Can demons fall in love with humans, /tg/?

>>52235523

Pic related, but I'd say no. Demons are creatures made out of pure evil, what they might call love will turn out to be only a sick, twisted pantomime of honest emotion. If you're okay having an abusive relationship with a cold-blooded sociopath who'll never truly love you, then have at, I guess?

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>>52235627

Huh, I must have pushed cancel instead of open when I selected the pic.

>>52235523
Evil love.

>>52235681
This. Love can be fucked up.

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>>52235523
Evil is at its heart about selfishness, where Good is about selflessness, sacrifice and all that. Neutral being something in between where you pretty much mostly care about yourselves but not really too much at the expense of others.

Spoilers, but say, Joel in TLOU would be very much evil. Even if that's not a romantic love, it's still love and sacrificing the many for the few.

If demons truly are personified evil, then of all the extraplanar creatures, they'd be the most likely to fall into love, selfishly disregarding everything but them and their loved one.

Angels would be the opposite, with a utilitarian end-justifies-the-means the few for the many outlook.

Of course, this depends on the setting, but much like SMT the chaos/law paradigm or selfishness/selflessness portrayal makes demons and angels a lot more interesting and cool than just 'lets go burn down an orphanage'.

>>52235523
Depends on the setting.

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>>52235523
depends on how the setting portrays demons, are they literally oozing raw evil or just assholes who get kicks from burning down an orphanage?

>>52235523
I'll say yes, but it's something ultimately twisted and awful, OR it's a redeeming quality that might well be the catalyst for the demon spiritually mutating into something that's not a demon anymore.

Sepends on the detting.

>>52235523
Demons would have to be real first.

Love too.

>>52235523
yes

but for devils that is usually expressed as a desire to own you, a selfish love where they still want to make you happy, but all of your happiness must come from them. They want to monopolize you, every smile must be for them.

Depends on setting.

>>52235523
maybe? It would not be a healthy relationship

1, Depends on the setting

2, If you want to bait people into posting hot, sexy demons the you should post a few next time.

>>52235827
If you're going biblical, the devil was never a force of evil. It was Dante's Jesus fanfiction that made demons out to be so evil.

At their root, demons are just angels that sided with Lucifer, and apparently did in fact fall in love with humans, as one of the reasons why God flooded the earth wasn't just because it was tainted with sin, but the children of man and angels were being born and god was pissed that man found a work around for his apple punishment thing.

Hell even the story of the white of Babylon was just Christ fags being butt mad that the Romans didn't like being told they couldn't jack off, had to chop off the tip of their dick, and couldn't have their kick ass gods of war, building shit, unparalleled beauty, wisdom, wine Band getting shitfaced, et cetera.

By the book, demons, angels who opposed the authority of God for some great fucking reasons, could and actually did fall in love and did do the do with women.

Devil's on the other hand, completely different matter compared to demons.

>>52235523
demons can fall in love, but more on the "you're mine" side of things.

>>52235523
I hope so

Defecting female demons is a favorite of mine

What would qualify as 'love' (as opposed to lust or simple infatuation) might vary from culture to culture, but from a Judeo-Christian lens, survey says 'not likely'. Granted, canonical scriptures don't speak at length about the exact nature of demons, aside from the fact that they are 'dark spirits'. But when they are mentioned, love (be it romantic or platonic) is not a byproduct of their involvement in mortal affairs. Your heart won't skip a beat unless the demon makes you endure frequent seizures.

Such a being might THINK it feels love, but that might realistically translate into something more possessive. And that was a deliberate choice of words on my part.

The young mage got kicked out of academy and disgraced, because he summoned a demoness and offered the soul of his firstborn for a favor, the favor being to have a child with the demoness.

Over the course of the game it went from a one-sided hateful ex wife style estranged relationship like two divorced parents juggling custody of the child back and forth between the mortal plane and hell, to at the end kind of a mutual understood love. And when finally the mage died and obviously his soul went to hell, it wasn't tormented too much. The demoness would maintain it's because of the child sticking up for dear old dad's soul and guilting mom into going easy, but we all know it's because she ended up with a soft spot for that hopeless fool.

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>>52235523
But that's a dragon.
And she belongs to Anne.

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>>52235523
Yes, but it's almost always the yandere kind.

>>52235523

Yandere succubus latching on some compeltely unremarkable mortal is my magical realm.

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>>52235523
No, it's a ruse always smite the demon.

>>52235827
This... Is actually a really strong point.

Fuck, now you've got me thinking about a yandere succubus bbeg.

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>>52237630
>>52237901
>succubus BBEG deliberately creates a difficult but not impossible adventure to train the unremarkable mortal into a legendary hero

>>52235523
Depends on the setting and the definition of just about every word in your question.

Easy answer, No. Demons are being of complete evil cast out of heaven's light. Love, actual love, is based on said warmth. Demons fail.

>>52238061
Lookin' to make a Beowulf for top-tier babbys?

Certainly, the Abyss holds worse fates.

>>52235523
No. Demons don't have any real emotions, everything you see is a carefully constructed facade meant to further some objective. They drop one mask and switch to a new one the moment it's not useful anymore.

>>52235523
>>52235523
>>52235523
>>52235523
>>52235523
SECONDARIES GET OUT

SEE THE SILVER SKELETON ADVENTURE YOU FUCKING LOSERS AND MAYBE SOME PLANESCAPR FOR DAT REDEEMED SUCCUBUS

MALCHANTET IS MARRIED, THO HER HUSBAND AN OMNI-KEK, GRAZ'ZT IS IN A HATEFUCK RELATIONSHIP ORCUS HAS SO MANY CHILDREN IT ISN'T EVEN FUNNY

D&D SUCCUBI ARE MADE OF CONCENTRATED SHIT TASTE BECAUSE MALCHANTHET A BITCH FOR SLAANESH BAD TOUCH KIND OF PLEASURE

READ YOUR FUCKING ECOLOGIES AND DEMONOMICON OF IGGLWILVS

>>52235523
May I recommend Night's Master by Tanith Lee. Demonic Prince falls in love with gorgeous human female. It's a series of books, title above is the first book. They are pretty good stories too.

