Do you prefer your villains to be sympathetic but unsaveable

Yes, I prefer one of those.

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>>52162927
>sympathetic but unsaveable
sympathetic is godtier.

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>>52162979

>>52162979
Sympathetic but not in the
>lol you guys were actually the evil ones the whole time
>this guy was just doing evil stuff to save a bunch of puppies XD
way.

>>52162927
A noble goal pursued via heinous means.

>>52162966
WHICH ONE GODDAMMIT TELL US AAAAAAAAAAAAAGH

Variety is the spice of life. Sometimes it's nice to have a villain you can understand and try to stop without hating them, other times it's fun to have someone you can utterly despise.

A GM in a campaign I'm in has actually managed to nail both with a single character, which is kinda interesting.

>>52163809
Good man in a situation where it's him or you is god tier.

>>52163876
details?

>>52162927
Both are good.
I started re-watching JoJo recently and I remembered one of the reasons why its great- the moral ambiguity. Dio is ultimate evil and JoJo (certainly the first) is a paragon of virtue.

Grey morality can be interesting but there's something refreshing about such a straight forward good against evil struggle.

>>52164226
Or rather, lack of moral ambiguity.
Fucked that post up.

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>>52164000

Both of these crazy bitches are recurring villains of ours, but the most interesting is the one on the right, Aynfean.

Initially a friend, an elder sister of an NPC attached to our group, it became increasingly clear that she was working against us, manipulating and playing with us, both for her own amusement and to advance her agenda of causing a large scale, destructive war between our world and another one.

We learned from her sister that she's a true sadist and sociopath, completely willing to kill, exploit any vulnerability and do anything to get what she wants. We couldn't trust a word she said about anything because she would always be using us to some degree. Her own sister was terrified of her.

And then we learned more about her past, how she was once a friend and teammate to a few older NPC's we know. How she was always a sadist but managed to keep a lid on it, how she coped with those feelings by making strong connections with her friends... Even falling in love with a diplomat. One hailing from the other world we teetered on the brink of war with.

They were engaged to be married when they were attacked by forces from the other world, trying to halt the peace process. She and her friends survived. Her fiance didn't. And something broke inside her.

She abandoned her friends, ruining one of their careers in passing, and focused all her power on making the other world pay. They'd killed one of their own to try and stop there being peace, so she would bring upon them a total, destructive war that would utterly obliterate every last trace of her culture.

The loss and pain she must of felt, how much it must have hurt her to keep doing such terrible things, puts it all in perspective... But it doesn't change that she's a terrorist and a murderer who could get billions of people killed if we don't stop her.

We hate her, and yet we empathise with her. We want to stop her, and we want to save her. It's a really cool and interesting situation.

>>52164345

GM here: And yet your PC keeps damnwell trusting her every time she's manipulating the toaster.

>>52162927
I like it most when they've completely lost sight of people and the human factor. No matter how lofty the goals, people are no longer people to them and just pieces to be moved around, to be subjugated, to be swayed, to be 'saved' from themselves, 'shown the correct path', etc. They've basically wrapped themselves up in their own heads so much that others simply cease to register and have simply become obstacles or prizes.

>>52164345
>that beret
uniform autism status: TRIGGERED

>>52166421

Oh?

>>52166466
Band's at an angle. Proper uniform wear is a level band, and you get the "tilt" by pulling the fabric to one side.

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90% of the time, I tend to prefer just a straight-up evil character. No bells, no whistles, just a clearly defined evil guy who does evil things.

It's not that I can't appreciate a sympathetic villain, but I have such a high standard for story telling that I can't stand how people try to handle it. Most of the time, their "grey line" morality and philosophy is at a level you could have already solved in high school, another good portion of the time it's someone who is really stupid and self-interested in the short term, and the remaining time, it's just some dude loading a sob story off onto you when you could care less about his bitching.

At least with a generic Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain, you can more easily shut off your mind and just take it in.

Even worse is when the entire game is grey line philosophy, because what it invariably winds up becoming is an exercise in justifying EVERY action you take to the DM through the proxy of NPC conversations.

>Kill a guy
>NPC1: "Why did you feel the need to take a man's life? There is always a way to convince them to stand down, or at least remove them non-violently. Explain yourself."
>Don't kill a guy
>NPC2: "How could you let that man live? All of the evil he's committed, and all of the power he has, he's going to just be out on the streets again, committing more crimes and putting innocents in jeopardy. Your actions are far, far worse than if you had killed him! What say you to this?"

>>52162927
I guess I'd have to go with sympathetic but unsaveable.
Even characters that have previously proven themselves redeemable can go past a point of no return. I like to see a villain that's capable of doing the right thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lbh2oVGMRY

Depends on the game I'm playing.

