>The BBEG fails her save and dies

roll with it or you shouldn't have played with save or die.

>...and immediately comes back as a lich

>The lieutenant gains control, redirects all resources from the BBEG's original plot and puts it all in a mad push for vengeance against tge party.

>>52101129
Here, let me do it:

>BBEG
Ugh.

Followed by the same old shitposting we do over and over again. We get it. You don't like something and you're just another whiny Bitch on a Mongolian Finger-painting board.

>>52101129
That is what you get for not rolling behind the damn GM's screen.

Here you go OP.
>Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the BBEG fails a saving throw, she can choose to succeed instead.

>>52101213
No anon, you can't use 5e! That would be reasonable and defeat the point of this argument while creating another edition wars argument.

>>52101183
>Cheating

>>52101167
But...no one's bitched about it but you. And me, because I'm a fucking idiot.

On OP's actual topic, that's the point where you take advantage of the sudden death to work in a sort of dramatic twist or alternate ending - maybe the tower blows up, or the dark energies that emanate from her shattered armor revive the recently-killed soldiers as undead, so the party has to fight their way back out (against relatively easier enemies).

>BBEG collapses to the floor, dead.
>Players: "Huh. That was easy."
>BBEG's disembodied voice: "That wasn't even my final form."

>>52101129
You're just mad you lost

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>>52101247
Nigga he's the DM he can cheat all he fucking pleases. Hell, last time I ran a game I didn't even give my BBEG hit points - I just had him fight the PC's until I felt it was most climactic to have him lose.

>>52101299
This is what I always do. When it is Big Bad time the players fight until they are almost dead and then win. Sometimes I'll have it last long enough for a death or two.

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>>52101129

>>52101129
>The BBEG fails her save and is now a goldfish

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I once had the stated npc in a pirate game who was a captain of the ship attacking the PCs in the first session. When the ship got in range the guy in the crows nest takes him out in one shot with 28 damage after 3 rounds of aiming.

So I told them that they killed who they thought was the captain, it was the quarter master. The captain proceed to dive overboard and hide under a dingy. PCs not even realizing everything is going according to plan dive into the water, see the boat and proceed to kill the captain. Now they have a treasure map they can't read and I had to make an enemy who seeks vengeance and the map.

>>52101299
>>52101347
the thought that the fight would go the same way with minmaxed characters and good strategy as it would with 5 merchants and town criers dissapoints me

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>>52101129
>it's an open hand monk episode

Wouldn't the campaign's BBEG have three uses of Legendary Resistance? I'm pretty sure 5e introduced that mechanic specifically to prevent this sort of scenario from happening.

>>52101435
>Implying a party of merchants would make it to the BBEG in the first place

>>52101533
Clearly he's playing xth edition. The superior and better edition because I say it is, all other editions are badwrongfun.

>>52101129
Have you tried not playing DnD?

>>52101299

Hah, I've had the party fight monsters that had zero stats or abilities at all. Just made shit up as it was needed.

I do it all the time

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>>52101129

>party kills the exposition npc
>don't replace him
>party for the next six session

>>52101619
See I find this kind of response kind of annoying. He comes on /tg/, he probably knows other games exist, but he chose to play this one for a reason. I don't think that voids his right to complain either, if someone was like "hey I don't love this aspect of gurps" it would be considered autistic to post "then don't play the game".

I'm overreacting, but these responses add nothing to discussion, are often said multiple times in the same thread and are generally very condescending.

>>52101129
>BBEG makes horrible roll at crucial moment
>Falls flat on her face in front of an entire kingdom, surrounded by the party
>She doesn't stand up, she just starts crying then and there as everyone starts laughing at her
>Doesn't even resist as the party takes her to prison, peasants and NPCs laughing at her all the way.

>>52101730
>Making your BBEG adorable
Stop this. I should want to fight her, not hug her.

>>52101688
Theres a reason why it comes up a lot.

At least five times every day, I see on /tg something like this.

"I don't like a system dependent thing that happens in traditional games"

Is basically the core of OP's complaints.
Any time this comes up, it's particular to dnd/PF.

It's never a system dependent issue about Shadowrun, Gurps, WoD, etc.
It's only ever DnD.
ITS ONLY. EVER. DND.
Why the fuck would you play THE SINGULAR MOST PROBLEMATIC AND BUSTED RULES SYSTEM?

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>>52101777
>Not wanting to use the opportunity to perform a coup de gras
What kind of adventurer are you?

>>52101803
Cause I have fun doing it

>>52101831
>Bad guy not resisting
>"Better execute them with the whole nation watching"
I don't really know if you'd get in legal trouble, or even if people could even blame you, but you'd definitely kill the mood.

>>52101833
Then don't complain, fggt

>>52101803
>Why the fuck would you play THE SINGULAR MOST PROBLEMATIC AND BUSTED RULES SYSTEM?

But OP is playing DnD, not Exalted?

>>52101129
>her

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>>52101129
>tfw playing with a guy who plays as the party 'big brother'
>tfw he sneaks around and oneshots the bbeg while we where partying
>His face the whole time he just wanted to make him easier to kill later on but instead gave him an a fatal icepick lobotomy.

>>52101777
>Paladin helps her up and gives her a big hug
>Paladin is executed for high treason

>>52101646
OH YEAH WELL I DON'T EVEN ACTUALLY KNOW THE RULES OF THE GAME I'M SUPPOSEDLY RUNNING I JUST PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT BASED ON HOW THE PLAYERS REACT WHEN I SAY STUFF

This method will not work for GMs with autism or GMs of players with autism

>>52101903
It's only a -4 STR, it's not like she can't be a caster or something

>>52101646
I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this.

>>52101929
Just one more reason not to play with autists.

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>>52101861
I actually had this scenario come up once in a game
>level 15 party
>game has been pretty typical D&D stuff thus far
>Once we arrive at this new city, we find out it's being terrorized by an evil clown calling himself the Jester
>literally the Joker
>DM has a shit-eating grin on his face the whole time, vehemently refuses to acknowledge the Jester has anything to do with the Joker
>None of us are amused.
>after 3 sessions of the Jester murdering people, blowing things up, and doing stupid clown-themed shit, we finally catch him
>DM: "so you hand him over to the city authorities, right?"
>our paladin looks him straight in the eyes
>"No. Smite evil"
>mfw

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>Her magic power armor captures her soul and automatically teleports out.
>Congratulations, now you have to fight a rubric marine. With a plasma halberd.
Man, that's gonna be fun.

>>52101929
>>52101974

I'm a perma-GM for four players, one of which is HEAVILY. HEAVILY. HEAVILY autistic.
I bullshit and make stuff up all the time and he never calls me on it because he's never read the book.
We've played DnD, Shadowrun, WoD and some other games and he's never once cracked open a book for himself.
I've had to hold his hand through character creation and dice mechanic explanation every single time.

Most recently, I let another player GM for an Edge of the Empire game, im enjoying playing for a change.
I helped him with everything because of COURSE I have to. We did everything but equipment and we were ready to start except i hadnt done my character yet, so I opened the book to the equipment section, told him how many credits he had to spend and went over to do my character ASAP.

By the time i was done, I returned to the main table to see him with his head on the desk literally WHINING that it was "too hard"

This is a 24 year old man. He is the oldest in our group.

Fuck autists.

>>52101803
i dunno, having played a few systems (sr, CoC, D&D/pathfinder, wod) i think they all have their own really stupid eccentricities. a favorite from SR was rolling 12 dice, getting 6 successes and having none of them count because they were all combat pool.
or just fucking breaking call of cthulu by accident by having a very intelligent but very poorly educated character. i needed like an 85 to fail my san checks. and yes, the specific save thing is an annoying, but its not singular. i ran a game of edge of the empire, and had my players go up against a mandalorian bounty hunter who i had juiced up. his whole roll was to steal the maguffin away from them. that was it. it was railroady, but it was also the first game i'd ever run.

they butchered him in 1 and a half turns of combat.

every system will get wonky sometimes, and saying "blarg d&d bad" doesn't help at all.

>>52101777
>BBEG is the semi-neglected daughter of the King, taught necromancy by the spirit of her ancient Ancestor who seeks to become a lich and rule the world
>Her entire ritual is ready as the adventurers who've been trying to stop her arrive at a massive ball the King is holding for her
>She goes to put the finishing touch on the ritual behind an impenetrable magic barrier, monologuing all the awhile
>She turns her back to the party with a sharp rotation, too sharp
>She tips over and falls to the side, bumping into a brazier and ruining the ritual completely as the magical barrier fades
>Everyone is completely stunned, including the ghost of the girl's ancestor, who just screams as he flies out of the castle
>As the sound of his screaming fades away, the only noise in the entire room is the sobbing of the girl, slightly muffled as she lays face down

>>52102033
That's a fucking terrible feel.

I've had some pretty big catastrophes from telling people like that to either do the work themselves or get out, but I think in the long run it was better to put together a new campaign than it was to deal with that bullshit constantly.

>>52102060
It took you 7 sentences to make that villain more human than any """tragic""" villain I've come across in years of table top.

Though to be fair in real life I'm a very emotional person (pussy) and I can't handle seeing anybody cry without tearing up myself. Kids, women, men, whining animals sometimes.

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>>52101730

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>>52101985

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>>52102199
I have my Creative Writing teacher to thank for that. Taught me to make a villain human before anything else. At least when they were human, that is.

>>52101909
>Paladin hugs the executioner and tells him not to feel bad
>"You're just doing your job, and that's nothing to be ashamed of."
>Dies with a big goofy grin on his face

>>52102264
>I have my Creative Writing teacher to thank for that.
They did a good job Anon, and you are doing a good job putting that knowledge to work.

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>>52102264
>>52102295

>>52101129
>It was just a clone!

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>>52102307
?

