Game system without a dump stat

>>51958598
I feel like Pillars of Eternity handled the system pretty well, but I can't think of any others

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Attribute

>>51958598

You would have to have very generic Attributes that can be used by characters of different archetypes (i.e. warriors, rangers, thieves, mages, sorcerers, healers, etc.).

>Health (Points)
>Special (Points)
>Damage
>Defense
>Luck (Crit/Evade Bonus Chance)

>>51958789
I think some games use that but it is too generic for me. I just want something a little better than D&D where 6 strength and 15 strength have no difference for a Wizard character. But no system is going to be perfect.

>>51958598
If you make every stat essential to a character, then all characters will start looking the same. If every attribute is important, then none of them are.

>>51958598
>con
>effecting defence

>aglity
>effecting how fast you can swing a maul

>strength
>making you able to use plate armor
>plate armor
>something desgined to be worn
>can't be worn unless you are 60% stronger than the average humanoid

what?

>>51958598
3d6 in order.

You can't "dump" anything because you can't move anything.

>>51959422
No, that will just naturally produce dumpy characters

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>>51959358
>effecting

>>51959506
>Implying that's not the fun

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>>51958598
Use the WOD system instead. if someone neglects a stat than use it against the character.

>>51958598
Best way to deal with min-max is to actually promote it. Create stats, feats, traits or whatever you want that is begging to be exploited. But most importantly cross the class barriers often. What I mean is do things like adding a very useful combat related skill that uses charisma as it's main stat or put in spells that could only possibly benefit a warrior. Give incentive to min-max the shit out of a system where everything is scattered about and you'll end up with characters that are surprisingly adept in many different things just by the nature of meeting requirements.

>>51959358
plate armor is heavy as fuck dude

>>51959062
One of the more elegant solutions I saw to the problem was that buying higher stats is progressively more expensive and not all stats are very useful for everyone, but some important secondary stats were calculated from the sum of your primary stats, all stats. This gives a serious disincentive to overspecializing without making every character well rounded either. Specializing is still very advantageous but never putting any points in your lowest stats is just foolish stubbornness.

>>51958598
Your dump stat is where character is born

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>>51959661
No it isn't.

Maile is heavier by far than plate armor. A properly made suit of armor weighs in at around 50 to 75 pounds. A single chain shirt can weigh 35 alone without the helm or any other protection add another 7 to 10 for the gambeson, legs and arms too.

Plate is actually light by comparison to most other "fantasy" armors.

>>51959727
idk, i was talking about fantasy/dnd rules, not real life. but it's also good to know

>>51959793
I get the game balance argument they are making but if someone is making up their own system or universe it's a good idea to pick a technology level.

Like the Plate armor thing, it simply wasn't seen until the very end of the medieval period. well in the ornate fully enclosed knight form. Might even give players a start in some part of the world that doesn't have great natural resources, Mae they use cheap iron for armor, rarely use swords, lots of spears bows and axes. leather still being viable. that way when they encounter the more advanced stuff it's rightfully shocking.

>>51959865
I think this is a cool idea for a RPG. But I think my setting is pretty typical DnD where plate mail armor is the best and heaviest. I struggled to come up with a way to make strength useful for Wizard characters other than carrying strength. In my idea, most Wizards would probably be low strength and wear very light armor, but there would be an alternative for fun if someone wanted it.

>>51958598

The stat list from an old Mass Effect game I started working on and didn't develop too far was basically:

Fitness (health, carrying capacity, move speed)
Elegance (dexterity with a touch of charisma - handled dodge bonus, persuasion/diplomacy etc... - led to me envisioning a Krogan Ballerina character whose character focused on elegance then fitness)
Daring (mental fortitude, intimidate style skills etc...)
Concealment (stealth, lying/bluffing etc...)
and Biotics (because mass effect)

Basically, key thing was to make sure that each stat had a double side to it - usually one physical/combat, one social. Biotics and Fitness are the two that don't quite manage that, but fitness provides enough benefits that everyone will want some of that and biotics is very much a thing you'll want to use in conjunction with the other stats so you don't get hte wizard problem of "I have 20 INT and need no other attribute".

