>Wizard shoots some fire at you and does 20d6 at 20th level

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No self respecting Barbarian would be doing that little damage. They would still be doing less, slightly offset by their ability to do so reliably. Then again, pic related is why talking about HP is kinda irrelevant.

>>51934003
That isn't what minmaxing means though lol

>>51933956
>Wizard at power level 10 fires a PL 10 Ranged Area Burst Damage fireball

>Barbarian lifts a massive hunk of earth from the ground and throws it at Wizard for Ranged area burst damage 10, or thunderclap Affliction 10 to rattle the fuck out his brains, or knock him on his ass just by stomping the ground

Feels good to play Mutants and Masterminds 3e, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

>>51933956
>I want to WIN my TTRPG

>>51934108
>>51933956
>Wizard at int 16 casts a quake, using all of his zeon and wrecks a city

>Fighter at str 16 decides that punching the floor IS a good way to also cast quake, at any moment he wants to use an indiscriminate area attack, then proceeds to slam the wizard with +absurd damage

Feels good to play anima, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

>>51933956
> Barbarian hits you with an axe and does 1d8+5 at 20th level
> 6 or 7 times every turn until the end of time

>>51934217
>it's ok casters can end any encounter ever in 1 turn 8 times a day, after all barbs can hit 6 times per turn forever.

>>51934217
How them penalties on successive attacks working out for ya? Because you're almost guaranteed to miss with half of those attacks.

>>51934276
>Half
If only, I'm a Unchained monk (full BaB and 24 Str) with 7 attacks and my % of hit against the average CA of a creature of my CR is 43%, and I have less penalties than the Barb of our group.

>>51933956
>level 20 barbarian
>one attack with a mundane axe
Shitty bait

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I use +1 hit/+2 dmg for every step of Strength, vs +1 hit/+1 dmg/+1 ac for every step of Dexterity.

Of course I would never suggest anyone else violate Sacred RAW.

>>51934247
It's only OK when they can't do it more than once a week/month and the martial's damage is fucking relevant, because when "x attacks a turn" means "Instagib target enemy" the wizard's "Instasuck target enemy" is balanced with his out of combat utility.


For this great, awesome balance, crafted by 200iq+ mensa certified chess grandmaster minds bognadoff approved, basically they could have fixed the world in about 3s, but they decided that fixing 3.5 flaws was more important, this is a SECRET SYSTEM do not, and I repeat *DONOT* tell *ANYONE*don't play 3.5PF.

>>51933956
Going to use Pathfinder as an example, because it's what I have the most recent experience with. Obligatory disclaimer that dealing direct damage at level 20 really isn't efficient for a 20th level wizard. Straight blasts are quickly outpaced by spells capable of changing the courses of entire battles, and when you really need to take down a single opponent, save-or-dies are more readily available at that level. But sure, there are spells (starting at around 7th level) which will deal d6 per CL in damage to an area, to a max of 20d6, averaging 70 damage to each individual which fails their save and doesn't have resistance to that energy type and doesn't have improved evasion.

Meanwhile, a basic Barbarian-
Str: 18 (pt buy) + 2 (race) + 6 (item) + 5 (level up increases) + 4 (rage, or equivalent bonuses from the Unchained version) = 35 str, with a mod of +12
Two-handing a +5 greataxe with power-attack, means a damage of 1d12 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement bonus) + 12*1.5 (two-handing str) + 18 (two-handing power-attack) = 1d12 + 41, for an average of 47.5 damage per attack. Now you get four attacks/round in a full attack.

Of course both examples can be further optimized for damage, but this was a bare-bones example. Sure a blaster Wizard will put out more damage, but the DPR of a high-level barbarian can still be respectable. The Wizard's real advantage is the sheer number of OTHER things he can do.

>>51933956
Barbarian hits you 4 times, and it'll be for 4((2d6)+9+5) {80} vs 20d6 {70}.

The barbarian never runs out, either.

Learn the rules, memester.

>>51934247
What kind of level 20 campaign are you running where an entire encounter dies to 20d8 fire damage? Most enemies of that level will eat that shit for breakfast and come back for more.
Alternatively, just put more than 8 encounters in per day. Put some time pressire in to limit the wizard's naps if its still causing you trouble. The wizard's weakness is his resources, if you don't exploit that how do you plan to challenge your players?

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I genuinely don't understand in which scenario a lvl 20 barbarian is only dealing 1d8+5 damage.

>>51934347
Which has a 20th level Barbarian with 24 strength dealing 1d12+20 x2 attacks, assuming no criticals or magic weapons involved.

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>>51934003
>When first post is best post....

Also reminder wizards<CoD

>>51934392
You should try to take bonus to hit into account
your {80} damage is much less when you realize you hit with a -5 on the second attack, -10 on the third and -15 on the fourth.

>>51934392
The Barbarian is also not going to hit with 2 out of those 4 attacks against something appropriate to his level unless her gets really fucking lucky.

>>51934413
Those in where the caster doesn't use damage spells and actually ends the encounter

>>51934108
>>51934206

>Will an entire seismic plate out of existence because it annoyed you

Feels good to play Nobilis, where physical strength means nothing.

>All this talk about DPR
Yep, dealing 80 damage a round is relevant vs things that have 200-400 HP and have NO PENALTIES for fighting at 1hp or full hp.


Why do D&Drones always forget this fact?

>>51934417
>Barbarian moved.
>Barbarian is using a nonmagical longsword (no idea why).
>Barbarian didn't put ASIs in strength.
>Barbarian isn't raging.

I mean, you have to try real hard to make yourself that shit as a barbarian.

At that point you may as well compare it to a wizard casting sleep and wondering why it doesn't effect CR 20 opponents.

>>51934417
5e

>>51934003
>transforming spells
>damage+
>wizard transforming to do more damage than a barbarian
Not if the barbarian is build competently.

>>51934479
>Play nobilis
>A seismic plate, the entirety of a fucking big chunk of ruck annoys you

Anon... you have explaining to do.

>>51934108
>>51934206
Well OP, you now have two better options to work with.

>>51934484
I never said DPR was relevant. I just pointed out that the barbarian isn't doing 1d8+5 a round unless he's willfully retarded.

Why would you ever cast fireball and not gate or maze or something useful

>>51934464
>>51934445
I mean by this logic the wizard is going to miss his fireball sometimes too, if we're taking that into account.

>not capping leveling at level 6

>>51934510
>Barbarian deals 200 damage in one turn
>Wizard cast baleful polimorph, turns 500 HP monster into 1 HP frog, steps on it
That's what
>Transforming spells
>Damage+
Means

>>51934479
Actually make that three.

>>51934493
So extreme cherry picking. I mean I understand it's a b8 thread but damn, it still would have worked with a single attack at say 1d12+40 or something.

>>51934504
You're shitting me.

>>51934471
We're talking about damage spells though. Utility spells are a different issue entirely.

>>51934541
Fireball doesn't "miss", the enemy saves, and it will still deals half damage, while if your Barb misses deals 0

>>51934572
Then magic missile with fell drain metamagic

>>51934550
>Starting below level 10.

>>51934573
unless the enemy has evasion

>>51934533
Okay so I can
>Be big dumb brute who deals LOTTO DAEMG
vs
>Be big dumb cleric who deals LOTTO DAEMG an casts LOTTO SPELLS
vs
>Be big dumb hippy who deals LOTTO DAEMG and casts LOTTO SPELLS and has a BIG ANGRY ANIMAL
vs
>Sissy girly faggy wizzy who says "DM, DM, may I may I? Pretty pweeeety pwease?"

Gee, I guess being a skirt wearing sissy is OP!

>>51934541
You don't need to make an attack roll for Fireball. It's an area of effect.

>>51934550
Barbarian gets 2 attacks of 1d12+10 all day long, wizard gets 2 fireballs per day for 6d6 with save

>>51934573
The barb does get 6 or 7 attempts to hit though, usually with advantage (depending on build).
We've opened up a whole new can of worms here, just damage was complicated enough.

>>51934602
Wizards get metamagic these days?

>>51934566
Hey. If you're going to whine about something; you should know what you're talking about.

>>51934616
As often as enemies being immune to slashing, bludgeoning and piercing damage (which fucks the barbarian up), so I'm safe assuming it won't happen significantly.

>>51934573
So, assuming level 20 game, against relatively common opponents. By that level, virtually everyone has some form of resistance to fire. AC scales horribly, so the Barbarian is likely to be hitting even on a number of his iteratives against targets that aren't either monsters with assloads of it or characters with silly levels of AC optimization. And if it's a monster with tons of AC, odds are it has spell resistance as well, at that level.

>>51934636
>6-7 attacks
>>51934654
>metamagic these days
Choose an edition and stay with it, is pretty hard to counterarguee when you bounce from one to another and mix several to make a point

In 5e a barb can't make more than 4 attacks at 20th level (assuming you have haste)
In 5e only sorcerer has metamagics, but not in the same way as 3.5
In 3.5 a barbarian has that many attacks sure, (6-7) but the wizard has metamagics that will make the barb blush

>>51934504
Bullshit

>>51934618
>Wizard says please
Hardly, dumbass.

