What's so evil about being a lich?

The ritual

>>52320558
so if someone else turns you into a lich then it's not evil?

Religion is on about how death is only natural, how the true power behind life and everything is in the soul, and how we shouldn't mess with the natural order of things.

Liches are literally a giant middle finger to the established order of things. No gods get their souls, they can continue living, and people start asking questions. The only way to save face and stop everything from going to shit is to defame and demonize the very idea of being a lich.

That, or the whole 'Magic decaying badass' is a bit too much for people to accept at once, so they attribute it to being evil. Also, quite a few liches are really dickish in general, so there is that.

>>52320513
They're undead and undead are evil

>>52320513
In most settings, magic that manipulates the soul or life force of sentient beings is considered evil, unless that power comes directly from the gods or other divine sources.

Mankind "playing god" being an act of evil, hubris, or both has been a theme of human literate dating back to the first days we had writing and stories.

>>52320513
A lich replaced his natural but limited life force with unlimited energy of death, decay, destruction, entropy and rot. As amoral concepts, they are natural and necessary, but acted upon in full consciousness, that makes the lich an asshole who has the hardest of times even thinking about *not* killing, maiming, corrupting, rotting and making things all around him unequivocally worse. And filtered through mortal morality, being a vehicle for death and destruction makes you an asshole.

I mean, the paralysis, negative-energy blasting touch attack of the lich means that it literally can't touch anything without murdering it...

All those liches that lock themselves at the deepest ends of ultra-secured dungeons ? They are the good ones, the ones who took measures to limit their own degradation of the world by limiting themselves to a 10x10 empty room.

>>52320665
Eh. Fuck the gods.

Don't you have to kick a puppy and a bunch of other not cool shit for the lich ritual?

>>52320851
In Von Richten's Guide to the Undead, a 2e Ravenloft supplement, they describe the ritual as needing the fresh heart of an innocent humanoid to be used in the brewing of the potion that kills you when you become a lich. In addition, the lich must eat souls, an evil act, along with the negative energy warping their morality towards evil.

In 3e it was implied the ritual comes from Orcus, the Demon Lord of Undeath, and requires various Evil actions to fulfill.

In PF the path to lichdom is possible with the Eternal Apotheosis occult ritual. Its not the only one but represents the general way in which its achieved. It requires the caster to have created an atrocity on the spot or where they began their descent into evil.
>"This ritual represents just one way some liches have transferred their souls into phylacteries. Other rituals tied to lichdom involve bargains or liaisons with evil outsiders, caster-created alchemical tinctures infused with the energy of loved ones’ souls, and other such trying necessities. Although heinously evil, the eternal apotheosis occult ritual is perhaps the most direct way to achieve lichdom."

So basically, lichdom is reserved generally for evil fuckers since they have to commit deep evil to do it, or the ritual literally warps their souls into evil if performed.

>>52320571
Lady Vol did nothing wrong.

>>52321053
>In 3e it was implied the ritual comes from Orcus, the Demon Lord of Undeath, and requires various Evil actions to fulfill.
Why not research a way to lichdom free of Orcus's bullshit?
Power your undeath through, like, elemetal fire or something

>>52320513
Cheating death is still cheating.

>>52321097
> Yeah, it runs off of Charm Person. I love all of you.

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>>52320513
>Every Lich Ever

>>52321093
>Why not research a way to lichdom free of Orcus's bullshit? Power your undeath through, like, elemetal fire or something

You know how no matter how many times you stick your finger into an open electrical current the exact same thing happens every single time, even though sophisticated medical treatments often rely on electricity somehow at some point, such to make medicine or to run machines, to keep you breathing, etc?

Same problem arises with your idea
Both use a kind of power, but power usually isn't universally applicable in all situations in all fictional D&D settings.
You can't stick your hand into what amount to pure fire and then expect immortality because fire has nothing to do with life OR death; it just has to do with burning shit.

Negative Energy in the other hand has been definitively linked to undeath as sort of the "opposite" form of animating positive energy.

>>52320513
In what setting, fuckwit?
Give us actual details for your query if you want help with your situation already.

>>52321053

Gotta break a few eggs right?

What's so bad about becoming a lich, creating an order of paladins and having them funnel baddies to me for me to reap? I just wanna read books and guide mankind for eons before I have a protégé take over.

>>52321198
You're putting forward a hypothetical situation that isn't even happening in a real game of D&D you're actually playing in real life, aren't you? I bet you've never even been halfway closed a situation like that in any game you have played.

You're posting and talking on here because you're lonely or bored or are genuinely not imaginative enough to actually think of something to do.

>>52321198
Because depending on the system, there's multiple other ways to become immortal? For PF Wizards, at level 20 they can grab a discovery that makes them stop aging, for example.

>>52321093
Immortality and power are hard to get, and Orcus is just there handing out free ways that are just easier but involve fealty to Orcus and doing some evil.

Of course the elves have their own ritual that makes baelnorns, neutral or good elf "liches". Its a non-Orcus, elf specific ritual.

Then there's the archlich, a form of non evil lich which uses a much different ritual and is harder to achieve, requiring spellcasting of a much higher level.

Basically lichdom is the quick easy path but you pay a very high price for it.

>>52321198
HAHA, Ive got an idea, I, a lich of great evil will form an organization of people from churches of Good who are dedicated to eradicating evil and who will have these powers before I make the organization, and then use them to funnel evil souls my way, despite needing the souls of good people, so that I may live for eternity! Its foolproof, I tell you!

>>52321224

It's my next PF character. I'm sure I'm gonna catch flak and might end up becoming the baddie but whatevs. And since you're just looking to pick a fight what does that make you?

>>52321256

..welll... I haven't read a single thing on wizards cause /tg/ says they're pretty much just magic man.

>>52321265
It's your next PF concept that you DM will shoot down and say no to, and my guess is you know it already on some level. So ya don't need to worry about the flak at all.
I dunno man, I came in here thought you were asking an actual QUESTION, but really you were just looking for an excuse to do something you were already going try to do anyway. You don't need 4chan for that shit.
Just go DO IT if you GM let's you, don't fuckin' waste time pretending like you need to get permission. You're an adult.

>>52321224

I hate to break it to you guy, but you pretty much just spelled out the raison d'etre of /tg/

>>52321294

Look, I'm just making dialogue, I had no idea this thread was srs bzns.

No, its another episode of ancient liches and zombie apocalypse in fantasy land and I'm going to turn the tables on this bullshit. I know several people in my group are gonna roll with it.

>>52321053
>commit some kind of "atrocity"
>proceed to use the powers you've gained from committing said "atrocity" to do countless more good things

How does this make you evil? Is, say, ripping the heart out of a child and then saving thousands of children later somehow unforgivable?

>>52320513
They lost their boner!

>>52321335

>they still use character alignments

>>52321335
No amount of saving people justifies killing an innocent to do it. There are situations, like when you're the leader of a country, where you have to make hard choices on who lives and dies, but that's part of the Social Contract that everyone in that nation is a participant in. It isn't some lich killing you with delusions of becoming a hero for it.

>>52321327
I guess so?
Didn't realize how messed-up this board had gotten while I was away I suppose. Hadn't realized /tg/ had gotten so fucked up that it was being used as a replacement for having friends and actually developing your hobbies.
>>52321331
Well, great. Go do that then.
Just saying, starting a thread about it doesn't really help and isn't going to give you ideas. All you wanted to know was how to become a Lich and if you has to be evil in PF as far as I can tell, and that's it. There's nothing else to talk about. There's no real subject matter, nothing unusual or special in need of in-depth discussion, nothing that hasn't been retread a thousand times on here.

Look, I'm washing your time AND mind with this converstion so I'll just shove off. I got the wrong impression by the subject matter and thought there was somebody that actually needed some help with something. I apologize.
Good luck to you on your thing and hope your idea works out or whatever.

>>52321438

I didn't even make the thread you fucking mong. I just stopped by to talk about liches in a thread about liches. Goddamn.

