White Wolf

Appealing to otherkin long before it was cool.

>>52203655
Mark Rein-Hagen

>>52203655

Marketing death-spiral. They focused too much on selling books to their existing customers which resulted in selling more and more books to less and less people, and every book made the whole setting less appealing to anyone already not involved in it. By the time they realized what had happened they'd drunk enough of their own Kool-Aid to think that the solution was one whole year of celebratory publshing glut followed by a whole new set of books.

>>52205147
This.

>>52204007
Nah, that went to shit only after it became cool and fashionable to be a professional victim.

>>52203964
Well, he's not wrong.

>>52206926
What book was this in?

>>52207002
Hopefully the one written right before the author fucking killed himself

>>52207002
Mage20, I can tell because the background of the sidebars is the same as the xeximxer sidebar that got ~700 replies over 2 threads when the book first came out.

>>52206926
>you need to make green, yellow and red cards
Holly shit, that sound like something you do for preschool children.

>>52206926
>women are mammals with hair
Out of everything in this image, that's the part anon thought was worthy of macro text?

>>52207094
Actually, the colored card system has been shown to be mostly ineffective in helping with classroom behavior, because the "bad kids" relish the attention of getting a colored card. Please do not do that with preschool children.

Rewarding the entire class by moving them closer to a shared goal (pizza party, etc.) when they are all behaving properly is a much better approach.

>>52207118
>he's a white wolf player
>and degenerate pervert
>who's giving advice about children
>"pizza party"
Kill yourself now, the cops are on their way and you are going to get torn the fuck up in prison

>>52207222
>he's a white wolf player
Where did you get that?

I just knew this thread would be full of delicious Internet drama and hand-wringing about the skeleton menace.

>>52207311
Not much time left. Maybe you can still manage to actually die before they find you.

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>>52207323
Any proof?

>>52207222
Not sure where you're getting any of the whitewolf player or pervert stuff. Looks like he might be an educator or know one.

>>52207311
>>52207334
>>52207338
Stop giving him (you)s. It's not like we'll be short on bait in a White Wolf thread, you can wait for something higher quality.

>>52207338
Well, his type is attracted to professions that put them in proximity to children, after all.

>>52207357
>Stop giving him (you)s
Fuck off, I can feed all the trolls I want. If you don't enjoy this bait thread, you can close the tab.

>>52207338
Degree in child development and teaching licenses in two states.

>>52207367
Yes, and?

>>52203655
Nothing. All of their new stuff is good.
Nwod > owod
Ex3 > ex2/1
Fight me

>>52207800
>Ex3 > ex2/1
>oh look, this mostly functional game is better than a pile of garbage that's been lit on fire
I look forward to seeing how they ruin Lunars this time. Their comments before release give some hints, but it can always be worse.

>>52207051

Fuck. Now I legitimately fear for my Wr20 book (if it ever finishes kek). I didn't realize WW had turned into this shit.

>>52207357
Is this a yellow or red card for you?

I haven't indulged much in CofD, but there's something in the way the VtR corebook is written I can't stand.

>>52208101
I think it's the tumblr-tier retardation

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>>52207800
Very funny

At least they don't have their claws on the new Scion.

>>52208219
HOLY FUCKING FUCK

>>52207118
In a story that made the local news, teachers in my school encouraged bullying because they agreed that children are much easier to control when you have a strict hierarchy.

As someone who knows nothing about White Wolf beyond playing that nifty Deus Ex clone they put out, can someone fill me in on what happened to them? Did the company itself go defunct? What is with Chronicles of Darkness as opposed to World of Darkness?

>>52207094
Gamers are basically preschool children, though.

>>52208781
Link? Would love to read this.

They're absolutely right.

>>52208880

Bullying is always awful to see and it can really destroy people's lives.

But good grief do I know some adults who should've been thrown into more trash cans in high school.

>>52203655
They became Tunblr-tier retards who insisted on shoving "muh social justice" and shit into their games. Once the game starts being about preaching your insane ideology rather than fun, the end is in sight. No game company can serve two masters, after all.

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>>52208219
>Even when creating literally Gamergate incarnate, they couldn't resist the temptation to make her a strong, independent woman.
JUST

>>52208918
You realize one of their most popular franchises was a game about Ecoterrorist furries, right?

>>52208219
This is an incredible antagonist write-up. In addition to using a concept that has rarely yet been used in an interesting fashion in RPGs, it manages to maintain a delicate balance in the way it handles its subject matter - on one hand, it uses "adolescent man-children" to describe her targets, but but the text still implies contempt for Snyper's action, calling her a troll with empty rhetoric. Has an evocative home description that would make for an excellent final showdown.
10/10, would use in my campaign.

>>52206926

Isn't that written by Onyx Path though?

Not saying WW didn't have its case of shit like this, but you can't really lay the blame for that particular shitfest at their feet.

>>52208969
You haven't seen the dick eyes have you?

>>52208956
Yeah honestly it kind of gives mixed messages. At first I thought she represented the Anti GGers, who are just as autistic and bloodthirsty as the /v/irgins they hate. But given it's White Wolf that's probably not the case.

>>52208969
>"adolescent man-children"
Anon, that... Describes her supporters, not her enemies.

>>52208970
Nah I'm to lay it Phil Bru. The man who wrote oldmage into the ground. Prolific ww writer. Old hand. word of God. and he still fucked it up

>>52207883
The 20th books are done by Onyx Path, hopefully 5th edition won't be so shit.

>>52203655
Their games sucked. Fluff can only carry you so far when everything runs on a crappy system, and their refusal to abandon it after RPGs started getting more refined and we had non-crappy choices did them in.

Say whatever you want about their politics, their odd magical realms, their emoness, but there's a market for all those things. But the fundamental truth is that the market for crappy games which refuse to adapt to modern game design has been filled by D&D, and it's not a big enough niche for two.

>>52208880
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc2_rSysXws

>>52208219
>implying they don't

There's the exact same kind of SJ work going on in new Scion, and they still fucked up the system. And they put in the added fuck you of splitting the core rules into two books.

I still like the System Mastery review where they complain about how all the goddesses are either mother figures or sexual figures, with no sense of irony.

>>52209153
These guys need to chill out.

>>52209153
>I still like the System Mastery review where they complain about how all the goddesses are either mother figures or sexual figures, with no sense of irony.
Wait what?

>>52209264
System Mastery Podcast did a review of Scion where they talked about (among other things, including an actually decent review of the system itself) the sexism of the writeups for all the goddess, about how they all ended up having sexual careers (like strippers and prostitutes) over the millennia, and even Artemis got a lesbian writeup, and the ones who didn't were non-sexualized Madonnas.

Totally missing how all the goddesses traditionally had that going on.

>>52209327
>Artemis
>Lesbian
So that Orion thing meant nothing? Or did they just need a dyke?

>>52209327
So they were angry that ancient gods didn't have modern morals and sensibilities.
I fucken hate this gay earth.

>>52209355
She's a virgin goddess who hangs out exclusively with virgin nymphs and punished the one member of her cadre who went for the D. It's not a hard assumption to make.

>>52209375
True, she is strongly associated with that. But also with extreme bitterness towards women who have relationships in general. Because, you know, Orion didn't really work out and she's enforcing her bitterness.

>>52209327
That works for Aphrodite, but what about Hera, Hestia, Demeter, and Persephone? I'd like to see Hera as a pop relationship counselor or child psychologist, Hestia opening homeless shelters and managing massive chains of apartment companies, Demeter owning Monsanto, and Persephone doing things like the National Arboretum and Longwood Gardens.

>>52209050
>Their games sucked.
Pretty much this. They had great art and writing in some books, but they started to lose their edge by third 3rd ed (owod).
I think vampires also reached a sort of cultural oversaturation point in the 90s. There was so much media about vampires or with vampire characters in it at the time, they just became pretty stale as a narrative device and I think people just got bored of them.

>>52209427
Everybody forgets Hestia. She just doesn't fit into their agendas.

>>52209375
Artemis pretty much fucked over ANY woman who got the D on her watch, not just her devotees. She's not simply gay, she's got a complex against dicks.

>>52203655
Justin Achilli. Fucking wank.

Why is Scion 2e, which didn't sound so hot as early as when the Kickstarter was revealed, becoming worse and worse with each additional preview?

>>52210135
Because the people making it are awful

>>52210135
Because the guys in Onyx Path can't seem to be able to write a paragraph of Scion fiction without reminding the reader GAY PEOPLE EXIST, HERE THEM ROAR, lest they forget.

>>52210135
OPP can't decide what's more important to them, talking about gay people or making the game as close as possible to Fate for those extra credits from gay people.

>>52207883
WW was always that and you're stupid for not realizing it.

>>52209088
You disappoint us, anon.

