters table for overland travel

Post 'em. I could use some "standard" tables. The OSR blogs have /weird/ tables in abundance, but I don't need weird.

What class name do you guys prefer for fighting man: Warrior or Fighter?

>>52353116

My current megadungeon is basically a truly vast underground tunnel, punctuated with more populated complexes on either side of huge fungal, mold, or aquatic caverns.

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>>52356756
Fighter, or simply Fighting Man.

Fighting Man sounds as wonderfully archaic as Magic-User. If you want to run a game that feels ridiculously old school, those terms help.

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>>52356756
Fighting-Man. Goes nicely with Magic-User, Thief-Acrobat, Church-Militant, Tree-Fucker, etc.

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>>52356855
>Fighting-Man. Goes nicely with Magic-User, Thief-Acrobat, Church-Militant, Tree-Fucker, etc.

Vampire-Hunter, Underground-Spook, Item-Smasher...

>>52356756
>>52356844

Might have to try something with fighting man, magic user, thief acrobat, paladin cavalier, ranger archer, and berserker barbarian or barbarian shaman or something.

>>52356954
Call 'em whatever you'd like, as long as they're good and fun.

>>52356932

Wow, a great encounter would be a rival party in a treasure vault full of barbarians destroying all the magic and thieves stealing all the gold. They can let em go. If the thieves are attacked, they scatter immediately, but the barbarians, while tough, are in a superstitious temper tantrum and will ignore what's going on until attacked. So the PCs can peel off only a few at once for an easy encounter, or engage them all at once to save as many items as possible, but have to deal with a big fucking barbarian pile.

>>52356990
Thay does actually sound really interesting.

I have bunch of pals interested in OSR games, but have conflicting schedules.

What would be some good systems for open table games?

>>52357522 c >>52344694 (et al.)

>>52356966
What system does the best, most fun fighting men?

>>52359976
Dungeon Crawl Classics. Awesome attack progression, awesome crits, and mighty deeds of arms. Also d12 hit die.

They're fucking beasts, one of the reasons I love the system so.

What system do you like best for psionics?

>>52360010
>Awesome attack progression
>awesome crits
>Also d12 hit die.
>They're fucking beasts

At the risk of starting a shitstorm, this seems kind of unbalanced for an OSR game.

>>52338343
too many '5th edition' style spells. I don't need another 10 spells that deal damage in a slightly different fluffed way. I also don't super need another 10 'immobilise target' spells based on different stat saves; they're good examples of that design niche, but 'moon lust' and 'oxhold's lament' are fundamentally the same in function as spells out of any default list. I recognise they have different potential for messing around than something like 'hold x' or 'charm x', but they're still fundamentally similar.

Perilous bridge, negasonic ray, compartmentalise mixture, arrow-directing lens (specifically great for battle-map users), thicken air, weighty sphere; these are all way better OSR spells, giving options you don't already have.

>>52360386
The other classes have their own equally unbalanced things.

Thieving skills are a lot easier to pull through and backstabs are super-powerful. Wizards either get unlimited spells per day, or a single encounter-wrecking nuke at great sacrifice and terrible risk. Clerics are still decent in a fight, can heal you completely without much of a fuss (unless your alignment is too different), and their spells are nearly as powerful as the wizards'.

You will need every advantage you can get.

Anyone tried running these?

http://save.vs.totalpartykill.ca/grab-bag/hexenbracken/
http://save.vs.totalpartykill.ca/grab-bag/kraal/
http://save.vs.totalpartykill.ca/grab-bag/wastes/

How did it go? Worth it?

>>52360386
>this seems kind of unbalanced

All that means is when you pull out some bullshit the players can't complain as hard.

>>52360500
But doesn't this change the whole dungeon-crawl dynamic? How is a DM supposed to prepare?

>>52360611
But what if I don't want bullshit?

>>52360692
>But doesn't this change the whole dungeon-crawl dynamic? How is a DM supposed to prepare?

The traps are deadlier and subtler, the enemies more numerous and powerful, puzzles weirder and with higher stakes, and there's usually a powerful wizard in charge as well.

>But what if I don't want bullshit?

At least 40% of all OSR is bullshit. You've got bullshit traps, bullshit cursed items, bullshit monster abilitites... you can't get away from it.

>>52360692
DCC games are more focused around burning fast and bright before getting your shit pushed in by a random table.

>>52360692
>But what if I don't want bullshit?
You'd play a better system than DCC.

>>52360816
What's wrong with DCC?

>>52360770
>The traps are deadlier and subtler, the enemies more numerous and powerful, puzzles weirder and with higher stakes, and there's usually a powerful wizard in charge as well.
But that's all in the modules, I presume? So you'd have to use the modules to make the game work?

