>five pound battleaxe hits you in the ribcage shattering six

>>52113115
This is why you wait until after the damage roll to describe the hit.

>>52113115
>>five pound battleaxe
It's probably made of Styrofoam.

>>52113115
Because five HP is enough to kill a normal human, in D&D? You've just got a distorted view of it because as a PC you're not a normal human.

>>52113139
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe
>"Axes designed for warfare ranged in weight from just over 0.5 kg to 3 kg ( 1 to 6 pounds), and in length from just over 30 cm to upwards of 1.5 m (1 to 5 feet)"

Because realism usually isn't fun

Also this
>>52113132

>>52113165
>PCs aren't normal humans
Oh yeah man swinging a sword and getting a minor bonus to hit is INSANE

>>52113283
normal people would get a +1 bonus to damage, +2 maybe, at MOST and that's including feats.

>>52113396
>swordfighters aren't normal people

>>52113406
Swordfighters are just as much massive nerds as the rest of us. They just happen to be sword nerds instead of /tg/ nerds.

>>52113115
Real fights are boring.

>>52113139
>haha all weapons weigh 50 lbs!

>>52113115
>Describing a killing blow
>Bitching about the damage an axe deals
>Not realizing most commoners have 4-5 HP On Average
>Not understanding that HP is essentially plot armor until you run out of it.

OP, you fucking faggot.

>>52113957
lol you're doing it wrong though

>>52113115
Could be worse
>Punch dude
>Dude is fine, 1 cm of armor stopped most damage
Ok
>Punch 1 meter metal castle gate that not even a ballista could break
>Break gate
Dealing 50 damage and ignoring DR and thoughness as a monk is fine, but makes for silly situations

>>52114118
>Not using armor as DR rules.
That's your own fault.

Because HP aren't meat points, they've never been meat points, and this stupid meme needed to die decades ago.

>>52114163
Why is my fault that the GM doesn't use those rules?

>>52114200

That's why cure wound spells restores your luck/fate/bullshit/whatever!

>>52114266
So does fast HEALING and Regeneration

>>52114266
It's a boon from the gods. It very well could be doing just that.

>>52113139
lol you don't know shit

>>52114067
HP isn't a measure of how many meatshots you can take before going down, or how much blood you can bleed before you die, it's also a measure of your stamina and endurance. Of course, it's an imperfect system, but such is life.

>>52114449
Stop lying, it was never intended to mean that until retards like you started doing damage control to make up for the fact that you don't take a penalty when you get wounded in d&d

>>52113115
Have you tried not playing D&D?

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>>52114478

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>>52114478

You're retarded. All systems have a certain layer of plot armour for Player Characters. In D&D it's health pools, in WFRP it's Fate Points and Fortune Points, etc.

>>52113406
Level 1 warriors aren't that strong
Level 5 Fighters are pushing the limits of reasonable human ability
Level 20 Fighters can run across lava for 18 straight seconds and are far beyond human ability

>>52114449
It's a mixture of both. Players start becoming superhuman at level 6 and up, especially once they start being able to survive being dunked in acid or fall from arbitrary heights (falling damage caps at 20d6)

>>52114501
And here is the post that btfo's OP.
Report and move on, folks.

>>52114501
Nice photoshop, retard

>>52114542
>>52114531
Of course, this only applies in 3.PF, whereas in every other edition of D&D that isn't shit, lava and great heights WILL kill you, outside of exigent circumstances.

>>52114563

Nice goalpost moving, mongoloid. Everyone who's played any amount of D&D in the last 300 years has read this exact justification for health pools at on point or another and knows it isn't a shoop. Fuck off and troll some other board.

>>52114585
It applies to 5E too, but only at the top levels (17~20).

>>52114612
You're correct 5e is pretty trashy.

>>52114612
In 5e they can't even lift, jump, run, etc what the lowest of the lowest olympic athletes can

>>52113115
Why the fuck are you in this hobby, on this board, or posting this thread?

>>52114588
>retard thinks that his retarded little fib is the truth because he was lied to when he started playing D&D five years ago

CHILDREN

GONNA

CHILD

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>>52114501
>Survive a 100 foot fall
>Stand right back up
>"Good thing I had luck and battle experience too help me survive that fall. The Earth almost killed me, but alas, it was only a near miss."
I liked it it better when PCs were super human, and HP represented how much physical abuse you could take before kicking the bucket.

>>52113115
Sounds like a critical hit....
HP loss doesn't automatically mean injury, superficial damage is what HP should represent.

>>52114683
That is actually what HP are if you aren't a 12 year old memer

>>52113406
I mean, they aren't

>>52114711
They're what, an athlete at best? Peasant with a metal stick at worst?

>>52114638
They can match the world record in high jumps, actually. Anyone with a STR of 20 can.
Level 20 Barbarians will typically end up with a STR of 24 which means they can go 10 feet straight up, smashing that record by 25%.

>>52114775
That's the long jump, champ. High jump only goes up 8 feet and a quarter inch. Read my posts before replying.

>>52113115
>1d8+4
>ave:8.5 damage
enough to kill or maim the average guard or commoner in a single stroke
>minumum 5 damage
even a bad roll is enough to roll on system shock on the average person
>maximum 12 damage
that is enough to the damage described by the OP to most people

>>52114703
>critical hits
>anything other than an automatic hit
Smells like cancer to me.

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>>52114449
What if we made a system where HP literally was meat points and as you leveled up you literally got jacked with more meat and blood in your body?

>>52114741
>>52114775
So once again, martials are weaker than IRL athletes and mages can do anything because "lulz magic xD"

Why is 5e considered good again? Is it because 3.PF was so shit by comparison?

>>52114814
Sounds like something for hyper muscle furry fetishists. Please no.

>>52114816
Casters can't "do anything" in 5E until Wish comes along, and Wish is a crapshoot that can cripple the caster for days or only cast once in their lifetime if they're unlucky. They've been drawn back a lot.

>>52114816

5e is designed to be so bland and barely present that you can just project your preferred idea of what D&D 'should' be onto it and it'll work.