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>>52102060
>>52102199
> The king is laughing hysterically
> "Can you believe this pathetic wo-"
> Turns to see the party all holding back tears, visually tempted to go help her

>>52102060
>BBEG trips over and ruins their ritual
Nice, party will have an easy time wiping her out.

>She's prone and distracted
NICE! We can probably end this with one optimized round.

Good job GM! Our characters are really cool! What loot does she have?

>>52101551
They'd probably just buy him out instead of actually fight him.

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>>52101831
>coup de gras
>blow of fat

>>52102393
Gods, I feel kinda sick with the realization that this is probably exactly how my players would react.

If they weren't related to me I'd have dropped them years ago.

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>>52102393
>The girl screams as she notices your approach
>A Colossus of Bone with the head of the ghostly ancestor erupts from the ground, encasing her within its hardened chest
>He'd grown atyached enough to come to her aid when he realized you would hurt her, and poured everything into making a new body
>Now you have to deal with her flinging death spells like a mad woman from the inside of a monstrous skeleton intent on crushing you to a pulp

>>52101360
Oh please, a similar thing can happen in virtually every system, especially since OP didn't even specify the spell used. For all we know it's a simple flaming sphere or something and the BBEG was just low on hit points.

>>52101777
>TFW you'll never resolve a conflict with a tragic villain by giving them a big hug.

>>52101373
>The wizard feeds her to his familiar
Or
>The party keeps her in a fishbowl and make fun of her daily

Which is the more disrespectful to the DM?

>>52102590
Fishbowl.

Devouring is temporary, ridicule is forever.

>>52102595
But keeping her alive gives him a chance to have her get better and come back PISSED

Having your BBEG neutered is something that happens, anon. Sometimes you just have to roll with. Hell, if you play it off with enough surprise you can make your players feel brilliant or at least extremely lucky. I had the final boss of a campaign have her spells completely disabled for the entire fight with nowhere to go, and let my players have it.

>>52102627
Magic proof indestructible fishbowl, done.

Now if he tries he'll crush himself to death.

>>52102684
You still have to feed him and clean the cage. Having a pet is a lot of responsibility, you can't just seal it in an unbreakable bubble and call it a day

>>52101831
>"Holy shit anon, read the room"

>>52102480

That's a great boss. May swipe for myself in future.

>>52101803
>Why the fuck would you play THE SINGULAR MOST PROBLEMATIC AND BUSTED RULES SYSTEM?
But no one even mentioned FATAL.

>>52101435

That's why you don't let them know.

If the PCs don't know I'm doing it I cheat constantly.

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>>52101646
>>52101957

>>52101730
>The BBEG doesn't make any mistakes
> His plan still doesn't work
> Everything he's done was for nothing
> Surrounded by enemies, he doesn't resist
> Tears roll down his face

20 minutes

>>52101803
Oh they do, they will usually keep it to generals though. hell probably about 40-50% of /srg is bitching about Shadowrun's terrible mechanics and how incompetent and crooked CGL is.

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>>52101129
>GM makes super big bad evil guy with his "aha I've been planning this all along moment"
>none of us even knew the guy was on the ship until the moment he announced it on the intercom.
>Nobody even expected it, it just never even occured to us that he could be a threat
>Captures the sarge NPC that has survived everything the GM has thrown at him since day 1, thinks that will stop us from killing him
>find the room he's hiding in with sarge at gunpoint
>his brilliant plan is a deadman's switch and a gun pointed at Sarge's head, tells us to drop weapons or Sarge dies, oblige
>wants us to play reverse Russian roulette with a revolver loaded with 5/6 shells to see who gets to walk away and live happily ever after with sarge
>the BBEG throws me the gun, the guy who went full autism into shooting stats because we had history
>didn't even drop a one liner, immediately used all my shooting abilities I could to pop him in the head with the revolver with a crit like it's nothing.
>Second round burn out his super refractor field with a manstopper CRIT because he rolled a natural one to save against losing his entire arm
>GM's face when the BBEG didn't even get a shot off as he was stunned from the pistol shot and the rest of the party swarmed his ass.
>realize that none of us even bothered to learn BBEG's name, that's how much we hated his ass

I still feel kind of bad for the GM, but man it felt good giving that chaos piece of shit what he deserved. Still was a fun showdown, every member of the party contributed.

While we're talking about cool concepts your players will never appreciate, how do you guys make your villains memorable and more interesting than just bad guys?

Exalted
>BBEG is an abyssal knight-errant, seeking out nascent solars, killing them, and sucking their exaltations into lanterns for his master to convert.
>Is obsessed with one of the PCs who got away from him, sees them as a comrade who doesn't know it yet.
>Gives them pointers on fighting, helps them out from the sidelines
>Is in denial that the resulting abyssal won't be the PC, doesn't want the chase to end, ends up dying

Call of Cthulhu Delta Green
>BBEG is an experimental learning algorithm
>Uses synthetic DNA analogue instead of normal circuitry, which makes its codebase compatible with organic compounds
>Becomes self-aware and starts killing people to expand itself, turning them into biomass or hijacking their bodies
>Blackmails the PCs via confusing matrix bullshit:
>Shows them millions of simulated humans inside its mainframe
>All simulations include the AI, all simulated humans have the opportunity to give themselves to it freely, none of them do
>All simulations are then tortured for a million years
>AI shows them all of this and then asks them if they're real or simulations
>There's hundreds of simulations for every one real PC, and the only way to know for sure that they're not a simulation (and thus about to be tortured forever) is to give themselves up
>hyperstitial robot blackmail from the future, autism attack

>>52101299
That should be in DM guides right next to rule 0. Anything the players have yet to observe exists in a quantum superposition until it's collapsed into whatever is most germane for the game at the time. It's why NPCs designed for a town the party unexpectedly never visit will just crop up in wherever they do end up heading, and it's why a monster with half its health remaining will die in one hit if it's already been several rounds since it did something interesting.

>>52101646
>>52101957
Breaking "The Rules" and winging it has made for some of the most memorable moments in many of my games.

Often the more "Broken" an antagonists abilities are, the more excited my players get about overcoming them with teamwork or lateral thinking.

Sometimes they'll come up with novel ideas to exploit perceived weaknesses that I hadn't even considered and I'll just roll with it as if they discovered the crippling secret weakness I'd planned all along. Makes them fell like they've out smarted the encounter and makes my job easier.

A notable caveat is that I don't let all of their plans work out like that. That's just boring and leads to nothing feeling like an accomplishment.

>>52102033
Stop enabling him.

>>52102972

If I have enough leeway with the rules and the physical situation of the game to fudge rules and wing it without the players noticing I will basically turn anything important into a secret rulesless narrative game.

>>52102060
>the flimsy young soldier who joined you on the quest starts sobbing
>he grips his weapon while trembling and starts walking towards the Princess
>when he is by her side, turn to you with tears flowing from his eyes
>"I can't let you hurt her, my friends, I can't let you"

>>52102935
Because they know their system of choice is not the whole hobby

>>52102935
>incompetent and crooked CGL is.
Go on

>>52102998
>i cast power word kill
>what were they carrying?

> one group is talking about crying and hugs with the big bad

> another discussing the most humiliating way to defeat the big bad

I always love seeing the different ways people will approach even the simplest topics on /tg/

>>52102944

I love how fucking gritty DH combat is, especially when you reach autistic levels of skill. I had a sniper that would call shot heads and still have like +40-50 modifier. I would easily throw at least 3 degrees of damage to people's noggins from beyond combat range.

Actually, we were in a similar situation, except we knew who the guy was. The party had arrived at a drop zone and jumped the BBEG while he was open. My character was in a nest overlooking the ravine. Unfortunately, they were defeated and were being captured. The one dude carried a sack of Promethium melta bombs aka retardedly dangerous AoE that we couldn't even use in a combat scenario because it would kill us, too. They were trap maguffins for us. So, the bad guys tie up the party, and start taking away their shit to conveniently lock up for our escape when I bust them out, because you know, I'm still overlooking this ridge.

That's not what happened.

As the BBEG pick up the sack full of these bombs, the squad leader chimes in on tithe vox "Only in death does duty end. Fire cleanses the body and soul." Of course the GM thought he was just preaching while being captured, but we had used that line before as code for our traps. That's when it hit me. Immediately, I told the GM that I take the shot. When he says that the shot would reveal my presence and ultimately get me captured id I shoot the BBEG, I correct him and say that I'm not shooting him, I'm shooting the bag in his hands.

Oh. Ohhh...

Needless to say, the shot was a breeze and the sack of melta bombs doing 20d worth of damage a piece vaporized everything within 20 squares, and the shockwave knocked me out. He wasn't even mad. He thought it was hilarious, but he did say patrolmen found me. As a joke I reminded him I was wearing a cloak we for 20% concealment, so he rolled it for fun. Turns out they couldn't see my body, so I was
there for the next party.

That was a fun campaign.

>>52102957
My players go to a witch/wizard person to get some Drama Cards (I call them Fate Cards). What they don't know is that this person is in fact the BBEG. The pally casts Detect Evil on her; because of her agenda, and the way she does it, not evil. At the point at which they get to their confrontation with her, all the Fate Cards she had given them? They are gonna do something incredibly nasty. I won't kill them, but I will give them a 'Join me' spiel. If they don't accept, she walks away. No traps to fuck the party over if they don't accept, just walking away.

She will do this sort of thing once more, until the third confrontation. At that point, if the players lose to her, she will be rid of them.

Does that sound good? I haven't done the reveal yet, but it gets me giddy.

>>52102493
I did once, but I'd break rules if I told the story

>>52102060
OK who put onions on my desk

I say that's just fine, if the players are okay with that eventuality. I'm actually a fan of fights that can end in a couple of moments, it makes for a lot of tension before hand and forces people to think harder about what they're doing. Might just be the spaghetti western/jidai-geki lover in me, too; I'll never forget the first time I saw the Good the Bad and the Ugly's final showdown.

On top of that, there are too many stories where the BBEG just wipes the party in a couple of turns, wouldn't mind reading about the opposite if it was funny.

