3D Printing

Shills from an industry that doesn't want to have to invest in writers and designers instead of a monopoly on legal figures.

A combination of the understandable scepticism towards any new technology plus the fact it's in its infancy.

Right now, 3D printing is a very basic thing not up to the standard of the vast majority of traditional games. It might be able to make decent replacements for simple board game components, for example, but consumer grade 3D printed miniatures are vastly below even low standards.

Will it get better? Yes, in all likelihood, and attitudes will likely change along with it. But people aren't generally in the habit of investing their faith in that kind of promises before they're given solid evidence.

>>52036973
Change will never happen if you just wait it to happen.

>>52036940
Because some of us understand basic economics and business principles?

>>52037037
Explain?

>>52037046

It's the whole idea of economy of scale, that large mass production will always be more cost efficient than small scale production like 3D printing.

>>52037036

I agree, but that's why early adopters exist. People with enough money to throw at things before they're worth it for a few generations of the technology before it actually gains mass appeal.

>>52037058
It's only a problem if one sell the miniature. If you have a wargame that is 3D Printable on a desktop 3D printer, then it's gonna be a game changer for the entire industry.

>>52037087
But then you'll probably end up with different quality prints, and people will shit all over your companies "bad files" or "bad sculpts" despite just having a shitty 3d printer.

>>52037087
>It's only a problem if one sell the miniature.
No, economies of scale affect both supplies and consumers. If the choice becomes paying $500 for an army from GW or spending $1200 to get your own 3D printer + production materials...guess what most people will choose?

>>52037058

Sure, but game companies often overcharge the shit out of their product.

If I spend 300 on a 3D printer, and after that I can make minis at just the cost of the plastic? It won't take me very long at all to make back my money and then some just using it to reproduce GW minis for my own personal use, because the GW business model is selling $2 worth of plastic for $80. Even if it costs me $10 to make something that would cost GW $2, because of economy of scale, that's STILL a mass price reduction for me that will quickly be worth the investment.

>>52037141

The choice will be to spend five hundred dollars on an army, or fifty dollars on plastic for the 3D printer you already own. And whether to spend a hundred dollars on a model, or ten dollars on plastic. The price of the printer will be spread out.

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>>52037087
I'll get right on writing Blobby Tugboat Battles.

>>52036940
looks like garbage compared to a real model still, definatly not worth the price tag. maybe 10 years down the road

>>52037132
For vehicle models, most 3D printer between 500-1000$ can already print something that look just as good as those you buy from GW.

>>52037141

You army is gonna end up cost way more than the printer and material, that's not counting the fact that you can do lots of other things with your 3d printer.

>>52037220

>For vehicle models, most 3D printer between 500-1000$ can already print something that look just as good as those you buy from GW.

They really fucking don't. I believe in the potential of the technology but it has a long, long way to go.

I have a feeling Nintendo will make the 3D printer big for toys and games. Only then will /tg/ adopt it.

>>52037220
show me a 3d printer that will print vehicles as good as gw models. and when i say as good as, i mean no lines like >>52037190

>>52037253
They're still riding high on amibo, so unless they make a printer that comes with a chip embedding feature, I doubt it.

>>52037172
>overcharge the shit out of their product.
>doesn't understand there's no such thing
>there's no such thing as a "fair" price in economics

>>52037194
That model was suppose to have 12 articulations.

>>52037262
>>52037247

here is the link
>https://twitter.com/elTonioBerg/status/836998133812965376

>>52037302

Yeah, that's nowhere fucking close to GW quality. Impressive, but the level of detail is an order of magnitude less complex.

>>52037279

You would buy the chips, like the Raspberry Pi, and they'd provide the models for models online.

Things like printed RC cars for mini-races and stuff. Or a decal to turn the controller into a gun for shooting games. Things like that.

>>52037302
that is miles better then what ive seen, hard to tell with the paint job, but id have to have one in hand before id drop 500 bucks on a machine. im glad the tech is improving though, so many talented people out there, think of all the custom minis

>>52037374
Without paint
http://3dwargaming.com/product/formic-awc/

>>52037190
If you want a better print, tighten your belts and decrease to a 0.1 mm layer height, otherwise a good benchy.