If you actually get into the nitty gritty of the mechanics it's bland and mediocre, but the core audience they were aiming for are people who don't bother to do that, which seems to be the majority.

And I can't even call it bad design. For what they want to do with it, it works bizarrely well.

>>52114806
On the contrary, critical hits are automatic hits. I never said otherwise. But not every swing of the ol' battleaxe is going to result in a debilitating gutshot, unless you want your campaign filled with a bunch of prancing, ninny, dex-builds.

>>52114531
>Fighter
I braved lava for 18 whole seconds
>Mage
I created several thousand pocket dimensions filled with lava monsters that braved the feat of walking across men in the past 18 seconds

Damn I hate mages

>>52114612
Actually, 5E falling damage is still low. 20d6 cap aside, 1d6/10ft is pretty easymode for a Fighter - I jumped off a 40ft building, took at most 24 damage, as a 6th level Fighter that's not NEGLIGIBLE but it's totally bearable (in fact, I did this multiple times, as the actions I needed to take in the two rounds it would have taken me to climb down safely were much more valuable than my own health)

>>52114638
Long jump is 20ft for peak condition, unmodified by basically anything because muh complexity - that's pretty in line for someone who's fit as hell but not specifically trained to jump long distances.

The world record deadlift easiest to find is 1100lbs, while the maximum lift weight is 600lbs. But the world record deadlift is lifting it and just holding it, unmoving, for a short period, while the maximum lift weight is not impeding your movement. Walking normally while lifting six hundred pounds is still pretty damn impressive. Goliaths and other creatures with the Large Frame or whatever can go over the world record while walking normally.

Average dash speed is pretty low, 10ft/sec is a pretty casual running speed - but again, that's actually not an all-out sprint, it's how fast you can move safely with all your gear and whatever else over not-great but not-difficult terrain, without even tiring yourself out. So it is, indeed, a pretty casual run.


I think these are pretty in line with my expectations. To match Olympians I'd expect to specialize in the task (ie, have feats specifically for jumping long distances or lifting big things).


>>52114846
This is basically the best explanation. I'm developing more and more issues with it as campaigns get more involved - definitely don't recommend reading any of the downtimes rules too closely, because they range from useless, through actively detrimental and into completely nonfunctioning.

>>52114501
As fucked as it is I think meat points are much more logically consistent when you take things like healing, the players understanding their own and each other's HP, and all the different ways you lose it. Also on a personal level I think everything that pushes the limit on HP abstraction tends come off as kind of terrible

Jump in 5e is so capped by so many things, is so stupid
>Jump is your str, and in the case you have high str is capped by your speed, yes, that means if you have high Str jump spell (x3 jump) is literally shit
I just want to jump and fight wuxia style

>>52114501

that's all well and good but it doesn't address things like surviving fall damage, and raises the question of why the "skillfull reducton of damage due to higher skill" aspect of HP is a completely separate thing from armor class.

And then just what the hell is damage reduction?

>>52114846
>5e is designed to be so bland and barely present that you can just project your preferred idea of what D&D 'should' be onto it and it'll work.
This
And that's why it's the best version since 2e.
It's funny when games like fate try to make an experience that feels as anarchic as possible when from the begining ttrpgs have been a loose set of rules that you should probably follow if you are into that kind of thing... Man ...

>>52114924
>what the hell is damage reduction?
Not something that exists in 1e,

>>52114846
>that you can just project your preferred idea of what D&D 'should' be onto it and it'll work.
It won't, it works in some, not in all.

>>52114922
So then play a monk. They're literally made for that shit.

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>>52114588
>Nice goalpost moving, mongoloid. Everyone who's played any amount of D&D in the last 300 years has read this exact justification for health pools at on point or another and knows it isn't a shoop. Fuck off and troll some other board.

Everyone who plays D&D knows that HP are meat (they aren't).

Just like they know all Paladins are servants of the gods (they're righteous warriors, but they don't get their powers from a deity like Clerics).

And all dragons have the ability to change shape (untrue of chromatic dragons and only true of some metallic dragons).

And a natural 20 on a skill check is a instant success while a 1 is a failure (only true of saving throws and attack rolls).

And Charisma is how physically attractive your character is.

D&D is such an eternal presence in nerd gaming that people just pick up stuff by osmosis and play according to rules and concepts that never actually existed.

>>52114922
I can't help but feel like you have nobody else to blame when you try to make a wuxia character in 5e DnD.

>>52115014
Monks have shitty Str, because they have to invest in Dex, Wis and Con. Therefore my jump will be shit.

>>52114612
He said it doesn't apply in non-shit D&D editions.

>>52115039
>You can do anything with 5e!
>Except you can only do old school D&D
Yeah, my fault for believing the shills and developers

>>52115047
Step of the wind, nignog.

>>52115047
The trick is to not use the hard jump rules and just make crazy Acrobatics checks to excuse wall-running and shit.

>>52115026
>D&D is such an eternal presence in nerd gaming that people just pick up stuff by osmosis and play according to rules and concepts that never actually existed.
Just like Monopoly. And also like Monopoly, doing so makes the game shittier.

>>52115066
that costs ki and doubles jump, yay, now I jump 20 ft at best and deplete my ki pool that is literally the only thing that makes me not be worthless. You think I didn't try monk? I already have to spend ki for defense almost all the time and then to stun

>>52115059
It really is. I shill pretty hard for it, but DnD is just not well suited for a lot of themes, and that should be immediately obvious to anyone who knows what they're doing.

>>52115089
>niggas thinkin' Boardwalk/Park Place means shit since it's expensive
always makes me grumble

>>52113115
Maybe this GURPS combat example is more to your liking OP

>your weapon may break if it parries anything three or more times its own weight
http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/melee/index.php?id=four

>>52115105
Most of the shit that fucked me hard was errataed by the devs (jump capped even if you have x3), so no, I couldn't have foresaw that

>>52114814
http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2014/09/psychic-gore-police.html

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>>52113493
No they're not.

>>52115461
Yes they are.

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>>52115483
You keep telling yourself that while pretending to be a poof in bathrobes.

