How would you kill her?

>>52101400
Play in a non-shit setting where she doesn't exist.

who the hell is that?

I would play a 15th level Rouge in the 4th edition, and use that one ability that causes the enemy to attack themself.

>>52101458
Lady of Pain. Super Speshul invincible god-killer with OH SO MYSTERIOUS agenda that keeps some interplanar city free and independent.

>>52101531
Doesn't that only have them do a basic melee attack on themself? Her punching herself would be funny, but hardly fatal.

>>52101400
That's DM-only plot business. Players should assume it's impossible unless the DM does something that implies otherwise.

If you are a DM, you'd need some kind of super mcguffin. There was some (minor, I think) deity who got a little too much of a foothold in her turf and was later found dead with a bunch of blades (resembling hers) sticking out of his corpse, so she's at least as strong as some gods and anything that can kill her could probably be used to kill actual gods.

That said, be careful. A lot of what makes her interesting comes from the mystery surrounding her. Explaining how or why she does what she does, unless you do it amazingly well, is just going to make her boring.

>>52101400
Better question, why would I want to?

>>52101620
This

>>52101620
Cause you're a bamf who ain't gonna let some blade headed bitch tell you how to live your life

>>52101848
>Cause you're a dipshit who wants to get Flayed and/or Mazed
FTFY

>>52101400
Build a bigger city right outside that absorbs Sigil as it sprawls.

>>52101400
Undo ALL of "Capital motherfucking C" Creation.

But otherwise, I wouldn't because that's retarded.

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Sigil needs more diversity.

>>52101438
This
/thread

>>52101400
Turn it into a campaign-spanning adventure and subplot with the players' decisions ultimately determining how the universe itself plays out. It's the B-plot to another conflict, a necessary obstacle en route to something greater. Sigil's guardian must fall that creation endures (or collapses, whatever).

>>52101400

I'm not triggered by a plot device that happens to look something like a person so I don't need to kill her.

>>52101947
What's more diverse that fucking everyone?

Do people hate Lady of Pain because it brings an uncomfortable dose of reality into their power fantasies?

D&D has always contained an element of power trip where your ordinary peasant level 1 hero can grow up to challenge gods with hard work and determination.

Undefeatable enemies such as Lady of Pain break that comfortable illusion by reminding players that in real life they have absolutely no chance to become as accomplished in their field as Einstein, as famous as Elvis or as rich and influential as >>52101947 .

>>52101590
sounds gay and contrived

Vecna almost did it once and didn't even get LADY'd over it, so we know it's possible.

And she actually gives a shit abkut her dabuses (dabii?), so there's probably means to do so. Firing lasers and attacking her aren't the right ways to do it though. I have a feeling she needs Sigil as a power source or some shit.

tl;dr team up with Vecna

>>52102374
People hate the Lady because in a game where you thwart the machinations of lowly scoundrels to the greatest of gods by strength and cunning, she is both infallible and invincible. No amount of might, no matter the complexity of your strategy, you will fail. She represents an undermining of the fantastic empowerment that is heroic RPGs like D&D.

>>52102374
She's just annoying. It's like making a good video game and the "last" level is unbeatable.

>>52101947
Flood Sigil with Drow refugees.

>>52102430

So it's just murderhobos crying because they can't get their murder on?

>>52102446
She's not meant to exist as a challenge, she's meant to exist to facilitate the setting.

>>52102472
That's certainly an odd conclusion to draw from my statement. As I said, in a game about surmounting challenges, she represents an area of the game that refuses to be challenged. It's incredibly vexing when portions of the game refuse to play and it is in stark opposition to the adventurous, heroic spirit that is the heart of the game.

>>52102472
Basically. She's a plot device to explain why all the Gods and Demons and shit haven't taken over Sigil so the PCs can adventure from it.

>>52102484
To personify a setting caveat was, at best, a mistake on the developer. At worst, it was intentional spite against players who challenged prior settings. While this is anecdotal, non-player characters like the Lady are present in many homebrewed settings. They are usually decried, called out for the authorial intervention that they are.

>>52101438
>Hating on planescape
>Hating on Sigil

What is it like to be born without taste?

>>52102382
Super fucking contrived.
It basically seems like they needed an excuse for why the gods didn't interfere with Sigil, so they invented something that could kill gods, and then they expanded on it untl you have the Lady.


>>52102446
She's not a level, she's not meant to be faced.

I've never understood why people get so upset about the Lady of Pain but seem to give Ao a pass.

>>52102446
Your problem is that you're thinking about it as a video game where any powerful being is just a chance for you to prove how awesome you are by killing it.

0/10 would not game with

>>52102557
I don't give Ao a pass.

>>52102531
>non-player characters like the Lady
The Lady is not a character. She might LOOK like a character, and the fact that she's called a "she" probably doesn't help, but she is not a character. She's something more like a law of the universe that just so happens to take a vaguely humanoid shape within reality.

>>52102557

It helps that Ao doesn't walk around the streets of Waterdeep; your average muck-farmer on the Sword Coast doesn't know about him. But yeah, it's the principle.

>>52102574
So, like I said, to personify this setting conceit was a mistake. Most likely. Can we agree that the concept could have been tackled in a way that does not infringe upon the premise of a heroic, mythological and literature inspired RPG?

>>52102557

Ao bothers me more than the Lady, if only because he's actually portrayed as a person.

>>52102531
>To personify a setting caveat was, at best, a mistake on the developer. At worst, it was intentional spite against players who challenged prior settings

Wrong on both accounts. TSR wanted a setting that encapsulated all settings and supported all cosmologies. Zeb Cook took that challenge and came up with Planescape. The Lady of Pain character came about during development from idle sketches of a designer that was matched to a poem that Zeb liked. They needed a way to actually have the setting make sense and to have a product identity, so they used the Lady of Pain, a totally neutral keeper of the crossroads of the planes.

>>52102647
In what way did any portion of that post discredit the claim that the personification of this setting conceit was a mistake? I say this because you only explained how it came to be.

>>52101400
>Bait a box trap with whatever squirrels like to eat.
>Smash box with hammer

>>52102593
Of course heroic, mythological and literature heroes aren't unbeatable things that face down EVERYTHING, they face down powerful enemies, but Heracles didn't fight a god, nor did Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Lancelot, and heck even if the hero IS a god there's still limits. Thor is outmatched by things.

>>52102593

I don't think the existence of the 'Bigger Fish' that the Lady represents infringes on mythological inspiration though. Even a bunch of crazy bastards like the Olympians generally recognize that they can't overcome the Fates.

>>52102672
Because it gave a unique setting identity that was both interesting and unlike anything before it, while still using so many elements that were familiar to players while introducing newer concepts.

The problem with Planescape for me is that it relied too much on our real world mythologies and gods.

>>52102698
That still does not actually confront the issue of the need to personify this concept. That's more like an opinionated description of the setting.

>>52102593
>could have been tackled in a way that does not infringe upon the premise of a heroic, mythological and literature inspired RPG?
The Lady doesn't.

>>52101438
/thread

>>52102691
>>52102695
Thor is destined to be killed by the world serpent, but he rises to the occasion and slays the beast anyway. In these stories, there is struggle even if it may end in failure for the heroes. The issue here is that there is no room for struggle: this pseudo-character exists only as a kind of justification to the setting. It is not a superior foe beyond your means, it is the author shouting you down.

My belief is that such a character was not necessary. A caveat, a rule, a conceit that fulfills similar functions is necessary, but what we have is disappointingly crude.

>>52102740
I suppose there's nothing I can say to such a bold, self-evident declaration of fact.

>>52102718
>issue of the need to personify this concept

The entirely metaphysics of D&D is around the personification of concepts, like alignment for instance.

On a note, I see a whole lot of institance that Planescape is all about the empowerment of the players to the point of defeating Powers.

Wrong. Planescape is a cynical uncaring setting, surrounding it's myriad philosophies of reality. The Powers or gods are something you will not get the best of, or fight, let alone defeat. You many never even meet one unless they want to meet you. Usually a Power meddling in your affairs is only a bad thing, because it comes with so much baggage. Planescape is rife with things that are bigger than the players, there is always something bigger than the players.

The Lady of Pain is essentially this, a power that brooks no worship, and maintains a realm of planar neutrality.

>>52102754
No, he doesn't "Rise to the ocassion to slay the beast anyway". He is destined to be killed by, and kill, the world serpent.

And we see Thor LOSE before that.
Thor, during the challenges between Jotun and Aesir, LOSES. He loses three times.
He cannot lift the world serpent, he cannot drink the ocean, and he cannot fight age.