The reason wizard is good is because he has to do the least "mother may I". The fighter has to do the most. "Can I have decent gear? Is this skill roll high enough?"

The wizard is good because he has rules that state *what happens* in explicit terms.

>>51934566
That is it, but OP's leaving out that the fire the wizard's shooting at you is boosted by casting it at a higher level, which uses up a higher-level spell slot than the 1st or 3rd level one it usually would, and that secondly it's a barbarian hitting with a normal axe once instead of twice like it'd be able to once it hits level 5, and that he's not even raging, which is the major feature of the class. Another thing is that the barbarian's real strength is in resistance and being able to take a hit, represented by it having the d12 hit die, Unarmored Defense increasing his AC partially with CON, and the various traits he'd pick up along the way. OP is also disregarding how wizards don't get many class features in order to balance out how many different spells they're able to cast, and how no DM would have a lv20 party where the Barbarian doesn't have magic anything.

>>51934632
OP is whining about 3.5. (where a lv 20 fireball does 20d6)
Whining Badly.

>>51933956
Edition?

If 5e I'm more mad about
>swinging a small piece of metal deals 1d6+5
>trowing a 3 ton boulder deals 1d4+5

My warlock in 3.5 dealt 24d6 (per attacks, he had two) at 15th level, and that's not even hardly impressive.

>>51934206
>>51934108
>wizard with int 14 casts fireball, investing 3 turns and considerable fatigue to prepare a deadly attack
>fighter at str 14 fights brutal close combat where every strike is a terrible wound

Feels good to play GURPS, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

>>51934720
>H-hawdly d-dum-dum!!!
t. cuckwizard


You have NO arguments, CoD>Pissy wizzy who only exists in "I-i-f-if!" C can become a BETTER fighter while also being a wizard, D can become TWO better fighters while *ALSO* being a fucking wizard.

But nobody talks about this because nobody on /tg/ has an IQ above 90 except those of us who do and understand wizards are dogshit when CoD and many other classes are much, much better.

>>51934756
I would agree with you but I highly doubt any DM would actually have a 3 ton boulder deal that damage. I'd argue that the initial improvised weapon damages are just for baseline attack values. Really any DM that doesn't actually stop to think about something strictly refers to the book isn't thinking things through entirely and is limiting the motivation his players have to be creative and use the scenery.

>>51934541
>being this new to any form of RPG ever

Are you real, or are you an astral construct, presumably summoned 30 seconds ago by a wizard who actually knew things?

>>51934791
I forgot to add.
>Cleric becomes a better fighter at level 5
Nice "E-ebin 6" meme you have there.

>>51934749
3.5 stops working after level 10ish.

>>51934791
Cleric is almost as good at magic as wizard, but it's missing some of the better spells.
Druid spell list is notably crappier than the other two.

Either way, point is spells > skills and basic attacks.

>>51934808
Played in 2 different AL and in both my goliath was stuck with 1d4+Str if he threw anything, even 2 ton boulders.

>>51934826
11 is when 3.5 gets fun.

You just have to ditch the crappy classes.

>>51934863
>AL
Found your problem.

>>51934873
Fantasy HERO is the best edition of D&D.

>>51934891
Hey, you can't get more official than that. Also /5eg/ also thinks, on average, the same: 1d4+Str for anything improvised

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If you're a wizard past a certain point you literally have more than 500 options available to you and all of them are mostly stand alone effects that require no prior investment. Some of these options deal damage but others let you simply circumvent problems or create entirely new solutions. You also barely need to roll for anything since most of your powers force others to save against them. And if you ARE rolling for something 9 times outta 10 you're gonna be rolling intelligence which hey guess what you're a fucking wizard you're pumping that shit already. Oh and also because everything's powered explicitly by your LEVEL? Every time you level up ALL of your powers get stronger.

Comparatively if you're a barbarian guess the fuck what.

You're charging and you're full attacking. That's it. You'll rage in there for a buff obviously but other than that those are your options. Attempting anything else is either going to be horribly ineffective RAW or it's gonna rely on GM fiat. You're gonna be rolling a lot more since all your actions, even your utility ones, rely on you rolling. In addition you're gonna need Strength for attacking, Dexterity for Defense and Constitution for HP. And that's not even going into what certain skills might need. And as for other options?

You'll have 5 to pick from as you level up. But guess what? Because they're permanent chances are you're just gonna want the ones that make your charging, raging and full attacking better because that's already the smartest thing you can do. You don't have the flexibility to abandon one strategy and try another if something comes up that complicates it. And you better fucking stick to whatever your primary strategy is because if you decide later on you wanna alter things it's once again GM fiat or you're bust. And even if your GM lets you retrain feats, you only got 5 and AGAIN you're only going to be aiming to improve your charging, full attacking and maybe raging.

>>51934917
5e is written for "rulings over rules".

AL is about rules over rulings.

>>51934932

Oh and did I mention? Those 5 options you get as a barbarian? They DO require prior investment in something and to get something as basic as not making a certain combat maneuver utter shit you need to invest in intelligence which is otherwise useless to you and helps you in no way whatsoever.

>>51934962
Yep. Melee a shit.

>>51934853
>this is what never played 3.5 sissy wizzy fanboys ACTUALLY believe
Here is how it works
>We're playing ebin 6!
I'm playing cleric, rest of the party that isn't druids please go away, you're shitters. DIVINE METAMAGIC AND FULL PLATE/RETARD MONSTER AC AND GOOD WEAPONRY NATURAL SPELL AND ALL OF OUR SPELL LISTS EACH DAY!!
>We're not playing ebin6
DIVINE METAMAGIC AND NATURAL SPELL AND GOOD HP AND BUFFS, AND CONTROL AND HEALING (lol) AND FULL RETARD AC AND ALL OF OUR SPELL LISTS EACH DAY!
vs
>D-dis guide and l-le /tg/ said it gud!!! IT GUD!!
>what u mean you no encounter for spell I has?
>Me useless?
>NO ME NO USELESS. ME NO DUM-DUM!

But yes, tell me again how your magical wizard where he gets ALWAYS the best spell for EVERY encounter and has near no fucking lasting power measures up with two guys that can get new spells each day (irrelevant of books) and not only that, but they're better martials.

>>51934978

Oh but a well optamized ranged build could surely power through most things. And with it being ranged it has an extra layer of versatility in that I can snipe enemies or circumvent gaps and stuff right?

Well unfortunately there's a 3rd level spell that just makes you immune to ranged attacks. YEP. Not resistance or anything just straight up immunity!

>>51934999
Not going to deny the power of CoDzilla, but again with the "best spell for every encounter"? is there a best spell for every situation? yes, are you going to prepare those? No, fuck no. You prepare the second best or third best which coincidentally happens to be also second best or third best for a wide variety of situations, making 10 spells worth 40 situations, instead 10 for 10. That's how you prepare with a wizard, that's how anyone who wants to play a wizard should prepare.

Can you end every encounter ever? absolutely if you're Batman, but your mission is make others life a cakewalk, that's how you spare spell slots, not outright ending the encounter, just making it a non issue.

Just lol if you don't allow your barbarian/fighter throw a nearby bench/table/log at the enemy dealing 1d10+ STR damage with Fort save for knockdown to adjacent targets.

>>51935087
Or I can play a cleric or druid, do the same and also be able to out-fight 99% of all melee classes. At pretty much any level post 5 and before 5 I'm also not useless, filled with utility and fighting power even when out of fucking spells (unlike wizards whom don't shine until later on unless you do 1 encounter a day).

Oh wow, yes wizard is so OP! Specially when it's only OP in theoretical scenarios where it all goes as he wants and his spells are perfect.

In any real game there is no reason (from a minmax perspective) to play anything but CoDzilla since gods/nature in D&D by raw literally give -1 fucks sans DM fiat.

>>51934999
>Wizards suck
Sure buddy. I don't need the perfect spell every time. I have lots of options.
>Divine metamagic and 3.5e druid.
Seriously? Why the fuck would I play 3.5? It's just shittier Pathfinder.
And in Pathfinder, cleric and druid are roughly on par with wizard. They have slightly crappier spell lists though, but are obviously better in combat, though not generally as good at combat as they were in 3.5.

>>51935251
>It's just shittier Pathfinder.
Actually, PF is slightly shittier 3.5. In 3.5 you at least have ToB to play martials, in PF you don't.

>>51935182
Core full casters are all perfectly viable.

The party isn't going to suffer in a party of cleric cleric druid wizard.

>>51935263
And lets not forget what PF did to martial maneuvers like trip/grapple/etc or how did he fuck monks by denying them all the feats that had before (improved natural strike p.e.)

>>51935263
>He doesn't play with Dreamscarred Press material.
Path of War 1&2 is way better than Book of Nine Swords.

Ultimate Psionics is better than the 3.5e psionics books

Who the fuck plays at 20th level?

>>51935307
Dreamscarred Press material is better than Paizo/WotC material

>>51935314
Nobody ever.

>>51935282
Agreed, combat maneuvers are crappier in pf, and there are a few martial feats missing, but it's not like they were *good* in 3.5.

And I'd rather Pathfinder with a couple pages of imported 3.5feats than play 3.5.

Have you tried playing literally any other tabletop game, including other D20 system games and other editions of D&D?