>>52113115

because hit-points as meat points is stupid. Hit points as a measure of fatigue and plot-shield works much better, except when the system bends over backwards to make HP seem like meat points, which as we've discussed before, is stupid.

Think of it this way, one telling hit is universally enough to take most things out of the fight; whether or not that means killing depends on the system and the DM. When you are hit, instead of being out of the fight, you can spend a number of abstract player-resource POINTS to negate the HIT. The more devastating the hit, the more HIT POINTS it takes to turn into a last minute near-miss.

>>52115539
Wow, another armchair fight doctor tells us his hilariously inept viewpoint on how injuries should work in an RPG. He even decided to THROW in some CAPS because he's RETARDED.

Hey cool guy, got any more sick opinions for us?

>>52113115
Hit points are your character's ability to stave off serious damage. If the attack leaves you at positive hit points, it clearly did not significantly harm you.

>>52115579
>but muh meat points
Not every PC can be Marv. That's stupid. Yes, we all misinterpreted HP when we started playing in middle school, then we grew up.

>>52115640
>He just won't admit when he's very clearly wrong

>>52115579
Shitty bait

>>52115513
Still boring.

>Implying this isn't a clever ruse to get you to post more mma webms ;^)

>>52113115
Fuck this pasta. It's steak and boring and shows the one whining doesn't know the actual rules of the thing he's whining about.

And it seems like this is the third time I've seen it this month.

>>52115640
Every PC is Marv by product of being player characters.

Think about it, a ballista bolt deals 3d8 damage while a level 5 wizard can have up to 20 HP if they roll max on their HP roll and that's not even including CON modifiers.

>>52114816
Casters are nerfed pretty hard, and martials received a solid buff. The balance difference between them is within acceptable bounds now, unless someone does some kind of multiclassing cheese.

In fact, if a martial uses Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, they're actually miles ahead of even the casters damage-wise, unless the encounter desperately calls for huge AoE like fireball.

And 5e casters' spells don't get to scale up on their own without using a higher spell slot to cast them, so running out of spell slots and having to use lower spell slot levels sucks much worse than it used to.
5e cantrips do scale on their own, and are nice to have, but they're still a lot worse than casting proper spells most of the time. They don't see much use after level 5 or so unless you're a warlock.

TL;DR the balance is a lot better, for lots of reasons. It looks okay at first glance, but it's actually even better than that.

>>52113115
I very much understand the desire for the to-hit roll to tell you not only if you hit, but also how good of a hit you got in. However, d&d isn't built that way.

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>>52115694
Shit son what'chu want? Also my GM hated me for grappling before I even got into actual grappling, now he doesn't let me rassle things.

>>52115745
Not all classes can use Sharpshooter or GWM though, see monk (and that's why, if feats allowed, is the worse class damage wise by far)

>>52115735
Ah yes, the thing that has like a one in several hundreds chance of happening.
Yeah, THINK ABOUT that one guys.

But, yeah, no, the way HP works the ballista bolt simply didn't hit him dead on. How can we tell? He's still standing, obviously.

>>52115745

The utility gap is still massive though.

And even if they're more effective in combat, martials still lack much in the way of interesting choices to make.

>>52115796
Yeah I'm hoping for similar feats to come out for other classes. I homebrew stuff like that for my group all the time.

Just, uh, don't actually give a Monk a refluffed GWM... That's a terrible idea.

>>52115801
>Get hit by a ballista bolt because it beat my AC
>Wizard takes 19 damage out of his 20 HP
>"Eh, it just means it didn't hit you dead on hyuk :B"
Are you a retard by choice or circumstance?

>>52115816
In my group I introduced:
Chicken Kung Pao:
When making an unarmed attack you can get -5 to hit to add +10 to damage
When making an unarmed attack you can decide to deal between Piercing, Bludgeoning or Slashing damage

Works fine because there aren't magic items for unarmed attacks so what they gain with the feat they lose it with magic items that can give you up to +3 and even extra damage

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>>52115640
>Not every PC can be Marv. That's stupid. Yes, we all misinterpreted HP when we started playing in middle school, then we grew up.

Most people who grow up move on to other systems.

The people who stick with D&D are mostly looking to hold on to those childhood memories. Even when they turn 35, they want to try and maintain that feeling they had when playing D&D at their friend's house when they were in highschool.

That's why the players are sooo resistant to change. Not just when it comes to trying other games, but also within D&D itself. You can futz a bit, but everything needs to be convoluted, idiosyncratic, and retro enough that people still feel like they're flipping through the book for the first time while being able to make the same references to DMs, the great wheel, magic missile, backstabbing thieves, and Mindflayers that they made back a decade+ ago and have it still be relevant.

They don't get those warm fuzzy feelings from other games, even if they're more intuitive, easier to run, realistic/fantastic, and generally better.

They just "don't feel like D&D". That statement there has been the death knell of many a great TTRPG.

>>52115822
If you're talking total realism, hp is partial abstraction to physical wellness and partial abstraction to ability to avoid things.

In the case of the wizard, it could've ripped a good chunk off his leg, knocking him down and severely limiting mobility or missed entirely, but stunning him and allowing another aggressor to knock him down for the count.

Forge the fucking narrative, you pleb.

>>52115822

He actually read the book.

>>52115855

Monks get magic weapons on their unarmed attacks.

Not that it's overpowered either way as unarmed attacks are still weaker than weapons unless you're fist fighting other non-monks, in which case you'll still clobber whatever you're fighting.

>>52115888
>In the case of the wizard, it could've ripped a good chunk off his leg, knocking him down and severely limiting mobility or missed entirely, but stunning him and allowing another aggressor to knock him down for the count.
>Forge the fucking narrative, you pleb.

I used to narrate shit like this, but then my players kept asking why they (and enemies) weren't taking any actual penalties.

Ugh. I went to straight HP as plot armor and then some players started complaining about that.

D&D just makes people dumb.