>>52102424
I think Dabus is both singular and plural

Or at least that's how it was used in Torment

>>52102796
That's a lot of personal sentiment about Planescape and little argument. D&D has always described itself as a game where you accomplish deeds worthy of legend, or perhaps die forgotten in a tomb. Planescape is still D&D, just as much as Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Eberron.

>>52102816
Struggle is the key word that was missed.

>>52102816
I'll also point out that the wrestling match with age is a perfect comparison.

Thor LOSES to the inevitable.

The Lady of Pain is a personification of something that cannot be fought, just like Elli. But there isn't the moral lesson.

>>52102854
I think that "don't start shit, don't get hit" is a valid moral lesson.

>>52102854
That there is a wrestling match at all is a good step closer than what we have. But let me step back. I'm not here to argue about philosophy and mythology.

People wondered why others dislike the Lady of Pain. I've done my best to explain and extrapolate on it. She is a crude, useless personification of the author's desire to hold the setting together. If she were not personified, nobody would care.

>>52102836
It's still D&D, but it's a setting focused more on philosophical adventures rather than the usual dungeon crawling fantasy adventures the other settings have.

>>52101400
Find out through painstaking research where she derives her power
Seek to remove it

>>52102836
>That's a lot of personal sentiment about Planescape and little argument

Nope. From the tone of the writing of the books, to the rules themselves, Planescape is cynical and uncaring to your plight.

It's the multiverse, you are not special, there are millions like you. There are no rules to fight Powers, no manner how badass of a wizard you become, there are many more just as badass as you, some even more.

Sure, you accomplish deeds worthy of legend in Planescape, but so has everybody else. You'll most likely die trying to do such things instead, which is what happens most often.

>>52102871
I've heard loads of people say this, but like, my planescape games were still about killing a lot of dudes who had the things we wanted or were doing things we didn't like.

File: 5e3.png (1MB, 815x912px) Image search: [Google]

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Dunno who this bitch is, but--

Boolit.

>>52102870
>If she were not personified, nobody would care.

How do you maintain a totally neutral planar crossroads then, that's inherent to the setting and campaign identity?

>>52102877
Her power source is Sigil. She is omnipotent while within Sigil and destroying Sigil would likely destroy the entire multiverse along with it.

Remember that Vecna screwing with Sigil was enough to cause the multiverse to switch from 2e to 3e and he really didn't even do much damage. You can't destroy her without messing up everything else.

>>52102907
4e cosmology worked just fine with Sigil just kind of floating off in an unimportant corner, with the material plane being the true hub of the cosmos.

>>52102889
I mean sure, but now there is an extra philosophical dynamic.

You can want their shit because you philosophically believe it should be yours if they can't defend it.

The game is referred to as philosophers with clubs for a reason.

>>52102913
4e Sigil didn't belong, as the cosmology was not really a wheel, there was no center to it.

>>52102913
Planescape isnt a 4e setting.

make her a god. then her own rules don't apply to her.

>>52102907
>You can't destroy her without messing up everything else.
So lure her away from Sigil, most likely a very costly event possibly involving the creation of entire nations just to outrage her enough to come destroy them personally. Literally raising nations to sacrifice to buy a few hours of time.
Get the planescape equivalent of a thermonuclear device into the city and kaboom.

But if this could destroy reality, then its only a symbolic victory, and I hate those.

So if she draws her power from Sigil, why not change the character of the city? Control Sigil, and you may control the god.

>>52102904
Let's see, I'm gonna spend the time it takes for my post timer to reset thinking about this.

You could say that at the center of the multiverse, the power of the planes has no meaning. While certain individuals can still practice their magics, the inevitable pull from all corners (including one's home plane) prevents any one aligned force from occupying for long.

Or, on the other hand, there is no super force clamping down on the city. Who controls the crossroads changes by the hour, with the shifting influence of all worlds rising and falling from prominence constantly. With such fluctuation, it becomes impossible and fruitless for anyone to truly lay a claim on Sigil.

>>52102942

There's nothing really stopping you from starting a cult dedicated to the Lady of Pain on a few prime material planes where she can't reach you. If you can cultivate enough believers she'd presumably become a god.

>>52102941
>>52102932
Sigil existed in it, filling almost the same role. So did the Lady, and while she wasn't statted (most of the gods weren't), she was not called out as being unassailable. The other big difference is that, well the multiverse isn't a wheel. It's more like layers of creation, overlapping each other, with some going metaphysically "up" or "to the side". At the center of this is the material plane, which is why all covet it. There are many secret pathways from the other planes to the material world, and creatures from every dimension often use the world as a halfway point during their trips.

| guess the material plane was really 4e's Sigil, in that respect.

>>52102920
Not really. It was the same kinda stuff, but with more outsiders and portals. That guys a dick who eats babies. We need the Thing of Somedude in order to open the door to Thatplace so we can retrieve the Treasure of Longtimeago.

>>52102961
The problem comes in when you factor in Powers and gods. They're all unstoppable forces all laying claim to the center. It wouldn't be a city or a crossroads but more a battlefield, which while cool, defeats the purpose of a hub for players during planar adventures.

>>52102950
She doesn't leave Sigil, ever. And she doesn't care about anything that occurs outside of it.

Also you can't seize control of Sigil, the last God who tried vanished only for his corpse to reappear floating in the Astral Plane with the Lady's blades sticking out it it.

>>52102999
Sure, I bet you were all playing Indeps. Thing is you could do the same thing, but philosophically reinforce your ideals by being a Taker.

>>52103004
If they're all unstoppable it balances out then doesn't it?

>>52103004
You could easily extrapolate those guidelines out to gods and powers and whatever else have you. Their power wanes at the hub, making it impossible to control. Or they manage to make a foothold and are then yanked back to their home turf unexpectedly or worse, scattered among the planes when an unpredictable cosmic event happens.

Wow, took me 25 seconds.

>>52103029
So, basically the same shit I could do in any other game but I get to feel smarter about it?

>>52103032
Not in the slightest as there would be nothing left. Fighting a nuke with a nuke doesn't negate each other. You just drop two nukes on the same place.

>>52103033
So you gave a contrived answer to a problem because you were dissatisfied with a different contrived answer?

>>52103049
So the gods are in a MAD situation so i guess that means you get cold war god edition.

>>52103066
Hey, it took me a minute and change and I came up with an answer that's *at least* as good as the LoP. That ought to tell you something.

>>52103040
If you reduce any d&d game that much they all wind up identical. Planescape is all about its fluff.

>>52101889
Right outside Sigil? That isn't how Sigil works...

>>52103078
Not really, because with the LoP there is actually a reason as to why. You can put a face to it. Your answer is "because"

>>52103080
Fuck you, mang, I do what I want

>>52103018
>She doesn't leave Sigil, ever.
Then why do people care?

>>52102506
Basically, the Lady of Pain is pure plot, with no game, unlike the rest of DnD which tends to be about 40-70% Plot and 60-30% game.

>>52103087
Just because a person said it doesn't make it less contrived, dude. I'd argue that people would be more accepting of an environmental condition than an overlord.

>>52103071
>Cold War God

That's exactly what Planescape is once you get outside of Sigil. The Blood War is officially between the Demons and Devils but almost everybody is fighting in it via proxy while maintaining enough plausible deniability to keep it from spreading outside of the Lower Planes.

>>52103111
So why do we need "Rocks fall, party dies" in a pointy mask then?

>>52103101
>>52103087
Hell, shit I can go even further with this. I can take this bullshit answer and spin it into stuff the players can actually mess with, like magical principles and items, cool fucking environmental hazards, tricks they can pull in the hub that they can't do anywhere else. There's material here!

>>52103096
They don't, at least in-setting. It's just that irl people have a problem with an entity that can't be beaten even if she does absolutely jack shit unless you intentionally screw with her.

>>52103101
An environmental condition is boring. A blizzard by itself is just a blizzard. A blizzard caused by an evil frost wizard is much more interesting.

>>52101400
>>52101400
>>52101400
Vecna tried pretty hard and came pretty close by circumventing her rule about no gods by entering pre-godhood and becoming a god while there.

>>52103117
Why do you feel the need to poke the pointy-masked plot device when you know she can TPK your party even more efficiently than falling rocks?

>>52103134
Only if you can mess with the wizard dude.

Besides, scroll up. Boom, damn, I could make half a dozen wonderous items out of my BS concept of why Sigil is Too Neutral for Neutral. And then I could do some loopy hazards to spice up any fight that happens there. Or maybe my players could turn it against me? Who knows?