>>52321422

If an Afghan police unit is keeping their best guys ,who died ,on payroll to send their kids a few bucks, fuck um, they're corrupt bastards right?

Saving one innocent over ten is and will always be selfish.

>>52321335
>Is, say, ripping the heart out of a child
Evil? Yes. The rest of your statement is irrelevant. The ends do not justify the means. The Future doesn't exist. There is only the present, and if the present is ripping out a childs heart you are a monster.

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>>52321422
>>52321550
I'm sure the thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, and so on that an immortal highly difficult to kill presumably very powerful magic user could benefit throughout the theoretically infinite amount of lifetimes he or she would have would totally agree.

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>>52321541
That's not even remotely the same scenario. Paying out money to someone who died in the line of duty defending people is not the same as killing innocents with the dlusion that you'll somehow be able to make up for it. Like... they're not even remotely the same scenario? Are you baiting, or just honestly that retarded?

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Even if being a lich isn't inherently evil, no one who does it isn't inclined to evil.

The "i just want to read books" thing is bullshit and fuck people who do that.

If my only ambition in life is sitting in my tower and reading books where did I scrounge up the ambition to seek out a forbidden ritual known only to a few madmen, build up immense magical power, desecrate my body and soul beyond recovery, and then literally kill myself and put my humanity in a box, so I can live eternally as a rotting corpse.

So I can read some books.

No. Anybody with the ambition and inclination to go through becoming a lich is doing it because he has a special plan for the world.

Also all sorcerers are evil, fight me if you disagree.

The only guy who could handle developing magical powers at puberty and not become an entitled monster with no sense of morality or consequences is Jesus, and not even that since he was so nutbar he killed a fig tree for not fruiting in the wrong season.

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>>52321628
Why are sorcerers evil? They're just rape-babies with non-human blood (because somehow you can produce offspring that way in DnD land). The evil of the parent doesn't necessarily translate to the child, unless the parent is one of those races that HAS to be evil like a demon.

>>52321597
Well what I'm trying to show it that what they're doing is against the rules. It is wrong, they're commuting fraud. Are you gonna go Perry the paladin and make them stop?

I'm comparing your whole, "ends are not justifed.." talk. If something little can be justifiable then so can something big. If you can't focus on the bigger picture then I feel like you maybe haven't been in bad spots before to see how sometimes you gotta do bad to do good.

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>>52321628

Based. Power corrupts, no matter how "enlightened" someone might claim themselves to be.
And magic is power for the weak.

SMITE AND PURGE THE HEATHENS
DEUS VULT

>>52321628
Developing magical powers at puberty doesn't necessarily mean you'll become an entitled jackass in a world where people can gain magical powers by literally just studying hard enough.

I mean, normal humans develop the capacity to kill other people pretty early on in their life cycle, but since EVERYONE can do it, it's not really special or anything.
And even if it WAS special, how "entitled" someone became would be based pretty heavily on whether they were praised or demonized for their powers. Someone who got chased out of their home by an angry mob may try to repress or hide their powers, for example. Or develop an extremely productive loyalty to whatever groups accepts him for who he is, like a heroic adventuring party.

>>52321696
Why are le ebin deus vult XD cucks so cringey?

>>52321727
>animeposter talking about autism

Like clockwork.

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>>52321694
So basically I can come into your house, shoot you, and take your stuff if I'm donating it to charity because I feel like the charity is worth more than your life?

Hollllly shit... I have no words...

>>52321260
>Basically lichdom is the quick easy path but you pay a very high price for it.

>Is the Dark side stronger?
>No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

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>>52321727

But did you keep reading?

>>52321747
>having such a lack of vision that you think donating a few bucks to charity is the same as saving potentially millions of lives with your big dumb immortal magic powers

How sad.

>>52321707

That's why I said sorcerers.

>>52321694

Because spontaneously developing magical powers at a young, rebellious age is going to lead to bad behavior adults in your life are unable to correct because you can blow them up with your mind.

A selfish child with diminished sense of consequences is given superpowers and nobody can control him without sending him to a convent. What do you think is gonna happen?

>>52321696
faget

>>52321669
All magic users are evil, for they possess the power mankind never meant to have. Liches in particular just make their horrid affliction more visible.

A magic user is not a part of society. He can create food, water, servants with thought alone, and he can destroy just as easily.

It's only good and sensible for normals, uncorrupted by magic, to band together and exterminate these mutants. If you don't launch the initial attack, the wizard will probably Charm Person and you'll never be yourself again.

>>52321778
But the point remains the same. The value of the good gained is completely in the eyes of the person making the decision, and based on their fallible mortal viewpoints and experiences.

In the same way you deliberately compared ridiculous scenarios that had nothing to do with eachother, I can make the same argument here because the moral logic is the same either way.

>>52321796
You realize you're arguing with at least two different people, bud. Again, of course, lack of vision.

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>>52321784
>they possess the power mankind never meant to have
>>52321778

I played a sorc (good, worked for paladins and didn't afraid of nothing) who ended up becoming a good lich as a reward from a good god (technically the good side of death, weird setting...).

He did good things for people, solved a lot of logistical problems for the country he was in and generally was a decent person. He just so happened to be slightly rotten.

Labels man.

>>52321747

The problem with you retards is you have a shit sense of morals and can't understand how to entertain two different opposing beliefs at once in your head so you just say all evil is evil and not sacrifice. I know you chuckle fucks can't handle decision making so you turn to the same way religion has approached morality, that it's black and white.

You're so fucking lazy that you can't be assed to paint your own models, or give complex thought a try. Holy fucking shit.

>>52321778
Reminder that the Nazis thought they were saving the entire human race with their genocide and are pretty universally considered evil now.

What gives me the right to decide what your life or anyone else's is worth, let alone take it for my own purposes?

In many of these hypotheticals I'm seeing there is a clear trend.

>But if I'm becoming a Lich to do good is it still all that evil.

You are by nature killing an innocent to allow you to escape death and shape the world to your will. If you were a player and this was the enemy of an adventure you were in, how would you look at it?

Most settings do define Undeath in any form to be against The Rules of Nature and inherently Evil. If the ritual requires the death of innocents then you are saying you life, your dreams and goals are above the ones you've killed. If you didn't have to do anything like that then we'd get into if the spell and ownership of it was evil. Was it passed down through brutal experimentation? If however it all came down to just burning gold in the Ether had no such evil properties we'd look at how the spell effected the "mind" or the clarity of the soul. Does being in a corpse effect the mind and weather them down as the strain of time takes is coarse. Do they maintain the same ability to learn as they did as a living being? Can the mind handle as the social norms change till regardless of undeath they are an outsider of the times.

Even at the end of the day Alignment systems aside if you are exhorting your will to change society, ethics, save lives of those you perceive as innocent you are in someones eyes evil by virtue of cultural ignorance.

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>>52321696
>Power Corrupts
But what about all the LG gods?

>>52321628
If that was a Current 93/Thomas Ligotti reference then you may just be my African American gentleman acquaintance

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>>52321741
>>52321783
>butthurt liches detected

Don't get me wrong, magic has it uses. But when demons start to invest my hamlet because jimmy down the street HAD to make more pacts with their foul kind...

Then it is time for a purge.
pic related

Any form of immortality robs you of the essence of humanity, death. You can be a shambling corpse or an amalgamation of fiery gas and be truly immortal, but at that point you could hardly be called human.

>>52321813
I'm very much trying to entertain your opposing viewpoint right now, but you're not giving much of an explanation of why your viewpoint is rich. Calling it a "sacrifice" doesn't change the fact that you're literally deciding someone's life is worth less than some good you think you can achieve, and you're then saying it's right that you can take that life to achieve an end that you decided is best. Society doesn't work this way. If someone AGREED to sacrifice themselves so you could become a lich hero, if someone AGREED to be the sacrifice, then I might be able to see your point... but in the case of liches that's usually not the scenario, and if it is it's usually done out of fear or some other coercion.

