GURPS (mechanics) why the hate?

>>51978713
Looking for info primarily from people who played it and don't really like it, Or who have mixed feelings about it.

>>51978713
Too much rules. Is nothing but a clusterfuck of rules when to do thing that better games do with just a roll. All in the name of 'simulation', something nobody needs. Is the emblem of what is wrong with RPG. Something that need to be utterly euthanized.
GURPSfag are first grade sperger retarded.

>>51979165
>It's a crunchy game. I don't like crunchy games.
Fair enough, some people only like 'lite' games that fit on a few pages.

But where my favorite RPGs are Shadowrun 4e and Shadowrun 5e, I personally prefer a game with some mechanical depth to it (when playing tabletop games - if I'm spending the weekend larping in the woods I'll want something simpler.

However, it's a bit retarded to hate people just for liking things you don't.

>>51979237
You hate people that kill whales and put nuclear waste in the sea? Playing GURPS is litterally this. And GURPS Player are RPG equivalent of Serial Killers Sociopath. Rules Matter. Too much Rules don't make somethign Deep. Just stupid.

>>51978713
The overall opinions on Gurps are such that trying to find any meaningful answer through discussion is worse than pointless.

All you can really say is that GURPS is. It's a system, one that fans will defend to the death, and an equal number will come out and despise with every fiber of their being. Ultimately GURPS can be defined as a system that may or may not work for you, so you'll just have to try it out first.

It's funny... we throw around the word "objectively" a lot. The problem with using that term is that even if you have evidence on your side, 4chan's major selling point is that it has people that will disagree with you, and so there's always at least one guy that will argue with you every step of the way in the face of all evidence, logic, or reason.

In other words, arguing logically means nothing when the other guy argues emotionally, and so "Objectively" has come to mean "I think I'm right and so do two other people in this thread, and one of us will most certainly argue autistically about it."

>>51979265
>Playing GURPS is literally murder and the destruction of the planet you live on.
Citation needed.
>*ALL* GURPS players are sociopaths.
I haven't met too many GURPS players, but these claims seem, well, insane. I think I'm gonna need some good explanations for this one.

>Too many rules is stupid.
From what I've gathered, the reason GURPS has so many rules is so you can pick and choose the ones that fit the game you want to run. I expect you would eventually slip into a pattern of "these are the rules I include in my campaigns all the time as my default for this genre".

But, in general, you're making lots of broad statements (crazy seeming ones, even), with nothing backing them up at all.

Which leaves me wondering...

Are you serious, or just memeposting?

>>51979361
*Sigh*

Yeah.

I'm just looking for logical explanations about specifics about what people disliked about specific core and commonly used GURPS mechanics, so I can avoid pitfalls and possibly determine if it's a system I'll like or not.

There's always someone making outrageous emotional claims on 4chan, or just trolling.

So you ignore them and focus on the rational ones.

>>51978713
There are too many options. This might sound like a good thing at first, but most of them are pretty boring and even if you want your character to have that ability you'd rather just RP it than to have to go through the whole process. Most of them are pretty minor and a lot of them do more or less the exact same thing.

As for skills, here is a list of some skills http://gurpswiki.wikidot.com/ind:skills

Yeah, it's up to you to prune that down, but at that point why even bother providing the list in the first place?

>>51979455
Isn't there a "cinematic" skill system, for people who want a more D&D or WoD style skill system instead of a crazy specific and lengthy Rolemaster/Classic Unisystem type one?

I don't expect I would use the regular GURPS list.

>>51979455
Oh, I forgot to mention that those skills are not even close to balanced. In the basic set alone you have accounting and acrobatics right next to each other. You can choose to be good at falconry or you could instead choose to be good with a sword.

>>51979387
If you go to serious Game Developing places like the Forge you will see how playing GURPS is literally fucking your brain and how its whole design phylosophy is TOTALLY WRONG, if not LITERALLY CRIMINAL.

>>51979507
Which "the forge"?
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?159851-What-is-quot-The-Forge-quot

>>51979500
But they're not all priced the same. The crappier ones are cheaper, are they not?

>>51979507
Can you link to an article that explains this perspective better?

>>51979541
Skill difficulties are based more on complexity than overall utility. For example, Mathematics (Pure), a Hard skill, is probably not as useful to the average adventurer as might be an Easy skill like Guns (Shotgun).

>>51979576
That feel when IRL you has invested all those points in Mathematics (Pure) and nothing in Guns (Any)

But at least I can design dungeons that are 5-dimensional hypercubes

>>51979576
Oh. Yeah, not ideal. I'd be inclined to set their prices based on power/usefulness, not "how complicated is this in real life".

>>51979576
Okay, so the skill difficulties are shit.

Any other bad mechanics I should be aware of?

I hear I should avoid the ultra tech book in general.

>>51979636
You can just mod skills like that if that's what fits your campaign. I wish people didn't stare at RAW too hard, GURPS is a toolkit.

>>51979670
I likely would/will do that.

If that's my biggest concern that's an easy fix (but good to know in advance).

>>51979689
Another thing is not to let players take disadvantages that don't matter in the campaign, or to give out fewer points for them. G-Intolerance in a historical Crusades campaign? No.

>>51979719
Sure, I can see that.

I've already talked to GURPS general about general advice about campaign prep, I'm currently looking for specific examples of mechanics that don't work so well.