I know what's happening when the LoP is in the picture: fucking nothing.

>>52103128
>an entity that can't be beaten even if she does absolutely jack shit unless you intentionally screw with her.
That seems pretty fair actually

>>52103146
Answer the question!

>>52102424
>Vecna almost did it once

>implying that garbage fanfic-tier module ever happened

>>52101458

A painful lady who is not to be fucked with

>>52102592

The LoP doesn't either. I mean sometimes she floats over the city, unmoving as a statue, and everything that falls under her shadow dies horribly and irrevocably, but that's not the same thing.

>>52103159
It is until you want to do anything more with the setting than they want you to. Like, maybe you do want to take Sigil over for your dark gods? What then? Well nope, because they're getting involved in your own game.

>>52103151
Prove it.

You talk, but can you walk?

>>52103117
To explain why Sigil is a neutral place despite the constant political maneuvering and war going around just outside it's borders. If she didn't exist Sigil would be smoking battlefield rather than the quirky hub world it is.

>>52103179
>Like, maybe you do want to take Sigil over for your dark gods?
In that case your dark gods should tell you "Fuck no, that Lady of Pain is a scary bitch we don't want to fuck with."

>>52103183
Shit, dawg, do I got a time limit or something? Do I need to hash it into legit rules or can I just get the idea down? I'm pretty good at it, but you need time to make art.

>>52102374
People hate LoP because they're fucking autistic scum with no aesthetic sense.

>>52103200
Her design is shit. Fight me, nerd.

>>52103179
Planescape without a Neutral Sigil is no longer Planescape. It's like playing a game in Ravenloft where you kill the Dark Powers. I mean sure you can do it if the DM let's you, but you've deviated so far from the setting at that point you may as well have done a home brew instead.

>>52103197
And that's gay as shit, motherfucker. Get the fuck out of my home games, TSR! I will not fellate your super special character.

The Lady of Pain is DnD's Caine: if the Party fights it, they die.

>>52103066

That's what happens every time some smartass claims he's gonna "fix" Planescape and remove the LoP. Swapping one contrivance for another, duller one which he still claims is great because it was pulled right from his own ass.

>>52103190
Or again just go the cold war route.
No single force can take over sigil and it's to valuable as a hub to destroy so no force engages in open war.

>>52103216
Then don't fucking play Planescape. Homebrew your own setting that's Planescape but not.

>>52103210
You're supposed to do this kind of stuff in your own games. A game setting does not need to stay viable once it hits your tabletop. It just needs to read well and get you thinking. If your players can fuck it all up, that's okay!

>>52102430
She represents the fact that the setting of Planescape is to terribly put together that the only reason Sigil functions at all is because of a Living Fucking MacGuffin that makes no goddamn sense.
The actual fucking climax of one of their biggest adventures involves your PCs having to remember that nothing could ever, EVAR, kill the Lady of Pain.
That's how you fucking win.
The climax of another major adventure is you standing around with your thumb up your ass while the Lady of Pain disappears the big antagonist to a Mysterious Fate that you don't get to learn about.
She's a shit character, with a shit origin and a shit purpose, always portrayed in a shit manner.
I would call her the embodiment of the part of Planescape that got everything wrong, but you can't sum up just how much Planescape falls short of its potential with one crappy NPC.

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>>52103207
>>52103207
Step up, Senpai.

>>52103216
You seem like you have some serious mental issues.

>>52103198
You have the lifespan of this thread to hash it out.

>>52102950
There is a reason she tolerates adventurers, y'know. They can go deal with this shit without her having to leave.

>>52103221
I don't see what's wrong with the idea, man. Got some criticisms for shit-I-made-up-while-watching-gook-cartoons? Let me hear em. As long as it's not some stupid crap like "branding" or "face of the product".

>>52103232
No one here is defending the adventures, cause most are shit. We're talking the setting, and how the LoP works in it.

>>52103221
Yeah, there's theoretically nothing wrong with using the Lady; you just have to not constantly shoehorn her into stories where she doesn't need to be involved, since all that does is point out how goddamn contrived she is.
In short, be a better writer than the people who actually wrote Planescape. As much as we talk up the setting, this is not as hard as it sounds.

>>52102557
>I've never understood why people get so upset about the Lady of Pain but seem to give Ao a pass.

>>52102568
>I don't give Ao a pass.

>>52102600
>Ao bothers me more than the Lady, if only because he's actually portrayed as a person.

^^ Same

Ao is much worse than the lady of pain. Ao is a person with opinions, which makes him a character - and a character that MY character cannot defeat if our opinions disagree.

The Lady of Pain is not a person and doesn't have opinions - getting mad at the lady in Planescape makes as much sense as getting mad at gravity, she's just a facet of how things work.

>>52103250
Because you made the Outlands again, and that's dull.

>>52103222

That can only work if all the players are rational actors. They're most definitely not. There are factions that would burn Sigil to the ground just to ensure nobody else could use it.

And even supposing there weren't batshit crazy factions, how exactly would you make a city of doors that can lead literally everywhere in the multiverse (including right into your worst enemy's bedroom) something that nobody would want to seize and use to dominate everyone else?

>>52103232
Most settings could be destablized by a handful of epic-level casters. Lady of Pain's existence means that Sigil and Planescape actually justify their own continued existence better than most settings.

Also nobody bitches about Ravenloft's Dark Powers like they do about the Lady, even though they both basically form the same narrative purpose.

>>52103277
The Dark Powers are arguably worse, because they actually do things (kidnapping characters and not letting them go).

The Lady of Pain exists not to prevent the players from breaking the fundamental constraints of the setting, but to prevent the other parts of the setting from doing the same. You try to destroy or take over Sigil, you fail. That's something that you need to have in a multiverse that has Demogorgon, Orcus, Asmodeus etc in it.

On that note, the players really shouldn't ever run into a situation where the Lady would get involved. Ideally she's the sort of NPC you'd spot in the distance somewhere once every three campaigns or so.

>>52102851
>Struggle is the key word that was missed.

You can try to struggle against the Lady as well as Thor tried to struggle against Elli.

You'll get btfo and lose, like Thor did, but you can try.

>>52101400
DM fiat

>>52103264
She kinda has a personality. Hunting down people who worship her etc. makes her spiteful.

>>52103240
Aight, nigga. Number one

Pendant of the Wheel
Wondrous Item, rare (requires attunement)
This simple pendant depicts the great wheel turned inside out, with the mighty Sigil forming the outer rim. Once per day, as a bonus action, the user can tap the power of the Wheel's Hub and send 1d6+2 creatures back to their home plane as if he were using Banish with a save DC of 17. However, if he fails to Banish any creature with this effect, he is Banished himself to a random plane that he would have sent his targets to. If he is already on the native plane of these creatures, the user is instead banished to Sigil; flung back to the center by the spokes of the wheel.

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>>52101400
Complaining about the Lady of Pain is like complaining about gravity. You can't do anything about it, but neither you need to, because it's simply just there, a fundamental force of nature that just is.
>b-but we can easily defeat gravity, because we have flying shit and whatnot!
What you are talking about is circumventing gravity. Lady of Pain can also be circumvented, see Vecna's ascent to godhood in Sigil for your convenient example.
She just can't be destroyed or defeated, in combat or otherwise. That doesn't mean your PCs can't act against her agenda of keeping Sigil neutral.

>>52103335
>She just can't be destroyed.
To be more precise: Destroying her would mean destroying the multiverse.

>>52102691
>Heracles didn't fight a god
Wrong

>>52103346
The same can be said about gravity.

>>52103222

"The demons, whose explicit goal is destruction, don't light off the cold war"

yeah no

>>52103179
>It is until you want to do anything more with the setting than they want you to. Like, maybe you do want to take Sigil over for your dark gods? What then? Well nope, because they're getting involved in your own game.

How is that improved by removing her face?

If the reason no god can claim sigil is some fucking dimensional alignment that cancels out their power so they die, how is that different from "and that power has a face and a name" in the kind of games you can play?

>>52103378
If only there was an opposing force to keep them in check.
Some sort of anti-demons.
I know lets call them nomeds

>>52103391

Good job, now Sigil is a battle-torn hellhole where you can't safely hang out inbetween your planar adventures. You've turned it into a pastiche on 40k, where in the grim future of the multiverse, there is only war.

>>52103268
That's not a real criticism, you just salt.