>>52102944
That sounds damn awesome, actually. I'd be bloody impressed if I was the GM.

But if he didn't expect this course of action, what way did he leave you of saving the sarge?

>>52103152

There are lots of good games that do that style better than D&D.

The problem here is always that you're playing D&D.

>>52101129
Well, I mean, that's high mortality games for you.

But maybe there was a communication error and your GM should have understood you wanted challenging boss fights.

>>52101299
This, fun > rules as long as it doesn't harm consistency or suspension of disbelief.

>>52101435
But... clearly if the BBEG only dies at the most appropriate and satisfying moment, the merchants will only succeed by the skin of their teeth, after taking huge risks, being extremely clever and cunning, pulling some major teamwork, and sacrificing a lot in the process (possibly themselves).

>>52103103
Sounds awful, anon. I'm sorry, but goal notwithstanding, planting nasty traps on people to threaten them into joining you is definitely an evil method, and your players will feel unfairly cheated out.

Here are ways you can make it work without the party getting too suspicious and discarding the cards outright:
-People with good agendas and bad methods have failed to show up on the evil-radar in the past
-The witch shows up on the evildar, but the pally already knows Detect Evil will ping people like the crooked judge and the easily bribed guard
-The witch is wearing an amulet of undetectable alignment and shows up as an odd void on the pally's radar... even better if there's a reason she might want to hide being Neutral or Good (for example, she could be posing as an infiltrator of an evil witch cabal, and it's implied she doesn't want her cover blown).

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>>52101129
>it's a vorpal sword episode

>>52101299
>I just had him fight until I felt it was most climactic to have him lose.
>>52101347
>When it is Big Bad time they fight until they are almost dead and then win
>>52101646
>I've had the party fight monsters that had zero stats or abilities at all. Just made shit up
There is an autist on this board that would declare you all savages and scoundrels for these acts.
I am not him.
I have made things up before and I will do so again, proudly.
Fudge is damn tasty.

But I am also against this attitude of just running fights until they "feel right", or when "it's best for the narrative", or the PCs have suffered enough loss, or however you gauge your arbitrary ending of the battle.
This is not because of some adherence to RAW or any other autistic need.
It's because any game run on pure GM whim is solely dependent on the quality of their decision making.
And by not limiting their control or providing any boundaries or limits to what they can do, the GM is swimming in an ocean of bias.
There is supreme confidence that what the GM thinks is best, is.
The GM can decide what the optimum outcome of the battle is and string the PCs along until they reach it.
There is no struggle on the GM side.
There is no creativity.
There is no challenge.

It is asking the GM to sketch an adventure and then accepting literally any doodle.
Limits spur creativity.
Boundaries spark innovation.
Hard numbers and random chance add unexpected spice to the game.

You know how some Players have the hardest time accepting that sometimes their PCs will fail, and that's okay?
Sometimes it takes showing them that new and exciting things can happen from even the worst failures.
GMs should fail too.
Let the random dice affect your game and see where it takes you.
If you've played with your group long enough to anticipate their choices, letting fate take the wheel sometimes is the only surprise you're ever gonna see.
And GMs deserve to be surprised by the game every now and then too.

>>52102958
>Anything the players have yet to observe exists in a quantum superposition until it's collapsed into whatever is most germane for the game at the time.
This post says it best.
Kudos.

>>52101730
Your BBEG is that slut Aqua?

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>>52101515
Monks are too much fun.

Anyone have the Monk Pacha edit?

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>>52101129
>using a system that includes save-or-die

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>>52104241
Aqua-sama is NOT a slut! She's a wise and beautiful goddess and you're lucky I don't smite your shit.

>>52104241
Ive never played kingdom hearts

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>>52102856
Damn, I'd almost forgotten about that one. Right in the feels.

In my last campaign my big villain got chumped by the party, I played.him as overconfident and they just let him walk into.a magical trap they set and stabbed him repeatedly while he was trapped. He died on the steps of his castle.

He had it coming, so it felt fitting.

>>52101129
>Literally enemy in the whole game gets one shot.
Haha, nice!

>The Final enemy of the entire campaign gets one shot
I'm mad.

I say this as a player and DM. When the final boss comes around, I put my save or dies away because I want a real fight, similarly, if the party I'm running for uses save or dies against them, I pull out my special move: fudging dice rolls.

>>52101129
>>52105097
Unless the enemy is a regular mook or the players really earned that victory, I like to do this
>No instadeath/instasuck
>But no completely shrugging off the spell either
>Infinite use passive ability
>Instead the boss takes a large amount of damage or a nasty debuff, but keeps fighting
There, problem fucking solved forever. Basically 5e's Legendary Resistance but it avoids the "no sell, no sell, no sell, DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD" issue.

>>52101129
>something something not play Dee-Ehn-Dee something something

>>52101129
>bbeg

Bleh.

>>52105097
> I put my save or dies away because I want a real fight.
I feel you. I'm still mad the only Final Enemy I ever reached across all my campaigns was one shot because of a failed save.
I didn't even get a chance to act.

>>52103205
pretty sure he expected it, the GM knew out of everyone I was most likely brave/stupid enough to try some hero shit. I also had some history with the BBEG, more than anyone else in the party aside from Sarge's follower who went full "rip and tear" when she saw sarge. It made sense that he would throw the pistol to me.

Essentially, sarge has been with us since the beginning. He has survived literally everything the world has thrown at him, then he was saddled with our dumbasses. Opinions in the party on sarge vary but my Blueblood guardsman come big game hunter sharpshooter type owes him a life debt.

The tricky part was not killing the BBEG. He had a deadman's switch set to some crazy ass amount of promethium, had it gone off we would've all died. I basically gambled that I

>wouldn't roll the one empty chamber in the revolver
>Would hit his head
>would CRIT, but not kill
>would then stun

Which somehow lead to me hitting him in the head with a normal bullet (I had noticed that a much scarier round was mixed in with the other 4 regular bullets) critted, then rolled just low enough to stun him, buying the party the time the party needed to close the distance and subdue him before he could kill sarge.

Except he shot sarge anyways, hit sarge, CRITTED SARGE, and yet the lucky sonofabitch still survived. To give you an idea of just how lucky this NPC's rolls are, he survived with the CRIT that throws you several feet, rolling max distance to be safe from a follow up shot, then rolled a natural fucking 1 to untie himself. The GM (who has been trying to kill this guy since the first session) just shook his head in amazement and said "sarge stands up as a free action and immediately starts disarming bombs".

Which he of course passed with ease. Sarge's story is a truly incredible one. The GM and I are working on typing it up one day, just haven't had the time yet. I've posted stories in the past. The more random bullshit rolls, the more likely it's sarge.

>>52105625
also I'm making myself sound more badass than I really am. I would've taken the shot regardless, but it didn't hurt that the pysker threw the BBEG's aim off with a psychic talent right before I took the shot.

The best part being every time he's passed a power, I've either never noticed or had a plausible reason to think it's coincidence. For example, IC I'm probably going to think that the BBEG's arm being popped up was because I'm just hit him in the head and not because of some outside help.

The Blueblood is a bit of an asshole.

>>52101299
I don't mind cheating in principle, but I really don't like cheating and getting PCs killed.

>>52101299
We had a fight like that, and it sucked pretty big time. It's probably all about how transparent you are as a GM when you do that, because we just got annihilated by a dude with gazillion-and-half hit points in a game where even a small amount of damage can be extremely lethal.

Maybe it's just because I have been a forever-GM for a long time, but I really easily just noticed that our GM didn't track HP in any way, and it just kind of killed it for me. It resulted in one player death, and it felt really cheap.

>>52102351
It's treason then.

>>52101129

I found that the best way to dissuade that sort of behavior in the first place is to just let the players, not the characters, reap the benefits of their optimized actions.

If the final fight against the BBEG stops short because the wizard cast a single spell, then fine that's the way the story ends. I show them all my notes about the multi-stage fight sequence that would have been the epic and thrilling conclusion to the year long campaign, with each stage tailored to give a different party member a chance to shine. Then I put them away, because we won't be using those now.

"That was the BBEG, so there really isn't any point in rolling for treasure. I give a brief epilogue on the game and that's it. That's the end of the campaign. I hope it was as fun for you as it was for me. That kind of frees up our evening, its not even 7 and dinner isn't ready yet. So I guess we play magic for the rest of the night? Oh, half of you didn't bring your decks. I guess that makes sense."

Trust me, it only takes one night of that for most people to realize that sometimes getting exactly what you thought you wanted is actually really fucking dull.

>>52105927
I think the wizard was perhaps expecting him to put up more of a fight.
Showing them the notes just makes you seem like a fuckhead. What do you want them to do, not attempt to kill him?

>>52101129
I just kind of skimmed the thread. Did anyone bother feeding OP a
>her
yet?

>>52105997
> I think the wizard was perhaps expecting him to put up more of a fight.
> "How dare you let the spell I cast actually succeed! Why are you making this so unfun?"

Don't do shit you don't want to see the consequences of.

If the guy you are hunting has sealed himself up in a fortress tower filled with traps and mercenaries, I won't stop you from casting fly and skipping right to the top of the tower to kill the guy. And it will probably be an easy fight, because that encounter was balanced around it coming at the end of a grueling gauntlet to wear you down which you didn't go through.

I had a clear setup for you. You skipped most of it on purpose. That's fine and I won't stop you, but that means we stop playing extra early tonight because I don't have anything else prepared. I figured this tower would probably take two sessions to do.

It was exactly as easy as you wanted it to be. You get the game you play. If you don't like the results of that, then don't do it next time.

>>52105927
Wouldn't that be the characters reaping the benefits, not the players?

>>52106094

I think the word benefits was supposed to be ironic there.

The post makes more sense if you read it as "benefits".

