Arms and Armors

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Does anyone have some earlier medieval stuff? Like, 800-1000s kind of stuff.

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>>52328383

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>>52328484

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>>52328383

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>>52328575

>>52328860
Thanks senpai.

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>>52328918
Also have a spangenhelm, not really early medieval but still

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>>52328918

>>52328974
Tight!

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HAHA I am scanning it. Read it recently and it's easily on par with Oriental Armour as far as introductory texts go.

Also reminded me that we had some dude sperg out over dagger axes here a couple of years ago. Dropped a whole essay on the then-current status of research on us.

There was a great photodump on /k/ of the Styrian Armory collection, some years back. Would have been great to post if I had it.

>>52329527
Man, I can't for the life of me recall if photographing was even allowed in there. Either way, no way to get any good shot outta that place without a flash.

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>>52330242

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>>52330264

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>>52330284
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Z6Aez6T3c

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>>52330301

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>>52328383

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>>52330333

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>>52330333

>>52328512
ah, awesome. that's painted on a wall in the reichsmuseum in amsterdam.

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>>52328273
Were lances and spears used by cavalry ever used two-handed or was that ineffective, causing a one-handed style to only ever be used?

>>52333160
the opposite, they were two handed for a long time

>>52333250
That's interesting to know. I wonder what caused the shift to use with spears. I have another question, could heavy lances be used outside of charging or would they only be useful on the charge and the wielders would drop them and draw hand weapons after the initial attack?

I think my arms & armor folders have more images combined than my porn folders.

I think I may have a problem.

>>52329191
Upload it as a pdf if possible, thanks.

Also try to get a hold of "Classical Weaponry of Japan", by Serge Mol.

I'd have scanned it myself, but mine was on loan from a library that was super autistic about damage, and I didn't want to accidentally rip it and have to pay out the ass.

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Anyone know what time in history clownfag's helmet is from?

>>52334829
That's odd, but looks very mid-1400s to my eyes.

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>>52334829
early 21st century Scadian.

I think its meant to be bellows-faced sallet of circa 1495 to 1520, but frankly, its a bit shit. its got the beak for an armet, without any of an actual armet's construction methods. most bellows sallets didnt have that. there's one or two shitty repros out there of visored sallets which have the beak, but I've yet to see a reliable original.

the closest might the trevanion sallet - sadly we dont have much information about that one, as it was stolen from its storage place in the mid-20th C, and never found.

In all, its really a pretty shitty helmet, which has been pimped with some feathers to try to stop people noticing its a bit shit.

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>>52328273
Does it matter what era it's from?

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>>52335215
Ah, it was odd then.

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>>52333540
The lances were made to be huge to overcome the reach advantage that foot spearmen and pikemen had. They got to be cumbersome and unwieldy. If you ended up off your horse or in the thick of combat still on your mount... that shit was worthless. A good mace or sword would be much better for that. As pikemen fell out of style in most places in favor of various ethnic styles of warfare, the two handed pikes were not needed to overcome the reach advantage. I would want a small shield because fuck getting slammed with arrows, javelins, darts, stones, lead pellets, and whatever else the rabble launch at me

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>>52335215
God damn you're a salty cunt.

Its a (admittedly slightly modified for ACL/HMB) rendition of a sallet by Matthes Deutsch of Landshut, between 1485–1505. Pic related.

Cry more.

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>>52333160
The 14th century "Kitab al-Furusiyya va'l-Baytara" mentions a few different styles of holding you lance while on horseback, four IIRC, with only one being the couched and single hardened way we're used to, the others being with both hands.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/f12sdndb7k5tqtd/Munyatul_Guzat.pdf

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The weapon that George Silver, famous English swordsmaster and hater of rapiers, most admired: the Welch Hook, aka Forest Bill, a type of billhook. I'll post a couple more since I feel like Britfagging.

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>>52334829
>>52335215
>>52335270
It was one of the cornerstones of the Met's authentication programs. There was years of back and forth between confirmation of it being an authentic original, and it being a Victorian "frankenhelm" before modern metallurgical research solved the enigma. .

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>>52335399

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>>52335475

>>52335215
>>52335362
>>52335454
I think Gropey wins this one.