>>52210271
You know, they're right. Unless they're constantly blasting me in the face with trannies and queers, I'd totally erase them from existence.

>>52203655
Outside of beast mostly nothing. Its just people being thin skinned cry babies about books using words they don't like.

>>52208918
I do have to admit that a small part of me does enjoy the irony of them making a big deal about inserting all that "progressive" stuff, then turning around and making Beast basicaly be "Abuser: The Victim Blaming"

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>>52206926
>taking a page from the BDSM playbook

>>52203655
1. The introductions of competing cosmologies
2. Metaplot bottlenecking combined with crossover lore
3. The collapse of AD&D
4. The Time of Judgement
5. Having the MMO go bust and bankrupting WW
6. Turning nWoD into CoFD
7. Creation of Onyx Path
8. All of 20th anniversary stuff
9. The creation of new White Wolf by Dracula

>>52209022
>>52208970
The two prelude games for nu-oWoD feature the evil Technocracy being anti-immigration and a transgender vampire that kills Trump voters. Dracula's White Wolf is going to suck

>>52210586
Phrasing!

>>52211509
>The two prelude games for nu-oWoD feature the evil Technocracy being anti-immigration and a transgender vampire that kills Trump voters. Dracula's White Wolf is going to suck
Well, it's over guys. It's finally all over.

>>52211509

Why is a globalist conspiracy against immigration?

>>52211509
The entire White Wolf mess reeks of people that accidently hit the nerve of the time, but never really got what the fuck made their game appealing.

>>52209375
Artemis is no dyke, anon - you are projecting modern garbage onto mythic reality.

>>52213668

In fairness to that anon the "Artemis is a rugmuncher" characterization came around way before modern progressive politics on sex and gender.

Kind of inevitable when one of her major character traits is "distrusts men".

>>52214636
>Kind of inevitable when one of her major character traits is "distrusts men".
Erm, only from a modern perspective can THAT trait be assumed to mean "has sexual relations with women exclusively". Helluva leap from 'distrust' to full-blown homosexuality....Artemis defends the matriarchy, but she ain't gay...opposing da man don't make her gay....despite what tumblr and redit might tell you............

>>52214774

It's not so much people insist she actually was intended as gay.

Just if someone reinterprets the characters for their own work (which happened well before Tumblr) and decided one had to be a lesbian she'd be at the top of the list.

>>52214774
Dude, what?

>>52214636
Artemis has always been associated with lesbians, however whether she was one herself was something poets disagreed on. The point about Orion above is a big one, because in all versions Artemis loves him because he is her only rival, or hates that she loves him because her equal is a man. That difference then influences the tale of Orion's death; whether she was tricked by Apollo or orchestrated it herself.

I'm just waiting for aberrant 2e.

>>52214845
Because the legend differs based on who is telling and there is no "true telling", my personal Scion canon on Artemis is the following.

Artemis is long established as the greatest of hunters, and she considers herself a big, independent goddess who don't need no man. Then hops along Orion who is every bit the hunter she is, in tracking, archery, and cunning. His prowess and equal reverence towards the hunt endears him to her, and they hunt together many times. However, Orion is a man, and her own acknowledgement and admiration for him vexes her to no end. Apollo, being both kind of a jerk and protective of his little sister, sees her emotional turmoil and reads it entirely wrong. Thinking he's going to rid her of an annoying mortal, he takes Artemis out for some shooting, and tells her to fire at something (Orion) out in the distance. With Orion now dead, Artemis decides to deal with her feelings by swearing off men, and the heartache they bring, forever. She curses her followers who break this taboo because she cannot handle seeing them having a happiness now forever lost to her.

>>52214845
>Artemis has always been associated with lesbians
Wrong! False! Artemis has always been associated with the pre-'greek' matriarchy, just like Hestia, Aphrodite, and Athena, and all the rest. Because her seat of power was ionia, her matriarchal character was maintained through the oral phase of greek history, while the power of the other greek godesses was subsumed under Zeus.
Read a book, anon.

>>52215067
Very nice - someone reads!

>>52203655
With the company?

>Setting interesting to read but the game is shit.
>Better game with a shit setting.

>>52212209
Globalists need workers, preferably workers that can't leave no matter how bad things are.

Tsundere Artemis is moe

>>52209365
OMG a fucking vampire game isn't historically accurate enough for you and that sent you into a nihilism spiral. Sucks to be you, bro.

>>52206926
I'm not seeing what the armpits have to do with the text.

>>52209327

System Mastery is a good podcast but fuck does Jeff sperg out over some really dumb things.

The last game they reviewed even passed his stupid seduction test (if your seduction rules don't require your target to be the opposite sex it passes) but he still complained because the game happened to phrase it something to the tune of "You can seduce people of the opposite (or same) sex."

John is at least pretty reasonable and seems to have a better grasp of the games they review than Jeff does.

>>52212209

The theory I've seen floating around is that since the EU will never form up into an easily rulable nation due to being made of countries with long standing histories and cultural identities, the idea is that by mass importing immigrants you stomp out the finding culture and replace it with a unified one, aka Islam. Once that takes hold then your shadow rulers of choice (Jews, Illuminati, Satanists, 13 Families, etc) then can set into motion taking the reigns since at that point the cultural identity is shot.

I don't know how I feel about part two, but part one under the context of a cultural war sort of thing isn't 100% crazy.

>>52215925
>Seduction test
He should just change it to 'if the target would reasonably find you sexually desirable' if he's getting his undies in a knot over it.

>>52216128

The thing is that 99% of the games they review would still fail because they tend to review old and forgotten games, and outside of the occasional weird artsy game or WoD gameline, very games even acknowledged that gay people existed up until fairly recently.

He knows that. Everyone knows that. He still brings it up anyway.

>>52215526
I think his complaint isn't about historicity, but about the pandering....how do you not see that? omg, bro - sux to be yu

>>52208840
White Wolf was an independent publishing company, which made the World of Darkness urban horror/fantasy setting (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Hunter, etc.), and the Storyteller RPG system.

Eventually, the World of Darkness ended (it had been building up towards the apocalypse for several years), and the company began working on the "New" World of Darkness setting, and a new iteration of their old system to run it. They also made Scion and Exalted around this time.

They ended up getting bought by CCP (the makers of EVE Online), White Wolf itself became a hollow shell to hold the IP, and all the writers ended up working with Onyx Path Productions, which itself worked with the shell of White Wolf to keep making books.

Now that White Wolf got bought by Paradox Interactive (makers of the Crusader Kings video games), the new owners mandated that "New" World of Darkness had to change its name. So now it is called Chronicles of Darkness, while the old stuff is just plain World of Darkness.

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>>52207222
>wildly throws around accusations based on little or no evidence

Get out of here /pol/. Literally anyone from a teacher to a child behavioral psychologist to a day care worker to a fucking parent could possibly know that information

>>52216608
And what do all those people have in common?
They're all degenerates.

For me, it was Beast. bit of a tl;dr coming up, but damn it I want to paint a picture here and now may be the only time to properly bitch.

So I was rolling with White Wolf's shit since ascension because I thought the idea was fucking cool. Now, admittedly, there were some rough patches here and there, but nothing severe enough to make me walk outright. (Admittedly, part of this comes from my unrelenting hatred towards d20 base systems. I can get into them, but oh man have I seen some shit in d20 groups.)

Anyway, I was more of an nWoD Player. Exalted existed but I never found a group for it, and I can say from experience that most oWoD players are either cancer or fucking amazing. (Generally, Dreaming players tended to be the most chill.)

So around this point, my interest had begun to wane; and part of that was because any game that tries to crossover gets complicated as hell because of the weird shit that comes with some cosmologies (Compare the Shadow, the Astral, and Arcadia and the similarities start to get hard to work around, for example.) The other part was Sin Eater, loved the idea, but jesus christ those mechanics; and Lolli was a fucking abomination of a character who could be summarized as 'gender bender club kid drug dealer but totally the good guy!' But, you know, that shit could be ignored. And then God Machine dropped.

Let me tell you, as an old WoD player, that shit was the coolest thing I had seen out of them for years. It was everything I could have asked for in a game about a world superficially similar to ours save supernatural shit and gothic punk shit. Especially the unchained demons. So anyway, I was back on that teat, the chronicle books were coming out and most seemed to be pretty bamf; Forsaken was getting a better karma bar, Mage was consolidating its crossover issues and getting a simpler focus, and even fucking promethean looked like it was getting an update, fucking promethean.
>Continued in next post

>>52216678

What was the deal with the God Machine?

I hear it tossed around occasionally but it never gets more than a few mentions.