>>52235523
I think that if its possible for angels to fall and become evil, then there isn't really any reason why a demon can't rise. So, I'd say it probably would depend on the setting, but I wouldn't rule them out.

I'd say they can, but a demon keeps what it loves. If it falls out of love, it will kill what it loves so nothing else can love what it did.

>>52238388
>ORCUS HAS SO MANY CHILDREN

Is there a list or something of them?

>>52235827
>Joel in TLOU
Firefly go and stay go. First damn thing they do with Ellie, the only known immune person in the world, is fucking try and cut her skull open to access her brain. This is ignoring the fact that they would never spread the cure properly anyways, using it as a political tool to try and topple the government.

>>52238510
>Demonic Prince falls in love with gorgeous human female

>female

Nope. Night's Master begins with the Demon Prince having an incestuous love with his adopted son.

>>52239008
They have a daughter together (Azhriaz) who was definitely hybrid Human-Demon in terms of powers. I'll admit it's been more than 2 decades since I read the book, but I do seem to recall a relationship with a female at some point.

>>52239291
Azhriaz isn't in Night's Master. She doesn't come in until the later books of the Tales from the Flat Earth series.

>>52239421
That's my mistake then, I read it the first time as an omnibus of all books, so they do blend together a little bit. :)

>>52239421
>>52239454
I just hope they continue the re-releases of the books, I bought the first 3 re-released ones, but they stopped when Tanith Lee died last year.

>>52235523
There is no difference between a man and demon beyond alignment, I am sure a chaotic evil demon could fall in love with a chaotic evil man

>>52235523
Only if it's bad romance.


ga ga ula-la

>>52238061
>what is Re:Zero

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>>52235523
Demons are just fallen angels

Angels fall when they reject God

God is love

So by making a demon fall in love, you can convert them back to being Angels

>>52240122
>not wanting to play around with an extraplanar deadly demon girl that head over heels for you and submit her to your will while still having her as a demon
There's nothing better than overpowering something that's normally far beyond your ability. Bonus points if she's willing to give up on evil deeds after a single night of dicking.

I always loved the trope of a succubi being a virgin who brags about all her fake "conquests" but panics if you actually try to dick her

Only in the anime world, OP.

>>52236579
So what's with the bits about endless torture in hell?

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>>52235523
I don't see why not.

>>52237477
GRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUEA

>>52235523

Almost!

Eludecia the Succubus Paladin

she fell in love with an Angel

Said Angel thought she was hot and that redeeming her would impress his peers and boss

So she set off on the way of the Paladin

And now every day is a challenge to not fall back into her old ways

I don't see why not. Sure demons would admire one another's horns, smile with fangs, how they enslave souls, taste of decor. You know those sorts of things.

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>>52240078

>>52238520
Why is it possible for angels to fall? They're literally made of good.

They can make you think they fell in love. 100% of the time it's a scheme or trap.

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>>52238886
You know what? I've seen people talk about it, but I've never actually seen the kids.

Iggwilv and Graz'zt's kids are present in multiple adventures, one wants to fuck her daddy, one a vampire at the end of a quest, and also PC players as there is a feat for being one of her kids, Graz'zt was part of the Pale Nights litter in an attempt to create a king of the Abyss she could marry (And she literally fucked Nyralathotep to do it, notably funny as she's the D&D proxy for the Nameless Mist which birthed Nyralathotep, which means Nyralathotep by his Elder Evil Proxy alias fucked his mother to create children so his proxy Obrintyh mother could fuck and marry them, and THIS is why Graz'zt has the extra digits, because he is some kind of Special Inbred, despite being the physical embodiment of BBC and was general successful in his duels against Orcus before Demogogron showed up after the Queen of Chaos lost her part in being relevant.

As for Orcus, Check these sources out for his possible children, if not there, then probably the tennebrous stuff in 2e

>>52240560
The Monster Manual specifically says that some Angels can 'fall' and become able to make decisions of their own that determine their own personal alignment. Regardless, fallen angels are a very common fantasy trope. If that's possible, then I don't see why a demon could gain self awareness and sympathy.

>>52240730
couldn't*

>>52240560
Because once upon a time, a bunch of Angels got irradiated by pure CE, Making LE an energy type, which is why The Abyss has it's own type of hellfire, the 9 Hells has it's own, the abyss has the vile darkness table, and the 9-er is it taint? might be, but there's other stuff.

Also, angels are the sort of "blind good" they can't actually think outside the box so to speak, in D&D, (At least before 4e-5e) Good evil, law and chaos are literally tongue in cheek forces that manipulate everything on a sepiant metaphysical level, and it's why sometimes there are world breakign cliches, or moments of clarity that would make sense, if not for this thing that feels like it's shoehorned in, there isn't really a moral grey, because being TN means you go about preventing all the other alignments from getting one upperhand over the other.

Except for deities, which can make saves against alignment restrictions, which explains why Garl Glittergold got away with what he did, why Pelor gets grey knights and Paladins of tyranny can exist, Why any remote form of independant character that exists ends up a vestige, elder evil, sealed away in an inescapable prison, or worse.

Also, following the Ashradorn questline that leads him to becoming a Vestige, you may notice the entire plotline to that quest was actually subtext for Ahriman, Primordial creator next to his sister's securing of Aetheist souls to devour with the Ban on the Unborn, and you may note this with the Lillends that are imprisoned with that one deity, who share relation to the Coatual, and because the deities suddenly turning on him was Ahriman/Asmodeus pulling his strings.

What I mean to say is, True freewill does not exist in older D&D, there is quite literally a cosmic force that pushes or outright prevents it, and because of this, things of a nihlistic otherworldly nature end up CE creatures of malignant intent, because to the Alignment system, that's how it filters cosmic bullshit.

>>52240680
>despite being the physical embodiment of BBC and was generaly successful

I knew the British Broadcasting Corporation was evil!

>>52235523
daemonettes can.

>>52236579
>had to chop off the tip of their dick
I thought that was just the Jews that circumcised themselves?