>>51958598
> I am trying to imagine a game system that wouldn't have any dump stats.
Four stats:
- Strength/Constitution
- Agility/Dexterity
- Perception/Reaction
- Charisma/Willpower

>>51958598
Why did the short guy get fucked over? He was already short he didn't need to become a goblin

>>51959727
Occasional SCA player here, it's still super heavy. You don't want to wear armor any more than you need to, it's fucking super tiring after a bit.

>>51961183
And most plate still does severely limit mobility compared to almost all other options.

>>51958598
You don't have to imagine it, there are a few systems that manage to do this well.

Check out Hackmaster 5th edition.

>>51958598
Legend (Rule of Cool) has long solved your problem.
As has Ryuutama.

>>51961183
>overweight English majors prancing about in inaccurate costume think they know anything about armor

>>51958647
I hate it though.

>>51961072
He probably represents the sneaky and agile archetype, and dexterity is usually overpowered.

>>51961625
Anon, they've done studies. Google "Limitations imposed by wearing armour on Medieval soldiers' locomotor performance". Wearing plate armour roughly doubles the energy it takes for someone to walk or run.

>>51958598
It's a good idea. Your seems basic but solid.
I worked out a system for my home brew where you can essentially play any role with any set of stats.
You can sling spells with low intelligence you can be a warrior with low Dex or low strength.
Certain combinations are clearly always going to be superior, and like you said min-maxing will always come into play, but I tried to make it so that there's no painting in the corner of any class (or template).

>>51958598
Be sure not to divide stats into combat stats and non-combat stat.

Also, do you need Con?

Only skimmed thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned. A system that starts with stats, and then defines your class based on your stats, is another way to avoid dump stats.

>>51958598
Just make it so you can't take points out of certain stats to improve other ones. Dump stats are eliminated

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>>51958598
I Kind of solved this by having the players first make a character concept and then statting them together with the player. No rolling and no points.

First couple of times they would make quite strong characters but after a while the characters got more balanced and fun to play as we got used to the system. Ofcourse having mature players who understand what makes a fun game and are on the same page with you helps.

>>51959062
That's retarded. Spoken like a true grognard.

>>51959062
If every stat is important, it means that every stat is important, not that they do the same thing. If you can't imagine that, you've got problems.

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>>51961625

My kit in Afghanistan was almost 30lbs. I take it you don't understand fatigue. Just doing PSD for a colonel and walking around in the heat is tiring.

But you wouldn't know about any of that from your English major eh buddy?

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>>51958598
>I am trying to imagine a game system that wouldn't have any dump stats.
Then you get a game without specialization. Dump stats are a consequence of the teamwork-oriented nature of TTRPGs. At their core, RPGs (electronic, tabletop or otherwise) are all about a group of youngsters with clear flaws and specializations that cover eachother's weaknesses and are greater than the sum of their parts.

>>51963260
What? Nothing stops you from putting more points into stat X over stat Y, you'll just feel it even while you still benefit from your investment into the other stat.

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>>51958598
3d6, straight down the line.

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>>51963229
I remember someone saying that endurance is the most important quality for a soldier.

Also combat gear was heavy as hell also in arctic conditions and we were just in training, not in a war zone.

>>51963229
>mfw plate carriers are uncomfortable in heat
>mfw gear is heavy as fuck
>mfw every scifi setting ever has soldiers head to toe in armor and heavy shit

>>51963287
S'truth.

That's why they have them dress up in all that shit and go on long ass marches instead of packing them full of protein shakes and parking them in a power cage every day.

>>51963302
Many just put some techno-magical Air Conditioning in their absurd space armor.

I like that CJ Carella's Warp Marines wore a reasonably normal kit, combined with force fields. Good to see that working on Rifts didn't make his ideas of guns and armor as retarded as Uncle Kev's.

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Dumpstats are a consequence of the game being combat focused. Only when optimum combat performance isn't the goal, you'll have points going to other places.

>>51964039
You can dump STR on a bard and be a social powerhouse.

Dump stats are the result of the game mechanics encouraging dumping stats.

>>51963229
>My kit in Afghanistan was almost 30lbs. I take it you don't understand fatigue
Not him, but plate and mail were nowhere near are taxing to wear as modern body armor.
They distributed the weight more evenly over the entire body, making it far less taxing to wear than modern armor. Add to that the fact that most soldiers gear is heavier than most plate armor, and saying "My gear in afganistan was heavy" isn't really good evidence for plates effect on the wearer.

