Is the Wall of the Faithless really such a big deal? If you're

>>51905146

It means that the gods have no answer to atheism, besides making them die in a wall.

>>51905146
There are no atheists in this universe.
Despite its name, the wall has nothing to do with faith, it has to do with worship.

>>51905146
Reminder that gods of justice, mercy and goodness are all totally a-okay with blackmailing people into worshipping them, because otherwise they would lose their precious power.
Reminder that Kelemvor tore down that wall once, and other gods, including good ones, threw a shitfit and made him restore it.
Reminder that newest FR material tries to not bring up the Wall at all, because WoTC knows it's retarded, but doesn't want to retcon it.

>>51905146
>Be a good person
>Live in a remote tribe where organized religion does not exist
>Live entirely life without ever learning of the existence of gods
>Die
>LOL WALL FOR YOU

>>51906427
Not knowing about the gods is pretty unlikely in FR. However, it gets worse.
> Be a newborn in Shou Lung
> Be a girl
> ohshit.jpg
> Get killed two hours in.
> LOL WALL FOR YOU

>>51906324

The 5e Swordcoast guide mentions the walls.

>>51905146
But therein lies the question - is it fair to have a wall of punishment, when the only people who will get stuck in the wall are probably the unfortunate? Even evil people will probably end up worshiping some deity.

It's just an ugly bit of theology, in the end. Like 'how many people couldn't have even possibly survived to hear Jesus' message,' or 'if bad things only happen to sinners, then why do bad things happen to someone who has done no wrong?'

>>51906532

The wall also eats the "False", who are insincere or half-hearted in their worship

>>51905146
Yes its a big deal.
It is the remnant of an evil god and still upheld by a supposedly neutral god.

Kelemvor claims to be lawful neutral but is clearly acting out of his alignment and should be docked XP appropriately.

>>51906470
> Souls that are unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust. The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself.
At least 5e makes things *slightly* more fair.

>>51905146
There is a race of super beings in the universe. They all have great power, and can influence life in a myriad of ways, some for the better or worse. All you truly mean to these beings is to act a personal battery pack for one of them.

You must pick one you like, and devote your entire lifetime to worshiping this divine asshole, so that said asshole will be slightly better at his dick measuring competitions with other divine assholes.

If you choose not to enslave yourself in service to said divine asshole, whom won't even know you exist unless you are one of his powerful clergy, then they all agree to send you to a terrible fate where you are turned into a brick and must stay there, alert and aware, but unable to act, for all eternity. Even the Gods of justice and righteousness are okay with this.

Gods are a fucking protection racket.

>>51906324
>or otherwise they would lose their precious power
And therefore would be unable to dispense and protect justice, mercy and goodness
>and other gods, including good ones, threw a shitfit and made him restore it
He hadn't been a god for long when that came up. With the memory of the time of troubles so fresh, it would be foolish to blame them for not wanting him to do what was considered his job. As of 5e, you only end up in the wall if you are "truly false and faithless", which is a statement that is pretty open to interpretation, it could just be where all would be committers of deicide end up.

>>51906758
>And therefore would be unable to dispense and protect justice, mercy and goodness
If they truly were avatars of justice, mercy and goodness, they wouldn't lose any worshippers should the wall fall. Some good god you are, if you NEED to blackmail people into worshipping you.

>>51905146
>Wall of the Faithless
I hate it just cause MotB set up like the last third of it being about if you should or should not destroy it, and then at the very end it was like "lol j/k, you can't do that."

Guys. What if there is no Wall at all? What if it's a (((god))) trick to worship and serve them? It's not like they can't spread lies, manipulate people and mess with memories.

To be fair, atheism where gods exist and are active isn't the denial of their existence, it's the claim that mortals don't need them at all. Of course those divine fucks would be pissed at this. Especially the gods of good that actually do give a shit about mortals.

>>51905146
>Is the Wall of the Faithless really such a big deal?

After reading about The Wall of The Faithless:

If I was going to do something like this I'd turn it into more of a "man behind the curtain" kind of scenario where in the wall of the faithless taking of atheists is a lie perpetuated by all the gods partially out of convenience as this anon stated: >>51906628 But for another, more heinous, and personally terrifying reason.

When in actuality The Wall of The Faithless wasn't made or crafted by the gods themselves, can't even be destroyed by the gods themselves, and is in fact the gestating body of some massive, primordial, ancient being whom originally conceived all life and is simply taking back the souls it originally split from it's own flesh during the big bang.

Then you basically just have all these Gods who're making up shit saying if you don't believe in x, y, and z you'll end up in the "Wall of the Faithless", but really they're just trying to siphon as many souls as possible from this horrifying thing growing in their backyard before it wakes up and basically takes back everything it ever gave in comeuppance for everyone abusing their power and devolving into good and evil- unlike it's neutral vision of existence.

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>>51906467

It really should be renamed the "wall of babies".

Though it would explain why paladins Fall when they inadvertantly kill a baby in weird Fall Traps.

"YOU PUT ANOTHER BRICK IN THE WALL YOU FOOL!" *thunderclap* *powers diminish*

>>51906324
> Reminder that gods of justice, mercy and goodness

The god of mercy isn't okay with it, which is why Kaelyen is one of his clerics. He shares her opposition to the wall.

It's a retarded concept, it really forces you to question the description of any """good""" god.

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>>51907783
>Then you basically just have all these Gods who're making up shit saying if you don't believe in x, y, and z you'll end up in the "Wall of the Faithless", but really they're just trying to siphon as many souls as possible from this horrifying thing growing in their backyard before it wakes up and basically takes back everything it ever gave in comeuppance for everyone abusing their power and devolving into good and evil- unlike it's neutral vision of existence.

The flip side of it being a wall of babies or an eldritch soul eating monster is that you end up with a few core rules all religions would enforce:

Child murder is always wrong.
Not doing whatever is neccesary to keep children alive is wrong
Not doing whatever is neccesary to indoctrinate children as soon as possible and consign their souls to the Gods and not The Wall is wrong.
Excommunication is a mortal sin, for both excommunicator and excommunicatee.
It is less sinful to kill a believer than a non-believer.
It is less sinful to kill a believer than excommunicate one.
If a person believes in *A* faith, trying to convert them and risking accidentally placing them outside either religion is wrong.

You'd also likely see that last one tested a few times, specifically if there's a few religions that are a bit crap at retaining or evangelising - the other gods and their religions would likely ally together to wipe out all those worshippers of inefficiently evangelical religions - leading to a global pantheon made up of the most evangelical religions and gods who are all in an uneasy alliance against The Wall.

>>51908168

With that said I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few people here and there or otherwise cults sprouting up that believed the wall of flesh and the baby eating fate to be what is "naturally supposed to happen" and then just go from there:

-Some people buy into the whole, "we're being saved from the cruel reality of oblivion by the grace of every and any deity who will take us in."

-Some people though -especially given that fantasy settings are terrible at keeping secrets- might actually WANT to willingly become a part of the wall of flesh/athiests so as to make it more powerful so it can consume the gods, the universe, everything in retribution for fucking everything up.

I dunno.
It's a neat idea anyway.

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>>51905146
Kill all gods. Every last one.

>>51905146
So if someone from Forgotten Realms used magic to travel to Sigil would they be safe from the Wall? It clearly doesn't affect people from there seeing how casually anti-theistic a lot of them are.

>>51906982
That was hugely disappointing. I was looking forward to tearing it down - i think the qt aasimar party member was particularly enthusiastic about it?

>>51907448
This anon gets it. Mortals don't need the gods at all. The gods need the mortals for energy (through prayer).

However, there is a way to avoid the Wall. Don't die ;).

>>51905146

Yes, basically this.

It's like if someone tells you "Dude, stop smoking or YOU'LL GET CANCER". Then you keep smoking, and you get cancer.

>>51906427

Actually, as a tribal dude, wouldn't you have your own afterlife? Like, you'd meet with your ancestor-spirits or something. Gan was a Spirit Shaman, and he clearly wasn't worried about what would happen after he died.

>>51908453
It's more like a rapist telling you to suck his cock or he'll cut your throat.

