/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>52048097
Challenges in many forms are supposed to happen, combat is one of them. Saying it's fine because lol combat is a non answer. If the PCs can't be threatened in any way the the game has no stakes and is worthless.

If I have to break the rules to fix the game. It's the game having issues and having innate problems stop acting like mage is perfect. It's not. It has one of the biggest flaws in the game. You have to restrict your players in order to make the game fun.

>>52048031
Of course there is. One just needs to make boosting Withstand and Counterspell viable alternatives in combat. That alone would make fights much more interesting.

>>52048033
>fights are quick and dirty
There is world of difference between "quick and dirty" and "first to cast wins".

>>52048097
Game can't be "not about the fighting" because of shitty mechanic. It's the other way around - shitty mechanic prevents game from being about those awesome things.

I liked Promethean's emphasis on the journey, both physical and spiritual. They kept it and also made it so you didn't have to skip town too quickly in the new edition.

Ignore
>>52048177
>>52048178


He just needs to go find a different game to play, and hopefully a new general/forum to shit in.

I've never played Requiem before so could I get a rule confirmation.

If I want to learn a discipline outside of clan starting I have to feed on someone outside of my clan?

Seems like it'll be rather hard to learn outside disciplines in a normal game.

>>52048253
Two separate people. Pretending a flaw doesn't exist only makes you look like a moron.

Ignore
>>52048253
, he clearly can't understand that people can like game and want to homerule it at the same time.

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>>52048103
Entropy magic in Ascension is pretty good. I think it should be called Fate (easier to tie Fate to Luck than Entropy to Luck).

>>52048018
Honest question: what exactly is wrong with M20 mechanically compared to earlier editions? I'm familiar with the faults of Ascension in general, but I haven't been able to piece together the M20 faults.

>>52048314
I think they understand fine, the problem is trying to crowd source the fucking house ruling to forums who like the game as is then complaining when people tell you no.

>>52048271
I thought it just takes more experience to learn other Disciplines.

Changelings. The sense of wonder.

Is Dark Archon the new Geckopirateship?

>>52048324
I wish people could learn, that when you ask "How to change X so I would get Y", then "who ever wants Y, Y is shit, you need to get used to X as it is" is not a fucking answer.

>>52048385
Who the hell is Geckopirateship?

>>52048385
The guy is either trolling or the most autistic motherfucker I've dealt with.

I refuse to believe anyone is that obstinate.

>>52048166
What level of power are your mages because the flaw exists at 4-5. When mastery is reached the game is just done. I'm not talking about artificially drawn out fights I'm talking about the fact that thematically if one of your PC masters mess with an enemy master and they don't have the same arcana that pc should just be erased from existence.

But doing that is a dick move you shouldn't do, so why should your PCs be able to instagib anyone? Yes it's not dnd and I don't want it to be. But something interesting is when something is varied. Mastery isn't interesting it's binary. Did I erase my target or did he erase me. Thats not a game.

>>52048392
This is not a place of understanding, this is a place of hate and MEMEs Get with the program scruby snowflake

>Mage SUPREME PIZZA

>>52048392
Go somewhere else then, because you aren't going to get the help you want here.

>>52048449
>>52048454
Well, then I'll just stay here and discuss it with >>52048177 >>52048437 because apparently he agrees with my vision and we could imagine something interesting together.

Crossover question so bare with me.

Why don't werewolves scale as well as vamps in 2e? I've never played a late game werewolf.

>>52048525

Mage > Werewolf > Vampire

>>52048483
lolMasters

Sorry that your favorite templates get shit on by old bearded men.

>>52048414
Some mega autistic woman on the Onyx forums, she used to argue with the devs a lot if memory serves.

>>52048483
I doubt it. None of your proposed alternatives and solutions have actually been interesting, instead ranging from nonsensical to hot garbage.

Do what you want though.

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>>52048449

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>>52048449
>Pizza Supremacy

>>52048321
It's biggest fault is nerfing Paradox. A successful cast only nets you one point of paradox and if you let it build past five, it stops doing damage and just inflicts a paradox effect. It completely broke the incentives for the player.

The vehicular combat rules make no sense and are statistically broken.

The correspondence rules are in vague generalities.

They made no effort to reconcile redundant backgrounds.

Crazy Uncle Phil will interrupt sections of rules for twenty pages of author tract.

>>52048613
Bullshit that's Pepperoni cuck

>>52048253
>He just needs to go find a different game to play, and hopefully a new general/forum to shit in.

Why? He brings good points that your famboyism makes you too blind to understand.

I think we can all agree that Hawaiian pizza is the jizz of Satan.

>>52048305
>Pretending a flaw doesn't exist only makes you look like a moron.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it a "flaw" in the game.

You really need to learn how to distinguish your personal opinion from proven fact.

If you want to change or house rule something, politely ask for assistance. When you complaint a game is "broken," and demand others help you "fix" it, don't be surprised when the responses are less than pleasant.

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>>52048634
I Awaken the Fridge Contents to fuck your pussy bitch ass werefag
>muh spirits

>>52048632
>Crazy Uncle Phil will interrupt sections of rules for twenty pages of author tract.

What? I love random culinary demands in rpg books.

>>52048674
>I think we can all agree that Hawaiian pizza is the jizz of Satan.

I bet Brucatto eats it every night.

>>52048704
>If you want to change or house rule something, politely ask for assistance.
Every time I politely ask for assistance, people are inpolitely respond with adhominems and "nothing is wrong, love it as it is" messages. So no, I won't ask you politely, because I don't give a shit about your opinion, just as you don't give a shit about mine.

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>>52048721
Take the knot and Die magefag

>>52048704
>If you want to change or house rule something, politely ask for assistance.

>>52048449
>This is not a place of understanding, this is a place of hate and MEMEs Get with the program scruby snowflake

>>52048385
>Is Dark Archon the new Geckopirateship?

Mrmdubois is that you? You inbreed ignorant motherfucker, you finally found out how to use another url that isn't the OPP forums, i am proud.

>>52048721
>I can now call the sacred hunt on the contents of my fridge
pls do, would be tight as fuck after plowing some mage boi puss

>>52048432
>The guy is either trolling or the most autistic motherfucker I've dealt with.
>I refuse to believe anyone is that obstinate.

What? Who and where?

>>52048773
I've received good amounts of constructive feedback for my houseruling and homebrew projects that I've posted here.

The problem isn't the location.

Okay, so once again: I don't like two Masters instadusting one other with Unmaking, or two Adepts instaturning one other into lawnchairs. But it is the situation now, because both kind of spells are Withstood. Potency of those spells grow up, but Withstand of target generally don't. What one can do about it to make mage duels actually interesting?

>>52048483
I've already said my fix lower potency and remove withstand and unmaking es abilities. Let mage armor have some effect in shields. Possibly increase paradox for greater spells but with reach it might be easier to just bump reach costs by one. You have to play around with it. My issue is more to the fact that masteries aren't interesting. When they fight first just kills you. When fighting spirits that shoukd be frightening they just make them a joke unless introduced to a spirit that just fucks them with no remorse or way to stop. The problem with mastery is that it's binary unless you cheat in enemies. That's not clever st imagination thats a bad system.

>>52048835
N o b o d y c a r e s

>>52048835

Lets analyse this, the problem is withstood doesn't escalate or that just a symptom?

>>52048867
I've been posting from my phone so sorry about the spelling errors.

>>52048754
Isn't that cultural appropiation?

>>52048883
I forgot about ES. ES always have an option of going around any amount of Withstood, so here is that as well.

>>52048835

Let's be realistic here, once you reach Master status magic-duels are going to be much too vicious and dangerous to be considered "epic"

when might be a good opportunity to have a non-pc wolfblooded experience their first change [especially one that is created by a dramatic failure on a lunacy check]?

>>52048935
So let's make them epic, goddammit, not argue about how it is impossible!

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>>52048632
So Paradox was harsher in previous editions? Good to know.

Just read through vehicular combat, you're absolutely right. No thank you.

I never thought Correspondence was vague, but idk why they let you use it for telekinesis when that's clearly Forces.

>>52048988
You can use it to teleport objects around.

Yeah, Paradox was better under Revised or Second Edition. Either edition has a good, working system. And it's just a rules update in M20. It's metaplot agnostic so there isn't really any in-story precedent for it.

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>>52049073
Teleporting objects makes sense, but in my mind that's always been completely different than telekinesis. Same basic result (I don't have to get up from the couch to get the remote), but fundamentally different.

I'll see how it was in Revised and 2nd, thanks!

>>52048799
I made this
>abominations of spirits can be made by Adepts

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>>52049162

>>52048943
sucking magecock
>Bite Down

>>52048674

Pineapple on the pizza is exactly as good as Mage riding unicycles.