>At least 40% of all OSR is bullshit. You've got bullshit traps, bullshit cursed items, bullshit monster abilitites... you can't get away from it.
Not in my games.

>>52360804
So what you're saying is that it's not fitted for campaigns?

>>52360967
>But that's all in the modules, I presume? So you'd have to use the modules to make the game work?

No, you can - and should - apply the exact same stuff in your games. It's not that hard.

>Not in my games.

Then it's not really OSR, is it?

>So what you're saying is that it's not fitted for campaigns?

Again, most OSR isn't.

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>>52360402
Here's the thing; that's fine.

Everyone who reads the list is going to find about 10 different spells that they like. The rest are going to be chaff.

It seems that it's always 10 different spells though.

The "damage-dealing" spells need to be in there because of how the list functions in my system. You roll on it to replace the Orthodox Wizard Spells.

1. Lock
2. Knock
3. Grease
4. Force Field
5. Levitate
6. Magic Missile
7. Feather Fall
8. Sleep
9. Light

If you want to play a battle mage, you'll try to replace all of your spells but Magic Missile, and hope for damage results. If you want to play a utility mage, you'll replace Magic Missile first.

And the damage spells all (I hope) have enough of a twist on them that they can be used outside of combat, or in interesting ways in combat. Turn goblins into a shield wall using Shrikeblast. Burn down a bridge or a library or a building with Roaring Flames. Some other spells damage areas, but include allies as well as enemies, so the Orthodox Wizard will need to do some very OSR-style planning to get the best use of them.

>>52360985
>No, you can - and should - apply the exact same stuff in your games. It's not that hard.
But it's change in the dungeon-crawl dynamic. It doesn't work the same way as old-school D&D. Besides, does the game even come with tools for helping you make these types of dungeons and challenges?

>Then it's not really OSR, is it?
>Again, most OSR isn't.
That's a bizarre statement. You have to agree that DCC sits outside the norm of what most OSR games are like. To call it the standard is just wrong.

>>52361045
>But it's change in the dungeon-crawl dynamic. It doesn't work the same way as old-school D&D.

It's still about sneaking around, finding treasure, playing safe, and suddenly getting fucked over by traps and cursed items. The power level is just different.

>Besides, does the game even come with tools for helping you make these types of dungeons and challenges?

It's full on advice on how to do it right, yes.

>That's a bizarre statement. You have to agree that DCC sits outside the norm of what most OSR games are like. To call it the standard is just wrong.

I don't think I ever said DCC was the standard, but DCC is definitely OSR.

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>>52360545
I've never run them, but they've got ideas worth stealing.

>>52360990
>1490160739642.jpg
Oh! Hey, >>52338796?

Not sure if you saw, but I replied (>>52339820).

>>52361104
Sounds like tournament-style D&D

>>52337370
Anyone here play bare bones 2e?

>>52361263
By "bare bones", you mean just the core books, or everything except Player's Option? Or just no houserules?

>>52361263
I steal a lot of material from setting supplements.

Dark Sun and Al-Qadim in particular have a lot of great content.

>>52345986
I like that suggestion, thank you

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>>52361204
Recognized because of a limerick so stupid it makes me laugh every time. This is a new low.

>Sorcerors would be more in the vein of King Solomon and his 72 djinn.He doesn't really throw magic around, except through the djinn, but he's explicitly a Magic Guy. But the djinn aren't Solomon's Patrons, he's their Patron.

That's an interesting take on the idea. I'm not sure it fits with what I feel the "touchpoints" of Sorcerer are: raw power, lack of control, ambition, and madness

But as a "Summoner" class or something... yeah, I can see Solomon's Army working.

You'd have a list of 72... demons? Spirits? We need a word for them. Demons in most games are corrupting little shits, but these things are more like... trained spirits, with minimal wills of their own. Who wants to play a class called "I Summon Evil Spirits That Ruin Everything Because They Disobey Me or Twist My Words"? Nobody.

So you've got a list of them. They go:

5. Batamul. A blue-grey ox the size of a mouse. Can run faster than an arrow. Knows the age and marital status of any creature it sees.

Shit like that.

And you summon them. Even at max level you won't have all 72, just like your wizard will never know /all/ the spells, but you'll have a bunch. Like 10 or 15.

You can summon ones that will fight for you, ones that will fly around, ones that will teach you, ones that will duplicate your form and attend boring meetings for you, etc. They are all really weird looking.

Thoughts?

>>52361269
Pretty much yeah.
I prefer 2e since it is really just a simplified version of 1e.

>>52361351
>"You mean X or Y?"
>Yes.

Well, that cleared up a lot of stuff.

Anyway, I prefer 2e for pretty much the same reason as well. 1e is all the OD&D stuff put together and standardized somewhat, 2e is the same refined with a whole bunch of options (kits!) added. So it's pretty great.