>>51908485
We need a subclass archetype that tries to escape from the gods influence!

>>51908370

No-one EVER intended to tear it down. Even Akachi didn't give a fuck, he just wanted his woman back. The Crusade was basically a sham.

Oh, the poor saps he gathered believed HIM, but Akachi was lying. He knew more than anyone that it couldn't be torn down.

This, then, must be the answer of the mortal races to their slavers: death. Death by fire, death by sword, death by spell. Torture for a million million years on each one cowardly enough to try parlay or surrender. Tear them down, pave them over, butcher their quisling faithful and their supernatural secret police alike.

The world belongs to the mortals. The gods are parasites.

>>51905146
Not being aware of Gods doesn't put you beyond their influence. You don't always get your preferred after life, some souls are in demand by multiple gods, some of which the party in question may not even have known or cared about.

Reminder that Lolth want's Drizzt's soul just as much as Mielikki

>>51908575
So, how can a mortal escape the influence of the gods?

>>51908610
>Kratos.jpg
KILL
THEM
ALL

>>51908610

Sell your soul to a demon, of course.

>>51908631
What a practical suggestion. They aren't only all powerful but there are hundreds of them too.

>fuckme.jpg

>>51908645
Let's not replace one pimp with another, ok?

>>51908610
Both Demons and Devils are able to mess with souls, and you can climb the ranks of either with ambition, effort, and time, although being powerful before death is definitely a boon.

I would imagine Celestials, perhaps high level Elementals and other high-level planar entities could, but the ones that care are typically called Gods anyway, even if they go unworshipped on the Material plane, like Primus or the Slaad gods.

>>51908661
Kratos gets by on hate, you can too.

>>51908661
>They aren't only all powerful but there are hundreds of them too.
They AREN'T all powerful, Lolth gets her ass handed to her by Demogorgon who doesn't bother with the whole worship thing. He's just a pimp ass demon.

I would prefer to see the mortals be free from their own actions rather than "be important enough" to be noticed by a "higher power". The latter is religion repackaged.

>>51906427
>>51905146
>>51906324
No, it's not a big deal.

Getting stuck in the Wall is not something that happens to just anybody:

>Almost all beings in Faerun worship many gods; as a rule, only zealots and clergy venerate just one deity.
>The average Faerunian lives long enough to worship (or serve through one's actions) one deity above all others - though in many acses, which deity a given person has served most might not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone else. If a mortal dies before finishing a mission or a task for a particular deity and it's a matter he felt strongly about in life, he could be sent back by that deity, reborn as another mortal, to try to complete that tasks. Otherwise, he ends up in the afterlife serving the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook.
>Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result of their actions are renounced by the gods), despoil altars and frustrate the clerical aims of any deity, or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify as either Faithless or False.

We aren't talking about not really knowing about gods because you live in a remote tribe. You can go through life without ever sending a single offering, penny, or word their way, and if you still act noble and good and righteous and fight against evil, Torm or Tyr or Ilmater will TAKE YOU ANYWAY, because you're serving through action even if you don't realise it.

If you're in the Wall, congratulations, you've tipped your fedora harder than anybody in the history of tipping fedoras has ever tipped a fedora. You're running around blowing up altars and smashing their altars and temples entirely out of spite, for no other reason. Or you're claiming that you worship Kelemvor (who hates undead), while on the side raising an undead army to conquer the world. And what's funny about that is that a crazy person blowing up altars might get taken by Cyric anyway.

Getting stuck in the Wall is goddamn hard.

>>51906812
>Some good god you are, if you NEED to blackmail people into worshipping you.

People are useless shitters, anon. If everyone stopped being a tool and didn't worship Big Evil, then there'd be no fucking crime. We didn't invent locks because of all of the people out there who respect private property.

It's not Tyr's fault you use free will to rape babies.

>>51908168
Dead children are protected by the patron deity of their parents.

>>51908343

The people in Sigil are already dead, they're petitioners, or outsiders that were never alive in the first place.

>>51908745
Literally no god can make rightful claim of you if you go to the wall, which is nearly impossible because the gods cover literally everything. The only method is like anon said, you have to intentionally fuck up HARD, and piss of literal gods, and the right ones at that.

Vecna became a god, and so did many others. A god isn't something to be worshipped, it's just a CEO position - you suck up to them when you're on the lower rungs, and you stab them in the back once you are strong enough.

>>51908663
>>51908645
>>51908610
Devils roam the Fugue Plain, and by contract with Kelemvor are permitted to offer souls deals to escape potential judgement by going to Baator and becoming Blood War fodder.

Demons just raid the shit out of Kelemvor's city to steal souls from the line of waiting souls, and his deceased followers/outsider servants and so on fight them off.

>>51908767
>>51908745
A good example of what you'd need to get Faithless or False is The Nameless One in PST. TNO can't be a cleric because literally no god wants to take him.

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It's pretty bad, yeah.

I like the concept. It IS unfair.

It would be great to have a concept where a bunch of high level mortals tear the system down, and fuck divinity, let mortals rule their world.

>>51908745
>never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify as either Faithless
>because you're serving through action even if you don't realise it.

Deliberate worship, Anon. Furthering the goals of a god without realising it isn't deliberate worship of that god.

>>51908343
Outside of Toril's immediate solar system you should be fine. Though Toril has Planar realms associated with it where that wouldn't apply.

Basically so long as Ao has no influence there you'll be good.

>>51908766
Petitioners don't really go to Sigil. They're bound to a Plane or Divine Realm and Sigil is neither of those.

>>51910025
Except it also points out that somebody might not even realise that you're worshipping them until literally they are already dead and the god is coming to claim them (if they want to go with them). If you stand for truth, justice, righteousness, the law, and all the things Tyr stands for, just because you don't call it Tyr, you're still serving.

Drizzt actually would fit this pretty well. He technically counts as worshipping Mielikki because she is the goddess whose ideals he feels most closely match his own. He doesn't pray to her, actively worship her, or get spells from her (even though as a ranger he could). He simply has a set of ideals and beliefs that match what he thinks of as Mielikki, and follows them. He followed them long before he ever had a name to call it (when Montolio first started teaching him about non-Lolth gods).

And she loves him for it.

So that does bring up a concept, if you could travel to the dnd mutliverse, would you all avoid FR and go somewhere like greyhawk instead just so you dont get WALLED?

>>51910080
I don't think it does point that out.

>though in many acses, which deity a given person has served most might not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone else.

That's talking about what happens when mortals are worshipping multiple gods, rather than not deliberately worshipping any.

>>51910098
No, but I'd avoid Toril for other reasons.

>>51910113
like? larloch maybe?

>>51905146
>>51906324
>>51906427
>>51906467
>>51906532
>>51906542
>>51906543
>>51906628
>>51906812
>>51906982
>>51907448
>>51907783
>>51908168
>>51908319
>>51908436
>>51908453
>>51908505
>>51908540
>>51908548
>>51908575
>>51908745
>>51908825
Not to be that one fucking asshole dangus who fucking quotes everyone, but there is a HUGE part of this that literally everyone in this conversation is forgetting.

THE WALL is an element of the Blood War. It punishes the souls of the dead yes, but it also keeps devils and demons out of the grey city. It also acts as a soft controller for the Blood War, because Devils are allowed to make deals with souls bound to the wall to free them, and Demons just fucking attack the wall and steal souls from it.

All of FR actually revolves around the blood war, this huge cluster fuck of a conflict that could rage out of control and end existence, but quixotically would also end existence if it stopped because it would mean the Lower Planes would stop fighting each other and turn their attentions elsewhere. The entire divine mechanism is set up to control the lower planes and prevent them from getting strong enough to break the deadlock.

>>51910098
I would just worship a god

>>51910080
Drizzt explicitly worships Mielikki and carries her holy symbol, it's mentioned in his very first novel, The Crystal Shard. Errtu figures out Drizzt's con of attempting to appear to be a Drow spy because he's wearing a Mielikki symbol, and Drizzt refuses to lie about his goddess, so they fight and he beats Errtu with his snowflake (literally) scimitar he stole from the White Dragon's hoard.

>take 1 level of cleric.
>Worship the concept of anything.
>What wall?