>>52216742
I'll give the sales pitch then the sober view;

Sales Pitch
>Imagine a monotheistic god that is Not Yours. It is the thing responsible for the universe yet is so very much outside of it. It lives on the 13th floor of the hotel, in the church where the priest fucks the child, and it Does Not Like You. Well, more that you are a gnat to it, it could annihilate you as mere collateral damage, and yet, it knows exactly who you are. In a way, it made you. See, our planet is part of some grand design for it, our little blue speck has some part to play in the universe, so God sends it's Angels to make sure that everything is going according to plan, and not even the Angels know what that plan is.

Actual Players Perspective
>Pretty dope big bad thing, but unless the ST is good it is the last plot you can meaningfully run; because it's so much 'bigger' than anything else. Think how (hate me as you will) the other monsters in supernatural stopped being a big deal after the whole 'angels and demons' thing became the focus of the show.

>>52216430
OMG a game exists that may not be written to appeal primarily to MRA shitlords who want to act out their barely-concealed rape fantasies. THAT'S PANDERING!

>>52203655
Anne Rice stopped being as popular as she was in her prime, and they never retooled the universe into a dating sim RPG to ride the Twilight train.

>>52216678
So there I was, I was trolling the forums, I had numerous games both as ST and player, and all was right in my little rpger world. Sure, there were issues, but they were contained issues; gender fluid demons were whatever, and any player that went all gender/race theory on me was merely a difference of opinion. Then the Beast kickstarter hit.

Now, at the start, I was skeptical. WoD has done some funky shit over the years, but IMHO Beast was an outlier. See, most of their shit had some basis in folklore, especially if it got it's own sourcebook. For me, the gamelines could be explained as 'modern fantasy where you play a vampire,werewolf,whatevs.' And if you wanted your own beastie, hunter and core had homebrew. But Beast? Other than the 'children of Tiamut' thing, I couldn't get a read, but that was alright, because I could still work with it. Now, about now Onyx Path had been only giving out a 'delux' book (read; bound like the old ones) if you kickstartered, so I did.

That is around the point that cracks start appearing in my rose colored goth specks. See, there was a fuckton more chatter and previews than with the other books, at least that I had noticed; problem is, none of the sneak peeks were actually exciting. First off, Beasts are supposed to be 'related' to all other supernaturals in the setting excluding angels and demons, so their main trick was to ape another monster and count as that for detection type shit. Slight problem with this; that was the demons thing, that's what made them cool and scary in a world with fucking wizards and vampires, that they looked human no matter what you threw at them until they decided to show themselves. Now, with demon, it made sense, since the Big Bad Thing of that setting is God and how in the fuck do you hide from that? With beasts, it was more about 'choosing your own family.'

And that would be a running theme in Beast, where the idea was OK but the execution was just so fucking terrible.
>Cont

>>52216871
If you think WoD wasn't a dating sim from day one then you obviously don't know enough goths.

>>52216927

I thought oWoD was being a bunch of blood powered angsty superheroes with trench coats and katanas?

>>52217018
Hey.

That was just the vampires. Most of the other games were about non-blood powered angst monsters brooding around in trench coats and mesh tanktops.

>>52216921
So, Beast. Maybe I should give some context for some of it's weird before I bitch about the straw that broke my back. Like other systems, there was a fuckton of homebrew in WoD, generally new options or new monsters. Now this ranged from prestige class like things to something silly like dragons or magical girls, or just a pile of terribad and salt like Genius. Beast, it ate those. It made no bones about becoming the new go to for DIY monsters because 'children of nightmares can be fuck near anything!' But hey, once I started seeing the allusions to Greek monsters and earlier I started to get a little jazzed for it, it was starting to take shape.

Then an author opened their trap. Now, to all aspiring creative types, open your trap as much as you want, but understand that these people are going to be your consumers, you need to at least hear them out. Getting back to storytiem, the issue in question was the morality of these beasts. See, they literally feed on pain, that's their jam. So you chose a 'prey/sustenance' that ranged from anything to theft to fucking torturing someone into changing their lives out of fear of you. It was explicit that pain was the end goal, hurt a lot of people, or hurt one person in a way they'll never forget, and you get your juice back. The example given was 'yeah, you can rob a bank, and that's filling. Or you can steal someones heirloom watch that is the only thing they have to remember mom by, that's a three course meal.' Now, this is WoD, so a bit of grimdark is not an issue, the problem arose when you compare this to the Big Bad Thing of this setting, 'Heroes.' I.e. humans so scarred that they are driven to kill your ass disquiet style. Now, the author was going off on wanting to subvert the hero's tale a little bit, but if you eat pain, not just to survive but merely for superpowers, then I'm sorry, you are the bad guy even if Murderhobo Mcnomoralcompass is your enemy. But again, that is just sloppy, not a deal breaker

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>>52217018
>>52217064

It makes me sad that White Wolf/Onyx Path will never be this kind of rad ever again.

>>52217098
God I wish that was a full book.

>>52217087
Anyway, since the author was talking, people were asking. There was a ton of stuff on 'why can't beasts ape demons?' and shit like that. Tbh I was more concerned with wizards or sin eaters because they were born human, but I was willing to see where shit lead. The problem arose when the author made reference to a cthuluspawn homebrew he drew inspiration from, particularly the 'everyone things your unnatural so you have to choose your own family, you know, like LGBT!'

And that is how beast and it's fictions became a hamfisted metaphor for being gay or trans or what have you. Beasts, as in 'feeds on peoples misery and their very presence can scar people for life' beasts, as in Grendel and Leviathan type shit. Yeah, that was the straw. See, I' wasn't offended over the comparison, I was annoyed that after the money had been dished out the product had become, by an authors own admission, a political thing.

Anyway, it went downhill from there, instead of talking about making a good game, a fuckton of time was spent on talking about the politics of the piece, after a good chunk of people had paid for it. Then, an author arose that said that they did not want a single straight/white/cis in the fictions or offered NPCs. )Admittedly, that one was hearsay from a friend, I avoided the forums like the plague because I wanted no part of that mess.) Either way, thing after thing was 'claimed' as a metaphor for LGBT shit instead of just playing a fucking monster. Still, it was one game and they already had my money, so I'd judge for myself when the book actually came out

Upon receiving my copy, it was not as atrocious as expected, but the politics were there, and when paired with lackluster explanations or tie ins to folklore to actually spur ideas, it just spoiled the whole thing for me, especially when I stumble upon one of their own little 'messages' to the players in one of the other books.
>tl;dr and closure in next post

I can't even make fun of the shit in this thread, honestly. It's so fucking bad that you should be making fun of yourselves. With a rope.

>>52217251
So yeah, that was longer than anticipated, sorry about that. But yeah, I still play from time to time, and I may buy a book in the future after extreme vetting, but after that debacle they had destroyed almost all of my faith that they could make a game worth playing.

>tl;dr: Loyal Anon kickstarts beast and sloppy politics ruin an otherwise ok game idea.

>>52216858
You went and sperged out, kid. go back to redit.

>>52209009

Let's be honest, it describes both.

>>52217251

>Beasts, as in 'feeds on peoples misery and their very presence can scar people for life'
>as a metaphor for LGBT shit

I feel like the authors are undermining their own cause without even realizing it.

>>52217671
You have no idea, literally the whole book is stained with that undermining political nonsense. The Big Bad Thing that is heroes, you want to know what makes them? Beasts victimizing them in their dreams. But 'they are bad because they think the stories about THEM and they force their view of the world on beasts!" While totally glossing over the whole 'victims with the predilection to fight back.' angle

>>52216858
>expecting people to not wail and gnash their teeth over the very idea that a game that doesn't pander exclusivly to their own interests exists

>on /tg/

Where do you think you are? "Stop liking what I don't like" is this board's creed

>>52217098
They never were, thats an april fools thing.

>>52217671

Man, you have no idea.

There's a little girl in a coma wandering the dreamscape. She was abducted by a Beast into its dream-lair, killed it, escaped, but can't get into her body. She spends her days saving people's sanities by killing Beasts in the dreamscape while trying to figure out how to get home, like a 13 year old samurai jack in a coma instead of the future.

She's a villain.

Psychobitch the not-a-werewolf who kills dudes for hitting on her and Old Gramma Childmolester who abducts kids and traumatizes them for kicks are the good guys.

Fuck Beast.

>>52211509
I played the Mage prelude. It wasn't terrible. The Technocracy ending was played well, especially when you start reading the minds of the refugees.

>>52217982
The Vampire one is so much worse.

>>52217962
Isn't there also one who burned alive the Beast who raped her?

>>52216466
Took this long for a straight answer. Thanks senpai.

>>52217862
>>52217483
And the best part about it is dudes like Edward Cheetohands here don't even realize how fucking ridiculous they are when they get triggered by anything that isn't GURPS.

>>52216858

Congrats on feeding into the whole notion that gay people are mentally ill and have to insert their illness wherever they go!