>>51979670
That's a pretty big cop out. If you're going to say that a system is good as long as you ignore most of it then the system isn't good. GURPS doesn't really offer anything that justifies all the extra work that you have to put in. Fans like to wank to all the options it gives you, but you might as well not have any limitations at all and just tell people to roll every now and then. The vaunted crunchiness comes to nothing once the GM establishes that he will eagerly override most of the rules because they are too clunky and inconvenient.

>>51979770
The GURPS people I've talked to seen to hold the view that the benefit of GURPS is you build the game you want to play with minimal homebrew required, by selecting the published mechanics that best match what you're looking for.

>>51979576
>>51979649
Yeah on the other hand if you play a social campaign where maths are also important, your 12 points in shotguns are going to be much more useless than the 12 in mathematics.

>>51979857
Sure.

I'm unlikely to ever run a campaign where math is more valuable than combat skills though, realistically.

>>51978713
most of the people who vehemently hate it around here haven't played it and are arguing with outdated memes (muh no flavor, maths, too many rules, etc)
as for actual flaws:
>the skill system can be a little arcane to new players between skill difficulty levels and the 1,2,4,+4 pattern of skill costs
>the default magic system is shit. SHIT.
>it requires a good level of work on the part of the GM compared to other RPGs - characters need to be vetted properly to keep out dumb shit, you need to decide which rules you'll be using, and ideally you'll give the players a list of allowed/recommended skills and traits
i've ran a few campaigns and many one-shots using it, and besides that first hump of getting used to the system it isn't that much more complicated than most other systems
just don't go full retard and try to run your first campaign with every splat under the sun - basic set and some smart DMing will usually cover your ass

>>51979649
ultratech's pretty bad because it was one of the first proper splatbooks made for 4e, iirc, so unlike later splats it's not only way too focused on a specific type of scifi but also the numbers are kind of wonky so there's stuff like damage vastly outstripping all armour very fast (and the armour that does resist most damage being virtually impenetrable).
so the splat kind of fails in being neither generic nor balanced

>>51979770
I'm not saying to strip most of it. It's just easier to take out the stuff you don't like compared to trying to mod 3.5/pf or something.

>>51979455
newb here

so even if you can just pick any rule that you want, it's still bad?

>>51979967
Not that guy but:

I think it's a mixed blessing. It's good in that it helps you run exactly what you want to run, but bad in that if you're not familiar with the system you won't know where to find the options you want.

Like building a character for 3.5, but on the DM side.

>>51979967
I mean, it's obviously a matter of taste, but I think it is. Yeah.

But I think that the problem with being able to choose any rule you want is that there are so many rules and ways for them to interact that removing rules becomes its own challenge. Now, someone compared it to building a character in 3.5. That's a decent comparison except that if you fuck up a character it's not that big a deal. Fucking up the system is a much bigger deal. Trust me, I run a home-brew Paranoia game and I recently changed the skills a bit. I basically changed three or four skills and the changeover gave me headaches. And I had the benefit of being able to kill the characters and replace them with imperfect clones.

And I just think that the skill system is irredeemably bad.

>>51979870
Nobody cares about you. GURPS is universal. it doesn't matter if a style is played 10k times more than the other. in the manual they are treated equally or at least that's the idea

>>51979649
Skill difficulties are fine and provide a solid baseline. Hard skills tend to be things that, logically, would take a very large investment of time and effort to master.

For most Hard scientific or academic skills they are the kind of thing where you can spend a lot of resources to be good at them, trust that you will be able to find an expert to help you if you need them in game, or put a small investment of points into them and take lots of extra time when you need to use the skill.

>>51980004
>>51980136
oh, that's too bad.

if not GURPS, then what do you guys recommend?

>>51979496
Yep, called Wildcard! skills. They can either represent a focus (Swords! or Science!) or a dramatic archetype (Knight! or Bard! or Wizard!) depending on what kind of game you want to run.

>>51980136
The skill system is fine and your comparison falls flat.

GURPS rules are deliberately modular and it's clearly explained when they are optional. A GM with a few months of experience can easily tell players what rules are in effect and what books are being used for a game.

With players that know their stuff you can even switch to simple shorthand explanations rather then a full write up.

GURPS rewards players and GMs for learning more and getting better with the system, unlike, for example, World of Darkness games where the cracks and flaws become unbearably visible with familiarity.

>>51980136
> there are so many rules and ways for them to interact that removing rules becomes its own challenge
No dude, that's the issue with homebrewing with normal systems that assume everything is staying as-is and messing with one aspect can cause a butterfly effect throughout the mechanics of the system.

GURPS is meant to be modular. Everything is built from the ground up to be used without having to worry too much about other things being knocked out of whack.

>>51979423
Well first of all, I personally dislike how steep 3d6's gauss bell is, it fells pretty binary with you either being proficient at something or sucking at something and not much inbetween.

Secondly , due to the weird range of numbers on 3d6 things like criticals are on unintuitive thresholds. "5 and below" simply is not as evocative as "on a 20".

Thirdly, there's a shit ton of options and most players will never read them, GURPS is a system for the DM. Read your stuff, provide overviews and compilations that highlight what your players will need. Copy and compile stuff from the books into a single document (I did this with a copier, thank god for flatrate memberships at the copyshop).

Fourthly, and I think this is the biggest caveat, and yes I know this is often repeated as a meme, bit it's still true: GURPS core mechanics are very straightforward, and not even its extensive module rules will change that. They represent a very deterministic simulation of happenings. If you want to play something where the very basic logic of the world is more embellished (for example a world of wuxia kungfu magic, a game where narrative is more important etc), GURPS isn't the right game.