>>52037436
>>52037190

Yes, at 0.1mm is where the magic happens.

there is a huge difference between 0.1 and 0.15, don't know why.

>>52037287

Sounds like a handy myth to perpetuate from economists that want to make a lot of money.

>>52037457

Your brain edits out the difference.

What you see has never been an accurate representation of the world around you. There are certain tipping points where your brain just goes 'eh, good enough.' and starts ignoring finer points of detail because its not important enough.

>>52036940
Is that Helper?!

/tg/ is negative in general. A good desktop DLP printer might run you 4k+/- lets say and then you need to know how to model stuff and make a viable print. For the average neckbeard who is really only interested in printing space marines for cheaper than GW can do it there is no draw.

The fact that most people assume 3d printers are these home brew machines made out of k'nex and a hot glue gun rather than a DLP Projector and resin doesn't help either.

>>52037374

>$500
>a machine that can produce high lvl detail for mini gaming or terrain

You may pick one.

I was looking into investing into a 3d printed but the ones that came close to the detail i wanted were well over $2,000.

The tech is neat. and it will go very far in the future. but im not going to blow $2,000 on a machine that has issues doing what i need and will be considered trash when the tech starts to shine.

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>>52037406
Here is a pic for the lazy ones.

>>52037494
not just that, 0.1 feel different when touching

>>52037525
This is awesome

>>52037457
Typically it comes from viscosity, as anything over 0.1 mm allows the filament to pool and round as it cools. Low temperature with small layers with PLA filament is wonderful, but without the bonus of acetone smoothing like with ABS (unless you have special filament).
Also, there are some amazing resin based printers right now, if I find a link I'll post it. Plus, Shapeways has some wonderful materials.

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>>52037563
Found quite a few images on their website and Facebook page.

>>52037591

The problem with resin printer is that they are expensive and a pain to use, I once used a Form-1, not worth it.

0.1mm with FDM is still the best in my book. Filament just cost so much less than resin and the machine is more robust.

>>52037172
Any product is worth what the target demographic is prepared to pay for it. If a significant enough portion of the GW playerbase are prepared to pay "$80 for $2 worth of plastic" then said product is worth $80.

>>52037302
>https://twitter.com/elTonioBerg/status/836998133812965376
looks like a folded paper model desu family

>>52037172

>If I spend 300 on a 3D printer, and after that I can make minis at just the cost of the plastic?

lol

My friend has a 3d printer that can do decent-sized minis and make them look smooth as silk with some sanding, and it cost more than 2000 bucks.

300 dollars will get you a hot glue gun and food coloring, sculpt it yourself.

>>52037640
There's now the SafFire on the market, which seems to be a new lead in the industry. It has a (relatively) cheap price tag with virtually invisible layers. At $2K it's still cheaper than 40K models.
>>52036940
It's because no one wants to/legally can make 3D models for 40K.

>>52036940
Because supporting your local businesses and shit, can't play pickup games if you have nowhere to play.

>>52037713
I use the Anet A8, which had to be assembled, and it was only $175 and works fantastically. Beyond that, there's a guy making a series right now on how to make an incredibly cheap Prussia MKII printer that works pretty well.

>>52037036
In the words of Geddy Lee: "Changes aren't permanent, but change is."

I am not going to be an early adopter of a machine that, in ten years time, through natural market pressure and simple innovation wil lbe a superior version.

>>52037728
Or maybe they could just evolve with changing times, instead of trying to delay the inevitable.

Magic the Gathering and D&D are both still successful, when some people thought the digital age was going to be their deathnail.

>>52036940
How much was the printer? How long did that single model take to print? How many times did you have to do it, and how much cleanup did that take?

The tech just isn't developed enough for a consumer level. It's great if you're already well-off, but at that point you could just buy all the models you wanted instead of a $500-$2000 tool.

>>52037776
It's more more difficult to pirate those products to the standard they offer.

>>52036957
/tg/ has Stockholm syndrome?

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>>52036940
They haven't seen some of the better work, just the shoddy or early attempts that have been superseded.