>Episodic, mission-based with little to no over-arching plot besides the PCs fighting through things?
Outright Evil

>Long running campaign with a consistent plot with time to flesh out setting and characters?
Sympathetic but unsaveable

>>52162927
one of each, and i try to milk each one for all they've got

bonus points if they are all on the same team, constantly bickering and arguing, but still pulling together to fight the PCs

>>52162927
>3 good, 2 neutral characters, one evil character
>Evil character sets off swarm of bats at low levels
>no one has any area attack shit
>evil character moves AWAY from the party
>struggles to save herself while everyone else retreats
>realize we have splash weapons
>bear and sear the evil character with acid and alchemist fire
>heal her
>one of the others asks her why she sacrificed herself
>"I might eat people. I may be a coward and a murderer, and your priests may hate and fear me. I may torture and curse people. I might think you people are strange. But you're my tribe, and the tribe must survive, even at the cost of my own life."
>seriously consider joining the evil witch's coven

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>>52162927
sympathetic is fine but the more villains in the setting/story that are sympathetic makes it lose its edge more and more.

sometimes you just need a complete monster.

>>52164345
Outsider looking in: her motivations are hyper-overreacting to her semi-tragic backstory. I wouldn't call it hitting the nail on the head, or even close to it, personally, but it is an attempt.

What's really the difference? They can be sympathetic in their backstories, but as they are outright evil and unsaveable. And all this really relies on the PCs ever learning about the villain in more depth than the cackling dark wizard on some tower.

I guess overall I'd prefer outright evil for the average hack and slash, because sympathy is hard to force - give the villain as tragic a backstory as you want, that doesn't necessarily mean I feel sorry for him. It can end up the equivalent of regaling the party of the loving wife and daughter left behind by the bandit you just killed, who had only turned to banditry because his family was starving...You can make me respect or fear a villain a lot more easily. without making it ever feel hammy.

The only time I think it's necessary to try and make the villain sympathetic and understandable is if you want to have him ever team up with the party - against a greater foe, or as a change of heart somewhere along the line.

>>52162927
Evil villain with sympathetic second in command.

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>>52162927
I like both but for the latter I like for them to have a reason to do the things they do like pic related, not just because the writer needs a guy to fuck shit up who is inherently evil.

>>52162927
Depends on the kind of story, desu.

On an epic kind of scale, e.g. LotR, I appreciate the BBEG actually basically just channeling Satan, being the ultimate evil that must be defeated for the prosperity of the innocent yadda yadda.

But I also love stories about redemption and mercy, so I also really like villains that we can gain some personal attachment to and hope they "see the light" someday.

>>52164345
>>52167733
Seems like a good attempt.
Not perfect, though. I don't find her that symphetic to be honest.

Utterly evil BBEG with sympathetic henchmen

I just want an antagonist with a reasonable enough objective that the players may desire to stop.

Enough of this "villain" nonsense. That's an instant redflag for a campaign, same as describing someone as "evil." What is evil anyway? We have enough trouble defining good.

>>52162927
Both are excellent

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>>52168453
if cobra commander isnt evil i dont know who is

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>>52168453
Anon...are you saying that you consider villain and evil to be overused terms?

I hate to take the easy answer out, but it really depends on the setting and the story you are writing.

But giving your villain a pathos is still better writing by default.

>>52168503
"Villain" implies wrongdoing, as does "evil".
This requires us to define what wrongdoing consists of.

I do not care that a character does "wrong," until we have defined wrong. Instead of defining "wrong," we instead receive is a display of actions from the antagonist that are so irreconcilably immoral, that they become laughable. By appealing to common morality and attempting to turn the antagonist into a villain, we destroy the character. We turn him into a caricature.

I cannot take a caricature seriously. I take it as an insult. Per the GM's instructions, I have gone and created a character, written out five pages of backstory, answered a list of ten questions written by the GM, and my reward?
A caricature that I am told I must stop. Why must I stop him? Nothing in any of our character backgrounds gives us a reason to stop him. Oh, but the GM insists that he is "evil" and that he does "wrong" and will then narrate events to us that make the antagonist out to be "evil" and "wrong," except the act is blown. The caricature is incapable of doing wrong. He is not real, he does not exist. He does not even believably exist as a fantasy, because he is so poorly conceived.

Even now I am still referring to the caricature as the antagonist, but this is not so. Antagonist implies he is working against the protagonist's objective. But he is not. He is simply existing in the setting to cause trouble, because the GM has decided that we need to spend time building our character, but he is free ignore that essential task himself.

It's a joke really. Through his inattention the GM destroys his own game, because he insisted on flinging vague concepts of morality around, and mistaking moral cause for true motivation, of which he fails to provide any.

>>52164226
It's interesting you say that because Araki has actually stated he regretted making things so clear cut in Phantom Blood.