>>51933956
>Level 18 Ranger/Tempest Minotaur dual wields two large-sized warhammers and deals around 700 damage on a full attack

It's almost like you don't want to play make believe fantasy games, anon.

>>51935364
Probably. This is just a poorly constructed meme thread, afterall.

>>51935371
>Large+ creatures break the damage curve when handed weapons.
No shit.

>>51935363
A tripmonk or tripfighter in 3.5 was good, and you could play that and not be overly BTFO by casters

In PF isn't even viable to imagine being a tripfighter

>>51933956
If you cannot beat average 70 damage at 20th level, the problem lies in your DNA. If you canot beat average 70 damage with every damn attack, you're still sort of shit at DnD and need to get better.

>>51935423
I built one at one point. Worked okay until level 8 or so.

Cavalier. Houndmaster. Leadership (worg).

Took the teamwork feats that worked with it, and used a trip weapon polearm.

I'd trip them and my hounds all got free attacks. Each of their attacks had a chance to trip.

>>51933956
>Puny barbarian thinking he can compete on the battlefield of supergods.

Fuck off back to whatever low fantasy system you play. Shit like barbarians and fighters was not and it not and should never be competitive in high-level DnD.

>>51935515
I did a monk once with that in mind, but after 7th level I realized I wasted like 5 feats, I couldn't beat the CMD in a reliable way after that. Maybe if I had access to more material (was 1pp only game and not even every book was allowed, only PHB, Ultimates, Advanced guides and 1 or 2 campaign guides)

>>51935363
Dirty Trick is amazing if your DM isn't a drooling retard

>>51935560
You still need to beat the CMD and that's the main problem.

>>51934108
To be fair, wizards can do some truly heinous shit in that game because of how wide open magic is as an array and they're REALLY powerful on the fly thanks to power stunts. Boost Immunity(Physical) with Total Fade in your array is pretty horrible to deal with as a barbarian, and entirely possible for PL 10 Wizards to have as the primary power on their array(it costs 60 PP).

But at least martials have access to a huge variety of effects even without dipping into actual superpowers so they're not limited to punch man, and unlike in 3.5 they might be able to do something about it without begging the DM.

>>51935159
>Making improvised weapons better than actual weapons

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>>51935722
>not making your improvised weapons better than actual weapons

>>51935602
Not <L8, or in a campaign with humanoid opponents.

>>51935830
Humanoid opponents naturally have a lot less HP than monsters do so it's still easier to just kill them in a round than to inflict a status effect that may or may not stop them.

>>51935722
Full round action to use, and every single scene won't have a fucking 600 kg boulder to throw at people. What are you gonna do, carry it with you?

>>51935885
If it's good and you have the carrying capacity for it, hell yes. Failing that, cast Shrink Object.

More like
>Level 20 barbarian while raging does 5d6+28 damage 8 times per round while flying with his rage power and +5 large battleaxe at +40 to hit and total DR 11/-.

>>51934550
Why level 6? Genuinely curious.

>>51936044
A grittier feel, avoiding the meta problem where any ruler would have to be a high level adventurer or be overtaken by one. No teleport or narrative breaking spells outside of mcguffins, resurrection remains a miracle, and a fully grown dragon can only be overtaken by extreme planning or a whole army.

Also, martials and casters have relatively similar power level. Full BABs are the only ones with 2 attacks per round by default, full casters can cast 2-3 level 3 spells per day.

>>51936044
Is roughly the point in where core casters start to outclass every other class (6th-7th level if you aren't a blumbling retard), and mainly why exist something called Epic6 (subsystem in where your level cap is 6)

>>51936121
>>51936123
Makes sense, but if you want a grittier feel or better balance, why not play a different system?

That wasn't intended to be snarky. I genuinely mean that there is probably another system better geared to a 'mud, blood and rusty iron' setting.

>>51936140
Because time invested in learning the system and/or they explicity like D&D?

>>51934184
Damn right I do.

>>51934791
Depends on which theoretical build you looked up online really

>>51936140
D&D/PF have greatest market penetration and unless you play with the same group who are willing to learn other systems, good luck finding a group for anything semi-obscure.

Once you actually own several books and are used to the rules, the inertia sets in...

It's a lot easier to just start a campaign at level 1, and if it lasts to 6 or so just continue E6.

And in terms of feel, I never liked how D&D treats things at high level. It morphs into a really badly put together superhero game that barely has any resemblance to any fantasy setting or myth.

>>51934184
No, I want to bring something meaningful to the group, if I'm literally a zero to the left that can be exchanged for anything I'm not having fun.

>>51936334
Whatcha gonna do cry about it?

>>51936350
Nah, I'll post on 4chan and wait for some (you)s

>>51936140
>>51936186
>>51936295
Over played that game. It's much easier to learn a new system than to try and tie dnd down to rust mud and blood

>>51936350
That's useless, is better to find a better group that plays different systems.

>>51934108
>Shaman with 16 Sorcery dice fires a Force 6 Fireball, dealing 6 + Net Hits damage

>Troll Street-Sammy with 16 Blades dice hits with a combat Axe, dealing 13 + Net Hits damage

Feels good to play Shadowrun, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

>>51936509
To be fair, SR5's magic is severely nerfed and one of those is resisted by something much less common.

>>51935182
Wizards have the better spell list

>>51936509
Until the shaman channels/summons a spirit and makes you look like a chump

>>51934537
This is the eternal good question. If Wizard is casting Fireball, something has already gone horribly, horribly wrong.

>>51934573
Unless anything has evasion or fire resistance (The most comon energy resistance).

>>51934720
Except Wizard just dies if someone grapples him or makes a save or two. CoD just beats the offending baddy to death, then continues breaking the rules.
CoD does everything a wizard does in a nicer outfit, and is less prone to being utterly and irrecoverably buttfucked if the party happens to wander in to an antimagic field..

>>51933956
Play GURPS

>>51934932
>you literally have more than 500 options available to you
Now pick the 20 you actually have today.

Every encounter
>Wizard casts crowd control that disables 90% of the initial group
>Cleric casts more crowd control
Once spells run out, time to sleep for 8 hours in a different dimension so there's no need for a guard!
>this is fun

>>51936864
an average of 6 spells per spell level means more around 50. And even if it was 20 it's still 19 more than the barbarian and you can change them every day,

>>51936852
Or HERO

>>51936871
So.....

Don't play dnd?

>>51936871
>Once spells run out, time to sleep for 8 hours in a different dimension so there's no need for a guard!
I really hate faggots who think Rope Trick doesn't need a guard. It literally forces you into a corner you can't get out of while enemies laugh and throw alchemist fire into the hole.

>>51934387
This, and a barb doesn't have to worry so much about using up all of his resources on the first fight of the day. My group doesn't let the wizard's spells dictate the day's plan ever since we spent like three days having one big fight in the morning then waiting for his spells to come back.

A good GM can keep the pressure on enough to force the wizard to economize, which balances them quite well.

>>51933956
>My dick does 20d6 to your mom's ass at 20th level

>Your dad's dick does D4-1 to your mom's ass at 20th level

>>51937169
>Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it.

>>51937267
Sure but:

>Exit rope trick.
>Literal army of orcs waiting for the spell to end.

>>51937363

how did they know you were there? it's invisible

>>51937386
Well, they did encounter a magical, immovable rope. I would be suspicious of that shit.

>>51937444

you can pull the rope inside the dimensional pocket, then there's nothing visible left

>>51937449
>The rope cannot be removed or hidden.

No you can't.

>>51937489
>Walk inside an orc broom closet/ rope storage facility.
>Cast Rope Trick

>>51937489
>Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space.

>>51937556
Is that in the 3.5 spell? Because I'm looking at the PFsrd version and it literally doesn't say that.

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>>51937675

>>51937675
5e
>You touch a length of rope that is up to 60 feet long. One end of the rope then rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground. At the upper end of the rope, an invisible entrance opens to an extradimensional space that lasts until the spell ends.

>The extradimensional space can be reached by climbing to the top of the rope. The space can hold as many as eight Medium or smaller creatures. The rope can be pulled into the space, making the rope disappear from view outside the space.

>Attacks and spells can’t cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space, but those inside can see out of it as if through a 3-foot-by-5-foot window centered on the rope.

>Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.

If a 20th level wizard is shooting fireballs then he's retarded.

>>51934437
Their spells are actually pretty shitty, though. The only thing that matters is better Fort save against Wizard death spells.

>>51934504
I don't even like 5e but you're full of shit.

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>>51937719
Explain the discrepancy. Because either that line was erratad away, or the srd is wrong.

>>51937910

you linked pathfinder, I linked 3.5

>>51937945
Well, I feel dumb.
This is why fighting over the shit is retarded.

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>>51934932
>>51934962
This is why my setting/system has had caps on how many spells a caster can know. In fact, knowing a single basic spell costs as much as being an experienced hunter/woodsman, a decent pickpocket, a reasonably good acrobat, or having an excellent poker face. Moreover, spells don't overlap at all with mundane abilities - magic can't make you invisible, it can't charm or dominate people, it can't make you better at jumping or climbing, and it can't scry or divine answers to questions.