>>52036940
3D printing is for prototyping and making molds. The product made with the materials from the 3D printer itself is going to be shit for actual use.

The resolution for consumer-level printers is still at an unacceptable level.

"You can just sand it" yeah go ahead and sand away the print lines off a fine-detail part like a 28mm/heroic mini's head.

>>52037058
But then there's the matter of distribution and the fact that (for example) GW has an Monopoly on Warhammer figures means they can charge whatever the neckbeards will pay for miniatures.

>>52038328

Those look fucking terrible. All rounded angles and soft rubbery details. The paintjob doesn't help. I'm sure if they had picked a less angular design and a cleaner paint job it wouldn't look as shit, but as it stands, why would I pay MORE money to print SHITTIER models? It's cheaper to buy BETTER models than to 3d print at the moment.

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>>52038950
Whoa there anon don't think I was trying to shill for 3D printing just because it's the hottest thing or that it's a better alternative for quality stuff that's already on the shelves, it still has a ways to go for sure.
But in this case, those models >>52038328
use designs from the Mechwarrior Online Game (and the upcoming Battletech RTS & MW5) and can't be found anywhere else, include pieces for different variants, and don't look as goofy as the current models which are pretty much on par for quality, if not worse, than these custom ones.

>>52039223

I didn't say you were shilling, just that the current level of 3D printing is below that of injection mold plastic and not up to my (admittedly high) standards.

I can see visible stepping on the image posted here >>52038328

To me, that is unacceptable. All surfaces must be 100% smooth unless under a microscope. You can sand stepping off yourself, true, but those edges are too round for my taste too.

We know that many resin miniatures are made via CAD and have 3D printed master copies, so the technology is there already, but for the consumer level it is far too expensive and is still industry grade technology only.

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>>52039267
Yeah well being brought up on GW mini's and Perry Brother sculpts does give you a taste for the finer things, myself included.
It still has a fair way to go but I think the potential is still there and looking more and more attainable as time marches on.

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>live on a 3rd world shithole
>models that you want aren't available
>3D printing is available
>don't 3D print the modles because /tg/ says it's bad

Correct me if im retarded, but doesn't kingdom death monster use 3d printing for its models? And they get praised all the time for being so good.

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Resolution is shit? Then get a SLA DLP 3d printer which can pull out 20 microns resolution (0.02 mm, max for traditional printers is 100 microns = 0.1 mm) But don't have few thousands of $? then build open source like RooBee One where the most costly component is a projector. Or buy it for 600€, if you have more money then skills. There are plenty of other designs in wild. Pic of 25 micron DLP print, of course life is bitch and resins are pricey but if you dig deep enough you will find home recipes or chemical formulas.

>>52037640
So what printer is that guy using? Couldn't find it in the website with a cursory glance. Because the files don't mean shit.

>>52038216
No, /tg/ is sick and fucking tired of idiots pretending 3D printing is ever going to revolutionize anything. They are too fucking expensive and the market is too small. Anyone can both use and need a paper printer, but how often do you need a machine that can build something from one specific kind of plastic? How many fucking doorstoppers do you need? In the time you 3D sculpt the specific part you need or hunt down the exact thing on the internet, you could have gone to the store and just fucking bought it three times over.
Not to mention that most people don't have the skill or interest to learn how to properly use the printers.
And then the 3D printer guy always goes "Nuh-uh! They work great! I have this ten bucks cardboard printer that puts out boutique level of quality" but either never posts fucking proof, or posts miniatures that would have looked shitty in the 80s.

>>52037716
>At $2K it's still cheaper than 40K models.
I've nearly 12000 points of warhammer and i've not even spent 1500$

>>52036940
I'm pretty optimistic about it, the only problem right now is that affordable (for me at least) printers don't produce nice enough results to warrant the investment.

>>52040161

All those options cost way more than just buying models. Stupid.

>>52036940
Miniatures never really struck me as being suited to how 3D printing builds up objects. I'd always imagined something more akin to a miniaturized milling to actually carve stuff out.

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Just a spot of advice for anyone considering getting into 3D printing:

Everyone will tell you to improve your prints by tightening your belts. Maybe they are right sometimes.