>>52168727
thanks wittgenstein, that was very enlightening. if you're such a fucking philosophical genius, how come you don't have any satisfactorily clever friends to play with?

maybe you should accept some human limitations (your DM's storytelling, or your social skills) and attempt to have a good time anyway.

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>>52168727
>cant take pure evil seriously
I, AKU, SHAPESHIFTING MASTER OF DARKNESS AM THE GREATEST THREAT

>>52168795
Hey man, I know that I don't know anything. But that's no excuse for the people around me knowing less. I've got a standing belief that the GM should be competitive for the title of best-cultured, be it through reading, movies, or even comics if he really wants.
The core thing is that he should not present me with the type of non-cohesive narrative I saw in my undergrad screenwriting classes.
If we're going to be goofy and do dumb things, cool. Tell me at the start of the game, and use a better word than "evil" to describe why we should care about stopping the antagonist. Otherwise it's a redflag that the GM wants to run a silly game, but is taking himself and his session too seriously to actually pull it off.
>>52168817
AH, BUT AKU, I WIELD THE HAMMER OF INDUSTRY. HOW FARE YOUR MACHINATIONS WHEN THE WORKING CLASS REFUSE TO CARRY THEM OUT?

>>52167733

>her motivations are hyper-overreacting to her semi-tragic backstory

GM here. Oh god yes. The girl is not following 'Proportional response' at all and really should have seen a shrink rather than going straight back to her job in a spy agency but to provide a bit more context...

These two planets have been in a cold war (With border skirmishes) for generations, so him trying to bring peace between the two was a very big deal and he'd been through hell over the idea that the two nations, if they worked at it, could be friends rather than opponents.

Hyperion, his nation, had been close to genocided by the precursor to the PCs nation and had reformed itself into a very militaristic planet with a focus on nationalism and their own survival above all else. They generally avoid contact with other nations and have sealed themselves off from basically any outside communication.

It's not just 'These people killed him, so they must die' and more 'He was the one chance this nation had to change it's course to a better future and they shot it down'. She's also very mistaken about the idea that he was the one chance/that his own nation hated him.

The PCs have also found out that, in the end, his death was pointless as far as the actual people pulling the strings. They are a pro-democracy group that have been trying to get the people of the world to rise up against the current AI government and install a human government instead as they believe that humans should rule humans, not machines. He was just collateral damage in an attempt to focus anger at the government that ended up failing in the end.

She has not taken the fact that she did all that she did and wasn't even on the radar of the real villains well.

>>52162927
Depends entirely on the mood and story I want to do. I've done both and both are good when used properly.

>>52168727
Don't confuse "I can't connect with the boring-ass conflict" with "pure evil is always shit".

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>>52169273
sometimes the puppy kicking, all-ham, super villain is the most fun

>>52162927
Lulu, sweet thing.

20 minutes.

>>52162927
If it's creatively and proportionally crafted then I don't care.
I do have a soft spot for good men doing horrific deeds in order to prevent, preferably delay, true evil, whether on a single instance or ongoing. Even better if it ultimately has no effect on its advance.
Though that would come back to the question of what is evil and what is good.

>>52162927
Yes.

If you do it right they can be outright evil AND sympathetic. More fun that way.

>>52169434
>they can be outright evil AND sympathetic
Give 6 examples.

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>>52169447

>>52169454
>le psycho clown man
>"""highly intelligent""" bimbo doctor
>sympathetic

>>52169469
the lego versions definitely are

Full evil with a complex background that the PCs typically don't unveil.

>>52169478
Alright, I give up, explain.

>>52163809
Also known as the Fable III method.

>>52162927
In theory, sympathetic. In practice, outright evil.

Almost all 'sympathetic' villains fall flat on their face. Typically, they overreact to a tragic backstory, inciting a 'oh for fuck's sake, suck it up! You're not the only one who has issues you prissy little bitch!' or a run of the mill political zealot, resulting in 'see? This is why your aims are retarded.' Given about 90% of professional writers fuck this up, I wouldn't trust a GM with this.

A pure evil villain is almost always at least functional in the story, unlike a sympathetic one who can break the entire plot. Besides, in a TTRPG, it can be very satisfying taking these purely despicable villains down.

That being said, I thin people put too much focus on the villain motivation and not enough on their actions and especially personality. Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls for example had no real motive aside from generic shits and giggles, but he was entertaining as fuck since he did all this twisted and funny shit while having the absolute time of his life.

>>52169503
>brother decided to become a tyrant
>when he could just as easily buy all the property in the land and make bank
he was just dumb

>>52169469

Honestly, if you've ever known someone in an abusive relationship, Harley can get pretty sympathetic at times.

>>52162927
I preffer to play villains of both kinds.
But when it comes to dealing with the competiotion I preffer the first type.

>>52169669
>if you've ever known someone in an abusive relationship
Define abusive.
Or more accurately, what do you consider the threshold of an abusive relationship.