That is to say, it's good as hell, to me.

>>52048762
>Every time I politely ask for assistance, people are inpolitely respond with adhominems and "nothing is wrong, love it as it is" messages. So no, I won't ask you politely, because I don't give a shit about your opinion, just as you don't give a shit about mine.

Is how you ask for assistance, that is the problem. If you put together a PDF detailing your rules changes instead of just coming and posting an ambiguous goal "make magic duels more interesting" people might be more inclined to help.....or not this is 4chan after all.

>>52048826
>I've received good amounts of constructive feedback for my houseruling and homebrew projects that I've posted here.
>The problem isn't the location.

What were your houseruling/homebrew about?

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DID SOMEBODY SAY UNICYCLE

>>52049440

Unicycles are tools of the Lie.

>>52049440

Oh hey, Objectively Best Piece of Mage Art, how you doing?

>>52049423
>What were your houseruling/homebrew about?
Some about making new Moros Legacies focused around the less explored aspects of Death and a way to play the game without Paths.

Every time I've brought them up I've gotten helpful replies, although some anons did try to debate about why I hate the Paths, even though I don't. I just made it clear to them that I think the Paths are fine and that I'm really just doing a fun project. I didn't come at them like I thought the Paths were flawed and that the game needed fixing.

>>52049259
but anon, eating mages is haram
...bullying mage boipucci on the other hand

>>52049259
Jokes on you, the dick is literally hard as steel. Enjoy your broken teeth.

>>52050136
The dick is also made of silver.

Instead of shitposting or rules lawyering, why not share stories about your games?

I have played exactly one session of WoD as a player; Changeling; escaping from my keeper and the Hedge along with my party mates. We got picked up by a Hunterheart changeling who served us ramen and started explaining things. Session ended just as he was explaining Fetches, to our horror.

>>52048943
some insight into this might be nice

>>52050136
>Steel V Werewolf
>can opener teeth
kek
Cosmic power, itty bitty torn dick

>>52050520
Too bad since the mage already raped the filthy dog's mind
Can't even consider the thought of biting down on his masters glorious penis.

Byzantine Black is a VTM Bloodlines fanfic. It's surprisingly good, and very long, focusing on the work of Ms. Woeburne, childe of Sebastian LaCroix, and aggressively bureaucratic middle manager.

And it has just earned my respect for devoting an entire, good chapter to the most respectable and noble officer of the law; Officer Chunk, best character in the whole of Bloodlines.

>>52050630

ok

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>nya! I cast STEEL COCK
>you take 5 lethal damage as they bite your cock off, roll initiative...

>>52048321
>>52048988
>>52049146
To be sure, M20 has some good features. Martial Arts rules being carried over from KotE, for example. The ground-up revision of Focus into Paradigm, style and instruments, optional alternative Technocratic spheres. Etc.

What burns my biscuits is the fact that there's a good to great game in there somewhere and Crazy Uncle Phil fucked it up.

Since you fuckers talked about it, I've started reading my copy of M20 again (already read the bits I wanted in the pdf when it was first available, so I've yet to read the full book I think).
And it really feels like there's Crazy Uncle Phil that interrupts for rambling every twenty or thirty pages, with the fabulous pic of him that's often posted here in mind, it's quite funny.
I'm still a bit mad the asshole whined about wordcount while making his crazy satyros sidebars.

I've heard that princess crosses with mage pretty well. Is there any truth to that?

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>>52050900
On the plus side, the book of secrets is apparently out of his hands now. Oh, another thing they left out. The list of common sphere effects from the previous editions. That had to be rolled into a second book called How Did You Do That? These two books are, apparently the overspill from M20 because we needed cybertech Verbena, Yogic Virtual Adepts, Phil's admonition to make a locally sourced, organic meal before the game because fuck pizza and the PC, sanitized tradition names.

>>52051174
No. Stop asking.

You're only reinforcing the Lie.

>>52050885
>What burns my biscuits is the fact that there's a good to great game in there somewhere and Crazy Uncle Phil fucked it up.

Indeed, i am currently making a 0 fluff all mechanic resume for chrod/forsaken for my players in spanish. Kinda wanna do the same to M20

>>52051190

Also the crazy goat left out sorcerers because of his magick supremacy

>>52051247
>sorcerers

You mean Mage lite?

>>52051174
What is princess, I keep hearing about it but no one ever has a tl;dr

>>52051423
sailor moon + depression

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>>52050454
Hrm. Well, this past session...
* New Prince took power, introduced himself, his new seneschal, and some replacement Primogen to court.
* Archon is in town somewhere, but no one can actually find him or get in touch with him.
* New Brujah and Malkavian showed up
* Local Caitiff got adopted officially as an Assamite
* Local Cam and Anarch Brujah are on the same side in fighting the Carthaginian Brujah (Brujah who are loyal to the recently-revivsed, infernalist Antediluvian Troile, and her lover Moloch). Ended up finding one amongst the Anarch Brujah, and killed him.
* Influence flying left, right and center again.
* Feeding Difficulty is no longer super high, and the curfew was removed.
* Lots of plotting.
* Cockroach Monster (Samsa Mocker breed) is dead finally.
* A Technology bane spirit got put into a security system for an Elysium by a Technomancer Assamite. This can only end in tears.

Attached is our in game newspaper from last game; someone a few threads ago asked me

>>52051631

That seems to miss the entire point of the senshi and most Princess fiction.

>>52050679
Mages are god and God is OMNIPOTENT Not impotent
Perfect Spherical Mages Orbit Moons so suck it werefags

>>52051631
So Madoka? Can you become a god? Does it have tier 4 play?

>>52051682
>* Cockroach Monster (Samsa Mocker breed) is dead finally.
Why would you kill that innocent creature?

>>52051682
Oh, and that 'fire in Colorado' article was the result of a PC investigating demons, getting onto the trail of Lucifer, and witnessing a throwdown between some Fallen and an Earthbound.

>>52051692
yeah that's the point. sailor moon IN the world of Darkness, not Exalted in modern days

>>52051706
Because it ate all the Nosferatu NPCs in town and has been generally a thorn in peoples' sides. They think it was a Niktuku that was there to kill the Nosferatu; the Nos were just convenient noms.

>>52051736
>ate all the Nosferatu
Sounds like it did you a favor cleaning up those filthy monsters. And that's how you repay it.

>>52051751
Oh, and it also killed and ate a Gangrel and a Malkavian.

What is the best tribe and why is is the Get of Fenris? And why do they make the best husbandos?

>>52051817
Werewolves do not make the best husbandos you fucking normie.

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>>52051817
>TFW when your Get of Fenris Husbando is a Bone Gnawer faking purebreed w/ a fetish and/or Totem.

>>52051817
>white
>aggressive assholes
>snow white purity
>German
cause they're german nazis?

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>>52048103
>Demon
I absolutely love the aesthetic established by some of the art, and the art in the newer books leans more into that aesthetic.

>>52051832
>Can kill vampfags
>Can be lawnchaired if they don't clean the rain gutters
>Yuge
Pretty ideal to me
>>52051835
Don't do this to me

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>>52051964
>The true face of a wolf lover.

>>52052043
Please no bully. Lesser beings need love from mages too.

>>52052148
This isn't charity work

Where muh mysteries

>>52051294

Yes, mage good

>>52051294
Doesn't it just give you static powers at a rating of 1-6 per path? Or did I miss something somewhere.

>>52052320
Sorcerer only goes up to 6, as does Werewolf and Mummy.

Only Mage and Vampire goes up tp 10.

>>52052360

They should have just given Mage 20 dots, I swear.
7 dots in certain Spheres already blows certain 10 dot Disciplines out of the water.

>>52052381
>7 dot Spheres better than 10 dot Disciplines

To make things even worse, you only need 6 dots in Prime to one-shot Caine, the father of all Disciplines, alongside Lilith of course, who is the mother.

I rather like the theory that Lilith is/was a primordial Verbena Archmage.

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>>52051692
Not really, its more of a real world application. What is a magical girl when you think about it?

She's a soldier who fights in an urban environment at least several times a week against monsters who could kill her and everyone she cares about. And she's a little kid, sixteen at the absolute oldest and usually far younger, Usagi was 14 Madoka was 14, and Nanoha was fucking NINE. Played straight its a pretty harsh concept.

Now put that in the World of Darkness with a "dying of the light" theme, and you can see why Princess is pretty depressing.

Not that any of that stops it from being quite possibly the most optimistic splat in the entire nWoD given there's more princesses every day [and those that die reincarnate], there powers have no negative side-effects or price, last forever, and are geared towards combat and social interaction.

Not to mention your millennia old leaders are all still alive [as ghosts, sort of] and you have a real shot of turning things around, if only everyone chips in.