Magic mostly covers elemental effects (often in areas of effect), healing, inflicting and removing status effects, and basic utility magic like Message, Detect Magic, Identify, and so forth. The more powerful and obscure effects such as teleportation, summoning monsters, incapacitating enemies instantly, those aren't options players can start with.

In return, every martial character gets a fair number of combat and non-combat options by default, and not just passive abilities. Everyone gets combat maneuvers they can pull off, making warriors the kings of single-target damage, repositioning enemies, punishing enemy movement and actions, and exploiting status effects on their foes. They're never without options and those options are actually useful, both in and out of combat.

>>51933956
>Barbarian hits you with an axe and does 1d8+5 at 20th level
I mean casters tend to be stronger but a barbarian should be doing more along the lines of 1d12+22 without any magical weapons (which they should have at level 20). Sure even with extra attack they are doing less damage on average (57 vs 70) but they should also have more than double the wounds of the wizard with resistance against much or almost all damage.

>>51938402
In 5E a level 20 raging barbarian with 24 Strength only does about 1d12 + 14 damage a hit, only +10 when not raging, and gets two attacks per round. A level 20 evocation wizard with 20 Intelligence does 4d10+5 damage with the humble FIre Bolt cantrip, and unlike the barbarian the wizard doesn't have to expend any resources to deal that damage. Stats I've seen indicate that players tend to hit about 65% of the time, assuming that and factoring in the advantage to attack barbarians get, the barbarian does about 35 DPR and the wizard does 18 DPR. This is without factoring in feats like Great Weapon Fighting and all that though, but they're somewhat optional and we're figuring the characters are spending their ASI on stats only.

So you're indeed right that barbarians do about twice the damage wizards do each round... as long as the wizard is not casting spells. The humble Fireball spell, which a 20th level wizard can cast once a short rest without spending a spell slot, does 8d6 on a failed save and can easily hit 6+ enemies. Just a few of those spells dropped can put the Wizard leaps and bounds ahead of the barbarian in raw damage.

The weakness of wizards at low levels is their lack of hit points and armour class, but by mid levels that problem evaporates. They can get armour through multiclassing or feats, or just cast Mage Armour, and investing even somewhat in Constitution makes them decently durable. Honestly, a Barbarian needs STR and CON, a Wizard can invest equally in INT and CON and be nearly as durable.

IMO I don't think wizards should be 'fixed' by being fragile, I think they should be fixed by not overshadowing the other classes in terms of power and flexibility.

>>51933956
Imagine a monk who's leagues below Barb

>all this griping about characters you aren't interacting with in games you'll never play ran by GMs who don't exist
So when's the last time you sad-sacks have ever enjoyed your 'hobby'?
Are you sure you're not just here out of spite and self-loathing?
My I suggest you go for a walk and enjoy a glass of ice water?

>>51938834
I run two weekly campaigns, plus an episodic campaign for when some people can't make the more serialized main sessions. When I'm not GMing for my group the other players run their own campaigns for the rest of us, so nobody ever gets tired of GMing. I'm not sure if you're trolling or just projecting, friend, but I'm certainly not alone, lots of us are in weekly games. And no, thank you, I just finished a 10 km run and taking a break before bed, that fat neckbeard meme is about 6 years out of date.

>playing 3.PF

>>51934511

The seismic plate under the Pacific had moved slightly, as seismic plates sometimes do, causing an earthquake and a following tsunami that killed an NPC whose death I happened to witness, got upset, walked right up to that seismic plate and lost it. Literally forced it into being lost in darkness and terror, which resulted in additional hijinks such as most islands and a large part of the landmass over that particular area sinking.

In other words, it was tuesday.

>>51936368
Become a monk so you can embrace the true enlightenment of futility

>>51933956
>Wizard gets hit by 20D6 fireball, caught before buffing himself
>Is perma-dead

>Barbarian gets hit by 20D6 fireball
>Is fine, proceeds to smack caster in the face until he dies

>Wizard takes 10 damage
>Unable to cast any spells next turn

>Barbarian takes 100 damage
>Is fine, continues to smash things

>Wizard runs out of spells halfway through a dungeon

>Barbarian continues to smash things

They both have different uses, strengths, weaknesses.

>>51938625
>unlike the barbarian the wizard doesn't have to expend any resources to deal that damage.
spells per day tho. You're gonna run out of spells eventually. The barbarian never runs out of smack-down

>>51939025
Actually, unless your party has a metric ton of healing potions a Barbarian's hit points will never last long enough for his DPR to catch up to the Wizard past level 4 in 3.PF and 5E. The Barbarian's higher hit points also mean nothing when he's practically useless in non-combat situations while the wizard has dozens of utility effects. Any day that doesn't involve combat, or that only has one or two fights, is a day the Wizard can do two dozen useful things the Barbarian couldn't do in an hour... each.

Also,
>implying that the wizard doesn't have buffs before combat
>implying that the wizard can't counterspell the fireball
>implying that the wizard is close enough to the enemy barbarian to be charged
>implying that the wizard doesn't have contingent teleportation and clones as safety nets

>>51939051
Hey, at very low levels when the adventuring day is 20 rounds of combat long and the wizard has three spells, the Barbarian is doing pretty alright for himself. At higher levels, even in 5E with reduced spell slots, when the adventuring day is STILL 20 rounds of combat long and the wizard has ten spells, the tide has turned. Mid to high level characters will never last long enough on hit points (and hit dice if in 5E) to get to that mythical space where the Barbarian is fighting fit and the wizard has zero spells. If you give the party fifty healing potions you could argue that you could also give the wizard spell scrolls of equal usefulness and then he'd also avoid that weakness from lack of resources.

Moreover, if the wizard doesn't conserve his spells and burns them all out early in the day.. that's totally fine! He's trading late-day usefulness to save the whole party out on hit points and resources they'd lose if those enemies lived longer. Same principle why healing spells suck in D&D and why clerics are better off murdering enemies with their spells and only healing when absolutely necessary.

>>51939025
>Wizard gets hit by 20D6 fireball, caught before buffing himself

If the Wizard is engaged with another Wizard who's just throwing fireballs at him and still loses, the player is just brain damaged.

>>51939051
Cantrips can be cast A L L D A Y brah. They are level 0 spells that you have infinite numbers of.

3.5 had reserve spells and pathfinder had cantrips, as does 5E.

>>51939239
>unless your party has a metric ton of healing potions
by the time you're level 20, the cleric has enough of the "Heal" spell that the barbarian is probably not going to run out of hitpoints during a single combat

"oh you're down to 1 HP? - *poof* - now you're back up to 350"

>Barbarian's higher hit points also mean nothing when he's practically useless in non-combat situations
Like I said, They both have different uses, strengths, weaknesses. Barbarian is good for non-combat strength related things like bashing in doors, lifting rocks, jumping, climbing, swimming, etc.

OP kind of specified a combat environment though.

>>51939549
Its an example. A wizard can't take as much damage as a barbarian. And he's pretty much fucked if he ever lets himself be caught in combat. 1 good hit from a troll or something and wizard is bye bye.

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>>51939874
There are limits to level 0 level spells. At least in 3.5 which I'm used to.

Notice pic related. The level 0 spells are not listed as infinite.

>>51939939
>A wizard can't take as much damage as a barbarian.

If a level 20 Wizard is ever in a position where he's at risk of dying from HP damage, he's doing something severely wrong.

Plus spells like Blur exist to make them have just a straight chance to ignore attacks, regardless of their AC.

>>51939982
>he's doing something severely wrong
sometimes its the situation, not the PC.

For example, party is sprung at night, wizard is unprepared, fails his listen checks to wake up. rest of the party is attempting to hold off some demons, barbarian is killing them left and right, trying to save the wizard, who finally awakes, but one gets through. single hit on the wizard, he's unconscious.

The whole point of D&D is everyone has different strengths and works together.

>>51940016
>level 20
>Wizard is caught unprepared

So as I said, he's doing something severely wrong

Wizards have to prepare their spells, correct?

I understand their vast utility, the wide range of effects they can create, but all those useful spells are meaningless if they aren't prepared ahead of time.

So a wizard is going to do great in a situation where he knows what to expect and can prepare accordingly, but if he's going into a situation blind or faces an unexpected encounter he may find many of the spells he has prepared useless.

Having gone through the thread I can see this is a point that hasn't been properly discussed. Everyone's talking about the wizards (and cleric/druid) wide variety of spells as though they always have access to all of them. But they don't.

>>51939939
>Barbarian is good for non-combat strength related things
Not really. You can't afford to throw rage uses at noncombat issues so it comes down to natural STR and magic items. Turns out Druids, or really anyone with a Polymorph spell, can do that too, and a hell of a lot better at that.

>>51940111
>he may find many of the spells he has prepared useless.
We call that a bad Wizard. If you don't know what you're going to face, pick effects that are universally useful and spells that aren't reliant on saves in addition to a handful of silver bullet SoLs. It's really not that difficult.

>>51940111
You don't really need all of them. Wizards get 2 spells every time they level up just for leveling up.

Plus there's a lot of spells that, while they aren't the hyper-specialized spells, but there's also plenty of general purpose spells like Fly, Teleport, and Invisibility that Wizards can prepare that are basically always useful.