>>52162927
Pure evil and fabulous, fabulously evil.
Like Nagash, Nagash from Mike Lee's trilogy sends shivers down my spine. Or Dio.

>>52169717

Someone who is being hurt either actively or passively by someone who they genuinely care about.

Harley loves Joker, Joker loves having a loyal minion. Never red the comics, but from what I can remember from TV Harley wants to change the Joker into a good guy, even though she knows he's a baddie.

>>52169447
the anti spirals come to mind (sympathetic; want to do good Outright Evil; Murdering planets)
the joker and Harley like the other anon posted (mental illness combined with genuine malice is a pretty sympathetic, but also evil, thing to me)
Griffith from Berserk is/was sympathetic for a bit there then he went hole hog and hit the event horizon
Rita from the original power rangers, sure she's a right venerable bitch, but i'm sympathetic to ones who aren't outright killed and are imprisoned, so i get the RAGE
Hisoka from HunterxHunter is a pretty evil guy, goes around killing innocents and what not, but i too have his blood knightliness so i am sympathetic to his desires (not the uhh... boys fighting makes me horny ones)
Daleks. Everything they've ever been has been HATE and they are outright evil. But they can't know anything else, and that makes me have the feels.

That being said, having sympathy for something is pretty individualistic, i like outright evil shits who are sympathetic to my sociopathic world view. So, a lot of villains qualify for me, just to different degrees.

>>52169717
this is going to go well.

>>52169484
lego jokers goal is to get batman to recognize him as his greatest nemesis, and is evil through and through, he even calls himself evil

but they do a very good job of getting the audience to empathize with him, you really feel bad for him when batman spurns him, and he really sounds like a hurt person

>>52169617
The even dumber thing is that he already owned all the property.

He had in fact transcended mere dumb.

Not only could Prince Dogfucker raise enough cash to somehow fight an evil tar monster but he also managed to renovate the kingdom, lower taxes, extend his protection to friendly nations, improve the quality of life of every citizen and still have enough left over to buy the snazziest clothes and live a life of sexual and alcoholic excess undreamed of by any monarch before or since.

The only thing he failed to do was kill Reaver despite the obnoxious little shit turning up to your castle in person not long after trying to kill you.

>>52169284
He-Man is the bad guy, he stole Skeletor's house.

>>52169829
>little boys don't make him horny
weirdo
>i like outright evil shits who are sympathetic to my sociopathic world view
Do you have two sides?
Would I think you're the nicest guy I've ever met?

>>52169965
>skeletor is an allegory to what happens when you treat homeless people like they're evil

>>52169992
>Would I think you're the nicest guy I've ever met?
That's common when talking to psychopaths, not sociopaths.

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>>52162927
I prefer my villains to be just...gone. Maybe they're an otherwise normal human that is just a little bit off, or maybe they are clearly just not all there, but it should become clear at some point that they lost whatever last bit of humanity they had, if they ever had it to begin with. Genuine psychopath type stuff, blue and orange morality is the only thing driving them forward towards their goal.

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>>52170016

>>52162927
Depends on the kind of game or the type of villain I'm going for I guess.
I don't have any "preference" beyond being entertaining, which sometimes means simplicity and sometimes does not.

>>52170038
>ruining funposting this early

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>>52170016
Useful chart

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>>52162927
Sympathetic but unsavable, definitely.

There's just something about a villain with goals that are sympathetic, even laudible, but whose methods cross the line several times over that makes them leagues more intimidating than the usual, mustache-twirling villain.

Your players/audience completely understand why the villain is doing what they are doing, and realize that this person will stop at nothing to achieve their goals.

At this point I'm really longing for some outright black and white evil, because I don't know if it's just coincidence in what media I consume but it seems like fucking everything these days is just anti-heros fighting symphatic villains in a morally grey world, and it's never written well. Grey morals are great and all, but if you paint a whole canvas grey, you haven't made engaging art, you've made an oversized paint swatch.

I remember reading somewhere that the west is obsessed with grey morality because abrahamic religions are very black and white, whereas the Japanese are more interested in black and white morality because budhist and shinto beliefs are less about good vs evil. Sadly I don't know anything more than surface level stuff about either religion so I can't say how accurate that is.

>>52170413
a good guys and bad guys narrative is often the most timeless and striking, resonating deep within the audience regardless of time and space.

its always nice to have good and bad on both sides, but a clear villain to oppose, and a clear hero (the players) is probably the most simplest way to get everyone engaged in the story

>>52170098
Friendly reminder that psychopaths are worse than sociopaths.

>>52162927
Both. Double points if we're both pretty much sympathetic monsters, and a lot of people don't agree on which one of us, if either, is the 'good guy' in the situation.