>They're also stronger then vampires

>>52052450
What sort of powers do they have? How are they divided up/themed? Do they have x/y/z axis as other supernaturals? Path/Order/Legacy, Seeming/Court/Entitlement, etc

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>plebs discussing fansplats like they think they're canon

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>>52052488
The theme is Hope and the "Dying of the Light". Basically all Princesses [gender neutral is Noble] are people who "Blossom" because they experience a sudden surge of Hope and will to change the world. They do this by generating their power stat and power source by doing good deeds and helping people.

This lets them transform into their ideal self, which has a variety of Charms at its disposal which are powered by that stored goodness energy, usually things like social charms to get people to like you, or summoning weapons or armor unto your ideal self as well as a bunch of sorcery-esq utility powers like bags of holding or controlling the elements.

They are divided into factions based on which Queen they follow, the ghost [sort of] of the original rulers of "The Kingdom", which was a paradise that preceded recorded history. Each Queen is themed based on what they believe is the best way to spread Hope.

For example the Queen of Diamonds believes that logic and reason is the way, the Queen of Swords believes in punching every evil thing in the dick, and so on [they're all themed on playing cards].

Beside their Queen, they also have what amounts to a 'class', such as Champion or Seeker, based on their role in old Kingdom society. If a Princess dies, she reincarnates eventually.

>>52052520
>Stop liking the things I don't like
tg

>>52052748
>liking things that I dont like
Can you be any more of a faggot?

>>52052810
Well I'm sorry to hear you don't like sex anon. that's a real sad life to live, but it's ok Asexuality is covered under the LGBT banner. Wave your non freak flag high

>>52052848
Stop oppressing me shitlord.

>>52052520
Honestly man I'd welcome faggots posting animu and mango girls and talking about Princess: The Gynohpilia if it meant we'd get a break from all mage, all the time.

>mage supremacy

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What is the deal with all of this mage supremacy shit? I haven't played Mage, but I always thought the intent was that they were essentially glass cannons. They are mortals toying with powers far beyond their capabilities so even if they can turn vampires into lawnchairs there's little to keep them from getting torn in half by creatures of the night if they're unprepared.

>>52053042
Mage is about infinite power corrupting infinitely.

There is no comparison to any other WoD game because mages are meant to be ridiculously powerful, so they are inevitably destroyed by their own hubris. Even the least powerful mage can turn a vampire's life into ashes, ruin a werewolves' night, and fuck up a Demon's existence.

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>>52053042
Yes... but with a caveat.

While they're glass Cannon, they're glass rail cannon like Gustav and Big Bertha. While they're normal humans and can only soak bashing, the only way to take them is to take them by surprise. With the right spheres/Arcana and preparation, they go into any fight with the advantage.

>>52053101
>With the right spheres/Arcana and preparation, they go into any fight with the advantage.

This. Contingencies will always beat strength, speed and surprise attacks.
There's a damn good reason why Mages are hailed as the apex predators of the World of Darkness, both old and new.

Of course, Demons and Mummies are close behind them.
But then you got the Archmages, which butt heads with actual gods, up close and personal.

>>52053042
Mage, as written, is about magic being able to do anything if you get 3 successes.

Mages players try to defended this and talk about how mages are all powerful, ignoring the fact that nobody plays mage or allows mages in crossover games.

>>52053151
>3 successes

lolPraxis ES Unmaking "I kill you dead" spells of death and doom.

>>52053147
>There's a damn good reason why Mages are hailed as the apex predators of the World of Darkness, both old and new.

They barely get mentioned outside of their own lines, and rarely with respect. Vampire and Werewolf treat them as curiosities that aren't a meaningful threat.

>>52053201
>Vampires and Werewolf treat them as curiosities that aren't a meaningful threat.

Well, that's a no brainer. Mages do not want to linger in the spotlight for obvious reasons.
It's also one of their many advantages, when their enemies underestimate the capabilities of true magic.

>>52053151
>nobody plays mage
false
>or allows mages in crossover games
also false

>>52053201
Pretty sure he didn't mean hailed in-universe.

>>52053260
I never really read into it as mages being underestimated, but rather that most other supernatural creatures just believed that mages were stupid normies who didn't understand what they were dealing with. Even though you don't want to fuck with them it's known that they're only human and at some point are going to totally fuck themselves. For most mages I'd say that's a fair assessment.

>>52053201

The 1e stereotypes surrounding mages seem to disagree with your sentiment, not that splat stereotypes should account for much other than fluff and flavor.

My favorite is the Ventrue line
>"Do not try to understand their powers. You cannot. Do not use your powers upon them. Their revenge, should you fail, will be terrible. Their fears and desires, however, remain human — and so you can bend them to your will."

The Saboteurs in Descent (which is actually 2e)also had a rather good take on them.
>"Like Fort Knox: heavily defended, suicide to attack, and if you get in, I bet you’ll find the gold was sold off years ago."

>>52053384
You'd be a one dumb fucking supernatural/nightfolk if you assumed that you knew more (in-general) than a well learned mage.

It's not a fair assessment.

>>52053384
Ironically I imagine most Mages feel the same way about the other splats.

>>52053430

That's an understatement. Mages are the privileged asswipes of society.

>>52053439
>Mage Supremacy is now Mage Privilege
Fucking supernal shitlords

>>52053424
I was going to argue the point, but I think that >>52053430 is probably right. As a rule I think each splat generally thinks everyone else is retarded and in the end all of them are probably right.

>>52053090
>There is no comparison to any other WoD game because mages are meant to be ridiculously powerful, so they are inevitably destroyed by their own hubris.

How? If paradox is toothless. Other splats are underdogs against them,lack of preparation is more of an inconvenience than a death sentence and the only thing that can kill them is other mages then what?

What if, the PC never have a moment in which they reflect how much they got corrupted or they never get corrupted or just dont care because they dont adhere to that morality? Doesn't the game fall flat then?

>>52053403
Changelings are also wary about mages, and best avoid them.

>Carefully, carefully. Let them think you know something they don’t, or have something they want, and they’ll tear open every shadow looking for you

>There’s something about us that drives them nuts. Have you noticed it? Whatever it is that makes them look at us with more than idle curiosity, it can’t be good

>A little curiosity is flattering. A lot of curiosity isn’t just oppressive, it’s dangerous

Mages like to play with their fairy food.

>>52053613
Changelings can be made of anything! If you break through that thar Glamour you're looking at a mighty interesting living vivisection.

>>52053403
>>52053613

I wasn't too impressed with the evident lack of cross-splat stereotypes in second edition, but I can see why they excluded it.

>>52052874
LGBT is SJW not the "altright" Anon

Could we perhaps rename /CofD/ to /MtA/ instead?

These threads are fucked.

>>52053505
If the players never take time to reflect or whatever then I think you've either failed as an ST or you're deliberately running a different style of game. You have a whole stat to measure your wisdom and it's lost through hubris. The players are supposed to be punished for committing acts of hubris. If the PCs don't care then yes the game does fall flat because the whole theme of the game is having power and trying to not get corrupted by it or your pursuit of more power.

>>52053845

What if the mage doesnt want more power? I tend to play mages who just wanna live peacefully but people keep banging on their door.

>>52048103
I went to a use bookstore and picked up my first WoD dead tree product, The Hunters Hunted. Did I do good?

They also had the Sons of Ether traditionbook (1e IIRC) and WOD: Combat, are those any good?

>>52053990
The sons of ether books are all fun and pulpy.
WoD Combat is for playing with with a grid and miniatures. An interesting idea but I don't know anyone who's ever bothered. Urban fantasy minis aren't exactly common, even more so when you use the technocracy.

>>52053797
>Could we perhaps rename /CofD/ to /MtA/ instead?
>These threads are fucked.

I cant wait for Dracula to cancel awakening after he is done ruining OWoD. I gladly sacrifice Chrod for it.

Finally getting around to looking into WoD.

Where would you suggest a total newcomer to the setting begin?

>>52054122
Vampire

>>52054122
Beast

>>52054153
This. Beast is the best thing out of chronicles.

>>52054137
>>52054153
>>52054190
I only have myself to blame I guess, but a book name would be nice. There's a lot of weirdness going on at a glance.

>>52054122
Vampire is the easiest to wrap your head around both in terms of mechanics and setting.