>>52361303
>You'd have a list of 72... demons? Spirits?
Not to crimp into your mechanics, but neither of those a good descriptions of djinn.
If you go back far enough djinn are underworld boogeymen, but "traditional" djinn are not.
They live out on the desert, at day (the spooky time in the desert) and they're semi-magical, but they're mortals.

Most are assholes, though they can get into heaven through piety just like a human.

On a very interesting sidenote, ghouls were originally a class of djinn.

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>>52361504
No need to be patronizing. The desert spirits that were co-oped into the "smokeless fire" Djinn are very, very different from the Demons of classical Christian thought, but that's... not really relevant to this discussion. Most of the tales of Solomon have him firmly in the "binding evil to do his bidding" camp.

Anyway, it's a moot point, since the whole lot of it was made up anyway.

If you want to have Djinn in your games, they're just another type of person with a few weird abilities.

>>52361303
>Thoughts?
I really like it. I've had trouble with summoner classes before but I think that this works well with D&D's fictional-positioning challenges. I also think that it's pretty important that the demons have interesting abilities rather than obviously helpful. Like, a demon that fights well isn't as interesting as a demon that fights well in moonlight, heals well in sunlight, and sings well in firelight, or something.

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>>52361654
Yeah, I think stealing some of the ideas from here: http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2015/07/angels.html

And the Ideals from here: >>52337503

Would add an interesting twist to any generic "You summon a celestial tiger-horse" spells. And absolutely, some of the summons should have environmental conditions on them.

While we're near this topic, I like how the Ifrit in "The Fisherman and the Jinni" was unable to melt a wax stopper.

>>52361699
It's /wax/ anon. Do you have any idea how hard wax is? It's like adamantium!

What do you mean, "We made a deal with bees?"

You made a deal with /bees/?!? FUCK! I'm going to be stuck in here forever.

Does anyone have a table for rolling adjective words to describe stuff? Like "Dark+woods", "Misty+island" etc.

>>52361106
>pic
Is that reconstruction art of real fortifications? If so, where was that?

>>52362606

Google image search turned this up for me:

http://lamus-dworski.tumblr.com/post/84055819766/gniezno-is-one-of-the-most-important

>Gniezno is one of the most important archaeological sites concerning the early history of Poland and the capital of the first Polish Archdiocese during the Piast dynasty’s state.

Is it possible to do OSR in a Planescape game? What kind of dungeon crawls would you have in there? What sort of traps, what manner of monsters to avoid, and loot to grab?

>>52362725
But 2e is OSR

>>52363050
2e kind of already skirts the line to be honest.

>>52362725
I'd say yeah, it's totally doable. There are lots of funky monsters in the planes, and the plane of Pandemonium is like one big dungeon. The PCs can set up shop in Sigil and adventure out into the multiverse for fun and profit.

Do you prefer 1e or 2e dragons? Do you like to throw them around on early levels, or would you rather save them as late-level world-shaking threats?

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>>52363849
Normal dragons should be like the wyrms of later D&D editions. Powerful, but on a "village-eating" scale.

Primordial Dragons, or Dragons with a capital D, are proper world-shaking threats.

Then again, most OSR games aren't about stopping world-shaking threats. They're about small-scale looting and building actions.

>>52360990
Yeah, I guess that's right.

>>52361303
Perdition's Sorceror class is basically this. Perdition is in the trove, (or was, in the inbox) - the list of demons it summons is inventive and varied, but the individual demons are a bit strong.

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New to LOTFP. Bought the player core book. What else should I get.

>>52360985
You can run a campaign as easy enough, just things are liable to get considerably crazier and messier by the end. I'd recommend just taking a look at the core rules to get a decent idea of the tone and style of play.

>>52365370
Everything

But if you can't do that:
Death Frost Doom
Vornheim
World of the Lost
Scenic Dunnsmouth
Broodmother Skyfortress
A Red & Pleasant Land
Carcosa

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HAHAHA What is it you seek?

>>52363849
What's the difference.

>>52365370
That's all you really need. Just pirate the modules, they're all fairly overrated anyways.

>>52365530
2e dragons are fucking invincible monsters, that's what.

>>52365491
I seek the ability to breathe underwater.

>>52365491
The finest cowardice in all the land.

>>52365370
>>52365454
What's so great about LotFP anyway? All I've seen or heard is guro artwork, torture porn modules with no good outcomes in them, and of course all the horrible shit about Raggi himself.

But a lot of folks seem to play the game a lot in here, so there has to be some merit to it.

>>52365857
Many of the modules are good, and even the edgy ones often have original ideas worth stealing. I'm not sure what you've heard about Raggi, but while he's an edgelord, he doesn't seem like a bad person to me. I'm personally not a huge fan of the system itself, but it's mostly just a B/X clone with some houserules, which you can freely mix and match with rules from similar systems if you don't like them.