>>51910122
No, I just don't want to be on the same planet as Elminster. I'd just go take a vacation in Bytopia instead.

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>>51910124
He worships her in the first novel yeah, but he didn't realise he was worshiping her in the prequel series, which came out later, until he started being taught by Montolio.

>>51910098
I'd worship a deity, I don't have any issue with it really. Probably Mystra. Pic related, dat priestess. Also because I get to the D&D multiverse, you bet your ass I'm going to learn as much as magic as I can from day one.

Shit, if I ever felt like coming home I could just go say hi to Elminster, he used to raid Greenwood's fridge for beer in-canon all the time.

>>51910142
I don't think Clerics are allowed to worship concepts in FR.

>>51910155
>Mystra
>not Lathander
Do you even Praise the Sun, heretic?

>>51910155
But could one get elminster to teach one magic? Can't you get his attention by saying his name a certain amount of times due to being a chosen

>>51910182
By the rules yes, a Chosen of Mystra can hear their name spoken as well as the next nine words following it.

By the novels, it doesn't work quite like that. They control the radius of how far they can hear, because if they tried listening to the entire planet all at once, can you imagine just how many instances of their name would show up? Since it also picks up aliases, nicknames, and similar, it'd be immensely annoying if somebody just started saying "Elminster hi" fifty times in a row.

>>51908661
Even Ao is not all powerful. Lady of Pain is probably the closest to all powerful being but only within her domain.

Even the four powers - Law, Chaos, Good and Evil - are not all powerful and are opposed by their counterparts.

>>51910230
isnt there a almighty being that is briefly mentioned in one of the FR books? like the boss of Ao?

>>51910159
Planar travelling concept clerics. On a holy crusade to eradicate all gods.

>>51910230
It's said in I think Die Vecna Die that Ao, the Lady of Pain, the Serpent, and Asmodeus are all part of a group of immeasurably ancient entities.

>>51910246
Ao goes all the way to the edge of "everything" to meet with his boss in one book, and refers to countless assignments "like his" that were born lived and died from there, and Ao's current project is Realmspace. He definitely has a superior, but within his crystal sphere he's for all intents and purposes omnipotent and omniscient (and omnipresent).

Krynn does as well, though he's only mentioned in a single phrase sworn by Takhisis as an oath, where she swears upon the High God (signifying that she cannot disobey, lest she invoke his wrath).

Not all crystal spheres seem to have overgods, although they might just be less VISIBLE overgods than other spheres. Ao is pretty visible, all things considered. The High God is almost invisible. If Athas has an overgod, they aren't visible at all. Pity the Athas overgod, imagine how they feel looking at what their creation has turned into.

>>51910246
That's just his boss. He may think he is all powerful but it is not the case since both Abyss and Baator still exist.

To support a claim of being all powerful you'll need to go to war against Abyss and win. I don't see gods lining up for this task.

>>51910163
>Lathander
>Not a tyrant just biding his time until he gets to try and take over the Pantheon again

>>51910268
who is the serpaent in this context?

>>51910268
>Pity the Athas overgod, imagine how they feel looking at what their creation has turned into.

That depends on his character. Maybe he is just a dick.

>>51910268
>be Athas overgod
>make lush world, full of magic and wonder
>cock of the walk, all the other overgods look at me and thumbsup, everybody wants to be my friend
>hmm, something's up here, water drying up?
>well, it's still beautiful, we're still good, magic still going on
>suddenly the sun goes red
>waitwhat
>those cute little halflings I made turn cannibal
>magic dying, destroying the world
>desolate lands
>everything going to shit
>the fuck is this Grey crap blocking me from the rest of the multiverse
>ohshit
>ohshitohshitohshitohshit
>...
>everybody points and laughs
>Ao suggesting I maybe call this one a day, start over
>even the fucking Krynn dick is laughing at me, how many fucking times has his world had to have its ass saved and cataclysms dropped on it?
>FML

>>51910275
The Overgod of Magic, who whispers its secrets to Vecna.

Allegedly.

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>>51906982
>>51908370
>>51908540
>No-one EVER intended to tear it down.
Kaelyn did.

I never understood the dismay at her good ending.
She keeps up the fight.
Hers is an impossible mission and still she fights on.
She is the Batman of the afterlife.
There are worse things.

I interpreted it as her repeatedly freeing individual souls from the wall in little victories.
In my head, she and the protagonist go on fighting on the planes forever, or until the wall falls.

>>51910312
>knew no faith in life
>suddenly start finding faith when they get the wall and consequences for their actions

This seems ironic.

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>>51910312
An another thing, I understand that a lot of people were disappointed by the fact that you couldn't destroy the Wall of the Faithless, but they explained it very well.
Once it was clear that the god in charge could whisk you away with a thought, the enterprise was basically forfeit.
At that point.

Whereas everyone else seemed to respond angrily to being told they couldn't do the impossible, I had this response:

>Apparently, it's impossible to destroy the Wall of the Faithless without displacing the God of Death, being powerful enough to resist the combined might of nearly all the gods, and implementing another solution to the Wall's place in the Blood War.
pic fucking related

After all, I had already eaten at least one deity at that point, depending on the run through.

>>51910312
She definitely needs to find Struggle and listen to him.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?456529-quot-Fall-down-seven-times-Stand-up-eight-quot-Mythos

The Wall of the Faithless is good because the gods say so.

If mortals must listen to gods, and gods must listen to overgods, who do overgods must listen to?

>>51907448
The gods of good who actually give a shit about mortals should be figuring out a way to get rid of the Wall and free everyone trapped in it.

>>51908485
Getting your throat cut means you'll be dead relatively soon. It's more like a rapist telling you to suck his cock or he'll lock you in his basement and torture you for the rest of your life. Oh, and not only do you have to suck his cock, you have to actually *like* doing it and keep telling him how great his dick is and how you're thankful he gave you a chance to suck it. If he thinks you're lying, he'll torture you for that, just as he would if you'd outright refused to suck his cock.

I remember a candlekeep poster telling me that Kelemvor decides how good your godless afterlife will be. I'm pretty sure that there are no atheists in the realms, given how ingrained gods are when they actually exist, and there are gods who'll take people even if they did not worship, so even if you did not visit the temple some sort of nature god may accept you if you were like a ranger or hunter or something, and babies and children get accepted pretty quickly. Unless you're completely evil, some god will probably accept you even if you did not actively worship.

>>51908745
>You can go through life without ever sending a single offering, penny, or word their way, and if you still act noble and good and righteous and fight against evil, Torm or Tyr or Ilmater will TAKE YOU ANYWAY, because you're serving through action even if you don't realise it.


>>51910080
>If you stand for truth, justice, righteousness, the law, and all the things Tyr stands for, just because you don't call it Tyr, you're still serving.

These are all well and good for player characters, but what about regular people who are decent enough or at least not actively malicious, but who also aren't heroic champions who go on grand quests for the cause of good?

>>51910272
Ao is true neutral, as is his superior. He won't favour a side like that. It's implied that he is Overgod of only Toril, and his boss is a sort of overserr of overgods.

>>51910623

Then Lythander or Ilmater will likely be into you as the two gods of 'Just be a decent person

>>51910334
The difference is that their new faith is directed toward someone who's actually worthy of it.

>>51910635
Considering that demons don't give a shit about you favouring any sides that a really big flaw in his judgement.

>>51910539
the DM

>>51910623
What, like your average farmer who tends his crops, hopes for a good harvest, stuff like that? Chauntea would like a word.

Or a minor spice merchant who never thinks of the gods, just of his purse, some good trading, fine silks and other trinkets for his house, and making a profit? Waukeen is right there.

FR has gods for practically everything.

>>51910650
You have also Chauntea or Lliira.

>>51905146

Shouldn't she become a demigoddess or even a goddess in time?

>>51910797
>What, like your average farmer who tends his crops, hopes for a good harvest, stuff like that? Chauntea would like a word.
Just because someone spent their life as a farmer doesn't mean they want to pledge themselves to the goddess of farming and go to an afterlife dedicated to astral agriculture. In all likelihood, they only farmed because they had to in order to survive. So do they get sent to the Wall for being False because their heart wasn't in it?