>>52162927
My preference, since I used it in my novel I'm trying to get published, is a conflict between Safe but Untrusting and Good but Self Serving

That is, the main antagonist is honestly doing his best to save the city. It's just that it's a FAR more likely explanation that MC is lying and needs to be killed than what's actually happening, forcing MC to escape into the under belly of the city and save it himself to try and clear his name.

>>52168490
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeGTV6fvgaM

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Is he a hero or a villain?

>>52172473
illidan literally dindu nuffin

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>>52162927
Personally I like two types of villains:

1: A villain that is capable of great evil and great good. For examle a telepath that cures people from depression, addiction and other psychological disorders but at the same time murders a family-father and impersonates him to be loved by his fake family.

2: The roman people defined good and evil based on its use. If something worked it was good, if something didn't worked evil. In this category the need for the impossible is utterly evil for it is not practical.
A person who works for an impossible goal, like happiness for all, end of death and suffering is one of my favourite character types.

The presentation is the most important feature. Black Manta is nothing from above but I love this magnificent asshole.

I did an evil pacifist once, it was very interesting. he was a psion, and if 4chan is interested, I might tell the tale of the extremist conflict-hating monster that I created.

>>52162927
Variety is the spice of life?

>>52162927
I can't think of any examples, but I guarantee there's a lot.

I really like villains who are sympathetic not because their motives make sense, but because they are so fundamentally broken that hey can't see the world for what it is. A good man so completely ruined by mental health issues or trauma as well as manipulated by those around him that he takes the actions we'd normally associate with someone who is outright evil.

They believe themselves to be in the right not because they're so full of themselves and their ideology, but because that's the only way the world can still make sense to them.

>>52162927
Batman:AS Clayface was one of my favorites. The best part about the irredeemable villains is that they can usually be traced back to a "pure evil" source, but might surpass them as a threat in the end.

>>52172794
anon, 4chan (and especially /tg/) ALWAYS wants storytime

>>52172794
You can be a mind-raping evil bastard and still be a pacifist, assuming you don't kill anything and just force them to see it your way

>>52162979
This is the best.

>>52169008
To me this proves that context changes everything. Instead of an overreacting psychopath, she becomes just as manipulated as her pawns. I like this idea.

The average villain is there to make the heroes seem more heroic, either as a phenomenal challenge to be overcome, or a phenomenally corrupt and evil monster as a sort of anti-role model, their depravity putting the hero's righteousness into stark relief -- thereby making the readers also feel righteous by comparing themselves to the heroes they relate to and contrasting themselves with the villain the heroes fight.

The good villain is there to make the heroes seem less heroic. A good villain is one who brings out the wickedness within the heroes, and by extension, the reader, and not in a "lol ur just the same as meeeee" way. That's just trying to imitate a good villain in a very blunt, straightforward way.

>>52162927
I prefer force of nature villains.

>>52162927
I'm hopefully going live for at least sixty more years, preferably playing /tg for a majority of that time. I would like to play with both as long as the villain is well written.

>>52162927
Both deserve a place and time, and should be used in proper sequencing and moderation

>>52173744
>>52174017
Funny one of you said "mind-raping" there, because that's pretty much what this guy did. But let me establish this campaign first. Now, this was 3.5e D&D, as you could probably guess, and the party consisted as follows: A very angry dwarf barbarian (he was ALWAYS angry), a paladin (this fellow ends up hating the BBEG the most, for good reason), a ranger (least important to this story), and a psion (I think you see where I got the idea for this campaig, this fellow presenting me a psion). Now, I had the party start in a wagon, heading towards a small town. (I took this time to have them talk, and explain their going to this town. to eachother.) They enter the town, and find the central area quiet and empty. Now, the dwarf is the first to get out of the wagon, notices the fountain is standing in the central point of town square rather lonesome, and bellows at the top of his lungs. (Cont. later, I have biz to handle, be back in a few hours.)

>>52174438
>(Cont. later, I have biz to handle, be back in a few hours.)
FUCK
YOU

DON'T STOP THIS NOW

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The ones that do evil stuff using a noble and reasonable goal to justify themselves. But they actually have terribly ego issues and/or they actually like to hurt people.

Villains that are right at everything

>>52170098
This is the reverse from how I always understood it.
I have a book on my shelf "confessions of a sociopath", the author is basically the left personality.

>>52162927
I prefer villains with an alien moral system, or those driven by desperate emotion.
>Revenge
>Pride
>The sake of a lost loved one
>Hate
>Searching desperately for a purpose in life
Failing that, one of my favorite kinds of villains is the villain who does everything he does because he can, he wants to, and he doesn't care who he hurts in the process of achieving his goals.

>>52174776
So, basically, Mary Sues "cleverly" disguised as villains.

>>52168337
Yup this is the best way to do it.

>>52172736
Holly shit, Black Manta is fucking hilarious.