>>52365857
They usually show another style of adventure than what has become standard in the fantasy rpg genre. To me that translates into cool shit that expands me and my player's minds regarding what can be done with D&D, but to some others it's just crap that serves no purpose. The stuff about LotFP only being gore and torture porn is a Something Awful meme and I dare you to find any actual evidence of Raggi doing horrible shit.

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>>52365354
Cool, thanks.

>>52365491
>HAHAHA What is it you seek?

My leg back. :(

>>52365857
the vitriol LOTFP gets is overblown and hyperbolic imo. Raggi can be sophomoric with his humor and attitude. (Doom Cave of the Crystalheaded Children was created because of complaining that you could end fighting children in a module "child killing" as a random encounter in a previous modulejust remove it as an option if you don't want to fight them imo and some people just have trouble separating the work from their creator.

Death Love Doom is the only one I feel really lives up to the edgy reputation it gets and that's more showing the after effects of horrible magic mutilating and destroying people.

Fuck For Satan is just a dumb crass joke he probably made for a laugh and some dosh.

the crunch is solid, simple, and even elegant in some rules
it has a very different tone and look from most of its OSR contemporaries
he puts money into art and production values, (I bet he's good boss/commissioner for artists)

some of the modules have really interesting and unique ideas or premises. God That Crawls, Death Frost Doom, and Better Than Any Man come mind for me.

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>>52365857

The rules are not unlike B/X but well done and maybe not what you would expect from the artwork.

The optional rules for firearms in the appendix are a nice touch if you like musketeers or pirates.

Can't find any magical items or monsters in the rule book tho.

>>52366328
I recall him saying he doesn't like +1 swords and he prefers magic items being weird and dangerous.

I remember him saying the mirror from Occulus was to his liking as a lotfp magic item

>>52366578
>I recall him saying he doesn't like +1 swords and he prefers magic items being weird and dangerous.

Well, is anyone here actually going to disagree with that? Because it makes perfect sense.

>>52366642
Depends on the game desu.

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Does anyone out there have good art of prismatic / illusionist wizards? I need something properly garish.

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>>52367017
That reminds me. What system has the best Illusionist? I've been iffy on the class but now I feel drawn to it as of late.

>>52367660
2e.

It has seven other cool specialist wizards too.

Is it possible to roll 6 18s

>>52368513
Yes.

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>>52368513
Odds are pretty close to a literal one in a million.

>>52368569
"As an idea of how lucky that is, rolling a 6 on one dice is 1/6 chance. Rolling an 18 (6's on 3 dice) is 1/216. Rolling that six times, so 6's on 18 dice, is 1/101,559,956,668,416.

Rolling at 1 re-roll a second you would expect perfect 18s to turn up once in 28211099074.6 hours on average. I make that 3218240.825 years at 365.25 days a year.

So sure you could roll it, but it would take an average of 3.2 million years. Imagine the frustration when you notice it just as you click re-roll. "

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What's a good way to handle fighting really big things? I don't really want it to be just about hacking away at this brute with a lot of hit points.

>>52368745
Split it into a lot of smaller parts with their own attacks and hit points. Two feet for stomping, two hands for smashing, and the party can attack any of them.

>>52367682
>ad&d

Eh.

>>52368684

Odds go up if you're doing 4d6 drop the lowest. But still pretty remote. (Says the guy who rolled a character with 3 18s, a 17, a 16 and like a 12 or something in High School one time.)

>>52369116
That's nothing! I once got 3 3s, a 4, and 2 5s.

>>52361303
>Thoughts?
I really like this system, first summoning-based system I could possibly get behind. Gate and similar tardery that makes standard monsters/combat demons appear just don't seem to be possibly balanced. I mean guess Gate gets a pass because it's a level 9 Ultimate Cosmic Power spell, like Wish, but...

>>52361699
I realize you're joking, but it's not the wax, it's the Seal of Solomon cut into the stopper that leaves the Jinn powerless. (Also, going by Burton the stopper was lead http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/burt1k1/tale02.htm not that that makes much difference)

>>52362647
Thanks, brodanks!

My brother and I want to play AD&D 1e, so should I try to get all of the AD&D books that we need to play or just play OSRIC? Is there much of a difference?

>>52369269
>should I try to get all of the AD&D books that we need to play
Yes.

>or just play OSRIC?
Jesus, no.

>Is there much of a difference?
Yes, son of a god damn hell bitch yes. OSRIC literally wasn't even written to be read. I mean sure, some peopel in here will shittalk the organization of AD&D and yeah, it's not great, but compared to OSRIC it's a fucking shining beacon of perfection.