>>51910928
You spent your entire 40 or so years of life digging dirt and starving whenever your harvest didn't pan out? Oh boy I can't wait to tell you about your afterlife!

>>51910928
Most farmers might not. They might just toss a prayer her way when hoping for a good harvest, maybe even just a casual "hopefully Chauntea gives us a good harvest this year" thing. As long as it's done in good faith and hope, why wouldn't she be willing to take somebody? She's not an evil bitch after all.

>>51910345
>>Apparently, it's impossible to destroy the Wall of the Faithless without displacing the God of Death, being powerful enough to resist the combined might of nearly all the gods, and implementing another solution to the Wall's place in the Blood War.

Who gives a fuck about all that. My character just wants to avoid the Wall and be free from the influence of the gods.

I believe that anon here said it well >>51908775.

>>51910956
It's not just about her saving someone from the Wall. Being taken by a god means your afterlife is modeled after that god's domain and you'll be expected to dedicate yourself to it. That's not exactly a positive thing for someone who only farmed because they had to.

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> And standing there, facing the pure
> horrifying precision, I came to realize the
> obviousness of the truth. What is the
> Wall? Control. The Wall is a magicaly
> generated prison world, built to keep us
> under control in order to change a
> creature into this.

>>51911011
They only farmed because they had to? They dreamed of a life of adventuring, of exploration, of seeking out new things, of seeing great wonders of the world as they travel?

Shaundakul.

Or whatever god or goddess handles dreams and dreamers, I'm sure there's at least one.

>>51911151
>Shaundakul.
>Or whatever god or goddess handles dreams and dreamers, I'm sure there's at least one.

I'm pretty sure only the lowest of the low among fiends would take these terrible human beings.

These PEASANTS dared to look up from their god blessed existence! Such sickness of morals shall not be condoned. What's next, a peasant wishing to be a king? Know your place, commoner. You're where you are because the gods put you there.

>>51905146
Basically it means all gods are defacto horrible people ruling by threat of eternal tortue, and deserve to be smitten in the name of good.

>>51906547
>truly false and faithless
This fixes it completely. Only one with the opportunity to become faithful can be truly faithless. There shouldn't have been a thread after this post.

Once again Best Edition protects us from Evil.

>>51906265
>My soul is unclaimed by a god because I actively refuse to worship them when they have literally walked the earth.
>Gods are assholes for not wanting to save me from my own choices, when they have many other duties to fulfill.

>>51911365
>instead of letting them die and do whatever naturally happens, we're going to go out of our way to fuck them because gotta get building material somewhere, right?
I mean, with such a system in place, people actively opposing those gods are totally in the right.

>>51911373
When the Wall was gone in 4E, what "naturally happened" was dwindling into nonexistence and feeling every moment of it over an agonisingly slow period when no gods claimed them.

>>51911383
Then let that happen.
It's not "facing the consequences of your actions" if some asshole picks you up and makes you into a wall.
Fuck, let those buddhists stop existing already, christ, what kind of assholes are you?

>>51911393
>don't let this painful slide into nonexistence happen as you're mortared into a wall to guard the City of the Dead
>let instead this painful slide into nonexistence happen

>>51906427
How is this any different than Christianity, Islam, or jewishness? I bet most of you guys are Xitan and okay with it.

>>51911403
But anon, pain is existence. Only through non-existence you can exit the cycle of reincarnation.

>>51911422
Fuck that nihilistic crapshoot.

>>51910956
That does not sound like sincere devotion. To avoid being judged False you have to believe with every inch of your being, like Abraham willing to sacrifice his only son just because God asked him to do so.

>>51911403
Just because someone is dying of thirst doesn't mean they would appreciate you abducting them and making them die of exposure.

You gotta ask first, man. If a god can't follow goddamn common courtesy, then fuck its wall. And if it forces it, then, well, that god is a huge dick.

>>51910098
Eberron my negroid

>>51911426
man, buddhists are some of the most chill people there are today.

>>51911428
>you have to believe with every inch of your being
>citation required

>>51910155
I want to fuck the Priest of Silvanus while the Priest of Mystra watches.
What's my alignment, who's my deity, and will I escape the Wall?

>>51911445
If gods took in just about anyone who matched even nominally their portfolio, who would bother to worship then? Faith works only if you're truly terrified of death.

>>51911437
Considering the ethnic cleansing we hear about by Buddhists on muslims somewhere in the east? No, they are as bad as the rest.

>>51911406
> How is this any different than Christianity, Islam, or jewishness?

It isn't. This whole thread is about the meaning of life. Are you expecting someone else to save/free/reward you even if you have never seen him/her/it? Or are you going to take your life in your hands and be responsible for your actions?

>>51911464
That's part of why Kelemvor exists, though, to judge those quesitonable or nominal cases. Gods don't mind.

>>51908453
Gann wasn't worried, but Gann was an idiot. You have lots of people, including a much older, more experienced spirit shaman, telling him he was bound for the wall when he died.

If mortals, sentient intelligent beings, have to worship gods in order to have any meaning in their lives, who do gods, also sentient intelligent beings, have to worship? They can clearly die.

>>51911489
Without heartfelt devotion over 99% of people would be nominal cases, and the setting wouldn't logically function. You need burning heart faith for a god to take you, which is why the system is so unfair.

>>51911521
Dungeon Masters

>>51911524
Shush! That sounds like cultist-intending-to-end-the-world talk to me. You're clearly an evil man.

>>51906628
So just like real life with nations in place of gods?

>>51911531
Dungeon masters don't exist within setting. This is blatant metagaming.

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>>51911531
Genius!

>>51911547
> So just like real life with nations in place of gods?

Real life is shitier. At least in FR gods exist.

>>51911524
>You need burning heart faith for a god to take you
Where is that said? You only need them to approve of your life and life choices.

Case in point, guy called Avner who appears in novels. He was a thief in the Moonshaes, and died a death worthy of Torm (righteous, fighting to defend others, that sort of thing). Kelemvor judged him, and decided that he died in service to Torm and seemingly had not offered particular devotion to any other god.

Torm was happy to take him when Kelemvor made his decision, willingly and eagerly, because Avner's sacrifice rang true to Torm. It didn't take much at all, merely dying in service to the ideals Torm stood for, and that was literally all it took.

Avner's case was admittedly called into question when Mask showed up and started claiming that Avner had continually offered to Mask in one of his aspects all his (early) life as a thief, so he had to be put under question, at which point Kelemvor temporarily made him into his servant to save him from Mask's scheming and give him another chance to return to Torm. I don't think this denies the main point though, that it does not take "burning heart faith" for a god to take you, just following that god's ideals even if you don't actively follow them by name.

>>51911599
>. I don't think this denies the main point though

If anything it does a good job of selling why you need Kelemvor rather than a mindless system. To take into account the specifics rather than just going 'X served Y for more time than any other god, go to Y'

>>51911599
>Where is that said? You only need them to approve of your life and life choices.

Gods are the team captain in your middle school amateur dodgeball! You wouldn't want to be picked last, would you, berk? Or not picked at all?

>>51911625
Well, that IS his job, in fairness. To judge the dead, and determine if they are Faithless or False. By definition, judging if they are one or the other also means determining if they are neither (and thus who they go to). And Kelemvor is a fair, impartial judge.

Excepting that early period, mind you, but teething issues.

>>51910345
They actually were planning on doing a "Destroy the Wall" ending, but then just scrapped it since they assumed that WotC would just outright forbid them from doing that.

>>51911578
>>51911574
>In his hour of greatest need, Helm beseeched Steve for aid, to smite his Abyssal foes and triumph

It works, bros. Just remember to answer the prayers of your godly followers.

>>51905146
I played a Cleric of Kelemvor, always had fun with this dilemma.

>>51911656
One of the ironic things about the Wall is that its existence is weird.

It's mentioned as something Myrkul did. Kelemvor at first removed it when he came to power. He never put it back. Then in 3E, it was suddenly back (even though he'd decided that souls would simply exist in the same grey nothingness, with those of similar moral outlook). No other setting book acknowledged it, no novel acknowledged it, no comic talked about it, they all acted as if it still didn't exist and was gone with Myrkul. It vanished again in 4E, again without anybody talking about it and no book even considering it. Then it popped up again in 5E.