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ooh, it's still butthurt!
come on, faget - post moar, you butthurt fuck! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>52217671
>>52217704

If not for all the insitance that Beast is somehow an empowering LGBT metaphor or whatever, I swear it seems like it's the kind of thing the tumblr crowd would scream about for being "problematic" for glorifing abuse and victim blaming and all that

>>52217962
Oh fuck, I forgot about her. Shit man, if I ever do run again I might have to cannibalize that idea for the party.

>>52218138
That's why it's really hard to channel political shit into your work. Either it winds up hopelessly dated and not worth touching if you aren't invested, or you get a steaming pile that doesn't even do what you want it to.

It is hard if not impossible to do politics and art/game at the same time and have both work.

>>52218160

Which is why they should stay away from it.

>>52218138

It's a pretty scathing critique of privileged LGBT tumblrites and they don't even realize it.

Is it possible to play Beast as the Heroes? That seems like a much more interesting game desu.

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>>52218189
#notallbeasts

>>52218276
You're better off playing it in something like Mutants and Masterminds, making skill and equipment based dudes. Or hell, GURPS even. Storyteller is bad for those kinds of games.

>>52218276
Kind of, but they have systems to make sure that Heroes are Monstrous! So, you know, think of the same issues as playing a slasher.

>>52218276
Just play Hunter. Same shit. Plus, you get to be Dante.

>>52218330
This makes me upset that there's no straightforward point-buy game that can let me play a modern action hero dude. It's all draped in capeshit or so addled by extraneous rules that I have to spend forever cutting shit out.

>>52208916
There's no asshole who's become less of an asshole from getting bullied.

I mean, look at the average 4chan user.

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>>52218189
I just had a crazy thought, what if the reason all the progressive crap is so shoe horned in and overblown the way it is because Onyx Path is actualy mocking the SJW crowd, but since they bought it hook line and sinker the dev's are now just playing along to keep those sweet sweet tumblr dollars coming in?

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>>52217263
WW used to be a lot more fun

>>52218398
Savage Worlds maybe? All the super power and magic junk is off in it's own secton in the back.

>>52218443
If only it were that thought out, bro. If only.

>>52218330
I do this a lot. Just take some Power Level 8 to 10 dudes, make yourself some templates for the supernaturals, then go to town telling the same stories you would but without a shit system. I ended up doing this for Scion and Exalted too.

>>52218398
GURPS Action, as that has everything out of the box.

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>>52218454

>>52218462
If anybody is interested, I could see about writing up the templates I use and posting them sometime tomorrow

>>52218460
Savage Worlds might be good. Would need some investigation

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>>52218530

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>>52218588

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>>52218624

>>52218624
>>52218647
how the fuck did they go from this to the fucking awful shit they are pushing now?

>>52203655
Shitty published adventures where the npcs were Mary Sues, and the actions of the players didn't matter. We were not npc slaying murder hobos at the start of that VtM: dark ages campaign. By the the modern era started, we were responsible for extinguishing several clans.

>>52218682
Well, at the same time she existed there were also hippie werewolves who enjoyed yiff orgies and protested so it wasn't totally great back in the day.

>>52218770
I guess the answer is that they have always been chasing that edge, once goth yiff orgies got tame because of the internet they had to go full fucking retard to pretend to still be edgier than your average jackoff

>>52218138

The Tumblr peeps I know are pissed as hell at it but there are, like, a creepy amount of people who are just 'this is what I want my life to be like'.

>>52218945
Wait a minute are you trying to say that not all degenerate sex fetishists are actually just harmless normal people?

People of Color me surprised!

>>52218189
Only if you confuse "LGBT" with "literally evil incarnate". If you don't, then it's just an inaccurate metaphor, and if you do, you have bigger problems.

>>52218682

It's like you never lived in the 80's and got to hear the kind of music that goths listened to.

Like half that shit was about being gay, or how being gay is hard because your family disowns you.

They've always been of this vein, it's just that the faggy goths used to be balanced out by the punks and metalheads and industrialists.

Problem is that ALL those things, homosexuality, goth, industrial, punk, emo, have been co-opted by SJW leftists.

>>52219002

Gays are now owned by the coastal elites. Maybe if they took a stand against their shit being used to push a degenerate agenda things wouldn't be this way. They chose this cuck life.

>>52219002
fuck off, retard

>>52217897
Back when they still understood humor instead of just being SJW reactionary faggots.

>>52219514
You can understand the concept of humor and still be aware of reality. In fact, it's easier to be conscious if you understand what humor actually is than if you treat it like a magic word that makes facts go away.

>>52219563
kys lol

>>52218432

I'm not talking about jerks.

I'm talking about weenies.

>>52219642

peruse this thread and tell me these aren't all defensive weenies insisting they know how to properly bully a "common enemy" that only exists in their heads, though.

>>52219661

Fair enough.


I'm in no way endorsing bullying.

But at the same time there were kids in my high school who actually wore tails and ears. I just don't know how to feel about that.

>>52207800

Enjoy four thousand pages of superfluous charms.

>>52219674
>white wolf thread
>turns into a conversation about bullying
kek

>>52219727
Off the top of my head craft is the only ability I can think of that had any notable Cass of filler charms. The rest of the charm trees all had stuff that needed to be there.
Regardless, I'd take it over stealths four whole fucking charms in second any day.

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>>52216858

>>52222675

Frankly I'm just happy to HAVE charms instead of being told 'Lol just write your own we don't need to give you powers to work with"

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>>52216858
>implying literally anything tries to pander to MRAs
Oy

>>52217087
>a pile of terribad and salt like Genius
Is Genius really that bad? I heard it was some of the _good_ WoD homebrew

>>52216181
He doesn't just bring it up, he will spend a couple minutes every episode talking about the phrasing if he deems it offensive/exclusionary.

Which it is all the time, because they are reading stuff written by one guy in his garage in 1991 and he didn't care about teh gays.

>>52215925
If the podcast was two Jons it would be a lot better. You could run a counter of the number of times an episode that Jon needs to correct Jef about something he's complaining about because it turns out Jef misread the book.

>>52216466
>independent publishing company

Does that label really apply, though? They were bigger than TSR for a while in the 90's, they have many well-known properties and a large in-house staff of writers, editors, artists, etc. They are one of the tentpoles of RPGs for the past ~25 years.

'Independent' is one of those weasel words, especially in RPG development, where it doesn't have a lot of meaning.

>>52216653
>all parents are degenerates
Yup, sounds like /pol/

>>52203655
You stopped liking what other people started liking.

>>52216035
>Islam
>unified culture
This is what /pol/ actually believes

>>52203655
Either way their general is hilarious, I always go there when I need a laugh.

>>52209427
They do do things like that. But another reason the goddesses tend towards slutty identities - they go over indirectly in I think the Hinduism book, about explicitly virginal or committed monogamous deities and by implication everyone else - is that they need these divinities to produce lots of kids so you can fucking play them.

Adoption isn't always satisfying and neither are the other styles of sponsorship, sometimes you just want to be a scion of Lakshmi straight-up. They provide some advice for playing games with it, like maybe Lakshmi is banging her husband's mortal incarnation or something.

I think new Scion solves the issue more directly by just removing explicit biological origins as a necessity, yes? You can become a Hero a few ways now?

>>52226210
Think of it less as a unified culture, and more as a unified value system. Just like how France, England, America, and most other western countries all have different cultures, but nearly identical values.

>>52226243
>I think new Scion solves the issue more directly by just removing explicit biological origins as a necessity, yes? You can become a Hero a few ways now?

Yeah, there's more options for adoption, being born with Legend because fuck you lore, and playing things like satyrs (with two divine parents) or werewolves (that are forced into a relationship with Fate), or just being a mortal who someone gets to be a Hero.

Their super-crap base-level book is a terrible idea in many ways, but it does give space for different ways to become a Hero.

>>52208956
Oh gee whiz three whole side bars damn son

>>52207800
> Nwod > Owod

How can someone be so plebeian is beyond me. Cry me fucking Styx rivers for muh metaplot and wallow happily with your void, empty non-characters/types/settings.

>>52208101
The material itself is shit. That's it.

>>52207094
Autistic preschool children. But then again White Wolf never targetted "neurotypical" customers to begin with.

>>52208918

This is the same White Wolf who went and wrote a horrifically racist rulebook about Gypsies.

>>52227130
But anon: 'gypsy' ain't a race.....

>>52227183
>Romani don't exist

If you're gonna say that then 'white' isn't a race either.

>>52227318
'white' isn't a race. Caucasian is though.

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>>52227318
I luv that you read "gypsy ain't a race" as "romani don't exist" - I mean, are you aware of your raging stupidity? Does it dawn on you that you are completely fucking retarded? Or do you actually believe the lies you tell yourself?