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>>52335454
>It was one of the cornerstones of the Met's authentication programs

that'll be Bashford "cut up 14th C harness parts to make a frankensuit" Dean's work, that needed an authentication programme because LaRocca and Breidling couldnt take it any longer having to deal with the monumental cockups he made?

>>52335362
"admittedly slightly modified"

slightly?
the beak is about twice as long as it should be and throws the proportions of the whole thing off, the reinforce is too wide, the pivot point is too far back and the proportions of the visor side parts is a mess.

who the hell was the armourer? Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, or Helen Keller?

>>52335399
>>52335475
>>52335499
Per usual billhook form they're ugly as fuck

>>52335362
> of a sallet by Matthes Deutsch of Landshut

the only part of that composite harness that's marked as by Matthes Deutsch is the right pauldron/spaulder.

its got italian couters with german besagews and spaulders, italian legs, with german tassets. God alone knows what the standard was from.

.

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>>52335624
The changes in dimensions was to accommodate the required coverage of the helm and locking systems for ACL/IMC/HMB rule sets, while still being fit to the dimensions of my head and neck, as well as my stereotypical Italian nose. I also have a perf plate visor for fencing, and a more accurate visor with shorter beak for historic event uses. Also, the picture isn't a great angle. Here is one more profile look.

>>52335730
The metallurgical composition, as well as the general stylistic workmanship have been in recent years, attached to Matthes, and yes there are both Italian styled (though domestically produced) and imported pieces in that particular harness, but that doesn't bother me at all because that is quite normal for the period and region. I am not remaking that particular harness, and just liked the helm, which is indeed documentable to the period and region of the rest of my kit.

>>52335730
I was under the impression that German and Italian armor was pretty incestuous.

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>>52329527
Might be my pics you're thinking of.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/hcc9tc2dtgskzt9/Austria_-_Landzeughaus_Graz.rar

>>52330035
Some bits got rather dark, but overall it wasn't so bad.

>>52335904
Very much so. South German and North Italian armor is hard to tell apart.

>>52335904
Bolonga has the best beer in Italy and the best pasta in Germany

>>52335968
>Bolonga has the best beer in Italy and the best pasta in Germany
Stealing this.

>>52335968
That's a load of bologna.

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>>52336019
>Stealing this.
Found the Sicilian.

>>52336058
*Rimshot*

Taking dump requests.

>>52335624
>>52335454
>It was one of the cornerstones of the Met's authentication programs

>that'll be Bashford "cut up 14th C harness parts to make a frankensuit" Dean's work, that needed an authentication programme because LaRocca and Breidling couldnt take it any longer having to deal with the monumental cockups he made?

I need to know more please.

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post ur fav helmet type!

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>>52336182
Forever and ever.

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>>52336165
I am not 100% clear on the whos and whats before the program, but Brashford Dean was a one-man wrecking ball when it came to cannibalizing or modifying historic artifact in the worst ways, for the sake of aesthetics or display. Scrubbing off paint, gilding and bluing to cater to the popculture ideal of the "knight in shining armour" is the least of his crimes.

>>52336182
>>52336232
Sallet is king, though barbutes are welcome too.

>>52336280
>Scrubbing off paint, gilding and bluing to cater to the popculture ideal of the "knight in shining armour"
You triggered me, good sir.

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>>52335399
I thought this was a Welsh Hook.

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>>52336182
Give me a sallet(preferably painted) any day, there's something beautiful about the curves and visor shape

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>>52336232
This. Armet takes the honorable second place.

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>>52336323
he also had a habit of chopping up pieces of original armour to fit together into "complete" harnesses.

ie, taking a fauld that he'd got from one source, and punching new holes in it to fit it to a different breast. taking one half of a bevor, cutting it back, so another part from another bevor could be fitted together, and make it "complete".

this harness, for instance, is probably made up for parts from in excess of 10 different harnesses - the helmet's one piece (I think), but the brigandine/coat of places is utterly non-functional, with a huge number of fuckups and plates that are locked and immobile.

arms and legs are cobbled together from multiple parts too

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>>52336411
Black sallets get my dick hard.

>>52336492
>mount and blade fashion

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>>52336500
as they should

Brigandines tended to be worn in combination with mail shirts and gambesons. Of the three, which one was the most protective?