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>VtM Anarch Game
>Playing world's most well adjusted Tzimisce
>Character has a 9 to 5 as the Mandarin Language Elvira with a TV show and everything.
>Gets hit on by everyone because muh fleshcrafting.
>OH NO! Noobie GM who just took over has let our twackiest player run an Abomination (A vampire werewolf)
>N00b GM also drops 100XP on us during a one year time skip because he is clinically fucking retarded.
>Player keeps hinting at how we should all get clear when he gets going
>OHFUCKNO.fangmark
>Quietly build her for extreme levels of violence
>Abomination player has to go back and redo all of his work in international law because Trump wins the presidency and everything he's been working on these last few years is useless because they were sure that Clinton was going to win so he leaves the game.
>Well, I put those four dots in Vicissitude, three in Potence and two in Celerity so I might as well use them!
>Collecting Sabbat Skulls like they're fucking Pokemon when not being a vampire who pretends to be a human who pretends to be a witch on TV

>>52054344
>Abomination player has to go back and redo all of his work in international law because Trump wins the presidency and everything he's been working on these last few years is useless because they were sure that Clinton was going to win so he leaves the game

Watching Clintonfags and the media get rekt during election night is never going to stop being funny.

>>52053982
Then you're not gonna rack up hubris and I guess you're doing alright. There's nothing wrong playing like that and I think the mechanics actually kind of encourage that. If you're not pursuing power and can't get corrupted so you're fine. You're only missing the point of the game if you're committing huge acts of hubris and then not reflecting and acting on them.

>>52053982
What sort of Obsessions do you use for those sorts of characters?

>>52054122
>>52054251
Yeah, there's a shitload of books and weirdness. As a serious answer look up Vampire: The Requiem and pick up the 2nd edition. The Vampire setting is straightforward and fairly familiar if you know anything about vampire media. The writing can be kind of weird and it spends a lot of time on setting and fluff before getting to mechanics in chapter 3 where it actually goes over character creation. I'm new and have just now been going over Vampire myself, but it's not too hard to figure out. If you just care about mechanics then it could be better to start looking at the book Chronicles of Darkness which is just the core book for the system and is intended for mortals, but I think the rules are distilled a little more clearly there and if you understand how to create a mortal you're over halfway to understanding the rest of books because each other supernatural creature is just a template added on top of that. There was a fairly recent shift into 2nd edition so some of the supplements will be out of date and reference old mechanics so don't panic if you see contradictory rules in older books. Also they were just memeing you about Beast, everyone hates it. Hope that helps.

>>52053042
They used to be then dave removed that weakness.

>>52054622
They used to be what?

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>>52054383
It was somewhat poetic but it left me as the baddest ass in the room. It also didn't help that this n00b was too lazy to make NPC's for himself and so farmed that out to us for two experience points per NPC that we made for him.

Guess who made all of his NPC's?

>>52054784
Glass canons I would guess.

>>52055573

DIE

>>52055573
samuel haight

>>52055573
Darth Vader

>>52055573
Baitfish wins.

He always wins...

In the end, we must all rise to take the bait... it's inevitable.

>>52055573
There's no winner, but there is a loser.

Us.

If DaveB swings by, can you learn a Legacy from investigating the Legacy's Temenos realm?

I imagine you would essentially be crafting your own Soul by yourself, with all the negatives which comes from that.
But would you be able to learn all the principles and concepts of that Legacy sufficient to join it by merely digging into the Temenos?

I really like the concept for a Mysterium practice of seeking out and cataloguing ancient Legacy realms in the Temenos. Or perhaps even the realms of lost Proximus dynasties, in the hope that the information contained within can help hunt down any unknowing descendants of that mystic line.

Astral Realms is a great book.

Has anyone here ever played a Hunter-turned-Vampire? Because I'm thinking our DM is going to do this to a few of us. Or maybe we're just paranoid as fuck.

>>52056512
Kill your DM, better safe than sorry.

Id rather Cain vs Archmage then Dark Archon's sad attempts into making Awakening something its not.

>>52056543
Who is that faggot, and what is he pretending?

>>52053424
WoD mages tend to be ignorant retards. It's where they get their powers.

If they question what they know and don't think they understand everything they can't change reaility by thinking they are right super hard.

Seriously, the first thing you do is define how magic works to you, because if you believe it it's right.

>>52048414
>>52048432
Fucking oppforumfags go back to your crazy cat lady forum and post about how gay and sick you are

>>52056569
Ignorance is based on Paradigm and the current Consensus, so your point doesn't really mean anything.

No one is right, no one is wrong.

>>52056543
>making Awakening something its not
I love how one faggot says something stupid, and everyone else is just start to sing that around. The only thing I want is for magic battles not to suck. How the fuck is that contrary to themes of Awakening?

>>52056677
>I love how one faggot says something stupid, and everyone else is just start to sing that around. The only thing I want is for magic battles not to suck. How the fuck is that contrary to themes of Awakening?
Magic battles don't suck. You are just an idiot, lack imagination, and a basic knowledge about how humans organize themselves.
I feel some of my brain cells die every time I see one of your posts, they are iditotic at a level that staggers believe.

>>52056697
Sorry, but they suck. They are literally "who shot first". And Duel Arcana is literally the most idiotic part of the game. Only braindead can claim that "attack, attack, attack" is somehow interesting and challenging.

>>52056722
Oh yeah, because CofD is well known for its intricate and rewarding combat system.

>>52056722
Haha thats how real life works. Why do you think Firearms outclass specialized melee builds in the same syste.

>>52056735
So you admit that battles in CofD suck in general (not just the magic battles), and then you... call me an idiot who lack imagination? Because I want a better system for that? You aren't braindead; I doubt that you had brain in the first place.

Dark Archon butthurt that both 4chan and OPP think he's shit.

>>52056756
>Haha thats how real life works
Given that we talk about magic - it's not the fucking argument. There is no reason for magic to work like that in a game. Except if you want for it to be shit.

>>52056536

What? Why?

>>52056813
Obviously he's a vampire.

>>52056761

The point is that CofD's system means that all forms of combat have a tendency to be pretty "rocket tag" in its implementation and the Duel Arcane is no different.

You won't make a "better" system without changing the entire nature of either the social combat in which it is based, or the physical combat should you wish the Duel Arcane to be based in that.

You don't use CofD for fights. It's not terrible for fights, but if you want a game with more dramatic wizard fights, either play out wizard duels as regular CofD combat with magic and just have the damage "not count", or just play a game with more interesting combat.

>>52056816
>You won't make a "better" system without changing the entire nature
You didn't tried to. You just say it's impossible, without stating why.

>either play out wizard duels as regular CofD combat with magic
That's what I am talking about, and it sucks, because instadusting and instalawnchairing. Withstand/Clash of Wills needs to be reworked and/or boosted.

>>52056847
You really are obstinate. Just admit that CofD is not for you rather than saying uts flawed by not conforming to you tastes.

>>52056847
>instadusting and instalawnchairing
Yeah, because all Mages are second-degree Adepts or Masters and can continuously risk the amount of Reach you need to make those feasible in combat, while your opponents can just simply and easily Counterspell or use Shielding.

Instant Cast, Sensory Range Unmaking is minimum 3 Paradox dice, which not initially difficult, gets worse and worse if you need to hit multiple enemies, or your first 2 attempts fail because you brush up against an Indefinite Shielding spell.

>>52056872
Can't you use Mana to mitigate Paradox?

>>52056847

Because the crunch medium, abstract nature of CofD inherently lends itself to what people call "rocket tag" game play. This is not necessarily a bad thing for what the game is, but for many people it can lead to combat that feels disappointing, especially if they're coming from combat heavy RPGs.

Your proposed ideas will not work like you want them to, no matter how much you change the numbers, because you are not changing the nature of the combat system in the game's engine itself. Eventually, it's going to come down to a war of attrition followed by a swift splat, magic or otherwise.

You either need to accept that you might as well start hacking the entire Storytelling system itself, or you can find a game with more dynamic combat.

>>52056962
>This is not necessarily a bad thing for what the game is, but for many people it can lead to combat that feels disappointing, especially if they're coming from combat heavy RPGs.

Well, that and the fact that WoD always tries to sell at least one of the groups in each splat as 'The combat guy' and people get kinda bitter when the find out how very situational a role that is/how rocket taggy it is.

>>52056955
Of course you can, but that's just mitigating the issue, not solving it.
And eventually your tanks may run dry.

You know Darck Archon, it's better if you ran Mage in a different system other than Storyteller

>>52056999
Seems pretty problem solving to me.

What kind of Obsession would a Wind/Sky/Flight Focus Based Obrimos have?

>>52057029
Then like so many in these threads, you seem to have only read about the game, and not played it.

If your GM isn't letting you have multiple days of downtime, then it can get really goddamn hard to get back Willpower, Mana, and heal resistant damage from Paradoxes.

>>52056872

You're making it sound a lot harder than the actuality of things.

>>52057005
>Yeah, because all Mages are second-degree Adepts or Masters
Much of them, yes. Adept aren't at all rare, and Masters are common.

>and can continuously risk the amount of Reach you need to make those feasible in combat
If you want to dust that sucker now and planned your combat and spells - why not?