But literally the first thing you should do to take your prints from >>52037190 to >>52037525 quality is to fix up your filament mount. Put it on a shitload of skateboard bearings.

The 'tugging' action of pulling the filament reel against friction and over humps in its rim etc is responsible for most of the layering artifacts you see in really awful prints.

That said, if you want to real good you'll need an SLA printer, these aren't really affordable, but an FDM that can something that can print like >>52036940 or >>52037525 is. At the $600 (AUD, presumably therefore $300 USD) printer point, excellent models are possible but require a lot of care, effort and experimentation. It took me about 3 months of doing it as a hobby before I had something good going. If you want to be a script kiddie retard and not learn how your printer works and still get shit like >>52037640, you'll need to drop a few thousand.

The major advantage though is still, far more so than cheap printing, the ability to print whatever you want. I 3d modelled my own miniatures for Adeptus Evangelion as one of the very first things I did. I would say there's only one or two of these that are up to scratch with my current 'expected' quality for prints.

The low quality is less of an issue when the very fact that you have a miniature that remotely resembles you as opposed to just playing pretend with your bucket dipped 3rd ed space marine is pretty fucking impressive in the right game.

Too expensive.

>>52042166
To be clear, only some of the MP Evas, as well as the sniper and the dabbing knife dude benefited from my advice about the filament reel above. The painted one and the one with the shield have fucking *terrible* layering artifacts.

>>52037037
>>52037058

I'm a business school professor. You are misusing those concepts. Economies of scale vary based on the technologies used for production and often top out at comparatively low volumes produced.

There are also diseconomies of scale, which a good intro economics or operations management course should explain in detail. There's a whole stream of literature in management research that looks at why large organizations often grow well past the point where the inefficiencies overwhelm the economies of scale.

>>52037190
THIN YOUR PRINTS

>>52036940
Mostly because we undrstand the (affordable) tech isn't there yet.
Give it a couple of years, until then you're paying out the nose for inferior minis.

>>52036940

Big Hobby is trying to repress proliferation of affordable high-quality 3D printing.

>>52043151
At this point, it's starting to sound like fusion reactors. "The technology isn't there yet, give it a few years,..."
Only that working fusion power plants are a lot more likely than affordable high quality home 3D printers.

>>52043193

You might start seeing 3D Kinkos for a while before you get good home printers.

>>52037287

Yeah there's only an equilibrium price. BUT. If margins are high, then a competitor or close substitute can come in and bid the price down. Or, if you can move the cost curve via a technological advance and then you're able to bid the price down and still make a profit while your competitors struggle to break even.

So you're right not to be sentimental about prices. Customers will buy for as little as they can, and vendors will sell for as much as they can get away with.

That anon you're criticizing has the basic logic down. No point quibbling over nomenclature. GW is making huge margins that even a more expensive production technology will be able to price compete with.

>>52037476

There's a vast amount of money to be made in consulting on what constitutes a fair price. In regulated industries, you can build a career just providing analysis and opinions on what the fair price should be.

Whereas equilibrium conditions that emerge naturally have never spent a dime on guys like me telling them what to do.

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>>52036940
Because most 3D-printed models currently look like shit, provided you don't want to spend considerable time and money on your models, sometimes even more time and money than buying actual "legal" models.

Also it almost always looks like absolute ass on models with rounded surfaces.

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>>52043354
Pretty selective choice of image there.

For reference, this is the most recent image posted on Thingiverse for "Dreadnought". It's a modification of a standard model that apart from being very unadorned is pretty difficult to distinguish from a 3rd ed sculpt at anything other than eye to eye scrutiny.

>>52037674

But if an alternative appears that consumers see as equivalent that costs $40, then that becomes the new equilibrium price. The consumer still gets something that he would otherwise have paid $80 for. Except now thanks to competition they get their item and keep $40 for themselves.

Companies that are most ruthless about charging high margins offer the biggest incentive to potential competitors to jump into the market.

>>52037763

"Change is inevitable. The wise adapt."