At this point, I'm starting to think somebody on the writing team wants the Wall to exist and keeps sneaking it in.

>>51911473

This. People only think Buddhists are chill because they don't know shit about actual buddhism.

All religions have lunatics.

Hell. Look up Tibetan buddhism sometime. You will never 180 on any subject faster than 'Free Tibet' than when you find out exactly what the Dalai Llama is Dalai Llama OF.

Fuck man. The British sent people over to Tibet during their 'fuck and enslave everyone who isn't white' period, and even they were totally sickened by it all

We're talking the World Nobles from One Piece level of bad.

And when China did roll in and kick out the Monk-Kings, they went to America and lived cushy upper-class lifestyles paid entirely by the American government.

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>>51911712
>All religions have lunatics.

I wonder. Can we play D&D without gods??

>not just turning into a god-eating monstrosity that plagues the Planes and makes the gods shit themselves

I loved that ending in MotB so much.

>>51908857
TNO cant be a cleric because he allredy sold his soul, when he "dies" he dose not go to the wall, he has to fight in the blood war. Which in itself is kind of sily seeing how at the end of the game you are powerfull enough to take out high level deamons, devils and celestials

>>51911753
Yes, in most setting divine caster can get power from concept and not necessarily from gods. But as a guy who really like mythology I prefer to always have gods in my setting, it's more fun this way.

>>51911753

Dont see why not. Doesn't like, dark sun have no gods or something?

>>51911638
>You wouldn't want to be picked last, would you, berk?

What do you call someone who graduates last in his class at medical school?

Doctor. He still graduated.

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>>51911841

A walking malpractice 'suit?

>>51911894
Pretty sure he never actually graduate.

>>51911797

Depends how you define "god", but regular Gods are destroyed if they go near Athas, The Dragon is basically the next level down from being a full on god, then you have the Sorceror-Kings that rule their individual city states and who are worshipped like gods and have the Templars as Lawful Evil paladins who worship them as patron dieties.

>>51910345
The solution to the blood war is clear.
Kill every demon and devil. For good. Forever.
How? Well that's up to a sufficiently cheesy group of over powered players to find out.

>>51911903
What happens when you die in Dark Sun? Does the concept of a soul exist there?

>>51911927
Pretty sure it's impossible, demons and devils are both infinite in number.

>>51911927
> shilling so hard in favor of the gods

>>51911464
>Who would bother to worship then?
Anyone who wants cleric spells, I reckon.
Worshiping gods pays off, man. You don't benefit from it just in the afterlife, but in this life, too. In D&D, anyway.

>>51911927
>Kill all demon and devil
>yugoloths take power
Everybody always forget the yugoloths.

>>51911945
>>51911957
Well theirs enough bull shit in D&D as far as i'm aware that even infinites can be surmounted and dealt with. And theirs always GM fiat to make up new shit too if the whole campaign is about finding a means, like some ancient overgod weapon or something.

It's all make believe and fairy tale in the end, after all.

>>51911365
When "god" just means "big magic person", then refusing to worship them is a very sensible choice. Power does not equate deserved veneration, and nothing shows this clearer than the WotF. It coerces people into submission. An inexcusable evil.

If you approve of the WotF, then you approve of Winston's fate in 1984.

>>51911973
You obey a king because he can order you killed, and you obey a god because he can order you killed, after you die. Freedom is slavery.

>>51905146
Gods existing in such a real way actually makes it more unforgivable. It's like being a contentious objector to the political system. You don't want to put your vote behind any of the candidates.

>>51911988
Then what actually makes the good gods good?

I actually kinda want to make a faithless paladin or wizard who wants to become a god just to save all the other faithless from the wall.

>>51906982
I read that if you take the asshole route and eat all the things, then you can actually succeed.

>>51912022
The ultimate irony would be if nobody would worhship him after the ascension.

>>51912022
That they go out of their way to help people after death?

Like, >>51911599
points out at least one example where somebody dies and a good god accepts him even without real proof besides his dying act.

>>51912069
Pretty much.

Once you eat the spirit eater, even Kelemvor is horrified and just tells you to fuck off.

If anyone's curious, the ending in question can be found here.

https://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/Update%2055/

I'd recommend reading the whole playthrough though. mask of the Betrayer in general is pretty fantastic.

>>51911473
What's wrong with exterminating a threat to your way of life?

>>51912022
Either good and evil are simply forces of nature with no inherent meaning, like gravity, or one has to seriously re-think a lot of philosophies present in the fictional universe.

You know, with all the incredibly high wisdom/ intelligence adventurers, and even wiser/smarter superhuman creatures, there apparently hasn't been a single philosopher who questioned the underlying dehumanizing nature of monarchy/feudalism that seems ever present in fantasy settings. No golden dragon penned The Republic, no learned monk questioned why they must follow the king, who is merely the son of the previous king and not selected by his people for his ability. And once someone learns that a mere human once became a god...

In terms of meta, D&D was never meant to answer these questions. It's a simple mini-wargame imposed over a heavily fictionalized pastiche of history with added wizards and dragons.

>>51911988
Freedom to select your master is not true freedom m8.

>>51912131
Once you start involving things like the wall, you start inviting these questions. Frankly I think it's an interesting concept, though they'd probably invite scorn from a lot of the good gods for fucking up their system to ensure worship. I guess you could suggest they see it as a necessary evil to prevent the bad gods from gaining too much power compared to them and taking over, but still.

>>51911973
You neglect to mention that worshiping the gods and being extremely devout can give you cool super powers.
It literally pays off to be religious in D&D, the gods aren't just hands off 'worship me or else', it's more 'worship me and you'll get cool stuff, or else.'

>>51912206
Yeah but you can also become a god. Bane started out as a mortal adventurer.

Not sure how known that is in canon though. Probably pretty rare knowledge.

>>51912133
True freedom isn't a thing, just like Utopia. You're always bound by limitations, your very concept of reality is created by the culture where you were raised.

>>51912181
Once you involve human-like gods who can clearly state what they want, you've opened pandora's box. If you keep gods as strange alien forces that seem to exist but remain mysterious, you can avoid most of those philosophical questions, I guess.

Like, Gruumsh the orcish god of war and Coreillon could essentially be the same god-power filtered through two vastly different cultures. Orcs still kill elves in the name of their god, elves still kill orcs, their clerics get their spells but ultimately they serve the same god of war. It doesn't care whose blood gets spilled, it represents warfare and anyone who shows devotion to it, receives its boon regardless of what effigy they construct or what prayers they say.

But at that point you've basically replaced gods with concepts.

>>51912206
But that isn't having faith in anything, it's just sucking the cock of the rich guy so he invites to his party.

At their best, DnD style religions are political parties: You support the guy who you agree with or the least bad guy to prevent some asshole from gaining powers.

So Atheists are more like people who just don't want to bother with all the bullshit and live their lives.

>>51911990
>makes it more unforgivable
>more unforgivable
>more

*tips mitra*

>>51912309
Faith only exists when their is no definitive proof in the divine. Therefore faith doesn't actually exist in D&D.
So it doesn't have anything to do with faith anyway. But it is about believing your god is the best god and could kick all the other gods asses, if that's what your god wants your to believe.
And if you do that, bam, free cool shit.

Also i'd suck dick to go to rich people parties the fuck you takin about

>>51912248
>True freedom isn't a thing, just like Utopia. You're always bound by limitations, your very concept of reality is created by the culture where you were raised.

True freedom has nothing to do with cultural interpretations. In fact, you have to transcend these biases to achieve it.

>>51912309
>So Atheists are more like people who just don't want to bother with all the bullshit and live their lives.

But their after-lives are fucked because of kelemvor and the wall. Checkmate athiests.

>>51912503
>Ascend to Arboria
>Become random encounter for evil adventuring parties
>I didn't ask for this.

>>51912127
The murder of helpless women and children while pretending to be a pacifist. It isn't much the murder that's bothering me but the hypocrisy.