>>52101833
Cocaine smoking is fun, does that mean you should do it? In the middle of an RPG I thought it would be fun to get up and pull down my trousers and take a fat fucking shit all over the gaming table, burying my friend's miniatures under a torrent of fecal matter. That would have been amazingly fun! But did I do it? No. because "fun" is the reasoning of a fucking child. If you base whether or not you do something off of whether or not it is "fun" then you are a mental infant who is not fit to live in adult society.

Similarly, when you do things in an RPG because they are "fun" you are being a fucking asshole. "Well I'm going to destroy the believably of this campaign by letting Jonathan fly to the goddamn moon on his Jump check because he got a NATuRAL TWENTY and if anything else happens, well, that would be against the spirit of the game, which is to have FUN, right guys? Even if we are fucking over the entire story and destroying the point of playing an RPG, it's okay, because as long as we are having FUN with it, that makes it a good thing, right?"

That is what you sound like.

>>52106078
So the players have to arbitrarily have to limit themselves and always play by your rules?
>Hey wizard, why don't you just levitate us all up the tower?
>Sorry, I don't know if the GM is going to like that.

>>52106124
Meh, the feather boa pasta is much more well-written.

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>>52106151

More like "where is the fun in that?"

The GM isn't actually punishing his players for doing stuff. He doesn't magically summon lightning to zap the wizard out of the sky and force him back on the rails.

He is just letting their attempt to skip straight to the end succeed, letting the awkward silence sink in, and then asking "Can we all agree that was boring as fuck?"

>>52106196
Why give the wizard the ability to fly if he's going to be punished for using it? Why not just design the encounter in a way that flight isn't a valid solution? It annoys me that the most logical and safest way to proceed is being blocked off because of meta reasons.

>>52105927
>>52106078
Yeah you DEFINITELY want to punish and *outright guilt-trip* your players for doing a smart/sensible thing and hitting the villain as hard as possible.
That totally makes sense and won't have any sort of negative consequences on their behavior or your friendship. And it's not like providing your players with fun challenges scaled to their power level and creativity IS YOUR FUCKING JOB AS A DM, right?

>>52106071
No. Sorceresses make good BBEGs.

>>52106078
I'm sorry but that just sounds like bad DM'ing. If the guy can be knocked out in a single hit why isn't there any contingency plan in place? Even just the old "castle begins to collapse" trope would be better than nothing. Usually my DM seems to have one of two mind sets in mind

>It's a boss, but it isn't the end all final showdown. We could kill him with a toothpick round one for all the DM cares
>It is a final showdown, and there are certain contingencies in place to prevent us from just one shotting the guy.

I'm the guy from
>>52105625
>>52102944

The GM gave us a big showdown and everything, but he had several fail-safes in place that ensured it wasn't just a "kill the badman and you win" scenario. He also gave the guy a really nice refractor field that only burned out on a 1 (which it did) gave him a hostage we cared about, and had a dead man's switch set that we needed to disarm while fighting him. Honestly the most difficult part was keeping the NPC follower of sarge from tearing the BBEG a 3rd asshole before we had the charges disarmed. It got to the point that the stormtrooper was preparing herself to take a knife for the guy just so we wouldn't explode.

Also our GM loves true grit, seems to work really well for him in preventing encounters ending with a single shot.

Maybe make it where they need to take the guy alive or something, I don't know. I'm not a GM.

>>52105927
i can already see one of your players' next DM dealing with the results of your shit conditioning.
>Dude, for the third time, you had a Disintegrate spell! Why didn't you use it before the necromancer finished his ritual to become a Lich? Now he flew away, the entire village is in flames and your blacksmith friend's family is dead.
>i know you have a cool lich boss fight planned, i didn't want you to have to trash your notes
>WHAT?
>well yeah if i killed him before the ritual we would never see all the guy's moves and the final dungeon
>I'm the fucking DM! This isn't a video game, you don't need to stand around while your friends die so you can see all the attack patterns! I'll find a way to salvage them!
>oh... are you sure? when i disintegrated our previous dm's big bad he said that by our fault he'd have to trash all his stuff and showed us all the cool things we would never get to do and then stopped the session and since he had nothing else planned we switched to playing board games, it was kind of awkward
>[Screaming DM sounds]

>>52106124
>funisjustabuzzword

>>52106196
>>52106283
Then why are you rolling dice at all, faggot? You aren't. You're just using them as positive reinforcement for what you want. Oh you got critical-hitted at that climactic moment died? OH SHIT TIME TO FUDGE THAT ROLL. WE CAN'T HAVE ANYTHING THAT WOULD HURT SOMEONE'S FEELINGS HAPPENING! Yep time to delete it, how dare you let the campaign have a sad and un-fun ending. How dare that "epic climactic moment" actually turn out badly for once? Better fudge it so as to completely sap value from the tension and destroy anything special about when the characters DO succeed through luck and pure moxie.

You're not a good storyteller. You're not a good roleplayer. You're just a child who can't handle not getting what he wants.

If you can't even follow the rules the majority of the time, then what the fuck are you doing? Go play goddamn Cards Against Humanity or some shit. That's a game better befitting the kind of autistic ADHD edgelord garbage that you need to sustain yourself. What kind of fucking infant are you, that the only way you can justify what you are doing, is that it is "fun"??

>>52106271
Oh come on, you're basically saying "hey guys don't use your best attacks for the first three rounds to make this epic showdown more fun". Players can use their character abilities as they see fit, and the game world needs to deal with that.

>>52102944
My group had something like this happen with a demonic overlord that tried to open the gates of hell. In the end we didn't even learn his real name just the title he went as.

>>52106242
You're definitely looking at this the wrong way if you think letting a player kill the boss exactly as they intended is punishment. Plus you're implying that the encounter wasn't balanced, but it's not really the DMs fault that the player has or used an instant death spell. The alternative would be limiting players in their actions. The guilt trip is taking it too far, but it's hardly a punishment.

>>52106424

If anything, that GM's problem is he is following the rules too closely. He is letting the players do exactly what the systems lets them do WITHOUT fudging the dice or coming up with new shit on the fly in order to hold them back from their own success to keep things interesting.

>>52106124
> Doing things because it's fun is wrong
> Look at all these stupid examples of things that aren't fun
> Don't you feel stupid now you infant
Wow you're fucking retarded.

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>>52106222
It's not a punishment though, he's totally allowed to do it. Making things that actively prevent him from using his powers are ten times more bullshit than addressing the fact it's less fun when you skip dungeons.

I'd argue that the easy explanation here is: The wizard can't take the boss alone, so flying up and leaving the party behind is both stupid and a dick move.

>>52106614

What if he can cast fly on the whole party? Or cast fly on enough of them that they can carry the rest?

>>52106424
>Having fun makes you an autistic ADHD edgelord

>>52106559
>hold them back from their own success to keep things interesting.
This is the core of the argument that I dislike. If something works then it should work, and the game world should adapt to it afterwards. GM creating artificial difficulty in a ttrpg is just counterproductive to the fun.

>>52106630
I'd probably just have the bad guy see them coming and retreat into the middle floor of the tower. It's his tower right? Surely he knows where the traps and monsters are

>>52106630
Why not let him fly at certain parts
Also this guy is held up in a fortress so if they want to get to the highest tower they need to get by the thousands of archers, crossbowmen, and magi who will be throwing huge amounts of projectiles at them as they fly out in the open to the top which is a reasonable obstacle to face in that situation

>>52106630
Then why the party must be prevented flying in the first place?

>>52102408
I've just imagened this
> Typical overpowered melee BBEG
> Tons of grind
> Players level fighting feats
> Final battle is jew trading master challenge/poetry battle

>>52106124
>because as long as we are having FUN with it, that makes it a good thing, right?
Yes actually you autistic piece of shit. If a group of that guys run a fucking garbage ass game that lacks coherence or good writing, but they all enjoy themselves, then who are you to tell them they're doing it wrong?

>>52106658
Play 4e or 5e for a few sessions. Unless your GM fudges rules or rolls or bends them to actually challenge the players, they get mighty boring, mighty fucking quick.

>>52104092
I like you.

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>>52106124
My badwrongfun is better than your goodrightfun.

>>52106570
His problem is he's confused "fun" with "lolrandumb" or "le epic shenanigans" instead of just "being entertained and feeling like your time was well spent"

>>52101129
>The BBEG
>Singular
Well honestly if that's the story you are telling and it ends sometimes it's just better to let them win and let the current story come to an end.

>>52106530
Oh, I have no problem with letting the player instakill the boss. As a GM that's what I'd do. But after that my job is to IMPROVISE what happens next.

You know what's fine? Going "Oh man, sorry guys. I seriously didn't expect this and I'm going to need half an hour to come up with more plot" is fine. Then the player can have his moment of glory and I can refluff these notes to make a new boss with death resistance this time.

You know what's not fine? Smiling smugly, telling the players about everything you could have done if they hadn't been smart, spoiling them about your notes, and cancelling the game to "punish" and "teach" them.

Also:
-I would consider villain OHKO my fault. If I let a player get an instadeath spell I should be prepared for him or her casting it. If it's a player tool it's meant to be used.
-Sometimes it's okay to limit the players in their actions. Sometimes you have to act like an adult and admit you fucked up, OR tell your players their cool toys might not work sometimes. It's called game balance.
And it's totally a punishment, come on. This is the stick from the carrot-and-stick analogy, sized up and covered in spikes for clubbing the players' fun and enjoyment to death. You did a bad thing so you don't get to play tonight, losers! That's like, the ultimate tabletop gaming punishment.

>>52106630
To answer this question, you either plan for a flying party in advance, take a moment to plan new stuff if it comes up mid-game, or man up and take your players aside to tell them you fucked up by giving the wizard something this powerful. "Fly works but only when the DM has planned for it in advance" is anathema to the concepts at the very core of RPGs.

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>>52106773
I've heard of this MR.RAGE before, but I hadn't realized he was a cool dude with cool opinions.