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What if you're the innocent person that you ate the heart of in your lich ritual?
You used some magic to keep yourself alive long enough to kill yourself.

>>52321817
>comparing gassing the undesirables and eugenics because it might somehow have some positive effect to sacrificing a few people for VAST MAGICAL POWER

Are you even trying?

>>52321813
i'm a different anon, throwing my hat in because i can

One of the biggest things about being good is that you choose not to take the esiest path, or the path that will bloody your hands with innocents. Evil thinks the ends justify the means, it's good when your means justify your ends.

In my opinion. (i actually do understand the dichotomy of thought that is needed to be great leader, but that's a misnomer, great leaders can use evil and good tactics to get what they want. which hopefully dismantles the inevitable strawman that gets put up.)

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>>52321850
You're not innocent if you're using magic now, are you?

>>52321830

In D&D cosmology good and evil are metaphysical concepts that objectively exist and have meaning, and gods are aligned to that cosmic axis.

Outside of D&D cosmology gods define morality.

God told the Jews to exterminate the Midianites and take their women as slaves, and it was Good.

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>>52321852
I'm saying that perspectives of right and wrong are based on context, and giving an example of such happening in the real world. Generally people who think their way is the only right way end up becoming tyrants and dictators who oppress the very people they're trying to "protect" and end up being seen as "evil", not "good".
Meanwhile you're doing pic related instead of debating with any kind of legitimate defense of your viewpoint.

>>52321860
You're not good if you can't give them a chance, are you?

>>52321881
That picture already lost me 3 friends.

>>52320513
Because the undead are spooky.

>>52320665
I'm not sure why fantasy should follow the conventions of old christfag literature.

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>>52321835

>>52321882
Giving people chances for absolutely no reason has probably lead to more evil than most things.
Good intentions being main source number one.
Goodness =/= naivety.

>>52320513
Threads like these are the reason I've come to hate /tg/. It depends on the fucking setting you absolute fucking moron.

If we're talking dnd the reason is because there is EVIL and GOOD in the planes. They have physical embodiments - there is no other way to get around this. You PURPOSEFULLY turn yourself into a lich. You spend thousands upon thousands of gold and sacrificed the blood of innocents to become immortal. You're a fucking abomination to any goodly being.

If it's any other setting then fuck you who cares. Make them not evil and suck your clock for free. Do the stupid meme of HAHA My undead were for the good of all!! Or whatever bullshit you can think of.

The point of being a lich is BECAUSE you forcibly made others die for your own greed of immortality. If you want to contrive meme reasons for not doing that go play with your dick and jerk off to your bullshit fantasy.

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>>52321422
>>52321550
>>52321597
>>52321727
>>52321747
>>52321796
>>52321817
>>52321881
I'm gonna give out an autistic amount of (You)s here to remind everyone that this is why the current generation of males and most females of any generation should not be allowed to make any important decision.

>>52321899
>showing people demotivationals after 2006
I would stop being your friend too, nerd.

>>52321899
I'm sorry your friends are so sensitive they'll stop being your friends over 15 year old internet memes.

I think there was alot more to it than just the picture if this little "debate" you've been having is any indicator though >__>

>>52321911
Goodness =/= oppression.

goodness is innocent until proven guiltily. Goodness is not punishing people for something they haven't done yet.

it's not Nativity, it's confidence. It's trust, trust in yourself, and trust in the good.

That being said, good should also have a big stick when that gets thrown into their face, because rude.

>>52321256
In 5e, if I remember correctly, with DM permission, after level 20, you my gain something like a feat, but its called something else, that is open to all classes, and that feat prevents you from dying of old age

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>>52321584
Hypothetical future situations aside, you are still evil for murdering the innocent. The fact you have to use a future which does not yet exist to justify an atrocity of the present merely reveals your true nature.

>>52321881
>>52321925
>feefees based argument
>emoticons
>unable to comprehend that more than one person is giving him (You)s

What are you even trying to do?

>>52321918
At least half those people are making legitmate arguments and discussion points instead of screeching that their opponents are some kind of tumblr-tier nu-males buzzwords and pretending that's a defensive or productive discussion of their own viewpoint.

>>52321939
Waiting for evil to happen before acting is an evil act in itself. Not taking preventative measures is sloth and sloth is evil.
Look those eaten children in eyes in the afterlife when you have to explain to them you weren't sure if the dragon was a vegetarian or not and you didn't want to oppress it.

>>52321922
I wouldn't have been your friend in the first place anon, you're ruse and insult people.
>>52321925
Well, the picture was extremely related. I'm a big detractor of dogmatic thinking, and organized religion in general (you're all wrong, so am i, lets just be good and kind to each other and work together, hopefully your gods aren't such petty asshole that that will be enough)

So yeah, lost friends, having a blast.

>>52321969
>I'm a big detractor of dogmatic thinking, and organized religion in general (you're all wrong, so am i, lets just be good and kind to each other and work together, hopefully your gods aren't such petty asshole that that will be enough)
Christ, I remember being 17

>>52321965
t. numale

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>>52321918
>Literally gathering a compilation of half a dozen people telling you you're wrong.
>"YEAH, THESE GUYS ARE RETARDED, AMIRITEGUISE?!"

>>52321969
>>52321993
So, are you women, or raised by single mothers?

>>52321093
>Why not research a way to lichdom free of Orcus's bullshit?
Why not just research a way to become a god, if we're playing a freeform game anyway?

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Trying to attribute a numerical value to amount of goodness and evilness is retarded try to relate and convert them like a fucking currency is ridiculous.

That said, that's basically the way it works in DnD and there's probably planes that trade good boy and bad boy coins.

>>52321967
But committing a violent action on an innocent is evil in of itself, is it not? If the person hasn't committed the act (you merely, based on appearance condemned them) are they guilty?

Saying yes here, well, makes you evil.

I can prepare to take the punch, and warn you of the consequences of what'll happen when you punch me. But i'm not going to stop you until you've committed to the act.

It's not evil to believe they will do good, expect them to do good. It's naive either, it's the right thing to do.

>>52321978
when i was 17 i was a by the book christian in the KKK, so you know ~assumptions~.

This is after seeing the terrible shit being dogmatic does, and i don't budge onn my belif that we can be better. I don't compromise myself for the feels of others, and i don't compromise my belief in doing good even for my on safety. I am a bit broken.

D&D's worst legacy is the opinion magic and opinion-based interdimensional fauna, and making personality exclusive for the murderhobo protagonists who couldn't care less about it.

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>>52322004
U mad bro?
:^)

>>52321838
>when demons start to invest my hamlet
That's a problem with banks, not wizards.

>>52321335
Hell, as long as the lich saves my ass, he can kill as many innocent kids as he wants.

But the kind of person who'd murder children for power probably wouldn't make a very good hero.

Do fetuses count? Maybe you could abort your way to lichdom and skirt the line.

>>52322023
>getting mad over mocking numales and women

Literally why? I've been smiling through this entire thread, and you're not mad either. Almost nobody actually gets mad over internet arguments. You'll forget about it the moment you close this tab, just like I will.

>>52322017
>But committing a violent action on an innocent is evil in of itself, is it not? If the person hasn't committed the act (you merely, based on appearance condemned them) are they guilty?
Acting wrathfully is what makes you evil. Taking preventive efforts does not.
You don't have to murder every dragon in existence, but you should also keep children away from dragon caves and occasionally spray the village down with dragon repellent.
Sure, there might be 1 dragon in the hundreds who is a vegetarian, but why take that chance and endanger the children of the village?
You're not going out of your way to murder dragons, but you're also not taking chances with them. This is the moral path.

>>52322050
That's how a cabal of dark wizard neets performed the lich ritual in my modern fantasy setting.

>>52322004
Mother and father, 3 brothers and host of old world grandparents.

Don't make assumptions to justify being a dick.