Best way to do Wizard is leave a few spell slots open(I usually leave around 5-6 unprepared at higher levels) with the rest filled with said general purpose stuff. Then once I have a good idea of what I'll be dealing with, I stop for a few minutes to fill those empty slots.

>>51940158
Doesn't spreading yourself thin like that counter the very idea behind this thread? Keeping a larger variety of spells ready hinders their ability to be the OP game changers so many people take them for.

One of the major talking points for the "wizards solve everything" camp is that they have a spell for any situation. But not having that spell prepared, or having a bunch of spell slots filled with things that could have been useful but aren't, greatly reduces their utility.

>>51940165
That's a good idea, leaving some slots open to fill with more situation specific options. The major downside I can see with it is the need to have someone to help you in case your first hint of what's to come is a combat encounter.

Be aware though, that at high levels the number of beings with True Seeing skyrockets. Invisibility effects really start to drop off in usefulness in the tough encounters where they'd be most needed.

>>51933956
3.5 has many problems but that's not one.

>>51940407
this, its mostly the save or die or save and perma dominate shit that really ruins all kinds of crap.

>>51940387
>The major downside I can see with it is the need to have someone to help you in case your first hint of what's to come is a combat encounter.

That's what the general purpose spells I actually do prepare are for, to get me through the first bit of the day until I know what specific spells would help me out.

>>51933956
ITT: everyone talks about D&D as if it's definitely positively 100% a catch-all for every single edition despite the vast differences in everything between OD&D to 5e.

>>51934551
>Baleful Polymorph
>Retains its class level/HD
The 500 HP monster would still have 500 HP, it would just be in the shape of a frog.

>>51940632
That's their secret. They're always wrong about how the spells they complain about work.

>>51940690
No? Pretending that Dazing Spell + Sacred Geometry doesn't work does nobody a service except for people who actually want to get away with using it.

>>51939970
He did specify that 3.5 has reserve feats

>>51940956
>doesn't know how spells work
kek

>>51941205
We've had this discussion before, you can fuck right off.

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>>51941347

>>51938625
>A level 20 evocation wizard with 20 Intelligence does 4d10+5 damage with the humble FIre Bolt cantrip, and unlike the barbarian the wizard doesn't have to expend any resources to deal that damage.
The barbarian has to expend a rage which can last an entire fight, recharge on a short rest, and at level 20 he never runs out of rages. After level 6 or 12 you shouldn't be too worried about running out of rages unless you are terrified of ever taking significant damage. Seriously who gets into 5 or 6 major fights between each short rest?

Beyond that barbarian and wizard fill different roles, if you want to be DPS don't be barbarian, barbarians are meant to be tanks with 240+ hp at level 20. Barbarians stand between the party and the enemy so an enemy dragon can maul him while the party blows it up or hacks it apart. Seriously a hill dwarf barbarian with the tough feat can have 345 hp and resistance to all damage except psychic damage. Even if he doesn't bother to dodge he can survive 9 or 10 average meteor swarms.

Beyond that if wizards are really so OP just take 3 levels in cleric or bard or something and cast silence, wizard can't do the verbal component of any spells in that area and is much much weaker.

>>51934504
If they're using a base longsword onehanded at level 16 proficiency with 10 STR. Without critting. Or the extra attack. Or raging.

They should be doing 2d12+6+7+6(with advantage) with an additional 3d12 on a crits.

So yeah, you're full of shit.

>>51941675
No you are

>>51941675
What if this is a world without magic items?

Would suck for the wizard though, no way to get a magic grimoire so he would only have the spells he gained by leveling up, let alone the lack of wands and scrolls. Lack of material components would mean not being able to cast 95% of spells.

>>51942744

material components aren't always magic items

>>51942841
They would exist; bits of charcoal, a flawless jade or fresh rose petals would still be around but they wouldn't be usable to cast spells since they would contain no usable magic.

>>51942874
>bat guano is magical

>>51942874

might as well just say spellcasting doesn't exist in this world then

>>51933956
So... this will doo nothing, but 5e Berserker Barbarian at level 20, and wielding a Greataxe, does 3 attacks per turn, raging adds a +4 damage bonus, and their cap ability is to increase their strength and con scores and caps by 4, for a total of of 24, giving them a potential +7 to strength.

That's (1d12+11)*3, or an average of 52.5 damage per turn, and a maximum of 69. But wait, there's more: They also get the ability two add up to two more damage die when they crit, so on a crit they roll 4d12(5d12 if you're a half-orc)

But honestly, that's not what Barbarians do in this edition. That's enough damage for them to keep up, but their real role is to be the big loud target that soaks up damage. They're doing all of this consistently and soaking up more damage than anyone in the party should be able to handle.

Now... Fighters are the ones who get to do some serious melee damage, especially with Two-handed.

>>51942895
If you can point out what element in bat guano causes spontaneous generation of a giant explosion where people point at, go ahead. Otherwise yes, bat guano is magical in settings where it can be used to cast fireball.

>>51933956
assume the target is a 10ft cube, with infinite health, 0 AC, no resistances or weakness, auto-fails all saves, but is immune to critical hits

Round 1
>Barbarian makes 2 attacks with a greataxe while raging for a total of 2 X (1d12 + 11) or 35 damage
>wizard casts meteor swarm for 20d6 + 20d6 or 140 damage

Round 2
>Barbarian does the same thing
>wizard casts Lv 8 fireball for 13d6 or 45.5 dmg

this wizard has more burst damage, but the barbarian can deliver more reliable damage, and the ability to remove doors from their hinges while "knock" will eventually run out, especially if there is a shortage of long rests

>>51937067
Not forgetting wands of 3rd level or lower spells, meaning you don't need to take up slots for commonly used effects.

Also not forgetting pearls of power, which let you cast an extra of one of your prepared spells per day.

Also not forgetting rings of spell storing. Or rings of counterspell.

and on and on.

>>51943176
good thing the DM is unlikely to hand out magic items like candy right?

>>51937724
Wait, so you actually need to climb it to get in?

well there's the nerf right there. Skill checks abound for that wizard to get his 5'6" asthmatic ass up a 50 foot rope.

>>51943077
Magic comes from wizard, and 0 gold spell components are relics of a by-gone era and mostly inside jokes. Guano is a rich a source of nitrogen which could be used for explosives. A mirror, lemon and wire used for scrying are a television set. Literally all spell ingredients are either referencing genre cliches, are lame inside jokes, or a real resource that attempts to limit the usage of the spell like diamonds for rez.

>>51943194
He shops at Adventuremart™: "where you can get quality magic items for less!"™

>>51943227
>Magic comes from wizard
Unless you can point out the magic gland that secretes magic, no it does not.

>>51943194
If i would know that ahead of time, i'd take crafting for wands. Its not like wizards actually need anything in the way of feats. sure, metamagic and shit helps, but its icing.

As for pearls of power, if the DM gives even one out, thats that much more utility you can get.

There's a point where the Wizard is still more powerful, even without magic shit. What are you gonna do, give the rest of the party sick loot, but leave the wizard high and dry just because he chose a class with options? That'd be a fucking dick move.

the original assumption was a level 20 anyways, which means enough gold to get a kingdoms worth of magic items.

>>51943245
>there's no such thing as a nugget on a chicken therefore chicken nuggets cannot be chicken

>>51935603
Boost and Total Fade aren't familiar to me, as I play 3e.

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>>51943282
>may contain up to 50% real chicken

>>51936864

That's still way more options and potential power than a martial character will EVER have.

>>51940615
>ITT: D&D fanboys sperg out like autistic retards because they are
FTFY

>>51943364
well yeah, the other 50% is breading. Duh.

>>51943045
Fighter gets to attack 4 times in 1 round, which means four Greataxe attacks per round(1d12+5)*4 average of 46 damage per round. Great-weapon Fighting, however, increases that average by roughly .5 per attack, raising the average to 48, and the maximum damage to 68

But wait, there's more: Battle Master gets to add their weaboo fightan dice to any attack if they so choose, which are d12 by level 20, which means that for one round suddenly their Average damage is 70, and the maximum damage is 116.

Not to mention the Fighter's action surge, which let's them take that attack action again, letting them do 8 attacks for 1 turn.

Now, this is where feats come in, for both Barbarian and Fighter: Great-Weapon Master lets you take a -5 penalty on the to-hit, in order to add 10 damage to any attack.

So, Battle Master, for one turn, can, using Action Surge, taking a -5 penalty to hit on all attacks, and using all six of their superiority die(7 if you take another feat) can deal an Average of 188 damage, and a maximum of 288 damage.

>>51943470
Actually it was soy and unidentified animal.

>>51943659
Learn to take a joke, anon.

>>51936509
Every wizard i played in SR had at least 15 dice in automatics.

>You see, Ivan
>The best combat spell
>Is boolit.

>>51943729
I played a mage in Shadow Run: Hong Kong, the mission where the player finds an Ares Prototype Laser Rifle was the biggest moral question in the game. Keep a LASER RIFLE or give it to some noob runners.

>>51943788
>give stolen experimental technology to some noobs
Won't Ares come kill them like right away?

>>51943788
>giving top-notch equipment to noob runners

These fuckers are just gonna attract unwanted attention running around with that thing. Taking the rifle for yourself is objectively the moral choice.