>>52115888
>partial abstraction
So basically, it's a shitty abstraction.
>In the case of the wizard, it could've...
I'm not going to read your fanfiction when it's obvious that you're just trying to explain away shitty abstractions.
>>52115908
Listen, the book can claim that HP is any number of things but that doesn't really matter if the fluff doesn't match the mechanics.
>"Hurr, it represents everything from meat to luck to close hits, but don't question how only damage lowers it and how close hits are already represented by AC"

>>52115943
That sucks, my dude. I love the concept of everyone rolling their actions (including enemies) and then narrating it afterwards. Sometimes I can see stuff having to be stretched, but you can make much more interesting combat depictions with it.

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>>52115621
this makes a lot of sense actually. being hit with a lot of hit points means flexing to turn the maiming into a flesh wound but eventually you can't do it anymore and just actually get maimed.

>>52115921
By magic items I didn't meant the magic property alone, which I already know monks get at 6th level, I meant stuff like +1 and deals extra 1d8 damage for example some magic weapons get. I GM'd a precon game and literally everybody got something like that pretty fast (for a game advertised as scarce in the magic item department), if monk already is slighlty behind some people that only made him be even further behind

>>52115943
Maybe if you didn't try to pretend that HP was something that it's not, you wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

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>>52113115

>>52115979
>>So basically, it's a shitty abstraction.

Hi, my name is 52115979 and I have no extrapolation ability due to crippling autism. I'm only capable of dealing with life via absolutes and express my discontent with myself by trying to oversimplify people's arguments to sound witty and cool on an anonymous image board.

Also, enjoy your (You); I bet you'll tell your FLGS all about it tomorrow.

>>52115621
>>52116019
>Enemy deals more than half your HP total in damage
>"Eh, it's merely a flesh wound"
>"You flex your ass cheeks and force the arrow out through liquid shockwaves"
>"You lose most of your torso and are standing with a hole in your chest large enough to stick your hand through...take 2d6 damage."
I know what I'm doing for my joke campaign.

>>52116054
>retard fucking furious that he's wrong on the internet
>calls anyone else on the planet autistic

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>>52116054

>>52116064
the fuck are you talking about nigger

>>52115802
I agree that there's a pretty big utility gap. It's just smaller compared to older main branch (non 4e) D&Ds. I noticed this especially when I was comparing the UA Monster Hunter and the Battle Master fighter kits.

The UA monster hunter gets three skill proficiencies, detect magic as a ritual, and protection from evil and good 1/day. They can also throw their (full-fledged 4d8/short rest) superiority dice onto checks to detect hidden creatures, and to detect lies.
And they also get 3 solid BM maneuvers worth of combat stuff (but they don't get any more maneuvers, and don't get to choose.)

(I nerfed them down to one skill proficiency, and started their superiority die at d6 rather than d8, for my group. But I honestly felt like letting them keep one more skill prof.)

Let's compare that to the Battlemaster's extra utility: proficiency in one set of artisan's tools.
And all I could think was "...Okay maybe three skill proficiencies is one or two too much, but for once it looks like UA was on point with this one."

I suggest giving the PHB fighter kits free skill proficiency in either Athletics or Acrobatics (their choice) at 1st level, and possibly expertise in that skill at maybe 4th.
(Just note that monsters don't tend to have athletics, which makes grappling with expertise extremely effective.)

For combat utility, though, the DMG has a bunch of solid action/attack options you can give all martials access to.
There's also Cleave where, as long as your original hit roll can hit another enemy in range, your damage remainder gets applied to them.
There's also rules for climbing big monsters shadow of the colossus style, which is pretty sick.
Can recommend all, except the wonky-ass Mark option (terrible design and its inclusion is a tragedy)

>>52115979
Feel free to create a new system that suits your autism, anon. I'll be here waiting to read about it. In the mean time HP is fine as a measure of "I'm still not dying/dead, so i will continue fighting."

>>52116075
>autist fannytroubled about being called an autist on the internet
>acts cool and continues to use absolutes, clearly identifying himself as the aforementioned autist

Keep F5ing though

>>52116025
There's an uncommon magic item in Tyranny of Dragons that gives +1 to unarmed strikes.
The entire game is built on GM fiat, there's literally no reason the GM can't give the monk a favor from a magic tribal tattoo man that gives a bonus to AC or spell 1/day, or a cestus that has the same stats as a flamebrand sword, or a special technique that does lightning damage with the first swing and thunder with the second and a big bonus if both connect.
Not that every magic item the party happens upon should be specifically tailored to them, but a DM that showers the party with magic items and blueballs the monk is just a hack.

>>52116083
You don't understand my friend, I took an arrow to the knee but I flexed my kneecap hard enough for the arrow to get dislodged due to centrifugal force and chaos theory.

That's why I only took 10 damage out of 24 HP.

>>52116115
There's also no reason the GM can come up with a feat for the Monk either

>>52116116
I assume you think you're sounding smart but you actually sound like you're having a stroke. you're not making sense to anyone but yourself.

>>52113115

5 pound battle axe doing that kind of damage would probably actually be a critical hit. Ya know. Critical hit. As in, hitting critical points in the body.

My group has always ran it that, excluding attacks that do large percentages of the character's HP, or something like that, most attacks are 'grazing' that hurt, but are otherwise absorbed by armor.

>>52116064
I mean, I'm no doctor, but it was like one clean chunk.

>>52116164
THE RULES COMPEL YOU

Damage systems usually make me cringe

>>52116106
>Only one person ITT thinks you're retarded
K mate
>>52116094
As with many tabletop problems, this isn't an issue in most other games because either a) you don't get a lot of HP to survive many attacks, b) you take penalties that become worse the more damage you take, or c) there's a mechanical difference between getting stabbed by a knife and taking a fucking cannonball to the everything.

Hell, HP wouldn't even be an issue in D&D if it didn't take so fucking long to chew through most CR 6+ creatures.

>>52115802
>>52116092
When I DM, I also make contests on the fly based on action descriptions. (see: vaguely worded "contests in combat" blurb in PHB).

I've found a good way to do this is to allow players, after seeing their attack and damage roll, to "double or nothing" and make a skill contest (often athletics, acrobatics, or intimidation) vs. the target to get a push, grapple, or prone on them, or disadvantage on ability checks, or whatever other reasonable thing I can come up with in discussion with the player. Just not damage.
(Oh and, I allow monsters to use either a relevant skill or a saving throw. Monsters have extremely few of either so it helps make monsters feel more real and capable.)