>>51912469
This definition of "faith" only really came about once people starting rigorously defining what knowledge means and started dismantling once dearly-held alleged "proofs" or evidence of the divine. It's more a sign of the retreat of religion from most spheres of life than anything else. The existence of gods was treated as a natural, self-evident fact of life in most religions, and so was faith.

>>51912503
Yep. That's why if you think that gods are dicks you need immortality. D&D in general supplies multiple ways and FR has some additional avenues of approach.

Sadly you need to reach at least middle levels for most of them. So 90% of population won't be able to get them.

On the other hand being a mad mage and creating a reincarnation engine that will steal souls of the dying and put them into warforged bodies may be fun.

>>51910124
Why not just invade Hell and kill everything in it? Good is defined by working together, so why not just get all your Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic Good homeys and fuck Asmodeus and whoever the demons leader is up?

>>51912628
>Why not just invade Hell
>invade hell
>get_a_load_of_this_faggot.jpg

>>51912654
You clearly never played Dwarf Fortress or Doom.

>>51912654
Invading Hell is a fun concept. It's clearly unjust, and I bet some American citizens are being held unconstitutionally in it. There is surely just cause to invade.

>>51912654
Well, the Lower Planes. Whatever. It's Hell.

But what's stopping every good-aligned planar from just getting into a massive death-ball and bowling over the evil?

Like, the whole thing that defines Evil is that it fucking hates other Evil because that Evil is wrong and gay and bad, while Good gods generally get along with some disagreement here and there.

>>51912628
Nah, invade the Abyss, and occupy its infinite layers.

Can a good kingdom be at war with another good kingdom? What about good kingdom at war with a neutral one?

>>51912628
Lawful Good has just as much in common with Lawful Evil as it does with Chaotic Good. You'd be better off uniting Good against Neutral Evil.

>>51912773
What's a "good kingdom"?

>>51912804
Good-aligned.

>>51912759
The good aligned higher planes tried to interfere in the Blood War once. It went badly. The higher planes are infinite, but the lower planes are more infinite, and it fucked up everything pretty hard.

And the Blood War of evil Law versus evil Chaos is only a footnote to the scale of the former war, which was Law versus Chaos across all the planes.

>>51912812
Who is?

>>51912813
>more infinite

>>51912628
Because evil is more numerous, so it's best to just let them stay focused on killing each other than anything important.

>>51906628
It gets worst, pre avatar crisis the power of the gods was not linked to being worshiped. Ao changed that to reform the god-mortal relationship. The wall was made well before that by Myrkul.

It is worth noting that the same group of gods has fucked done near board wipes to that world because they did not like the sarrukh or dragons ruling the place.

>>51912827
Everyone

>>51912837
Yes. It's a math thing.

>>51912837
>countably infinite
>uncountably infinite

>>51911712
>Look up Tibetan buddhism sometime

A cursory interent search didn't really turn up any of the things you were talking about. My google-fu appears weak, would you mind linking me some sources so I can read up about this subejct?

>>51910080
Drizzt is a special case due to writer fiat
He does worship mieliki as seen in how he initiates catti Brie into her worship etc
Remember he was written the year before 2nd ed came out and the writer has never bothered to retcon him to fit the rules

>>51910587

You have given an awful lot of thought to this analogy, haven't you?

>>51911426
So much this.

>>51911599
Avner wasn't from the moonshaes
He was the kid thief from the Titan of twilight series

>>51911903
They keep changing the idea there
Sometimes it was an alternate material plane, sometimes it was a closed crystal sphere
The fact they had athasian elves on one of the good plane layers and various athasian types elsewhere muddied it even more

>>51911928
Varies depending on edition
In the novels you either end up in the grey or if you can you merge with spirits of the land or elements

>>51911406

Jews don't believe that faith directly impacts how you would be judged after death. It's all the choices you make to do good things. Traditionally, Jews believe that they are judged to a higher standard than non-Jews, who don't know any better.

Christians believe that Jesus visited Hell and preached to everyone who went through life without having heard the Word. This giving them a chance to get into heaven via posthumous faith.

I don't know about Islam.

Buddhism believes that you're pretty much doomed to reincarnation whether you're a Buddhist or not.

Most faiths either don't have a believers only clause or that clause has loopholes. Believe it or not, a bunch of ignorant neckbeards on a Nepalese throat-whistling forum aren't the first people to wrestle with these issues.

>>51911988
>you should obey tyrants

>>51912993
Effectively slave castes since you are born into that caste and so don't deserve education etc

>>51912022
Nigger, they can not help you if you reject them. That's what the WotF is, rejection of all offerings. Just pick a moderate good god that doesn't ask anything if you want to save your ass from it. It's not that hard, metaphysics are dumb and easy in DnD.

>>51913523
>I don't know about Islam.
The Quran straight up says you get to go to heaven if you haven't heard the word. Allah dictates that he only punish those to whom he has sent the Messenger (Muhammad's word). If you go through life without ever knowing of Islam, you get heaven for free, even if you were a baby eating cannibal.

>>51913523
Hell isn't actually a concept in original christian theology. that's a catholic invention, just like polytheism was only brought over to christianity by misguided catholics.

The earliest roots for the hell concept are literally just a spiritual dump where your soul, unconscious, goes to wait for the messiah. That's the jewish origins.

Biblically, there isn't any support for the concept of hell: only the saved are given eternal life. The unsaved are eradicated by the fire, the smoke from their eradicated bodies and souls rising forever in the endless sky.

>>51913614
Does hearing about Islam on TV only and never anything else count as never knowing of Mohammed's word?

>>51913523
Islam is more about right actions - so right acting non Muslims can still get into heaven, however if they mixed that with extreme insulting Islam that's less likely
Also you are judged on the circumstances of your life - so a poor man donating the same as a rich man is rewarded more
Unlike the way baptists and a lot of other Christians seem to believe that just mouthing the words and turning up is enough whilst acting the opposite

>>51913624
>The unsaved are eradicated by the fire, the smoke from their eradicated bodies and souls rising forever in the endless sky.

Rising towards the Wall of the Faithless.

>>51913634
>>51913643 (me)
Rather, it counts as hearing of the message. Sorry, I missed the negative there at the end. Deleting that post.

>>51913523
>I don't know about Islam
Your actions are tallied up with everyone elses at the end of the world and god runs the numbers. If evil stacked up more points, everyone is fucked. If hood wins and you helped, your ass gets resurrected and you get to go to Super Earth 2.0: Eternal Paradise Boogaloo.
That's why they are so concerned with killing and destroying absolutely everything they perceive as blasphemy or evil, gotta make sure to get those goodness points and keep down the evil.

>>51913639
The Pope called out christians doing that on being full of shit two days ago.

>>51913545
You dare disobey the king? Off to the gallows with you, rogue!

>>51913689
> A man dressed in white robes speaks with god and tells other people how to behave.

Fucking clerics...

>>51913624
not quait, in traditional christian theology there was a hell, but people did not go there, it was just a place where all the deamons and fallen angels hung out. The jews also did not have a hell or heven, your soul went to sheol intill god decided what to do with the whole place

>>51913639
>nlike the way baptists and a lot of other Christians seem to believe that just mouthing the words and turning up is enough whilst acting the opposite

The funny part aboutthis is that the bible specifically says that's not how you're supposed to do it.

>>51913614
>>51913665
This is actually a big problem for non-muslims who want to actually learn about Islam.
Going out of your way to learn about it and then *not* converting is seen as basically spitting in their face by many muslims.

>>51913730
He could be wearing a magenta mankini and would still be right. People walking into church every sunday and doing fuck-all to follow the heart and intention of the faith are full of shit.

>>51913639
>>51913689
Sola fide is a shit theological philosophy.