>>52321838
>But when demons start to invest my hamlet

See, now you're just spouting bigotry and lichophobia. Respectable, upstanding demons want to invest in your hamlet, likely bringing jobs and competitive wages; and all you can do is spout hateful words. I bet all your friends are paladins.

#lichlivesmatter

>>52321438
>Didn't realize how messed-up this board had gotten
>implying it's a change
>implying you were gone

>>52321993
That Guy never realizes they're That Guy, this is like one of the first things you learn in the /tg/ community. It's always someone else's fault that nobody likes them. Always just jealous that they're smarter than everyone else. Clearly.

>>52322050

The transformation comes from the malignity and evil of what you're doing, not some kind of magical scavenger hunt.

You become a lich by desecrating your soul and eroding it away until you can fit it in a box. It's not really something you can jew with corner cases.

>>52322080
Sounds like they're all faggots and raised a pussy :^)

>>52322109
>It's not really something you can jew with corner cases.
I dunno, that sounds like another way to corrode your soul.

>>52322080
Bruh, stop taking his bait. The assblast is obvious and any chance of civil discussion died forever ago. Nothing good will come of continuing this.

>>52321848

Ultimately this all comes down to personal "lines" Im seeing. I kinda figured more people would understand doing bad to do more good.

Let's say I get ten goods for one bad. All eleven acts have the same moral weight. Whereas I get one good per predetermined timeframe, or, I can trade in one good for 3 goods.

Now imagine you need to make this decision on a huge scale and/or time is of the essence.

I hope you're not inferring that there's always another choice, cause in life and poker, you play with what you got kiddo.

>>52321913
Butthurt fat nerd detected. Threads like these might come up with new ideas that could be useful and fun. And you sound like you hate fun.

But you're really angry because you got cucked by a lich, right? Bet that's it.

>>52322056
I agree fully, but the original issue i have had, and the big one, is the assumption of evil before evil is done.

Put it this way, if a dragon, showing no signs of hostility, decides to just live near the village, never doing anything to harm or threaten, is the dragon subject to the prejudecs that theother members of its race have created?

Not to a good person, in my mind. A good person take people at their face value, never questioning their motives, and is always ready to end them if they get dangerous.

I'm a big believer in not being an asshole uncessarily, which often means trusting people others wouldn't, and being fucked over when an asshole decides to be an asshole. I just fuck them hard after they do it and anyone interacting with me on that kind of level, they know what happens. but that's just me, the martial giant, able to take any violence put to me, so that the people i love (everyone) can feel safe.

>>52322111
Guess your parents are proud of the rude asshole they raised, must be great living under that roof.

>>52322139
But i'm Bored At Work and it's tasty bait. I wanna see how deprived his mind can be! i wanna if he gets sick of me! kill assholes with kindness i always say (or a knife if they push it too far)

>>52322142
Don't try to turn this into a legitimate discussion now, after you've spent the last hour calling everyone who was trying to do that a faggot and throwing out /pol/ insults about women and nu-males. I get that you're bored now that almost everyone stopped taking your bait, but this attempt to reignite the shitshow isn't going to work. Just stop. Go "close the tab" and "stop caring" about this like you said you would and leave the rest of alone.

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Time value of good deeds.
A good deed today is worth more than the same good deed tomorrow.
Now you can leverage your evil in order to perform greater good, but that all depends on what your morality inflation and interest rate are.
Your forecasts should have a reasonable accuracy for you to undertake a huge investment like a lich ritual.

>>52322142
>actually trying to engage in a protracted argument about the values of sacrifice with millenials instead of just laughing and shitposting at them

>>52322165
>Not to a good person, in my mind. A good person take people at their face value, never questioning their motives, and is always ready to end them if they get dangerous.
This is all well and good if you're the only idiot that gets hurt when the dragon gets hungry, but the mayor of our village has to make hard choices. It isn't only his ass that gets burnt if he messes up. Better safe than sorry.

>>52322175
Where have you been the last hour? The only reason he's trying to have a "protracted argument" is because everyone got sick of his shitposting and stopped taking the bait.

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>>52322165
>But i'm Bored At Work and it's tasty bait. I wanna see how deprived his mind can be! i wanna if he gets sick of me! kill assholes with kindness i always say (or a knife if they push it too far)

Holy shit you can't actually be this much of a cringelord

>>52322166

Link every post you think was me cause I think you don't realize that sometimes others agree.

I haven't made a single /pol/-ish reference.

>>52322165
>But i'm Bored At Work and it's tasty bait. I wanna see how deprived his mind can be! i wanna if he gets sick of me! kill assholes with kindness i always say (or a knife if they push it too far)
Wow, you HAVE to be fucking with me right now. With every other post you've made, I refuse to believe you're real.

>>52322165
>But i'm Bored At Work and it's tasty bait. I wanna see how deprived his mind can be! i wanna if he gets sick of me! kill assholes with kindness i always say (or a knife if they push it too far)

Alright there's no fucking way. You have to be fucking with me. Like I've been shitposting and being an asshole for funsies, but this line makes me think I'm actually the one being trolled

>>52322166
>dumb numale can't understand that there are multiple people that disagree with him

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>tfw this guy is amassing cringes and humiliation so he can destroy his own humanity and become an undead edgelord.

>>52320513
Technically it can be as simple as they're lawful evil in most Ed's

As for artistically/autistically, you can have any reason to have a litch be a litch.

An autistic example would be a paladin phylactic on to his halberd in an act of justice is forever pure.

And he would still be ruggedly handsome lich that woman still flirted with.

[spoilers]A U T I S M[/spoilers]
>>52321198
El Shit poster.

>>52322195
Does that threaten you?

>>52322216
Belief in something doesn't change the fact that it exists.

>>52322234
maybe we all are anon. maybe we all are.

>>52322188
Being a good leader is not about being a good person. It's about making the hard choices that end up with the happiest people. Leadership is not inherently a good thing, it's another tool that can be used in different ways.

If the hypothetical mayor wanted to be a good person, in the fullest way i feel, he'd trust that the non threatening dragon isn't going to fuck them up, warn the kids not be shitty to it, and tell people to give it clearance until it proves (through continued action) that it wasn't evil.

If it decided to be hostile AT ANY POINT then driving it off would be the good thing.

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>>52322250
OH
MY
GOD

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

>>52322250
>>52322276
I feed on your cringe.

>>52322256
If the dragon harms anyone, it's on the mayor's head.
He wasn't careful. He decided give the dangerous animal too much leeway and it kills someone. How does he face his people? Why take unnecessary risk?
Caution and being preemptive are not evil.
Betting other people's lives because you want to be the nice guy is the evil deed.

>>52321784
Dark Souls 3 fan spotted.

>>52322291
Again, caution is still there, preparation is still there. (violent)Action is not, condemnation is not. That's the important part for good, it's not condemning before the get to the committing.

the point is to not assume the dragon will fuck you up if it's not acting hostile. if it has done nothing it doesn't deserve being treated poorly. No one does. Your preconceptions, no matter your position of authority, don't give you the right to be an asshole. You expect the best prepare for the worst, so to speak.

>>52320513
The good necromancers die from backstabbing or they turn evil out of frustration from trying to practice a forbidden art of magic.

The few that manage it are so few and so far apart in history that they are literally not counted for.

This is why I don't play with anyone under the age of 30 or women. Childlike understandings of morality and abloo bloo bloo it hurts my feelings so its wrong is too abundant when you let those people in.

>>52322352
Murderhobo parties aren't fun either :^)

>>52322352
You do realize you're an asshole right?

>>52322254

You still haven't linked my posts to prove your claim fucknut.

>>52322352
another you for (you)

You do realize that some people (like myself) don't care about our own feelings right? Instead they care about other peoples feelings (and yes, hurting someones feelings is a dick move) and safety, above their own.

It's why all of you uhh 'older' (i'm 45, but not an asshole GET THE HINT) people are going to be the most wonderfully obsolete generation. and you guys are so butthurt about its adorable.