>>52217962
Anon I don't think you understand...
In Beast you play a monster
not a human that learned cosmic secrets and its losing himself to power
or a human that was cursed with inmortality and its losing his human side to an eternal hunger
That shit about "helping others beat their
problems" its just a mental jack off beasts tell themselves to justify their actions.
in the end they are monsters and monsters feed.

>>52223327
The problem with genius is that it is explicitly trying to be ascension, but it's not, so throughout the books it keeps taking digs at New Mage, which gets old quickly. And because it's trying to be ascension, the fluff ranges from funky to just plain awful. Now, because new world of darkness has some scaling issues if you aren't careful, geniuns runs screaming into mages issues of scale but without something like paradox to really hold them back.

Now, it's not the worst, mind you, and its one of the better put together books as far as format and homebrew, but they are very hard to impliment in a game well. If you prefferred ascension, its simple as dirt to change the fluff and bring back spell reqs

>>52227564
See, I want to believe you there, I really do, because I can see some of that. The problem is either some of the authors didn't get the memo or are just very good spin doctors. Blend this with sloppy, on the nose politics and some nonintuitive mechanics and you get Beast.

And this is coming from the anon that got burnt, I'll still play beast, but it did one hell of a number on my confidence in WW.

>>52227329
>>52227477
>>52227183
>dude look how smart I am, using terms in the academic sense in a conversation among laymen and pouncing on any who fail to follow my semantics

You nerds are cut from the cloth as the "non-whites can't be racist" crowd and just as annoying.

>>52209050
D&Dfag, sorry, but your system is way too demanding, time-taking and simply annoying as well as quadratic. You guys don't create characters, you create sheets to go combat and do thingies to tell others being cool, not actual, you know, role playing? Too much game, not enough meaningful RPing.

>>52210802
And systems not being super mega metric nor allowing them to exploit them to win win and win. Boo hoo!

>>52211509
>3. The collapse of AD&D

Elaborate on this please, good sir.

>>52227720
>authors didn't get the memo
yeah that's actually a problem with several CoD books, some of the people the hired as co writers didn't had a deep understanding of the game also it doesn't help that they sometimes use a unrealiable narrator like in the first awakening corebook, along the book they explain to you the atlantis dogma only to tell you at the end that the masters are always hiding things from students and the truth its deeper down the rabbit hole, atlantis its the reflection on the surface of the mistery of the fall and the nature of reality. did people caught that? no they focused on the atlantis thing being a real city mages chase instead of a symbol

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>>52216678
>part of this comes from my unrelenting hatred towards d20 base systems

I've barely read up to this one phrase and you're already pic related.

>>52203655
Nothing.

White Wolf ended perfectly, back in 1996.

Fortunately no one did anything insane and stupid like create a shut-down line of lore-busting pieces of shit that ended all the mysteries. I'm still hoping they retain the rights and never let anyone publish any 3rd party "anniversary" editions or some shit that take everything cool about the individual supplements and pour them all together into a giant shit-stew. And as long as no one tries a complete reboot, it'll remain the perfect, gothic-horror game.

>>52207118
In my school if you were disruptive, the teacher wrote a note that your parents had to sign. Everyone who got those notes regularly signed those themselves and iIt became a bit of a sport to get them from as many different teachers as possible.

>>52211016
Really? I'm not that familiar with WW stuff so could anyone elaborate?

>>52228974
There is nothing to elaborate on.

Paranoid /pol/tards are just incapable of distinguishing between their "SJW!!!!1!" bogeyman and the fact that literate people tend not to hold as stupid of ideas as they do.

Just like everyone else who writes book, White Wolf tends to be more liberal than a certain group of internet posters, who can't see beyond:
>ZOMG u used a feminine pronoun?
>Censorship feminazi socialist SJW faggotz!

>>52207222
Go to bed, Alex Jones.

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>>52228119
Alright, let's rewind the clock back to 199x. AD&D 2e is the most high-profile RPG in existence, partially because of the controversies but mainly because of the advertising blitz: Crack open a Marvel comic and you'll see 1-2 full page ads for AD&D.

Next, consider that many RPGs sold themselves as alternatives to D&D, whether as more realistic and versatile (GURPS) or more mature and gritty (World of Darkness). AD&D served as the gateway to the medium, much as high-profile capes served as gateways to comics. Little Timmy might march into the store expecting to buy Batman/AD&D but suddenly he catches wind of The Sandman/World of Darkness and buys that instead.

AD&D was horribly mismanaged by Lorraine Williams (although Gygax and the Blumes didn't help either). Adventures (of which there were very many) became heavily balkanized, very hard to remove from whatever setting they were written for. There was no more cash to pay the printers. Products were delayed. Ads stopped being run. AD&D dropped out of popular consciousness and so did RPGs. It was a parallel of the 90s comics crash: The big dogs sink and the little dogs get crushed underneath them.

>>52229486
I'm not sure any of that has anything to do with WoD.

Also I don't think 2e had the post '94 popularity that you seem to think it did. WOD was in its heyday 93-96. Hot Topic sold clan shirts and The Book of Nod. I don't think the collapse of 2e went wrong for WOD. It went right. This mis-management that exploded from that success might'a fucked them a bit, though. They got too ambitious and ruined their own lore. They expanded on the back of success. Hunter and Trinity were harbingers of "well let's double down on our success by focusing on random-ass new products that are unrelated to them." I mean I guess they blew it the same way 2e did. But still not sure how 2e's downfall is what went wrong with WOD.

>>52216742
it's a big dumb thing that does big dumb things for no good reason and plasters everything it does with lousy biomechanical aesthetics that are as hollow and meaningless as steampunk

>>52216742
Serves the same purpose as most big bads in wod games. Its there, does vaguely bad stuff, scope depends on exactly what your DM wants to do with it.

>>52229602
I think what he really means is the collapse of CCGs/TCGS. Which destroyed the brick and mortar roleplaying publishing industry by association.

>>52230688
The collapse?

CCGs didn't collapse with 2e. I remember buying the hardback book sized box of Magic, back-when, for thirty bucks. I mean trying to capitalize on it (thankfully) killed Dragonlance, sure. But what collapse of CCGs? Magic didn't even come out until what, 94? And what are you talking about, with the collapse of brick and mortar flgs? They were always iffy, they never got more or less iffy. They're comic and games and hobby shops, and none have ever done particularly well or necessarily poorly. It's some mom and pop with a model train store whose nerd-son lives in the back and has a hobby room, upstairs. There are boom-and-bust cycles for each IP, but RPG sales have gone steadily up, non-stop. They have never busted. Neither have CCGs, or even miniature wargames. They have gone up, and never gone down.

>>52203655
they became obsolete, they handled their IPs poorly, they caused a schism to their community with nWoD, someone bought them and since then all WoD related material is held hostage by companies that don't know how to utilize its potential properly

>>52228974

One of the monsters you can play as is a Beast, which is basically a magical otherkin that feeds of people's terror. Unlike most other monsters, Beasts don't have a real morality stat, so you can be as much of a prick as you want. Instead of going for the villain protagonist angle, the company decided that you terrorizing innocent people is "a valuable learning experience" or something, which most people see as a weak excuse at best, and victim blaming at worst.

>>52215658
>I'm not seeing what the armpits have to do with the text.
She didn't shave her armpits so she's a feminazi, I guess

>>52231164
Feel exactly the same way that I do, do exactly what I want you to, always, or you are literally the enemy of every human being on planet Earth that I associate with myself in any way.

And if that doesn't seem logical to you? You are an SJW feminazi. Or a Muslim. But basically it's the same thing.

>>52227841
There are other systems than d20

>>52231164
Because repeated observations indicate if you're a girl & you who don't shave your armpits & can't interpret "sons" generically to mean "all people", you're most likely a hyperbolic and annoying jizmop like >>52231222

>>52231542
It's just so lame.

It has everything to do with them. Nothing to do with anyone else. They see the world that way, so the whole world is out to get them, because "that's just facts."

It's so incredibly dull.

When did nerds let /pol/tards in? We should agree on a minimum reading-level, before we accept these faggots into internet-culture.

>>52231542
Wait, I just understood the possibility that you weren't making a joke. Body hair is now a measure of the degree to which someone is your enemy?

Because that's really weird.

>>52211509
>>Technocracy
>> Anti-immigration
What the fuck? That's a 180 on their longstanding policies for what reason exactly?

>>52231675
>I love the smell of my own farts
>I am incapable of interpreting jovial criticism levied at ideologies that aren't my own

>>52231739
No it just makes you an annoying jizzmop

>>52217483
>no one on 4chan performs autism spergs

>>52216858

Yes, yes I am a shitlord. And, you, little SJW, are my SHIT BITCH

>>52229148

You're acting like it's a strawman when their writers are actually full on SJW. They 100% are. You can agree with them all you like. I'm not going to force you to not be politically retarded. But trying to deny that they aren't deeply invested in leftist feminism is delusional.