Plus reading the DMG is fun as shit.

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>>52367660
Thanks anon.

As for "which system has the best Illusionist" I'd say "the one I'm writing up now", but honestly... I'm not that convinced.

>>52369269
>My brother and I want to play AD&D 1e

First off be sure you want to deal with AD&D, when Basic is just as authentic for the time period and a lot easier to play and run. Moldvay/Cook (aka B/X) is the best D&D TSR ever put out IMO.

>>52369407
Don't listen to this nigger, AD&D is true glory.

>>52367660
I'm partial to the Illusionist from The Goblin Laws of Gaming.

>>52369419

Go to bed, Gary Gygax's ghost! Nobody needs that many polearms!

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>>52369407
>>52369419
Guys, guys.

It's literally a matter of opinion. It might be exactly what you need. It might be completely useless.

>>52369269
Anon, what about AD&D is appealing?

What elements are you trying to reveal and use?

Once we know what you're trying to do, anons might have other system recommendations that can target exactly what you need, without AD&D's eccentricities. Alternatively, it might turn out that AD&D is perfect for you and your group.

>>52369419
AD&D Second Edition you mean

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>>52369460
That's the one I'm stealing...

So yay?

I mean, I already stole Arnold's Elementalist:

This: http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2014/07/elementalist-wizards.html

Became:
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-elementalist-wizards.html
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-what-does-elemental-want.html
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-nature-and-lives-of-elementals.html

I changed it up quite a bit and made it fit the proper GLOG format. And I hope I also wrote a damn fine elemental system.

I'm hoping to do the same with Illusionists and light. Light has 8 colours (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, and octarine). Other "radiative effusions" such as darkness, strong emotions, and holiness also have spectrums, though that's more acadamic and needs another post to deal with.

There is also the issue of mirrors being gates to other dimensions.

>>52369493

We're interested in that "raw" old school experience and "aesthetic," mostly. We're interested in old-school dungeon crawing and looting instead of high fantasy heroics. We also enjoy the old-school mechanics that a lot of people hate like THAC0.

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>>52369585
Ok, if THAC0 is fine by you and you're going for the "raw" experience... sure, AD&D is going to work very well.

You can get all the books from the PDF trove linked upthread, as well as by a casual google search. I'd say give them a skim and see if they contain stuff you're interested in using. You don't "need" any of them though.

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hmn
really makes me think

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>>52371043
What did who mean by this?

Other than "I bet people will argue about this until the heat death of the universe."

>>52371043
>Elf men are 5'1" to 5'6" tall
>Elf women are 1" to 4" tall
This is some real disturbing magical realm here

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>>52371115
I could actually see some heated arguments about an Elf Clan Wizardess (male) getting unicorn flunkies and amazon kits because the rules say "treated as females in all respects"

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>>52371252
Don't go to /a/

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>>52371253
I'd allow it. It makes total sense.

They also have to get married. To men.

Solves at least one problem rather neatly. And everyone's happy.

>>52371396
I screencapped this post and replied to the guy who posted it and said something like "Did you want to be a fireman or a doctor when you were a kid? Did you want to go out and change the world? Did you dream of being a good person, the kind of person your father - or an ideal father - would want you to be?"

They... might have quit /tg/.

I'm not really sorry.

>>52337370
Lankhmar

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>>52371252
>This is some real disturbing magical realm here
Nah, it's only humans who are weird.

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Other than Light, Darkness, Life, Unlife, and Strong Emotions, what other things radiate?

Light is fairly obvious. Darkness radiates from everything, by default, but some objects radiate more than others. Living creatures radiate life, which reflects off Un-Life and returns to the mind as sensations of horror and dread. Un-Life radiates un-life, which reflects off life and creates sensations of hunger and hatred in the un-living. This explains how one might Detect Life or Detect Unlife. They glow.

Strong Emotions radiate as well. You can broadcast hatred or love or fear, though without training and special preparation, it won't affect much.

What else radiates?

>>52373293
Every part of your post is cancer.
Heat radiates. Wisdom too, if you're lecturing.

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>>52373332
Why? How the hell am I supposed to figure out how mirrors and illusions work if I don't know how light works.

I've defined heat as "a kind of red" or possibly "a kind of violet too". It's not well understood. There's no reason for it to transfer by contact as well. The alchemists are temporarily stumped.

Wisdom seems like an excellent idea, and why Illusionists are so damn smug all the time. They're doing the world a favour by existing and broadcasting Wisdom.

>>52373383
I thought illusionists tended, harvested, and distributed madness?
Like, asylums under their towers. And all that.

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>>52373419
Nah. Illusionists use semi-sentient spells that can bend light to imitate reality. There's not a lot of mind-magic involved.

Although... madness-Wizards is a neat idea.