>>52103333
Number 2

Axle of the Cosmos
Wondrous Item, Artifact (Requires Attunement)
The Axle is a four foot long spike, constructed of a shimmering, iridescent material. When one gazes upon it, the color bleeds out of one's vision until only the Axle remains, shining like the rainbow. The Axle can be used as a +2 Mace, but its true power is realized when planted into the ground as a Standard Action.
The Axle spins a microcosm of the Wheel into motion, creating a 100 foot sphere centered on the Axle and causing certain creatures that rely heavily on the plains to have their spark sputter out. Elementals, Celestials, Fiends, Undead, Aberrations, and Fey loose any Legendary Actions if they have any. Additionally, any Ability Scores they have over 20 are reduced to 20. Finally, they become drawn to the Axle, unable to leave its presence until they uproot the artifact themselves (another standard action).

This power is not without cost. The user who plants the Axle will have his creature type randomly changed to one of the above based on the table below as the planes rush through him. This change persists for one week, then fades.

1. Celestial
2. Fey
3. Elemental
4. Aberration
5. Undead
6. Fiend

>>52103405
Shit, I could have doublechecked my spellchecker but whatever. You get it.

>>52103401
Sure you can safely hang out in sigil you just gotta do it in a similarly aligned territory.
And if the next portal you need is in a enemy territory why that sound like an adventure in itself.

ITT murderhobos butthurt because not allowed to ruin a setting

>>52102531
The Lady could be a living cloud of blades and murderhobos would still be trying to destroy it just because it's there and more powerful than them

Her being a person (and she isn't much of a person) instead of a pure faceless cosmic force doesn't really change much

>>52103326

Not necessarily.

Gravity kills everybody who worships gravity while leaping from cliffs

Gravity doesn't kill you if you worship with your ass already on the ground

The Lady kills everybody who worships her while living in Sigil

The Lady doesn't kill you if you worship her with your ass firmly on the material plane

It's only "spite" if you already believe that the Lady is a person who can decide what to do and decides to kill worshipers.

>>52103417
>Sure you can safely hang out in sigil you just gotta do it in a similarly aligned territory.

>There was a setting where all the mighty beings of the vast D&D cosmology could interact, where you could witness bar fights between angels and devils, where orc murder-saints could be seen performing their sword dance in the streets
>Let's not have that

Good job breaking it hero. I can play "the other faction is dicks and have the loot" in any setting. Turning Planescape into other settings because you don't like the way they've made it unique is not good world building.

>>52103431
Yeah, sorry I kinda raided your table last tuesday bro. I mean, y'all had nachos and I couldn't resist letting all the turbodemons into the inner sanctum while I was at it. I promise I won't ruin your next game.

Number 3

Torque of Forsworn Dedication
Wondrous Item, Very Rare (requires attunement)
Only the center is pure, only Sigil stands alone, undyed and unsullied by good or evil. Even the apathy of neutrality rolls off its walls and shores, fading away like it was never there. This Torque lends its user that clarity and purity of thought. As long as the user wears the Torque he is counted as whatever alignment and creature type would be the most beneficial to him when subjected to a harmful effect. However, with this clarity comes a price. The user can no longer gain Inspiration from his background, and he is no longer proficient in his background's skills. Those precious memories and feelings no longer guide his hands and mind.

>>52103466
So in between the evil fucks and the good fucks you have some neutral fucks who let whoever the fuck in as long as they don't start shit.
One last fuck for good measure.

>>52103391
>If only there was an opposing force to keep them in check.

You seem to have trouble following conversations

>Nobody attacks because the result would be a useless war and possibly the destruction of the world
>Yo demons like war and destruction, they'd attack
>No because they couldn't win because angels would fight back

I do no see how you've solved the problem of "without the lady, the neutral ground becomes a war zone"

>>52103466
Yeah, boss, because that's totally not just fucking Mos Eisley but D&D.

>>52102907
>destroying Sigil would likely destroy the entire multiverse along with it.
Good

>Destroy Sigil
>The multiverse is destroyed
>Never play Planescape again

>>52103490
Because it's not just angels it's every other faction that opposes demons.
You have all the various factions with daggers at the each others throats in sigil except when they have to put down the occasional demon attack.

>>52103501
>>52102907
>Rip sigil out of the wheel.
>Wheel collapses
>Becomes the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos
>Nothing of value was lost.

>>52103490
The only problem I really see is the ultra death demons because their shit's all retarded. So you could just make them not retarded.

>>52103489
>So in between the evil fucks and the good fucks you have some neutral fucks who let whoever the fuck in as long as they don't start shit.
>One last fuck for good measure.

The neutral faction is also at war because the demons like starting shit.

There are literally infinite demons in the abyss and they ALL like starting shit. It is their sole purpose of being. You cannot have a place that is at peace unless it is either inaccessible to demons or there is a BTFO power to keep them from starting shit

Sigil's entire purpose is to have doors everywhere so it is not inaccessible. Therefore there must be something that prevents demons from starting shit. "Divine powers don't work" isn't good enough, demons will happily use arcane magic to ruin you. "No magic works" isn't good enough because without magic, you're still a human but a demon is seven hundred pounds of muscle, spikes and scales.

The Lady isn't the ONLY solution but it's a fine solution.

>>52103524
Wait if the demons are infinite why isn't everything everywhere that doesn't have a pointy faced chick to protect being buttfucked into oblivion by demons?

>>52103491
Sigil is supposed to be like Mos Eisley, it's intentional. It's a place where you can interact with creatures you'd usually be fighting in other D&D games.

>>52103524
Or, it's, you know, just planar creatures that get fucked.

>>52103441
If you read pages of pain you'll see several examples of her being a person. Not a law of nature.

Of course you may not accept that as canon.

In either case, she does not want people to worship her. She punishes them. She punishes people who go against her, but not regular criminals etc.

She killed the god of portals and had worship of him outlawed in the city.

>>52103541
Hey, what's up? You're still fighting them anyway. BUT IN SIGIL.

>>52103510
>occasional demon attack

There are infinite demons, they all like starting shit and your city is full of portals they can use to reach anywhere in the city.

It's not "occasional demon attack," it's an unrelenting torrent of murder every second of every hour of every day.

>>52103519
>The only problem I really see is the ultra death demons because their shit's all retarded. So you could just make them not retarded.

Yes obviously. You could alter any setting element. But if Sigil is supposed to be at the center of the D&D multiverse, then the demons need to be D&D demons.

>>52103538
Because a lot of the time demons are content starting shit with each other, and when they aren't they're also content to start shit with devils.

In other words, the Blood War.

>>52103405
>That's not a real criticism
Pack up, anon's already decided he doesn't want to engage criticism.

>>52103551
D&D demons aren't even infinite chaos swarms in every edition. They're usually too busy screwing each other over to take advantage of that whole abyss thing.

>>52103552
So again what's keeping the rest of the infinity of demons from fucking up everything?

Why do people view the Lady of Pain and the Sigil as separate entities anyway?

The Lady is just as much a part of the Sigil as the Sigil is a part of Lady of Pain. Unstoppable force and immovable object in one package.

If Lady of Pain is destroyed, Sigil is fucked, and so is the rest of the multiverse.
If Sigil is destroyed, the Lady of Pain is fucked, and so is the rest of the multiverse.

>>52103538
>Wait if the demons are infinite why isn't everything everywhere that doesn't have a pointy faced chick to protect being buttfucked into oblivion by demons?

>>52103524
>You cannot have a place that is at peace unless it is either inaccessible to demons or there is a BTFO power to keep them from starting shit

Demons don't have arbitrary access to everywhere. The problem arises only because Sigil is the city of doors connected to everywhere, including to the place that has infinite demons.

Like, here's your challenge, as a writer:

1) In a setting with infinite murder demons
2) create a metropolis with open connections to everywhere
3) That doesn't have open warfare in the streets

The Planescape author(s) decided on the Lady. She's not a bad solution just because she pisses off some autists who desperately want to kill off any powerful NPC.

>>52103564
Devils are actually really good at keeping demons in check.

>>52103538
They like fighting each other as much as they do everything else so a lot of them are involved in wars in their own plane. Also it's actually relatively difficult for them to leave the Abyss on their own, and the ones who do get out are met with the most organized and ruthless military force in the multiverse.
Even with that though they're a huge problem.

>>52103569
Who cares about the multiverse? It'll get better. That is canonically what happened in FR when they changed cosmology. The Wheel just fell apart but the cosmos continued onward.

>>52102446
That's like saying Super Mario sucks because you cannot defeat the lava.