>>52231955

This, right here, is why the people playing apologist to the political bullshit should care that WW spews political bullshit. They keep gutting the games of any nuance. The bad guys hold all the opinions they disagree with. The good guys hold opinions they agree with. They turned a game about Coast to Coast AM listeners fighting the Illerminaty into Democrats fighting Republicans.

>>52228268
See also Exalted - Infernals with its wildly split tone, and almost all the Werewolf: the Forsaken books.

On risk of heresy, I will say that there was nothing wrong with nWoD. The setting had become so incestuously up its own ass that it was hard to get into and follow, and the principle of not having a metaplot in the gameline was a sound idea. The changes to the mechanics, while rough around the edges and Forsaken was just ass, were overall an improvement

>>52233826

If the right-wingers are the Technocracy, the Traditions can get fucked. If I'm a mage, I'm not fighting the Agents from The Matrix to save trannies, SJWs and goths.

ALL HAIL THE TECHNOCRACY!

>>52216035
It's not about a nationalist project, it's about Demographics. The average European can't afford to have babies anymore and to support that welfare state and to keep that social contract going, they have to import an unskilled labor force because a welfare state needs a constantly expanding tax base in order to maintain solvency. Unfortunately, they've decided to import it from the middle East and from countries that have trouble wrapping their heads around the idea that it's not okay to rape people because they show some ankle and people see this, are told to shut up when they see this and, as a result, they're pissed.

>>52230783
In the mid to late 90s there was a collapse in Magic and the glut of copycat games that had been keeping a lit of FLGS afloat after Comics busted in '93. White Wolf lost both Jyhad and it's Werewolf Apocalypse CCGs in it.

>>52234113
>nWoD
I agree. I felt it a fresh breath that captured the point of WoD without all the massive baggage and madness attached.

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>left goes left so hard they loose their audience

>>52203655
snake devouring his own tail

>>52207800

>Ex3 > ex2/1

I'll let you know if this is true when my physical copy from the Kickstarter ever gets here.

>>52217251

>I was annoyed that after the money had been dished out the product had become, by an authors own admission, a political thing.

It was always a political thing, even before the Kickstarter the Main Developer was already well in the "metaphor for Feminism and LGBT" camp. (See the RPg.net preview thread where he compared everyone who disagreed about his vision for heroes MRA's).

Beast always felt incredibly juvenile and subversion of classic stories out of spite, rather than any particular grand idea.

>>52218276

Matt McFarland has said that as long as he runs the line Heroes will NEVER be playable.

>>52231675

/pol/ might be full of shit, rife with disagreement, and hypocritical sometimes (often), but don't dismiss them as stupid. A lot of the special interest boards are what happened to /b/'s brain - /pol/ just shows it's ancestry more clearly.

This may be the wrong place to ask, and if so I apologise, but how does one find a cWod group these days?

>>52216035

I don't think cultural identity loss happens if it is replace with islam (unified culture). Replacement of one cultural identity does not mean that the new identity is somehow easier to co-opt. This assumes that islam actually is an unified cultural identity.

Creating conditions for civil war is another thing that could be possible through immigration. Create a substantial minority, that is then congregated together into an 'enemy' of the nation, and we get to enjoy Ukraine. This could be dealt with integration and equal treatment. If agitators dont end up inflaming the whole shebang.

Rambling a bit here.

>>52216653

So, your parent was a degenerate?

>>52217251

Lairs, Heroes, etc could have been made into part of a Centamani's quest to become a true monster. Beast didn't need it's own gameline.

>>52227670
Honestly, I prefer a Hybrid of the two games. I imagine that the "Council of Mystical Traditions" and "Freethinker's Union" were both predecessors of the FC, both of whom fought against both the Diamond and each other as the Seers sat back and laughed. The Diamond eventually get it's shit together and smash the two groups, forcing them underground where they became the Nameless. They nursed their wounds, realized they weren't so different after all, and banded together to build their numbers and take the fight back to the diamond.

The seers saw this as an opportunity, and you know the rest. Free Council members with extremely anti-diamond positions are nicknamed "Dragonslayers" and regarded as fringe lunatics.

>>52203655
SJWs

>>52209153
>I still like the System Mastery review where they complain about how all the goddesses are either mother figures or sexual figures, with no sense of irony.
>What is mythology
>What is the ancient symbolism of the power and meaning of the mother figure in ancient human beliefs
Oh right, they're dumb millennial who fail to understand ancient mythology, its deeper meaning or context.

>>52207118
Also, take away points for misbehavior. This will lead to hazing, but that's actually desirable, especially with antisocial defectives who can only understand pain.

Works for the military.

>>52216466
>White Wolf was an independent publishing company

When you have multiple imprints, you're not even slightly independent.

>>52203655
Look, let's be real it was always this bad at being all anti-western society, anarcho-communist neo-pagan and proto-SJW bullshit. What changed, however, is that the attitude and behavior of the people writing these games got worse and worse. During the NWoD era it was being toned down because we had left the '90 and it's 'EDGY!' style and back then it was more favorable and marketable to make a World of Darkness which was less glutted with bad metaplot and author posturing. That is how we got the far, far less ideologically driven NWoD. Unfortunately, a lot of people who grew up on the OWoD and diehard fans really hated it for not being the WoD they knew and loved, missing the point of why such a game got made.

Eventually we ended up with the 20th anniversary of the OwoD, which conceptually was fine and cool: updated rules and compiled setting. Conceptually great and a surprisingly good production value on these books. So what went wrong? Well, at this point internet outrage culture and SJW were all the rage which vindicated everything single bad idea and behavior the OWoD once glorified. Suddenly it wasn't JUST about agenda-pushing, no, you had to ATTACK YOUR OPPONENTS IN THE BOOKS! Problem is, as we know, SJW see anyone not part of their rank as the enemy. Oh and they're immature douchebags with overblown ego. You can guess what this create when this shit got unchallenged.

You get shit like Beast. And Mage 20th. Whatever nuance which was slightly there is not only gone but a lot of the politic is simply too much there to ignore. Not only that but these writers are not above fucking up their own setting just to vent their impotent, childish rage. This is how you end with >>52212209

>>52218530
Is that oglaf character a parody of this one?

>>52240106
Bullfuckingshit. OWoD always had that element of rage and rebellion but it was a more general "Fight the System!" Tone and it was easy enough to make a more conservative or traditional character who fit into that mold. You can't do that with current crop of slack jawed, wilting lollies at OPP.

>>52240106

IIRC, one of the Umbral Underground members was refered to as having an "unhealthy level of nationalism" by her technocrat handlers before she went marauder. So yeah, they are changing the setting to fit an agenda rather than recognizing that things aren't so cut and dry.

>>52231542
>"sons"

Why they sent me daughters, when I asked for sons.

>>52233299

What does that even mean. It comes across as BLAHBLAHBLAH to me

>>52235276

They could also choose to increase the pay for shit jobs, but nope, no chance for reduced wealth inequality.

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>>52216858
>MRA shitlords who want to act out their barely-concealed rape fantasies. THAT'S PANDERING!

>People blaming /pol/ before /pol/ was even a thing for White Wolf's failure
I'm pretty sure was the metaplot, It was often so bad between versions the previously bad guys became the good guys because most people couldn't stand the "good" guys, WoD is the only game that could convince Berniebros to vote Trump out of pure spite.

>>52208219
>She dresses slovenly
>dresses slovenly

Slovenly is not an adverb.

the rest is shit as well[/spoiler

>>52203655

tl;dr: The goth fad ended.

There was a lot wrong at WW: Rumors of drug problems, a reputation for shady business practices. Politicization, which got worse as a new generation took over and couldn't marry propaganda to good gaming content as the original writers did. It stopped being the New Thing and just became a Thing. Called on to be creative, they eventually ran out of ideas and started down the road to self-parody. They didn't like or respect their own fans, and gradually started writing towards a neckbeard greasy gamer stereotype that never really did their fans justice (or, if it did, they certainly didn't want to spend money on content dripping with contempt for them). The publishers stopped caring about quality and started pushing pretty much anything out the door (they'd almost never playtested stuff even in their glory days).

WW pushed a new play style, a relentless focus on narrative and de-emphasis on the "game" part. This was a departure from AD&D, which was a very game-driven kind of RPG. So oWoD's mechanics were simple, to keep the focus on the story. Balance and realism problems were no big deal, because again the focus was elsewhere. People looked down their noses at good mechanics.

So then you saw other games borrow the best ideas from VtM and its ilk. Suddenly you could play other games and get that same story, or almost the same story... PLUS good game mechanics and something other than modern horror, which had become cliche. Which leads us to....

Finally, people just got bored playing the same game over and over again. When VtM came out, TSR and traditional tolkienesque fantasy was old and tired and out of ideas (plus falling apart as a business). VtM was a breath of fresh air (unless you'd already played CoC).