Is the whole madness/asylum thing for Illusionists "canon", or otherwise common knowledge?

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What would you guys say about letting players dual-class gaining the best of both world and adding the exp requirement for next level for ech class?

Ex Fighter / Magic-user
Can use all weapons, armor, hit die and attack bonus as a fighter but gains the ability to cast spells and can do it while wearing armor like a mage.

To reach level to he needs to gain exp for both classes combined (2000 Fighter) (2500 Magic) for a total of 4500 exp to reach level 2.

Does that sound like a fair compromise?

>>52373662
Just use the variant elf. Refluff it, of course.

>>52373662
You just described the Elf from B/X with an additional 500XP requirement.

>>52373799
I havent read BX, playing BFRPG atm.

>>52373450
>not a lot of mind-magic
>Illusion/Phantasm

Phantasm spells don't bend light, they create the illusion in the recipient's mind

>>52372057
>censoring Oglaf

Get the fuck out

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>>52373799
>>52373866
It's worth mentioning that the elf from B/X is overly powerful, except for a bit in the starting levels, when lagging a level behind is a huge fucking deal.

>>52373866
BFRPG already has multiclassing rules, check the races or classes section, forgot which.

>>52374387
Those pretty much are the multiclassing rules from BFRPG, only with better hit dice for the fighter/magic-user (which is the only multiclass option it specifically discusses). This is the entire section on multiclassing, unless there's another version of BFRPG with more shit in it:

>Combination Classes
>To become a member of a combination class, a character must meet the requirements of both classes. Combination class characters use the best attack bonus and the best saving throw values of their original two classes. One combination class is mentioned in the Elf racial description:

>Fighter/Magic-User: These characters may both fight and cast magic spells; further, they are allowed to cast magic spells while wearing armor. A Fighter/Magic-User must gain experience equal to the combined requirements of both base classes. Elven Fighter/Magic-Users roll six-sided dice (d6) for hit points.

>>52374425
That seems to be from an older version. I'll paste the new rules, it's still pretty short.

>Combination Classes
>To become a member of a combination class, a character must meet the requirements of both classes. Combination class characters use the best attack bonus and the best saving throw values of their original two classes, but must gain experience equal to the combined requirements of both base classes to advance in levels. Elves are the only characters eligible to be a member of one of these combination classes:

>Fighter/Magic-User: These characters may both fight and cast magic spells; further, they are allowed to cast magic spells while wearing armor. These characters roll six-sided dice (d6) for hit points.

>Magic-User/Thief: Members of this combination class may cast spells while wearing leather armor, and may use any weapon. These characters roll four-sided dice (d4) for hit points.

>>52373934
The elf is nerfed beyond any meaning. Yes, it's decent at 1st level, but it becomes a massive drag for the party after they reach a couple of levels.
At some point they become a weird mid point, where they don't have the hp to be in combat (with the level-appropiate enemies the party is now facing), or the spells to be the glass cannon.

That's game balance for you (even if a bit solomonic).

>>52374585
>or the spells to be the glass cannon.
Horse pucky. It's not until 10th level that elves are a full level behind magic-users in B/X. From 40,000-79,999 Magic-Users are level 6 and have spells of 2/2/2. For the 1st 24k of that, elves are a level behind, with 2/2/1. For the remaining 16k of that, elves are the exact same level with the exact same spells... plus platemail armor... plus d6 hit points... plus the ability to use shields and any weapons, and not just d4 damage daggers and staves... plus infravision... plus slightly better saving throws -- and only slightly better because elves are at the end of one saving throw level-group (levels 4-6), while magic-users just got into a new one (levels 6-10). Similarly, though their chances to-hit overlap at level 6, but at levels 4-5, and 7 up, elves have a better to-hit.

>>52374754
Read again. You get d6 hp PER LEVEL. And you advance twice as slow. The 4th level party faces 4HD critters regularly while you are 2th level (if you didn't skip a session or got level-drained...).
Infravision means jack shit unless all the party has it, AND your dungeons are 100% dark.
The slightly better saves are ok, I guess. Not a big deal, it's like a 10% or so.
Inmunity to ghoul's paralysis souds like a inside joke, I never remember to use that rule.

The only way to have an OP elf is giving the fucker magic items, specially swords generated btb. Just don't, they are +1boring anyway.

>>52374856
>And you advance twice as slow
No, you don't. Because each level requires roughly twice as many XP as the one before it, a class that takes twice as many XP to level will be only 1 level behind. Look at the XP progression in B/X and you'll see that my figures work out. 40% of the time that magic-users are at 6th level, so are elves. The remaining 60% of the time, elves are at 5th level.

>>52374856
>>52374892
To get to 10th level, an elf needs 600k XP, the exact amount that a magic-user needs to get to 11th level.