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>>52240891
Those are daemons, not demons.

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>>52240862
You know what I meant. He even wear's Armour for it when fighting, he literally has cocksheath armour as he fights Devil May Cry style with him looking all anime as he does it. There was even a quest where you go to save a goddess from him who hasn't been seen for a year, and she's apparently fine and Graz'zt has no trouble with you taking her but his crazy daughter who wants his dick tries to kill you just to impress him so you have to go through her.

The BBC is evil though, I live here and they put on noting but trannies and grossly absorbant progressive shit all day long.

>>52240680
To be pendantic for a while, the Nameless Mist is what Yog-Sothto came from. Nyarlathop is one step removed from Azatoth himself (makes sense sinc'e he's probably literally Azatoth's soul or part of it), making him literally older than space and time.

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>>52240975
You do know that out of the entire Lovecraftian patheon Nyarlathotep is the only one that LIES right? Like, just to conceive of that entire concept in that he states he's Azathoth's will, but, like the rest of his kind he's hyperintelligent, and learns faster than anything, entire concepts, ideas, possiblities, and all that above come to Outer gods and Great Old ones like breathing- right?

Now, take into the account that everything but this thing is brutally honest in what they are and what they do, and bad shit that goes down around them is just incidental of their greatness and larger than life status.

And this is the one, not just the one, but one of the first, that was smart enough to come up with the concept of LYING, and it's M.O is usually to travel everywhere at once assisting with it's siblings and spawns generation of cults, across alien cultures and worlds stars etc- everywhere, and doing it's work across fucking everything that is ever is and shall be.

And that all of this plays into blowing everything up.

And this is the only one of their kind that according to oh-so inferior beings that have been in contact with it, only to fall down a spiral of eldritch stairs of despair, because it *Might* enjoy it.

It, kind of paints a really nasty picture, like, remember when Hastur was not a dick, but now suddenly gets metasized by everyone saying his name like that Biggie smalls episode of South park because he didn't get along with his half-brother who is more important than him, being sort of dead but not really just sleeping?

You know that shit in Bionicle with the Makuta? What if that nasty little shapeshifting cunt was basically the OPPOSITE of that, and he's taking everyone on a wild ride?

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>>52235523
I wish.

>>52237662
>ABAZUL!!!
>Yes, my lord?
>I'VE BEEN TOLD YOU'RE DATING A HUMAN GIRL!?
>Merely a ruse, o parangon of darkness; her trust will only make my inevitable betrayal taste sweeter.
>HMM, CLEVER THINKING ABAZUL. CARRY ON.
>Thank you, my lord.

fifty years and eleven grandchildren later.
>ABAZUL!!!!
>Soon, my lord, just wait a bit longer.
>YOU ALREADY SAID THAT LAST YEAR. AND THE YEAR BEFORE!
>I'm entering a tunnel, my lord, I can't hear you.

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>>52235523

Sure why not

>>52240680
Apparently most of his children is incestuous in nature, with getting women of a dynasty he helped found pregnant.

>>52235523
My bard's 20 cha says yes, yes they can.
And they will.

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>>52237507
But anon
that's the BEST kind

>>52235523
Demons could I suppose, but their 'love' would be obsessive, dangerous, and unpredictable. I think it would be mostly out of a desire to 'have' someone instead of a desire to help them, which is more lust than love. I suspect that it would be quite unenjoyable to be on the receiving end, especially because they would be almost certainly abusive.
Devils, being champions of Law in addition to Evil and more often fallen angels with an evil bent, would be much more likely to have a respectful and truly loving relationship with a mortal, though they would probably break it off after some time or attempt to convince their lover to become a devil as well. Plus, devils might tend towards chastity for the reason that his enemies can't use a past lover against him, or specifically treat relationships as short term flings, not understanding how a human couldn't 'get over it'. I imagine devils treat most agreements as contracts, so they feel obligated to hold up long-term relationships but not short-term ones.
>You are now thinking of a human who became obsessed with a devil and tries to force the devil to love them despite the fact that their arrangement was deliberately short-term

>>52237272
Accidentally read that as defecating female demons.

>>52243140
Yes.
If she looks like >>52235523 then fuck yes.

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Typical infernals in my campaigns can and often do, but the mortal (or whatever) must initially possess something that interests them. Power, freedom, virility/fertility, etc. They enter into a contract with whatever terms, and that particular creature later piques the demon's interest unexpectedly. In the situations I've made, the demons are always possessive and very hard to get rid of.

>>52235827
This poster has pretty good reasoning.

>>52243293
This anon, too.

>>52243901

t.Pathfinder module writer

>>52240328
It never mentions torture in the traditional sense, apparently eternal separation from God is "torture". Burn in hell is just a metaphor made cause hell is apparently all hot, but if we don't have a mortal body we can't get burned...

>>52235523
I had an idea for a campaign where the party has to rescue a holy warrior priestess that was bound away in a pocket dimension with a demon that she's been locked in eternal struggle with for over a thousand years. Her church views her as a saint and a martyr, and they've asked the party to free her from her suffering and beat the demon once and for all.
When they finally break into the pocket dimension loaded for bear, it's not a battlefield, but a super peaceful lake with a cabin, which both the demon and priestess share. It turns out that they got exhausted of hundreds of years of constant battle, and formed an uneasy truce which after a few hundred more turned into a relationship.
As a result of being trapped in a few square miles with the only company being someone who's trying to turn you to their side, each of them have drifted in personality and become somewhat equalized, even passing each other. The demon is cheerful and serene, while the priestess is bitter and disillusioned, especially about her church taking this long to send someone to check up on her.
Then they both get out and all literal hell breaks loose.

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>>52238061
For the sole purpose of making the world a place where her husbando can cum inside without worry?

>>52235523
I dunno, can demons fall in /tg/ with love, humans?

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>>52244461

>demons can fall in love
>human ends up betraying the demons trust
>human permamently banishes the demon on the insidious whispers of an angel
>demons face when

>>52240328

The bible is surprisingly opaque on that. Most of the mentions are just in passing during other theological discussions, and a lot of them directly contradict other statements (sometimes in the same book.) A lot of people confuse what people have read into less-than-stellar translations for the actual texts themselves.

tl;dr Neither Milton nor Dante is actual scripture.