>while your opponents can just simply and easily Counterspell or use Shielding
And here I understand that you don't understand shit about that you are talking. Counterspell is non-option in one-on-one duel - you just miss your turn, and opponent gets the chance to dust you. Sooner or later, he wins. Shielding will work only against it's own Arcana, so if you are a Life master and meet up Death master, your Indefinite Shielding is as much of use as paper bag.

>>52057097
was meant for
>>52056872

New monday meeting note, next week the Prince's Gambit KS will go live (a "casual card game by Justin Achilli).
It seems they've slowed down the rhythm of their KSs, I remember a time when they had a week before finishing one and starting the next.

Nautical/Mermaid themed Arcadia/Fey/Acanthus?

>>52057005
Not really. All I need is to houserule magic combat, that's all.

>>52057215
all your suggestions have been unanimously agreed to be bad in 2 fucking forums

>>52057232
I didn't suggested anything on OPP, you idiot. I only said that somebody needs to be done with Withstand/Clash of Wills, and people ignored that and started arguing about "themes of game".

>>52057280
you sure are touchy that nobody likes your ideas that only you hold

http://www.strawpoll.me/12480891/r

>>52057291
I don't really care. I just want a good houserule for my game which will allow players to have an interesting wizard battles.

>>52057330
it's like you want attention. Just fucking houserule your game no one cares about

>>52057341
Well, I do want to talk it and receive some interesting critique, not just "get out of the game if you don't like it!". For now I thinking of two variants:
1) Forbid bypassing Withstand with ES and boost Withstand by adding Gnosis/2;
2) Make Counterspell reflexive action for point of Mana.
3) Make Shielding practice protect not just from one Arcana.

>>52057330

You are not going to be able to do that, because of the very fundamentals of the base game engine. You're going to need to break things down to brass tacks if you want any meaningful change with any kind of combat.

I rather enjoy the quick and vicious nature of mage due-- Sorry, wild western shootouts.

It makes the setting a tad bit more realistic.

>>52057367
>>52057363

>>52057363
all retarded ideas as so many have told you. It changes nothing unless you just gut the entire CofD combat system. You are better off playing a different system

>>52057392
>It changes nothing
It changes everything. First of all, Masters can't just use ES. They have to boost their spells. And even if they manage to cast them, they can be just countered. Your cries about retardation mean nothing to me, and I am not going anywhere.

>>52057363
1 renders more powerful Mages literally untouchable by weaker ones
2 turns every fight into a "now roll your opposed check as well because that dude spends a point of mana, oh wait he's more powerful than you? perhaps you shouldn't have tried taking on the BBEG in the first place then?" which is unfun
3 is utterly retarded, against the point of Arcana, and also renders Mage v Mage conflicts horribly dull as instead of doing cool shit, you're trying to pop the other guy's bubble

Fuck that, play something else if you want your retarded, extended wizard-duels
Your changes do noting but cement the power of stronger Mages over weaker ones, and ensure that practically every single spell is accompanied by horribly boring Clash of Wills after Clash of Wills.

>>52057381

Right, none of this will actually work, and at best only delay the "instadusting".

1. The Gnosis increase is negligible in early game and eliminating the ES clause of Withstand only delays, not prevents.

2. You have only made the game even more of a war of attrition until splat than the system already is. Congratulations, you have created Exalted 2e.

3. Not only have you discouraged investing in other Arcana, it still only delays the inevitable.

>>52057416

It really changes nothing. Masters are going to boost their spells, and you're still dealing with a war of attrition until someone runs out and the other person splats them. The only difference is that you've extended the combat by two or three rounds.

There's no new sense of tactics, there's no swing of who gets the upper hand, all you've done is just push back the clock and hope that probability is kinder with the extended time.

Again, CofD's design lends itself to rocket taggy, sometimes "instadusting" combat. If you want to make any meaningful change on magical combat, you have to focus on the system that it is derived from, regular physical combat. You need to rebuild the entire combat engine, otherwise you're pushing numbers around.

>>52054122
Vampire: the Masquerade

>>52057448
>renders more powerful Mages literally untouchable by weaker ones
They are just as literally untouchable by weaker ones in the current rules, because there is no fucking way you can hurt them directly with their Mage Armor, and instapatterning isn't fun either.

>turns every fight into...
Don't see a problem with this one. Countering is going to burn your Mana rather quickly, and you need it in the fight for other spells and things.

>>52057484
>The only difference is that you've extended the combat by two or three rounds.
But that's that I wanted to do. I didn't want for battle to last forever, but I didn't wanted it to be done with literal first fucking spell.

>>52055573
Archmages can't remove the Mark.

How do you do Mage Armor as a spell, not attainment?

>>52057497
>But that's that I wanted to do.
So you've worked out how to do your houserule then? Great, objective achieved, there's the door.

>>52057553
You don't really expect me to leave, right? Because this is fucking laughable. I am regular here, you know, and going to stay. Besides, there is still other questions...

>>52057505

>what is Prime 6

>>52057562
>I am a regular here you know.

hahaha that really doesn't afford you anything

Dark Archon really IS the new Geckopirateship

>>52057562
Seems like you're in the running to take Aspel's spot.

Shadow names for Nautical Thyrsus?

Undine? Naiad?

>>52057497

Then you haven't actually created interesting combat, nor have you actually solved any of its problems. Again, at best, you've made Mage more like Exalted 2e combat which is nowhere near an improvement.

If that's fine for you, whatever, but don't talk about how it's an improvement for anyone else but you, or get so defensive when people naturally bristle at it.

>>52057562

There are no other questions. You need to play test the rules you've already created. Then you can ask more questions, when you know how your house rules work in an actual play scenario.

You are play testing your rules, right? Aspel never did, and now they're not around anymore cause they burned themselves out arguing instead of discussing.

>>52057606
or Tohouanon. I really don't know

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>>52057622

Nereid

Hey I'm new to world of darkness. What type of vampire bloodline fits this type of description best.

I want to be independent.
I don't want to live with other vampires and forget my humanity.
I find the idea of feeding on bloodpacks or willing slaves abhorrent. I accept that I'm a predator in the natural world and I don't see this as evil but I feel feeding on willing slaves or packaged blood will make me forget the humanity of survival, if you can blend into humanity and hunt on your own you don't deserve to live.

>>52057622
>Nemo
>Bermuda
>Jaws
>Neptune
>Orca
>Ahab
>Riptide
>Trident
>Oceanus

>>52057625
I'm not the same guy but, personally, the issue with combat isn't that it's fast. It's that the setting doesn't make sense. If mages can't protect against each other well than either all mages should either have prime or be reduced. Logically, in a magical war setting, this stalemate shouldn't exist. Anyone who attacks first automatically wins if they are a master. This is honestly the issue. It's not that mages are powerful as fuck they should be but confrontations while not drawn out should be a confrontation not a drive by assassination.

>>52057675
Gangrel my dude.

>>52057675
If you can't blend into humanity and hunt on your own you don't deserve to live.*

Also I don't want to settle down and become complacent.

>>52057625
>Then you haven't actually created interesting combat
"Interesting combat" is subjective. You seem to have contested rolls. I and my players love them. Any combat which you would like just wouldn't ring my bells, and via versa.

>You are play testing your rules, right?
Of course, with actual players in actual chronicle. You may look forward for the reports.

>>52057681
>If mages can't protect against each other well than either all mages should either have prime or be reduced.
This is actually a question for me, and I don't think that all mages who love to live should have at least Prime 1 for this exact reason.

>>52057675
Gangrel, in both WoD and CofD.

how specific are Yantras?

So we know that certain Yantras can only be used if they are symbolically related to the spell in question. I was wondering what if we are dealing with the same spell but the targets are different?
Example, my Thyrsus' Shadow name is Nereid(sea nymph) and I took a merit to allow to use it as a yantra. I now cast a spell to allow me to control an animal. My question is; would my Shadow Name Yantra only kick in for aquatic creatures even if the same spell can be used to control terrestrial creatures?

>>52057713
>You may look forward for the reports.
Will you still report them even if your "fixes" don't actually fix anything?

>>52057738
Of course. I want a working houserules for a cool wizard battles, not a "victory" in an internet argument.

Shadow Name: Atalanta

What is the best Path for a Mage with that Shadow Name?

>>52057758
If you're going for a pure waifu, you should be an Obrimos. Thyrsus are sluts.

>>52057758
Obrimos. You are going to need Prime to live with this kind of name.

>>52057749
Could have fooled me.

>>52057713

Simple contested rolls will not and will never be interesting combat, no matter it if it's one roll or twenty. CofD is not a game of any kind of interesting combat, because despite the size of the combat rules, it as a game is not particularly interested in it.

But you're play testing, so that's good either way.