If they fail the skill contest, the attack misses, but if successful, they get all of the effects.
Makes players able to, for example, trade low or minimum-damage rolls for (a sometimes very good) chance at CC.

Sounds like it takes something away from battle masters, but keep in mind I'd also allow similar "double downs" for BM maneuvers.

>>52116129
It makes perfect sense, you're just too stupid to understand the science of getting hit without """""actually""""" taking damage.

>>52116213
The damage can be anything that isn't long-term, and doesn't severely maim or debilitate you.
You can get plenty of minor cuts, bruises, fatigue from dodging and parrying and weaving, as long as all that's happening is you're losing hit points.

Because hit points exist to measure how long you can stay in the fight before receiving a severe debilitating wound.

So broken ribs is probably off the table, but bruised ribs is fine.

The only real problem with hit points is if you have too many of them in the game. And must games arguably do.
But that doesn't have anything to do with your original argument, which is shit because it basically is you throwing a hissy fit because you won't use the mechanics the way they're intended, so you describe a result before it is established by the damage/hp mechanics. Like a baby.

>>52116322
>The damage can be anything that isn't long-term, and doesn't severely maim or debilitate you.
So an Orc with 16 STR smashes you in the chest with a club the size of a tree trunk...isn't going to severely main/debilitate you?
>So broken ribs is probably off the table, but bruised ribs is fine.
You say that as if bruised ribs aren't going to debilitate you in some way considering that's sore pain that you're feeling anytime you breathe.
>which is shit because it basically is you throwing a hissy fit because you won't use the mechanics the way they're intended
No, I'm just pointing out how fucking retarded your shit abstraction is and how it falls apart the moment you try to apply logic to it.

Like, you got hit by a ballista...except you didn't...but you did because it beat your AC...but that was only a chunk out of your leg...which doesn't carry any real penalties.

It's like watching a child trying to get out of trouble while being caught.

>>52116440
If the orc rolls a successful hit on the attack and you go from 30 to 14 hit points, you suffer a blow that bloodies you a bit but does not injure you enough to debilitate you, and you've exhausted a lot of stamina dodging in order to turn that would-be fatal blow into a graze.
If it reduces you from 14 to 0 hp, you've just suffered a heinous injury that reduces you to unconsciousness (or at least total incapacity to act) and you may die if not healed in the next few turns.
If you fail those death saves and bleed out, guess it was a mortal wound.
If you crit succeed on that death save and regain 1 HP, perhaps it wasn't as deep as it seemed or some well of energy, zeal, or blessing awoke within you.
If you stabilize but remain unconscious, you don't die but are effectively useless for the battle.
You observe the mechanics then describe the actions.

>>52115775
A girl will never do this to you.

>>52116533
>If the orc rolls a successful hit on the attack and you go from 30 to 14 hit points, you suffer a blow that bloodies you a bit but does not injure you enough to debilitate you, and you've exhausted a lot of stamina dodging in order to turn that would-be fatal blow into a graze.
How the fuck am I dodging shit when I obviously took half my HP in damage? Bloodied implies way more than "just a bit" of damage.
>If you crit succeed on that death save and regain 1 HP, perhaps it wasn't as deep as it seemed or some well of energy, zeal, or blessing awoke within you.
Wouldn't that kind of imply that HP works like plot armor or meat points though? You don't usually wake up from catching a tree to your chest on your own without medical attention. However, heroic second winds for the sake of plot are a common occurrence in fiction.
>You observe the mechanics then describe the actions.
You say this, while ignoring the way the rules treats HP mechanically.

ITT: fighters are now commoners

>>52116606
That's exactly the point. These autistic nu-d&d losers insist ITS PLOT ARMOR ITS PLOT ARMOR when the rules clearly indicate that the attack hits you and does physical damage to you.

Your characters are just really tough. Getting stabbed doesn't put them out of a fight, just like getting shot doesn't put an action hero out of a fight.

>>52116655

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm

>Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

>the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

>>52116655
Plot armor has nothing to do with actually taking damage, it has to do with surviving situations that should've fucking killed them. Like normally, falling off a cliff is a death sentence...but the Fighter is actually important to the story so the world's like "meh, he's fine, don't worry about it."
>Getting stabbed doesn't put them out of a fight, just like getting shot doesn't put an action hero out of a fight.
Even if you don't die, getting stabbed or shot is something that can put you on your ass for a while depending on where you got hit and how bad the wound was.
>>52116698
But then what about shit like resistance or immunities, which already reduces the severity of wounds to make otherwise serious blows more manageable?

>>52116698
>SRD
>literally written by retarded autistic nu-d&d losers pushing their fucking stupid bullshit

>>52113132

Done in one.

>>52115884
>They just "don't feel like D&D". That statement there has been the death knell of many a great TTRPG.
Honestly, that was just the death knell of 4e, though I still play and run 4e all the time so, it doesn't really feel dead.>>52115884
>They don't get those warm fuzzy feelings from other games, even if they're more intuitive, easier to run, realistic/fantastic, and generally better.
Lol, now that I think about it, that may be why I love 4e, because it gave me the same warm fuzzies as the AD&D2ER that I remember from growing up in a way that diabloshit 3e never could.

>>52116655
>Getting stabbed doesn't put them out of a fight,
Mainly because they don't get stabbed properly unless they take like half their HP in a single hit.

>>52116743
Nope

>>52116746
Yep. >>52114501

>>52116743
>You get stabbed
>You aren't taken out of the fight
Pick one, seriously. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too when the system doesn't simulate degrees of success within the base rulebook.

>>52116756
>retarded photoshop
Get the fuck out

>>52116766
Have you just never read the AD&D 1e DMG?

>>52116786
Have you just never tried not to be so fucking retarded? Why do you believe numale lies?

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>>52116795
So that's a no, then?

>>52116819
>still spamming shitty photoshops
It's like you've never even seen what the book actually looks like

>>52116846
The denial is strong right here.