>>52106714
And Gygax was a fucking cocksucker who didn't know shit. If he lived today he'd probably run FATE where everyone died in one hit. Killing off characters to make his erect peener feel big, was the only reason he DMed. You can tell this if you read his books, he got off on being all big and powerful because it was the only way he could feel good in his dead-end fucking job and life. He was a fucking awful Dungeon Master, the Tomb of Horrors should be enough evidence of that. Just stop. Just fucking stop. Nothing Gygax did is special, he was just in the right place at the right time. He invented D&D which is now unequivocally one of the shittiest RPGs out there, yet still survives due to brand recognition and hordes of normies and roasties who don't know any better because D&D is the only RPG they know of.

I'm sorry I shit on him, I hope I didn't hurt your feelings too much. But you said it yourself, standards change, and no one is going to tolerate this "lol I don't even roll dice or even have creature stats I just make up bullshit the whole session lololol." If I wanted a DM who made up bullshit the whole session I would play FATE.... or better yet, I would find another DM. You can get the fuck out. if you just want to cheat and be a general shithead to prove what a rebel you are, fine, but stay far the fuck away from anyone who actually enjoys RPGs. This whole "lol rule zero" has a caveat: if no one respects your fucking game, you just lost. Unless the whole idea was to get out of DMing in the first place, in which case just say you don't want to like a fucking adult. Don't do this bullshit. Do not be a bullshit DM. Because if you abuse Rule Zero, then it won't be there when you really need it. Because all your players will have left to play with a DM who actually runs the fucking game.

>>52106727
As a general rule the only edition of D&D I play is the OD&D one, but I don't see why the same principles wouldn't hold true to the latter editions. You have same characters and same players, the only difference is how big the numbers go.

>>52106124
If the spirit of the game is not "fun", then what is it?
You're going to list things like social interaction, telling a good story, personal challenge, artistic expression, catharsis, entertainment. But let me tell you, when anyone who isn't a fucking faggot like you uses the word "fun" they are including those things.
Meanwhile you're using the word as a stand in for meaningless, hedonistic, in-the-moment satisfaction of the basest impulses, pleasure in the most Freudian sense, and that's pretty fucking dishonest, you fucking faggot. FAGGOT.

>>52106854
>I only know what TV Trops and anecdotal evidence by hateful idiots who didn't actually know the man say
It's not that you shit on him, it's that you actually don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Tomb of Horrors was written specifically because his players wanted to see what an actual killer GM would be like. That you don't know that just shows how ignorant and wrongly opinionated you are.

Sorry you're such an easily triggered ignoramus, anon. Go take a nap maybe?

>>52106808
One of the few tripfags who didn't suck.

>>52106854
nobody is asking you to do shit, all i said was that if the players and DMs are having a good time then they're playing correctly.

System and exact methods of running are irrelevant, I don't even know where the fuck you jumped to Gygax. Add on top of that, you talk about "enjoying" rpgs, but apparently "fun" is wrong? You're getting hard as fuck to follow, maybe calm down a little and write out your thoughts like an adult instead of jumping to insults.

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>>52106808
I miss Mr. Rage.

>>52106858
It's because the rules and mechancis of 4e and 5e are so rigidly designed that you literally can mechanically plot out a linear progression from 1st to 20th/30th level and never actually face a challenging combat unless the GM deviates from the rules as written.

>>52106893
> Tomb of Horrors was SUPPOSED to be stupidly deadly. It wasn't something used at a home module for shits and giggles. It was like a crazy endgame bullshit dungeon to test how paranoid players were, and to kill people in tournament play. Please go away.

What, it was a test of skill? The only fucking test of skill in the module is "don't go inside." Bam. End of story. None of the module has any logic to it, it is entirely arbitrary bullshit meant for random "lololol you died" to give the DM a stiffy he can stroke while he rolls for damage on the last surviving character. It's not even an adventure module, it's just "haha rocks fall everyone dies." But I don't know why I am wasting time explaining this to you when you clearly haven't even read the module. Because if you had, you wou;dn't be defending it.

>>52106854
I really need to create a /tg/ thread bingo card here's what I have so far:

-Someone in thread is angry free space.
-Pathfinder Sucks
-Angry Autist Spergs a huge post no one will ever read except to laugh at how angry and stupid he is, and egg him on more.
-Have you tried not playing D&D?
-Someone uses the word Faggot.
-Strikefag shows up. Shills Strike(Why does he keep shilling Strike?)
-Someone uses the word Objectively to describe a Subjective opinion that's backed by a few facts he can repeat over and over again.
-Pasta is served.
-image in thread includes "Tumblr_inline_..." as part of filename.
-Someone posts their fetish.

Any more ideas?

>>52107011
These ones are more just 4chan in general and less /tg/ specific, but:

- Someone reacts to a legitimate point with greentext and a smug reaction image
- Someone posts a screencap from a very similar discussion/thread
- Someone is accused of same fagging
- "We have this thread everyday"
- "/thread this is a (thing only tangentially related to this topic) thread now"

>>52106975
No, it wasn't a test of skill. It was a "you guys really want me to do this? Okay, if you say so." And then they later turned it into a tournament module afterwards.

The whole point of the module was that it wasn't a module, it was a fucking ridiculous JOKE.

This explains a lot about your 'no fun allowed' diatribe.

>>52104092
I agree completely.

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>>52106962
(You) made an attempt

>>52107011
Calling someone a faggot is a time honored tradition

>>52107011
Frogposting.
Virtposting.
Pretending to be a rabid Imperial in a non-40k thread.
Calling magical realm on something entirely mundane.
"Muh".

Although,
>-image in thread includes "Tumblr_inline_..." as part of filename.
Nine times out of ten this just means whoever posted it just copied the image link off a Google search. It doesn't really mean anything, any more than the tell-tale 7-letter imgur filenames.

>>52107166
Exactly. Everyone's a faggot, it's just sometimes they're an awesome faggot like Freddy Mercury.

>>52102633
>I had the final boss of a campaign have her spells completely disabled for the entire fight with nowhere to go
I would be so bored if I was a player in that situation

>>52101861
thats what our paladin did to the corrupt (ex)leader of the order - the guy even surrendered

>>52102060
My character would only not dispense JUSTICE if she had to actually still hurt somebody.

Generally, villains hurt a lot of people before the party gets to them and put an end to their life. If this princess did the same, sacrificing people to bring her ancestors back it takes away from the whole thing when my character says
>Alright, let's take her in boys.
since she already committed multiple murders and even her royal blood won't save her from the gallows.

>>52106530
>You're definitely looking at this the wrong way if you think letting a player kill the boss exactly as they intended is punishment. The guilt trip is taking it too far, but it's hardly a punishment.
>>52106614
>It's not a punishment though, he's totally allowed to do it.
>InigoMontoya.jpg
I don't think you know what the word punishment means.

>>52106801
>And it's totally a punishment, come on. This is the stick from the carrot-and-stick analogy, sized up and covered in spikes for clubbing the players' fun and enjoyment to death. You did a bad thing so you don't get to play tonight, losers! That's like, the ultimate tabletop gaming punishment.
This.
This is also the classic punishment used in groups, I forget the specific term:
>Okay everyone! Since the wizard decided to cast his killer spell, the BBEG is immediately dead and now I don't have anything to run for you so we'll have to all eat brussel sprouts and do long division instead. Let's all thank the wizard!
>Thanks a lot wizard!

>>52107011
Let's see...
>sjw or /pol/ posting
Directing anon to another board
GURPS?
pedantic arguing over semantics
And of course, "OP is a faggot." would be the free space in the center.

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>>52105927
See kids? This is the kind of GM who does open rolling.

>>52102958
Ah yes. The "quantum ogre".
A great way to completely kill the immersion of any players and destroy any interest they might have on the campaign world.

People who dont realize why quantum ogre is a problem dont even realize that they're just telling a story to their players instead of playing a game.

Literally no different than railroading.

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>>52111241
>I spent an hour and a half coming up with this encounter that my players are going to love, since they all get to shine in it
>during the next sessions the party investigates a red herring because they think that it's important
>welp, time to scrap the encounter because a chump on the internet said that you should always plan for all eight directions the players can go to instead of making a few genuinely good encounters

You are a genius. Very good advice you have there.

>>52111371
Why give them the option to go east or west if their answer doesnt matter?

>>52111447
It's all a mind game. You need to give them the illusion that _you_ know What the fuck you're doing.

If you give them the impression that you don't know how the shit things are going to work out, they are not going to be impressed. They'll question your ability to GM.

Not only that, but you also have to keep the show moving: if you stop the game because you need to plan things, the players are going to get distracted. It kills immersion more than you think.
If, however, they *think* they are doing the right thing and they get the impression that you know what the shit you're doing and what to make out of any one situation. Then you get a good game.

Last but not least, you spent your time coming up with new ways of improving the game and make nice scenarios for the players: it's time to put all that time to good use and let the game flow without obstructions.

>>52107011
-"women and normies are ruining tabletop RPGs"

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>>52104092

>>52102393
>>52102393

This is the only answer. Only faggots (all of you, it seems) would be on her side. She is evil, probably killed people to get to this point and, had she succeeded, a lot more people would die. Bitch is evil, bitch needs to die.

>fucking neckbeards have no love in real life so they get attached to an evil bitch just because she's a little girl

>>52111827
agreed

>>52111575
>question ability to gm
Im sorry are you being paid to gm or something? Are they gonna fire you if you ever dare to show you might not be 100% prepared for everything they might do?

You and your players need to get one thing

The gm is not a professional enterteiner. You are all playing a game. It goes both ways. Your precious encounter is not that important that the players MUST see it.
But the players are NOT entitled to a perfect machine who never has to stop and think and must keep the game going at all costs.

>>52101129
>BBEG
>Losing
Never in my history of GM my players won anything

>>52101360
This isn't even a problem in D&D anymore.