>>52057681

Mages aren't always in active war. Seers and the Pentacle are in a magical Cold War, held back by magical MAD and the potential interventions of Archmages (if the setting additions of Imperial Mysteries matter to your game in some way).

That this is a tenuous peace at best is intentional. That it hasn't escalated into a full on Mage Oblivion scenario is because no one has yet to light the match and throw it. For that to happen, players need to interact with the game.

That the supernatural world might violently self destruct at any moment but hasn't yet is common in CofD.

>>52057775
Thyrsus can be pure waifus too.

Persephone was a waifu for Hades and she's pretty much Thyrsus embodyment

>>52057782
>Simple contested rolls will not and will never be interesting combat
Says you. I love the contested rolls, because it feels natural: he attacks, you defend, and via versa. I like Fate combat because of this, for example, though there is no interesting tactics in it.

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>>52057798
>Thyrsus can be pure waifus too.

>>52057782
No this isn't fucking exalted. Which at least has a setting that makes more sense with their powers. You can't make all mages magical nukes that can't even defend against each other with a flimsy reason as to why they haven't killed each other.

Like I have to play a low game chronicle because master chronicles don't work. That's an issue.

>>52057809
>Master Chronicles don't work
Patently false. It is your only your opinion

>>52057803
It actually isn't natural at all. It's artificial. You are literally just moving around mechanics to artificially extend combat. Natural fights are quick and dirty, and 9 times out of 10 are won before they even start.

>>52057816
You can make it work by cheating characters and fubbing powers. Which I have no problems in a personal setting. Objectively, that doesn't make the setting internally consistent.

>>52057809
You realize that flimsy reason is one that has a basis in real world history, right?

>>52057838
I didn't say it was natural, only that it feels natural. It's also more interesting. You may love combat there your character is dead before you can even touch your dice. I don't. It doesn't make a good story, or a game, or anything. Maybe it's realistic, sure, but I am not playing a game about fucking wizards for realism.

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>>52057687
>>52057721

So from a human standpoint whats a quick rundown of the vices and nobilities of the Gangrel. I just watched the gentlemans guide to the Gangrel and he made it sound like they were probably the least shitty clan to be a member of in terms of getting fucked over by other vampires.

Nobility
>Hate diablerie
>Independent, free willed, good relationship with their turners who raise them with free thought and independence
>Respect the cost of embracing the beast
Vice
>feral
>cruel, enjoy the hunt, play with their food etc
>if they aren't afraid of their beast, they're proud of it
>Aren't discrete and don't care if humanity sees them.

I didn't catch many of the vices associated with their clan. Are these right? Is there anything else I should know for roleplaying one well?

Sorry if this sounds kind of newfaggy but would pic related be a Gangrel?

Are there any other clans that the Gangrel get along with? Am I playing a Gangrel wrong if I look at humans as humans and not just prey?

>>52057803

"Create an Advantage" is still more tactically interesting than just hoping Withstand and Clash of Wills will delay the inevitable. Fate combat has an immense edge over CofD for that alone.

>>52057809
>>52057846

They haven't killed each other because the Chronicles of Darkness is a world where mutually assured destruction and higher forces combine to create a normalcy that appears like our world, with just enough cracks to drag otherwise "normal" people into it.

That's it. That's all someone needs to play a game in it. It can all fall apart at any moment and at any time, and that's to encourage players to yank on the levers and see what happens. The personal setting is all that matters, because the game is all that matters.

CofD isn't interested in achieving perfect setting consistency, and we can tell by how hard it tries to obfuscate a universal cosmology from players despite their every effort to create it.

For some, that's enough. You're not one of them, but that doesn't make that part of the game inherently unplayable. It just makes it not to your tastes.

>>52057872
That sounds about right, although you don't have to follow it to a T. There is no "wrong" way to play anything. Clans aren't rigid guidelines, more like foundations. You can play a Gangrel who likes to hold on to his humanity while simultaneously accepting his more bestial nature. Other Gangrels might not get your "life" choices though.

Now that I typed all of that out it kinda sounds like Werewolf.

>>52057890
Considering that I loved and plaued first edition and it was exactly the same with a weak enough skillset that it war was an actually mutual destruction rather than a he shot first and won, No the problem is that the powerlevel became too bullshit. This full frontal onslaught was an unnecessary poweshift.

>>52057868
>You may love combat there your character is dead before you can even touch your dice.
Literally never had this problem.

Probably because I'm not stupid enough to go head to head with mages that I know are stronger than my character.

>>52057890
>"Create an Advantage" is still more tactically interesting
And mage have a ton of spells which could create this advantage - if only he could live through the first hostile spell.

>>52057909
Mage conflicts are hardly ever one on one. Mutually assured destruction isn't "I shoot you at the same time you shoot me". It's "You've launched a nuke that destroyed part of my country, I'll launch all of my nukes back at you".

Also if you liked 1e just play that with the parts from 2e that you like thrown in.

>>52057922
Probably because your ST liked how you licked his ass and never ever made your character target of the stronger enemy. You don't always choose time and place. Sometimes, people choose that for you.

>>52057927
So where exactly are you getting all of this from? Mage combat in the games I've played rarely, if ever, had one-shot kills. I have a hard time believing that it's the huge problem you think it is.

Have you ever played Mage?

>>52057941
My problem is that 2e is constructed better but then went overboard at the end spectrum.

>>52057946
>Sometimes, people choose that for you.

Only if you fuck up, you should always strive for perfection anon.

>>52057961
Yes, I played it and I GMed it, and there is literally tons of encounters like "you open the door, get an Unmaking into the face, game over".

>>52057973
And players with GM tend to fuck up constantly, anon. Because they are people, and people fuck up.

>>52057946
My character has been the target of a stronger enemy. I just don't engage them in direct combat because I would lose, and they don't engage me in direct combat for various reasons as to why it isn't worth it and why they wouldn't get away with it. I also take measures to cover my tracks and keep myself safe, like a sane person.

Do Masters and Adepts in your games just run around smiting their opponents all willy-nilly?

>>52057981
Your a bad GM

>>52057981
It sounds like you've been in games with poorly structured narratives. Also why would you just blast your players' characters into oblivion? You said you aren't going for realism so why?

>>52057927

I'm talking about a very specific Fate mechanic there, not in the general sense. It's a comparison.

>>52057909

No, 1e was the game were fights took way too long with too little to do, and still boiled down to the same "shoot first and win" tactic after all that artificial length.

Was "reduce the number of turns until rocket tag" the best solution? Probably not, but given the design constraints amd IP issues, I can't blame them.

Stepping back towards the long fights of 1e without improving other aspects of the combat engine isn't much of a fix either, by the by.

>>52058003
>GM is bad because he's doing what the characters would logically do. With powers they logically have

>>52048103
I'm new to tabletop gaming and I'd like to ask a few questions about it.
What's the difference between larp and your regular table top session? Can I translate well to V:tM tabletop if I never played D&D, but get the jest of it?

Thanks in advance.

>>52058017

>I don't play for realism
>doing what characters would logically do with powers they logically have

Tactical realism is still playing a realistic game, Anon.

>>52058016
Perhaps they did last too long but at least an unprepared mage felt unprepared. Here they don't feel like there is any difference.

>>52058028
Larping is a bit weird it's roleplaying with acting. I personally have never done that but I have heard good and bad. Dnd and vtm play very different.

>>52058041
No. Realism and making every master a retard to make players not get gibed are two different things.

>>52058017
That sounds about right.

Your job is to provide a good story and experience to your players. Allowances have to be made in order for this to happen, and I'm not just talking about changing mechanics to appease your autism.

If you just outright kill your players that is entirely on you. Nothing else is to blame for this. Good fiction hardy ever has good logic.

>>52058000
>they don't engage me in direct combat for various reasons as to why it isn't worth it and why they wouldn't get away with it
Ah yes, and such reasons are always exist and there is no way around them. As I said - GM really liked you.

>Do Masters and Adepts in your games just run around smiting their opponents all willy-nilly?
If they are Seers, Banishers, Scelesti or Reapers? They do it quietly and cover their track, but yes, they kill their opponents.

>>52058055
How hard is it to learn the basics and all that? What do I need to do besides reading Vtm20?

>>52058056
This. Why do you think people hate Gygax traps who save or die?

>>52048271
Well let's say you're a Daeva, but for whatever reason you want Nightmare, well your cotieri mate is a Nosferatu. Well you can take a sip, suffer normal rules for the Vinculum, but may then spend do to gain Nightmare, and then that sweet Devotion that uses Majesty and Nightmare together to give people boners while they die of fright

>>52058073
wow are you one of those faggots who think giving PCs an inch is akin to liking/favoritism?

>>52058056
If you have to change the rules of the game to make it work. The game innately has a flaw.

>>52058075
It's fairly self-contained i would ask the person running if you should read any other books. They aren't necessary but sometimes help you understand the world more.