>>51943788
>>51943816
>>51943827
What if you are a noob runner yourself?

Then the question just becomes "Do i want this rifle, or do i give it to them?"

>>51943858
You can (somewhat) trust yourself.

you cannot trust other runners to not get caught and reveal your involvement.

>>51943885
Fair enough. Honestly, i'd just keep it hidden till the heat dies down.

>>51943471
Which is halved when you take AC into account and cannot persist beyond a single round because it's dependent on literally blowing everything you've got. It's really, really sad for a game that claims to have killed magic item dependency.

>>51941675
>You should have the best magic items or even magic items
No, YOU are full of shit, go back to 4e or 3.PF, GM has no fucking obligation to give you magic items at all in 5e.

>>51943729
cyka blyat, Vladimir. Might you of casting us a spell?

>>51943245
In the East Indies people believe magic comes from the appendix. They even have guys called Witch Doctors who cure witches by removing their appendix. True fact.

>>51939970
His example specified 5e, which has unlimited cantrips.

>>51943077
Bat guano was used to make gunpowder since forever.

>>51945449
>GM has no fucking obligation to give you magic items at all
ftfy

>>51933956
>Wizard shoots some shitty fire at me.
>Block it with my chest
>Leap up and grab that nerd out of the air
>Break his neck when I skydrive super suplex him into the ground for over 200 damage.

Supplimentals exist for a reason, faglord.

>tfw you just reflect the fireball back at the wizard by yelling at the spell so strong that it pushes the spell away
>tfw you enter a barbarian rage and bitch slap the wizard so hard he gets a permanent mark on his forehead showing that you beat his ass, and the mark makes him feel pain whenever you're nearby.
>tfw spellcasting piece of shit thinks he's tough shit so you hurl your antimagic greataxe through all his abjurations and cut his face off on turn 1 because MAGIC SUCKS.
>tfw the wizard gets the great idea to banish you to another plane and you conquer it and return as Doomguy
>tfw you get trapped in a forcecage so you just shove your arms and legs through the walls and use it as a suit of magic armor instead
>tfw the dm gets so sick of your bullshit that he tries to rocks fall everyone dies but you just punch the rocks out of the air
>tfw you go into planet fitness and set off the lunk alarms after you've taken a massive protien shit-log on the floor in their bathrooms and the skinny lanklet tells you that you have to leave so you pick him up and dunk him in the trashcan on the way out
>tfw you have to spend a week of community service and you're picking up trash and the lanklet passes by and throws a bottle out the window so you take his licence plate down and go to his house that evening and fuck his wife and make him a cuck

>>51933956
5e, no magical items, level 20
>Wizard has 80 HP + maybe some temporary
>Barbarian has 200 HP

>Wizard does 20d6 damage (somewhere around 70 damage)
>Barbarian does 2d12+18 damage (somewhere around 30 damage)

Note that the barbarian will only take half damage from the fireball because he is raging.
Suddenly the numbers are somewhat comparable, if you take spell limits into account and don't let your players take every long rest they want in peace.

There are other arguments to consider; but pointing to a fireball is not the way to go.

>>51946169
>>51946169
>tfw you go into planet fitness and set off the lunk alarms after you've taken a massive protien shit-log on the floor in their bathrooms and the skinny lanklet tells you that you have to leave so you pick him up and dunk him in the trashcan on the way out

My sides

>>51943090
>auto-fails all saves

That's just asking to get a save-or-die to kill the infinite HP target

>>51946090
>Ok, make an Athletics check, a Grapple check, then an Acrobatic roll to stick the landing.
>if you fail any of them you do nothing.
>Oh wait, the Wizard has Freedom of Movement, so you can't grab him anyways.
>You just jump into the air and headbutt the ground while the Wizard laughs at you.
>Also take this much falling damage.

>>51933956
>Current Year
>Still playing D&D at all

>>51934779
>Str 14
>Incredible
You have some explaining to make

>>51946169
>>tfw the dm gets so sick of your bullshit that he tries to rocks fall everyone dies but you just punch the rocks out of the air
The moment when I've genuinely kek'd

>>51946255
>Note that the barbarian will only take half damage from the fireball because he is raging.

Only if he's bear.

>>51947401
Not every game is D&D, you fool.

>>51945945
In 5e the system doesn't take into account wealth per level as in monsters aren't created to face a party with certain amount of magic items.
In 4e and 3.PF the system take very well into account wealth per level as in monsters ARE created to face a party with a certain amount of magic items and if not it's game over man game over (F for Bill)

There's a difference, sure, nobody is forcing you to play by the rules, but also nobody is forcing you to play by the rules in Chess and simply make all your pieces function as Queens.

>>51947436
Yeah, but 14 ST in GURPS is not incredible. That would be 16.
14 is what you can expect from an Arnie character in cinematic campaign. Meaning - slightly exaggerated strongman.

>>51947426
Any real barbarian goes bear.

>>51934347
That's actually a REALLY smart way of making strength more worthwhile. I'll run this by my players

>>51947448
It's 2e where it's game over, because there was no "resistant to mundane weapons", it was "Completely immune to mundane weapons"

>>51947448
4e at least has the Inherent Bonuses rule that can cut that part out.

>>51942744
That was without magical items, just a base Greataxe.

>>51948707
>Inherent Bonuses rule
Never reached that far into 4e, so sorry for my ignorance

>>51950697
HOW DARE YOU NOT GNAW THE SHIT TWINKIE JUST SO YOU CAN TASTE EVERY OUNCE OF WHAT IT'S FILLED WITH

>>51948469
in 5e wererats are immune to nonmagical, nonsilvered weapons

>>51948707
So does PF, moron.

>>51934347
>>51948415

if you're going to do that, why not make it +1 damage for every 1 STR above 10, so you can still get something on an odd number

>>51951848
There's a surprisingly not negible amount of monsters immune to martials in 5e (if they don't have magical weapons) for a game supposedly not built with magic items in mind

>>51951894
PF ones came out 2 years ago though, taking into account the game is from 2008, it took them sweet ass time to release them

>>51948415
...but str is already better than Dex for combat purposes

>>51952035
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.

>>51952087
Maybe I'm assuming the wrong system, I mean in 5e, in which no dex build has ever surpassed in damage a Str build

>b-but hand cross bow with sharpshooter and xbow xpert!
Cool, then I'll use Polearm master with great weapon master which already has been proved to outdamage handcrossbow shenanigans
>Y-you can't use two feats, only I can use two feats

>>51952087
Not him but do tell.

>>51951894
The difference is that PF's is shit because there's more to what you need magic items for than enhancement bonuses. It'll work just fine for casters, but a Fighter is going to hate himself if magic items are completely off the table and that's the replacement.

>>51937724
>wizards
>passing the str check to climb the rope
l o l

>>51952424
>up to 60 ft long
>make it 5 ft long
>Bull's strength if you still need it

>>51952468
I doubt that your average D&D player could climb a 5 foot rope, let alone your average scientist or whatever the equivalent of a wizard is

>>51953138

climbing a 5 ft rope isn't hard at all my man

>>51953437
Not if you're a normal human being, but we're talking wizards here

>>51953463

Bull's Strength

If you have str less than 10, you deserve to be punished. All you need to do is take 10 to pass, take 20 if you're completely terrible. If you're some kind of a magical man-baby I guess you'll have to scrounge up a spell slot for levitate if you want to sleep in peace.

>>51953502
Sorry you didn't prepare it

>>51934541
It should, but apparently you are a lazy ass who doesn't want to actually run the numbers correctly.

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It has been almost 10 years since 3.5 finished being the current D&D WHY DO PEOPLE STILL GIVE A FUCK ABOUT IT

>>51953586

you don't get to tell me what I prepared faggot. If I know I'm too weak to climb ropes why the fuck would I prepare Rope Trick and not Bull's Strength

>>51933956
You chose to be a pleb martial, now deal with the consequences.

>>51954108
Because you're a scrub

>>51955097
delet this

>>51952176
>Maybe I'm assuming the wrong system, I mean in 5e, in which no dex build has ever surpassed in damage a Str build

Not since the playtest at least.

>>51940111

The notion that you need to have a finely-tuned list of spells to survive an adventuring day is as much a meme as the notion that it is at all realistic the wizard runs out of spells in the average adventuring day at mid-high levels unless he's being extremely careless or the GM is forcing a treadmill.

You have a buffet table of general-purpose spells. You don't need a perfect spell list 90% of the time, just pick a bunch of useful spells, carry scrolls for corner cases and make everyone else look like idiots.

Not to mention some of the schools like summoning or illusion give you a ridiculous amount of flexibility in what exactly that slot DOES when you use it.

Although this depends on the edition. 5th Edition realized 3rd Edition was being fucking stupid about this and made it the GM's call what showed up when you summoned instead of the player's and drastically reduced the size of the spell list.

>>51940387
>Keeping a larger variety of spells ready hinders their ability to be the OP game changers so many people take them for.

No, that's exactly what makes them OP. They have a huge variety in what they can do that other classes can't even dream of. They have an answer to basically any situation, including finding out what situation they're going to be in at any given time. Remember, every wizard has access to divination.