>>52103572
>>52103573
>>52103574
So the real problem is someone thought an army with infinite numbers was a good idea.

>>52103542
>Or, it's, you know, just planar creatures that get fucked.

They'd still show up and fight because demons are fucking deficient and like to murder. "Oh no, as planar creatures we're de-powered" "Oh wait all our opposition is also planar creatures who will be depowered so we can still murder them never mind, open the gates!"

>>52103572
I like the solution that, not just demons, but no being of Pure X-Plane can really do much inside of Sigil. Mortal races from material worlds are not lessened because all the planes rest within mortals in some way. They don't get diluted.

>>52103594
Who gives a shit? Honestly, there's no reason they're not doing that every hour of the day even with LoP if you put it like that. They have no fear or rationality.

>>52101400
You don't kill her. You seduce her.

>>52103573
It helps that they're probably the best tacticians in the multiverse and don't give a shit about things like ethics in their wars. Also Demons are horribly unorganized so each one fights as an individual no matter how many there are in a fight.

It's basically Imperial Guard vs Orks only with each soldier in the Guard being as tough as a Space Marine.

>>52103546

I think it is canon, but I also think it was a mistake to write that book like that.

By that, I mean that if I play in somebody else's campaign and the Lady is a person, I wouldn't shout about it being some homebrew bullshit, but in my own games, the Lady is as described in the 2E setting material, with everything else subject to change.

>>52103604
If demons are so fucking kill crazy shouldn't the lady of pain have to just constantly deal with them?

>>52103579
It'll get better, but the ones who are living there at the time shit goes south are fucked.

Think about it as the dinosaurs and the meteor - the fact that the Earth got better and humanity took the place of the dinosaurs doesn't mean dinosaurs are happy with being extinct.

>>52103618
Mortal races and most gods were fine. Many things got stronger.

>>52103586
>So the real problem is someone thought an army with infinite numbers was a good idea.

It wasn't a problem before they later wanted to create a City of Doors.

>>52103586
They probably aren't truly "infinite" it's just that nobody has managed to explore most of the Abyss and survive so the planar cartographers just labeled it as "infinite" in the same way real life cartographers used to write "here be deagons".

Also the Abyss itself is a genius loci that is capable of generating or removing it's layers as it chooses so it may be impossible to map.

>>52103630
Why don't the doors to the abyss only open periodically, so everyone can get ready for the kamikaze demons?

>>52103624
You should understand that you're not talking about the same situation at all. The 2e-3e switch was a near-instant switch where the LoP used great magics to forcibly realign the planes into a stable configuration post-Vecna fuckery. What the other guy is talking about is catastrophic free-fall of a collapse.

>>52103634
Or "here be dragons even"

>>52103640
Cause it's The Abyss, not Mechanus.

>>52103642
Yeah, bro, really. FR. The Weave died, the Wheel died. Everything did fall apart and nobody could do anything about it except pick up the pieces after it was done. This was the 4e switch.

>>52103650
So what? It's a fictional place, it works by whatever rules we say it does.

>>52103604
>Who gives a shit? Honestly, there's no reason they're not doing that every hour of the day even with LoP if you put it like that. They have no fear or rationality.

>>52103617
>If demons are so fucking kill crazy shouldn't the lady of pain have to just constantly deal with them?

For the same reason ice demons don't swim through fire lakes when they see a target out on an island - if you die before the murder starts, you've fucked up.

They do have fear and rationality. They just have very different goal, viz: "start shit all day erry day."

Going to war with the other factions in a lady-free sigil is good because the war MIGHT kill them, but they'll be starting a lot of shit and constantly getting their murder on.

Going to war with the other factions in a lady-controlled sigil is bad because the Lady will DEFINITELY kill them and they won't get to start a lot of shit or get very many murders done before it happens.

>>52103652
Isn't that widely regarded as retarded trash?

>>52103656
Then instead of autists bitching about the Lady of Pain, we have autists bitching about a Chaotic plane having regular, orderly intervals of contact with Sigil.

>>52103665
That's mostly edition warring. Most people who actually read the book said it really opened up the setting back to real exploration and heroics. It had gotten really stale.

>>52103675
FR is at its best when it's Cold War: Wizard Edition, with adventurers mopping up small messes and being unwitting catspaws to the hugely powerful.

>>52101620
This.
/thread

Ya'all murderhobo autists.

>>52103661
Sounds like they have enough fear and rationality to understand that if the vast majority of them were to, say, effectively be reduced to Commoners upon entering Sigil, they would not try to attack because any trained mortal force could take them.

That's my off the cuff solution. They get downgraded to the point of Level 0 dudes.

>>52103683
You mean it sucks ass, bro. I legit got hard when I learned all the old powers were dead and gone.

>>52103661
If they have literally infinite numbers who cares if they don't get that many murders off per demon.
Balors can just funnel the lower demons through the portals.
If it takes a billion demon lives for every murder in sigil who gives a shit when you have infinity more.

>>52103640
>Why don't the doors to the abyss only open periodically, so everyone can get ready for the kamikaze demons?

Probably because it feels like an ass-pull.

Here's the City of Doors! Always open, always available! Many gates will take you here from all over the multiverse, and from here you can go anywhere!

Uh except this one place, for some reason the doors only open once a month.

I'm a wizard, I ain't gotta explain shit.

>We specifically hired you to expla

WIZARD

>>52101620
She's obviously evil.

>>52103661
>demons
>go to war

It's more like there would be periodic rushes of demons through the gates and then maybe small trickles of imps. They have plenty of other places to go and easier ways of getting there. And to top that, while plenty of demons love to kill, there are also just as many that enjoy making other kinds of havoc. They're not monochromatic Khornate berserkers.

You guys are seriously overselling the insanity of demons.

>>52103634
>They probably aren't truly "infinite" it's just that nobody has managed to explore most of the Abyss and survive so the planar cartographers just labeled it as "infinite" in the same way real life cartographers used to write "here be deagons".

Aren't the outer planes canonically infinite?

>>52103706
Don't a lot of the doors only open under certain conditions already?

>>52103706
You can already shut doors and gates, dude. It's not even new or outlandish to do so. That doesn't even take a specific supergod to do that, it could just be wizards with rituals.

>>52103691

That changes the setting enormously - if the demon I'm meeting in a dark alley to purchase burstflowers from is a level 0 commoner, that's just waterdeep with a reskin. The interesting part comes where this is an actual demon and if I cheat it, it can start shit like an actual demon (And the lady won't save me because it's not warring for its faction, it's just killing me.)

>>52103697
Sounds like you never wanted what FR was to begin with.

FR was Wizard Cold War. That was what it did, what differentiated it from all the other D&D settings. If you don't want that, that's fine, here are some other settings.

>>52103715
All the true planes are.

>>52103738
That's not interesting, that's just a standard encounter. You can fight demons pretty much whenever in standard D&D. Do deals with em too.

>>52103746
So then why are infinite demons a big deal if the other outer planes are infinite too.?

>>52103738
Let's be fair here: If you're hanging in Sigil, you oughta be able to bust demons on the regular.

>>52103738
Wait what separates killing you and warring for it's faction?
I mean any action that furthers it's goals and presumably the goals of its faction could fall under warring for it's faction.

>>52103717
>Don't a lot of the doors only open under certain conditions already?

>>52103727
>You can already shut doors and gates, dude. It's not even new or outlandish to do so. That doesn't even take a specific supergod to do that, it could just be wizards with rituals.

True both of you, but there's a difference between
>"portals are hard to explain and weird, but we can control some of them with rituals"
and
>"portals are hard to explain and weird but we can control some of them with rituals except, for some reason, those to the abyss where no gate has been found that opens more than once a month.

Imagine you're writing the Planescape setting book. If you need a sidebar that specifically tells you why demons aren't ruining shit because the abyss is singled out, you've messed up.

>>52103683
>>52103697
Both forms are viable. The problem got to be that it was trying to be both at the same time.

>>52103706
>Here's the City of Doors! Always open, always available! Many gates will take you here from all over the multiverse, and from here you can go anywhere!

If you have the proper key and combination to the lock.

>>52103741
That is what it gradually developed into over the course of 21 years before the 4e changes it did not start out that way.

>>52103753
It is groups of infinities. Each layer is infinite but not all planes have the same number of layers.

The 7 Heavens are seven infinities, 9 Hells are 9 infinities and the Abyss is infinite infinities.

>>52103762
>Imagine you're writing the Planescape setting book. If you need a sidebar that specifically tells you why demons aren't ruining shit because the abyss is singled out, you've messed up.
So you admit that the lady of pain was a mistake.