Rid the wave, let the ones who are inheriting the shit ball our generation created have what they want, and the OVERWHELMING majority (nerds like us have such a narrow view of the world) kinda want people to stop being assholes to each other. Sure, a few bad eggs here or there, but i have a baseball bat for them.

Oh /tg/, never change.

>>52322352
I WISH I could get more players who show some of that "emotion" stuff. Instead they're all just >>52322368 and fuck that's boring to run a game for.

>>52322352
Hey man, I don't really care who you play pretend with.

Killing innocent people is still evil, no matter how old you are.

Then again, this is obviously b8, and I'm responding.

>DnD players

lmao

>>52322433

I wonder what the demographic data would look like. Im absolutely floored by the amount of moral hardliners here.

>>52322414
I don't play with people over 40, either. If you're not 31-39 years of age, get the fuck out.

>>52322443
Millennial spotted

>>52322395

I'm not the same (You), (You)

>>52322443
How does one gauge innocence?

>>52322493
I mean, you still haven't really given any sort of explanation to why killing innocent people ISN'T evil.

You could always try to use your big boy words instead of throwing an autistic tantrum.

>>52322488
So much whitebread male, and probably a decent enough percentage of brown

>>52322527
Millennial nu-males and women don't understand too many words, so why bother? You can just laugh at them and get more bang for your buck.

>>52322523

>you can't define good but I can still say that you aren't good :^)

Just gonna sum up your resposes.

>>52322542
it's cute that you think you're the only sane man.

>>52322554
see
>>52322094

>>52322527

See but here's the thing, we KNOW killing innocents is evil. We aren't stuck on the definition. We're discussing the results.

But you're just dense. Did you learn debate from /pol/?

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>>52322542
So you're saying you have no real way to support the idea you have, and are just resorting to spamming buzzwords(I mean seriously, that's like the third Millenial and dozenth "nu-male" you've used.) To try and. I dunno, upset people?

I mean c'mon guy, it's not 2007 anymore. Cheap trolls just don't work like they used to.

>>52322552
Innocence is unrelated to Good/ Evil axis, even if you accept these concepts as firmly established.

>>52322554
A few other posters have said sensible things in this thread, so clearly I'm not the only sane man, just one of a few :^)

>>52322573
And yet, like the dirty dumb numale scum you are(assuming you don't have a vagina, which is very much up for debate), keep responding with your roasted ass and giving me attention :^)

>>52322523
Well a child, first off, is innocent. They've not the intent nor the experience to understand being evil. Past that, it is anyone who, in whatever situation of their plausible death, has not acted to bring it forward. Such as a bankrobber, if shot to death by the police trying to escape, was not innocent, but a hapless civillian caught in crossfire, is.

>>52322586
I don't need a vagina, I have a fleshlight. Basically the same thing, works well enough. Still dunno what a nu-male is. Only responding to see if you got anything less stale in you.

I'm kinda already right, anyway, just wondering how long you can keep the shitposting fresh.

>>52322602
The civilian chose a democratically elected leader who helped create bad economical conditions which brought on the bank robbery. Or the civilian supported unelected leader by participating in their society that causes people to rob banks.

Every "innocent" is guilty.

>>52322629
Nu-male stands for "New Male" or "Neutered Male", I've heard both used. It started out as a term to insult tumblr-tier SJWs who were so desperate for female attention that they'd basically try to convince themselves they were super feminist and such in an attempt to be popular with women. Basically the opposite of a "Fedora".

Nowadays nu-male is just a term thrown around casually by people who never really knew what it meant in the first place, but thought using it would make them hip and cool, like how everyone likes to use the insult "cuck" now.

>>52322639
No problem, man. You got (You)s on your obvious bait, and I got to be right. Everyone wins, in the end.

Gotta say though, next time have more buzzwords ready. You were relying on nu-males way too much.

>>52322640
The bank robber is choosing to act like an asshole. He choose to solve his problems with violence, he choose to do what he did.

Circumstances thrown out (Because they don't matter) it's what you choose to do that makes you evil or not. You steal to avoid starving, evil act, feeding orphans with that bread, evil act for good reasons, die of starvation because you choose not to harm anything else, dumb, but good act.

Good is hard, it always will be, evil is easy, it always will be.

>>52322639

>I'm an attention starved manchild :^): The Post.

>>52322668
Thanks for the (You) and the extra assblastedness anon :^)

>>52322640
That logic is flawed as all hell.

>>52322662
This guy gets it, though. Intention is irrelevant, it is the actions that are defined morally. Rip out the heart of an innocent child, you're doing something evil.

Sure, you can save a thousand more children in your eternal undeath. I mean I doubt you would, mind eroding from the necro-madness and all, but even if you DID.

You have still done a horrible evil to do so, and are still evil at the end of the day. Good deeds don't balance out evil.

>>52321149
MAGNUS DID NOTHING WRONG

>>52322662
That presumes an equal playing field. A king throws a wasteful banquet and leaves peasants starving for weeks, a peasant poaches an elk from kings' forest.

>>52322684

I always end up just feeling bad for yall, honestly. Life must be pain.

>>52322778

.....An attention starved manchild

>>52320513

Nothing. It's a lifestyle choice that is different but we should be tolerant of it.

People should be allowed to do what they want with their own body.

It is wrong to say that tolerating Lich's is a slippery slope to having secret necromancy cults turning innocent people into undead in your town. That is just fear mongering.

Lichs =/= Necromancy

Its 2017 bigots, Lich rights now!

>>52322699
Both acts are a different form of evil, and at different magnitudes.

Still evil.

>>52322778
I love.reading tg posts while in a state of semipooping, just onw more post oh oh god squeeze it squeeeze aaaaah

>>52322831
In my setting, there is a natural lich (literally forgot to die) that sits in his cave interviewing sentient creatures that find him for magic lessons or trinkets and writing history books.

Then again all problems in the setting were caused by a dracolich seeing something like the wall of the lost souls, freaking out and basically send the plane in a collision course to cosmic hell.

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>>52320513
THEY'RE UNDEAD. PURGE 'EM ALL

>>52322687
As I've always said anon, the means justify the ends, not the other way around.

>>52322831
Man, you must have done well in school.

You denied the one gift the god can not offer. You denied your birth rights, the burning will of life. You have killed yourself and yet choose not to die.

>>52320819
Now thats a nice answer.

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>>52320513
It'd take far too fucking long to explain to you OP. So I'll try to summarize it in the quickest way possible.

>Once upon a time, an asshole later named Orcus, back before Magic was Nerfed, because it was Elder scrolls IV/III Tier levels of broken because you could make custom spells casted a Dweomer that killed everyone on his native plane, and flung his soul into the abyss (See Slayer's Guide to the Undead, written by GG himself, this is later referenced pasivvly in future Orcus works)
>General purpose of this was to keep and hoard the control of souls away from the deities, and is what get's souls down to the abyss (debatable and probably the reason this is never anymore referenced outright in official material)
>Before all of this, regarding the mysteries surrounding the birth of the Divine, a Massive Living Planar body gave it's life to create the first Deities
>Immediately regretted it in everlasting decaying-half life and seeks to end all that is to hopefully recover. (Elder Evils: Atropus)
>The Plane of Negative energy itself, which powers the undead is host to the Planes native will, which is "Kill fucking everything" which is done through a series of it's own Native er, "spirits" similar to that Quest in Neverwinter Nigths 1's 1st campign with that nature spirit you have to go to a plane to mercykill/cure These are called necromatic intelligences, and these run hauntings and the cycle of death with leads to undead that create more and more to fuel the everlasting flow of death and entropy the active will of the plane of negative energy harbours to end all life.

Liches, next to Vampires, are the highest paragons of these tools to this end. It's almost entirely evil in it's application and use, and even intelligent undead have no say in freedom, case in point, Liches cease to have freewill when Atropus shows up, as it's the greatest Undead body of control and enacts "the will" flawlessly with no excess.

>>52321053
If a human gave their own heart to perform the ritual on someone else, would they still count as innocent?