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>>52336564
brigandines. They form a near solid breastplate, though they aren't as good as a solid one

It's best to wear all three, but you could make due without the mail shirt. Only the poorest professional soldiers wouldn't have some kind of solid chest piece after brigandines became common

>>52335934
That trio needs a name. They look too jubilant for their purpose.

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We need more WW1 armor

>>52336630
Was chainmail always worn underneath the breastplate or just a Gambeson? I know that as plate articulation became better, chainmail was fazed out of the joints.

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>>52336755
it really depends on the time period and location. At the beginning of the 14th century, a full mail shirt would be worn underneath. Some people even wore just a breastplate, with only the chainmail protecting their backs. As time went on, some countries tended to wear just the breastplate and gambeson, while other countries still wore the whole kit.

It really came down to the individual. Do you want to wear an extra 15 pounds of metal? Some people decided that the extra weight was acceptable in exchange from the added protection. Some didn't, and they would just wear voiders. I believe it was the Germans that went without voiders entirely, as they still restricted movement slightly

>>52335825
>The changes in dimensions was to accommodate the required coverage of the helm and locking systems for ACL/IMC/HMB rule sets

Its sucks, but must be done. What do you use for padding?

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Rate my bascinet.

>>52336162
You got any especially impressive hauberks or chausses, or failing that, general crusade era?

Nice sets of mail always make me feel giddy and like a little child.

>>52337222
What about chainmail coifs? Did those continue to be used under helmets due to needing less freedom of movement compared to arm and leg plate armor?

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Frog-mouth Bascinet or bust.

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>>52339173
That's a griffon bascinet you idiot. This is a frog mouth bascinet.

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>>52339471
Well shit, I stand corrected. Still, I stand by what I said.

Anyone have pics of half plate?

>>52339604
>half plate?
You better be using that word correctly boy.

>>52339700
I don't understand?

To be honest at this point I expect to be told it's the imaginary construct of D&D writers who had no idea what medieval armor actually looks like.

So please correct me.

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>>52336182
K E T T L E
E
T
T
L
E

>>52328293
>>52328314
>>52330264
>>52331995
>>52335624
>>52336451
>>52336492
>>52339173
best armor

>>52336630
>>52336564
Reminds me, does anyone of you have an OCR-software package? I got a nice article about the use and maintainance of Brigandine based on the experiences of a reenactment-troop that has been using them for over a decade here. It's in french though.

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>>52339795
You mean this right.

>>52336165
Dude basically was fursexual for "complete" sets of armour. He went to shameful and disgusting lenght to indulge in his fetish.

>>52339900
I guess? I'm not exactly sure anymore. The definition is so wide. Got any more?

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>>52340035

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>>52334534
>Also try to get a hold of "Classical Weaponry of Japan", by Serge Mol.

Can do, but frankly I won't guarantee that I'll actually scan it right here, because the title and cover make it appear similar to Turnbull's ninja-book.

I did scan most of the plates and some of the content of that book on the Spatha unearthed during the Illerup Ada-excavations though. Didn't bother with the ones about shields, spears, tools or bows.

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Hey anons, what is the exact name of this type of helmet? I just bought one only to realize that despite all I know about armor through history, I have no idea what this is called.

>>52340238
Sugarloaf helm.

>>52340238
Sugarloaf

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>>52338464
No comment?

>>52340300
fuck bascinets

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Mod are asleep. Post your Swordfus.

>>52339795
Half-Plate was a slang term for people who could not afford a full set so they went for the essentials (head, chest, upper arms, thighs)

>>52336182
The kettle burkah?

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>>52339094
By and large that survived up to the great helm, but was skipped for later helmet types (bascinets, sallets, aremets, etc), which I guess would have it fade out largely in the late 14th century or so, at least for "knightly" armour.

If you're fine with more weight on your head for more protection, you can always just use thicker plates, instead of a mail coif.

>>52336500
That's a very Greenwhich-like waistline for Gothic armour.

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>>52335258
OP here.
No.
You can even post fantasy stuff as far as I'm concerned

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>>52339795
Most likely you mean half armor

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http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/gHc6H9dI/file.html

The Stone Age chapter is pretty much information-free though, so I didn't bother.

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>>52344786
Nice

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>>52335627
Bill hooks are brutal. Looks like some proper Mordor shit.

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>>52346309
Halberds are better

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>>52341988

>>52346588
Based croco scabbard...