>>52103762
I mean, if I was writing Planescape, I wouldn't write a sidebar explaining why demons aren't fucking shit up because I wouldn't write a world where I have to bend over backwards to make sure demons aren't fucking shit up.

>>52103759
>Wait what separates killing you and warring for it's faction?

DM Fiat

>>52103749
>That's not interesting, that's just a standard encounter. You can fight demons pretty much whenever in standard D&D. Do deals with em too.

Yeah but you can't meet them in a bar and agree to a deal in the alleyway next day

>>52103775
Uh, yeah you can, dude. Sometimes, they don't even put on that thin disguise.

>>52101400
According to the lore:
Believe that you can, and make others believe it as well.

>>52103715
In size, yes. However they have a finite number of layers. The Abyss is infinite in both size AND layers.

>>52103771
No.

>>52103773
>I mean, if I was writing Planescape, I wouldn't write a sidebar explaining why demons aren't fucking shit up because I wouldn't write a world where I have to bend over backwards to make sure demons aren't fucking shit up.

Sure, sure, you wouldn't accept the job "write a metropolitan city setting that connects the D&D multiverse." Zeb Cook would.

>>52103784
>>52103775
Fuck my last Eberron game dealt with this exactly.

>>52103790
Infinity is infinity.

>>52103784
>Uh, yeah you can, dude. Sometimes, they don't even put on that thin disguise.

Fucking obviously as a DM I can do whatever the fuck I want. Engage with the point I was making or fuck off.

Destroy reality.

>>52103791
I would, but like him I would make some caveats to how it was incorporated. Instead of a big, bladed dick, I would incorporate area wide debuffs, mysterious quirks to the strange semi-plane, and a series of loosely explained magical rituals and oaths that generally keep the peace.

Really, I could just write that paragraph there and be done.

>>52103753
>So then why are infinite demons a big deal if the other outer planes are infinite too.?

If you're both pouring infinite soldiers through to the city, the war will be decided by whose flow is greater - that is, who controls more gates.

Or the Lady can just wreck all your shit so we can have our metropolitan setting without an infinite war going on.

>>52103802
Each layer has different traits though

>>52103803
What point are you making? That Planescape is special because you deal with outsiders? It's fucking not.

>>52103802
>Infinity is infinity.

Not about to go full >>>/sci/ here but no.

>>52103802
Sounds like somebody's never heard of aleph notation.

>>52103791
You might want to take his dick out of your mouth before you continue the conversation.

>>52103802
[autistic math screeching]

>>52103802
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number

>>52103829
>>52103824
>What point are you making? That Planescape is special because you deal with outsiders? It's fucking not.

It's a city of doors, a highly valuable piece of high ground in the infinite war between worlds, but because of the Lady nobody can take it through warfare so you have factions and spy shit going down all over.

If you remove the lady and turn all outsiders into lvl 0 commoners on entry, they can still fight wars in the city and the setting is very different from how it was with the lady so you haven't solved the problem.

That was the challenge of removing the lady, if you go upthread - have essentially the same setting of intrigue and philosophy. The lady isn't the ONLY solution, but "ousiders are level 0" is not ANY solution.

>>52101848
And this is how you become a BAMF with no skin in a maze.

>>52101400
You dont shes a plot device, hence no stats.

>>52103802
Let's look at something extremely basic
1+1/2+1/4+1/8...
1+1/2+1/3+1/4...

Both of those are infinite, yet just by looking at it you can see that one is a "bigger" infinite.

>>52103802
>Infinity is infinity.

I love that this post became the contentious one.

>>52103860
>Both of those are infinite, yet just by looking at it you can see that one is a "bigger" infinite.

The first series doesn't approach infinity, it approaches 2.

>>52103870
>an infinite series of positive numbers doesn't approach infinity

>>52103876
...Nigga, you just went full retard.

>>52103856
The problem is that you think everybody's cool with just getting their shit stomped in just because they're cool with that. Demons, maybe, but most will not. Mind you that it was also mentioned that the mortal races are not affected by the debuff. Why will they keep the peace of the city and not just work for some other planar overlord? Because other, outsider sponsored mortals could roll in.

They could, but they won't. See, now we have real people running the show. And real people will look at a MAD situation and see it for what it is.

>>52103876
A series of shrinking numbers.

File: Number Systems.png (32KB, 881x503px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 881x503px

>>52103870
A better comparison is the size of R, Q, Z, and N. All four are infinite in size, yet R>Q>Z>N.

>>52103860
I think you mean
1 + (1 + 1/2) + (1 + 1/4) + (1 + 1/8)...
and
1 + (1 + 1/2) + (1 + 1/3) + (1 + 1/4)...

>>52103876
It doesn't you fucking imbecile

>>52101400
By pleasuring her...

>>52103856
>>52103888
I like this. The true keepers of the peace in Sigil are the mortals who jealously keep the city from the hands of the ideologically insane Outsiders that wish to claim it for their own ends but can't themselves. Mortals will quarrel and form factions, but we don't have to worry about it being Armageddon every time. They're, at worst, gang wars. And that's something very okay with Planescape.

>>52103895
And that's completely wrong.

The size of N, Z and Q are exactly the same. You can always find room in N for all the Q numbers. Same aleph, same kind of infinity. It boggles the mind a little bit if you don't understand infinity, but they are exactly the same size.

R is uncountable infinity, so it is definitely bigger than the rest.

>>52102370
A homogenous black population

>>52103876
>An infinitely large series of progressively infinitesimal numbers results in a finite number
WOW. MATH IS REALLY LIKE MAGIC.

>>52101400
stab the DM

>>52101400

Only by somehow getting her to leave her safe space. As long as she's in her city, she's effectively omnipotent and can reconstruct/deconstruct anything that enters that space at will like a LEGO set. Outside of her plane she's probably not nearly as powerful.

It's like asking how you're supposed to survive OPM's punch: you don't, you get in a situation where he won't punch you, you dunce. Some things cannot be solved by brute force.

>>52103907
This is acceptable enough. We'd need more details on exactly how the outsiders are kept in line, but the premise is sound enough. I could even see it becoming an arms race to see just how many of the regular folk in Sigil you could try to sway to your cause. Like to get your holy crusade army passage to this remote world that you're totally not going to go all 4 Horsemen on. You just want to visit.

>>52103888

>Why isn't there war in the City of Doors?
>Lady of Pain who is not an NPC will stomp your ass.
>Ugh powerful NPCs you could never kill are bullshit

new solution:
>Why isn't there war in the City of Doors
>Elminster will stomp your ass
>Ah yes, an NPC I can kill
>No, because you're a level 0 commoner just like all the other outsiders that you people decided to create as PCs when you heard this was a planescape game.

>>52103911
>the set of all positive integers contains the same number of elements as the set of all positive and negative integers plus zero, which contains the same number of elements as the set of all integers plus all rational fractional numbers
They may be the same aleph, but that doesn't mean that doesn't sound suspicious.

>>52103944
I usually don't allow people to play overpowered races myself. Aasimar and Tieflings get a pass because they're basically just weird people.

>>52103911
N would be every whole number with a a factor of 2*3.
Z would be every whole number with a factor of 3
Q would be every whole number
R would be every real number

>>52103954

You can pair the two sets up 1:1 without any leftover numbers though, which kind of implies they're the same size.

>>52103961
>Doesn't like the Lady
>Doesn't like outsider PCs

Maybe... Planescape just isn't for you? I mean, that makes perfect sense, it's not for everybody. I've played there but never DMed there because I like low fantasy shit.

>>52103944
>ever letting players be full outsiders
>even in a planescape game
It's like you're asking for trouble.

>>52103220
If the party finds caine, he drives!

>>52103944
>implying a level 0 outsider couldn't kill Elminster

>>52103970
Have you ever tried to deal with that mess yourself? It's godawful. No game deserves monster race PCs of that caliber.

Exceptions can be made, but the game has also attempted to *make* the exceptions for you with races that are balanced for PCs but still have that good flavor.

>>52101400
i wouldnt, i would make her my wife

>>52103954
When you have two finite sets, then if set A contains set B and some leftovers:

size(A) > size(B).

Logical.

When you have two infinite sets, this doesn't hold true. Infinity is tricky like that. An infinite set can contain another infinite set and some leftovers, and still be no bigger than the infinite set it contains.

In that case they are both infinite, and infinity has always more room for elements. As long as they are the same kind of infinite, they are exactly the same size.