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>>52323495
Following this, Liches are Undead spellcasters who once upon a time, learned a trick to animate their bodies separate from their souls via use of Magic jar, a few specific spells, and a Magical poison crafted from exotic ingredients.

Later on, this process was revised in the 2nd Edition's Van Richten's Guide to Lichdom, as a result of magical Process and the Mandella/butterfly effect occurngn due to the time of troubles which represented the shift from 1e to 2e, canon as shown in the Forgotten Realms comics.

Then Came Vecna's trip to Sigil which Changed everything else in the Universe, leading to 3.5, edition.

By now, the Lich process is more efficient, now there is no more level loss or need for active corpses near the Phylactery, (barring the dracolich, which has an ecological reason for needing a body) as the magical host for one's soul regenerates a body to possess and the actual transformation process is done by the construction of the Phylactery itself in MOST cases, as this was a method devised by study into "accidental" Liches which came to be when a Magic deities took interest in a mage's studies that would often cause them to enter a state of pure unawareness of the outside world, and with this in mind, a force was put into place to extend protection and continuation to a spellcaster until their work was complete, making them oblivious to their own death and continued animation as a Lich as they studied a lengthy magical formula, researched a spell, made a magical item etc- and the new 3.5 Lich creation process was a blend of the 1e-2e as one has the 1e/2e Lich regeneration at level 4 of the Monster class, and at 5, they make the connection to to the plane of negative energy, and thus become undead, and inherit the "will" which makes them evil in most cases, barring they weren't evil before or were getting duped into evil through the ritual itself or patron assitants to the ritual, (Devils and Demons).

>>52323620
The actual rules for becoming a Lich are in actual fact, quite direct, and only left obscure in some cases, but there is long-term running evidence for it in Netherese culture and various D&D supplements that brush up on the concept.

In 3.5 the only issue of Lichdom is actually figuring out how you get your soul into the Phylactery, and that is the DM discretion part.

So you know, that default "Leave it to the DM" stuff they mention in the Monster manual with the Lich, is actually, infact, utter horseshit, because they ended up contradicting themselves anyway.

Orcus has high involvement with Liches, and is hinted at being the patron to their conception noted in Van Richten's guide where he mentions a Tanna'ri being the one behind Liches, but that's it on the Liches actual astute origins.

Also, I should note that Accerak, master of the Tomb of horrors tried to merge his consciousness with the plane of negative energy via what was basically A Lich Power Ritual spliced with an epic ritual/spell but failed and got nuked out of reality into becoming a vestige.

Anyhow, post Lichdom Liches get:
>A direct interface with the Plane of negative energy that supplies them with esoteric knowledge, powers and template stacking
>Age Category benefits
>Salient abiltiies (See Van Richten's guide and Monsters of Faerun for the contiuation of it into 3.5)
>Lichspells
>Lich POWER Rituals
>Lich Artefacts (been a thing since 1e)
And powers so fucking broken it's unfunny.

Vampires theoretically get to become Elder evil, but they're all CE and end up dead before hitting that dangerous stage of horrible broken-ass shit Lyssa Starovich revealed with the aging exploit.

>>52321906
it's not that it should, it's that it just does. you can make being undead in your own setting completely fine and not really an ethical problem. TES is the only fantasy setting i can think of right now where necromancy isn't considered wholly evil (although it is frowned upon).

>>52323673
But to list the broken ass shit Liches can do:
>Stack on the Spellstiched template if the Lich has a bro to do it before he's animated, as Contingency Lich creation is a thing, noted for use in the fall of Netheril
>Get the Enhanced undead Template because aging exploit, fucking Lyssa.
>If specialist Wizard, cast spells from prohibited school of magic, so now you're a generalist specialist
>Create Vassaliches, Lichthralls and special undead that glow with your chosen eyesocket Lich glow effect to see through their eyes and do other stuff
>Lich only magical items
>Lichspeels
>Lich Power rituals, which are do or die rituals that grant immense power from the plane of negative energy
>Poison food by walking near it

Now then, there are GOOD Liches, which are evil Liches that see the error of their ways, and there are ArchLiches, which are Liches that are long term post level 21 Generalist wizards (Most of the time) that have a long history of beating the shit out of necromancers, stealing their stuff, and generally being Elminster Gandalf knockoffs, and took the long term time to shift through cryptic Lich bulshit to figure out what was trash the Outsiders put in to trick people into becoming evil, and they generally disambiguate the bullshit in the entire process till they can ease themselves into performing it without error or needless excess. These guys are basically just "retired" wizards, for lack of a better term.

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>>52323749
To List:
Basic Lich: One in the monster manual throughout the editions
Vassalich: A lich subservient to it's Lich Creator, kind of like a Vampire and Vampire spawn, a Vassalich cannot level unless at it's masters whims, and has it's own phylactery kept by it's master until the vassalich is freed to make it's own proper phylactery, the Vassalich is made by drinking Liquified Lich bone marrow in a ritual, kills the shit out of the drinker.
Lichfiend: A Lich that is an evil outsider, how the fuck it pulls this off is the question of the day, but it's some hardcore shit in theory.
Shadow Lich: A rare creation caused by quaffing a potion designed to turn a person into one of those shadow monsters bound to the plane of shadow from Ravenloft whilst they are on the final days of the Shadow Viruses incubation period. Incredibly powerful, hard to destroy, and it's amazing this never followed on in any manner to Sharan worshippers additionally dims all light sources it's around, and it's touch does the strength drain of a shadow, if taken to 3.5 it would be using the shadow weave or the like.
Defiler Lich: A Lich that powers it's spells using the lifeforce of nature, effectively turning lush forests into deserts within days, a Druid's worst nightmare, was not given better credit it should have because these things are Planar death walking and should be Geomancy nutjobs who bring arcane storms and negative Energy plane features to the table
Drowlich: A Drow with the Lich Template, allegedly slightly more powerful because the Drow's unique blend of evil makes it that way or something, a d20 book has it's own Drowlich template for 3.5
Banelich: A Lich that is a cleric for the Big guy, the Masketta man of the Black hand, pretty high level notably.

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>>52323853
>Banelich
Tell me about Bane!
Why is his phylactery the mask?

>>52323853
Baelnorm: Elven faggotry made unliving, elves get to become Liches because their creator deity said so, is either made under approval with phylactery and ritual or is directly made a baelnorm by elf deities so IT CAN NEVER DIE EVER. They usually guard elven libraries, family stuff, or are involved in covering up the latest Elven fuckup that screws everyone in the planes over, also their transformation is usually done through the divine, not arcane, though Kharlat Jhareg is one example of a self-made baelnorm (that fucked up)
Archlich: Just an Undead wizard that get's to keep their alignment with not much else to benefit from.
Psionic Lich: The canon ones haven't been relevant for ages, and Pathfinder technically did their transformation better, most people just use Astral seed now anyhow, they're made by shoving all their known psi-points into a phylactery till they loose all their levels and die, and if they succeed, they become Psionic Liches
Lich (Spelljammer): Weaker than the actual basic Lich, these guys are Liches equivalent to the Roman Centurion Genral Pious, the 'Liche' from the Gamecube game, Eternal Darkness, where they gain temporary lichdom from the patronage of Elder evil, Far realm entities or the like.
Firelich: If you ever fuckup becoming a Lich, total nonexistence, Vestigedom, a one way trip to the Abyss or this is what awaits you. Your soul is set on everlasting eternal agonizing fire as you fly through the universe as a screaming skull that smacks into spaceshits as a desperate attempt to put out the fire.
There's also
Alhoon:
And Illithid Lich, doesn't have all the abilities due to that spell resistance Illithid have
Mummy Lich: A very fucking obscure Lich part of the Shadows of Unrentide questline, basically It's a Cleric Lich, but it doesn't ever fucking stop coming back from the dead until you nuke it's phylactery, none of that wait a few days crap, it comes back to rot your ass out, in a few minutes.