>>52235523
Watch and then you tell me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PazXYvWs4U

>>52244615

About 99% of the "common knowledge" about the bible is essentially fanfiction

>>52244587
Why do I feel compelled to have a side quest dealing with things like this now? The idea of some creature or outright a demon truly being changed but some paladin or angel convinces the party to kill/exorcise it on the grounds of "it has to be a lie, there is no way this creature can act differently."

>>52244922

Because its a sappy romantic role reversal with just a touch of grimdark and maybe a sad noire ending when the demon never gives up on the human and hopes he will sin enough to go to hell and be with her again.

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>>52235523
Demons are the literal incarnation of evil itself and should be struck down with great prejudice. Any tingling sensations they may cause to your dick are a trick to stray you from the path of good. Do not fall for their tricks, you idiot.

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>>52236579
The Earth got flooded because mankind was collectively going batshit insane, by the sound of it. The Nephilim seem largely incidental.

Fallen angels are an odd case, because there's every indication that they're not a monolithic force and have their own agendas. Some of them might even be benevolent, but none of them are "good," because all of them opposed God's rule.

Not sure where you're getting the bit about the devil not being a force of evil - if you're including any of the New Testament, it's pretty obvious he's a bad dude. He doesn't rule Hell - he gets imprisoned there - but he's absolutely vile.

>>52240328
Double-check the New Testament - Hell is described in a whole lot of awful ways, but active torture isn't one of them. It's always a suffering that occurs "naturally" - your worm never dies, you cry for water and no one brings it, lake of fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth (probably in self-loathing) and so forth. In other words, Hell is a state of incomparable misery, but no demons with pitchforks tormenting you. The general consensus is that it's because of separation from God entirely. If God is justice, then Hell has only injustice, if God is peace, then Hell has only conflict, if God is love, then Hell has only hate, and so forth.

Tl;dr - Hell isn't a torture chamber, just a place with literally no redeeming features at all

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>>52245078
>Hell isn't a torture chamber, just a place with literally no redeeming features at all
So it's like 4chan, except you cannot close your browser and you can never go to sleep.

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>>52245124
This is disconcertingly accurate and is making me reconsider my life decisions

>>52245145
You'll change nothing though

>>52246202
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave

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>>52244276
DELET THIS

>>52245124
>I'm dead and in Hell RIGHT NOW

That explains a lot.

>>52240078
Its shit

>>52245078
Is that worse than a run-in with the Great Old Ones?

>>52246568
You know those images that move because your brain is haing trouble understanding them?

Now imagine that but it's now causing you to hallucinate, you're hearing voices in your head, one is your own, the other you don't know, and ringing sounds similar to a concussion if you've ever had one, nausea, and you just generally feel ill, on top of being near imminent worse than doom.

At least with lovecraft, it's monumental fear and loss of chemical brain chemistry and control, and agonisign death, with no hell at the end, because that's it for you.

Unless you've become proxy to- er, a lot of cosmic parasites/impregnated with horrors that will kill you internally on birth/somethings inside you or some shit.

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Honestly I'd probably fall in love with a cute demon, even if she wasn't interested in doing anything with me but eating my soul.

>>52247408
>Honestly I'd probably fall in love with a cute demon, even if she wasn't interested in doing anything with me but eating my soul.
Good news anon, the quickest way to a succubutt's cold black heart is her stomach

>>52248821
Careful with your wording, anon, the Knight may come...

>>52249341
>Careful with your wording
I am

>>52247408
Who is this literal semen demon?

>>52249408
I see, I would presume you're a vorefag?

>>52250518
It's /tg/. We're all closeted vorefags.

>>52250555
speak for yourself, mate. And fuck off
>>>>>>/trash/

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>>52250608
See? Some of us are more closeted than others.

>>52250608
>>52250624
Hm, yes, I do see your point. While we'e on the subject, have we had a vorish threas recently? I'd wager there may have been discussion of interest in the princess threads, but I just don't know.

>>52236579
ah the Nephilim, love those half human bastards

>>52240465
laughed more than i should

>>52250724
IIRC we had a dragon thread totally overrun by vorefags last week.

>>52250724
The cannibalism thread's touched on it

>>52244779
>Little Spider Girl
...yeah no. already know how that cluster ends

>>52247408
It's not like you're going to be using it after you die, depending on the setting's metaphysics, you may not even need it while you're alive
So why not give your waifu a tasty treat?

>>52250518
I am yes

>>52250555
Nah, I'd say ~40%

>>52235827
>Evil is at its heart about selfishness, where Good is about selflessness, sacrifice and all that.

So someone who slaughters innocents to save his people, despite finding it distasteful, is "good" according to you?

>>52251164

Sacrificing yourself for others is selflessness. Sacrificing others for your own ends is selfish, even if it's a selfish means to a selfless end. Which your hypothetical scenario is not, since he's conspicuously not putting himself up to be sacrificed too.
A good person in that situation would call upon others to sacrifice themselves to save the innocent people, and then lead the way.

>>52251164
Not him, but if he's doing it with the genuine intent of saving his people, he's probably good.

Depending on the exact breakdown of people killed/saved, he could just be really bad at it though

>>52235631
All questions ate a gateway to talk about your setting.
It's replies to your answers where things risk going retarded..

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>>52245062
But... but he looks so sad... Maybe I can change him so he can be good!!

>>52235827
>Demons are easily the most loving creatures in the world
>Love is the path of violence
>Violence is the means to heaven
>Demons are the most heavenly creatures in reality

>>52235523
Depends, if angels can fall then can demons rise?

>>52254611
No, but they can make my dick rise

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>>52235523
Only if it's the stalery evil kind of love that causes the development of creative curses to split up lovers.
Like turning the current partner of the object of their affection into a hideous monster.

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>>52243920
What if she looks like this?

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Yes, yes they can. And it's so delicious when they do.