>>52039267
can someone circle the "visible stepping" in this image? >>52038328
I can't see it anywhere, and I think the pissbaby is a mong for saying so. He's an intractable that guy.
This is to say nothing of the images small resolution

>>52044312
Look on the shields and shoulder cannon.

>>52036940
Quality hasn't hit plastic injection mold levels yet. There is no widespread effort to demonstrate "hey, look at this awesome 3D printed thing I made!" that doesn't look like crap.

>>52037036
That is clearly false. I had a carton of milk in my fridge that expired last week. I never manually inserted bacteria into it and FORCED it to go bad, some things just go bad on their own.
I am not actively responsible for all the changes that occur in the universe.

>>52037776
Death knell not deathnail.

Sorry, can't let that shit slide.

>>52041977
> only using a 3D printer for models

You're straight retarded if you don't think these things won't be as ubiquitous as microwaves.

>>52039910
I know that feeling but i learned to not listen to /tg/

>>52044910
Hardly. These things are pretty much limited to hobbyists, as no one actually needs to print their own plastic goods that are typically injection molded. More likely you'll see the tech used in specialty stores to print one off stuff. It certainly doesn't cover a basic human need like needing to cook food.

>>52042166
Ah cool, that makes at least 3 peope ITT who actually have printers (another Anet A8 user). Sound advice. I would say as more general advice to study before you start messing around; for example, tightening the stock belts on my printer would have destroyed them (they were steel wire reinforced instead of fiberglass; steel stretches).

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I made all of the tanks in my FoW army with a 3D printer, and lots of companies, including GW, make their master copies with a 3D printer. /tg/ understands that getting a decent set up will cost money, but a lot of people are just angry over nothing.

>>52043475
>difficult to distinguish

I would immediately wonder what was wrong with that dreadnought because it looks like it is melting.

>>52036940
No expert, but the lack of progress is annoying.

DLP is a single axis and a projector, and you can also see people online getting good results with LCD screens and daylight curing resin instead of the projector

The fact you have to diy or spend thousands is hilarious. Surely it could all be done far cheaper. It just seems to be taking a ridiculously long time to trickle down

>>52045378
There have been several smaller scale SLA printers put through Kickstarter and the like. But as you said they aren't commonplace.

>>52045192
Interesting business proposal to help develop a burgeoning technology.

Eventually they will be the blockbuster of history but they will allow growth for future investment in the interim

>>52036940
I remember being on /tg/ six years ago, and people were saying 3D PWINTING IS GOING TO REPLACE MINIATOOR COMPANEEZ WITHIN TWO YEARS
Didn't happen. Six years later and hey, I'm still right, and /tg/ retards are still wrong. Call me when the techno-rapture actually happens fags.

>>52036940
It's like how /v/ is negative about VR gaming, the idea is cool, and would be great for the respective communities.

The problem is the tech just isn't feasible there yet. We have printers that can make GW tier sculpts, but they aren't available to the public, and those that are so damn expensive, that just buying the models is a mere fraction of the price.

Now, I'd say give it 20 or 30 years, by that time, we should have perfected the tech and miniaturized it to the point where it's no more difficult to get than a tablet.

>>52037172

The plastic is just about the smallest of GW's expenditures. The minis only cost them $2 to manufacture if you completely discount the costs of product development, machining, distribution, and retailing. Indeed, they make about 10% profit, so in a general sense they're selling you a piece of plastic worth $72 for $80.

>>52042889

>Economies of scale vary based on the technologies used for production and often top out at comparatively low volumes produced.

I don't know what you mean by 'comparatively low volumes' but machining the moulds costs them tens of thousands for each model, that's an expense that's not being covered by a couple of dozen sales. Anyway, 3D printing somebody else's intellectual property is just another kind of recasting but much slower, with higher set up costs, and with a higher per-unit cost.

I think the biggest thing a lot of people are missing is that the entire business model is based off selling models.
So if 3d printing overtakes their model selling they have two options.
1: Like TTRPGs they will release rules more often with more of a power creep to encourage people to buy more books.

2: TTCG of making a tell for what is official and what is not and only allowing official models into play, which they already kind of do, but they would need to be more stringent about it.