There's only one lich in my setting and he did it because he was chasing immortality and his beloved (who also tried to achieve immortality, but more or less failed).

I didn't add any god bullshit because it's cliche and lame. There are gods in my setting but generally speaking they're player/man made and faith is a font of power in its own, warped by the aether and those that harness it.

His waifu basically became the goddess of death due to people worshipping her after she died, and her soul was more or less warped by faith of others.

He got around this by placing his physical body in the aether, which basically stopped the aging process but he can't eat/sleep/enjoy anything and is generally pretty miserable. He's a spooky spectral skeleton.

Necromancy was a legit religion in my setting, and prisoners/criminals were often executed and resurrected as thralls and used for physical labour and after their penance was finished they were put back to rest.

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>>52323997
Dry Lich: A Lich made from the Walker in the Wastes Prestige class, a class suited for clerics who value harsh desert deities or Druids who like sand a lot, Dry Liches hate water as it does the same damage as holy water to them, and Dry Liches are basically Tomb kings, complete with the ability to cause mass heat, dehydration and Drought, in addition to generating infinite pocket sand for combat abuse, instat killing pocket sand, and infinite salt through Salt mummies they're made by assistance of another Dry Lich placign organs in Canopic jars which are cheaper to make than other Lich phylacteries, and they basically get more than one phylactery, and a longer regeneration time because of this, which is a negative.
Suel Lich: In a desperate attempt to not get Nuked, by meteors Suel spellcasters TURNED THEIR FUCKING SOULS INTO NEGATIVE ENERGY (what an oxymoron) and hopped from body to body as nasty ass fucking Suel Liches, beings that can rot a bitch out if they posses you like the fucking Adventure time Lich, and set your ass alight with a special attack known as blackfire, and have an aura of terror, yeah, not fear, terror, you DIE if you fail to save. They're pretty easy to kill when their bodies are taken care of, but notably, because their lifeforce is now dwindling negative energy, and they steal people's bodies, you could theoretically stack this with Dry Lichdom because the Suel Lich has an everlasting supply of Organs to shove into canopic jars this way, because it's lifeforce is negative energy, and thus easy to bottle. Too bad these guys are all but gone, or at least so rare, only being an Archivist and epic level could justify being one.

The fact that you are dancing around with the corpse of a dead loved one will not net you many fans.

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>>52324063
Oh right, lastly there's a fruit tree in Ebberron or Dark sun which if you eat from, turn you into a Lich.

Yeah, even I got nothing on that one. After this there's DracoLiches and Demiliches, and that's about it.

Notably, I will mention that ANY Lich can become a Demilich, per Epic level handbook rules, and Demiliches can do the following
>Contact any EVIL aligned outsider anywhere under a constraint given by the Dm
>Make 100 clones of itself pre-demilichdom (100 fucking Lich clones)
>Control the weather over a massive radius meaning it can fuck things up with natural disasters, arcane storms, or the black rain, a nasty weather effect that hampers divine spellcasting, this ability lets the Demilich set up an army on the fly
>Control a headless body by removing it's head and placing it's own on it, this is shown in BG and in the canon Forgotten Realms Comics

>All of it's regular Lich benefits, rich-ass dungeon shit, and class levels + contingencies and Lich power rituals to top this off.

>>52324155
Oh right, I forgot!
Elemental Liches: A ravenloft centric Lich that connects it's powers to the dark powers of ravenloft to summon 3 types of elemental as a part of it's Lichdom package, and get's deadly touch attacks that can automatically fuck someone over, with permanent paralysis followed with constant bleeding, or an attack that causes one's skeleton to explode out of the body, immediately killing them if they don't get saved/a real good heal check, and another which ignites a foe, and another which IMMEDIATELY TRIES TO SHIFT THE VICTIMS ALIGNMENT TO CHAOTIC EVIL AS THEY BECOME THE LICHES THRALL. Yeah, that's right, there is a Lich that goes out of it's way to bitchslap it's victims to death.

That should be it.

>>52320845
Preferably literally.

>>52324335
>Prepare to die evil-doer!
>*Lichslap!*
>*HAIL THE DARK LORD*
>Immediate Ex-Paladin Blackguard
>Lich turns him into a death knight afterwards
>OCC "What the fuck?"
>DM: WELCOME TO RAVENLOFT MOTHERFUCKER

>>52321063
Except fall-out and lose direct influence over Karrnath's government

Why is this fucking thread still up?

>>52325219
Ravenloft

>>52320513
They are literally anchors for the plane of negative energy.

D&D has on objective morality system and the plane is what they interpret as "evil".

In any other setting they still would never be nice because their very existence harms the mortal plane and any decent creature forced to become something like that would seek to either cure or kill themselves. Liches who seek out their state or don't care are fine being anathema to life. Generally speaking if this doesn't make you evil it at least makes you an asshole.

>>52320513
I jerked off to this thread ... pleasure from social discord.

In 1e, there are three alignments: Law, Neutral, and Chaos. These have no direct relationship with the human concept of law, instead being related to the concept of self-determination. An example of being Chaotic would be accepting the rule of an eldritch being that views mere mortals as little better than cattle. If you are a lich, you are by definition an eldritch being that uses humans as resources, both in originally propelling yourself to lichdom and in maintaining your phylactery in working order.

You can be a Neutral or even Lawful lich, but then you would regret having used other people (innocent or not) as mere grist for your transformation, and have trouble maintaining your phylactery.

>>52321696
Deus Vultfags are worse than true weeaboos.

>>52325861
Don't forget 1e Liches put unwanted parts of their memories or Psyche into their own unique phylacteries, namely things like guilt for example.

>>52322055
>>buzzword buzzword buzzword

That you've reduced much of your thought to "lol I troll lol" is genuinely amazing and more than a little sad.

You could probably be so much more than this.

Inb4 cuck cuck misandry the nu-male library single mothers women reeee

>>52322879
>>mfw people who speak English in the year 2017 think feeding orphans with stolen food is evil

Wew lad.

Wew.

>>52321335
You ever read Crime and Punishment? Essentially the idea is that when you commit evil now to do good in the future, the only thing that's guaranteed is the evil act your doing now. What if your evil acts make a group of paladins show up and cave your skull in and destroy your phylactery before you do all the good things? Then you've only done evil.

Delayed righteousness can't work because you don't control the world even if you rule it, and you don't know the future.

>>52320513
They smell bad

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>>52327473
It's only Justice if there's a Victim.

Also, I JUST remembered Lichdom requires the heart of any sentient or sapient being, between 1-3 days old, freshly cut out, spellcaster hearts are preferable.

That's one of the Evil pitfalls in the ritual, actually. The workaround is using your own heart, which makes this Just and Pure, though that requires help

Also, There are no documented examples of a the Elixir of Deliberation being used for anything OTHER than killing it's brewer in the process of becoming a Lich, as this thing kills someone stone dead without hope of resurrection. This is perfect for a rogue, next to that fucking canonical poison that can be made from Deity blood that Instantly kills a Deity, haha, holy fuck why isn't that used more often?

>>52327827
Well yeah, if you can find a loop hole to become a lich to without harming or effecting anyone else there's not really a moral element to it, morality is about your effect on other people.

But according to the 2e definition that I that this reply chain was responding to, you also have to eat souls which is about as evil as you can get.

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>>52328028
That was part of maintenance of one's Lichdom back before 3.5 and onwards. Nowadays only that Gith-bitch does that and Demiliches, the benefits of Soul consumption have become extremely underplayed, mostly limited to choice spells, monster abilities or class features that only utilize little of what is involved in such processes.

Doesn't help either they often cop out the world Soul with "life-force" which is the composite energies that make the soul up, in most of the conext they put it in, except when they don't and it's got some sort of life-span related context instead.

But yeah, VR's Liches are Evil because ravenloft pretty much always. Notably, Lich degredation was initially tied to Demilichdom, 3.5 and onward Both states are permanent.

Worst sort of nondemi Lich to Encounter would probably be a Elemental Lich with the Soulstealer base class and that class dedicated to Soul-consumption, probably with some Lichspells and salient abilities to boot.