>>52235523
they get close, and they'll show love the same way a human can, but they'll never really show that inherent urge and desire to break and hurt you. If they truly love you, they'll suppress it as much as they can (as much as a human would) in order to please you.

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>>52255213
Balrogs are a subtype of Maiar.
Maiar can take any form they damn well want.

>>52255347
But Anon, they don't want to hurt you. It's all just tough love to ensure you'll make the right choices and end up in Abyss. There they'll bathe you in the lakes of fire to burn away whatever remains of your humanity, until your soul melts into the very essence of that plane, the same they're made of and which will return to it when they're finally slain. And so you'll be together forever, sometimes incarnate, sometimes mere formless malevolence, but never truly separate.

Your demon waifu isn't yandere, she's just thinking long-term.

>>52251243
>A good person in that situation would call upon others to sacrifice themselves

Asking others to sacrifice themselves for your ideals is profoundly a selfish act, even if you're willing to share in the sacrifice. A good person would be willing to set his personal ideals aside for the sake of his people; to do otherwise would just make him a dangerous zealot.

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>>52255647

>>52255647

No, that'd be true if he was demanding it. If he simply tells everyone what's up -- a bunch of innocent people will die unless a certain number of people sacrifice themselves -- then it's up to others to step forward, voluntarily, to prevent the vague hypothetical disaster that anon originally proposed, and there's no moral stain upon the guy.
Because telling the truth and asking for volunteers to help him save people isn't coercive or evil no matter how you want to try to spin it.

>>52255389
I'd be fine with either form.

Ah, if only real life wasn't so horrifically boring. I really wish I could have my demon waifu/husbando of my own but I know it's never going to happen.

>>52255647
>refusing to murder innocents to achieve your goals
>dangerous zealot

>>52255721
>a bunch of innocent people will die unless a certain number of people sacrifice themselves

But the people being asked to sacrifice themselves are also innocent.

>the vague hypothetical disaster

There's nothing vague or hypothetical about this scenario. It's the classic "orc children, what do?" dilemma. A hero, typically a paladin, defeats an orcish force which has been raiding human villages. He finds the children of the orcs who, though innocent, will someday grow up into dangerous adult orcs which will most likely prey upon human villages just like their now dead fathers. Does he stay his hand, sparing both the orcish children and his own conscience but condemning unknown numbers of innocents in the future, or does he take action now to protect the people he is sworn to protect despite the fact that he finds the idea of slaughtering orc children to be morally repugnant?

>>52237507
Yandere Daemon waifu is best daemon waifu.

You can kick back, play PnP games (online of course), vidja, and whatever else. Then every night try and survive the hellish mounting you're going to get from said daemon waifu.

>>52255835
>But the people being asked to sacrifice themselves are also innocent.

Duh? Of course they're "innocent." So is the guy doing the asking. Sacrificing yourself to save others isn't wrong, it's a noble act.
Calling upon people to do noble acts of their own free will is not wrong -- forcing them to do so against their will is.

The orc baby scenario doesn't even remotely fit the question. The original poster proposed a scenario where a lot of innocent people would die unless a number of people sacrificed themselves to stop it, and then proposed (erroneously) that it was moral for some leader to decide who would be sacrificed and then sacrifice them against their will.

>>52255806

You have 11 people charged with heinous crimes. One is innocent, the others are guilty and will commit more crimes if released. You have no perfect way of telling the guilty from the innocent, so you have to either release them all or condemn them all. Do you release them all in the name of "justice" despite the fact that the criminals will go on to commit more crimes, crimes which will likely have innocent victims, or do you condemn one innocent man for a crime he didn't commit, in order to protect society from the rest?

This is moral problem inherent in the classically liberal position "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". It is a zealous position in the cause of justice, which has grotesque consequences in the real world when played out over time.

>>52255835
>paladin finds orc children
He spares them but does his best to ensure they won't prey on anyone in the future, for example by taking them to be raised by his church. He's a paladin, not an SS officer.

Anon, it's a rare villain, in-game or IRL, who does evil for the sake of evil. Pretty much every atrocity ever was caused by someone thinking ends justify the means. All evil means achieve is make you Satan's bitch.

>>52255940
>You have no perfect way of telling the guilty from the innocent, so you have to either release them all or condemn them all.

Do you have an imperfect way? I'd say choosing based on an imperfect method is still better than just condemning or releasing all of them.

>>52255929

I am the original poster from last night, and I was reacting to the narrowly defined moral axis the prior commenter offered of selfishness vs. selflessness. The original scenario was:

>So someone who slaughters innocents to save his people, despite finding it distasteful, is "good" according to you?

I implicitly invoked the virtue of loyalty in that scenario, i.e "to save his people", because I felt the selfish vs selfless moral binary was too limited. The underlying issue here is not simply what is or isn't a selfish act, it's what is or isn't an evil act. That's something civilizations have been debating for thousands of years, and it makes little sense to narrowly define it along a single dimension or morality. Most moral systems have found it necessary to define multiple virtues and vices, and to charge their adherents to try and find a balance among competing moral imperatives with an eye to the long term consequences of their actions.

That's why the orc babay scenario fits on multiple levels. One can ask, "isn't it a selfish act to spare one's self the burden of sin at the expense of your people's safety"? Or one can ask, "is selfishness defined by a lack of compassion for strangers or a lack of loyalty to your people?" Ultimately one should really ask, "can evil simply be defined as selfishness, or are their other vices which must also be avoided to avoid the performance of evil acts?"

see: Nicomachean Ethics and the virtues as means (measn in the sense of "average")

>>52255940
>This is moral problem inherent in the classically liberal position "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". It is a zealous position in the cause of justice, which has grotesque consequences in the real world when played out over time.

So would you rather live in a place where you'll get lynched because someone accuses you or one where they have to actually prove your guilt beyond reasonable doubt? Because that's what this boils down to.

Also, please elaborate on what these "grotesque consequences" are, because I live in such a place and haven't noticed any.

>>52256214
>Do you have an imperfect way?

In reality yes: trial by jury, adversarial courts, and the presumption of innocence.