>>51979885
Don't forget the UT tanks would die to a T-72 from HT.

I think in UT they tried to convey that camouflage, jamming, deception and good sensors would matter more than raw firepower/armor but failed at it. (And that'd also come back to not making the book generic or universal enough.)

>>51980665
So you think a d20 system is better for wanting higher numbers? Or is it just because you are just as likely to get any single number on the dice. What a juvenile notion.
Gurps dice favor your skills being ten or higher because the curve favors the middle.

There are a shit ton of options in almost every system, not reading them is the players fault not the systems, Gurps has the advantage of more heavily themeing their splats so unlike many other systems you don't need to dig though every book for your character options, if you are making a modern soldier for instance, you would want core, high tech, and possibly powerups, where if you wanted to make a fighter in dnd let's say you need to comb every book for feats, items, ect.

And on your final note, name a system with a good rule set that can do what you are describing, gurps can do other settings fine, but if you mean narrative as in freeform rules light, then no gurps doesn't do that, no good ttrpg does that. But gurps would allow you to play a narrative game much better then most other rpgs because it's skill system is much more free in what you can do.

>>51981155
Fudge.

All you arguments are INVALIDATED!

>>51979165
>>51980665

Can you give an example? Most people cite either stuff from third edition that hasn't been valid in two decades, or optional rules from pyramid articles that aren't the core system anyway.

You'll notice that the guy who's hating on GURPS is long on generalities but has yet to give you a specific example of any of his claims.

His point about 3d6 being "you rule or suck" is false. Most rolls have situational modifiers (such as taking extra time to lower a difficulty). It's not as swingy as, say, pathfinder, but pathfinder being way too swingy is one of the big critiques of the system.

If you want the weaknesses of GURPS, here you go:

1) Requires significant DM prep if you don't use a pre-configured suite of rule options like you get from Dungeon Fantasy or After the End.

2) Nearly all the rules are in the core books, but they're a little disorganized.

3) There are lots of options to let you do lots of things. Inexperienced GMs often turn on all or most of the options and end up with way too much complexity. Like cinematic damage and gritty realistic damage are supposed to be opposites, but newbies sometimes try to turn both options on at once.

4) PLAY is very easy and simple, but character creation can be a beast if the GM allows everything.

> If you want to play something where the very basic logic of the world is more embellished (for example a world of wuxia kungfu magic, a game where narrative is more important etc), GURPS isn't the right game.

The whole point of campaign options and GURPS is to do this. The core rules support it, and there are two different supplements that walk you through how to do this particular option. It's like claiming that Shadowrun sucks because it has no system for cybernetics and if you want biomodification then Shadowrun isn't for you.

>>51979902

And more to the point, it's not about turning stuff off, it's about not turning ON campaign options in the first place.

GURPS is quite good and works great in actual play, but it also has public image issues.

>>51980136

The rules are modular. Which PARTICULAR interactions are leaving you this butt-hurt?

Here's an example: Psi, ritual path magic, divine empowerment, imbuements, and sorcery are all different systems for supernatural effects of different kinds for different genres or character classes. And yet all are very compatible, to the point where I can't remember even a question about how they interact ever even coming up.

The martial arts styles rules are so easy and clean that you could summarize them in less than a page. Adding new styles happens all the time and nobody bitches because they're all mutually compatible with one another.

And weird, intentionally complicated combos, like a chi-wielding martial arts alchemist with supernatural fighter game special moves, is easy and simple to do. Even if you slap it onto a vampire, robot, or Celestial Zebra. The modules are self-contained and interact with one another in consistent, predictable, simple ways.

>>51979649

The skill difficulties are fine. You'll learn them in minutes and once you've created your character they stop mattering anyway.

Ultra Tech is the weakest of the Tech books and has some problems, but that's by GURPS standards. By the standards of any other RPG it's a great book that gives you not just a catalog of good options for a sci fi game but also guidance on sticking gear into a sci fi setting of your own creation.

I'd highly recommend Ultra Tech, but the other anon who warned you about the relative armor ratings of different kinds of tanks was right that you'll need to shift those numbers around a little if you try to merge HT and UT into the same game (e.g. high tech aliens invade present-day earth). Increasing DR on the tanks in ultra-tech is all you really need to do. We're talking about one page in a book that's mostly not about vehicles.

Magic is another example of a book that by GURPS standards is lacking. The magic system is fun and easy and works just fine, but still has a lot of cruft left over from third edition and compared to other stuff that's come out since then it's weak.

You've got to understand, a book like Martial Arts is so damn GOOD that it'll recalibrate your expectations about what to expect compared to what you'd get from Onyx Path or WotC or CGL. By those standards, books like Magic and UT are great. It's only when you look at a book like High Tech that you realize that those two could have been even better.

>>51979636

Usefulness varies from campaign to campaign. The pricing is the same, it's the default difficulties of skill checks that vary somewhat.

Try GURPS general, the OP usually includes a PDF that has a good primer on the major issues/strengths of GURPS. The people in that thread are helpful and non-assholes.

>>51981420

That's because it FUCKING SUCKS.

>>51979770
That's not really the point.
The rules are there for if you need them. If it becomes a point of contention at your table how much damage you take from falling off a biplane, you can use the falling rules. If not, then you can just say you die.