>>52116869
Retarded kiddo trying his best

>>52116883
I'm glad you can describe your posts.

>>52116889
>he thinks hp is plot armor
That explains why you don't mind acting like such a retard, you think you'll be protected by some magic from your own stupidity

>>52116905
You've already had this explained to you by Gygax.

>>52116721
It's straight out of the rulebook. If you're talking about this edition of D&D, them's the rules.

>>52116761
There are plenty of real life accounts of people being stabbed dozens of times and still fighting for several minutes.

You're doubling down too hard. But I guess you looked like a child from post one, so it's not making much of a difference.

>>52116846
>>52116795
Oh my god how does a person manage to be this much of a pathetic manchild.

Look it up yourself if you don't believe us you insufferable mongrel.

>>52117023

They're either a troll or terminally stupid, anon. Just ignore them, you replying and getting frustrated is exactly what they want.

>>52117023
>maybe I should reply multiple times that will show him how smart I am

>>52117069
>maybe I should reply to my own post that will definitely show him

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This thread must have caused me at least 10 psychic damage. The Int score drain better not be permanent.

It was obvious from the get-go that OP was a child.
We really shouldn't have responded at all.

>>52113115
This is the same as describing yourself as masterfully seducing the princess, rolling a 4, and wondering why you didn't get to immediately fuck the princess.
The ROLLS reflect what happens, not you.

>>52113115
>The enemy swings his battleaxe at you
5 damage
>You move out of the way but it still glances your shoulder.

12 damage
>You feel the pain bite into you as it digs deeply into your flesh.

Is the guy in this thread calling shit photoshops the same retard in the roll fudging thread?

>>52118511
I was thinking the same thing. I'm honestly going to assume it's the same guy.

>>52113957
>most commoners have 4-5 HP On Average
Isn't that just for lvl 1? So... Children?

How many hit-points does a lvl 3 commoner have?

Is genocide the only means of gaining experience?

>>52115513
This is an interesting fight. For about 3 seconds.

Also, this is about as good as it gets. An actual bit of technical skill of being just outside the oponents range (although it's probably just because he got tired). And the a three hit combo. Very nicely done.

But 99% of UFC is ugly grappling dick-punches with nero-zero skill or finesse.

Also this is one-sided as fuck. Would you pay to see this guy beat up bums on the street-corner?

>>52114200

People say this whenever the HP/damage system produces an absurd result but outside those absurd results nothing about the system ever implies this is the case or gives any kind of mechanical significance to the idea.

You say HP isn't meat points, but we're still hittting each other with swords until one of us dies.

>>52113115
You used this exact same image to make an almost identical bait thread pretty recently, anon. I don't care if that makes me autistic for recognizing the pattern, fuck off and come back with something else.

>>52118676
>lvl 3 commoner
This always seemed to be one of the more nonsensical things 3rd ed did. Why would there ever need to be levels for commoner like that instead of just set stat blocks for NPC?

>>52119065
Because everything needed levels. Gods needed levels, items almost had levels, CR is a fancy way of saying Monster Level, LEVELS were 3.x's thing.

>>52114846
>you can just project your preferred idea of what D&D 'should' be onto it and it'll work.
This only works if your idea of what D&D 'should' be is some form of AD&D from people who never understood the rules or 3.X but with simpler rules and none of the later content that made 3.X tolerable. It sure as fuck doesn't work for me.

>>52113115

Unless you rolled fairly high, that isn't even enough damage to 1HKO a modern commoner.

>>52118676

If I'm not mistaken, 5th ed. bumped up a commoner's hp to 10-12 hitpoints. So, enough that they can stand to be stabbed at least once by other classes of the equivalent level/CR without dying instantly.

>>52114200
If it isn't meat points, why do we roll damage? If it's technically a miss since there wasn't enough damage to kill the person, does that mean it takes away some of their fatigue, luck, or skill? It makes no sense at all. Do battleaxes take away more of the opponents luck/stamina/skill than shortswords?

Shit doesn't make any sense. If there is damage being done, that means a connection was made, and the only thing that can negate it is armour or toughness.

>>52116987
>There are plenty of real life accounts of people being stabbed dozens of times and still fighting for several minutes.
Okay, there are also plenty of IRL accounts of people getting stabbed and being taken out of the fight.

Getting stabbed isn't something that you can just shrug off like a stubbed toe anon, otherwise people wouldn't worry about getting stabbed in the first place.

>>52118461
>Dude who invested heavily into CHA can spill his spaghetti 5% of the time.
>Dude who can barely talk can turn into a diplomancer 5% of the time.
Tell me, what's the point of investing in anything when the die is where the bulk of your proficiency is coming from anyways?

>>52121358
>there are equal numbers of "accounts" (if you even actually have any) of people being shot and miraculously surviving

You fucking idiot, it's all about placement.

Just play a game where PCs are as easy to kill at the beginning of the game at the end of the game.

>>52119065
Probably for the same reasons why Monks had levels even though they were commoner tier themselves.
>>52119400
Commoners only have 1d8 (4) HP in 5e.

>>52115979
>Listen, the book can claim that HP is any number of things but that doesn't really matter if the fluff doesn't match the mechanics.

If you had a dollar every time D&D's fluff conflicted with its mechanics...

>>52121404
So are we to assume that anything less than a lethal blow is those rare occurrences where the enemy stabbed you in a non-vital area regardless of whether or not they're trained or naturally adept at killing people?

Like a Lion claws you in the chest, but it's okay because it "just so happened" to hit you in a place that wasn't immediately life threatening?

>>52121467
>If you had a dollar every time D&D's fluff conflicted with its mechanics...
I'd have enough money to buy a better fucking game and run that instead.

>>52113115
Oh. Shit. This is the new and even more retarded Katanas meme. Even worse, the thread is full of retards that didn't ignore it after the first time.