>>51959346
>wizard is invincible because it has lots of options
>doesn't have anything at all to do against 5 stupid wraiths or something like that who jump on him after he's already cast for the turn instead of appearing over there and trying to walk over to him

SORRY MUNCHKINS YOU LOSE AGAIN

Honestly min maxing has like a couple different levels. Like, you can just be the basic min maxer, or like just breaking yourself.

My personal favorite is broken Hulking Hurlers. 28635d6+32 is just bonkers

>>51961708
What rule/rules do you have to completely twist out of raw to make that work?

>>51961725
I've done a much dumbed down version of Hulking hurling just because I like the idea of just chucking stuff, but any competent DM would stop this before it got out of hand. Though you can still technically do it

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/War_Hulking_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

>>51961745
Ah, yeah.

>>51959301
>5th Edition realized 3rd Edition was being fucking stupid about this and made it the GM's call what showed up when you summoned instead of the player's

I'm calling bullshit on this. Mearls just realized that summoning is still broken as shit and made a "we totally intended it to work this way guys, gosh, how could you ever think we we wouldn't just because the language shows no indication, haha, you so silly" FAQ/sage advice.

>>51962128
Kinda glad I don't play D&D ever anymore tbqhwyf

>>51933956
>I want my martials to be invincible, like in anime.

Ducking 4rrie weeks.

You're legit fucking retarded if you think 20d6 damage is encounter ending at 20.

That's an average of 70 damage, before saves and resistances(most high level monsters are resistant too or straight up immune to fire).

And a Barbarian will be doing way more than 1d8+5 assuming he isn't retarded. More like 2d6+80, 5 times with at least 3 hitting and that's on the weak side.

>>51963373
Also keep in mind high level monsters will have upwards of 300 hitpoints.

>>51962971
>I've never played 4e beyond Lv2

>>51962971
I never got where people think 4e PCs are invincible. I've probably had more party wipes in my 2 years of 4e than I've ever seen in 3.PF, if only because of how fucking ridiculous casters get past level 5 or so.

>>51935603
>To be fair, wizards can do some truly heinous shit in that game because of how wide open magic is as an array and they're REALLY powerful on the fly thanks to power stunts. Boost Immunity(Physical) with Total Fade in your array is pretty horrible to deal with as a barbarian, and entirely possible for PL 10 Wizards to have as the primary power on their array(it costs 60 PP).

True, M&M has some pretty huge problems. Did you know that there's nothing stopping you from applying permanency to a transparency attack? You can make someone into a living ghost forever just by touching them once! A PL8 starter character can infect the entire world with a contagious mind control effect. However it has an (admittedly clunky) way of dealing with stuff like this: the GM can veto anything on your character sheet, submitting your sheet to GM approval is actually the last step in the character creation process.

Arrays are still pure bullshit. I think "martials" can abuse it as well though. Couldn't you just have damage as the primary effect of the array and then use it for stuns and other such things?

>>51963373
> 2d6+80, 5 times with at least 3

How? legit question. I'm playing a barbarian in my current campaign. I thought as a half-orc barb with GWM the max damage would be like 6d12+19 on a crit.

>>51940632
>Baleful Polymorph
>Duration: Permanent
>The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows
>The target retains its own hit points.
>The target is treated as having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
>The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).

>duration PERMANENT

You are correct, but still wrong.
Baleful polymorph is damage+ because if the target fails its save it is effectively neutralized. It might as well be dead.
Put the new frog in a glass bottle, let it suffocate. Done.

>>51960960
>5 stupid wraiths

good luck i'm behind 5 mirror images

>>51966760
3.5 edition. At level 20 it is rather trivial to get at least +30 or +40 damage bonus per hit, and more if you're competent at character building or just google stuff.

>>51938199
Your setting is shit.

>>51966760
2-Handed Weapon=1.5 Strength to Damage
Double Power Attack Damage from 2 handed weapon
Shock Trooper
Lion Totem Barbarian Variant.
Have High Strength(Duh)
Decent magic weapon

>>51936871
Why even bother playing

>>51940165
There's also feats like Alacritous Cogitation where you can cast any spell you know for a full-round action and single spell slot, or the Spell Pool for being a mage of the arcane order, and various things.

>>51967313
Or contingencies. Or the ability to teleport away (INT mod) times a day as an immediate action because fuck getting hit, ever. Or celerity to immediately get the fuck out of dodge, blast the wraiths, or whatever else they want to do. Command undead is a 2nd level spell- and while it wouldn't let you overtly control intelligent undead, it would totally stop them. All of them, if you splurged (and spent the majority of your WBL) on a rod of chaining, or even grabbed the feat.

... I've been playing some 3.5 lately. It's been a lot of fun, though the GM is building a list of spells they want me to avoid using whenever possible.

>>51934081
sure it is

>>51973206
Pathfinder also added the Divination specialist Wizard. An extra free spell slot per spell level just for existing. It can only be divination spells, but those are still good.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/

Let's see what other abilities they get just for existing.

>Forewarned: You act during surprise rounds no matter what. You also gain an untyped bonus to initiative equal to half your level. Also at level 20, act as if you always roll a 20 on initiative rolls.

So basically immune to being surprised(ie, the things that Wizards are supposed to be weak against, being caught off-guard) and a scaling bonus to initiative, with a "You always win initiative" feature at level 20.

>Diviner's Fortune: Touch a creature, they gain a bonus to any die roll for the next round equal to half your wizard level. Can sue 3+Int times a day

Not too bad. Free bonus to rolls for a round. Good, but nothing gamebreaking.

>Scrying Adept: You always know when someone scrys you as if you had a permanent Detect Scrying effect. Also everyone is treated one step closer to you in familiarity when making saving throws vs your scrys, Very Familiar getting a -10 penalty.

You always know when your scried and, as per the Detect Scrying spell, you can make a check to know which way it's coming from.

None of this has any cost either, you just have it for existing.

Okay, technically the cost is that you can't take the far shittier abilities from other specialist schools, but that's not really a cost.

>>51974945
There's also spontaneous divination, which is awesome. I use it all the time. Except in certain situations...

>GM: As far as you know, the young psion is the only person who can sense the half-dragon you're looking for. The elven queen stands high and proud, as if daring you to try to talk her into letting the psion guide you...
>Me: I just hit level 8 spells last level. I could just cast Discern Location on the half-dragon instead of going to war against the elves. It apparently can't be blocked outside of Mind Blank or direct intervention by a god...
>GM: Yeah, and that god's called the GM.

>>51934504
>this is what people who haven't played D&D think
Wow

>>51934108
And today we saw the birth of a new meme.

>>51934504
This is no way a representative scenario about 5E so you're full of it lol

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>>51955358

>>51933956
>1d8+5 at 20th level
Worst Barbarian in the world. Try power attacking with your fucking greataxe and getting some synergies to let you full attack more. And that's before the fact that it's far, far easier to boost weapon as opposed to spell damage with items (And that 20d6 for "some fire" is the hard cap for most pre-epic spells. Regular level 3 "Can piss these all day" fireballs cap at 10d6).

Wizard using Delayed Blast Fireball, level 20
>Damage is 20d6 (Average: 70)
>There is a save for half, though most foes won't have a great chance at making it since most saves scale slower than DCs
>Fire damage is probably the most common damage resistance/immunity in existence. The wizard can fix that with a clever use of feats and/or items.
>This is area of effect. Feats/items mean friendly fire is a thing of the past by 20, so this is only an upside

Barbarian
>Let's say he wields a Greatsword because he's not a fucking sheep. That's 2d6 base damage
>+10 stat mod in mainstat is pretty attainable by level 20. Level 20 is stupid like that. 2d6+10
>Barbarian could miss (unlikely, AC like saves scales worse than attack bonus), but could also crit (10% before feats/enchantments)
>Get a fucking baller weapon. You are level goddamn 20 we're basically assuming santa has brought both the barb and the wizard exactly what they want. +5 Keen and four elemental enchants. Current Damage 2d6 + 4d6 various elements + 15, 20% Crit
>Take some goddamned feats. Improved Critical and Power Attack. You should be able to power attack for 10 on most foes though you might have to make due with 5 for particularly hard-to-hit targets and could go full 20 for a target dummy that just exists to soak damage
>Attack for 6d6+35. Crit 30% of all attack rolls for 8d6+70

Of course, since any Wizard, Cleric or Druid can do far, FAR more off the hook things than fireball (And Cleric or Druid do them while being front-liners), your point stands. But your barbarian is terrible.

>>51980823
>Attack for 6d6+35. Crit 30% of all attack rolls for 8d6+70
Oh, and that's on PA 10. 20 PA with a two-hander (the "target dummy" scenario) is 6d6+55/8d6+110

>>51941649
>The barbarian has to expend a rage which can last an entire fight, recharge on a short rest,

Does rage recharge scale into short rests?

I remember being kinda upset that druids recharge wildshape on short rest, but barbairans need a long rest for rage.

>>51946421
All this text. Still sounds really easy for the grappler to do in 5e.

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>>51933956
Why is this a problem?

Why should a man with a sharp stick be as powerful as the guy who controls arcane/divine/infernal forces?