It's not ignoring rules, it's using what you need. I don't really understand why people have trouble with this.

>>51985814
People are dumb. Memes got to their brains.

>>51979885
I've had some fun Ultra-tech campaigns, where the GM used the rules in ultra tech, but then designed a universe where poeple had adjusted to the wonkiness of ultra-tech. People now used stealth fields, which in turn were countered by sensors, which in turn people would try to hack. Its janky as hell once you get into laser pistols being the basic gun, don't get me wrong, but the earlier tech stuff like exo-suits and man-portable railguns is actually quite fun to play around with.

>>51988344
I had a ghost in the shell/elder sign game that had black ops encountering the occult. They regularly used genius level dedicated blowtorch devices to brick the enemy cloaking and then open fire with hyperspectral target system linked chain guns.

When they found something invisible that couldn't be hacked was when they panicked.

Especially when they found it was invisible to electronics, but visible to the naked eye.

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>>51979507
The Forge is your source? Hahahahaha

>>51989095
Is this the forge that made dogs in the vineyard, or the one that's a bunch of pretentious theory rafters who take credit for WOD and 3.5?

OP it sounds like you should have no problem with GURPS. The downside of GURPS IS the up front work. If you are OK with that then the system is perfectly fine.

On the other hand if you are a lazy GM who wants everything to be done for you then look elsewhere. In the end most criticism of GURPS really wouldn't apply.

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>>51987525
This pretty much. GURPS isn't any heavier than many popular RPGs, and the actual game resolves very quickly. For OP's purposes it is perfect.

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GURPS is a giant pile of fucking __fun__ made by aspies who actually care deeply about the game, its long-term viability, and their playerbase and beyond that are also motherfucking highly competent designers who do actual research, but don't let that spoil the playability of their material. Not only that, the rules themselves are a mess of fucking well thought-out plug'n play options/rules modules which don't even break if you use most of them together and if you don't use them, it makes you a fucking okay person because they're designed to be used that way. As if all this weren't enough, once you get past prepping the campaign shit and you're ready to play, guess what? YOU FIND OUT IT DOESN'T EVEN RUN heavy, and is remarkably smooth in actual play even when using some of the heavier rules stuff if that's your 'thing'.

Bottom line and the bare naked truth, GURPS is easily one of the most fucking pleasant and enjoyable games I've run or played with over the years, and is remarkably flexible and easy to bake in whatever feel, style, 'flavour' etc. you're going for with a particular campaign. Granted no, it's definitely not perfect and it's not a game for everyone; nor would it run every single campaign idea with the same vigor and expertise. However, it is well-loved for many good reasons and if you want a generic system that can do from light or narrative stuff all the way to full autistic crunch or simulation, and let you bake in whatever weird campaign ideas or character concepts you want, and having it be fully supported and an undiluted version of "your vision" when the game starts... GURPS is a fucking great toolbox to have in your toolbox. Plus, the sourcebooks are fucking fantastic no matter what you play.

The memes are the work of the Patriots.

>>51991580
Between your post and the others in this thread, I think I will be giving GURPS a go, but changing skill difficulties so that the more useful ones are the ones that cost more points.

The trick will be picking and choosing what to turn on and off.

>>51991761
I wouldn't worry about tweaking the skills thing personally. Try it before you muck about too much, the skill system really works fine as-is. There are also "official" tweaks and mods for it out there, but wait to dive into the rabbit hole until you've got a grasp on things how and why they are by default.

Good luck, I hope you enjoy. Either way, good gaming to you.

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The people who hate on GURPS either a) don't like the large amounts of options or b) have never played it and rely on memes.

GURPS is fine if you like to customize your own custom game with custom rules. You can make it as lite or as crunchy as you want, and everything under the sun is there for a GM to make their idea come to life.

The problem lies that many players hear "options" and throw all sanity out of the window and insist that just because it's in the rulebook, you have to use it. That's so not true and un-GURPS-y. Technically, hitlocations and damage types are optional (but are widely accepted), and some people say no completely to the likes of Martial Arts.

The other problem is that players are so incredibly lazy, or shortsighted, that when they say "hur there's just too much" and you reply "well there's Dungeon Fantasy and Action that streamline a bunch of stuff pretty well," they completely ignore that fact and insist that their outdated memes are valid.

ITT: GURPS fanboys brush off every criticism of their game as a "meme" or a "toxic meme" or an "outdated meme"

They are the absolute worst RPG community there is.

>>51994848
Worst RPG worst community. Is fair.

>>51994848
OP here

Here was my impression:

ITT: a couple legitimate criticisms of GURPS show up, and a bunch of rabid crazies start spouting off their angry feelings without any rational arguments to back them up.

Then some GURPSfags show up and dispute the validity of the few real issues that were mentioned, with rational counter arguments.

I'll consider all rational points made, and give it a go, since the rational complaints mentioned seem mostly small and easily fixed.

Hopefully it's less of a waste of time than mutants and Masterminds and Savage worlds were. Fuck did I ever hate those mechanics.

>>51995054
Is not too late to use Fudge and put GURPS in the trash were it belong.

>>51995093
What makes fudge good?

I know literally nothing about it.

>>51995125
He does everything GURPS does, but is leaner and made by a proper game designer.

>>51995054
I think your impression is flawed. There wasn't a bunch of rabid crazies, it was obviously one troll (no one actually thinks that playing GURPS is akin to dumping nuclear waste into the sea).