My point is that the ideal of the presumption of innocence, taken to an extreme, easily becomes toxic to society because it lets the guilty go free to prey upon the innocent again. Of course any of those three principles taken to an extreme becomes toxic. Trial by jury in its extreme form is simply a popularity contest. Adversarial courts, taken to extremes, replace the pursuit of justice and truth with a simple desire to win at any cost.

Anything taken to an extreme, even mercy and compassion, become vice's rather than virtues.

>>52256222

You can prattle on all you want, but it's still not good and moral to tell people you're going to kill them, but it's okay because it's for a good cause.
Violating other people's free will is the central component of all moral evils.

>>52256371
You think murder and rape aren't grotesque? You think the destruction of whole communities isn't grotesque? In the United states, from the 70s through the 90s, we saw massive increases in violent crime and the effective destruction of many working class urban communities, all because the law became too lenient. These Problems were only reigned in by the implementation of "tough on crime" policies, which lead to mass incarceration. Now, activists, in the name of "protecting the innocent" are calling for those policies to be rolled back, despite the fact that our recent history shows this will lead to more grotesque violence.

>>52256428
We execute criminals. We violate the free will of criminals. Would you really hold that to be evil? If you do hold it to be evil, what then of the evil caused by the criminals, evils you would be an accomplice to if you let them go free?

>>52256501

It's acceptable to violate the free will of those who have done the same willfully and with malice. I don't see why this is so hard for you to follow -- every common street thug know what the phrase "don't start shit, won't be shit" means.
If you decide to commit acts of aggression towards others, you have forfeited your right to be safe from the just reprisal. Which again, is all about choice.

>>52256474
Like I said: I live in a bleeding-heart liberal country, yet I don't see such consequences. And in any case, you seem to be implying that grotesque violence against the innocent is okay or at least better as long as it's the state doing it, yet I'd rather take on a mugger than an army. So maybe you should take your bullshit to /pol/ where it belongs?

But I suppose a thread about Chaotic Evil creatures finding love _would_ be irresistible to conservatives.

>>52235523
Doesn't that character have a relationship with a human mage?

>>52256574
OK, so what about those who have not done evil yet, but are likely to? How would letting them go free not be a betrayal of their future victims? In RPGs this is the classic problem of inherently evil races, but this is also an issue in real life. Decades of research has proven the tabula rasa to be a lie, and have shown that personality traits, especially antisocial traits, are strongly heritable. We would not let a car be sold if there was a 30% chance of that car, due to it's design, causing an accident. How then can we justify "respecting the free will" of someone who we can prove has a 60% chance of committing a serious crime?

>>52256667
> you seem to be implying that grotesque violence against the innocent is okay or at least better as long as it's the state doing it

I never brought the state into this. I'm simply bringing up long term consequences.

>I suppose a thread about Chaotic Evil creatures finding love _would_ be irresistible to conservatives.

By the same light, it's also irresistible to liberals, who can be relied upon to side with Chaotic Evil creatures in exchange for a hint of nooky.

Sure, I've got /pol/ open in another tab on my browser, so what? Do you really think /tg/ should be a "safe space". Tabletop games tend to be competitive, and RPGs frequently invoke manichean struggles between good and evil. That's bound to attract any number of people who could be described as "conservative". This isn't your board, and it isn't my board, it's OUR board. You need to learn to share, and you need to learn how to converse with people you don't agree with.

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>>52256759
>OK, so what about those who have not done evil yet, but are likely to?

Oh now we're into pre-crime, huh? Punishing people for things they haven't done, but you're "pretty sure they're gonna?"

>>52236579
>John 10:10
>Satan is here to steal, kill and destroy
>but he's not evil

>>52256907
No, we're talking about protecting people from others who are predictably antisocial. We can know the odds of someone engaging in antisocial behavior. At what point to those odds get high enough we are justified in acting? Again I'll ask, is waiting for them to commit a crime really anything other than a betrayal of their future victims. We know there is a risk to others, and we are taking that risk on their behalf without consulting them. How is that right?

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>>52248821
And the quickest way to a succubutt's stomach is through her tail.
At least according to Japan. No idea where they got that from, though.

>>52257102
>No, we're talking about protecting people from others who are predictably antisocial.
"You are not sufficiently popular, time for you to be executed!" Great idea, Adolf.

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>>52235523
Grea is a dragon though.

>>52235523
Humans, yes. You, no.

>>52257427

That's your brain on /pol/, though. Dazzled with theoretical bullshit until you don't know right from wrong, and end up a kind of weird mirror image of that hippie caricature from Futurama. "You can't SAY things are WRONG, man!"

Well I can, because I'm not a brainwashed /pol/tard.

>>52257349
>No idea where they got that from, though
Dragon Ball.
Cell's arc made got thousand of people into vore.

>>52257572
>made got
wtf
Time to sleep I guess.

>>52257572
Still kind of weird how it got connected to succubi (and it's not just an isolated instance, either; I've seen multiple completely different sources with tail-vore succubi). Best I can figure the line of thought goes:
>Cell absorbed people with his tail
>Succubi have tails
>???
>Therefore, succubi eat people with their tails

That's a pretty big leap of logic there.

>>52257794
I don't know but FYI /d/ sometimes have thread dedicated to Cell/monster with similar method absobing people.

>>52257794
The Japanese are very strange people.

>>52255213
Then it goes from "fuck yes" to just "yes."

>>52238061
>Purely because she craves a good hard smiting

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>>52236014
/thread

>>52256866
>I never brought the state into this.
Who do you presume does the incarceration or execution of criminals, then?

>By the same light, it's also irresistible to liberals, who can be relied upon to side with Chaotic Evil creatures in exchange for a hint of nooky.
Anon, _you_ are Chaotic Evil. And I'm arguing _against_ you, am I not?

>Sure, I've got /pol/ open in another tab on my browser, so what? Do you really think /tg/ should be a "safe space".
No, I just think you're roleplaying a demon with creepy accuracy.

>>52235523
Depends on what kind of "demon" we are referring to here.