>>52328248
>>52328248
Whoops, let me rephrase.
But yeah, VR's Liches are Evil because Demiplane of dread. Notably, Lich degredation was initially tied to moving up (or down, based on initial perspective) to Demilichdom, back when it was sort of a bad thing for liches when it was something they wished to avoid, after 3.5 and onwards Lichdom and Demilichdom are independent permanent states that didn't require maintenance.

>>52321817
>the nazi card
I hate you so much.

>>52328248
>>52328315
Okay then same principle applies, if you can do it without harming/effecting others or becoming beholden to beings that do harm others like Orcus, then there's not really a moral element to it, so you could potentially be a lawful good lich. However, in universe don't you become like filled with negative energy that trends your soul towards evil?

I'm not saying it's impossible to be a good lich, it's probably just very hard.

>>52328601
Yes, it is very hard, hence why there are few Archliches or Redeemed Liches. Except fucking Baelnorms which get to do it for free, without consequence or matter. Also, Initially It's all down to how thew ritual is performed through what given methods there are available, Phylactery is core, but the poison can be supplemented via Outsider assistance, whether good or evil, or through a particular outsiders ability to grant boons when bound, a Devils use of limited wish, or other types of patronage, then there's stealing the ritual outright as it is in progress (Lichie Lich) machinated rituals, varied phylactery functionality with application and use (See the shit the Twisted rune pull off) Contingency based (netherese wizards) and Vile Evil sort (Also netheril, but mentioned in two Vecna based excerpts) (The Lichdom most are commonly familiar with in commiting a number of evil acts to become a Lich as a part of, or leading up to said ritual)

A lot of Lich Rituals you see, are blended in with lies, intrigue, misinformation supplied from the various powers in the planes, so yes, unless you're a fucking faggot elf, you're in for a bad time, unless you get lucky with a relatively unmolested Ritual procedure involved.

Nymphs are for example, one of the known species that Hoard the knowledge required for Lichdom, and creatures capable of casting Legend lore out the ass.

In Ravenloft, which is the holding ground for "Assholes so bad we can't let them out, I.E Strahd with his Strahd Zombies which would spell necromancer rape planeswide" is a place where outsiders react with the demiplane in such a way it warps the fabric of reality and affects Mutliple cosmic forces of evil, so Lichdom is something never taken without numerous forms of influence out to corrupt instantaneously.

>>52329118
Summoning of an outsider to learn the secrets of Lichdom is tricky at best, and one is utterly fucked unless they've the diplomatic intrigue and cunning to bind a Demon with the knowledge that isn't doing the good old "Get this desperate asshole to do excessive evil shit to feed me the souls required as a payoff for transforming him using my powers, or what power I gain from his "patronage and transaction" In the case of Kharlat Jhareg, who would have succeeded in his trasformation which only required him to place his soul in the Phylactery."

Vecna's supply of the transformation is tainted beyond repair, as his dedication to evil as a cosmic force is second to none, though the book contains insight on initial phylactery construction cheapening the process for those undergoing the transformation.

Getting Orcus to help you? Damnation every time unless you know his True name, which is actually depicted in the Dragon magazine, Orcus help is an instant loss, because that fat bastard is who all the plebs, necrophiliacs and idiotic sycophants follow, you literally have to be STD-ridden to join him, and his thralldom grants disease spreading abilities, a horrible stench and his mark, he's basicallly the kind of monster that Evil elite would worship, think Spirit-cooking shit.

Now Bane's transformation? I honestly have no fucking clue other than "Fist people in the face for Tyranny enough, and Bane will let you do it even harder with your literally bare knuckles." Which is funny, because Bane I think does his Lich transformation via divine ritual, which means if he wasnt an evil deity, you'd basically be a Baelnorm, but no, you're a banelich, and thus,"Necessary evil" Ever notice Bane's holy symbol is literally the banemask?.

>>52329135
The best teacher is probably the Dread Necromancer/Philosopher Necromancers, which are the Necromancers Literally born with the talent to pratice the art, as Dread necromancer was the base class which provides Lichdom at level 20 which immediately has you craft the Phylactery as if from insight, similar to the automatic urge a Pale master gets to make their graft arm, it's Iconic PC being non-other than Kazerabet, the Undead Empress from the 2e Necromancers handbook, exemplifying this, they're already evil, but probably know the transformation process in it's raw unfiltered state.

The Other method? Lot's of adventuring and getting a knowledgeable nymph to like you, making it to epic level at the bare minimum, a league of Undead Smashing sessions will probably provide the groundwork to begin the omitting of "nice try Evil alignment spectrum" lore and knowledge checks to make the groundwork for Archlichdom, so one can say "oh hey malignant will of the plane of negative energy, come right in! Oh wait, nah, fuck off, but I'll keep the connection though, Oh hey Orcus! Yeah fuck you buddy, take your fat ass to the curb.

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>>52329165
Most effective method?
Ritual site being based on a good Leyline point, not a desecrated ruin, or temple, has a good place for moonlight to shine upon, the Poison, though if done incredibly sucesfully Phylactery construction might place the soul in it through concentration alone if one has the materials to go through the five step stages of the process without interupption or break, an assistant, possibly a Nymph or other knowledgeable non-evil outsider, if evil outsider, making sure it's bound good and proper with 0 sphere's of influence when overseeing the ritual and of course before all that, making sure this creature and it's bullshit didn't fuck you over, and possibly a noble and good goal for extending one's life into stasis, sanitizing your eventual connection to the plane of negative energy to the most base of values without feedback influence (See Lich power rituals, Negative plane corruption such as things involving the foreign school of necromancy, (mentioned in UA) Orcus's gained ability that shifts him through a living and more dead like form post his brush with a sphere of annhilation as tennebrous, how the Pale Master's class progression works, half undead, Deathwalker and the other class for gnomes with the same features presented.)

To explain that, the Negative energy plane and it's active will is implied to have something of a Record of all the undead that exist, and there are those that brush up with it, through study, death or overexposure without forging a connection to it and becoming undead, (Mortibund, Tomb-tained and more) may gain qualities of those patron to it's powers.

Liches literally get to call upon these through Lich power rituals.

>>52322082
>#lichexistancesmatter
fixed that for you

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>>52329203
But, moving on, dealing with evil is all encompasing when taking on the work of the most infamous paragon of the undead, you've got Negative Energy corruption, Vile Corruption, Taint, Diabolic corruption, Abyssal corruption, danger of a tomb tainted soul, total everlasting inferno oblivion as a firelich or ending up erased from existence with no hope for return or resurrection (If you get lucky you may end up a wraith or shadow) deific punishment, stasis by deity of law and justice.

Or you could try and paragon schools of magic that offer alternative forms of immortality that aren't necromancy, because why the fuck is Lichdom the first thing that comes to fucking mind? Is it because Faerun is fucking INFESTED with them?

That, or you're Lichie Lich, the Luckiest motherfucker un-live, who literally counterspelled himself into Lichdom by accident then wrote a book on it which accidentally influenced a lot of people into practicing necromancy anyway.

Wait, no, he's the second luckiest, the other guy was a Wizard specialist Necromancer, who on the dawn of his ascension accidentally hooked on a piece of Divinity that Kanchelsis, God of all Vampires and the first of their kind, let stray from himself on a whim and accidentally ascend to Demigodhood with the domain of Luck and promotion of "Good luck with that unholy ascension Lichbros" as his dogma.

From that, it's still unknown whether Fiend Folio Kanchelsis or the one in forgotten faiths DM entry is the correct one, because there is evidence from this to imply he went from Immediate deity to demigod because of this, or because of Orcus's latent hoarding and subversion of Vampire worship with the Vampire Lord Ritual he is credited for in 4e (though it was in 3.5 as a web enhancement to begin with) due to Kanchelsis being the definition of CE vampire that has lived too long.

>>52320571
Archlich says hello.