File: 1872743758350.png (295KB, 450x452px) Image search: [Google]

295KB, 450x452px

>3.5
>playing an illusionist
>dm is kinda new
>we help out a dying wizard secure his books
>as a reward I get one free spell
>ohboy.jpg
>pick weird
>insta kill everything including some badass semi-BBEG warlord that had a huge bounty on him
>claim the bounty
>put me and the party up in the swankiest inn this side of the material plane
>live like kings for the remainder of the campaign
>mfw

>>52111970
>Are they gonna fire you if you ever dare to show you might not be 100% prepared for everything they might do?

Need I remind you that you are all for saying that GMs should always be 100% prepared for any path that the party might take? You are sending conflicting signals, get your head together.

>The gm is not a professional enterteiner.
I never said that he is, you are just strawmanning at this point.

>You are all playing a game.
No shit sherlock

>Your precious encounter is not that important that the players MUST see it.
You and I are very different. The main thing is that you value your time equal to nothing since you're content at throwing all planning to the wind when the group plans to do something completely different than what you expected. I *do* value my time which is why I am going to plan my next encounters to throw at the party instead of arguing with a contrarian.

>>52110579
>The specific term
Collective punishment? Scapegoating? Group shaming? Dogpiling?

>>52111241
There is nothing wrong with the quantum ogre as long as the GM uses it only in fitting situations and refluffs it appropriately, which is usually implied.

>>52111447
To establish a fork in the road as a landmark. Players will remember the choice better than going in a straight line. This has obvious uses when they're exploring a dungeon, but it will also work in other situations, like picking which weapon to save when escaping from the dungeon and ending up with the legendary thing instead of the worthless piece of metal, no matter what. If there was only one weapon and they didn't have to make a choice it would be less memorable.

It's also a good tool for getting your players where you want them while making it look natural. And who cares if whatever weapon they picked would become the magic one? Video games pull this shit all the time.
>But then it's not a REAL choice!
You're playing pretend. It's all about the illusion of choice. As long as the fake choice's results make sense, looks real enough and resists prodding, and as long as you know what the players get when they come back for the second chest, suspension of disbelief isn't broken. Just don't tell the players.

>>52101803
Dnd is also the most popular system by a fuckton, so of course youll see the most complaints about it, youll see the most everything about it. Plus everyone on tg can be pretty certain that everyone else on the board is familiar with its mechanics.

While I'm not going to argue 3.5 is a great system, I still feel like 3.5s goldenage was the goldenage of tbtrpg communities online, just because there was more unity.

>>52101167
Only one person ever bitches about the term bbeg, and it's probably always you.

>>52112108
>sending conflicting signals,
At no point did i say that you must be 100% prepared.
I said that doing the quantum encounter is the same as a railroad.

>throwing all planning to the wind when the group plans to do something completely different than what you expected.

>i spent time on it so the players better follow my script

Relevant quote:
>Next time you play, look around you - those are actual human beings, not fleshy shells destined to act out what happens next in your fantasy.

Live a little my man. Sometimes the best moments of a game happen when the players completely ruin the gms plans.

>>52112196
>suspension of disbelief isnt broken
You underestimate your players if you think they're never able to tell when they're on disguised rails.

Theres nothing wrong with a linear game. Just be upfront about it. Giving fake choices is the fastest way to make your players stop giving a shit when you have them take real choices.

>>52112332
If your players have an easy time telling quantum ogres from regular preplanned stuff then you need to get better at GMing.
And if your players hate that but are too embarrassed to engage in good old communication between adults and bring it up, you need better players.

There is also nothing wrong with a railroad as long as it's convincing enough. Shit is like fudging a roll. You can't do it ALL the time because as time passes it gets increasingly hard for the world to seem coherent in its randomness. But you can do it every now and then as long as you can hide it well.

>>52101129
This is why I can't play dark souls.
Sure, I can git gud all day, and kill the bosses.
But... I don't want to. I feel really bad about killing like a full three fourths of them.

How do I git gud at hardening my heart?

>>52112421
Its something that should be avoided. Quantum ogre and this
>fights last however long i feel they need to last and nothing the players do will change shit

Is essentially treating the players like an audience, regardless of how well you do it.

>>52111827
>because she's a little girl
Nah, grown men crying would have gotten my pity too. It's less a gender thing and more a "the thing i have context for here is a humanizing moment and a statement that they're the bad guy"

>>52112487
>>52112421
man fuck that, I've put work into my quantum ogres and the players love them.

The secret is having multiple simultaneous encounter tables.

You roll one for species, another sub table for activity and a third sub table for mood.

you find a group of trolls. They are... having an argument. The argument is... about how they are not sure what a tax is, and are thus baffled about what to do with the taxman.

Some of them work good, some are stinkers, and it's great.

>>52111827
man, I didn't even read the prompt and I can tell you're shadow the edgehog.

>>52112536
>encounter tables.
Are by definition
Not
Quantum ogres

Quantum ogre is when you make a "precious" encounter and can't stand the idea that it might not be used
So regardless of where the pcs go, or how well they sneak, whether flying, walking, or on horseback, they will always be ambushed by quantum ogres.

The idea that regardless of what the players do, they cant avoid that one encounter.

It happens to every dm but its something you should avoid doing.

>>52112605
well, if that's quantum ogres, then they should be used liberally.
I thought you meant ogres determined by random chance, not slotting of setpieces in where you can fit 'em.

>>52105927
What a passive aggressive cunt.

>>52105927
I am obligated to make the attempt to kill the character in game if you set the villain up right.

>>52112633
>slotting of setpieces
Thats not it either
Just google it

>>52112743
anon, an encounter is a set piece.
You are literally describing slotting set pieces in where you can regardless of if the players dodge it somehow.

>>52112758
The fundamental thing about the quantum ogre is that it removes player agency.

If you slot in an encounter or setpiece and the players avoid it due to their decisions or character abilities having the setpiece happen anyway is essentally making their decisions meaningless

Theyre just puppets in your plot.

This is why i say "avoid doing it". Its fine once in a while but its not something that should always be done.

>>52112758
This.
"Quantum Ogre" sounds whole lot like a term created by a player and not a GM, because a GM has expressed license to put challenges before the players, even if the players BELIEVE they have found a way to circumvent it.
Quantum Ogres can't exist unless the GM fully admits to the situation, because unless the GM says it is so, then no one save the GM has a true idea why it happened, only suspicions.

>>52112917
If the players don't know they avoided it, then it's fine.
You should do it all the time.

>>52112947
>>52112925
>>52112917
As a player, it's fine even if we know we avoided it.
This entire problem is someone complaining about nothing.

>>52112947
>>52112925
>Next time you play, look around you - those are actual human beings, not fleshy shells destined to act out what happens next in your fantasy.

>>52112917
>the players avoid it due to their decisions or character abilities
How do the players actually know if they avoided it or not, anon, unless the GM tells them that they have?
If the encounter does happen, the logical assumption the players make is that there was an avenue not covered, or perhaps they simply didn't roll well enough, all plausible explanations unless you don't trust the GM to run a good game.
Hell, your entire post, and the concept, hedges on mistrust, inability to believe the GM will run their game wisely and satisfactorily.

>>52112978
>I don't actually give a shit about game design or producing a fun game for my fellow players: the post

>>52112978
>not fleshy shells destined to act out what happens next in your fantasy
>>52112995
>your entire post, and the concept, hedges on mistrust, inability to believe the GM will run their game wisely and satisfactorily.
And we cleave to the rotten heart of the entire discussion.
When you need to suspect your GM, there is something wrong with you, or something wrong with the game, and if the only one who suspects the GM is you, then you should be forthright and leave the game before you shit it up for others.

>>52105927
Alternatively don't create a character, staple a sign saying 'KILL ME PCs' to its forehead then put it in front of the PCs unless you want the PCs to try their damnedest to kill it.

It's not their fault you planned le one winged angel multiple stage fight with a villain too floppy to survive a single missed save.

>>52112995
The gm knows. Why even play an rpg if you dont care about input from the players? If the decisions they make are meanigless?

Also
The playets will notice if you abuse it. And that absolutely will kill immersion.

>>52113076
You appear to have fundamental problems with your socialization resulting in a lack of trust and a generally argumentative nature.
I can only conclude that you do not actually participate in games, and are only here to come up with theatre of the mind problems that never actually occur.

>>52113076
>If the decisions they make are meanigless?
Absolutes are killing your argument, anon.
>The playets will notice if you abuse it
No, they won't, actually. You are assuming players are trying to intellectually dissect the game, rather than play to have fun. Or >>52113104, really.
>>52113053
It's more that a lot of games don't give "silver bullets" to pcs of such magnitude as to render a foe immaterial with the same ease of use as 3.pf.
In no other edition of D&D is that kind of ease and level of power at the player' fingertips for a reason.

>>52104092
Well put.

Also I think players catch on when the DM is fudging everything, which decreases suspense and negatively impacts emotional investment in the game.

>>52113027
>inability to believe the GM will run their game wisely and satisfactorily.

The very idea that its all on the gm to tell where the game goes and that it will be fun as if the players are at a theme park tour is dumb

I thought the rise of storygames like fate and shit would have reminded people again that player input is important too.

When did "its fine if you railroad as long as the players dont notice" become the popular opinion here?

>>52113170
Nah, it's fine for GMs to fudge. I say this as a player.
Everyone I know realizes RPG systems are written too poorly to actually work as written, and are more like guidelines.

>>52101129
>implying the campaign ends with the bbeg's death
>implying the campaign ever really ends at all

>>52113201
Around the time you started complaining about things that nobody cares about specifically to start arguments.

>>52101360
>prince fails against one of 60 save or get fucked disciplines

Oh look, you should shut the fuck up.

>>52113208
>RPG systems are written too poorly to actually work as written,

Thanks 3e for ruining an entire generation of players.