What are the best rules/ideas from AD&D (or any other game really) that you would import into a Basic D&D game?

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>>52375016

>>52375595
AD&D's expansive magic item tables are pretty sweet.

>>52375595
Kits, most monster races, a good chunk of the spells, weapon mastery, class-specific experience awards, and as >>52375734 said, all the magic items.

Pop open Encyclopedia Magica. It's got -all- the shit from every single version of D&D up to 2e, from all the modules and supplements and all the Dragon Magazines.

Mind, most of these options will make the player characters considerably more powerful. Be ready to up the opposition as well.

Since magic items are considerably more rare in OSR, usually randomly dropped in dungeons, never shopped for in city markets, and a great deal more powerful and significant by comparison, I've been considering basing entire quests around the magic items.

What manner of weird adventures would the PCs need to go through in order to find, say, Robe of the Archmagi or Gauntlets of Ogre Power?

>>52375960
Robes of Archmagi: A magical cult is holding the ascension ritual for their new Archmagi as the moons align. Internally they are divided between several factions who vie for control of the ritual ingredients and otherwise stab each other in the back to become archmagi. Externally the daemon that granted the 1st archmagi the robes has come back to take its half of the fell bargain. The players are trying to sneak in to steal the robes, back their favourite as the cult head, take their magical loot while they're distracted, plant a warped soulstone in the ritual chalice to corrupt the wizard, etc. Make a tower, put all kinds of weird wizard shit in it, have a festival/carnival through the tower.

>>52375960
>>52376432
>An ancient wizard is guarding several wardrobe's worth of robes
>The party and the BBEG both reach it around the same time, possibly being forced to help one another to get there
>The BBEG tries one of the robes
>It's of the wrong alignment
>"He chose... poorly."

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>>52376454
Huh, kind of want magical robe Drag Race now. Pretty fab.

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>>52373925
Still a blue board, anon. Can't have kids getting the wrong idea about nipples.

>>52373891
Again, that seems to be up for debate. You can create an illusory wall. It exists without people looking at it. When people look at it, how do they know what sort of wall it is?

>>52375960
>Robe of the Archmagi
Robes of the Archmagi are a literal bottom-of-the-megadungeon tier prize, IIRC a Staff of Wizardry was the prize loot of the bottom level of Greyhawk Castle. I wouldn't permit the PCs to "go on a quest for" that kind of object any more than I'd let them buy it. (On this general topic, I feel like one problem the magic-item lists have is for some reason they tend to give people the idea there are many of each magic item, rather than almost everything powerful being one-of-a-kind)

>or Gauntlets of Ogre Power
You must find an ogre or giant smith to create the particular gauntlets required, then an Ogre-Magus to voluntarily imbue these gauntlets with the power of an ogre. (If you try to force him, or if he cheats you, they'll just come out cursed, as Gauntlets of Kobold Weakness.)

Alternate considering these and Girdles of Giant Strength are a generic version of the gloves and belt Thor needs to be able to handle Mjolnir: Dwarf master smiths make them, but as everyone knows, Dwarfs are conniving, untrustworthy creatures so you have to figure out how to cheat them, or play on their pride to rope them into a bet, or similar, in order to not get fucked over.

>>52376432
>their new Archmagi
>the 1st archmagi
Anon, "magi" is a plural. It's "the first archmagus". Robes of the Archmagi are called that because it's assumed there's one archmagus and one robe for each alignment.

>>52377132
>c. 1200, "skilled magicians, astrologers," from Latin magi, plural of magus "magician, learned magician," from Greek magos, a word used for the Persian learned and priestly class as portrayed in the Bible (said by ancient historians to have been originally the name of a Median tribe), from Old Persian magush "magician" (see magic). Related: Magian.

neat

Is interesting and compelling treasure really worth it? I've been trying to turn the piles of copper and silver coins into strange and detailed art objects for several years now, but it never tends to get any impression from anyone and they usually just forget about them. If anything it tends to bog the game down, but at the same time, just gold coins and shit is boring.

On a somewhat related note, I'm about to run a fairly basic dungeon crawl to my party, and there's two hobgoblins in a room with 500 gold pieces each. This seems a little much in my mind, and also kind of boring - but at the same time, for the reasons stated above, changing them to weird shit might just be ignored anyway. So what to do with it?

>>52377315
>Isiris
>Horon
I begin to suspect a shit imagination desu

I convert all treasure to gold, and say something like 'coins, gems and silk worth 500g, plus a fine painting of something'. They have cash, and something to take to leave behind OR carry+appraise+sell (aka a hook).

I do simplified encumbrance, where just picking up *any* treasure slows you down to the next movement rate.