The GURPS fanboys didn't really offer any rational counter arguments, they just said "you've never played GURPS" and "it's OK if you are experienced with the system" (which is true of literally any system that isn't FATAL). One person even argued that the fact that the useless pure math skill is a bigger investment than the very useful shotgun skill was fine because you might play a game where your character's knowledge of pure math is more useful than shotguns. As a guy who has a degree in pure math from UC Berkeley and is currently studying for his math GRE, allow me to state that PURE MATH WILL NEVER BE MORE USEFUL THAN SHOTGUN PROFICIENCY IN ANY CAMPAIGN EVER.

>>51995142
>Does everything GURPS does
I thought the only system that could make that claim was HERO.

So fudge can handle everything from gritty realism, to scifi, to cartooniness, to superheroes, to fantasy with all different types of magic?

>>51995174
HERO is another broken corpse like GURPS, seriously Anon is 2017.

>>51995161
>Skill difficulties are bullshit.
Yeah, that was the main real problem that was mentioned. One that seemed easy to fix by reassigning skill difficulties based on what's actually useful, so shotgun is most expensive, and math is least expensive.

The other valid seeming complaint was that I could fuck up and choose the wrong options for my campaign. Which, is certainly possible. I would run my selections by GURPS gms to make sure I've picked the right ones, at least the first few times.

Assuming I don't find a better system to suit my needs, that is. But as mentioned, this is generic system number 5. SW and M&M were shit, BRP was simply disappointing, and Unisystem had balance issues, no universal rules, and is only really suited to low powered campaigns.

>>51995244
>based on what's actually useful
Which is different in different campaigns, and GURPS supposed to be universal.

>>51995125
One criticism of GURPS that hasn't been brought up is that the spread of the 3d6 is too steep. If you have an 11 overall then you have a 5 in 8 chance of success. But just one point lower and it goes to 4 in 8. Another point lower and it falls to 3 in 8. Your odds have just fallen by 20% because you have the next highest skill rating. Then it falls 25% because you have the highest skill rating after that.

Fudge also has this problem, but worse as far as I can tell.

Other than that I don't know much about Fudge even though I own the book. I really should look it over some time.

>>51995244
Skills are not priced on campaign utilities. Getting a Degree on Pure Math in RL is more difficult that learning to use a shotgun. This is why GURPS is garbage because it try (and fail) to simulate a reality no one care about.

>>51995192
I'm looking for a 5th system to try. That means there have already been 4 systems that let me down. I was under the impression my only remaining options for such a flexible system were FATE and GURPS and HERO,and FATE seemed lowest on the list.

Been looking for such a system since 2008. Tried several options for 6+ months each, and so far they're all shit.

So, you're uggestions Fudge. What makes it good?

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>>51995161
>allow me to state that PURE MATH WILL NEVER BE MORE USEFUL THAN SHOTGUN PROFICIENCY IN ANY CAMPAIGN EVER.
Anything TL <6. Campaigns played on Taft-1 and any other settings where Lovecraftian shit is acknowledged to be tied to fucked up mathematics.

>>51995269
Stop looking for flexible system. Flexible system arenothing but a lie. Flexible = Shit at everythign it does. Look for games that has just the rules you need to do the thing you need then. RULES MATTERS.

>>51995265
Can you give an example other than skill difficulties?

>>51995250
Agreed. If I do run GURPS, I'd price them on a per campaign basis. But since I typically run faction heavy action+adventure campaigns, I expect once I came up with a list of what was valuable, it wouldn't change much from one campaign to the next.

>>51995252
So, you're saying the skills aren't granular enough, and the option that's supposedly "better" IE fudge, is even worse.

>>51995269
I'm the guy who studied math and you might have noticed that I don't like GURPS. I just don't like it.

On the other hand FATE is total and absolute shit. Garbage. Its community might not be as bad, but the game itself it absolutely horrid.

I'm not sure what you didn't like about Savage Worlds. I know that some friends have complained about stun locking but I've always played in groups that ignored that so I can't say. The skills aren't really balanced and there isn't much reason not to max out your fighting skill, but I guess it worked because my groups were more RP oriented (I actually played a pacifist for the first game so I rolled fighting one time in the entire campaign to use a stun gun).

>>51991761
Start with GURPS Lite. It's the core books pared down to 32 pages of essentials, as opposed to ~600 pages of optional subsystems.

>>51995319
Anon what game do you want to play? Maybe we can suggest you soemthign useful that is not UNIVERSAL GENERIC shit.

>>51995336
Essentials like how fast you can climb up a ladder.

>>51995285
And when there is no good system for what you want to run (often the case), or when the existing systems you've found in that genre are ones you consider to be shit, what then?

Sometimes I want to play something other than Shadowrun 4 or 5 or Unisystem (for urban fantasy).

Sometimes I want capeshit or scifi or various forms of high magic fantasy.

>>51995353
Exactly.

>>51995355
Then use a Capeshit only system and an High Magic only system. SYSTEM DOES MATTER. Looking for Generic Universal shit will only fuck your brain beyond repair.

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>>51978713
Use GURPS for the background info in the splat books.

Its research is pretty decent.
Don't use GURPS to play except if you fully plan on restricting yourself to the Core Rules.