>>52121481
Fuck off you god damned idiot. Don't even fucking post if you can't think ever you stupid bastard retard moron

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>>52119745
>If it isn't meat points, why do we roll damage? If it's technically a miss since there wasn't enough damage to kill the person, does that mean it takes away some of their fatigue, luck, or skill? It makes no sense at all. Do battleaxes take away more of the opponents luck/stamina/skill than shortswords?

Because D&D was originally made using mechanics adapted to old historical wargames where AC was what you had to beat to penetrate a vehicle's armor, while HP was taken from the points used to represented the overall moral/remaining/figthing effectiveness of troop formations.

Plenty of d20 games have tried to introduce them as "Vitality Points" or something similar and introduced a separate system to represent physical injury, but players just haven't latched on. It was even a rule in Unearthed Arcana.

But D&D is always slow to change. Pretty much every "WTF" rule you find in D&D can be explained as, "Gygax and his buddies houseruled in a reference to one of their favorite book/show/comic character and nobody ever changed it."

>>52113132
I dunno why there are any replies after this post.

>>52113115
if it bothers you so much, use fixed damage, unchanging life points, and damage threshold

>>52121616
You're the one who said that it was all about placement, I'm just trying to figure out if every enemy in the game is just playing with kids gloves or if the PC has enough meat points to just shrug off a stab wound without taking any penalties.

>>52121635
I don't know why you don't kill yourself

>>52114729

>Athlete at best

How about you try Gilgamesh, Cú Chulainn, Heracles and so on?

>>52121687
Why are you so mad about literally nothing?

Just dont use hp at all, describe everything like OP in terms of body damage. Characters wont last too long but those games are extremely fun and combat is terrifying

>>52121896
dark heresy has 10 wounds which represent the amount of damage you can take without ill effect

all other damage makes you roll on a crit table which can lead to 1-hit kills

>>52113115
that kind of description, it'd better be a crit that rolled max damage, which would be 36 damage in 3.5 or 20 damage in 5e

>>52121617
>Gygax and his buddies houseruled in a reference to one of their favorite book/show/comic character and nobody ever changed it.

That's why the game is LOTR races set in the Hyborean age: they liked LOTR and Conan/Cthulu.

It's why we have Vancian casting and alignment: Gygax loved Jack Vance and Michael Moorcock.

The Monk and Cleric were designed as one-off homesbrew classes for specific players. The guy who played the Monk wanted to make a character based on an old 70's novel series where a US agent who is an incarnation of Vishnu and knows all the martial arts kicks ass for President Kennedy.

The Cleric was after another guy was able to talke the GM into allowing him to play a custom designed Vampire necromancer character who ended up being too powerful and terrorized the party. So another player cooked up a homebrew priest class which was actually more of a Van Helsing style Catholic undead/monster hunter, which is why priests in D&D wear armor, are pretty tough in melee, and can repel undead creatures.

So on and so forth.

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>>52114729
>can cleave the peak from a mountain with only his sword
>he actually just has a killer upper body program

I want to live in that world.

>>52115026
exactly this.

desu I'm shocked that /tg/ of all places would make such a noob mistake to construe hp as meat points and not as an abstraction of (plot armor plus survivability from skillz) like literally every game developer has explicitly made clear

>>52122765
What's the difference between meat points and plot armor?

>>52113132
/thread

>>52114924
>And then just what the hell is damage reduction?
Me grabbing your sword with my bare hands or ignoring it completely.

>>52113115
A 1d8+4 is very deadly to a lvl 1, but nothing to a lvl 20. Needless to say,a lvl 20 'human' really isn't human by that stage.

>player takes glancing blow on first round of combat, or gets poked with a needle, or somesuch
>is literally unable to fight from then on due to crippling penalties snowballing from a papercut

Frankly I'd take meat points over this. It's not even a "this is wrong" thing, just a personal gripe.

>>52114924
>it doesn't address things like surviving fall damage
FROM THE 2E PHB, FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE MASSIVE AUTISTS WHO THINK YOU CAN'T, WITH MASSIVE LUCK, SURVIVE A MASSIVE FALL
> People have actually fallen from great heights and survived, albeit very rarely. The current record-holder, Vesna Vulovic, survived a fall from a height of 33,330 feet in 1972, although she was severely injured. Flight-Sergeant Nicholas S. Alkemade actually fell 18,000 feet--almost 3.5 miles--without a parachute and landed uninjured!

>>52126553
Name one game where that happens and is caused by factors outside of player stupidity.

>>52126602
The keyword that you missed, Mr. Autistic, is the part that reads
>although she was severely injured.
Which means that she survived the fall, but was also likely suffering from shit like broken bones and the like and likely required months of rehab to walk again.

Compare to PC who can fall off a fucking cliff and fight on like nothing fucking happened because damage doesn't cause penalty, which means that the only HP worth worrying about is the last one.
>inb4 buh this other guy survived without getting injured
Okay, cool, you cited an exception to the rule that happened, once. With enough HP and damage dampening abilities like resistance, a PC can fall off a cliff multiple times and still fight on as if nothing happened to him.

>>52126843
Yes, she survived the fall with more than -10 HP.

She also didn't require months of rehab, she had a few broken ribs and a broken leg.

>>52127740
Broken legs require a few months to heal anon. Just saying.

>>52113139
This isn't Dark Souls, friend.

>>52113139
I would have to imagine how large a five pound styrofoam battle axe would be.

>>52113115
>five pound battleaxe hits you in the ribcage shattering six ribs and chopping straight through several important organs
>Defend against it with your bare fists
>get your arms shatterred unless you're somekind of monster with the ability to turn your arms into basically iron
>Get damaged depending on your failure to defend

Why the fuck do non-D&D systems do this fucking bullshit?!

>>52113115
Because if your attacker targeted your heart then he sacrificed a lot of his attack bonus to aim that shot.

Learn the rules, oh wait you're a bern out you never learned anything

>>52113115
Its crazy that we're arguing about the realism of a tabletop game.

>>52113115
>average human being has 6-10 HP
>1d8, every time someone is hit in combat they take 1-8 damage, either doing a little bit of their HP or straight up killing them

>>52129158
Why would you defend it using your fists when you can just as easily fucking dodge? Or better yet, use a shield or something? Or maybe even magic that turns your arms into iron or some shit to deflect the blow more easily?