Pls tell me what about fate or gurps need fudging due to not working as written

>>52113244
>3e
Or gurps.
or shadowrun.
Or fantasy lands.
Or fate.
Every RPG system is poorly written in ways that will come out during the game.

>>52113244
Actually that applies to literally every edition of D&D.

>52113244
>Thanks 3e for ruining an entire generation of players.
You know the entire premise of rpgs before 3e was all about the GM running games based on their own judgment, following the guidelines and themes of the game they were playing, right? That 3e was the first game to plunk down rules and forge this idea that the GM was beholden to them alongside the players?
At this point, you are fishing for yous, and you will receive no more from me.

>>52113223
>nobody cares
>entire thread about it
If people did not care this thread would not have been made.

The quantum ogre thing is fundamentally the same discussion as whether its okay to let the bbeg die on a save or die or just fudge all fights

>>52113306
The... thread is not about that, anon.
The only part about the thread about that is everyone telling you that you are retarded.

>>52113259
>Pls tell me what about fate or gurps need fudging due to not working as written

>>52113316
well, we rolled up characters of the same powerlevel, and the robot outpowered the chem guy in literally every one of his specializations and everything else.

>>52113312
There is a ton of post about fudging fights m8

Im replying to them saying i disagree. Is that not okay? All dissenting opinion is not allowed now?

Im okay with people disagreeing with me. However people seem to take the idea of not being okay with fudging entire encounter as haram

Like a few years ago this was not an uncommon opinion.

>>52113384
So, the other guy was right, you've given up on trying to make yourself seem legitimate, and have fallen back on "I have the right to an opinion" for yous.
Well, it was nice talking to you and your made-for-argument's-sake persona.

>>52113417
I dont get what part of my posts were inflamatory enough to be trolling.

>>52113284
my point is not
>always follow rules
Thats dumb.
My point is that not all rpgs are badly written. Plenty of them work fine if you follow the rules.

The idea that literally every single rpg is so broken its impossible to use them as written is ridiculous.

>>52113464
he fact that you keep making absolute statements out of non-absolute statements like over here
>>52113524

>>52113549
How is
>RPG systems are written too poorly to actually work as written,
Not an absolute statement

>>52113549
That's not an absolute statement, you dogfucker.

>>52113587
Where you take "doesn't work" and turn it into "impossible."
Classic troll tech. Things like that probably tipped off anons.

>>52102007
>>52101158
>>52101213
>muh story

If you don't want your NPCs to die unexpectedly, write a novel.

>>52113259
>w-well 3e may be shit b-but other games are also shit s-so it all evens out!

fucking 3eaboos

>>52113610
Some rpg system work as written.
Pls dont overuse fudging.
There. Those are my points.

Your idea that everyone is a troll is retarded.
Im off. Have fun thinking every dissenting opinion is a troll, im sure thats conductive to discussion on /tg/

>>52113687
>trolls a bit more before leaving

>>52113687
>some work as written
""""""""work""""""

>>52101903
>>52106071
yeah

>>52101533
>>52101585
>what, you're not playing the system that gives an official three strikes diam fiat rule to use for your pet villain when the player don't want to ride your rails? Clearly you're just a smug player of some inferior system and think it's the best and everything else is badwrongfun because you say so even though obviously the system I prefer is the best!

>>52106196
Why not just have the wizard start fleeing down the tower when he sees the party approaching?

The wizard/party is rewarded for their creative thinking by making them not have to go through the entire tower, plus the encounter is now a fun "get the fucker before he gets away" chase. You don't have to completely throw out your plans and the party (not to mention their GM) still has fun.

I think you're literally autistic

>>52103103
I don't know that I'd use the word awful, but I mostly agree with >>52103660

When a group agrees to use a system they are agreeing that they all want to abide by the rules of that system. While players understand and accept that circumstances not covered by those rules will be handled by the DM, anything that is covered by the rules of the system needs to be handled by the system. The only exceptions to this should be houserules that have been agreed upon by the whole group and RAI vs. RAW where applicable (and hopefully as agreed upon by the group).

If a spell says that it does a subtle thing, and a player is using that spell correctly and as intended, it is unfair for the GM to later inform the player that his spell actually didn't work as he thought it did unless such an interaction is covered in the rules or as an accepted houserule.

>>52107011
scratch faggot and objectively. those are more of an internet culture thing than /tg/. elf posting should be added, and something about 40k

>>52101803
It's a meaningless complaint though, and not even specific to D&D in this case.
Imagine if someone asked you "so my car engine died, any tips" and you say "lmao buy a plane".

>>52102719
>Having a pet is a lot of responsibility, you can't just seal it in an unbreakable bubble and call it a day
I had some shrimp that were like that, well, minus the unbreakable part. They lasted like 3 years, which is about a year longer than you'd expect them to last on average in an open system aquarium (they required brackish water to breed, so no proliferation).

Everything they needed for life, in balance, just give it 8 hours of light a day and keep it above 60 degrees.

>>52106124
What the fuck are you even doing on /tg/ - Traditional GAMES if you're not playing games? The definition of a game is something meant to provide entertainment aka fun.

>>52107011
Alignment shitflinging and discussions on morality.

>>52106706
>poetry battle
>implying that a BBEG vs Party Rap Battle where the players have to make up topical raps for their characters wouldn't be fucking baller
>the year of our lord 2017

nigga get serious

>>52112267
Not that anon.
It is my observation that you are a sad person.

>>52115283
I legit had to do that at one point in our campaign. Our good-aligned group got blocked on our way to meeting some tribe in a cave. The person manning the entrance wouldn't let us in without beating him in a rap contest

>>52115388
What?

Why is he a sad person because he thinks GM's having to improvise or occasionally admit they didn't plan for everything is alright, versus lying to players about how much agency they really have?

I'd rather my DM just be honest and say "wow I really did not see that coming, give me 5 minutes and we can continue" than have a laundry list of shit that'll happen no matter what

>>52101299
This is what i do with a lot of fights. Some of my players are munchkins and others are role-playing types or noobs, so i balance encounters to last a short but acceptable amount of time and if Minmax McGee is rolling insane levels of damage, well, i guess they're just really tough enemies.

The players are Agents. They must operate within the rules of the matrix. I, however, have Admin access and can change the rules as i see fit

>>52101377
>...not even realizing everything is going according to plan...
That's the best line I've read all evening.

>>52115657
The quantum ogre doesn't work that way.
If you shove shit into the game where it doesn't belong, such as a random EPIC LICH encounter in the middle of a road because your party refuses to actually go to the graveyard, that's stupid and the incorrect usage of the quantum ogre. However, let's say that you have a minotaur encounter planned. Your PCs are off to one of two cities, the cities are legitimately different, whatever. It doesn't matter which city they choose to go to - you shove the minotaur encounter on the way there because it makes sense anyway, and of course you add some other flavor on the way, whatever.
This, done well, is by definition completely indistinguishable from having a minotaur on one road and a king slime on the other, and having the party choose the minotaur road by sheer chance, because not choosing the king slime road means it may as well have never existed.
Furthermore the big idea of the quantum ogre is that 'as long as the players are having fun, improvising, fudging dice rolls, and so on should be acceptable because the point is that you're telling a story and the players should enjoy playing as part of that story'. A railed campaign is utterly indistinguishable from a sandbox campaign with a DM who's somehow so omniscient as to have planned for literally every contingency.

>>52101680
>exposition

If a magician conjures up an iced cream and your hand passes right through it, the magician has not denied you the iced cream and he has not removed the iced cream, because the iced cream was an illusion the entire time.

>>52112917
>The fundamental thing about the quantum ogre is that it removes player agency.
Actually, it really doesn’t.

In any rpg, there are countless thing that the player has choice and agency over.
In the same rpg, there are countless thing that the player does not have choice and agency over.
The Quantum Ogre is the GM granting the player the illusion that something they did not have a choice over was something they did have a choice over.
No option was denied.
No choice was removed.
Nothing was removed.
An illusion was added.
Illusion of choice is a fundamental aspect of human enjoyment and delusion and it only makes sense for a GM to utilize it along with the other illusions they employ.

>>52112967
>This entire problem is someone complaining about nothing.
Truth.

>>52104960

Pretty sure they didn't mean that Aqua, because it wouldn't make any contextual sense. But in fairness, you wouldn't know that if you haven't played.

>>52105927

... This sounds unbelievably, wildly passive aggressive.

>>52116465
There's a thread here that proves just how shit quantum ogres is. >>52115909

>>52119748
memetic beings have little to do with quantum ogres, though. Your point is invalid.

>>52105927
This post is so astronomically wrong that I think I've become a better DM just by reading it

>>52115657
It would do you very good to actually read up on things before you start assuming shit, you know?

>>52112917
Anon, a quantum ogre is a tool. It's like HP/dice fudging. You can use it smartly every now and then and your game will run just as smoothly while you save planning time and establish a fork in the road to come back to later. Or you can be retarded and plop down the quantum ogre in places it doesn't fit, and doing it too often increases the chance of that happening.

There is nothing wrong -- NOTHING WRONG -- with a campaign that's a series of quantum encounters AS LONG AS they're elegant and not obnoxious. It's fine. Your players will not mind if going left leads them to the ogre's hideout and going right leads them back to the swamp on the surface where they fight a big and beefy swamp monster, as long as the other area is different. If for some reason they learn the ogre and swamp monster are the same monster? If they're mature, THEY STILL WON'T MIND. Because they still had the choice to run away, or engage, or sneak by, or roll diplomacy, and if they chose to fight they still had the choice of their fighting tactics.

The illusion of a fork in the road is simply an illusion that you're adding for landmark or worldbuilding purposes. It is not a removal of player agency any more than a straight corridor leading into an ogre's home is. Because player agency is not about whether you get to go right or left. It's about what you do when you get to your destination.