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>>51981662

>>51981662
1. Because they are presented as equally powerful options.
2. Because not all settings have casters controlling reality at a whim. The fact that it has become the default assumption for magic across all systems personally disgusts me.
3. Because it's fantasy and crazy shit should be allowed to happen for everyone.
4. Because everyone at the table is there to have a good time, and Jim shouldn't be left out of the fun just because he chose the wrong thing.
5. Because having a class and level system where characters of the same level aren't of a roughly equal power level is pointless arbitrary garbage.

>>51981767
>1. Because they are presented as equally powerful options.
Are they? Where does it say that all classes are eqally powerful?

>2. Because not all settings have casters controlling reality at a whim. The fact that it has become the default assumption for magic across all systems personally disgusts me.
Okay but we're talking about your standard run of the mill D&D here.

>3. Because it's fantasy and crazy shit should be allowed to happen for everyone.
No. Fighters can't shoot fireballs from their dicks just because it's a fantasy setting. There are still rules.

>4. Because everyone at the table is there to have a good time, and Jim shouldn't be left out of the fun just because he chose the wrong thing.
If "power" is what Jim is looking for at the table then RPGs probably aren't for him. Either that or he can just roll a caster.

>5. Because having a class and level system where characters of the same level aren't of a roughly equal power level is pointless arbitrary garbage.
Wrong. It just helps measure their power relative to other characters of the same class. That's why classes used to gain experience and level up at different rates.

>>51933956
Folks, it is just NOT RIGHT that in THIS day and AGE, ONE pa-cent of the CLASSES, have access to NINEty FIVE, pa-cent, of the spells.

>>51981855
Out of all the wrong in your post, your refutation of point 3 is what pisses me off the most. I really couldn't care less about D&Disms and whatever, but this really got me.
>There are still rules.
NO
THERE
FUCKING
AREN'T

Well, yeah, sure there are still the rules of whatever system you're using and blah blah blah. But as far as fantasy goes, there is absolutely nothing dictating what it should or should not be. Constraining yourself to some made up arbitrary rules of what "real" fantasy is just kills your creativity. The only thing worse that you could do is cling to "realism."

Why can't the dude who swings a sword be as good, if not better than, the guy who uses magic. It happens regularly, both in ancient mythology and in literature. There's no reason for it, and it's a stupid descision made by an idiotic designer with a hardon for wizards.

Let your fighters do cool shit. It won't break your game, it won't be too "anime" (whatever the fuck that even means), and everyone online will think you're a big dick cool guy for doing it.

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>>51982010
Sorry but that's just not going to happen.

Your fighter can TRY to shoot fireballs out of his dick. He can try to wrestle a dragon or lift up a mountain.

But no matter what you roll, the result will be the same.

There ARE rules. This isn't freeform roleplaying.

>>51982072
What's stopping you from changing the rules to let fighters do those kinds of things?

>>51982093
Nothing but once you do that you're no longer playing a fighter in D&D.

You're playing Dragonball Z or Marvel superheroes.

>>51982131
No you're not. You're still playing D&D. Besides, aren't the two things you listed generally perceived as good, quality entertainment?

>>51982166
Fighters in D&D or fantasy in general don't bench press mountains.

Nothing wrong with DBZ or Marvel but I don't expect that kind of shit when I'm playing a game based on Tolkienesque fantasy.

>>51982201
Tolkienesque fantasy doesn't have much extreme magic either, Gandalf was a fucking Angel/Demigod and even he wasn't tossing around spells like a DnD wizard.

>>51982245
He could still shoot lightning bolts and kill balrogs.

I don't think Aragorn or Legolas could 1v1 a balrog.

Wizards in D&D have always been able to do crazy shit. That's what's so awesome about them.

If you want to play a muscle man that can lift moutnains then maybe try a superhero RPG. Might be more to your liking.

>>51982201
>Fighters in D&D or fantasy in general don't bench press mountains.
I'll brush past your circular logic there and just point out that yes, yes they do. I don't have the screencap on me, but it's a list of fictional warriors who do absolutely crazy shit with their natural god-given gifts. Diverting rivers with their mighty thews, swimming across entire oceans while wrestling sea monsters, and hitting mountains so hard that they split them in two.
>game based on Tolkienesque fantasy.
D&D was never that. It's a weird amalgamation of pulp swords and sorcery stories, Jack Vance novels, and old sci-fi, among other sources. Yes, it does draw influence from Tolkien, but only because he defined a fucking genre and his stories have influenced countless writers throughout the generations. D&D is not Tolkienesque fantasy by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, if anything, casters are already riding the DBZ line. Because they can literally fly around shooting energy blasts from their hands while shouting funny words and doing hand gestures. Don't kid yourself, you are NOT worried about that sort of stuff in your game, because chances are that it's already fucking in there.

>>51981577
Not too difficult no. But remember, that's 3 checks to do something simple as "I grab the guy" with even a single one failing means you don't.

>>51982310
He is literally a fucking demigod.

DnD wizards are mortals.

>>51982357
You're confusing mythology with contemporary fantasy literature. There's a massive distinction there.

>D&D was never that. It's a weird amalgamation of pulp swords and sorcery stories, Jack Vance novels, and old sci-fi, among other sources. Yes, it does draw influence from Tolkien, but only because he defined a fucking genre and his stories have influenced countless writers throughout the generations. D&D is not Tolkienesque fantasy by any stretch of the imagination.

And in none of the source material for D&D were warriors demigods who can split mountains in twain by farting.

>
Also, if anything, casters are already riding the DBZ line. Because they can literally fly around shooting energy blasts from their hands while shouting funny words and doing hand gestures. Don't kid yourself, you are NOT worried about that sort of stuff in your game, because chances are that it's already fucking in there.

That's what wizards DO. They're magical and they fly around and shoot fireballs.

There are tradeoffs. Wizards are frail and weak in hand to hand combat. They have low HP. They're glass cannons.

What you're suggesting is that fighters be hard as nails AND hit as hard as casters. What the fuck dude? Just roll a demigod while you're at it.

>>51982310
>le Mutants & Masterminds is best D&D edition!

I hate the meme but goddamnit it's true.

>>51982408
>And in none of the source material for D&D were warriors demigods who can split mountains in twain by farting.
And in none of the source material were wizards nigh omnipotent, able to warp reality at a whim and solve all problems with a flick of the wrist.
>That's what wizards DO.
No my friend, no it is not what they do. In most literature that sort of thing is actually very rare. Rarer still in the source material for D&D.
>They're glass cannons.
In theory, yes, that's what they're supposed to be. But in practice they're not. They have multiple ways to make up for those weaknesses. But that's arguing mechanics. I'm arguing the flawed reasoning and justification for the fighter/wizard divide.
>Just roll a demigod while you're at it.
Why not? It's what the casters are doing. Would you let my character be a combat deity?

>>51982532
>And in none of the source material were wizards nigh omnipotent, able to warp reality at a whim and solve all problems with a flick of the wrist.
They can't do any of that shit in practice either unless we're talking about extremely high level wizards. If a character is that powerful then it's probably time to retire him and start a new campaign.

>No my friend, no it is not what they do. In most literature that sort of thing is actually very rare. Rarer still in the source material for D&D.
That's what wizards do in D&D. What do you expect wizards to do? Read runes? Tell people's fortunes?

>In theory, yes, that's what they're supposed to be. But in practice they're not. They have multiple ways to make up for those weaknesses. But that's arguing mechanics. I'm arguing the flawed reasoning and justification for the fighter/wizard divide.
Give me a concrete example of this divide using mechanics. As I said, there are drawbacks to rolling a caster.

>Why not? It's what the casters are doing. Would you let my character be a combat deity?
You can roll a cleric of Tempus I guess.

But if you really think that casters are demigods why not just roll a caster? What's stopping you?

>>51982532
>Rarer still in the source material for D&D.
This has become painfully, painfully moot.

The major inspirations for "Wizards" In D&D are Jack Vance's "The Dying Earth" (Where sufficiently advanced wizards can make whole pocket dimensions and true life and less fancy ones shoot laser beams from their fingers) and to a lesser extent Earthsea or the pulp authors of the early 20th century like Robert E. Howard.

Except now "Influence" on D&D has become incestuous. If you are under 40, D&D is older than you. If you're under 25, D&D is probably older than most of your nostalgic fantasy outings. Due to having a massive amount of popularity, D&D became an inspirational source for countless other fantasy tales, some of which themselves have become sources for D&D's later incarnations. So while if you look before the earliest D&D you have to cherry pick to find examples of the D&Desque wizard, by the time you get to what's influencing the new players and fantasy readers of today, it's no longer true.

The designers of later editions knew that. If they looked to what was popular for some inspiration when they were working, they likely looked at a lot of things that owe a debt, perhaps through several degrees of separation, to older D&D.

For that matter, Wizards that AREN'T magical-combat-ready spellslingers are getting rarer and rarer. Heck, the likes of Elminster, with their books and careful arcane art that took ages to learn are starting to look kind of out of place in a world where Jaina Proudmoore has been a thing for 15 years.

Magic in media is cleaner, prettier, and more reliable than ever. Argue all you want that it's broken, good. Try to fix it if you can. But the minute you talk about "Source Material" for D&D newer than the fucking red box, you're wrong because by 2017 D&D's biggest source is itself.