Fucks sake man, you have the option to defend using basically fucking anything, it's not my fault that you're too stupid to use the tools presented to you.

>>52113139
You're a retard.

>Weapon deals damage x5 on crits
>Roll, nat20, confirm
>Roll damage 1
>Total damage 5
So I guess is not critical in the slightless?

>>52114814
You would need to be VERY careful how you do that character design wise. Because like
>>52114825
said, furries.
So it either ends with Buff Mcswole (or whatever he was called in HUGE QUEST) or with the party tanks looking like JoJo protagonist.

>>52130937
when you roll a 1, you just nick them
when you roll an 8, you chop their head clean off/ bury it deep in their chest

>>52126843
The point is there IS a recorded example of it actually happening. And you can't see it happening in a game of pretend? This is more of an issue of you being an inflexible twat than anything else really.

>>52113957
This man gets it. HP accounts for all sorts of concepts, which amounts to mitigating damage. Between a tough boxer and a tough lumberjack, the boxer would have more HP because he has more experience and skill invested in mitigating incoming threats.

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>Sneak up on a guy and slice his jugular with a dagger while he sleeps
>1d4+4 damage

>>52132001
>What is a Coup De Grace?

>>52131961

It happened to her once. It's not an ability she could consistently do assuming she had a chance to rest every time like HP.

>And you can't see it happening in a game of pretend?

I can, but the thing is, if the characters in your pretend game can redirect the blow of falling onto the earth to be nonlethal consistently and repeatedly, they are already superhuman, so what's the difference between that and just saying they have extra meat points?

>>52129223

>aiming for larger, more vital targets reduces your chance of hitting them.

Maybe stop playing shit systems

>>52132726
Something that didn't exist in the OD&D, which is why getting your throat slit in there killed you right on the spot, no HP damage no saving throws no nothing. In the game narration was the king, not game mechanics.

>>52113139

Kinetic energy is done by speed, not weight.

E=1/2MxV^2

>>52131193
Most jojo protagonists are nothing but muscle, sure but theyre not very large, at all. Except maybe Jonathan wich was indeed a giant.

>>52113132
>fpbp

OP confirmed for autistic faggot.

>>52130356
Welcome to /tg/.

>>52113115
play song of swords instead

>>52116129
>ITS A FUCKING JOKE YOU DOUCHEBAG

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>>52114501

>40-50HP
>halfway to death
>still fighting with full power

>>52113115
at level 1 that kills a wizard. any other classes and its "the axe glances off the studs in your leather and leave a deep laceration in your side"

>>52134972
No need to shout anon

>>52115461
>Real fights
>Sport designed to be viewed on television
Pick one.

>>52128581
1.6 cubic feet of styrofoam weighs 5 lbs

>>52113132

Got it in one.

>>52114240
Because you're bitching about it instead of finding or running another game that does.

>>52135068
Did you not read the fucking picture?

>>52131961
She managed to survive falling 33,000 ONCE, and not without taking a shitload of injuries that left her on her ass for months on end, presumably with several sessions of rehab going on as well to make sure that her leg muscles didn't atrophy from inactivity.

I can accept a Fighter surviving from jumping off a tall cliff but what I can't accept is the fact that the Fighter can do so MULTIPLE TIMES without even taking an injury as minor as a sprained pinkie finger or something.

I mean, if I can jump off a cliff 2-3 times without breaking a bone then why exactly should I be afraid of anything in this world? I could probably tank a nuke once I've reached a high enough CON score.

>>52142209
If you want REALISTIC INJURY EVERYTHING IS A DEATH SENTENCE HUUUUURRRRRRRRR edgelord faggotry, go play L5R or something. There's a million systems with that death spiral horseshit built in.

>>52142209
Don't play D&D
How about you play anima for high fantasy lethality?

>>52142628
>>52142906
If I'm expected to treat HP like it's a precious resource then there needs to either be a reason why losing HP is bad even if it's not a killing blow, or the amount of HP I receive needs to be lessened considerably.

OD&D was stingy as hell with HP, to the point where a CR 17 demon had like 98 HP in the earlier editions. At the same time though, combat was also deadlier, faster, and required a lot more teamwork with an emphasis on avoiding combat rather than starting it.

Compare to now where a CR 14 adult dragon in 5e has like 198 HP and its most damaging attack only deals 12d8 damage on a failed save vs. players who are around level 14-16 by this point in the game.

When you have so much HP and the damage doesn't scale properly, combat loses all meaning and it becomes a shitty pen&paper video game where the only legitimate threats that you're going to face are the requisite boss monsters who can easily deal at least half your total HP in damage every turn.

>>52142987
So, play anima and not D&D?

>minimum 5 damage
Enough to put any normie into negatives. There are no player characters in real life, nobody on irl planet Earth has more than 5 hp.

>>52142209
not one of the anons you've been talking to, but in a game where wizards can do crazy shit like open rifts between worlds and stop time i think it's acceptable for high level (so, hp-bloated) fighters to be able to survive insane falls, among other abilities like jumping tens of feet into the air and punching a giant rock into dust.

>>52143160
Actually they're, NPCs aren't player characters and lots of them have way more than 5 HPs

>>52143365
It's one thing if we're talking about a wizard opening up rifts to other planes or stopping time but it's another matter entirely when everything has so much health that the damage values just can't keep up.

In the former, that's a consequence of the mage surviving to high level and gaining access to these powerful assortments of spells. In the latter, it causes combat to lose its edge because it takes so long to kill enemies that it plays out like a FF game where both sides of combat are just mindlessly hacking away at one another until someone manages to drain the other person's HP first.

It also doesn't help that martials don't really have a whole lot of options beyond "hit" and "hit harder" and basic maneuvers that any skilled fighter should know is relegated to special abilities that you can only perform an arbitrary amount of times per day or shit that you need feats for just to be marginally good at.

>>52113132
First post, best post. Every time.

>>52113115
Considering the +4 alone would kill the average commoner it doesn't seem far off.

>>52113115
That's enough to kill off the average villager, so....