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>>52346053
"Iron and Steel Swords of China" should've been delivered this week, but customs decided to be nosy.

I ordered it alongside "The Complete Works of Chinese traditional crafts. Armor recovery", which apparently is an arts&crafts-encyclopedia in the old model - one containing actual practical information rather than data. Not my scan though.

http://www11.zippyshare.com/v/kWbrMFQe/file.html

>TFW neither of them will ever be translated

Other stuff I got was most of Johnsson's published writings on "catholic" sword design, for a better term, and sword's dynamic properties, but it seems that most of them ended up being worked into "The Sword - Form and Though" anyway, so I'll scan the relevant articles from that one eventually.

If I want to learn more about this stuff, what are some good books to pick up? Especially for info on the purposes differences served functionally and super bonus points for things like diagrams showcasing their use. Totally understand if these would be in separate books too and am interested in all of it.

>>52344786
And thanks for this.

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>>52347423
No idea.
I learned by going to museums and internet desu.
not by watching youtube videos may I add

>>52347423
Osprey books have some great info.
You can usually find a dropbox link for them in the OP of historical wargames threads.

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>>52336182
sallet love

>>52347423
> Especially for info on the purposes differences served functionally and super bonus points for things like diagrams showcasing their use.

That'd be experimental archeology and a couple of Fechtbuchs/martial texts along with practical instructions from one person to another via letters that were passed down to us through sheer luck. I know that we got a manual on horsemanship from medieval Egypt and we do have loads and loads of writing on japanese stuff, of course. Whatever the Persians wrote hasn't been properly investigated, but they did have a martial culture comparable to the rest of Eurasia, so such texts should exist.

"Expérimenter le manierment des armes à la fin du Moyen Age", Iternia 29/2016, Schwabe Verlag, 9783796534676 mostly features analysis of experiments from the last decade(s), has articles on cannons, riding equipment, brigandine and infantry tactics.

Junkelmann's "Die Reiter Rom" and "Die Legionen des Augustus" and his books on gladiators are pretty interesting. They're classic examples of experimental archeology.

That recent books on English armor is pretty damn good as well. We don't currently posess anything similar for the two other european styles though, so it's also unique. Though, once again, similar writing on japanese gear should be available.

Main issue seems to be that the field is still only maybe 30 years old and there aren't any central organs or organizations that would bother to keep an eye on everything that's being published in various languages.

>>52329240
>Sights
>On a flintlock

Heresy.

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>>52335510

>>52347793
The museums I've gone to have been tragically lacking in terms of arms and armor. Websites are welcome though.

>>52348020
Nice, I'll look into that!

>>52348101
Thanks a ton. I've always liked martial arts books, so the martial manuals and such are of particular interest to me.

Any of you guys got some early Indian (dot variety) firearms?
I know they had advanced cannonry(dunno the proper term)but I'm lacking on information about their small arms.

>>52348304
Leeds Armory in the UK is pretty impressive. Pure weapons and armor and it's huge.

>>52348304
>The museums I've gone to have been tragically lacking in terms of arms and armor
What country(ies) ?
If you're interested in Switzerland we have so many of them that we don't have enough space to expose it all

>>52348362
>>52348433
Hot damn, I need to travel. I'm from the USA, limited to CA, for the most part.

>>52348358
You mean Toradars matchlock? They're the standard type of Mughal gun, but I'd imagine that they also had access to Ottoman guns, what with the Empire handing them out to allies together with the expertise.

>>52348493
KM reposted his Photos of the Graz Armoury in here. I personally like the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna better, but if you just want them to fuck your shit up with tons and tons of weapons and don't give a shit about them learnins, there's nothing in Austria that can beat the Zeughaus in Graz.

If you don't wanna travel that far outside of your comfort zone, the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford too will fuck your shit up and have some learnins to go along with the fuck huge collection and the rest of their easily accessible museums in London are nothing to scoff at either.

Apparently the French got a similar collection in Paris, the Swiss should have notable, but much smaller collections on display in Zürich and Bern, the Germans apparently have one in Munich and Sohlingen and the Italians got some stuff in Venice.

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>>52348695
The Wallace Collection in London is very good. There is some truly exquisite late medieval and renaissance equipment there.

And of course the curator is Dr Toby Capwell, the hunky face of cutting edge A&A research.