Other than that, I invest energy in making usable treasure, rather than 'interesting' (I feel like you mean description-interesting, not gameplay-interesting).
Not gold coins, but gold coins mixed with shurikens, a poisoned dagger and a (fake) treasure map.

>>52377456
If your players don't appreciate it, there's no sense putting a lot of work into detailed art objects. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with putting *some* work into such things, even if you're the only one it entertains. Maybe you could just reduce things to something like: "jewelry and works of art totaling 325 gp in value" and then give a quick mention of a few things there: "a silver comb with one of the tines broken, a gold brooch pin in the shape of a falcon...." The players don't have to sweat the details, but the quick mention of what's there will add atmosphere, and will probably enhance your players' experiences, even if they don't think they care about such things. And yeah, instantly knowing exactly how much shit is worth is unrealistic, but if it makes the game easier and more fun for people, that's a good trade-off. You can even treat everything like it's gold pieces for the sake of encumbrance and so forth, making the mention of jewelry and art merely aesthetic.

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Is there any system for spell duels beyond DCC's?

>>52377700
The Complete Sha'ir's Handbook, Al-Qadim.

Related - is there any system for physical duels, beyond Player's Option C&T?

>>52377552
>I begin to suspect a shit imagination
Herculon and Poseides might have something to say about that.

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Running a hexcrawl and I need some constructive criticism of this map. Going with a 12ft hex scale. Running a westmarch style campaign with one well fortified settlement.

>>52377700
-secretly declare action, select target, etc
-roll initiative
-reveal & resolve, using strict combat phases
-have a magical crit/fumble/side fx table handy
aka refluffed normal combat

>>52378021
But what would their to-hit and AC be?

>>52378014
So the settlement is 12 feet across?

>>52378140
No, but major points of interest such as settlements or visible landmarks will be represented by icons.

>>52378140
>>52378014
Herp, 12 miles, sorry.

>>52378014
I like this map, very readable even at a small size - a bit videogamey, tho, you might want to add some random/arbitrary difficulty here and there

>>52378125
???
9 or 11? Unless they got themselves a magical +1 wizard robe or something?
I don't undestand - do your spells use attack rolls?

Any Birthright fans here? Have you ever combined BR with other settings?

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>>52378214
My biggest concern is that if a map is too naturalistic, it might be more difficult to compartmentalize terrain (especially unclaimed wilderness) so instead I opted for limited biomes. What kind of hex map works the best for this kind of thing anyway?

>>52378305
BR doesn't really do mass combat very well. I know it's a little heretical to say on OSRG, but I love this method for mass combat https://youtu.be/OW55vC7bQtM

and the Pathfinder Kingmaker system for Kingdom management.

>>52373934
The best comparison for the elf isn't the magic user, but the cleric.

>>52378353
Oh, I was gonna use the system for converting BR units to Battlesystem units.

>>52378353
But he didn't explain anything!

>Massive battles are bad because it's your guy killing like fifteen guys
>And zooming out is also bad because then it's a strategy game
>Okay here's some bullshit flowchart I made that basically forces the places to pick between two options and then four options and still probably fail
>Btw I won't mention how the actual fighting that now takes place at the gate to stop the battering ram is any different than your guy killing 15 guys aside from the motivation behind it

Nnnnnnnyehhhhhhhhh

>>52378214
>I don't undestand - do your spells use attack rolls?
I mean, you were the one who proposed using strict combat phases, refluffed normal combat, crits and fumbles. How was I supposed to know that all of that should be done without any attack rolls?

>>52378484
>>52378353
I don't know why he mentioned Warhammer in the second category. Warhammer really is a category one type "each dude rolls one die per attack and then damage," in fact WH adds 50% more rolling (at least) than D&D, and D&D works fine with average results besides.

>>52378513
What system are you using?
In B/X, spells are declared before initiative. It goes like:
-movement
-ranged attacks
-spells
-melee attacks

Dueling wizards declare what they do, and it happens in that order. A tie in initiative means both act at the same time, but still using that action-order.
This allows a lot of tactics, since you can move to avoid the spell, throw a knife to interrupt the other, move behind cover, close in and shank, etc etc etc et

Spells don't have attacks rolls, but the target can save (sometimes).

The effect table is for you, the DM, to embellish what's going on, just like you'd refluff any attack roll.
"I zap the fucker with my most powerful spell, Lightning bolt!"
"Marcaxas the Red is chating arcane words too, and doing a retarded arcane dance!"
"The magicks zap across the room, describing a sparkling zig-zag, walls are turning mermelade where the rays touch them"
*roll a save, success* "Marcaxas' creates a bright force-filed that deflects your spell, and after a few seconds his figure can be seen again, surrounded by small chips of stone, debris and blood drops, all suspended like in zero-grav; the fucker smiles"
etc etc

aka refluffed NORMAL, RAW, btb combat