This is what will happen if you don't follow this advice:
You'll spend weeks fiddling out which rules you actually want in your system, tinkering around for hours because "just taking everything from eg Martial Arts" is not an option.
Well, its a theoretical option but a single Combat sequence with full MA rules will make it such a mess focused on miniscule details that nobody will want to repeat this shit afterwards.
And going with the core rules only is really only an option if you don't want super deep rules with stuff like different targeting zones to attack.

Trying to introduce GURPS into a GRUP that doesn't consist solemly of people on the Assburger spectrum will lead to two things: Switching to a different system to play
A GM whose sole future interaction with GURPS will be creating useless character builds that will never ever see play.

>>51995319
Well, I'm not saying that skill granularity is a huge concern for me, I'm just saying that if you think it is then Fudge will just make it worse. Personally I don't mind it for one-shots when some characters are virtually guaranteed to do well in some skills and virtually guaranteed to fail at others. It helps you find the character immediately. But in a longterm game I'd get kind of annoyed because it just kind of encourages compartmentalization as you level. Why be OK at something when someone else is already amazing at it?

Now, maybe it isn't that much of an issue with GURPS' curve. I've never stuck through a campaign long enough to find out. But it seems like it must be a problem in Fudge. I mean, look at the distribution, you only have a 1/16 chance of rolling better than +2 and a 1/16 chance of rolling worse than -2

>>51995335
I didn't like SW skills or how integral it's Benny system is to everything, or the stunlocking.

I don't like m&ms bland and repetitive slogfest combat.

Computer science degree here.

The reason fate seemed unappealing was largely a matter of dissociated mechanics. I don't want a game where narrative editing is a central focus. I *do* want a game where the mechanics represent/simulate the rules of one world or another.

>>51995380
The GURPS is definitely not for your. GURPS can't simulate anything beside Kromm flawed perceptions of reality.

>>51995370
If GURPS fanboys weren't so obnoxious then I would probably love the books as a supplement to other games.

But I'd rather just ignore the game completely than risk some GURPS fanboy trying to talk to me about the shitty game and then getting mad that I'm adulterating what is clearly already a perfect system.

>>51995343
A setting agnostic, classless, high magic fantasy system, with interesting tactical choices, and where I can tailor the races/cultures/background training to the homebrew setting I come up with, which can handle the creation of new abilities or powers as needed. Unsure if I want "internal MP reserves" magic, or Witcher style "channel manager from the area" magic.

>>51995419
Legend

>>51995416
Why don't we ask for banning GURPS Generals, let's move them to /trash.

>>51995370
What background info does it have that's good?

(That's what I generally go to BRP books for)

>>51995431
All of it except Japan that has a weab slant and Greece that has been made outdated by recent archaeological finds.

>>51995422
I have played the Mongoose version.

The d20 one isn't classless, or even finished for that matter. "Build everything as PCs" kills it's viability, to boot.

And In case you were about to suggest FantasyCraft, it's not really any good for high magic.

http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/

>>51995430
I'm going to assume that you're serious and explain my reasons for not agreeing with that idea
1) If they're in their general then they're not shitting up the rest of the board as much
2) There's no good reason to ban their threads as a whole just because we don't like them.
3) Censorship is a slippery slope. You think you're using it against your enemies but tomorrow it'll be used against you

>>51995367
Have you considered there might be another explanation for your brain problems?

>>51995483
>as much
The general inhabitants don't shit up the board at all. It's the memelords who shout GURPS at everything that do that.

>>51995431
Good historical research.
Not excellent (on Martial Arts, it stops at HEMA levels, which means it consists of quite a few american born fallacies about european historical swordmanships), but thats still miles above what many other products give you.
Really, just pirate the splats, look at the fluff and never ever touch the rules.
Its just to fiddly and I'm saying that as somebody who played one of the most clunky and rules-heavy systems ever (TDE/DSA 4.1 with fucking all rules except stamina).
You'll simply spend a lot of useless time on tinkering with the system that is better spend on playing.
Its basically akin to wanting to switch to Linux and grabbing Gentoo as your first System ever for a person that does a lot of shit besides Coding on his PC.

>>51995483
Cancer need chemio not good words.

>>51995475
Yep. That's the "unfinished" one that would be a slog to prep for every session.

>>51995504
That's good to know, regarding the research. Still doesn't help me with my "I need a new system" problem.

I'm looking for something that I can use as a better replacement for level 8-16 homebrew heavy Pathfinder campaigns.

Looking at non generic fantasy systems:
I've tried m&m, Rolemaster, rq6, mrq2, Eric!, Pendragon, SoiFRPG, and carefully examined 5e, FC, true 20, d6 fantasy, harp, and rule of cool's legend.

None of them were what I was looking for, and so I'm still looking.

>>51995538
Dungeon World.

>>51995538
D&D 4e

>>51995538
>a better replacement for level 8-16 homebrew heavy Pathfinder campaigns.
The Dungeon Fantasy line of supplements is intended to get that D&D feel from GURPS, so you might want to look into that. It's meant to be coming out as a stand-alone RPG sometime around August.

>>51995568
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08i9kvCJvJ0

>>51995576
Can you offer any articulate reasoning?

>>51995538
Oh yeah maybe don't use GURPS for that. I'm a GURPSfag and all, but magic in the system is super specific and fiddly. Restricted RPM is probably the least shit option.

>>51995579
This is dumbed down to a level GURPSfag can handle with their damaged brains.

>>51995492
I'm reminded of that other thread where some guys said they had been playing GURPS for 10 or 30 years but hated it. Like, why?