>>52045672
>they make about 10% profit, so in a general sense they're selling you a piece of plastic worth $72 for $80

While your right about their being additional costs GW racks up, thinking they only make 10% profit is hilarious. That would mean retailers that sell GW stuff at standard 20% off (if not more) have been operating at a loss, for years...

I picked up the Triumvirite of Ynnead recently for $55 (msrp is like $75). GW, not to mention the retailer still made a profit of that, however small.

>3D printing somebody else's intellectual property is just another kind of recasting but much slower, with higher set up costs, and with a higher per-unit cost.

This is spot on. 3D printing what can (and probably already has) been re-casted is a laughable waste of time.

I hope quality 3D printers become commonplace one day. But any manufacture is going to be able to mass produce faster and cheaper then you. And printing out a whole army is probably going to be a hugely laborious waste of time. That's assuming you have the specs to actually print out the models you want.

>>52045548
Be tech is there, and it's great. The hurdle now is getting a standard VR API built in to things to make development not a total headache.

>>52045496
Well the thing with shops selling printed one offs is that they need the rights to print the thing, which is problematic when someone waltzes in and says "can you print a GW space marine?"

>>52047451
That's because all the neckbeard on /tg/ are too lazy to put together a fully 3D printable wargame as a big Fuck you to GW.

>>52037525
>not just that, 0.1 feel different when touching
Same shit. Our end-product senses involve a lot of brain-interpretation on top of the raw information.
Part of why we're having so much trouble with giving machines human-like senses.

>>52047451
That doesn't seem to stop Anvil Industries, Scibor, and any other company that makes totally not space marines.

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>>52044312

Here you go you fucking retarded faggot ass motherfucker. Shits like you are the ones shitting up /tg/ with your insufferable stupidity combined with your god knows where you get it confidence and arrogance.

Next time you open your putrescent faggot ass shithole of a mouth know your fucking place when you're ASKING FOR SOMETHING from a POSITION OF IGNORANCE you stupid fuck.

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>>52043475
>pretty difficult to distinguish from a 3rd ed sculpt at anything other than eye to eye scrutiny.

This delusion is why /tg/ hates 3d printfags. The arms aren't even right.

People who think the current printing is "the same" are just blind, retarded, or are complete shit at hobbying so it's no surprise they think current levels are acceptable. Especially when they're paying $600 to thousands for the printer just to print shittier copies.

>>52044910
Great, if that's the case I'll buy one in twenty years when they're that ubiquitous and useful. If I buy one now it won't magically transmute itself into the vastly better version that will be available a decade or two from now when the tech actually becomes worth buying.

So what are some good basic models for dnd? like a warrior,wizard, cleric and thief?

>>52040755
Any printer that can print at 0.1mm layer resolution can print some thing as good.
Get out of your gave you Luddite.

>>52049535
They still have their own sculpts and what have you. In store 3d printing requires either open source or licensed models to print, both of which are unlikely as communal content tends to include "Don't sell this", and anyone with the IP to license has the cash to just have someone injection mold the things.

You basically have to get someone on board who WANTS 3d printing in a shop to be a thing, and has the resources to produce content for it.

>>52053997
But there are several space marine models you can download from Thingiverse and the like right now, all of which are licensed under CC or GPL which allows you to sell them.

>>52051955
Ehh SLA printing is more or less the same. FDM prints like the Furioso are subpar though.

>>52036940
3d printing makes faggots irrationally angry. Both pro and anti get so faggy and pissy that there is no hope of getting an actual discussion.

Honestly, that is just everything on tg. There is just no point to this place anymore. Just faggots screaming at faggots while everyone else just keeps their heads down.

For me, I think the two biggest hurdles for 3D printing are quality of the minis for the price spent on the printer to begin with, and the relative difficulty there is in terms of printer setup, maintenance, and the models you want.

If you told me that for roughly $500 USD I could get a 3D printer that takes only a few hours of setup out of the box, a tutorial disc/program for how to use the damn thing, and a decent 3D modeling program that comes with a bunch of "pre-gen" models ready to be printed, I'd bite the bullet and get one.