Don't get me wrong, plate is going to decrease your ability in terms of endurance, because any form of armor will do that.

>>51964102
If your game is combat oriented, your bard will put points in stats that make him more combat effective. If charisma is the most important stat in your campaign only masochists put points in other stats.

Having all stats be useful shouldn't be some special anti min-max feature, it should be a goal in itself.

Now to encourage mroe balanced statlines, simply make it more and more expensive to increase a stat the higher you go.

>>51964392
The same is true if your game is social oriented.

Dump stats exist when there's an incentive to dump. It has nothing to do with the focus of the game.

>>51963229
>My kit in Afghanistan was almost 30lbs

That little? I had more on my back last time I went hiking.

>>51964439
Oh yeah? Well, I do standing congress with your mother every night.

>>51958598
The first edition of 7th Sea had its share of mechanical flaws but it did do remarkably well in that regard. Brawn determined your ability to resist and cause Flesh Wounds, Finesse was used for most attack rolls, Resolve determined how many Dramatic Wounds you could take before being taken out, Wits determined your defense and Panache determined how many actions you got per round.

(the criticism to that was that it mechanically encouraged people to create "boring", all around average characters because it was more disadvantageous to have a "dump stat" than it was beneficial to have a very high one).

The 2nd edition did either better or worse depending on your viewpoint since it's a very narrativist system where there's literally no mechanical difference in application between the different stats. You can roll any stat for any purpose and none of them affect any other trait, so in a certain way you could say you might as well just have "Stat A", "Stat B", "Stat C" and so on rather than anything concrete. The only caveat is that you get a bonus for using a new trait+skill combination each scene so you're incentivized not to just keep rolling your best combination.

>>51958598

Later editions of AdEva didn't really have dump stats, because they boiled the system down to just 4 core stats and had everything else be a derivative of those.

Physique generally didn't help you fight in the giant robot, but it double as the health for your squishy pilot. So a low Physique meant you passed out easy and if you ever got into a fight outside your robot you were screwed.

Intelligence was the most useful for 'do stuff' skills, so if you wanted to be able to do anything but stand around and talk you needed decent Int.

Empathy had all the interaction skills, so if you wanted to be able to talk your way past any thing you needed decent empathy.

And Synch Ratio was your connection to your giant robot, and a weak synch ratio would hold you back in a giant robot fight.

None of which are great options to dump stat to oblivion, especially since AdEva parties as not as joined at the hip as traditional dungeoncrawl parties, so being off on your own following a plot thread without backup is much more common. You can't just assume that your Athlete is going to be there to brawl for you when you need it.

>>51964439
>>51964469
No, he's right. Hikers normally carry 40-50lbs worth of supplies and equipment, depending on the nature of the hike. Just enough water and food for a day's walk normally takes a fair bunch of that.

That said, soldiers also carry very varying weights depending on their role and the circumstances. I did almost exclusively guard duty back when I served, and I didn't carry nearly as much weight as I do on the average fishing trip. Roughly 8lbs in the M4, 4-5 extra magazines, 3-4 canteens with water, tiny little first aid kit that weighs like an empty sock and if we were feeling paranoid a vest and helmet weighing MAYBE an extra 10. Conversely, someone out on a mission expected to last several days may be carrying far more. Far, far more if he's stuck with the transmitters or the machine guns or what have you.

>>51958598
Just asking. If I want to make a spell caster of some sort, why would I not dump strength and agility, and maybe even constitution, if using certain spells and abilities could out-weigh me spending points on those stats?

>>51959062
I'd contest this:
> If every attribute is important, then none of them are.
In Pathfinder when you play a monk, you really need 4 out of 6 stats to be relatively good, compared to the others where it might be 2 out of 6 stats they need.
The monk cannot wear armor or else he loses all his cool abilities, SO:
- you need dex to get AC, you really dont want armor
- you need con to get hit points, because you are not all that tanky without
- you need strength to deal damage
- you need wisdom to improve your special abilites like Ki and the DC of your stunning fist.

So with the monk here, If many stats are important but scarce, then your overall crunch is going to suffer I'd say.

>>51961712
why?

>>51961327
>>51961585
>>51964533
>>51964582

Thanks, I will check them out

>>51962480
This is exactly what I'm going for

>>51963260
>>51964426

No, I'm about trying to create more options and avoiding trap builds. Min maxing is always going to be a thing.