>>52168337
>>52175488
I'm getting Digimon Emperor and Wormmon vibes from this.

I just love a good villain period; their nature and movivations are the flavouring to the meat. Palpatine (pure evil) is as interesting as Darth Vader (sympathetic).

Also, I think not liking a villain due to him "not being realistic" or some shit is stupid in media that are otherwise blatantly not Real Life(tm). People who think that way should stick to non-speculative fiction stuff. I'd recommend John Steinbeck for starters if an Amerifag.

>>52172736
>>52175616
His assholishness is absolutely glorious, yes.

>>52175638
Maybe, I never watched Digimon so I have no idea. I just like my final bosses to be evil and to allow the players to have no sympathy for killing them, but still have a character on the opposite side of the conflict that they can sympathize with who can hep them understand why the villain is doing what he's doing. I usually shy away from a redemption arc unless the players want one. The second in command is there to make the players see how a normal person could get swept into this, or how the villain might have some right ideas. The villain is there to be evil and die, the second in command is there to humanize the enemy and die tragically, or be saved and then probably die tragically at the hands of the villain.

>>52175788
Ah, so very Digimon Emperor and Wormmon.

>>52175788
The reverse is also pretty fun, when the BBEG is relatable but his second-in-command is a monster. Maybe the BBEG was corrupted by their underling, or maybe the underling pushed things farther than the BBEG would have on their own; bonus points if it turns out the underling did this on purpose as part of a long game and/or pulls a Starscream. And those are just 2 very basic things you can do with that setup.

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>>52175616
>>52175716
He is Hatred Incarnate.

>>52176585
Wow. Murdering your archnemesis's family is one thing. Murdering complete strangers that barely have anything to do with him just because hearing about him pisses you off is on another level entirely.

I prefer my villains to have a coherent world view and mission statment that challenges those of the heros in meaningful and persuasive ways and which very well may be correct.

>>52162927

Mos PC are flat as bricks, so the real character comes from the villain.

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>>52176839
I dislike you.

>Using villains.

Do you think we came here to save the world? We are here for coin and cleavage.

>>52175935
I've never really been a fan of the second-in-command being the true villain all along, but that's just personal taste. It's fun when it's done well but I dislike having the primary villain being manipulated by his underlings/someone weaker than him. If there's a bad guy behind him that's actually pulling the strings I like them to be even more powerful and threatening. Not that it has to come out left field or anything I just like the real threat to be what feels like a bigger threat.

It's like if it turned out that Vader wasn't the real threat but was manipulated by Tarkin to be evil, not Palpatine.

>>52176964
Yeah and those asshole Puritans are stopping us from getting at least half of that, so they're the bad guys we should be really fighting.

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>mfw you make a villain who might be better than the heroes

True godtier GMing.

>>52177040
No it isn't. Lolsorandumb villains are better than the stupid 'Why are you stopping me from saving everyone by killing them?!' villains.

>>52177040
No it's not. I can make an antagonist whose better than the heroes pretty easily but that doesn't make me a godteir GM. It means I'm a guy who either:
a.) wants to pull a "He was good all along, haha you guys ruined everything, get it cause you were the villains! Haha I'm so deep and cleaver!!!"
b.) Wow we learned something about ourselves and perhaps we need to reconsider our lives and outlooks. Maybe there is a better way to do things, better than him or our former selves.
Or c.) I made a party of Paladins that literally steal quests from you and then donate all the rewards to charities. They are stealing your gold and glory from you but are just objectively better people so you can't do anything about it.

And choice b never happens, because most parties start off in a direction and then stay in that direction. They might grow and change but they rarely do huge shifts. If the start good they tend to stay good, that good might change but they tend to stay good and same with evil parties. To pull off option b you need a party in a position of power, that are moral neutral tending evil or aggressively pragmatic so that their foil can show them how to grow. As >>52177092 said most GMs go with option A. A godteir GM can make a villain better than the heroes and make it work because he's a godteir GM. Making a villain whose better than the heroes doesn't make a GM godteir, his skill does.

>>52176585
Why is he so angry?

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>>52176585
Gonna post some Black Manta

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>>52177667

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>>52177642
No one really knows.
Aquaman killed his father? Was raped by dolphins and Aquaman didn't helped? Is he just autistic? Was he a guy who hoped he would found his own kingdom under the sea but had to discover it was already populated?

>>52176585
>>52177667
>>52177684
Thank you, I've found my new favorite super villain.

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>>52177642
Another possibility.

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>>52177743

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>>52177791

Is this becoming a Black Manta thread now? Because I am very okay with that.

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>>52177791

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>>52177901
Yes.
>>52177913
Some backup knowledge: NEMO is a secret organization that is at the grip at world domination but then they recruit Black Manta and kills their leader and funnels all their resources at killing Aquaman

I want to make a character who's themed around Fabricate, like a super slow motion version of an Alchemist from FMA.