>>52058090
I am one of those GM who think that enemies want to live too and will do their absolute best to destroy players as a threat. And if they can't, for some reason - they will take care of that reason and then smash you.

>>52058073
My ST likes me, sure. We're buddies. But I think the reason why he doesn't smite my characters left and right is probably that he understands what it takes to make a good story. You don't. Logic isn't important in fiction. Quasi-logic can help, but actual logic sucks.

>>52058097
What if I'm the person that's going to be in charge of the game? Also, how much time does it take to learn the game well? I plan to make a session during the summer with friends that have never played a tabletop rpg.

>>52058130
>>52058118
If your villains aren't a deadly threat - this isn't a good story.

>>52058118
you don't know how to make a good story. You have the mentality of a D&D DM trying to murder your PCs rather than make more interesting consequences.

>>52058151
There other means to be a threat than outright killing a fucking PC character.

>>52058134
A bit. It might be better to run a few practice scenarios so you don't get bogged down in learning shit when it comes. I would just read the setting books than spread to clanbooks to get a feel for each clan and the camerilla and sabbat guides. Clan books are optional but help with elder nps.

>>52058097
You don't have to change any rules. You just have to not have your Master NPCs draw out the big guns right away. Fudging rolls in direct combat is a different thing, even though it's fine and has been done behind plenty of DM screens since ttrpgs were invented.

Example scenario, that door you were talking about opens. Master enemy NPC grabs the Abyssal Codex and teleports away, while the suits of armor that line the walls of his study start moving on their own, having ghosts bound to them to make them autonomous enemies capable of wielding influences. The Master had this trap prepared as a stalling tactic, giving him time to set up the ritual for the Codex.

Not entirely logical, but what sounds more interesting to you? A trap of possessed ghostly suits of armor or just "BAM YOU'RE DEAD"?

>>52058180
Why does it matter when if bam you're dead just changes to bam the enemy died because you one shotted him. Just admit it unless you break the rules mastery is shit and ends the game.

>>52058097
>If you have to change the rules of the game to make it work. The game innately has a flaw.

Yet, somehow people make it work just fine.

The rules and setting might not work *they way you want*, but as stated a great many times before, that's not necessarily a flaw in the game. It simply means a game or system just might not be for you. There are many, many games with various rules sets out there. Find one you actually like, and stop the endless whining demanding that CofD or Mage 2e be something it's not, and likely never was intended and designed to be.

>>52058191
just admit it you are a bad GM who can't create an interesting scenario worth shit.

>>52058151
Yeah? How satisfied were your players? Did they like the deadly villains you used to murder their characters? Did they have fun?

>>52058172
Got any advice on managing the game?

Dark Archon is just a bad GM. It was that simple

I wish Dark Archon would just shut the fuck up.

>>52058191
Mastery is definitely capable of being abused, but if you go for the one-shot kill then you're really fucking boring. More of a flaw with the player than the system. Not to mention the ST could just fudge that too, saying that enemy survived anyway. Maybe this qualifies as rulebreaking to you, but I've never been too bothered by fudging, if I even know it's happening.

>>52058055

Then your proposed houserules do nothing to evoke that feel or peel back the power level. At best, it simply gates the power level, meaning that it'll rear its head when you least expect it.

No matter how long you delay it, you will still need to deal with the rocket.

Also yes. By participating in tactical realism, you are still playing your game in just as "realistic" a manner as the person who plays their wizard duels like a gunfight.

The issue is that your tactically realist playstyle is slightly incompatible with higher level Mage play, and maybe with a lot of 2e's design in general. You don't have to change your playstyle, but you do have to realize that no mechanic can protect an ST from themslves. Houserule, but also take a good look at how you run games, and see if you might not be better served by a game that encourages tactically realistic thinking.

>>52058180
>You just have to not have your Master NPCs draw out the big guns right away.
And why the fuck wouldn't he, assuming he is sane and want to live as much as you do?

>Not entirely logical
And full stop. It's shit like this that utterly destroys any immersion and belief in the game. If he thinks you are threat, he would stop and deal with you - if he have the time. If he does, then it's passable... unless you understand that spell take seconds.

>>52058203
Yes, they did have fun. Some players want to be inside horror game, you see, not just wank on their power fantasies.

>>52058232
>Mastery is definitely capable of being abused,

Why would anyone find this surprising?

Whether you like it or not, this is considered a feature, not a bug, of Mage 2e.

>>52058247
Haha I guess you have saps as players. I would at least reward preparation and caution even if they failed at it.

>>52058205
Make sure that players are having fun. Set story hooks but don't railroad the players. Make sure you didn't antagonists or situations too easy or more commonly too hard. Try to make sure that each of the members can engage. If you have a mix of characters some mental some physical, some social. Mix the type of scenarios. I would restrict or banned PvP but if all players are okay with it allow it. I haven't had any good come out of it though so I don't tolerate it.

>>52058198
you've been arguing with two people. I'll make allowences but in a normal game I wouldn't have to. The pcs should have some ability to defend as a group against a master and run or away or force him to run away. My issues are RAW. I speak from an objective point of view. No i'd never have a player auto killed because I fucking removed that retarded ES unmaking rule and nerfed magic enough that instagibs don't happen.

>>52058247
So now you've gone from it's a bad thing that Masters can one-shot, to it enhances the realism and brings out the horror.

Which one is it? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

I also really doubt that your players had fun being murdered, and I doubt that you had fun with it either, since you're here whining about it. Way to be a liar.

Either way, if you don't get it you just don't get it. Yeah, it's "logical" for characters to go for the immediate kill, but it doesn't make for a good story. The problem here isn't the mechanics, it's you being a turbo-autist who simultaneously hates realism but wants it in his games.

>>52058277
Thanks.

>>52058277
>I fucking removed that retarded ES unmaking rule and nerfed magic enough that instagibs don't happen.
So you already did the houserule? Then why are you here still arguing about it?

>>52058247

>why the fuck wouldn't he

Cause "he" isn't real. "He" is a narrative construct, a set of numbers crafted by you, and a set of actions determined by you, nothing more, nothing less. You choose to kill the player, every single time, because you do not or will not think of a more creative solution. You're not running the game like a game.

You say you want to run horror games, yet you always approach running the horror game with a tactically realist mindset. That already doesn't work for horror, and it absolutely doesn't work for a horror game.

To assume that any fight might not have an automatically lethal outcome is mere power wanking is a bit silly.

>>52058314
Different person as i already said. i'm just mad with the setting for needing to be hourseruled. Yes you can houserule everything i'm just sick m:taw being lauded as perfect when it has flaws you have to hand wave.

>>52058299
>So now you've gone from it's a bad thing that Masters can one-shot, to it enhances the realism and brings out the horror.
No, I didn't. I am absoutely sure that Masters can and should trump everything that's not them (except Rank 4-5 beings). But that doesn't mean that Master-to-Master battle should be the same as Disciple-to-Master battle. There should be a magical duel, and Master should fastly kill Disciple - but not another Master.

>I also really doubt that your players had fun being murdered
You can doubt whatever you want, doesn't make it much or less true.

>>52058322
>Cause "he" isn't real.
I wonder why would you ever play an RPG game, if you don't think about NPCs as people, yourself as character, and situation as real. I mean - what's the point?

>>52058339
The setting doesn't need to be houseruled. You just need to not be a tactical realist player murdering ST.

>>52058339

If you feel like it needs (not that you'd like it, that it needs) to be houseruled, that's a sign that you shouldn't play the game and play something else instead. No one should ever feel the need to houserule a game at all.

>>52058369
There's a difference between thinking of characters as people and treating them like "real" people.

You should remember, first and foremost, that they are primarily vehicles for the narrative, to be used and treated as tools to create the best experience and story possible. Treating them like a "real" person who murders players because he can doesn't achieve that.

Players can have the luxury of seeing them as just the people characters they are, like the audience seeing characters instead of actors, but to an ST they're props. Tools.

>>52058384
>>52058383
Again, if you have to make masters retarded or immune to powers to build tension then there is a flaw with thengame. I love flawed games I've played 2E exalted. I'm not treating it as perfect and the fact that you idiots want to pretend it's not flawed is your prerogative. Every game has issues some more manageable than others.

>>52058369

Because they're not real and your idea of "real" is nowhere as real as you think it is. Considering that your go-to solution for a Master is to instantly try to murder people no matter the situation, that's certainly the case.

Your job as a GM is certainly to make the feel real, but feeling real and being "real" are two completely different things. You're running a game, not simulating life according to your worldview on what the "logical" thing to do in every situation is. By doing so, you actually make the world and the people in it feel less real. By indulging in tactical realism, you make your characters just a smidgen closer to that shopkeeper who obliterates you in a Zelda game instead of a real person, even if they were a real person who had such power.