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>>52348493
>I need to travel
If you're looking for ideas :
Switzerland :
>Solothurn Altes Zeughaus : Largest collection of armors in Switzerland, more than 300 pieces. Also arms and firearms. Most of it is from 16 th century onward
>Château de Morges: On Geneva lake, good collection of arms and armors. Most being from the 16th century.
>Château de Chillon : Idem, has some earlier stuff
>Musée d'Art et d'Histoire : Geneva. Largest collection of arms and armours around the lake. covers from around 1200 to 1800+
>Federal museum in Zurich: Haven't been there yet
Austria :
>The Neuburg collection of arms and armors in Wien for the most incredible pieces I have ever seen. The ticket also gives you entry to other museums since it is part of the Kunsthistorische Museum of Vienna, worth checking
>As said previously : Graz Zeughaus. Its the next one on my to visit list
>Museum of Military History in Vienna as said by >>52348695 is somewhat interesting but not as muc as the imperial collection IMO
France :
>Musée de l'Armée au Invalides: Also on my to visit list. Some incredibles pieces and a large collection
GB :
>Wallace collection : On my to visit list, don't know much further
Portugal :
>Military Museum Lisbon : Interesting collection in a beautiful museum by the see. Lots of items from different centuries.
>Navy Museum Lisbon : Has some weapons and maybe two armors, still worth checking out.

If someone could give me hints on Italia and Spain it would be greatly appreciated.

>>52348695
>>52348845
>>52348903

I definitely want to travel some time--it's more of a money problem for now. But I've already downloaded the photos and will keep this all in mind for the future. I have a mediocre art background and read as a hobby, so I'd be happy to be fucked up with both pure armor/arms and learnin'.

I appreciate the reccs, it all looks awesome.

>>52348903
>>52348493
Oh and you can see a lot of the Neueburg collection here in good quality
https://www.khm.at/en/visit/collections/collection-of-arms-and-armour/selected-masterpieces/

>>52336280
>>52336492
What the fuck? Was this common?

>>52348903
>The Neuburg collection

The Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer pls. We also used to have non-european armour in the Völkerkundliches in the same complex, but due to bureaucratic fuckery, that one has been closed for twenty years due to ongoing renovations and due to them being unable to come up with a definite concept on what a better, more up-to-date ethnographic museum should look like.

The Wien Museum too has some weapons and armour and a couple of Pavis on display, but it's not its main focus.

Prehistoric up to iron age arms and armor are to be seen in the Naturhistorisches Museum.

Personally I think Innsbruck's Ambras Palace collection is pretty sweet and worth a visit. They also have a lot of Wunderkammer-items on display there.

Italy seems to have practically zilch in the field. Like the collection in Venice comes up occasionally and we can't forget about the Castle Churburg collection, yes, but the city of Rome only seems to display items dealing with its post-unification military history, to name something that's really wierd.

At the edges of Europe, I think that the Turks got an interesting one at the Topyak Palace Museum. The Ottomans collected most swords associated with Mohamed, to name something.

>>52349029
I think polishing them until they were white wasn't uncommon, yes. And displaying unrelated pieces together for the sake of putting complete suits on display wasn't uncommon either, but cutting armours up was hopefully limited to that fetishist.

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>>52336492
Part of my profession concerns the protection of cultural goods and I want to puke

>>52349147
>The Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer pls
ja ja ja genau genau.
Also : Topkapi and not Topyak. been there and its not really interesting. Just the Turks having a mass wankery as usual.

>>52348903
For Viking Age stuff:

London: British Museum (excellent Anglo-Saxon gallery) and Museum of London (pretty good, but not large enough to take a whole day especialy if you are only there for the weaponry).

Dublin: National Museum of Ireland.

Copenhagen: Nationalmuseets. It's Denmark, they have a one or two viking artefacts.

I've yet to venture to Norway, but a sword-seeing trip will hopefully happen next year.

>>52349248
Not interested in the period but will definitely check them out if I happen to pass by, London and Dublin being the most likely. Always nice to learn and discover new things

>>52349147
>>52349238
>>52349248
My bucket list only grows with all of your answers, haha.

>>52340300
That's beautiful.

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>>52349248
Where did the Illerup Adal swords end up at again?

