Orcs and Goblins

>>52314595
Goblins and Orcs

Niggers and Jews

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Has there ever been a better depiction of goblins than John Howe's concepts for LotR?

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>>52314667
Has there ever been a better depiction of goblins than Tolkien's?

>>52314704
Depends what you mean by better. I'm a fan of a sexy goblin myself.

>>52317991
When was the shift suddenly made to make the goblins a trade race? DnD era, or was that a Warcraft thing?

>>52318046
Warcraft definitely, making them the engineering counterpart for the Horde.

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>>52314667
This.
My first great disappointment of the Hobbit movies were the shitty inbred cavemen designs they chose to do instead.

So, I know in default D&D, Orcs and Goblins are completely different things, but I NEED them to be related somehow. I'm having trouble in the worldbuilding department explaining where they fit in in relation to each other (and Hobgobs and Bugbears too). I know the Tolkien answer is "it's all the same shit", but I'm thinking I want to try and go a little deeper than that.

So, are they related in your campaign? If so how related are they, and in what ways?

>>52323715
Why have Orcs when Hobgoblins can fill the same niche anyways, without having to explain why Orcs and Goblins are related?

>>52323715

Goblins created orcs to act as their soldiers against the human mercenaries that the elves were bringing in on their side of the great war. Orcs were designed to be bigger than humans, stronger than humans, about as smart as humans and to breed for larger numbers.

This made the orcs excellent warriors, but the goblins put too much trust in their magical safeguards to keep the orcs in line. When the orc rebellion came, it hit the goblins hard. Orc rebellions from within + human and elven attacks from without lead to the total implosion of goblin civilization. Most died, a few fled, and many were taken as slaves by the orcs.

Its been a long time, so you almost never see a civilized goblin anymore. Their civilization has been snuffed out. What most people know as goblins are the feral, degenerate slaves of orc raised alongside the orcish warparties and subjected to short and cruel lives by their brutish masters. No sign of the great civilization that once rivaled the elves can be seen in them.

The few goblins that did manage to escape and rebuild are known as Hobgoblins. They are rarer, but have scraps of their culture they still cling to and are much more organized.

Bugbears are a myth.

>>52323742
Honestly, it's because of Half-Orc player characters. I could just rename Half-Orcs Hobgoblins, I guess.

>>52323781
Cool. Is the bugbear that doesn't exist just like D&D bugbears, or is it more of bugaboo/bogeyman type thing?

>>52323802
Just because it's in the book doesn't mean you have to use it. You could easily just say that there are no Half-Orcs because the world doesn't have Orcs.

>>52323825
Intellectually, I know that, but some weird thing in me always wants to at least try and think of a way to include everything.

>>52323822

I don't feel obligated to include everything in the dnd manual in my setting by default. That just results in every story taking place in the same generic hodgepodge.

For example, in this same campaign dwarves don't exist at all (goblins sort of stole their role, lorewise) and elves are not PC playable (trying to prevent an expansionist human noble from triggering a war with the elves was the early game conflict, and the crux of that conflict was that going to war with the elves was essentially suicide. Manifest destiny doesn't save you from an army whose basic footsoldier has five times as much fighting experience as your most veteran master. That setup would fall pretty flat if you had a level 2 elvish horsefucker in the party to go "but wait, I'M weak as shit."