>>51912993

basically after the Qing dynasty in china collapsed in 1912 Tibet was left in a state of quasi-indepedence as the qing had been fairly hands off in their rule of the region, and neither the communist nor nationalist governments had the time to assert any direct control over it.
So what was Tibet like during this period? Well it was fairly feudal; the biggest monasteries owned most of the land, which they then leased out in large chunks to non-monk nobility, who in turn either used slaves or serfs to do the work on the land - the 13th (and current) Dalai Llama did put in heavy efforts to reform the country, so by 1950 slavery was almost non-existent in Tibet and peasants had rights to private property and had title to the land they worked while they were under obligation to work it - all feudal responsibilities was also set in short term chunks, so a peasant would work a year's duties and then have the option of moving elsewhere to work under a different lord (and giving up title to the land they worked on) or becoming a commoner and defacto working for the central government on municipal projects or the beaucracy if they were literate.

>>51913740
Jews did have a heaven, but people are only allowed to visit, it's not a final resting place.
It's more like God's workstation than anything else. Moses went up there once to get the Torah.

>>51906982

It's actually somewhat embarrassing: The devs figured they would never get permission to do it, and liked the whole "fight the unwinnable fight" thing so they never even asked if they could. And this was around the time the 4th ed lore changes were getting made, when the wall went away anyways.

>>51913582
So these brave souls make the greatest sacrifice of all, to form a barrier against the worst evil at the expense of their afterlife. Surely they're great heroes, greater than the gods themselves in their valour.

>>51913947
You make a great salesman kiddo.

>>51913761
Not unless you're a wobbler
As long as you are a good person it's okay unless you end up going all Geert Wilders etc which arguably would negate being good

>>51905146
Aaaaaaand i'm reinstalling NW2.

>>51913947
If someone decides to go to the wall to protect the world, sure.
Otherwise they are just contrarian cunts and the world recycles their leftovers into something useful.

>>51913992
What's not good about being Geert Wilders though? He seems like a nice person at least.

>>51913761
Well that's very selfish of them.

>>51913669
So if Good wins but you didn't help, exactly how painful will it be for you?

>>51914200
He is basically ex colonial mixed blood
That's why he is really dark haired with brown eyes - he dyes his hair which is why in some photos it's practically white and wears blue contacts
And that's why he has oriental eyes and yellowy skin
He hates that part of himself and like most of the alt right turns that self hate outwards
He's not even that committed - when the main right wing party took on his ideas he started attacking European immigrants

>>51914252
Extremely painful.

>>51914267
What's that have to do with him not being a good guy?

>>51914217
It makes sense, in a way.
They believe that it's a self-evident truth, so once you know it, you must be actively rejecting what's right if you don't join up.
And actively rejecting righteousness is a bad thing.

>>51914291
Very narrow minded and selfish.

>>51908548
>Kill the gods

Smart.

>>51914273
Will it be even worse if I'm a big guy?

>>51914462
>Monstrous size has no intrinsic merit, unless inordinate exsanguination be considered a virtue.

The Wall of the Faithless is absolutely fucking despicable and WOTC are cowards for not letting Obsidian give you the option to tear it down.

They took it away in 4E and replaced it with limbo/the fugue plane but then fucking BROUGHT IT BACK in 5e.

The Wall's existence makes every single "Good" god that supports its existence completely unworthy of worship, and honestly the fact it's a thing at all ruins the setting for me because there should be millions of Kaelyn-like characters across the multiverse completely and utterly offended to the core of their very being that it's allowed to exist.

The Wall destroys souls. It does something even the most absolutely vile and despicable creatures of Hell would recoil at the thought of.

If you're a bad man and go to Hell, over the next few million years (exponentially shorter the more powerful you were in life, and if you were epic you're a chump for not finding a way to avoid it in the first place) you can work your way up the ranks of hellspawn with sufficient cruelty and guile.

The Wall leaves you awake, aware, and utterly helpers as you are PAINFULLY dissolved into nothingness. In a setting where souls and afterlifes exist, the destruction of a soul is literally the worst possible thing you can ever do.

Murder is bad, yeah but if you kill a guy and he spends the next trillion years fucking nymphs and frolicking in meadows because he was Chaotic Good that's hardly a bad fate you basically did him a favor in the long run.

I can't do a campaign in Forgotten Realms without eventually wanting to do degenerate epic level abuses of power in order to start slaying gods and tearing down the Wall.

>>51914509
>They took it away in 4E and replaced it with limbo/the fugue plane but then fucking BROUGHT IT BACK in 5e.
To be fair, 5E brought back a lot of things. Myrkul is back and managing the desolate afterlife, now Kelemvor is left to be the judge and only the judge.
And Myrkul's a dick.

> When atheists send their people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us.

>>51914509
>you kill a guy and he spends the next trillion years fucking nymphs and frolicking in meadows because he was Chaotic Good

You ever consider that he might get tired of it after a few millennia? Being forced to be a part of the circle is the true hell. The only way to let go of the suffering of the world is to ascend to Nirvana, and the wall is that path. Pain is just your lowly nature leaving the body.

>>51913614
Nope, as an actual ex-muslim from the mideast, I say I don't think so. Cite the passage now.

>>51914571
https://quran.com/17/15
You ain't heard the Muhammad, you get no punishment.

>>51914531
Using Eternal Rest on him in MOTB is one of the most satisfying things to do in any Obsidian game.

"A final irony... even in this..."

>>51905146
>>51907448
Atheism in a setting where gods exist is totally believable. People wouldn't be denying their existence, but their divinity. Atheists think they're impostors and there's no such thing as gods, only really powerful spirits.

Some people also consider them impostors but believe in a capital-G God who's much more grand and unknowable than a dozen assholes with humanlike want, drive and desire.

>>51914566
Fuck off Myrkul nobody's falling for your shit

>>51914610
And considering that the setting does have a super-god maybe they're not wrong.

You don't go around worshiping an Elder Earth Elemental or a demon just because they're magical and can fuck you up, why worship these "low" gods? Go all the way to the top of the totem pole.

>>51914642
Ao is just an unmoved mover, he's not anything worth thinking about. It'd be like a book worshiping a pen.

>>51911172
Nigga cut it with this Stretch Armstrong reaching bullshit and take your Dawkins's dick-sucking #WOKE ass somewhere else.

>>51914735
Ever heard of deism?

>>51914744
Dick Dorkins is a heathen and religion has its very rightful place in the world. Commoners need to be thankful for their lives, for they are only allowed to exist through the overflowing kindness of the monarch and god.

If you don't have god to tell you to stay in your place, there's only anarchy and destruction.

>>51914598
Dude, you misunderstood it. It's taking about before the days of Muhammed when every people got their own messenger. Muhammed is now the final messenger and he is for all mankind. He already imparted his word. If you don't follow him regardless of your excuse, you are going to hell.

>>51914533
It's so true. Just imagine the kinds of people that can remain atheists in D&D settings. They not only must be able to tell the good gods to fuck off but also to crush all the demons/devils and other evil stuff that normally needs divine help to beat.

Badass but also crazy.

>>51914914
If you haven't heard of Muhammad, you still haven't got the message, though.
It doesn't apply to anyone who has ever heard the name "Muhammad" or the word "Islam", obviously. In that case the message has brushed against you and it's on you to get the full story/convert. It's only for completely untouched savages.

>>51910155
Did the priests of Leira and Bhaal buy their outfits from the same thrift shop?

>>51914744
If you are going to post nonsense at least get the stereotypes right.

Being a Dawkins tier atheist has nothing to do with the morons who believe in the whole 'woke' nonsense.

>>51914509
Well in DnD, when you die you don't really stay yourself. You become a Petitioner on your plane, working to merge with the plane itself.

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>>51912628
Because good has the double responsibility of fighting evil AND keep the universe a decent place to live. Evil has the benefit of just not giving a shit about their charges so they can wage as much war as they want.
For the forces of good an invasion of hell would probably draw too much attention away from their normal duties and throw the mortal world out of wack.

Why is Helm so unpopular in the realms, when the idiotic goddess of magic keeps getting herself killed and fucking everything up.

>>51905146
Probably not. If you were any good in life, Good Gods would actively scout your soul and offer you last minute conversion so may escape that terrible fate.

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Was Bishop irreligious, or not religious enough?

You'd think as a hunter, he'd worship Malar

>>51914509
5e is basically just a retcon of all of 4e's good ideas (both mechanic and fluff) because 3.pf faggots complained that 4e was too different.