Spain and the nations neigbouring the black sea should have Kopis tucked away somewhere. I recall that they excavated a load of more or less intact wooden Kopis scabbard parts from an antique temple somewhere in the black sea region.

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>>52349428
I don't recall seeing them in Copenhagen but it's not my period and my trip there was several years ago now.

Berlin has the aptly named Museum Island. The New Museum has a treasure trove of pre-historic and Ancient weaponry.

The Pergamon Museum has little in the way of weapons but is mostly worth visiting to marvel how the Germans have made an art of stealing entire multi-story buildings and shipping them back to the fatherland. They just don't do archaeology like they used to.

>>52349790
Yeah, they pretty much are the closest thing we got to 40K Orks.

>>52347175
>>TFW neither of them will ever be translated
Thanks for the pdf,I don't there think there will ever be a comprehensive source on ancient Chinese armaments that will end up marketed for Westerners.

Modern Chinese cinema is content with pseudo historical or even high fantasy elements for historical dramas/movies(unlike let's say the Japanese Taiga dramas)

Fortunately, there are amateur blacksmiths that have begun experimenting with historical designs.

Say, I've seen videos showing people in full plate doing cartwheels, push ups and jumping jacks demonstrating that it doesn't significantly impede movement but how does that compare to Chainmail? Did chainmail cause considerable reductions to agility as well?

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>>52350466
The most important thing about mail, is that the stuff fits properly. This is not too much of a problem for simple shirts, but badly fitted longsleeves in particular have a tendency to bunch up which massively restrict arm mobility. That and having baggy mail means you are carrying excess weight that is only getting in the way.

The fact that most reenactors go for relatively thick padding because reduced mobility in a play fight is better than bumps and bruises down your arm when you show up to the office the next day also skews things somewhat. More weight, more bulk and more heat.

Mail is fairly heavy stuff, especially if you are going full body coverage which naturally is more exhausting than wearing no armour. However assuming it is properly fitted there is not a great deal of reduction to agility. Push ups and jumping jacks are no issue, but you'll need to find someone who could cartwheel before putting the armour on for me to tell you whether it's possible in extensive mail. In a byrnie however you can dance the night away and it's only when you take the stuff off that you realise the weight.

Could anyone tell me more about Scale Armor. How did it compare to plate and mail? I've only seen examples involving chest protection but was scale ever used to protect other spots?

>>52348190
This one looks like it could be rifled (flintlock rifles tended to have shorter barrels than smoothbore flintlocks both because the barrel didn't need to be as long thanks to the rifling and also a rifled barrel as long as a line musket would be impossible to load from the muzzle at an acceptable rate) so the sights make sense.

>>52328273
I am in love

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>>52352253
Not as good as plate. Comparable to mail, but heavier so people didn't really bother. A common complaint is that scale is vulnerable to upwards thrusts due to how the scales are laid, but I always thought that was more of a armchair quarterback thing that was grossly exaggerated.

I think I read somewhere of a scale skirt or gauntlets, but I don't remember if it was a real thing or just some LARPer.

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>>52328273

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Bump for scanning in progress. Don't expect anything but potatoe-tier scans though.

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I'm torn between getting this or a sallet, I'm worried a sallet with before could be uncomfortable.

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http://www95.zippyshare.com/v/HzpytlLH/file.html

As I said - potatoe scans, because I'd have to get a new scanner and debind the book to deliver something decent here in the first place.

It's also not the complete book .

>>52333160
Two-handed for the longest time.
To couch a lance underneath your arm you need a very firm seat; more than you can get without stirrups.

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A rare example of a wild Sallet in its natural environment.

>>52328273

I don't know why, but that Sallet looks feminine. In fact, ALL sallets look like something a lady should wear. And not in a bad way.

>>52363341
Because it's the only known headgear for Sisters of Battle?

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>>52363341
You may be subconsciously associating the shape with a feminine hair style perhaps?

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What about weird and fantasy armors, like the shit from Morrowind? Got any of those?

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>>52365152
Gah those textures, it's like looking through the porthole of time there.

Morrowind for the most part isn't too retarded in armour designs, even the excessive pauldrons and spikes tend to not be GW/Warcraft level of full retard. It's not great but there's a clear logic to a lot of it and usual materials involved.

>>52366194
They have a really cool selection of helms and headgear, that's where the most character of the armor comes from.