>>51995588
So, no, then?

>>51995597
Is not my fault you are an idiot. After all you play GURPS.

>>51995551
Why is DW good for this? I thought it was all low level dungeon crawling stuff.

>>51995559
Tried 4e back in 2011 for a year. Passable game I suppose. It's going in the opposite direction of what I'm looking for though, with AEDU being anything but a unified MP system or energy channeling system.

>>51995603
>GURPS is complicated, complex and hard!
>>If you play it, it means you're dumb.
Make up your mind.

>>51995603
Anon, shouting no like a small child is not reasoning.

>>51995568
Isn't DF supposed to simulate low level dungeon crawls not high level adventure fuckery?

>>51995581
If I went with GURPS I was thinking either Sorcery, or non spontaneous RPM (they have to invent a power with invention rules before they can use it).

>>51995597
>>51995603 - seems like a no.

>>51995607
Ok what you want a good Story or a good Fight? Don't say a good Simulation. TG can't simulate anything, go play Vidya for that.

>>51995612
God, can you even dress yourself in the morning without looking like a retarded? Stop playing GURPS and look for professional help.

>>51995244
Can't CTRL+F because I'm a filthy phoneposter, but has Dungeon Fantasy been brought up yet? GURPS has a couple series that take the guesswork out of setting up a campaign: Dungeon Fantasy for not!D&D, Monster Hunters for Buffy/Supernatural/WoD:Hunters, etc. All relevant rules are reprinted in a single location for easy reference and presented in a streamlined fashion; for DF, those rules center on exploring dungeons, fighting fantasy monsters, and taking their stuff, and glosses over, simplifies, or outright ignores rules for other things that are either irrelevant (G-forces, running a business, etc.) or out of genre (no in-depth social maneuvering rules or hyper-realistic combat rules for bleeding and sepsis because neither are appropriate in a game about being badass knights and wizards that slay orcs and rob dragons for a living).

>>51995632
I want a system that can handle the kind of setting I want, with interesting gameplay (and combat).

If gameplay didn't matter, m&m would have been fine.

>>51995648
It's been brought up. I mentioned that I thought DF was for low powered dungeoncrawling, which is not what I'm looking to run/play.

>>51995628
>high level
>8-12
Oh right, Pathfinder. Sorry, I spend too much time in the OSR. Yeah, DF's too low-power for that.

The problem is that 8-12 PF covers a really wide range of power levels. Can you elaborate a bit more?

>>51995628
Nope. In D&D terms, DF adventurers start off at level 4 to 6 and only grow from there.

The overall tone IS more AD&D than PF though; monsters are a threat that need to be approached tactically more often than not, and there's a focus on smart preparation for dungeons (your 11-foot pole and 50' of rope and lantern and chalk for marking tunnels etc.

>>51995653
You are out of luck. No game out there will ever cater to your needs. I'm sorry.

>>51995704
Don't forget the hirelings.
I love the upgrades they can get in DF if they survive a few dungeons, too.

>>51995538
Have you had a look at Anima - Beyond Fantasy?

>>51979500

>Balanced
>GURPS

Literally not a real problem. The point of GURPS is to build interesting characters. The skills they have should reflect the skills that that character would have. There is no implicit idea that they should be balanced. This is point buy not DnD.

>>51979885
This is a good post. I've been GMing gurps for 5+ years and I broadly agree with all of this.

>>51995658
I think that Hero Champions might be the system for you.

Disclaimer, I've been playing it for years and I don't really know how it works. Partly (mostly) because the games tend to get derailed by my antics (I swear, I'm not trying to be that guy and I think that I'm not). But from what I've seen it seems pretty well suited to what you want.

>>51995810
Then why bother having a system at all? I mean if everything is going to function under the assumption that players will only do what makes for more interesting characters and stories then why not just let them decide when they succeed and when they fail? Why bother with all these dice and fiddly rules and expensive books when you can just hang out with your friends for free and make up some story together?

Hey, FATAL's combat system really isn't so broken because players should just take turns describing what the characters do and what the outcome is.

>>51995882
FATAL is still better than GURPS. And played by less mentally fucked individuals.

>>51995672
Not 8-12, 8-16.

Contingent spells, large scale transmutations, long-term planar bindings, planar travel, that sort of power level. Think "stuff that can be accomplished with level 6-8 spells (mostly 6th and 7th)" and you'll get what kind of power level I'm looking for. The earlier levels are just for when we want the characters to grow into that rather than starting there.

>>51995704
Tactical combat is not a bad thing, but odds are a "dungeon" would be little more than a 1-2 session diversion from overworld/faction-based adventures.

Frankly I'd basically run it more like a medieval, high powered Shadowrun, except you might choose to openly work for a particular company and your employer may not care about keeping your employment a secret.

>>51995800
I have not. What's it good at?

>>51995847
Is HERO any good for fantasy? What is its magic system like? How does it compare to GURPS (which I've read a bunch of at this point).

>>51995891
>Joke post confirmed.
Nothing is worse than fetish roleplay.

>>51995930
You build them with points.

And outside my high powered fantasy system search:

What's a good system for scifi mashup, say star wars + Stargate + halo + Mass effect (not wholesale, but picking and choosing favorite elements from each)

>>51995961
As individual powers?

Do/can individual powers come from a single shared energy reserve? Can you make them powered by energy drawn from the environment, or human sacrifices, or valuable spell components, or other stuff rather than your own power reserves?