Suggestions on the best way to go about doing that?

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>>52177963

>>52177963
I love this man. He's everything I want and more.

>>52177967
Forgot-
5e, likely using PC class levels as a way to make it "balanced".

Things like Helmed Horrors, gear-filled Golems, and other automatons being their main thing.

I've got a design for them and a bunch of minions but don't actually have a set goal or personality for them as an antagonist.

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>>52177995

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>>52178079

>>52178032
>>52178079
you fucked up

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>>52178101

>>52162927
Morally grey, but usually outwardly antagonistic from the start. Unless its wod and everyone is a scumbag.

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>>52178126

>>52162927
Both, usually using one to contrast the other.

Order of the Stick does this well. Redcloak is a goblin High Priest, just trying to make a place in the world for his people, who he sees as being heavily discriminated against (he's right, the Gods actually use his people as cheap XP for their worshipers). Motherfucker has to die for all he's done and all he's planning to do, but the ideal ending would be one where his people survive and thrive after he dies.

But Xykon? As hilariously entertaining as he can be at times, he likes to remind other characters (and the audience) that's he's a complete and utter monster. There's nothing funny about how he ruthlessly strongarms his minions to do terrible things. He specifically uses Redcloak's guilt over murdering his little brother and his nieces and nephews to keep him in line, and casually traps the souls of his victims. Not for fun, either. Just to fuck with them.

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>>52177818
A good reaction image

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>>52178161

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Something I'd like to see more of in stories is when a villain actually accomplishes their goal in the end, like pic related

I prefer my villains to be competent. Straight evil, tragic backstory, either works as long as the villain actually uses their brain.

>>52178282

my favorite cartoon villains were probably the ones in wakfu (and the new dofus movie from last year) where, really, they DID attain the goal they wanted, but not in the capacity they wanted, which was their downfall.

julith bringing her husband back from the dead only for him to beg her to stop herself, nox finally reversing time only for it to be nowhere near enough time reversed, things like that.

it brings a good mix of almost-sympathy for their causes, and enjoying watching their amoral attitudes bring karmic backlash on them.

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>>52178214

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I like to see ones that you can't help but to enjoy and are in most ways actually harmless.

>>52176862

Sorry, I guess. Any particular reason?

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>>52168817
Better version

>>52176585
>tfw never saved the [AUTISTIC SCREECHING] edit

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>>52178662
Checks out

>>52178925
well Nicholas Cage might as well be a supervillan

Y'know, I kind of felt sorry for Black Manta when I watched Young Justice, because he just seemed like a concerned father, and one of the more sympathetic villains, but jesus christ.

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>>52178919
for you

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>>52178456

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>>52179172

Why the fuck is this pure, unbridled force of rage and hatred not more widely known?

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>>52179195

>>52163809
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES7dzIXMCrs

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>>52179281

>>52179221
Same reason everybody thinks Aquaman is the most useless hero

Nobody actually reads comics

Dis nigga be crazy

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>>52179308
>>52179139

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>>52179369

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>>52179389

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>>52179405

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>>52179434
I think he could be great friend with Barracuda

>>52170098
>>52170680
>>52174854

Modern psychology doesn't even use these terms anymore. Any distinction anyone makes is arbitrary, since both terms just come from a lack of understanding for real mental conditions.

>>52163809
Essentially the villain is a bad guy, the world is better off with him dead, but he has reasons for his actions and his actions are understandable if not something one endorses.

/tg/, I want to thank you for introducing me to Black Manta. I don't read comics and so my knowledge on them is lacking, but after reading this thread I can safely say, without any doubt in my mind, that Black Manta is my favourite character from any form of fiction. Ever.

I like when there's a hierarchy of villains that usually answer to a BBEG who is just infallibly evil, but the structure of which consists of people who are both outright evil, the sympathetically unsaveable, those who might be salvaged and just plain antiheroes. It gives the concept that with the right push, one could be turned toward the path of good; but it also reflects just the opposite. Sometimes it gives the added purpose to defeating the BBEG, thinking that those they lead will just turn back, like vampires. Maybe some will, maybe some will seek to fill the position themselves, and that gives context for the unending conflict between good and evil.

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>>52179369
>Cured the autism
what

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>>52179172

>>52162927
Apparently sympathetic, but actually just outright evil

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>>52175935
Pic related?
>Doesn't actually want to take over the world, just a shut-in nerd who's forced into a leadership position.
>His defacto second-in-command doesn't into sarcasm and thinks he's being serious when he jokes about thinking it would be fun to take over the world.
>In now pretty much forced to in order to save face in front of his servants.
>All he really wanted to do was try and find out if his friends somehow managed to end up there was well.
>His servants think he is a genius, but, in reality, he's just a master bullshitter and good at convincing his servants that he is while also convincing them to reveal details of plans they think he already has figured out in a way that doesn't tip them off to the fact that he isn't the genius they think he is. Frequently pulls the "Just as planned!" move.