My favorite example of this is In Nomine where angels and demons can both fall in love with humans but how their love can manifest in some very unsettling ways such as unhealthy obsession and cause their beloved mortal to be subjected to things man was not meant to experience.

I prefer for love between such (usually) alien beings to be not so great for the mortal's sanity. Makes for fun games when one PC secretly slaughters some people to appease their lover...

>>52245078
Hell is basically the Eldritch Location to end all Eldritch Locations. It's probably infinitely worse than anything a human mind could ever possibly dream up.

>>52257794
Japan also does the
>Tail is an erogenous area
thing, which (somewhat?) naturally flows into
>Tail has a genital to drain humans of their "life energy"
when you push that over to succubi it kinds of follows some form of logic. (I'm not sure if anything like that came before Cell or DBZ upgraded it)

>>52258839

>Who do you presume does the incarceration or execution of criminals, then?

Anyone with the requisite power can kill people or lock them up. It does not have to be a "state". Again, the specific examples cited so far have referred to individuals, who may simply be vigilantes.

>Anon, _you_ are Chaotic Evil. And I'm arguing _against_ you, am I not?
>No, I just think you're roleplaying a demon with creepy accuracy

Just shows what you know. Clearly I'm presenting a Lawful Evil argument, and hence am role playing a devil, not a demon. Also, you're not really arguing against me as you haven't presented clear counter arguments against my positions. You just staked out your position and then degenerated into name calling when challenged. Which, at best, leaves you in the realm of the Chaotic Neutral.

>>52235523
>Can demons fall in love with humans, /tg/?

Probably, as long as the demon in question is a sapient being capable of making choices and shit.

>>52240423
She was really cute. Good taste, Anon.

W͙̫̑̈͆̎ͭ͐͑͐́͜H͇̱̱̠͐͆ͭ̒̂̾A̢̧̮̺̩͆̀ͫ̑ͪT͕̞̳͓͍͇̙̽ͅ ̢̺̣̠̿̑͒͛͂̌͠W̸̛̮͉̟̿̔ͬ͆̏ͯA̶͇̜̤̟̙͙̱͈̖͌̄̏S͚͍̬̩̗̺̠͒͛̌̑̉ͪ̕ ̷̹̳͚̮̳̃̇͑̍ͮ͂ͯS̸̛͈̰̙̘ͤ̉̀ͦ̈̿̉͠H̘͔̔͒͜͝À͇̳̝͍̻̖̓͒̾̕͡L̞̱̙͈̦̗̠̉̂ͯͅL̡̛͓̣̥͑̇̄̚͘ ̨̯͎̪͉̲̖̲̫̞̏͂͂̽͆ͩͩ͂̕B̧̰̦̓͂ͭ̾̈́ͦ͢E͉̜͙͎̳̞̝͒̐̎̍ͣ́̄̈̒͟ ̩̝̞̉̍ͫͦ͑̄̏W̴̴̦̭̳̹̩͎͆̉̃̈́̚̕H̡̹̤͓̮̓͋̔́́A̬͗̿ͫͤ̌̌ͦ̓͌͜T̛̞̪͐̾̿ͧ̔͠ ̢̡̙̘̘̳̆̉̉̾͐͞S̵͚̺̰̣̖̩̣̦̾̀̎̏H̭͇̦̬͎̆ͪͯ̿ͮẠ̙͉̮͔̲͆̾̾ͯ̌̎̚L̨̩̼̭̟͔̣͙̺ͦ̈́͒͋̌̓͂͂̐L͕ͫ͌ ̟̺̪͕̲̜͚ͮ̏ͦ̓ͣͨͫ̾̕ͅB̮̮̫͕͉̩̅̎͌ͪ̀̚͟͠E̶̵̘̱̬̬͕͙̾̂́̂́ ͎͈̼͔̮͉̲̫͖̒͒ͦ̓̾ͣ̚W̱͕͈̖̔̌̆̾ͧ̈̀͆̕͟A̙̰̯͙̫̩ͬͨ̑͒͘S̬̩͈̜̬̝̦̩͒ͩ̍͋͞!̰͚͎͇̰̜͚ͭ̔̽̽ͧ̋͌ͧ

>>52243925
Never understood what was so painful about being a sexy horned chick with wings

>>52244922
>>52245040
Or maybe she goes full-vengeance on these losers for spurning her, just like a mortal woman villain would.

>>52255213
I want to marry a cute Balrog!

>>52260669
>You just staked out your position and then degenerated into name calling when challenged. Which, at best, leaves you in the realm of the Chaotic Neutral.
I don't know, I think someone of any alignment could be a lousy debater. Like, that's more an attribute/skills thing.

>>52262777
fair point

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Personally I like my redeemed demons as follows:
>Demons are literal incarnations of evil itself
>They can be purified ie. rid of all evil
>But once they are rid of all evil, there's nothing left
>A redeemed succubus isn't so much a perfect sexwaifu as much as she is put to rest
>Being inherrently evil at her core, this also means her very soul is erased until nothing is left
>Ideally leaving her with just enough precious time to whisper a heartfelt "thank you" to her redeemer
>A strong paladin will smile and move on, knowing there is more evil to slay
>A man who thinks with his dick will spend his nights bathing in sweat, wracked with guilt over what was essentially a good deed
>If this is too dark, maybe redeemed demons are reincarnated as mortals, much like how in DBZ kid Buu was reincarnated as Uub

Thoughts?

>>52235827
So, like the Jedi vs Sith on love?

>>52262891
Forced drama
>demon moves up in the alignment chart into Neutral territory
And that's that
Otherwise the demon stays evil just in love, evil can still love

>>52236579
>If you're going biblical, the devil was never a force of evil.

Someone never read the new testament.

>>52262891
Nah, I think the sapience should still be able to have some kind of continuity, even if you have to use magic to pull it off. The reincarnation works, but maybe some kind of ritual to reincorporate them somehow, to replace whatever losing the Fundamental Evil part takes from them.

Kinda filling in the gaps that absolving them of their sinful nature will leave.

Oh, because then you could have a badass magical cyborg demon, with crazy magitech parts or some shit.