So then the early 2000s rolls around. WW and modern horror were old and tired and out of ideas (plus falling apart as a business). D&D3.x was a breath of fresh air (unless you'd already played AD&D).

>>52242991
It doesn't make sense why they didn't switch to following the Emo fad, which exploded in popularity at the exact same time the goth fad ended.

>>52240537

In the "good" old days, WW was pretty political, too.

If something changed, it's that when Vampire came out, the soviet union had just fallen and the Left in general was on the defensive. Also, any company being perceived as overly political was seen as a bad business move. Especially for a tiny startup that was eager to prove itself and win any customers they could.

Whereas for the past ten years, the Left has thought of itself as unassailably, permanently ascendant. Also, left-wing culture has changed. You have to make big displays of hate and be willing to attack your ideological enemies. IRS investigations, violence, boycotts, etc. You've got to show that you want to HURT them. Companies these days are willing, even eager, to engage in not just lobbying but political activism unrelated to their business.

White Wolf already being very left-wing, it's no surprise that the writers (when they're not writing angry huffpo rants) are cheerfully trying to build back their once-huge market via catering to at best the 5-10% of the most radical of their customers.

If that sounds stupid, well. Yes, it is, but not unusual. Some of the major news magazines, websites, tv networks, and newspapers have all tried this tack. The issue is that while it may not be good for the masthead (in this case, WW), it builds the name and credibility of the individual author within his professional community.

>>52243139

Because not all subcultures are interested in RPGs.

Metalheads had a dedicated group of RPG fans because the music itself drew on christian and tolkienesque imagery. So you could appeal to those guys, or at least some of them.

Early goths saw themselves as intellectuals, artistes: Smart, Emotionally Sensitive people who were in touch with their creative sides and fluent in poetry and literature, especially romantic era. Vampire literature obviously does as well. That central core spawned a legion of imitators at least not hostile to those ideas, and often who at least tried to feign the same characteristics.

OK so far, but now how do you sell RPGs to fans of gangsta rap? What about country music? What game would geezers in the Rave scene play? Some subcultures just don't lend themselves to gaming, at least not as they're currently imagined, and a small publisher doesn't have the mojo to move that dial themselves.

Hippies might have been a valid target, especially for a game like Changeling, but WW never really tried and the nouveau-hippie movement of the 80s was over by the time WW got big anyway. Punk kind of fits, at least some types of it. There are some signs that WW tried from time to time to go after both goths and punks. But their hearts were never really in it. There were lots of goths at WW, but no real punks, at least not ones who were in the punk scene.

When a new subculture pops up that is gamer-friendly, I don't think WW will be the company that figures out how to appeal to them anyway. Instead, some other new company will pop up without their baggage.

>>52238345
Too bad Mortal Remains already made them playable.

>>52242991
>>52243144
>>52243384

This. And they ruined their relation with gamestores by publishing tons of expansion book and forcing them to buy that shit in bulk. Of course, nobody cared that much about the Vampires of Chicago, everyone turned their home city into their own little sandbox.

So stores stopped buying their books. I tried to look for a 2nd Edition of NWoD Vampire as the first one was incredibly broken (Do you want to buy something that could be essentially considered a flaw for 8 XP / dot? Oh dear, you began play with 3 disciplines at 1, it'll cost you to catch up.) and it was practically the story every store in my region held.

>>52242772
>when anon wants to sound to intelligent for the conversation but doesn't understand that English makes extensive use of clippings, i.e. "she dresses (in a) slovenly (manner)"

>>52206926
>>52208970
It was published by Onyx Path. It was written by Phil Brucato, the Guy who had the line developer slot from the middle of 1st edition until just before revised.

Even Shadowrun has a better system.

>>52208219
What is this from?

>>52243665
slovenlyly indeed

>>52244660
Yeah but at least WoD doesn't have fucking elves.

>>52232764
Yeah, fair 'nuff - it just gets tiring, y'know? The same /pol/ screeching, the same stupidity, the same lies - I just want all the cancer to die: is that so wrong?
Kids repeating things that other kids screeched years ago, without realizing that it was all a joke in the first place.....ugh........cancerous fuckheads.

>>52209153
>splitting the core rules into two books

This is what really makes me hesitant around 2e. If they fuck up the lore or Deities you can just take the fluff from 1e and use the likley better 2e crunch.

But having all the core rules in the 'Mortal' book and having the actual Scion stuff in a separate one shows a lack of understanding around the core hook.

NO ONE who picks up Scion will ever want to play a regular, 'unawoken' mortal outside maybe a first session. Making book 1 only that is a huge mistake which will only drive off possible players/buyers.

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>>52226582
>empty non-characters/types
this is only because you're a shitty roleplayer

>>52245102
The screeching will not stop because a huge chunk of modern /pol/ is the byproduct of the worst insanities of the modern left. And I know some people will go REEE HE SHITTALKED THE LEFT GO BACK TO /POL/! But see, I'm actually a moderate.

Unfortunately, we're not really welcome anymore. And some people take that worse than me and turn to /pol/ because the SJW refuse to acknowledge the pitfalls of their madness and call anyone who disagree with them a nazi. /pol/ is mostly just autistic neckbeard edgelords, they don't really wield any power. All they do is react and keep trolling the insane left, which keep taking the fucking bait because none of them understand the concept of 'don't feed the troll'.

>>52215925
Derailing for a bit - is there any other podcast like System Mastery, at least with a similar level of banter? Kind of like My Brother My Brother and Me and that Tekken youtube show Avoiding the Puddle, something about the way they start getting into their off topic subjects. Well aware my taste is shit, please lead the way to some good bantz

>>52208956

I cannot believe this really happened.

Who would want to play games like this?

>>52245926
Most of /pol/ secretly.

>>52245926
Honestly the only time I've played WW games which didn't suck...was with a GM who only like the big lines of the games and is willing to burn down 90% of the setting and do its own thing with it.

Bottom line: don't play WW games with fanboys. Play it with people who aren't fans.

>>52245951
>implying they don't overtly want to play a Hunter game where they take down the nonbinarygenderotherkinshenanigans.

>>52246056
Well let's be real: the Beasts are only good as antagonist in a Hunter game.

>>52246056

Honestly I'm fairly /pol/ and Hunter the Vigil is the only good thing to come out of nWoD. Who doesn't wanna Deus Vult some vampires?

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>>52207800
Here's you (you) you fuckface. I hope Caine decapitates you and absorbs all the blood from your shitty body through his godly Cainite cock as he fucks your neckholes.

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>>52245849
Most reasonable post on today's internets. Stay moderate, my friend - it's the one and only road to sanity.

>>52246452
I'm only a 'moderate' in that I'm not really on the big bandwagons of the extreme right, such as gassing everyone and everything, being a christian fundie or a neo pagan viking god worshiper. Many of my stances haven't changed all that much from, say, five years ago but the political spectrum has shifted so far left that I'd be considered right-wing by today's standards and a liberal 20 years ago.

A lot of 'moderate' are really just fence-sitting pretentious people who refuse to take a hard line stance on anything and feel smug by calling both sides stupid simply for the sake of calling anyone who disagree with them stupid which, amusingly, make them no different than a hardcore /pol/lack calling anyone who disagree with them a cuck and an SJW calling anyone who disagree with them a nazi.

When in the Christ-punching shit is Onyx Path going to fet their shits together and post a second Exalted book?

>>52246691
>A lot of 'moderate' are really just fence-sitting pretentious people who refuse to take a hard line stance on anything and feel smug by calling both sides stupid simply for the sake of calling anyone who disagree with them stupid which, amusingly, make them no different than a hardcore /pol/lack calling anyone who disagree with them a cuck and an SJW calling anyone who disagree with them a nazi.
There. There it is. The explanation. Right there. Anon nailed it. The source - THE SOURCE - of all argument and dispute: de-humanizing the other side and refusing to listen with an open mind. It's gotten so bad on the right and left that now even the moderates in the middle have opted to 'go radical' as it were and plug their ears, too. So now we have right wing idiots, left wing idiots, and moderate idiots ALL refusing to listen to each other because everybody but me is wrong wrong wrong. le sigh.
And the ironies of /pol/ calling ANYBODY cuck, and of SJW's calling ANYBODY a national socialist are delightfully amusing......

>>52247016
The problem is, unfortunately, that nobody ever 'win' at anything, especially a culture war, by being nice and sensible. Sensible people are, well, sensible and often mellow, decent people who will only fight back when pushed against the edge.

It's unfortunate, but any change is always driven by the loud, often questionably sane people. Why do you think most, if not all figures of influence in anything are generally assholes? it's because assholes are the strong personalities which, unfortunately, get shit done. Both good and bad things.