The set of all positive power of two {2, 4, 8, 16, 32, ...} is literally as 'big' as Q.

>>52103965
>without any leftover numbers though
We pair 1 and 1, 2 and 2, 3 and 3,... +infinity and +infinity. We've now got to pair up all the numbers from -infinity to 0. But we've already paired all the numbers in N with 1 to +infinity.

>>52103944
I'm going to tell you that I've never had a player ask me questions like "Why isn't X group doing Y in this setting?" ever in 20 years of gaming.

>>52104008
Mathematically, you pair -1 with infinity + 1 (which is infinity), -2 with infinity + 2, -3 with infinity + 3, etc. -infinity is paired with infinity + infinity, which is still infinity.

I remember I am the GM.

Blades are now dildos. She is now the lady of cocks.

>>52104029
>is still infinity.
Can you prove to me that 2*infinity is not larger than infinity?

>>52104018
My players ask those kind of questions often.

Why would the elf guard this place?

Why are there not more mages in this city?

And so on. I always tell them that they should ask around ICly.

>>52104045
In character? Sure? But like, pulling me aside and going "This doesn't make any sense! Why aren't all the wizards pooling their knowledge into a central repository so that magic will never be forgotten?" Never.

>>52104031
So her maze is now more of a dungeon and the flaying is more of flogging?

I think if the books said she was a god then people wouldn't hate her so much, but the fact that she exactly fits every definition of a god is just lacking creativity on the creator's part.
>She's the most powerful god ever.
That's all you have to say. If you try and play it off like she isn't some form of deity then you at least need to give an explanation as to the nature of her powers. Say she's something out of time like Dr. Manhattan. I'd be cool with that.

>>52103981
>Have you ever tried to deal with that mess yourself?

Yup. It usually works out fine.

It's a lot of work though! I mean, I'm not going to claim you can just hand the MM to your players and tell them "go to town" expecting a good outcome (In particular because one of them might pick a 1 HD +0 adj. creature and just roll "Wizard") but it's doable.

>>52104043
You can map every single elements of 2*infinity with infinity, as long as they are both the same aleph. A good example is Hilbert's Hotel. Check it.

>>52104063
The official stance on 'what is the Lady of Pain' is 'nobody knows'. She might have her own pocket dimension full of worshipers somewhere, nobody has proved that she hasn't.

>>52104061
Yup.
Whalecum to anuscape.

>>52104055
>In character? Sure? But like, pulling me aside and going "This doesn't make any sense! Why aren't all the wizards pooling their knowledge into a central repository so that magic will never be forgotten?" Never.

That happens to me often. Like, not every session, but it definitely happens that they go "wait this seems super exploitable and yet hasn't been exploited in setting - what's preventing me from exploiting it?"

And as the DM, I definitely prefer to have a better answer than "please don't."

>>52104093
But she kills all her worshippers, because if she was a god, then her own rules wouldn't apply to her.

>>52104144
>then her own rules wouldn't apply to her.
>the Lady could be a giant hypocrite
Yes?

>>52104063
Except gods actually have wills and personalities. Besides floating around Sigil randomly, what does LoP do that isn't a consistent, immediate reaction to certain stimuli? She behaves more as an automaton than a man or god.

>>52104169
So she's the god of jellyfish.

>>52104063
>then you at least need to give an explanation as to the nature of her powers

Why? There's lots of things in Planescape that isn't explained. What happens if you leave the Athar domain in the old Fane of Aoskar, go three blocks down the street, turn left and knock on the first door you see? That's information that might ostensibly apply to your game because your players can actually do that, and then you need to make up an answer to their questions.

The nature of the Lady is not necessary at all because all avenues of inquiry are closed. Or if you think it's interesting and want to run a game about it, you can invent whatever.

>>52101400
I would become head of WotC and change the lore by corporate edict.

>>52104063
>>52104169
There are overgods who are as alien to the world as the Lady of Pain. Overgods are limitless beings that exist without worship, not even noticing the gods, much less the mortals. Absolutely nothing is damaged if you choose to just say "she's an overgod".

>>52101400
You don't. She's a Pre-deity entity, and alignment Paragon and those things, save for Jazirian, do NOT have statistics.

The only way to beat her is to literally pull a Pun-Pun or plot-centric over-ass pull of epic proportions like Vecna once did, which at best would only cause the likes of a game edition change.

>>52104325
>or plot-centric over-ass pull of epic proportions like Vecna once did, which at best would only cause the likes of a game edition change.
Not possible (through the same methods) at least after 2E, the Lady patched the "ascend to godhood within Sigil's territory" exploit

>>52101590
>OH SO MYSTERIOUS
>everything needs stats and a complete transparent backstory

>>52104385
She's not even mysterious, she's very straightforward with the things she does, and when she will do them.

>>52101400
If I pull that mask off would she die?

>>52104336
Eh, only other way of beating her is the Spoony Trick, after getting mazed which I actually found in the Dragon magazine in 3.5, so I don't know what older edition he found the other example.

Only other thing I can say about her is that Elder Evil, namely the actual ones that aren't homegrown in the great wheel cosmology and are from the Aboleth Pantheon (Lovecraftian by proxy) and Voidharrow's successful Thrazriduun might be able to beat her, seeing as a mandatory Elder Evil feature is somehow the fact that they are immune to Damage that comes under the factor of "Throw something big at it to hurt it."

So, things that technically could hurt, if not kill her:
Fucking with her connection to Sigil
Thrazridun after he blew everything up and shedded his divinity to become a Great Old One, (Alignment system is dead so he can't be Elder Evil) leaving the boundaries of the native universe, being a being of entropy and physical matter opposed to the energy form of a deity born from the Astral Sea, seeing as his destruction of everything in Voidharrow in the parralel world would have to also mean Sigil too.
Ahriman, if he ever secures enough Atheist Souls to devour, (last evidenced instance of activity was the ban on unborn souls which plays into his agenda far to accurately to be ignored)
Select Elder Evils that are Far Realm/Far outside centric
A D&D Jester (Never fuck with these)
Pun-Pun
Pandemonium shrunk into Bullet form and shot from Murlynd's gun.
Highly min-maxed patriarch age category Greater vampire, non Orcus, made from Malcanthet with Lord of the land status in the Elemental Plane of blood, classing him with the benefits of a demigod as the highest age category vampire, a Demon Lord through his original sire, and Elder Evil by age, and his additional form gained at age 1000 which can tacfully, be anything with no limit (So it picks elder evil) and it's lord of the land benefits.

>>52104309
>Overgods are limitless beings
Nobody outside their crystal sphere gives a single shit about them, because their word's only any good inside.

>>52104434
Oh right:
Accerak, had he succeeded in his spliced adventurer soul powered ritual to replace the active default driver's seat will of the Plane of Negative energy.
Orcus with his original Dweomer that landed him smack bang in the Abyss in the first place according to Gary Gygax himself, despite this being debatable over the fact that this is referenced in future works post 3.5 when Slayers Guide to the Undead was published, or the last word, though that's debatable, fucking cunt survived a Sphere of annihilation and got the power to control undead-centric exploding ones out of it.
What happens if an Alienist Summons Dagon, Demon Prince of the Darkned Depths by knowing his true name. Would literally summon the REAL Dagon stuck in the form of the PROXY Dagon if you know how pseudonatual creatures work

>>52104482
Nah none of those can beat DM fiat.

>>52104479
Nobody outside of Sigil gives a single shit about the Lady of Pain

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>>52104434
>Select Elder Evils that are Far Realm/Far outside centric
If you want a named one, it's called Pandorym. It has been tasked to kill every god in the multiverse. A single thought that escaped its head is an epic-level psionic threat.
If Pandorym were ever released, the canonical epilogue for the DM to detail to the players is how it slays every last deity without possibility of being halted, leaving reality to drift derelict, then crumbling into nonexistence.

Considering it's so far outside the scope of anything else, even Elder Evils, I'd put the complete Pandorym at the top of every tier list.

>>52104636
because LoP doesn't fucking matter ouside of Sigil based planescape campaigns.

>>52104636

All the whiners in this thread are shitposting from sigil?

Fucking explains a thing or two.

>>52104692
>this whole thread is a Tanar'ri false flag operation

>>52104689
So yeah it fits.

>>52101438
Drink bleach. Faggoten Realms ruined 2nd Ed.

>>52101590
I'd like to know what a good splat would be in comparison plebanon?

ITT: A bunch of nerds argue how to kill an un-statted character who exists solely as background flavour or a plot device within the scope of the setting she is in.