>>51905146
I just have my character work like
>"I just travel and try not to be an asshole. Deities? They can do whatever, so long as they at least have the decency to let me know when and why they're interfering in my business. Not like I could stop them, but some courtesy would be nice."
Then GM made him meet a god's avatar, they had a nice casual conversation about careers and whatnot. It was funny watching the devout/"employees" in the party try to say "watch your fucking mouth asshole this is god-damn divinity you're cursing at show, some respect" in the least hostile way possible. Then my guy turns to them and says something along the lines of "I am showing respect, I'm treating them like I would any other person. I'm not going to treat them differently because they're not like us. Besides, they're a god, if they have a problem with what I'm saying I'm sure they don't need you to tell it to me."

>>51917243
>anon gets smote 5 minutes later

>>51915907
Killing mystra fucked up a lot of stuff
His priests have tended to go on the LE side - Maztica, his involvement with the moonshae plot
Generally they act like the Catholic Spanish conquistadors

>>51918122

It was Mystra's fault for getting herself killed, she tried to steal the tablets

>>51905146
Imagine if everyone who died had their body/ashes interred in the cemetery associated with the political party they were registered members of. Democrats go here, Republicans there, Libertarians in this plot... oh wait, you're not registered with anyone? Well then after you die they throw your body in a trash-heap and anybody who acknowledges you existed gets taken by the government and tortured for five years. Why? Because freedom isn't free, apparently.

>>51911346
>This fixes it completely.
No it doesn't. It still describes the imposition of punishments that *no one* deserves. *No one* deserves to have their soul turned into a larva or put into a wall to be painfully dissolved, just like no one deserves to go to Hell.

>>51918285
I dunno, bro. Being Faithless is pretty rotten.

>>51905146
It's a clear violation of the NAP

>>51918285

People like Necromancers and mass-murderers deserve getting turned into larva and being devoured by more powerful creatures than they are.

>>51918285
>No one deserves to go to Hell

LE people do, because that's how the universe works. Don't try and drag your out-of-context utilitarian arguments for why even one person going to Hell outweighs all the good in the universe or whatever: that's trying to apply one context's morality to an entirely different context.

>>51918285
>no one deserves to go to Hell.
says who

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>>51905146
>using souls to fuel their defense
sure sounds like those gods need a good pummelling.

>>51919173
honestly, a good pummelling could solve 99% of the problems with the setting, including the blood war.

>>51912628
That was tried and both sides of the blood war joined together to tell the heavens to fuck off.

>>51919248
sounds like good are pussies.
Do some squatz, then try again.

>>51912628
>Let's break an eternal stalemate by charging in and slaughtering both sides
>What could possibly go wrong

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>>51912701
>he hasn't read the human defense corp.

the end of the run has them the military invading a pocket of hell via the river styx to retrieve captured soldiers. Charon gets run over by an amphibious aircraft, its great.

>>51911457

Sune, CN and yeah probably

>>51918652
Different person here, I object to things like hell as its a infinite punishment' if they say destroyed souls than I could see hte justification but not just mass murder, a punishment of a few thousand years would suffice that and both hells allow a bad person to get up in the ladder and continue on with there evil desires.

>>51911383
So 4e didn't actually solve the essential problem behind the Wall, it just removed the Wall itself?

>>51911406
>How is this any different than Christianity, Islam, or jewishness?
It isn't. The Wall of the Faithless is the D&D equivalent of "Worship Jesus or burn in Hell." Anyone who defends it should also defend real-world fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists.

>I bet most of you guys are Xitan and okay with it.
I'm not. I'm more of a "spiritual but not religious" type. And if near-death experiences are anything to go by, God doesn't send anyone to Hell.

>>51911437
If by "chill" you mean "pretentious", then yes.

>>51911457
I'd rather fuck a Priestess of Sune while a Priestess of Sharess watches (for five seconds, before joining in).

>>51911483
>Are you expecting someone else to save/free/reward you even if you have never seen him/her/it?
But it's okay for someone else to condemn/imprison/torture you even if you've never seen him/her/it?

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>>51910155
>Waifu tier
Mystra, Silvanus, Corellon, Lathander, Akadi
>Fuckable Tier
Selune, Sune, Lliiera, Miellikie
>Don't stick your dick in crazy tier
Loviatar, Beshaba, Auril, Shar, Umberlee, Iyachtu Xvim
>QT bookworm tier
Oghma
>Literally Shit
Everything else

>>51911955
Only for player characters or NPCs with class levels, which are about five percent of the total population.

>>51912091
A person like that wouldn't *want* worship.

>>51908745
"Heaven for the weather, Wall for the people."
"Better to reign in Wall than serve in Heaven."

>>51919862
Awesome! Let's get Sunni up in these bitches!

>>51912516
>The murder of helpless women and children
But it's okay to murder as many helpless men as you want?

Again, the wall exists for a reason. The Blood War. If unclaimed souls weren't contained, the lower planes would claim them. If the wall wasn't there to protect the Grey city, the lower planes would attack it. People who worship their diety but aren't wanted aren't sent to the wall - they're called the False and remain in the grey city in a district chosen by their alignment. So all the LG people hang together, all the CE people hang together, etc. This works out about as well for evil people as you'd imagine.

Finally, what happens to souls in the wall is not very different from what happens to souls who go to their dieties realms. Petitioners fade away and become a part of their patrons plane all the time. The weak willed literally become brick walls or trees and shit in Celestia. This is in fact what happens to the majority who don't reincarnate. The strong willed or favoured keep their minds and may become lantern archons, or reincarnate. The difference is its much more pleasant than the emptiness and despair of the wall

FR afterlife in general is shit, why do you think lichdom gets so popular with wizards?

>>51912618
>On the other hand being a mad mage and creating a reincarnation engine that will steal souls of the dying and put them into warforged bodies may be fun.
Until they turn against you and kill you for imprisoning them and turning them into mechanical, inhuman abominations.

>>51921041
>Sune not in waifu tier
She's basically the goddess of waifus and husbandos.

And Sharess should at least be in the fuckable tier. Waifu tier might not make sense because she isn't really into monogamy.

>>51921196
So basically, decent people always get fucked over, while evil pricks get to be evil forever and with impunity. What a shit setting.

>>51921401
Talking about the priests, not the gods

Sharessan cleric doesn't appear in that image

Shar and Sharess are not the same thing

>>51921496
Well, no, evil pricks tend to get tortured for all eternity, or are forced to spend eternity with other evil pricks and surprise: that is unpleasant.

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>>51910155
>Priest of Bane

>>51914735
Ao answered a prayer once.

Only once, mind you, and it was pretty clear that it was an exception, but he was really impressed by what the guy praying asked for.

>>51921523
My mistake. I didn't realize you were talking about that pic. I thought you were just talking about it in general.

I am aware that Shar and Sharess are not the same, though.

>>51905146
Checkmate, atheists.

OP, the problem with the Wall of the Faithless is that it's in a setting of a game where the guys supporting it are supposedly the highest paragons of good in an alignment system where good is supposed to be rooted in compassion and altruism, yet are supporting something that seems first and foremost to be a device of horrific coercion that serves no function beyond gratifying the ego of these supposed paragons of good.

>>51910246
Yeah it's the gm.

>>51911365
But they don't fucking do anything. Why would you worship them?

>>51925293

>
>>51914757

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>>51905146
And then we call the liches evil for wanting immortality.

What are other forms of immortality that don't depend on the gods? I aware of only the clone spell.

>>51905146
>Wall, big deal?
Not if you're a lich.

And if you're faithless, several gods also send recruiters for spirits. If you go to the wall you're either unlucky, hated, or chose it.

Assuming you didn't get nabbed by demons before you got to the wall.

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>>51910928
You forget that peasants aren't metagaming players with comprehensive knowledge of all the gods and pantheons of the setting. Their values will be based on their surroundings.

Besides, Chauntea isn't the goddess of farmers, she's the goddess of the soil itself. Farmers don't pray to her because "man, I sure love tilling", but because they see her as the reason they and their families don't starve to death.

>>51916079
Bishop was too full of nihilism, self-loathing and spite to want to worship a deity, even one that'd let him kill people for kicks.