>>52247099
Also:
>The source - THE SOURCE - of all argument and dispute: de-humanizing the other side and refusing to listen with an open mind.
But then what happen when one side is full of shit and has gone so far away from sanity that they are orbiting pluto and themselves refusing to hear anyone but them?

What, you think opponents of the SJW didn't try to talk and reason with them? They've been trying for years by now but these people have locked themselves in their mental prison and themselves refuse to see any other argument. That's how you end up with shitstain which plague our current culture. People like the Young Turks, Lena Dunham and the entirety of hollywood. They are utterly convince they live in a white supremacist ultra capitalist patriarchy where we still practice slavery and anyone not a white man is an evil oppressor. They unironically they are oppressed in their fancy bay area apartment eating fancy sushi when they make more money than some poor-ass middle age white dude in a town where everything has gone out of business due to jobs going to other countries. They have the near entirety of the mainstream media parroting their bullshit yet they still think they are the underdog.

How do you even reason with that? People tried simply talking to them but these people will not listen. They block anyone and anything which disagree with them and then when they are out of people disagreeing with them they begin cannibalizing themselves (see: gay men are misogynist articles).

Sure you could say 'well the other side can still treat them like people' and I'd be inclined to agree but eventually you just...give up, you know? They have decided to bran a huge chunk of the human race as pure evil worthy of extermination all the while pontificating that their enemies are totalitarian extremist nazi.

>>52246916

Soon™

>>52208956
>we have retarded pronouns
>but that shouldn't matter because people get used to horrible monsters and people dying and shit wah wah wah

When monsters are trying to kill you on a daily basis, you start getting a nose for bullshit.

>>52246200
> Not awakening on the path of pepe

0/10 would not troll big government seers with.

I remember really enjoying a lot of the Dark Ages material. They did a fairly nice job setting a decent tone in some of their books like Ashen Thief or Dark Ages: Inquisitor. Seriously, who doesn't want to hunt down vampires and abominations and purge them with fire?

>>52226210

>one person represents pol

It fills me with joy knowing there those so brimming with asshurt they cry at every chance they get :) cry more baby lol

>>52247892
>lol
Underaged virgin detected. Go to bed, son.

>>52247292
Yes, all sides refuse to listen to each other - and that's the problem. Instead of working together, y'all just yell at each other.
Look at amerifats' election: sjw's say everyone should get along after election; but what do they do? Protest in the streets....unironically.......it's almost like all sides are COMPLETELY STUPID. It's almost like people are morons who can't think for themselves, so they need to pick a side to tell them what to think/do. It's almost like the people in power are dumbing down the population so that the masses are easier to control...........

>>52248176
I think you're oversimplifying. The left's arguments have been entertained, refuted, and dismissed. Listening to them again won't move any discussion forward. It's time to stop bickering, both with our opponents and moderates, and start taking action.

I just want to casually mention that exalted 3e, has had zero splats or source books pushed out in the year since it came out.

Someone homebrewed and entire Splat book out, and Holden has failed to push out a book about swords, and how to make them fancy.

Fucking EX3 was a scam, straight up.

>>52248032

But I'm not tired and tomorrow isn't a school day.

Plus you're not my mum, so nyah.

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>>52248450
>muh, they just won't listen to me
>muh, drumpf won and i still feel like a cuck
>muh, save me from da scary libtards
Why do you do this to yourself? Why do you not want to be listened to and engaged with reasonably?
Why do you insist on being cancer? And not even clever cancer; just transparent, pathetic cancer. Weak, anon, yer just weak.

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>>52248450
>The left's arguments have been entertained, refuted, and dismissed.
Kinda like keynesian economics, right anon? You know, the entire economic underpinning of the far-right wing? That economic theory that's supposed to encourage the flow of capital has led to the most restricted capital in all of history. Fine economic theories the far-right has, oh my yes...............

This sure is some White Wolf discussion.
>>52245238
They should have been bundled together. Really

>>52248964
Well, the point of the split is to make more money off suckers, so bundling them was never in the equation, i'd guess. And don't worry: the /pol/tard has gone for the moment. Bedtime, and all that.

>>52248950
You wot mate? The far right by and large despise Keynesianism, in favour of Hayek and the complete garbage that makes up the Austrian School.

The past 20-30 years haven't been Keynsian either in the USA, UK or Australia, rather following Friedman and the Chicago school of Supply-Side voodoo economics.

>>52249064
It would be great as a bundle, because you could use the base system for anything in the scion universe and each book as something new. Like scions themselves get a whole book for just their rules, but maybe we see rules for stranger things afterwards and it could become a more alive universe.

>>52249099
Isn't trinity going to be running off the same system?

Actually interested in this thread.

For me personally, I used to buy every book that came out. It was like an addiction really. Then one day they killed the whole thing off for V20 and my addiction broke.

Then of course they had no idea how to handle their IP in the digital age. Got left behind like the vampires they portrayed.

>>52249099
They messed it up the first time; i see no reason to think things are going to be any different now.
>>52249131
So, in your view, how could they have handled things in this 'digital age'? What would have worked, d'you think?

>>52249098
>Shitting on the Chicago school

Lets talk to Chile kid.

>>52248670
Nothing but insults here. Better luck next time.

>>52248950
Where did I claim to support Keynesian economics?

>>52249098
>keynes, hayek, friedman
They're all idiots who've merely legitimized the shitty practices of their economic masters.
>give money to the rich and it will trickle down to the poor
HA!
>muh Invisible Hand will control the markets and spread economic prosperity
HA!
It's all garbage, m8.

>>52249273
Chile's economic success is thanks to lots and lots of land and natural resources, anon, that have been sold at bargain prices to various world corporations. Git better.

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>>52249390
>Better luck next time.
....he says, responding to the bait...........
IRONY, MOTHERFUCKER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?

>>52244879
Anon... I have bad news for you.

>>52249535
....and they are uber-powerful, like right beside Cain powerful.

>>52249491
Sorry you're so insincere.

>>52248670
This is why you guys are fucked. You don't even know how to employ rhetoric anymore. Any conversation with you guys inevitably takes the form of "I'll tell you the arguments for my position and you'll tell me why you think I'm a horrible person who hates black people and thinks poor people want to starve." That's not a conversation worth having.

And you guys have only gotten worse. You flipped your shit when Bush was elected. You flipped it again when you discovered that not everyone would get on board the Obama train and then when you made a god out of the idea that there would come a tipping point where you were electorally unstoppable, you flipped it again when you woke up on November 9th, to discover that Donald Fucking Trump of all people had killed your god. Just shut the fuck up and go away.

shit pasta, cancer. This is why people don't discuss things with you. It's sad.

>>52243709

Phil's a nice guy in person, but got really bitten by the political bug. In the 90s he did a lot to clean up Mage and fix its philosophical problems, walking back enough of the postmodernism to make the game playable.

These days, he writes political screeds (including for huffpo for a while).

It matches we/op's descent from "politics enriching the game" to "the game as an excuse to push politics". Phil's not even the most egregious example.

>>52249642
>>52248670
God shut the fuck up. I want to talk about a cheesy game company from the 90's

>>52249763
Hows about that We Eat Blood And All Our Friends Are Dead, eh? Like it or not, this is White Wolf.

>>52249679
>including for huffpo for a while
You can't make this shit up.

The shitter killed the thread - at least his saturday night wasn't wasted.

>>52249813
White Wolf was a dumb company, yes, but we can talk about it being dumb without turning this into a fucking pulpit where two 20-something kids try to act like they understand political theory.

Now, on to topical matters, I want Scion 2e to drop so I can take the system and use it to make my Arthurian pantheon.

>>52249679
This seems to have happened to a lot of WW devs. I know Jesse Heinig's girlfriend and I'm indirectly privy to his facebook posts.

Motherfucker went full tumblr in the intervening years.

>>52250185
This is what happens when people don't listen to each other - autistic screeching. Get over yourselves, get over your autism, and get over the garbage you think you know, cause guess what? You might learn something new.
But of course people can't do that - gotta win at all costs, eh? Gotta believe that what you believe is absolutely true with no exceptions eva and everyone else is wrong always.
Really makes you think....

>>52250257
Idiots confuse 'facts' with 'opinions' - if I think it, it must be a fact; if they think it, it's an opinion. Most people don't make it past this very basic mistake. And, remarkably, it's correlated with intelligence: less intelligent people think they know more than they know; more intelligent people think they know less than they know. Ignorance is truly bliss.

>>52250257
People listen to power, not each other. They see peers as competitors to be dominated or ignored. That's why people flock like sheep to do whatever they're told: the human instinct to obey power.

>>52203655
The Time of Judgement, which killed all the games as an excuse to reboot all the lines with worse background. Was just a thinly veiled update, would have preferred new system leaving the fluff alone. Mage worked with proper traditions not the rubbish they replaced them with