>>52103351
Which god did he fight?

I mean the beasties of his labours aren't gods, Hera doesn't count as a fight, Lepreus or Antaeus have no more claim to be a god than Polyphemos, he challenged Dionysus to a drinking contest but like Thor he fucking lost,

>>52104428
For all that we know, that mask is the entirety of her being. Pull that mask off, and all you've got is a very pissed-off Lady of Pain between your two hands.

>>52101400
This is like asking how you can kill the God Emperor/the Chaos Gods in a 40K game.

How you can kill Cain in VTM.

How to kill all the dragons all at once in Shadow Run.

You aren't meant to. They're core parts of the setting that help keep the setting how it is and add to the flavour; without them, the setting would be much less interesting. Simiarily, the Lady is a fluffy, fun way of ensuring that people don't try to mary sue bullshit a setting about adventures into some weird multidimensional context.

Also, D&D and all of its modules are written from the mindset of a most N/L/C G party. Why would people who are good want to kill something like the Lady anyway, that maintains the peace?

>>52102718
Anthropromorphised concepts are inherently more interesting than faceless laws and more flavourful too. You're playing a fantasy game where gods embody things like death, destruction, magic and fire. Why are you so incredulous that the arbtier of Sigil should be anthropromorphised? Why is it so hard to believe that she adds to the flavour of the setting.

>>52102557
Ao is actually more retarded because despite his single minded focus on the Realms, there is literally nothing that indicates why; he's not even the creator god and half the gods he barely has control over because they're not from there.

His existence only affecting one pantheon also illustrates one of the big issues of the transition to 3e with FR, which suddenly lost two whole continents somehow because the devs never bothered to update Karatur or Al Qadim.

>>52103164
I want a 5e setting book that still has Vecna trapped in his own realm, where the prison is literally illusions of divine beings praising him as the greatest wizard who ever lived for defeating the lady, among other things.

>>52104428
It would be extremly ladyofpainful.

>>52101400
Talk her into killing herself. Being invincible there is no point in using force.

>>52105125

She's a big statue

>>52105018
>You aren't meant to. They're core parts of the setting that help keep the setting how it is and add to the flavour; without them, the setting would be much less interesting.
The Lady of Pain isn't interesting and I'd argue that a setting without her that isn't so weak that it has to NEED her to justify itself, would be far more interesting.

>>52105146
Get them into the maze, I'll call her in!

>>52103333
In a city as big as Sigil, you really think that banishing, at a maximum, 8 things a day will make a difference? Not including the fact that some one could just throw 9 assassins at you to steal it.

>>52103405
100ft aint shit either. They wait until you have it up rooted and send 100 guards to take it from you. Would you like to try again?

>>52104843
Thanatos is the one I know he's fought, but I think he also fought another.

My main problem with the Lady of Pain is that, as a GM, she makes my job incredibly difficult when it comes to doing anything high level in sigil.

Stories need conflict and in D&D this is especially important. The problem is that anything that's a credible threat in sigil will most likely upset the balance of sigil, and thus the Lady of Pain will have to step in and get involved. This leaves me in an awkward spot that I can't directly challenge my players with anything too strong, which means they aren't getting a challenge.

As well as this, she's awkward as fuck to use, because if something does happen, the setting revolves so much around her that if my players or an NPC does anything big enough, she'll have to appear them and they get maze'd without a proper resolution. Sigil has a 'rocks fall everyone dies' trigger, and I consider that a sign of shit DMing.

tl;dr the Lady of Pain is a forced narrative device that not only shouldn't be needed, makes my job as a DM more difficult, but forces me to make decisions I don't like to do because it's a sign of being a bad GM to need them.

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Lady of Pain is an Overdeity like Lord Ao, you can't refute this. Ao doesn't want to be worshiped, no overdeity does, they don't need or want that. It's just that Lady of Pain takes it a step further and murders anyone who tries to worship her. Ao and other Overdeities can destroy even Greater Deities with ease, they just normally stay out of the drama like Lady does, it's just that Lady is in a place where she's more likely to be challenged by upstarts, that's why you hear more stories of her violence compared to Ao. And if you ignore splat books nothing stands beyond Overdeities except for the Dungeon Master, like when Ao reported back to his master. So, she's an Overdeity. Prove me wrong. You can't.

>>52105038
>there is literally nothing that indicates why
The Realms (or more specifically Realmspace) are his domain, just like Krynnspace is the High God's. That's like asking why Loviatar cares about pain, or Silvanus cares about the forests.

>>52105282
>Ao doesn't want to be worshiped
Nigger has priests, what the fuck are you on about?

>>52105300
Not that anon but worshiping Ao is an express ticket to the Wall, that's how much he thinks of his followers. Just because he doesn't actively hunt them down like the Lady of Pain, does not mean he cares about worship.

>>52105308
>worshiping Ao is an express ticket to the Wall
Worshiping Ao is an express ticket to a specialty priest kit. Planescape a 2e setting, use 2e lore.

>>52105322
>a specialty priest kit
Specifically the one that says you are not a priest.

>>52105292
The High God at least has some semblance of creator myth elements; Ao doesn't even figure in those.

>>52105510
In 2e lore (specifically Faiths and Avatars), Ao's noted as having so little to do with mortals the only reason anybody other than the deities knows he exists is him appearing on Mount Waterdeep during the Time of Troubles. He doesn't even grant spells for worship, so his cult spends most of its time debating what he actually is, whether he answers to anybody else, what he does when he's not smacking gods about or playing cosmic bouncer, and that sort of shit. Religious philosophy, basically.

His role seems to be to oversee the activities of the deities in Realmspace, make sure none of them are trying to blow it up, and vet any incoming gods to make sure they aren't going to fuck anything up. He's basically a bouncer.

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>>52105564
But could Ao defeat a Great Wyrm Nexus Dragon that attacked his section of the multiverse?

>>52105322
>>52105338
I suppose it's kinda off-topic, but what kit are you talking about and where can I read more about it?

>>52105656
>'Theoretically, Ao's avatar can do anything'
Yes.

>>52105697
There isn't actually a kit for Ao's priests, because he doesn't give them spells. Faiths and Avatars, the definitive 2e book on FR's gods, says
>Clergy: Ministers, who may be of any class except those of the priest group.
The best match for actual Ao clergy is probably some sort of Sage (DMGR8 Sages & Specialists), specialising in religious philosophy.

The other gods all get proper Specialist Priest writeups, because they actually engage with mortals.

>>52101400
All I got from this thread:
If I can convince my enemies to begin to worship the Lady of Pain, then invite them over to my place in Sigil, then the Lady of Pain will come by a murder them (and possibly me for being a cheeky cunt).

Use her like the splitting of the atom; force of nature turned into a weapon.

>>52102592

She doesn't do that. The Lady doesn't seem to actually exist anywhere until she gets triggered.

Then she is just... there. Spawning out of Sigil itself. She shows up, lays down the lay, and vanishes again without a word.

She is like Rover in The Prisoner.

>>52101400
Why would I want to? She keeps pests out of the city.

>>52105863
It would be simpler to convince your enemies to just worship you and cut their throats for your glory, you're still doing extra to fuck with her.

>>52105656
Am I the only one who things the word "nexus" is way overused?

>>52102688
Underrated post.

>>52101438
The first post being the best post is not a constant, but is true some times. This is one of those times.

>>52104684
Does this include Overgods? Because I thought they were beyond death and had complete control over their reality.

I vaugely recall somone mentioning a way to kill her using an Epic Boon for rogues, which taking it allows them to steal one item of epic proportions no questions asked.

The example given was stealing the infamy of a balor general, which caused the balors demonic army to serve and obey the rogue, as they always had, obviously, what do you mean they used to work for some balor? I mean you'd think it makes sense but nah, obviously they serve that halfling dude over there.

You use it to either steal her shadow, or steal her immunity to her own shadow, and presto.

No idea what they were actually talking about though specifically, I mean this is Epic level D&D after all, we've all seen the story of the guy who took a epic level NPC courtesan as his party member and absolutely sucked at everything and eventually betrayed the party to become the mistress of the BBEG, only to reveal once they retired to the bedroom, that his real character was an Epic-Level halfling assassin with a courtsan cohort while using a DC80+ acrobatics check to conceal himself inside her ass for the entire campaign, who once the BBEG removed his armour, dislodged himself and once more performed the DC80+ acrobatics check to squeeze up the BBEG's ass and sneak-attack blender him from the inside.

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How would you kill him?