You should read that "Six Ways to Stop a Fight" essay from UA 2e, if you really only see "pulverize totally" as the only option to a Master or to a person.

>>52058273
>I would at least reward preparation and caution even if they failed at it.
If players are cautious, try to prepare for things and think about situation, they usually get that they want and stay alive.

>>52058420
>>52058466
Okay, that's how you do the games. I do them differently - I treat NPCs like people, each and every one of them. Characters of their own little stories. And if one of them kills PC by cunning plan, dumb courage or blind luck - that's how it is.

>>52058466
>the only option to a Master or to a person
It's not the only option. But for the Master who don't care about you, can deal with consequences and have a 3 seconds for a quick spell? You bet he'll dust your ass.

>>52058347
>except Rank 4-5 beings

Masters of Spirit trump those all the time

>>52058427
No shit it's a flaw. All systems have flaws. You just don't have to houserule to get past this particular one, you just have to do what all good fiction creators have done since forever and put the narrative first, with logic being a nice but unnecessary afterthought.

You think James Bond would have gotten to be so popular if all his stories ended with him getting shot in the head whenever he gets captured? You think IT would have been such a great horror story if Pennywise just sauntered into the protagonists' homes and killed them in their sleep? Do you think Batman would have become a household name if he got wrecked by every villain with powers, like he would "logically"?

>>52058427

Who is treating it as a perfect or unflawed game?

There are actual mechanical flaws, and then there are flaws created from a de synchronization of GM and player playstyle to RAW playstyle. That the latter will always exist for any game (and I would argue that Exalted 2e has more actual mechanical flaws than playstyle desync than Mage 2e) doesn't necessarily make it one of the former.

Houserule it and move on, or if you feel like you need to absolutely do it, move on to a game where you won't have to. People are going to bristle against your opinion but that's a matter of taste, not a matter of mechanical flaw.

>>52058501
Yes, I know. That's why I made another houserule for spirits.

>>52058476
Characterizing NPCs is fine. Great, even.

Choosing to murder your players and then blaming the system for your creative shortcomings is not.

There's so much Darkarchon arguing going on this threads, I feel like we're back in the days of Anon-kun / Aspel.

>>52058535
>Choosing to murder your players
I don't choose anything - NPCs choose for their reasons and try to do their best about it. After that - it's down to player's actions, skill and luck.

>blaming the system for your creative shortcomings
Imagining things again, huh?

>>52058476

Little stories that always lead to the characters straight up going for murder at the first opportunity. Ok.

The issue, then, is that you're always telling bad stories with your NPCs. You treat then as living people right up until combat, in which they become essentially the same character using the same tactic, nearly every single time.

You're ostensibly against realism, yet you cannot help yourself from indulging in tactical realism as soon as an NPC faces any kind of significant conflict.

And the truth is, there are no cunning plans, dumb courage or blind luck. While it is your job to make it seem that way, the fact of the matter is that you are in control of the entire experience, and always picking the tactically logical decision regardless of what the NPC would do, based on your always perfect knowledge of where the players are and what they can do.

>>52058493

He might. He might not. People aren't great at that kind of quick judgement. What's important is that the GM isn't channeling them (but secretly playing just as tactically a wargamer), but trying to evoke the idea of a panicked wizard. They go into this knowing what they will do and what that might happen.

>>52058581
Don't worry, it'll die in a while. Until next time.

>>52058627
>Little stories that always lead to the characters straight up going for murder at the first opportunity.
>The issue, then, is that you're always telling bad stories with your NPCs
You are an idiot who says things I didn't said and drawing equally idiotic conclusions from them.

>And the truth is, there are no cunning plans, dumb courage or blind luck.
Truth is there is. NPCs aren't magically disappear the moment the players stop talking to them.

>People aren't great at that kind of quick judgement.
Good thing that mages are! They have a shitton of things to judge quickly or beforehand: Mind, Time, Fate...

>>52058614
NPCs are not real. They have no agency. You dictate their every action, no matter how you spin it.

If an NPC goes for the kill, it happens only because you think they should, and you then roll to make it happen now that you've justified it to yourself.

Doesn't change the fact that the blame falls squarely on your shoulders, unless your player earned the death by doing something more significant than opening a door.

Anyone ever try the pre-written adventures for CofD? A friend asked me to GM something friday and I have basically no time to prepare anything. I was thinking one of the changeling ones, as its my favourite splat in the new world, but would rather not waste my time if they're trash.

>>52058685
>NPCs are not real.
Of course not, but you should play them as real people. With their desires, plans and shortcomings.

>because you think they should
...yes?

>unless your player earned the death by doing something more significant than opening a door
People don't often kill other people for nothing, mages aren't any different.

>>52058662
>Truth is there is
How? The NPCs exist in your mind only. Any cunning plan, dumb courage, or blind luck happens because YOU MADE IT HAPPEN.

>>52058722
And? The whole point is to play a game which allows you to forget this is a game and be another character. NPCs should behave like real people for that - and real people make those things happen.

>>52058740
No it doesnt sound like your npcs bwhave like real people.

>>52058751
What do real people do, when they want to kill somebody? They plan it, they get the weapon, find the time and place, do it and try to cover their tracks. Mages do all the same things, but with magic on their side.

>>52058721
Jesus Christ.

Do you accept that you are to blame for murdering players willy nilly?

>>52058721
If an NPC guy realized that an up and coming group of individuals started outperforming all their peers for a mysterious unknown reason (we know that it's because they're the PCs and not NPCs, but they don't) he'd kill them all before they finished their meteoric rise.

The average soldier in a war is an NPC. He, on average, does not kill a single enemy before meeting his fate, dying entirely worthlessly, because for every soldier who gets a kill there has to be a dead soldier. That would make for a horrid story, because fate is "fair" to these people. The PCs get a good story because both the rules and the fate and the NPCs enable it.

>>52058771
No, I don't. You don't even asked for fucking circumstances and motives before screaming shit.

>>52058784
First of all, who says they outperforming anybody? Second, sometimes characters got enemies in the Consilium for this exact reason - envy and fear.

>That would make for a horrid story
Not really, it can be a great war story and a really good game in certain systems/settings.

>The PCs get a good story because both the rules and the fate and the NPCs enable it.
No, they get a good story if they are smart, brave and lucky enough. They should make their own luck, not get it on a silver platter.

>>52058662

No, there isn't. There is only you, with your perfect knowledge of the situation, who just so happens to create all those qualities. Then, when you kill your players using that perfect knowledge that you cannot help but justify using, you blame the game.

>Good thing that Mages are!

Then you're not playing them as people, if they always just so happens to come to the perfect decision and have just the right kind of magic to do it You're playing them as board game pieces with elaborate back stories.

>>52058770
>What do real people do, when they want to kill somebody?
Hesitate because most people can't easily take a life without blinking?

>>52058692

They're all OK, but you will need to do a little more prep than just reading from the book. The adventures are sometimes made for long stretches of in-game time that might not be great for a one shot.

>>52058838
No shit, it sounds like all of your NPCs are DMPCs.

STPCs?

You are to blame, btw, unless your players honestly earned that death.

>>52058721
You
Killed
The
Player

Whether or not that kill was justified is up in the air and debatable, but the npc couldn't have killed the pc because the npc was controlled by you, it cannot make any action without you. Just how a player characters actions are a players, so to are an npc's actions yours. Thats how these kinds of games work.

Also, killing a player character for opening a door is a dick move, its cheap and from the information you've provided came out of no where. Which means it was also unfair. And I'm not talking about the npc's reasons, or if that player character did something to deserve BEING killed, I'm talking about HOW he was killed. Wounding a character for not seeing the trap coming? sure. Killing a character for falling for SEVERAL traps? Also fine. But having one trap immediately jib a pc? Dick move.

>>52058884
A little prep is fine, I just don't have the time to plan a full adventure from scratch. And its a weekend thing so I have the time to run something for 2-3 sessions. Do you happen to know if The Fear Makers Promise is any good?

>>52058853
>perfect knowledge
Which I naturally don't use. NPCs know only things they could've realistically know.

>>52058916
Are even aware of this little game called "roleplaying"? Where you act, like you aren't yourself?

>>52058838

>make their own luck

You are not a shaman. You are not channeling the spirit of an alternate reality through your body. Aside from the dice, you are the only person in charge of who gets to be lucky, brave, and smart. Something that you seem to grant more to your NPCs than your players, then get mad at the logical consequences of not creating a level playing field.

>>52058968
>Where you act, like you aren't yourself?

Took the words right out of my mouth.

YOU act, like YOU aren't YOURself.

Its YOU doing the acting, its YOU choosing and YOU are the reason that any character that YOU are controlling does anything.