>>52262891
Nah, redemption is a gradual process, and involves not just shedding vicious aspects but taking on righteous ones, or at least more functional ones. Sure, you can argue about Theseus's ship all day long but what you end up with is a spirit made of less or no evil and more something else.

>>52263243
>Sure, you can argue about Theseus's ship all day long
Oh boy.
>Is your waifu still your waifu after she learns to juggle? How many new traits can your waifu learn and unlearn before she stops being your waifu?

>>52240957
Anon, all christians were jews before Jesus. Jesus was a jew.

Jesus was what divided them apart, where jews chose to believe that he was not the messiah and that someone else will come along whereas christians believed that Jesus was the messiah and that Jesus will return again.

Christianity then divided itself up further since many people couldn't decide how they prefer to worship, so some practices carry jewish traditions while others do not.

Honestly, the history behind the three abrahamic religions is neat and I like it when homebrews have religious lore where multiple religions had the same background but come from people making different choices or interpretations.

>>52263284
...now I want to write up a juggling succubus waifu for one of my campaigns. She sounds really cute.

>>52263284
The other guy is the one who posited that demons are composed, metaphysically, of a philosophical concept/pattern of behavior. Teaching them to act by a different standard might be like cutting out bits of brain and replacing them with new ones, or something.

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>>52263349
>The redeemed succubus (who may or may not be a goddess) has no idea how to make her (romantic, utterly pure and for now non-sexual) attraction to the handsome adventurer clear
>She opts to simply show off her skills, including but not limited to juggling, playing the piano blindfolded and solving a rubix cube behind her back

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>>52263389
>(who may or may not be a goddess)
>Nah, redemption is a gradual process

>>52263389
>and solving a rubix cube behind her back with her prehensile tail

>>52235523
D&Demons? Usually, no. Though some outlying cases exist here and there, they are so rare as to be practically unheard of in the multiverse; it goes against their nature like it goes against ours to breathe poison.
In anything Japanese, sure. They don't even have a word for "demons" in Japan, and all the words they use as substitutes are placeholder words that have significantly different meanings due to strongly different cultural underpinnings.

>>52263614
>In anything Japanese, sure.

They are close enough. Spirits that cause harm and that deceive/devour humans.

>>52257794
I know nothing of Japan, might it not be a case of both Cell and succubi drawing from the same source of inspiration?

Is there some older part in japanese mythology about something eating people with their tails?

>>52245124
>no redeeming features

Idk man, the porn boards areally pretty nice and civil, considering.

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>>52235523
Of course! But you have to consider the subject. After all, what kind of love would be available to a demon?

The forbidden kind.

>>52265339
>>52235523
>>52237477
>>52257447
Please explain, this looks cute

A demon cannot be redeemed, a demon that ceases to be evil ceases to be a demon.

A demon can still love, but it keeps what it loves and so the lover of a demon will never again love another, either by death or ensorcellment.

>>52235523
Well, yes, absolutely. Why wouldn't they be able to? Half the time the only difference between them and us is plane of origin anyway.

>>52266293
What's the difference between them and angles then?

>>52268602
Only a few angles are acute, the others are just obtuse, and fewer still are rarely right.

>>52268602
>>52268676
Top kek

>>52268602
I shall assume you meant 'angels'. And, quite a few! They really aren't very similar at all.

'Angel' is a generalized term for the assorted divine servants of the gods. In many cultures this evokes images of beautiful winged Men, but that's not always the case - the moth-attendants of Krkt!, Lyrica's sentient songs, and Leyn's blessed puppy Prism Bright are all Angels as well, whereas the Aracor certainly are not, despite what some of the more egotistical bird-Men might have you believe. It's important to keep in mind that Angels are very rare in this age; most perished in the Skyfall alongside their masters, and as poor Prism Bright reminds us, many of the survivors have gone mad from grief and the passage of time.

A 'Demon', meanwhile, is simply a being who is not of Uresia. That's it. Any creature from a plane of existence other than our own is a demon. There are occasionally utter bastards clad in red and wielding pitchforks, but those are more likely to be disgruntled farmers than soul-consuming monstrosities. In fact, many Demons /are/ Human, full stop; that particular species of Man seems to be common among the planes.

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>>52263284
My waifu already knows how to juggle!

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A young tiefling girl is raised by the church of a lawful good deity in a remote seaside monastery. A veteran mercenary, returning to his homeland after being forced to retire due to an injury, comes up a group of bandits preparing to attack. He defeats them, but his wound reopens in the process. He expects he will die, but is saved by the young girl's order.

Does love bloom?

>>52272618
Tieflings aren't demons, but sure I guess.

>>52240328

From what I remember hell is basically where you go if you refuse god, it's closer to nonexistence than a lava world filled with people being boiled alive.

>>52236579

> It was Dante's Jesus fanfiction that made demons out to be so evil.

Dante didn't make the Devine Comedy as a fanfiction but as a mythological continuation of Aeneas mythos as to link Italians with Romans who themselves were linked with the Aeneas myth. Also it's a very much a political book with all the popes burning in hell, and a lot of people there being people he didn't like.

>>52274270
So the "fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a different thing?

>>52275464
Yes actually, that's after armageddon and the damned judged a second time (depending on how you interpret the wording the SAVED may also be judged once more as well)

>>52238388
MR. RAGE?

>>52264301
>Is there some older part in japanese mythology about something eating people with their tails?
The Kraken? Japan is an archipelago, there's no way they couldn't have a Kraken equivalent.

File: Anne%2C_Liberator_of_Mysteria4.jpg (99KB, 640x800px) Image search: [Google]

99KB, 640x800px

>>52265452
They both come from the Rage of Bahamut mobage.
Basically a student from Mysteria magic academy fuck up an experiment and summon demons and monsters. Grea fight to protect the academy but get wrecked and Anne come to save the day and her waifu Grea.
They are also in Shadowverse but all the lore from RoB got canned there.
There's also an anime that got postponed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-W5fmFEJgY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCdaxvGmu0M
NEVER EVER

>>52277921
I was just joking about forbidden love but that is pretty damn blatant.