Count-Up & Action Tick Combat Systems

Bumping for interest.

I've never played systems that followed this setup, and have always been to leery of it to pursue it into playtest stage. Seems like a classic example of something that'll really, really slow the game down for that 80% of players who aren't as good at math. (Okay, I'm at tick 129, and this action takes 8 ticks plus 4 because of (modifier), so that means I'm next acting on tick 133? no, 143? Oh, 141? sorry.")

>>52301824
Glad I'm not the only one. Incidentally there is a fairly obvious solution to your worry of tick bloat. Periodically resetting the tick counter to 0 after a certain number has passed? Or perhaps any time when all players have an action available?

>>52301824
>>52301925
Though that seems like a slightly sloppy solution really. Another solution would be to subtract 10 from the tick counter every time each combatant has completed an action beyond the 10th tick?

Really though I have braced myself for the fact that this may need a more serious solution. I am seriously considering developing some companion software for phone/tablet/laptop which can handle the tricky number tracking and maths. I could whip something up in Java if I really needed to.

>>52301925
Instead of ticking up, you could tick down.

Player 1 has an action set to go in 2 ticks.
Player 2 has an action set in 4 ticks.
Badguy has an action set for 3 ticks.

>Tick

Player 1 is down to 1 tick.
Player 2 is down to 3.
Badguy is down to 2.

>>52301445
Sounds like an uncomfortable system. Wouldn't it be easy to game it by moving out of the way in most encounter?

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>>52301984
Oh my god you absolute legend, how did I not think of this. That's the solution right there.

>>52302124
You know it's funny, you're not the first to bring this up but I don't understand why. This is not a problem in my eyes. In reality, if you are in danger of ranged attack you don't just fucking stand there. Remember this is a two way street, it gives the same options to both the players and the enemies. What I also appreciate about this is that it lends itself to more tactical thinking about combat and more consideration of terrain and environment which I think is awesome.

>>52301984
>>52302184
I'm trying to think of why there doesn't need to be a global tick counter that gradually progresses and so far I have found no justification for such a thing. Your idea of a count-down seems like such a staggeringly obvious way of reducing number confusion I'm not quite sure why no other system uses it. I keep getting this niggling paranoia that there is some fatal flaw I'm not seeing.

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>>52301445
Exalted, Second Edition. Also Scion, which is a slightly streamlined version of the same system.

Ran a campaign for 3 years, with varied scenarios that used "combat time" (the tick system). The combat mechanics are fairly crunchy, the player options are extensive, and not always well balanced, so I developed "combat encounter fatigue" towards the end.

However, I would note that Exalted's tick system draws more from fighting games like Street Fighter, so the "duration" of an action is more like a cool-down. You launch a Speed 4 punch on Tick 1, you resolve the attack on that same Tick, and then you are not able to act again until 4 Ticks have passed (so, Tick 5). Since actions typically have a defense penalty built in, this mimics the idea in fighting games that certain moves leave you vulnerable for several frames.

>>52302418
>not quite sure why no other system uses it.

What other systems have you looked at?

>>52302469
Yes I have examined Exalted and the reason I didn't follow that exact method is because I wanted something more realistic and less "gamey". It would be senseless replacing the game-like nature of turns with something equally absurd as "cooldowns" (if anything that's worse). Nonetheless, I'm interested to hear the way it played out. I love crunchy mechanics so that's cool. Did you find it made combat too slow paced and drawn out or was pacing fine?

>>52302493
Just in general? Fuckloads. But I assume you mean about the combat system. The only ones I could find that had any similarity to what I had in mind were, Hackmaster, Exalted/Scion, Shadowrun, Aces and Eights, Savage Worlds, Runequest, and Feng Shui. I did my research, I'm serious about this. Obviously Hackmaster and Aces & Eights were the primary inspiration

>>52302214
I just can't imagine it being very fun to paly with in a tabletop sense. You're looking at a map of a huge forest, or a house.

Turn one, you move here because you don't think the enemy can get into cover from that position.
Then the enemy moves to shoot you.
Then you move back into cover.
Then the enemy wastes his actions or gets some points back.
...
Either he gets to go and he moves into your room
then you get ready to shoot him
and he runs away

or you get to move into his room
then he gets ready to shoot you
and you run away

When will it end?
It's probably just gonna be a battle of wills. I activate overwatch and sit here like an ass.
If you move in, you're gonna be at a disadvantage but I sure as hell aint gonna make the first move.

>>52302718
Perhaps I should clarify setting. This game I'm making is tied to a sort of post industrial/pre modern era. Firearms are not advanced at this point and shooting once is pretty much all you have before what is usually a lengthy reload. Plenty of time in which to close to melee range. Or alternatively have your allies flank them while they remain in cover and you lay down some sort of suppresion with something faster like a bow.

>>52302548
Ultimately, all representations of time-keeping in games are abstractions. Some unrealistic abstractions serve playability, which I am increasingly coming to believe is the most important part of a rule-set. I respect your quest for realism, but urge you not to dismiss abstraction where it might serve your greater design goals.

But enough of my philosophy. Exalted/Scion's tick system worked quite well in and of itself. At its best, it created a clear "flow" of events, and kept the players interested in the actions of all parties, not just their own character. I highly recommend trying to run a fight using the Scion version of the rules, just to get a feel for how it plays.

I don't know if the tick system had a flaw of its own, so much as the rest of the system (Exalted) tended to bleed away its merits. There were so many player (and NPC) options, and they could hook into so many different steps of combat resolution, that combat tended to slow to a crawl. Add in powers to grant half a dozen attacks as a single action, powers to nullify an attack wholesale, maybe multiple NPCs built with similar numbers of options as the PCs, and the whole thing could became a slog.

I guess my biggest suggestion is to make sure that actual resolution is as streamlined as possible, because I think that is a bigger sticking point than the use of Ticks or Rounds or whatever.

Personally, I think what would actually be the easiest way to handle it is with physical markers you move along a track. If my action takes 5 ticks, I move my character's marker 5 spaces down the track. The person/party that acts next is always the one furthest back. Characters in a "holding" state could all be placed on some bigger piece denoting whatever point in time the action is currently at.

>>52302817
Ahh that's all very helpful, thanks. And yes I'm aware the "quest for realism" has it's risks but I think with the vast amount of more gamey/abstracted systems available I should offer an alternative to others like myself who find them unsatisfying. It's that clear flow that I really value, that natural progression of events that turns just trash entirely

Yeah I figured with this level of granularity that I would need to keep each tick as quick as possible, so the rest of the system needs to be quick to resolve. Minimising numbers of rolls necessary where possible is the plan. Luckily in keeping with the theme of realism there aren't gonna be ridiculous godly ninja types who can cast like a dozen spells and attack a bunch of dudes all in one turn. Abilities and stuff are gonna be pretty grounded. I'm looking to Song of Swords/Riddle of Steel for inspiration as far as combat actions go