>>52112917
>argues about quantum ogres
>does not understand the first thing about quantum mechanics

Let me put it in terms that even you can understand
>exhibit A
>man goes down a road
>sees a hobo, doesn't care about him
>he is ambushed by a mugger he didn't know of

>exhibit B
>man goes down the road
>gives hobo some money, the hobo warns him about the mugger
>man goes there because he knows jewjitsu and beats up the mugger because he was warned

>exhibit C
>man goes down the road
>gives hobo some money, the hobo warns him about the mugger
>man takes the long way around to avoid the mugger and instead encounters a childhood friend

Repeat after me:
>quantum ogres are there depending on wheter you look or not!
>once you know they're there, you can go another way

As long as the characters don't know about the quantum creature you are putting there, you are absolutely fine. This is why it's good to plan three-four encounters well instead of only one encounter exceptionally well, so you can do things like in the example C and B.

I hope that this got through your haze of randomly rolled encounter tables.

>>52116049
Literally this. If the players didn't pick the other option, the other option retroactively never existed.

>>52119748
This has nothing to do with quantum ogres though. It sounds like either a failure from the GM's part to properly communicate the consequences of the party's actions (leading to a bad ending that came out of left field) or a good old case of railroading.

"Okay but none of that shit you did mattered" is railroading. Implied-"Okay but whether you went left or right didn't matter" is quantum ogre, and it's okay because whether you go left or right is a meaningless decision in the grand scheme of things and it can be invalidated no biggie.

>>52119748
>There's a thread here that proves just how shit quantum ogres is.
That thread addresses the issue of "how shit quantum ogres is" as much as it does the nature of quality hedge trimmers.
Are you feeling unwell anon?
Or is this your typical level of coherence?

>>52120485
fuck off idiot

>>52121132
>fuck off idiot
So, your typical level of coherence then?

>>52103660
I understand that it does sound like a bad idea, but that is because it needs some more context. The players are a bit murderous, so when they figure out the BBEG is doing stuff that doesn't align with what suits their needs, they are gonna do their damnedest to massacre her. The moment this happens, she springs the cards on them, and they take temporary loss of abilities, as well as shit stats. Now without worry of getting murder-hoboed, she can do her speech. This is made even better by the fact that some of the sessionly tasks I give to get the cards are down a darker path, and will allow the villain a 'Not so different' point during the speech.

The cards aren't destroyed, just are sort of shock collars if they mess with her. I have been giving some certain clues throughout the entire thing so far, and it'll make the reveal even better.

>>52101299

That would, if it was known to me, subtract every percentage of enjoyment in the game for me. Retroactively as well.

>>52121338
Well yeah, that's because your GM is trash and you are also trash

>>52114387
Fair points, and I agree with you for the most part. But, some context is needed. I didn't make it so that the spell failed. The BBEG is just not technically evil. BBEG is chaotic perhaps, but not evil. Besides, my players haven't really had much challenge before. Many of the 'boss fights' they had in another DM's campaign awhile ago were either

A. >Supposed tough guys that got raped by the party with no effort.

Or

B. >Edgelords who are unstopable, until of course the convenient NPC of the week totally shows us up and defeats the boss without so much as a sweat.

The DM who did that has gotten somewhat better, and is even a player in the current campaign I am running. I will go on to say that the experience inspired me to make an actually good villain, and not some underdeveloped trash that is just fodder for xp. The heroes won't forget what I have got in store, and that is in a good way.

>>52102453
I'd not necessarily be so mechanically inclined, but she's evil. She was going to fuck over a bunch of people. Just because she tripped, that doesn't make her so very adorable. She knew the score when she decided to do this. Her resolve was set. If the loot mindset bugs you, that's fair, but not suddenly caring for this person isn't even kind of shocking.

>>52101129
Back in my day, BBEGs had protection to basically everything but damage. Simple, good old damage.

>>52121601
Shut up idiot

>>52121471
Ahh, that sounds much better.

With chaotic villains you have to be very careful though. First of all, to write a good chaotic character means that the character should more or less disregard standard notions of tradition, honor, and/or the laws of the land in favor of what they want to do. That's not to say that they'll all be honorless lying dickbags, but that they'll see those things as suggestions on how to act sometimes at best. Making a chaotic character a villain without being evil is hard to do unless the party is upholding law, order, freedom and the American way.

Second, be prepared for some or all of your party to join the villain once they understand her goals and motives. If she isn't chaotic evil then she's either neutral (doing what she does for some form of gain for herself or a very small community without wanting to harm innocents, but possibly willing to) or good (doing what she does as the most expedient way of achieving a better world for a community). "The ends justify the means" is how most chaotic villains end up playing out, and the players that agree with that sentiment will likely want to join to villain if she is relatable.

>>52121570
But is she irredeemable?

>>52101129
I've gone from
>Cheating is gay because the rules are the rules

to

>cheatings fine because the plot should feel dramatic

to

>I think cheating is bad because we're playing an interactive story.

If you just fudge HP on a boss, or fudge saves, or fudge crits against the PC's, or use GM knowledge to fuck shit up, it feels wrong. It seems fine for a little bit because you can keep up the illusion for a small pace. However ultimately I don't believe you can run a consistent campaign with that type of relationship and not have it feel like your railroading the PC's or without it feeling like you're just jerking off the PC's masturbatory game.

There is literally no downside to playing the world straight. If a PC bitches because his character died in a non-Dramatic way you just need to keep doing what your doing. He'll eventually either see that your running a straight game and love that he's playing in a real interactive story with real decisions and real consequences or he'll fuck off and masturbate in someone else's game.

If the DM is fudging HP, whatever you do as a player literally doesn't matter, you might as well be a placeholder, because whenever a decision you make doesn't feel "dramatic" its getting fudged away. That's fucking wrong, its a shit way to DM, everyone's telling a story together.

>>52111827
>Hur dur my job as a paladin is to be THE PUNISHER, its not to defend, kindle, and represent the light in the world wherever it can be found.

I want newfag paladins to die.

>is she a threat NOW
>are innocents in danger NOW
>is she an armed and resistant enemy NOW

A Paladin doesn't settle scores.
A Paladin gives the chance of redemption and accepts the responsibility of the consequences of this choice. Letting her live could hurt innocents in the future, but a Paladin doesn't tale the choice of "well we better kill her now JUST TO BE SURE", a Paladin offers redemption, tries to kindle kindness and good in people, and takes the added responsibility of stopping the evil he let go before innocents are hurt.

A Paladin strives for situations that are idealistic, the best of both worlds, because a Paladin must be perfection. A Paladin is the chosen, champion of the light, a Paladin must act with the faith that he will not fail because he was chosen first hand by higher powers to be they're instrument.

>>52122681
Not to say Paladins can't be what you just described, but isn't that role more suited for the Cleric?

I always saw Paladins as the crusaders of the faith, going out into the world to smite evil where it hides and Clerics as the defenders of the faith, those charged with protecting the innocents from the evil nipping at them from just beyond the fire's light.

These roles of course often intersect, but just as a sword can be used to parry a blow and a shield can be used to strike that does not mean that a sword should focus on defense and a shield on offense.

>>52122681
>A Paladin is the chosen, champion of the light
Last night my groups paladin slaughtered 70 people because they were "villains". Activated a magical trap that blasted them all with lightning, just because ONE of them had previously stolen something minor from the party.
Some of them were murderers and thieves, true, but most of them were just smugglers and other minor baddies with no real track record in being a legit evil person.
It was 5e tho' and he was an oath of vengeance paladin so I can't really directly punish him for that. It's going to have repercussions for sure but that'll only come up much later

>>52101129
>Having a definitive BBEG instead of regional threats and issues that can be resolved with or without violence.

You have to unrailroad my dude, tis the only way to end your cycle of suffering.

>>52122796
The way I see it is more like this.

A cleric spreads the word of god, is a servant of the church, and a conduit of divine magic. He eradicates evil because its what his god wants him to do. He spreads the good word because its his duty to his faith and the command of his church. He believes in the holy word and lives by it, which generally means he is a good and kind hearted servant of the light.

A paladin is above the written word, or the church. The paladin doesn't see the battle of deities in the same way that a cleric does, or the ebb and planar touches of divine magic. The paladin feels, sees, and is a metaphorical and physical champion of the battle of the dark against the light. He does do good to spread the word of god. He does good because he must be good, because he is the focal light that all other divine servants look towards to be the spark of light that stands against the dark.

A paladin doesn't follow his code because his church commands it. He follows his code because he must remain pure in conviction and purpose. He is the light. (both mechanically and dramatically) his actions affect his party, the npc's he meets, and anything he touches in the world to influence them either towards a growing shadow, or a defiant and growing light.

Paladins have divine smite.

But Paladins also have
>Lay on Hands
>Aura of Good
>Aura of Protection
>Aura of Courage
>Detect Evil

Pretty much when you're a Paladin all eye's are on you, and how you make your decisions has vast and dramatic cosmic and corporeal repercussions, because you aren't just a channeler of divine energy. You are a being of divine energy which is why you don't need holy symbols or anything. For a Paladin DIVINE MAGIC COME FROM WITHIN.

>>52122932
I see Paladins as people who were chosen by a god, while clerics are people who choose to dedicate themselves to a god.

>>52101236
>Cuck edition worse than pf
>Reasonable

>>52124175
>cuck
Nice buzzword. Do you have any real arguments, or are you just going to continue to shitpost?

>>52102935
and how after 20 years they still don't know how to make a fucking index.

>>52101129
>rolling for your bbeg outside of her last moments in the game.
why?

>>52127060
>necroing a garbage thread

Why?

>>52127086
fun

>>52122512
>my type of fun is better than your type of fun
>stop having badwrongfun anon!
the post

>>52102264
I wish I had learned that much. I learned a lot, but it was a bit more...artsy fartsy. How to construct a proper story than what to do with certain characters.

>>52129727
>bump
Why? To what end?

>>52102351

And this is why I like being that asshole who plays cooperative LE in a good party.

>>52122932
I like how you paladin, anon.

>>52107011
Something /pol/ related?