What happens if you want "cast spells from books or scrolls" magic, rather than "individual talents"? Is that possible?

>>51978713
The only thing I dislike are the defaults on skills. It's impossible to remember all of which skills default to one another.

>>51995930
Champions is a superhero game, but those superpowers can basically be treated like magic. There aren't really any set list of powers/spells like in DnD, you can make them up yourself.

Like GURPS it functions on a 3d6 roll under system but I personally haven't come across problems with granularity because my group does frequently spend the whole session roleplaying. A couple weeks ago we spent an hour working out negotiations between my character and the twenty porn stars who were threatening to quit because they'd been murdered by another superhero and then brought back to life. Even though my character is quite good at persuasion I didn't persuade them to stay because they didn't like my offer to let them all star in the next movie, "The Human Centipede: But This Time It Actually Does Have 100 Legs Like a Centipede. Although the Number of Legs a Centipede Has Can Vary, But There Are No Centipedes With Only 12 Legs I Can Tell You That". They didn't seem as put off by the fact that I was going to sew them together ass to mouth as much as the fact that I was going to sew 2 and a half spiders to them to round it out to an even 100 legs

>>51995930
Anima is really high-power fantasy that take some cues from shonen anime and JRPGs. Combat is very tables based and intimidating as fuck, but it's not too bad once you learn it. Only big issue off the top of my head is occasionally-wonky translation (I believe it's from Spain) and that some of the splats that are considered necessary to fix some core stuff aren't officially translated. Also Acrobatic Warrior is a joke; by time you can reliably tumble around someone, the Ki users are DBZ flashstepping and unsheathing katanas.

>>51996002
There are limitations, bonus, substructures and others things that will allow you to do most if not all of that things. Is not easy to understand how.
HERO is like tabletop Minecraft, you can build anything given enough times and patience.

>>51991761

Suggestion: don't mess with anything until you've tried GURPS Lite. The skills thing isn't noticeable, if it's even really a problem.

Then once you know what you're doing, try turning on options. One at a time. It does take much to make the game change mood dramatically. I usually run Lite without any options at all for my near future sci Fi game.

>>51996017
Oh. I thought champions and hero were the same game, and Google told me hero has a big ass fantasy book.

>>51996027
This sounds cool for a shounen bleach type campaign, how does it handle wizards?

>>51995161
Sounds like the problem is your limited imagination. The pure math skill in GURPs allows you to do some really nifty things for codebreaking. And if you think that never comes up in a military campaign OR political campaign your GM is softballing you.

>>51996078
IIRC, Wizards have the highest power ceiling but take the longest to reach it; their lower-level spells are okay, but their endgame ones are fucking stupid strong. A good example is the highest level spell in the Illusion college lets you deceive reality, making your illusions real and any lie you tell become truth within a city-wide radius.

>>51996027
>>51996119

>>51996017
>>51996044


Sounds like I need to read through champions and anima as potential options for the high powered campaigns.

>>51995244

I think you should try the RAW of GURPS Lite before you decide on skills.

You're 100% right about the other issue. Sounds like you're right on track for a good campaign. Don't forget to download the PDF in the opening post of GURPS general.

>>51995538

You're already playing the best game. Generic systems suck. Why wade through stupid cube roots and a hundred books when you can just play more Pathfinder.

>>51996791
Because I'm sufficiently dissatisfied with Pathfinder that in my last campaign I had like 130 pages of houserules and have been considering rewriting the whole goddamn game from the ground up.

It's better than any other games I've tried for the genre, and yet still woefully inadequate.

>>51996858
Hmm..

What about beam d20 or everstone, would they fit the bill, and are they any good?

>>51997194
BESMd20*

Or just regular BESM for that matter.

>>51996858

If you don't like Pathfinder then you're fucking cancer and shouldn't be gaming too begin with.

>>51996791
>Why wade through stupid cube roots and a hundred books
This kind of low quality bait is just sad anon. I ran GURPS for years with just the basic set and the 3E cyberpunk splatbook. Plenty of stuff can be done with just the two core books since it contains all the tools you need.

Why are you just using memes to communicate your dissatisfaction with the system?

>>51978713

GURPS Is good. Just try and do a trial run with the basic set and maybe high tech before doing stuff like phonics or "tactical"(read autistic) combat.

>>51996027
>some of the splats that are considered necessary to fix some core stuff aren't officially translated.
The only books that aren't translated are Core Exxet and Gaia 2 (though Prometheum Exxet might as well not have been).

Core Exxet also switches the combat from table-based to using the formula behind the table directly.

>>51995244

The reason for skill difficulties is because GURPS has rules for character point advancement by time invested - so if they have two weeks of downtime, you can determine how much they can train their skills.

If you don't intend to use those, then it doesn't really matter if you change the difficulties - though most of the time it's not important, as most combat skills are all Easy or Average.

>>51995161
To be fair, and as the guy who brought up Math vs Shotguns, Mathematics (Applied), (Cryptology), or (Statistics) could maybe plausibly pull their own weight as skills. I was deliberately cherrypicking the most (and explicitly) useless specialization of the most marginal Hard skill to make the point that the paradigm was complexity-based.

>>52000626
Yeah, I was suggesting that background skills like math should be significantly cheaper than a useful skill like combat skills.

>>51998054
>Pathfinder is perfect
Most gamers in the world would be inclined to disagree with you, mate.