>>52180023
>Aquaman: The Savior of 4chan

>>52179369
>mermaid man

No one spotted this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CqfTaLYwMs

>>52179330
Is Aquaman not the most useless hero?

>>52180303
That's nothing
>Accidentally vasalized an entire empire

>>52180536
He owns 70% of the planet, and most of the living creatures in it.

That automatically makes him pretty useful.

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>>52180536
>>52180605
Also this.

>>52164345
was going to write my own response here but
>>52167733
worded pretty much my exact thoughts

>>52180605
>loses to an autistic nigger in fancy armor

>>52180697

That's reductive, manta is spite incarnate he's captain ahab if he was bitten by a radioactive count of monte cristo and then fell into a vat of haterade.

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>>52180580
What's even more hilarious, is that in his competent incompetence, he's probably most people's best option when it comes to their options in potential lords.

Hell, he tossed a girl he saved a pair of horns that summons a handful of goblins to protect herself with if more of those Slane Theocracy assholes come after her. She ends up becoming the de facto leader of her village and the general of a goblin army.

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>>52162927
I prefer a mix. Then again I prefer to have more than one big bad in again campaign (usually either because the bad guy is part of something bigger or its just a new adventure).
I usually prefer to have whoever ends up being the true big bad to be someone whose goals you can understand if not agree with.

Kitten stroking evil is always fun to do now and then but it's gets old imo if the party fights nothing but cartoonishly evil maniacs.

Though personally the misguided loyalist is my personal favorite.

Who cares as long as they are entertaining. Charisma goes a long way.

>>52181862
Pretty much this.

>>52164345
>>52164455
Do you guys play online? Or in person?

>>52167733
"Hitting the nail on the head"?
To me, that's what makes her an interesting villain.
There's no such thing as "hitting the nail on the head" here, there's not a way you can make the clash between her actions and motivation "wrong". It's part of her character - she is a raging sadistic sociopath, so she goes for disproportionate retribution and mass retaliation rather than a more calculated, logical response.

>>52162927
I think it's important to have a mix. If you have too many who are outright evil, they just become boss fights. If you have too many of the former, eventually the players just run out of emotion to invest in them and they just become boss fights. If there isn't the potential for both in the game, it creates very straightforward situations.

>>52162927
I had a friend (who is now in an asylum) who once told me, in all seriousness, that he wished he could be a monster because he fucking loved to see people terrified.

That's since made me a believer in capital e Evil. Outright evil definitely has its place in stories.

>>52167258
>little to no over-arching plot besides the PCs fighting through things
What is the appeal of this sort of shit.
Combat is the most boring part of any RPG.

>>52167520
Pretty much this. I dislike how people think in order to make a villain "complicated" he has to have a soft side or a freudian excuse. You can make an irredeemably evil character be compelling as hell.

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I like the ones who did nothing wrong, but we're supposed to act like they did.

Depends on the context and the execution, straight up evil villains can be hella fun without the moral conundrum of the gray morality areas, and fleshed out gray villains can end up being a snoozefest if, for example, they imply that we're the villains despite having nothing to substantiate those claims

Also helps to know when either works, something like a bandit raider boss can just be in it for the money without a gang life sob story behind him and itd work just fine

>>52167357
This should've just been shortened to "You're my tribe, and the tribe must survive"

The rest is too in your face. Some small amount of subtlety is important

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Everything has it's place

>>52174702
>How come my name's on this?

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>>52180580
>1000 years Reich

>>52162927

I prefer them to be reasonable. None of my villains are villains just because they enjoy being dicks. They're villains because they've found something that works, but which crosses purposes with the party. Like the mob boss who is a terror but would be crushed the moment he eased off. I try to impress upon my players the circumstances whenever they dig for information.

I've had a player complain about it once. He pointed out that it's a lot harder to play a good adventurer when there's no clear evil to square off against. The morality gets mushy, and tempts the party into fighting at their level rather than rising above.

>>52162927
Enlightened_mexican_taco_girl.webm

>>52179139
My personal take on Black Manta is that he is a man who is trying to found his own kingdom. He is a man like Nader Shah, Babak Khorramdin or Rabih Az-Zubayr; a crime boss turned warlord.

The similarieties wth Captain Nemo is no coincidence, he has his own empire under the sea, Black Manta has acess to resources no one else has.
Like Nemo he recruits his men from the disgraced. He teaches them discipline and focus. He can actually be a good father to Aqualad because he sees him as his heir.

His hatred to Aquaman could come from sheer spite, that his dream cannot be realised because there is already a kingdom under the sea.